Why Jennifer Lien left Voyager.
Patrick D. Rockwell
I'm posting this for a friend who posted it himself on a few other
newsgroups.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sai Wong writes ...
Hello Everyone,
I attended the Con Rad convention this weekend in Seattle.
Richard Arnold was a guest, so in his Q & A session I asked him about
Jennifer Lien's
departure to see if I could gleen any more information which I did not
have
already.
Richard strongly pointed out that Jennifer's departure was nothing to do
with the actress
and that all the rumors about drug, acolhol or not getting along with
other
cast members
are absoluley FALSE. Nothing could be further from the truth, Jennifer
is a
very shy
and sweet person said Richard Arnold.
He said that the Powers that Be were concerned about the shows ratings
for
the 18-35 year old MALE viewers and wanted to increase the sexual
quotient
of the show. This was the MOST IMPORTANT factor concerning the cast
change.
Their decision was to get rid of one of the characters and replace it
with a
new sexy
character.
Kes was chosen because the writers had written themselves into a corner
with
her,
(such as the Ocampan lifespan) and did not know what to do with the
character.
Richard Arnold again highlighted that it was nothing to do with the
actress
but the
need to get higher ratings by replacing an existing character with a new
sexy one.
After the Q & A session I talked to Richard again in the dealers room
(Richard by the way was selling his trading cards).
I asked him about the official statement that Kes's departure was a
mutual
decision
between Paramount and Jennifer Lien. Richard said this was FALSE.
Jennifer had no idea she was to leave the show. Jennifer was the
innocent
victim
of the ratings war.
Richard Arnold could understand the dismissal of Gate's McFadden after
the
first season of TNG because their were "problems" but could not
understand
the
dismissal of Jennifer Lien because she did no wrong.
When Jennifer was told she was to leave the show she burst into tears,
Kate Mulgrew also burst into tears. She was very sorry to see Jennifer
go.
When the other cast members were informed of the news they were extremly
angry
at the decision.
I asked Richard about the actors contract with the show and the level of
protection
actors have to unfair dismissal. Richard said that they had no
protection at
all.
However, if an actor wanted to leave the show they would have to seek
permission
to to written out of their contract. So everything is very one-sided.
I asked Richard why they couldn't just get better writers to improve
ratings.
Richard said that that would be a long term solution but they wanted
better
ratings NOW.
They wanted a quick fix at a lower budget. (Jeri Ryan is not being paid
as
much
because this is only her first year on the show)
I informed Richard of the letter writing campaign to bring back Jennifer
Lien.
Richard said that he did not know about the campaign because he does not
surf the web
but he was all for the campaign and he hopes it makes some "noise".
Richard did ask me who I instructed people to write letters to and I
said
Jeri Taylor.
He said this was good because Jeri is one of the few people who still
listen
to the fans.
> Sai
> (Founder of K.I.S.S. "Kes Internet Support Society")
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/2888/kiss.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kes was my favorite character and just about the only reason that I
watched Voyager. The more that I learn about why she left and the kinds
of decisions that are being made by the leadership of the Star Trek
franchise, the more disturbed that I become. I hope that you'll visit
the
above URL at the end of Sai's message. :-)
--
Patrick D. Rockwell
mailto://proc...@thegrid.net
mailto://HNH...@prodigy.com
mailto://patri...@aol.com
Leslie Samchuk
Ok, I deleted all the stuff about Jennifer Lien being kicked out to make
room for a new, sexy 7 of 9..no need to repeat it. It seems to me that
most of the people on this group are male so I'm sure people will disagree
with me...but doesn't anyone else find it terribly annoying and pathetic
that Star Trek has to resort to such Ferengi (ha ha, sorry, couldn't
resist) tactics to sell the show...and sexist ones at that. I always
believed that if a show had enough quality writing and acting that they
didn't need to stoop to this kind of standard. I love Voyager (DS9 is
better though) and I actually really like Janeway (am I the only one?) and
I like 7 of 9 (besides a few technical details like how she seemed to
"humanize" so quickly - they lost a fascinating story line by making her
adjust so quickly...and now she seems to be regressing...I don't get
it...must be because they realized they were losing that interesting
aspect). But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
get? What a cop-out!
Les
Klyfix
In article <65o1li$j1n$1...@flint.sentex.net>, Leslie Samchuk
<l...@granite.sentex.net> writes:
> It seems to me that
most of the people on this group are male so I'm sure
>people will disagree
with me...but doesn't anyone else find it terribly
>annoying and pathetic
that Star Trek has to resort to such Ferengi (ha ha,
>sorry, couldn't
resist) tactics to sell the show...and sexist ones at that.
>I always
believed that if a show had enough quality writing and acting that
>they
didn't need to stoop to this kind of standard.
Well, this here male agrees that adding a character for pure sex appeal
reasons is not a good thing and that they _should_ be trying to improve their
writing quality instead. On the other hand, Jeri Ryan does a pretty good job as
Seven; she's not a bad actress and the character concept and execution is
better than I could have hoped. Heck, Kes was a _boring_ character IMHO; 7 of 9
is far more interesting. Still, it would be nice if they elected to actually
costume her rationally; it makes little sense for her to be in that corset
thing.
V.S. Greene : kly...@aol.con : Boston, near Arkham...
Pat
Sorry to ask but who is Richard Arnold?
Patrick D. Rockwell wrote in message <347F59...@thegrid.net>...
Scott Gallimore
Recent discussions about Jennifer Lien have prompted the following
question. Why was Gate's McFadden dismissed after the first season
of TNG?
Captain Infinity
In article <34805...@vnet.ibm.com>
Scott Gallimore <scott_g...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote :
>Recent discussions about Jennifer Lien have prompted the following
>question. Why was Gate's McFadden dismissed after the first season
>of TNG?
So they could spice it up with that super-sexy android, Diana Muldaur.
**
Captain Infinity
Franklin Hummel
In article <34805...@vnet.ibm.com>,
Scott Gallimore <scott_g...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>Recent discussions about Jennifer Lien have prompted the following
>question. Why was Gate's McFadden dismissed after the first season
>of TNG?
"Gate's"????
Does Gate own a McFadden?
(Normally I let these things go, but this one is too silly.)
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 4th Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
August 1999, Providence, RI * Guests: Fred Chappell & T.E.D. Klein
Visit our web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Franklin Hummel
In article <65pkl1$4r...@spock.tinet.ie>, Pat <bur...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>Sorry to ask but who is Richard Arnold?
David Hines
Umm.. minor point: Richard Arnold, who has not been connected to
Trek in any capacity since Gene Roddenberry died and Paramount
sent Arnold packing, is not a credible source by any stretch of
the imagination. Putting it kindly, he's a BSer. Putting it
truthfully, he's been caught in outright lies on a number of
occasions, and in fact continues to lie boldfacedly in pathetic
attempts to besmirch the reputation of Diane Duane, and others.
Whether he's lying again to perpetuate his false image of being
a Trek "insider," or has valid information, I don't know. But
based on past experiance, I'd doubt it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| David Hines d-h...@uchicago.edu |
| http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/dzhines |
====================================================================
Ford A. Thaxton
Franklin Hummel wrote:
>
> In article <65pkl1$4r...@spock.tinet.ie>, Pat <bur...@tinet.ie> wrote:
> >Sorry to ask but who is Richard Arnold?
>
>
> A twit.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
WOW, Frank that added so much to the discussion.
Is this the kind of stuff you come up with when you sit home alone on
Saturdays nights by the choice of others?
Regards
Ford A. Thaxton
Robin Stone
But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
> 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
> get? What a cop-out!
I agree. But I think it might be more than that. Perhaps it was the
character they were unhappy with because Jennifer Lien is VERY
attractive all by herself. In any case, why did they have to get rid of
her . . . just add a new character.
Robin
John & Linda VanSickle
Heck, they could have had the Borg assimilate her, get her de-assimilated
later, and have basically the same character who isn't going to be gone
in a couple of years.
--
"It wasn't my fault--in a way I haven't totally figured out yet."
http://www.erols.com/vansickl
Travers Naran
Scott Gallimore (scott_g...@vnet.ibm.com) pontificated:
> Recent discussions about Jennifer Lien have prompted the following
> question. Why was Gate's McFadden dismissed after the first season
> of TNG?
Stories vary. One, some or all of the following stories may be false:
- Ratings sucked
- Roddenberry didn't like Gates McFadden on a personal level
- Roddenberry grew disappointed with GM's character, Dr. Crusher
- Paramount ordered it (Yeah, right!)
- Gates McFadden was fighting for a better role and they found it
easier to fire her than give in to her demands.
The Roddenberry-McFadden dispute is the oft repeated one.
Travers Naran
Ford A. Thaxton (for...@earthlink.net) pontificated:
Quit projecting, Ford.
Just because you set home alone by the choices of others doesn't mean
everyone else gets treated the same way.
Franklin Hummel
>Ford A. Thaxton (for...@earthlink.net) pontificated:
>> Franklin Hummel wrote:
>> > In article <65pkl1$4r...@spock.tinet.ie>, Pat <bur...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>> > >Sorry to ask but who is Richard Arnold?
>> >
>> > A twit.
>> >
That was the short version, FordaT. What I could dig out of my
files on Richard Arnold would take a lot, lot longer to write up and I
just wasn't in the mood to bother, especially for a waste of time like
Richard Arnold.
Besides which, David Hines did a good job of confirming in more
detail what I wrote.
>> Is this the kind of stuff you come up with when you sit home alone on
>> Saturdays nights by the choice of others?
My clubbing nights have been over for a good many years now,
FordaT. I've had a Significant Other whom I lived with for going on 7
years now.
Sorry, FordaT, I am just no longer available. Don't be too
disappointed; maybe there is someone out there for even the likes of you.
Franklin Hummel
>Ford A. Thaxton (for...@earthlink.net) pontificated:
>> Franklin Hummel wrote:
>> > In article <65pkl1$4r...@spock.tinet.ie>, Pat <bur...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>> > >Sorry to ask but who is Richard Arnold?
>> >
>> > A twit.
>> >
>> WOW, Frank that added so much to the discussion.
That was the short version, FordaT. What I could dig out of my
files on Richard Arnold would take a lot longer to write up and I just
wasn't in the mood to bother, especially for a waste of time like Richard
Arnold.
Besides which, David Hines did a good job of confirming in more
detail what I wrote.
>> Is this the kind of stuff you come up with when you sit home alone on
>> Saturdays nights by the choice of others?
My clubbing nights have been over for a good many years now,
FordaT. I've had a Significant Other with whom I have lived now for
going on 7 years.
David Johnston
Robin Stone wrote:
>
> But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
> > 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
> > get? What a cop-out!
>
> I agree. But I think it might be more than that. Perhaps it was the
> character they were unhappy with because Jennifer Lien is VERY
> attractive all by herself. In any case, why did they have to get rid of
> her . . . just add a new character.
>
That assumes that Jennifer Lien would be prepared to accept an
even smaller part when she was disatisfied with the one she already
had.
tko...@well.com
> - Ratings sucked
> - Roddenberry didn't like Gates McFadden on a personal level
> - Roddenberry grew disappointed with GM's character, Dr. Crusher
> - Paramount ordered it (Yeah, right!)
> - Gates McFadden was fighting for a better role and they found it
> easier to fire her than give in to her demands.
>The Roddenberry-McFadden dispute is the oft repeated one.
Or the one I heard: She was not a very experienced actor, with her
background mostly in dance. She apparently drove the directors and
crew crazy by frequently "missing her mark" - the place where she was
to stand so that all the shots and lighting would work out....
str...@glasscity.net
Wasent the Kes going to die of old age in only another season or two?
I for one wouddent really care to watch a bunch of sad stories and
sub plots about how the crew was going to miss her........how sad they
all would be.......o i'm gitting all chocked up thinking about
it.....(NOT)
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:00:22 -0800, John & Linda VanSickle
<vans...@erols.com> wrote:
>Robin Stone wrote:
>>
>> But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
>> > 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
>> > get? What a cop-out!
>>
>> I agree. But I think it might be more than that. Perhaps it was the
>> character they were unhappy with because Jennifer Lien is VERY
>> attractive all by herself. In any case, why did they have to get rid of
>> her . . . just add a new character.
>
Armeegi
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> Wasent the Kes going to die of old age in only another season or two?
[snip]
Originally, when the writers made the change to the Kess character, I had
thought that was so, if the show extended beyond her lifespan, they could
blame her *not* dying on her transformation
--
arm...@hotmail.com (the reply address is bogus, to E-mail me click here)
"charcter is what you are in the dark"
Dr Emilio Lazardo
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">> Wasent the Kes going to die of old =
age in only another season or two? <br>[snip]<br><br>Originally, when =
<font size=3D2>the writers made the change to the Kess character, <font =
size=3D2>I had thought that was so, if the show extended beyond her =
lifespan, they could blame her *not* dying on her transformation<br>-- =
<br><br><br>arm...@hotmail.com (the reply address is bogus, to =
E-mail me click here)<br><br>"charcter is what you are in the =
dark"<br>Dr Emilio Lazardo</p>
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Franklin Hummel
In article <65v455$i1l$1...@was.hooked.net>, <tko...@well.com> wrote:
>
>Or the one I heard: She was not a very experienced actor, with her
>background mostly in dance. She apparently drove the directors and
>crew crazy by frequently "missing her mark" - the place where she was
>to stand so that all the shots and lighting would work out....
This seems an odd problem for a -dancer- to have.
Travers Naran
tko...@well.com pontificated:
>
> > - Ratings sucked
> > - Roddenberry didn't like Gates McFadden on a personal level
> > - Roddenberry grew disappointed with GM's character, Dr. Crusher
> > - Paramount ordered it (Yeah, right!)
> > - Gates McFadden was fighting for a better role and they found it
> > easier to fire her than give in to her demands.
>
> >The Roddenberry-McFadden dispute is the oft repeated one.
>
> background mostly in dance. She apparently drove the directors and
> crew crazy by frequently "missing her mark" - the place where she was
> to stand so that all the shots and lighting would work out....
This sounds like the hallmark of a Roddenberry lie...
As a professional dancer, high-belted martial artist, choreographer
and all around competent person, this sounds *highly* suspect...
The Hallmark of a Roddenberry lie is to encourage others (and himself)
to repeat a story which massively contradicts known facts.
I could believe it if she was having problems with her lines or
acting, but missing her mark!? You've got to be kidding...
Patrick D. Rockwell
str...@glasscity.net wrote:
>
> Wasent the Kes going to die of old age in only another season or two?
> sub plots about how the crew was going to miss her........how sad they
> all would be.......o i'm gitting all chocked up thinking about
> it.....(NOT)
>
> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:00:22 -0800, John & Linda VanSickle
> <vans...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Robin Stone wrote:
> >>
> >> But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
> >> > 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
> >> > get? What a cop-out!
> >>
> >> I agree. But I think it might be more than that. Perhaps it was the
> >> character they were unhappy with because Jennifer Lien is VERY
> >> attractive all by herself. In any case, why did they have to get rid of
> >> her . . . just add a new character.
> >
> >Heck, they could have had the Borg assimilate her, get her de-assimilated
> >later, and have basically the same character who isn't going to be gone
> >in a couple of years.
Not necessarily. In sci-fi, you can find your way around things like
that. After all, they gave the doctor the ability to leave sick bay,
didn't they? I hear that UPN was actually thinking of doing a show
where Kes gets her life extended. There was already an episode where
they found some space traveling Ocampans who lived for as long as 20
years.
mco...@earthlink.net
Maureen Goldman wrote:
>
> str...@glasscity.net wrote:
>
> > Wasent the Kes going to die of old age in only another season or two?
> > I for one wouddent really care to watch a bunch of sad stories and
> > sub plots about how the crew was going to miss her........how sad they
> > all would be.......o i'm gitting all chocked up thinking about
> > it.....(NOT)
>
> have lasted out the most optimistic estimate of the length of the
> series.
My opinion on why Jennifer Lien left the show is maybe she wanted to
for film reasons. As a general rule due to demographics, and that aging
and facial blemishes show up much easier on the big screen, feature
films is the realm of younger actors, especialy for women, getting leads
virtualy dissapears after 30. TV is often where film actors "retire" to.
Jonathan Caspian
> My opinion on why Jennifer Lien left the show is maybe she wanted to
>for film reasons. As a general rule due to demographics, and that aging
>and facial blemishes show up much easier on the big screen, feature
>films is the realm of younger actors, especialy for women, getting leads
>virtualy dissapears after 30. TV is often where film actors "retire" to.
This person - out of EVERYONE who replied to the group - was the ONLY one
who even came close regarding why Jennifer Lien left the show....
Did anyone out there - yes all of you who know the episode names - who know
who wrote what and which producers were the creative force behind what
episodes and all that other nonsense - did ANY of you notice the
interaction between the actors during the end of the last season and the
beginnig of this one???? (i.e. - Kes's transformation) ?? Look... if you
study people long enough and their unconscious body-language , NO amount of
acting can cover up when people are simply not happy working together on a
set! Look ...if you don't believe me - well then ... why was there no
adequate explanation given for Kes and Neelix ending their relationship? It
was suddenly written out of the script ... now - for those of you that
follow the pablum that Paramount feeds to trekkers, I imagine they might've
said something regarding this via a studio press release or some other such
dis-information ... but for God's sake - wasn't it curious that these two
actors weren't even seen in many scenes together at all in most of last
season?? If you really want to see what I'm talking about - watch the
season opener again ....
.... take a close look at how Jennifer Lien almost grimaces while she spits
out the words "I love you Neelix" during that one final "loose-end" scene
they needed to tie up regarding the relationship they did in fact have at
one time (it would've seemed to odd had they gotten rid of Kes without
saying anything ... but look at how horrid the scene was ... it was almost
2-dimensional). The friction between these two actors was almost measurable
on the Richter Scale.
Who knows why? I haven't the slightest idea ... it could be number of
things ... like the person above stated - she may want a film career and
thus, might've considered herself a prima-donna' compared to the others.
It could've been that who-ever the actor is that plays Neelix (I forget his
name ..sorry folks - the shows stories and characters are MUCH more
interesting to me than the actors and people behind the scenes) may have
come-on to Lien and she didn't return the feelings - thus creating a lot of
touchy situations on the set.
Well ...I think I've wrote enough ... but , without sounding too critical, I
think it would do a lot of you good to go out and experience the reality of
why people do what they do in the real world.
J.
Chris
Jonathan Caspian wrote:
>
I snipped everything except the following which is really the crux of
Jonathan's post...
> Who knows why? I haven't the slightest idea ...
[snippage of more irrelevant stuff]
> Well ...I think I've wrote enough ... but , without sounding too critical, I
> think it would do a lot of you good to go out and experience the reality of
> why people do what they do in the real world.
>
> J.
Spoken like a true moron.
Gerald Hodge
"mco...@earthlink.net" <mco...@earthlink.net> writes: > Maureen Goldman wrote:
> >
> > str...@glasscity.net wrote:
> >
> > > Wasent the Kes going to die of old age in only another season or two?
> > > I for one wouddent really care to watch a bunch of sad stories and
> > > sub plots about how the crew was going to miss her........how sad they
> > > all would be.......o i'm gitting all chocked up thinking about
> > > it.....(NOT)
> >
> > The Ocampan lifespan was some nine years, as I recall. Kes should
> > have lasted out the most optimistic estimate of the length of the
> > series.
>
>
> for film reasons. As a general rule due to demographics, and that aging
> and facial blemishes show up much easier on the big screen, feature
> films is the realm of younger actors, especialy for women, getting leads
> virtualy dissapears after 30. TV is often where film actors "retire" to.
Excuse me! It is no big secret that Jennifer Lien was FIRED. F-I-R-E-D, I repeat.
Captain Infinity
In article <66283t$5sg$1...@winter.news.erols.com>
"Jonathan Caspian" <jcas...@erols.com> wrote :
>> My opinion on why Jennifer Lien left the show is maybe she wanted to
>>for film reasons. As a general rule due to demographics, and that aging
>>and facial blemishes show up much easier on the big screen, feature
>>films is the realm of younger actors, especialy for women, getting leads
>>virtualy dissapears after 30. TV is often where film actors "retire" to.
>
>Well ...I think I've wrote enough ... but , without sounding too critical, I
>think it would do a lot of you good to go out and experience the reality of
>why people do what they do in the real world.
>
>J.
>
Now this...*this*...is a well crafted troll. Bravo!
I love the delicate *little* touches, the hooks:
>This person - out of EVERYONE who replied to the group - was the ONLY one
A wonderful subtle insult, no overt flamage but still designed to annoy.
>yes all of you who know the episode names
A marvelous "Trekkie" bash
>follow the pablum that Paramount feeds to trekkers
A Paramount AND a Trekkie bash
>look at how horrid the scene was ... it was almost
>2-dimensional
The "stupidity" troll, fishing for someone to point out that TV *is* 2D.
>The friction between these two actors was almost measurable
>on the Richter Scale.
The often seen "mis-information" troll tactic, fishing for correction as to
what the Richter Scale measures.
>Who knows why? I haven't the slightest idea
The "Ignorance" tactic, fishing for someone to educate him.
>who-ever the actor is that plays Neelix (I forget his
>name ..sorry folks
Fantastic! A combined "ignorance" tactic wrapped up in a sublimely subtle
troll for "Trekkies"
And the whole final paragraph is a masterpiece:
>Well ...I think I've wrote enough ... but , without sounding too critical, I
>think it would do a lot of you good to go out and experience the reality of
>why people do what they do in the real world.
Wow. Impressive. This is one to keep, and use as a hallmark for all
trolls to follow. Again...Bravo!
**
Captain Infinity
not...@umich.edu
In article <65o1li$j1n$1...@flint.sentex.net>, Leslie Samchuk
<l...@granite.sentex.net> wrote:
> Ok, I deleted all the stuff about Jennifer Lien being kicked out to make
> room for a new, sexy 7 of 9..no need to repeat it. It seems to me that
> most of the people on this group are male so I'm sure people will disagree
> with me...but doesn't anyone else find it terribly annoying and pathetic
> that Star Trek has to resort to such Ferengi (ha ha, sorry, couldn't
> resist) tactics to sell the show...and sexist ones at that. I always
> believed that if a show had enough quality writing and acting that they
> didn't need to stoop to this kind of standard. I love Voyager (DS9 is
> better though) and I actually really like Janeway (am I the only one?) and
> I like 7 of 9 (besides a few technical details like how she seemed to
> "humanize" so quickly - they lost a fascinating story line by making her
> adjust so quickly...and now she seems to be regressing...I don't get
> it...must be because they realized they were losing that interesting
> aspect). But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
> 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
> get? What a cop-out!
Leslie--Two counterpoints:
First, 7 is pretty, but she has far from a perfect body. Her breasts are
outrageous (although I would swear they've actually gotten smaller since
she first joined the show). And although the horomone-driven boys that
populate this newsgroup think that makes her better looking, you have to
keep in mind who we're dealing with here. Only males with an adolescent
mentality think that bigger is universally better or that they need to
drool and hoot over every attractive woman they see.
Second, 7 is a good actress, too, with a track record. She's not only on
the show for her body, although producers have certainly done a good
enough job making everyone pay attention to her body. The fact is, Jeri
Ryan has the potential to draw people who like good acting (even those who
abhor sexism) and people who just like looking at Jeri Ryan. This was one
good way to dig the series out of a pit.
Remember, too, that 7 is not exactly setting a precedent. Kes didn't
exactly wear your standard wardrobe. And remember how Counselor Troi
always dressed in low-cut bodysuits in TNG? Remember how *all* the women
in TOS wore high-heeled boots and mini-skirts?
A series created by a man, produced mainly by men, and written for men (a
large proportion of which is probably teenagers) is bound to have plenty
of sexism. And ST has always had more than its fair share.
I'm glad another woman finally made herself known!
Ed Dravecky III
not...@umich.edu (not...@umich.edu) wrote:
> A series created by a man, produced mainly by men, and written for men (a
> large proportion of which is probably teenagers) is bound to have plenty
> of sexism. And ST has always had more than its fair share.
Um, I doubt Jeri Taylor would want you to think she's a MAN...
--
Ed Dravecky III <*> Dallas
dsheldon(at)netcom(dot)com
David Johnston
> In article <65o1li$j1n$1...@flint.sentex.net>, Leslie Samchuk
> <l...@granite.sentex.net> wrote:
>
> > Ok, I deleted all the stuff about Jennifer Lien being kicked out to make
> > room for a new, sexy 7 of 9..no need to repeat it. It seems to me
Particularly since it's not true. Jennifer Lien left because she
had a very marginal part that wasn't going to get better.
that
> > most of the people on this group are male so I'm sure people will disagree
> > with me...but doesn't anyone else find it terribly annoying and pathetic
> > that Star Trek has to resort to such Ferengi (ha ha, sorry, couldn't
> > resist) tactics to sell the show...and sexist ones at that. I always
> > believed that if a show had enough quality writing and acting that they
> > didn't need to stoop to this kind of standard. I love Voyager (DS9
I do not believe that Voyager did have "enough" quality writing and
acting.
is
> > better though) and I actually really like Janeway (am I the only one?) and
I don't mind her actor's performance. I'm not fond of a lot of
her tactical and strategic choices.
> > I like 7 of 9 (besides a few technical details like how she seemed to
> > "humanize" so quickly - they lost a fascinating story line by making her
> > adjust so quickly...and now she seems to be regressing...I don't get
> > it...must be because they realized they were losing that interesting
> > aspect). But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
> > 9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
> > get? What a cop-out!
I'd assume she's on the show because the Borg Queen was a big hit.
She has, however, joined the Doctor at the top of my preferred Voyager
character list. She's arrogant, intelligent, and generally fun to
listen to.
not...@umich.edu
In article <dsheldonE...@netcom.com>, dshe...@netcom.com (Ed
Dravecky III) wrote:
I seriously doubt Jeri Taylor has any say in costuming.
I did say MAINLY by men, anyway, which is my entire point.
In a group of 10 people, nine of them men, Jeri Taylor's opinion would
hold absolutely no sway, even if she thought the costuming was sexist.
First, the men would say she was just being jealous. And second, all the
boys would whine about it. Not to mention the fact that all the other men
on the set wouldn't get to watch her walk around in a catsuit during
rehearsals...
David Patrick
Gerald Hodge <ha...@mail.comox.island.net> wrote:
>"mco...@earthlink.net" <mco...@earthlink.net> writes: > Maureen Goldman wrote:
>
>> My opinion on why Jennifer Lien left the show is maybe she wanted to
>> for film reasons. As a general rule due to demographics, and that aging
>> and facial blemishes show up much easier on the big screen, feature
>> films is the realm of younger actors, especialy for women, getting leads
>> virtualy dissapears after 30. TV is often where film actors "retire" to.
>
>Excuse me! It is no big secret that Jennifer Lien was FIRED. F-I-R-E-D, I repeat.
No.
We don't know exactly what happened. This is just another rumour to
add to the pile.
I do remember TPTB stressing that the borg character was not intended
as a Kes replacement and that the whole Lien thing was completely
seperate. But I'm not entirely convinced about that.
The Ocampan lifespan was never a real problem. Ocampans live nine
years and Voyager won't go beyond a seventh season. In the unlikely
event there was ever a future Voyager series or film then it would
have been child's play to extend her life. The series has already
shown Ocampans in their teens.
Even when we hear Lien's side of the story we won't be able to be
entirely sure what happened. Though from the convention reports around
the time she left the show it looks like it wasn't as amicable as the
press releases suggested.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ David Patrick da...@alberon.demon.co.uk "Please do not offer \
/ d.j.p...@reading.ac.uk my god a peanut" APU \
------http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/3535 'Fist of Fun' web page-------
David Patrick
inksl...@FOGsunshine.net (Maureen Goldman) wrote:
>not...@umich.edu wrote:
>
>> First, 7 is pretty, but she has far from a perfect body. Her breasts are
>> outrageous (although I would swear they've actually gotten smaller since
>> she first joined the show).
>
>Apologies for snipping just a small part of your message. I've seen
>the actress wearing normal attire for interviews. Her actual chest
>size is similar to that of Mulgrew - average.
I think Jeri Taylor has expressed some embarresment at the silver
outfit they stuck Ryan in originally. Thank God they got an actress
that can actually act.
Lien can act well when she's given the chance. It just a great shame
the writers wrote themselves into a corner and then, instead of
investing some effort into making Kes more interesting, just threw in
the towel.
Sarah
David Patrick wrote:
>
> inksl...@FOGsunshine.net (Maureen Goldman) wrote:
>
> >not...@umich.edu wrote:
> >
> >> First, 7 is pretty, but she has far from a perfect body. Her breasts are
> >> outrageous (although I would swear they've actually gotten smaller since
> >> she first joined the show).
> >
> >Apologies for snipping just a small part of your message. I've seen
> >the actress wearing normal attire for interviews. Her actual chest
> >size is similar to that of Mulgrew - average.
>
> I think Jeri Taylor has expressed some embarresment at the silver
> outfit they stuck Ryan in originally. Thank God they got an actress
> that can actually act.
>
> Lien can act well when she's given the chance. It just a great shame
> the writers wrote themselves into a corner and then, instead of
> investing some effort into making Kes more interesting, just threw in
> the towel.
Does this mean Lien can actually act and/or speak in something other
than her one note on the scale? I sure would be interested to see
that. My complaint was not with the writing, but with Lien's lack of
talent. As someone else here noted, her facial features and her voice
always seemed to be stuck in one gear only. I always wanted to scream
at her "Try varying the tone and expression of your voice sometimes.
The same with your face!" It was actually quite painful to watch and
listen to her -- not the words -- but her total lack of expression in
voice and body. She *was* depressing!
Leslie Samchuk
: Does this mean Lien can actually act and/or speak in something other
: than her one note on the scale? I sure would be interested to see
: that. My complaint was not with the writing, but with Lien's lack of
: talent. As someone else here noted, her facial features and her voice
: always seemed to be stuck in one gear only. I always wanted to scream
: at her "Try varying the tone and expression of your voice sometimes.
: The same with your face!" It was actually quite painful to watch and
: listen to her -- not the words -- but her total lack of expression in
: voice and body. She *was* depressing!
Actually I felt that this gave an otherwise "cutesy" character more
legitimacy and an air of seriousness. I liked her and had no problem with
her acting...it was very...vulcan (for want of a better word). The thing
that bothered me was I liked her much better with short hair...I do
realize that, since she ages very quickly, her hair could become long in a
short period of time, but it seemed a little ridiculous that there was no
in between stage. Actually, it almost seemed as if she did get a little
more boring after she had long hair....hmmm, go figure...usually I could
care less about stuff like that.
Les
SmkMirrors
Leslie Samchuk <l...@granite.sentex.net> writes:
>But it annoys me to no end to realize that the only reason 7 of
>9 is on the show is because she's got a perfect body...how pathetic can we
>get?
And to that I respond..."Yea, and..."
With the mass feminization of most other forms of television,
NBC monday, the talkshow bloat, the primetime teen soap
opera bloat, the Lifetime channel and the upcoming PAX
network. It is refreshing to see some balance. Even if
it does come from the worst SCI-Fi show ever, ST:Voyager.
My only regret is that it wasn't Kate Mulgrew who was replaced.
Arieli
Hmmm. I agree with you totally about the hair. She looked much better
with the short hair. But I have to agree that she was depressing to
watch and listen to. I actually enjoy most of the Trek Vulcans -- as
Spock would say -- they're fascinating. They have a good range of
facial expressions, and they're interesting to listen to. But Lien had
NO range and NO facial expressions -- very boring and depressing.
But I did like her hair shorter.
Arieli
Sandra James
In article <348981...@flash.net>, Sarah wrote:
> David Patrick wrote:
> > Lien can act well when she's given the chance.[...]
> Does this mean Lien can actually act and/or speak in something other
> than her one note on the scale?
[...]
> As someone else here noted, her facial features and her voice
> always seemed to be stuck in one gear only.
[...]
> It was actually quite painful to watch and
> listen to her -- not the words -- but her total lack of expression in
> voice and body. She *was* depressing!
Well, I thought the acting was quite good. How much do you know about Ocampans?
Perhaps they just talk like that (remember Spock, if nobody had known he was
a vulcan, people would have said the same of him). And didn't you see her in
Elogium? Her acting there was great too. Of course, sch isn't the best actor of
the world (far away from it), but I didn't think she was bad either.
Live long and prosper,
Sandra
Arieli
Sandra James wrote:
>
> In article <348981...@flash.net>, Sarah wrote:
> > David Patrick wrote:
>
> > > Lien can act well when she's given the chance.[...]
> > Does this mean Lien can actually act and/or speak in something other
> > than her one note on the scale?
> [...]
> > As someone else here noted, her facial features and her voice
> > always seemed to be stuck in one gear only.
> [...]
> > It was actually quite painful to watch and
> > listen to her -- not the words -- but her total lack of expression in
> > voice and body. She *was* depressing!
>
> Well, I thought the acting was quite good. How much do you know about Ocampans?
> Perhaps they just talk like that (remember Spock, if nobody had known he was
> a vulcan, people would have said the same of him).
Oh, no, not at all. Spock was actually rather expressive -- loved the
arched eyebrow when he was fascinated by something. And he had more
than one note to his voice.
> And didn't you see her in
> Elogium? Her acting there was great too.
I saw her there, but I still have to say she's a terrible actress IMHO.
She just has no versatility at all. She has one note, and not more than
two facial expressions. Very boring.
IJBall
Arieli <no-...@flash.net> on Mon, Dec 8, 1997 8:31 PM
Message-id: <348CC9...@flash.net> wrote:
> I saw her there, but I still have to say she's a terrible actress
> IMHO. She just has no versatility at all. She has one note, and not
> more than two facial expressions. Very boring.
I take it, then, that you never saw Lien in the ABC sitcom "Phenom"? Because
she played a totally different character than Kes, and was fairly decent, as I
recall.
In other words, don't judging anyone's acting abilities by what they've done on
"Voyager"...
--
Ian J. Ball | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
IJB...@aol.com | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall/FTP/
i...@ucla.edu |
Arieli
IJBall wrote:
>
> Arieli <no-...@flash.net> on Mon, Dec 8, 1997 8:31 PM
> Message-id: <348CC9...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> > I saw her there, but I still have to say she's a terrible actress
> > IMHO. She just has no versatility at all. She has one note, and not
> > more than two facial expressions. Very boring.
>
> I take it, then, that you never saw Lien in the ABC sitcom "Phenom"?
Yes I did. She was the same boring monotonous personage in that, too.
>Because she played a totally different character than Kes, and was fairly decent, as I
> recall.
Apparently, the writing and the character have nothing to do with it --
IMHO. No matter what the role or character, Lien doesn't have what it
takes to be a memorable actress. What it takes is talent.
>
> In other words, don't judging anyone's acting abilities by what they've done on
> "Voyager"...
With all due respect, the point you're not getting here is that I have
seen Jennifer Lien in several other roles besides Kes. And I have *not*
found her to be a good actress in *any* of them. I haven't even found
her to be a competent actress. IMO, she wasn't a good actress before
Voyager, she wasn't a good actress in Voyager, and I can only hope that
she improves in the future.
In other words, IMO, as an actress Jennifer Lien sucks. No matter what
the role.
> Ian J. Ball | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
> IJB...@aol.com | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall/FTP/
> i...@ucla.edu |
Arieli