Foundation

[Jason Evans]

I've never read anything by Asimov and besides a quick introduction to the
storyline from YouTube, I knew nothing about the Foundation series so I went
into this show with very little information on what to expect.

I have to say that I liked it and I thought the casting was spot on.
However, I don't think it will last long for two reasons. First, it deals
with big ideas. People don't watch shows with big ideas. They find them
boring. This reminds me a lot of Caprica. A lot of people hated the show
because the first couple of episodes felt too "Syfy" and too focused towards
a younger audience like some kind of teen drama. However as that first
season developed, it asked bigger and bigger questions and I don't think
people were expecting that. it wasn't BSG. It took its time to to tell the
story. That leads me to the second issue with Foundation. It is slow and
plodding. That's not a bad thing when you're exploring these big ideas but
the casual viewer will be very very bored. How likely will the producers
keep pumping money into a show that only a select audience can really enjoy?

__
JE

[pubkeybreaker]

On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-4, Jason Evans wrote:
> I've never read anything by Asimov and besides a quick introduction to the
> storyline from YouTube, I knew nothing about the Foundation series so I went
> into this show with very little information on what to expect.
>
> I have to say that I liked it and I thought the casting was spot on.
> However, I don't think it will last long for two reasons. First, it deals
> with big ideas.

<spoiler alert!!>







The acting and cinematography was excellent.

There are some things that are GROSSLY wrong with the TV series. I don't mean piddling
little things such as Gaal's gender change, or 3 emperor clones or even a bunch of other stuff.

(1) Demerzel is/was Daneel Olivaw. This is an instance where the TV gender change is grossly
wrong. In the TV series the emperors also know that Demerzel is a robot. This is totally at odds
with the books; noone at the time of Cleon even knew that robots existed.

(2) Demerzel takes part in the planetoid raid and directly questions people who get shot, as well
as allowing them to die (!!!) when they don't answer questions. This is in gross violation of the
robotic laws and totally out of character; Zeroth law notwithstanding.

(3) In the books the first crisis is started by the Anacreon revolt which takes place 50 years
after the exile to terminus. In the TV show it happens at the time Hari is put on trial and Anacreon
gets wiped out. This is a fundamental plot incompatibility!!

(4) In the TV show the Foundationers are shipped off to Terminus *without* being allowed to
use a jumpship. ----> Huh??? at sub-light velocities they will never get there. I don't mind
having a willing suspension of disbelief to accept technology, but I don't like impossibilities.

There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show. The first two episodes could have been
done in one. e.g. What was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the peacock???

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:

> There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> peacock???
>

That's what happens when your script writers (and producers and
continuity people) are all crackheads.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[pubkeybreaker]

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 11:38:11 AM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
> news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:
> > There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> > The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> > was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> > peacock???
> >
> That's what happens when your script writers (and producers and
> continuity people) are all crackheads.
>
> --
> Terry Austin

Episode 3 had even more fluff. It wasted a lot of time going through the suicide of Brother Dusk.
This was totally pointless and adds nothing to the story. It also included pointless love scenes with Salvor.

There were also additional discontinuities with the book: In the book people knew the purpose of the
vault. It was not a mystery. But the show wastes a lot of time showing the vault to be some mysterious object.

I could go on, but why bother? The show is thoroughly disappointing, IMO.

[Dex]

On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:38:07 -0700
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
> news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:
>
> > There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> > The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> > was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> > peacock???
> >
> That's what happens when your script writers (and producers and
> continuity people) are all crackheads.
>

Robyn Asimov is an executive producer.

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <20211010073...@nospam.today>, Dex

Yes. But how well does she know her father's books, what were her
goals, what input did she have?

I'm surprised that there is not more discussion here and in other
newsgroups.

So far, I've watched the first two episodes. I'm wondering on whether
to continue.

[Dex]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:53:34 -0000 (UTC)
hel...@asclothestro.multivax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply))
wrote:

> In article <20211010073...@nospam.today>, Dex
> <vai...@nospam.today> writes:
>
> > On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:38:07 -0700
> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
> > > news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:
> > >
> > > > There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> > > > The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> > > > was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> > > > peacock???
> > > >
> > > That's what happens when your script writers (and producers and
> > > continuity people) are all crackheads.
> > >
> >
> > Robyn Asimov is an executive producer.
>
> Yes. But how well does she know her father's books, what were her
> goals, what input did she have?

Very well.

She wrote:

One of the benefits of having a father as prolific as mine is that he
is likely to have written something, sometime, to address any given
situation. So it was natural that I turned to my father to understand
the answer. And, as usual, he did not disappoint me. My father once
wrote: "My nonappearance on the screen has not bothered me. I am
strictly a print person. I write material that is intended to appear on
a printed page, and not on a screen, either large or small. I have been
invited on numerous occasions to write a screenplay for motion picture
or television, either original, or as an adaptation of my own story or
someone else's, and I have refused every time. Whatever talents I may
have, writing for the eye is not one of them, and I am lucky enough to
know what I can't do.

"On the other hand, if someone else -- someone who has the particular
talent of writing for the eye that I do not have -- were to adapt one
of my stories for the screen, I would not expect that the screen
version be 'faithful' to the print version."

[Your Name]

pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:
>
> There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> peacock???

Apple giving NBC's streaming service "the bird". ;-)

[T987654321]

Happily lots of people don't have crApple accounts.

[Dimensional Traveler]

http://www.dorktower.com/2021/09/29/second-foundation-dork-tower-29-09-21/


--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Dex <vai...@nospam.today> wrote in news:20211010073318.00000b06
@nospam.today:

Which could mean a lot, or it could easily mean nothing. Various
levels of producer are freebies handed out like candy, and many
executive produces have nothing whatsoever to do with actual
production.

Or arey ou saying Robyn Asimov is a crackhead?

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

T987654321 <qwrt...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b6ed1190-e29a-4a11...@googlegroups.com:

Or any interst at all in any screen adaptation, big or small, of
any golden age novel that it is possible to make today, since there
is zero chance of it not being modified beyond recognition to make
it more woke.

[Dex]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 08:29:47 -0700

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dex <vai...@nospam.today> wrote in news:20211010073318.00000b06
> @nospam.today:
>
> > On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:38:07 -0700
> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
> >> news:ececff88-d5c0-4b10...@googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> > There is also, IMO a lot of unnecessary "fluff" in the TV show.
> >> > The first two episodes could have been done in one. e.g. What
> >> > was the point of the scene where the emperors were eating the
> >> > peacock???
> >> >
> >> That's what happens when your script writers (and producers and
> >> continuity people) are all crackheads.
> >>
> >
> > Robyn Asimov is an executive producer.
> >
> Which could mean a lot, or it could easily mean nothing. Various
> levels of producer are freebies handed out like candy, and many
> executive produces have nothing whatsoever to do with actual
> production.
>
> Or arey ou saying Robyn Asimov is a crackhead?
>

Robyn and the Asimov literary estate were consulted and “very happy” about the
changes made by David Goyer, including the gender swap. Apple has given
season 2 the green light and time will tell if further seasons will be
made.

[Dex]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 08:32:22 -0700

Sit back and watch re-runs of old black and white movies then if that's
your choice. other people do want to, woke and all.

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <20211012121...@nospam.today>, Dex

<vai...@nospam.today> writes:

> Robyn and the Asimov literary estate were consulted and very happy
> about the
> changes made by David Goyer, including the gender swap. Apple has given
> season 2 the green light and time will tell if further seasons will be
> made.

Considering the lack of sex in most of Asimov's books, the gender swap
is not a problem for me, and maybe a good idea considering how
male-centric 1950s s.f. was. But writing sex into the plot goes a bit
far, and changing important details like what is revealed when I think
really goes too far.

It would be interesting to know how much of her father's work Robyn has
read.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Dex <vai...@nospam.today> wrote in
news:20211012121...@nospam.today:

Again, that could mean a lot, or it could mean nothing. It could
easily mean "We're happy the check cleared, and we really don't
give a damn what the do with the material." That's common enough.
If she were on the writing staff, that would be a stronger
indicator of a positive influence, but that's apparently not the
case.

"Executive Producer" means *nothing*. Someone being paid a lot of
money for the rights means *nothing*.

>Apple has given season 2 the green light and time
> will tell if further seasons will be made.
>

If you like it, watch it. I almost never bother with *anything*
adpated from novels, particularly in the current woke era when the
novels are golden age stuff, because the changes to meet woke
expectations are pretty much always the entire, and only point, and
that does not provide me with any enterainment value whatsoever.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Dex <vai...@nospam.today> wrote in
news:20211012121...@nospam.today:

Mostly, I watch reruns from the 60s and 70s, when I watch TV at
all, which isn't that much. (And I haven't seen a movie since the
pandemic started, but that's a difference of about 1 movie a year.)
Hollywood output is far, far too predictable to be entertaining, by
and large.

I greatly prefer a good book.

> other people do want to, woke and all.
>

More power to you. Enjoy. I'll be somewhere else, doing something
*I* find entertaining, and secure in the knowledge that the child
of an author approving of the adaptation doesn't mean anything one
way or the other, which is the point I made.

[The Last Doctor]

Case in point: The Watch. Overseen by Rihanna Pratchett. Resemblance to the
source material: less than one percent, and that doesn’t include the
humour. And the material is only from the last couple of decades, not 70
years ago.

The Watch isn’t a terrible urban fantasy: it’s just fuck all like
Discworld. It just stole some characters and the bones of settings and
plots, and went somewhere completely different. Somewhere I doubt it will
get another chance to go again.

I think Foundation is going to be like that. Not to mention I think Apple
are hoping that they’ve found their “Expanse” in it. Going by the first
episode, they were on track for that. But the second episode was such an
hour of unutterable dullness that I have no urge to return.

--
There are some corners of the universe
which have bred the most terrible things.
Things which act against everything we believe in.

They must be /fought/.

[Your Name]

Goyer wants it to be eight seasons / 80 episodes ... whether or not he
gets that depends on various factors.

[Dimensional Traveler]

http://www.dorktower.com/2021/10/01/foundations-edgy-dork-tower-01-10-21/

[pubkeybreaker]

Episode 5 was the worst yet. 20 Minutes of Gaal's background story added nothing, and the plot gets further and further from the books.
Why, after 30 years is Terminus a slum? They've done nothing with their infrastructure? And it certainly does not hold 100,000 people....
The conflict with Anacreon keeps getting further and further from the books. .... There was nothing good about this episode. It just plain sucked.
They are turning the story into space opera.

And there is another fundamental philosophical discrepancy from the books. The plan requires that the Foundation proceed blindly
toward the future. Just the fact that Gaal (who knows the math behind the plan) is around at all violates this idea, not to mention the
fact that the First Foundation being in possession of the Prime Radiant violates the plan as well.

See my earlier comments about Demerzel actively killing people..... A total violation of Asimov's laws of robotics....

I'm going to stop watching and unsubscribe from Apple TV. They have butchered fundamental ideas from the books.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in
news:40b0eacc-4f14-4b61...@googlegroups.com:

> See my earlier comments about Demerzel actively killing
> people..... A total violation of Asimov's laws of robotics....
>

I predict that those very laws of robotics - and how all robots must
follow them - will eventually become a major plot point with no
reference to earlier violations.

If that hasn't happened already.

[The Last Doctor]

Demerzel is supposedly R. Daneel Olivaw, though - whose distinctive
difference was the capability of comprehend and act on the Zeroth Law
without ceasing to function. If the killing was adjudged necessary for the
good of humanity, Daneel is capable of doing it - and even more capable of
walking away and letting it happen, or even ordering it done. I haven’t
watched the scene though, so I don’t know whether it’s a fundamental break
with the Laws of Robotics or not.

>
> I'm going to stop watching and unsubscribe from Apple TV. They have
> butchered fundamental ideas from the books.
>

Someone already linked to the Dork Towers relating to this. Let’s be fair,
a faithful rendition of the original Foundation stories would be a total
snooze fest for 95% of the viewership. Even those of us who admire and have
re-read the books could find it hard going as TV. But the degree of
divergence does seem to be - extreme.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

The Last Doctor <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote in
news:skc8jr$he$1...@dont-email.me:

The very things that make a good book good are often things that
would make a movie or TV show bad, and vice versa. When adapting
one to the other, certain changes *have* to be made if you want any
hope of commercial success.

However, if you're going to completely change the story, you really
shouldn't call it by the same name.

"Inspired by the title of a popular novel we haven't read, but we
have to make the white male author look bad or stupid or the woke
crowd won't let us make it."

[pubkeybreaker]

[pubkeybreaker]

On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, pubkeybreaker wrote:

Note also that in the show the colonists are in possession of a Prime Radiant. It was a FUNDAMENTAL principle
that the colonists could not know what would happen in advance. Having a Radiant (which held all of the equations)
violates that!

Despite all of the plot deviations this show could have been a lot better if the writers had actually read and
UNDERSTOOD the books, along with some editing that caught some of these problems that I have outlined.

Also, where in blazes did Gaal get her mathematical training??

[pubkeybreaker]

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:01:01 PM UTC-4, The Last Doctor wrote:
> pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 12:07:58 AM UTC-4, pubkeybreaker wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 11:38:11 AM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >>> pubkeybreaker <pubkey...@aol.com> wrote in

<snip>

> > See my earlier comments about Demerzel actively killing people..... A
> > total violation of Asimov's laws of robotics....
> Demerzel is supposedly R. Daneel Olivaw, though - whose distinctive
> difference was the capability of comprehend and act on the Zeroth Law
> without ceasing to function. If the killing was adjudged necessary for the
> good of humanity, Daneel is capable of doing it - and even more capable of
> walking away and letting it happen, or even ordering it done. I haven’t

> watched the scene...

The killing was not to help people or save lives. It was to determine who did the bombing
so they could be punished. I don't see this as "necessary for the good of humanity".