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Doctor Who - Heaven Sent - Review With Spoilers

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The Doctor

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Nov 28, 2015, 10:25:55 PM11/28/15
to
9/10 .

I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.

Psychodrama at its best!

Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.

He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.

IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.

Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.

Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.

By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.

Where does he end up?


Home! And next week looks interesting!

You have to pay close attention!!

This makes Midnight looks a picnic.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016

T987654321

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Nov 29, 2015, 3:35:47 AM11/29/15
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The Doctor is a hybrid who wil...never mind.

Doctor Who needs to be put back on the shelf for a couple years and come back with a new team of writers and producers.

John Hall

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:08:07 AM11/29/15
to
In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
<doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>9/10 .
>
>I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
>

My own score would be a lot lower than 9.

As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"

SPOILERS FOLLOW!

First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.

Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)

Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.

Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.

I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
--
John Hall
"Honest criticism is hard to take,
particularly from a relative, a friend,
an acquaintance, or a stranger." Franklin P Jones

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 8:21:34 AM11/29/15
to
In article <CKShKnECwtWWFwCG@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
REcall the Doctor did give Ashilidr his confession dial.

>Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
>made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
>quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
>he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
>his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
>concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
>particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
>surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
>then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
>mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
>they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
>I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
>Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
>Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
>interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
>

Who are his captors, if any?

>Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
>over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
>wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.

It is the Time Lords?

>
>Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
>some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
>fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
>years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
>that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
>Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
>increasing level of damage to it.

REmember he is caught in a loop.

>
>I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
>the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
>such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
>Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
>meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
>the Veil.
>--
>John Hall
> "Honest criticism is hard to take,
> particularly from a relative, a friend,
> an acquaintance, or a stranger." Franklin P Jones


anim8rfsk

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 10:55:49 AM11/29/15
to
In article <CKShKnECwtWWFwCG@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
> <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
> >9/10 .
> >
> >I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
> >
>
> My own score would be a lot lower than 9.

Can we go negative?
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
>
> Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
> made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
> quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
> he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
> his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
> concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
> particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
> surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
> then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
> mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
> they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
> I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
> Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
> Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
> interesting. I wonder what he feared.)

A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
>
> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
>
> Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
> some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
> fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
> years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
> that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
> Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
> increasing level of damage to it.

Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
>
> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
> then it must have been better than I at first thought!

No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.

The big reveal at
> the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
> such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
> meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
> the Veil.

--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.

Arthur Lipscomb

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Nov 29, 2015, 11:51:42 AM11/29/15
to
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.

> Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
>>
>> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
>
> No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
> ever" record in, er, record time.
>

OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
episode. :-/

Siri Cruz

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Nov 29, 2015, 12:31:42 PM11/29/15
to
> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.

In the Invasion of Time when they talk about the Eye of Harmony, they say it
makes a perpetual balance, so, yes, they overcome entropy.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline

anim8rfsk

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Nov 29, 2015, 12:35:10 PM11/29/15
to
In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
And why make an escape possibly at all?

> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.

Yeah, how exactly *was* he keeping count? Just by looking at the stars?
And why did it possibly take him thousands of years to come up with "the
transporter room resets" every time?
>
> > Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
> >>
> >> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
> >> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
> >
> > No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
> > ever" record in, er, record time.
> >
>
> OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
> episode. :-/

Nope.

And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.

Siri Cruz

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 12:39:47 PM11/29/15
to
In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:

> Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
> Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
> gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.

They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.

Hybrid? Dalek? Gallifrey? I haven't got a clue.

Since Gallifrey isn't in normal space, its crack to normal space could be within
a light year.

David Barnett

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 2:42:20 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-B50F45.10350829112015
@news.easynews.com>, anim...@cox.net says...
>
> And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
> knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
> end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.

Yes, the end credits did.

--
David Barnett

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:03:17 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-54F5F...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>In article <CKShKnECwtWWFwCG@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
> John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
>> <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>> >9/10 .
>> >
>> >I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
>> >
>>
>> My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
>
>Can we go negative?

See ou all on imdb.
Recall this has to deal with the confession dial which Ashildr has.

>>
>> Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
>> made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
>> quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
>> he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
>> his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
>> concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
>> particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
>> surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
>> then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
>> mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
>> they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
>> I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
>> Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
>> Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
>> interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
>
>A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
>teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...

He does so 2 000 000 000 times.

The moat is filled with his skulls.

>>
>> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
>> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
>> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.

Doubtful. REcall LEt's Kill Hitler.

>>
>> Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
>> some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
>> fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
>> years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
>> that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
>> Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
>> increasing level of damage to it.
>
>Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?

Not of the rooms are really resetting.

>>
>> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
>
>No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
>ever" record in, er, record time.

Ever heard of a repeat-until loop?

>
> The big reveal at
>> the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
>> such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
>> Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
>> meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
>> the Veil.
>

This was a Hell of the Doctor's own making.

>--
>Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:04:14 PM11/29/15
to
In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:
Becaue the Doctor is caught in a loop.

>
>> Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
>>>
>>> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>>> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
>>
>> No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
>> ever" record in, er, record time.
>>
>
>OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
>episode. :-/
>

Do you have issues in logical determination?

>
>> The big reveal at
>>> the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
>>> such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
>>> Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
>>> meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
>>> the Veil.
>>
>


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:04:46 PM11/29/15
to
In article <chine.bleu-66076...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <CKShKnECwtWWFwCG@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
> John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
>> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
>> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
>
>In the Invasion of Time when they talk about the Eye of Harmony, they say it
>makes a perpetual balance, so, yes, they overcome entropy.
>

A Black Hole that give Gallifrey Time Travel power!

>--
>:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
>'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
>God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
>cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:06:16 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-B50F4...@news.easynews.com>,
The *time machine* scenes are all virtual.

>
>> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
>> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
>
>Yeah, how exactly *was* he keeping count? Just by looking at the stars?
>And why did it possibly take him thousands of years to come up with "the
>transporter room resets" every time?

He does not recall the time he as been reset.

>>
>> > Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
>> >>
>> >> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>> >> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
>> >
>> > No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
>> > ever" record in, er, record time.
>> >
>>
>> OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
>> episode. :-/
>
>Nope.
>
>And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
>knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
>end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.

They did at the end.

>
>--
>Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:07:23 PM11/29/15
to
In article <chine.bleu-7397A...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:
>
>> Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
>> Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
>> gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
>> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
>> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
>
>They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
>Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
>Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.
>
>Hybrid? Dalek? Gallifrey? I haven't got a clue.
>
>Since Gallifrey isn't in normal space, its crack to normal space could be within
>a light year.
>

We guess. The Doctor most likely was teleported into his confession dial.

>--
>:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
>'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
>God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
>cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:07:53 PM11/29/15
to
In article <MPG.30c6002...@news.eternal-september.org>,
"get off your arse"

Agamemnon

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:21:37 PM11/29/15
to
On 29/11/2015 11:05, John Hall wrote:
> In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
> <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>> 9/10 .
>>
>> I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
>>
>
> My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
>
> As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
> holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
> someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
> problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
> work around them?"

Seconded.

>
> SPOILERS FOLLOW!
>
> First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
> castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
> That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
> like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
> is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be

All of which is a complete load of nonsense. He wouldn't be able to tell
he was 7,000 years into the future just from observing the positions of
the stars with he eyes without accurate measuring equipment. They didn't
even look like recognisable constellations to me to begin with. After
less than a a hundred thousand years the Doctor wouldn't have a clue
what date it was. Like he's got information about the velocities of all
the brightest stars in his head and when they will go nova?

> brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
> have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
> It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
> solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
> atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
> proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
> Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
> and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
> there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
> even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end

If the planet was in Earth's solar system close enough to the sun to be
provided with enough heat and light it would affect the motions of other
planets and therefore have been noticed even with a clocking device to
hide it.

> of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
> Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
> different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
> range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
> terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.

The confession dial he was locked into was also on Gallifrey.

>
> Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
> made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
> quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
> he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
> his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
> concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
> particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
> surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
> then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
> mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
> they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)

He never confessed he was the hybrid when he was in the dial so that
could be a lie. Ashildr is the most likely hybrid unless they're going
to reveal the Doctor is half human again.

> I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
> Doctor perfectly from a back-up.

It's a perpetual motion machine. Where does the mass/energy come from to
produce the copy when the Doctor's ashes and skull remain on the ground?

(Talking of confessions: that the
> Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
> interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
>

In An Unearthly Child the Doctor and Susan were fugitives from their own
people. Maybe the Doctor was afraid of dying without seeing the
universe. At this time he doesn't have a clue what Daleks or Cybermen
even are or anything much. Maybe he was afraid of being called up for
National Service?

> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
>

Ever since RTD and Moffat took over the show they've had the same
moronic obsession with exaggerating everything so much that's it's
become totally unbelievable. Instead of having a tiny isolated village
being invaded by aliens it's got to be the entire f'ing planet and it's
on ever f'ing news channel and then everyone forgets. Instead of a few
dozen Zygon's being given sanctuary it's has to be 20 f'ing million of
them and no one f'ing notices. Instead of the Doctor being UNIT's
scientific advisor he has to be world f'ing president. And now instead
of going round a loop a few dozen times like in Meglos it has to be near
a whole f'ing trillion.

BTW after Gallifrey dispersed how was the planet of the Fendahl which
was in the same solar system kept inside the time loop the Time Lords
put it in?

What happens to the Time Lock Gallifrey was put in at the end of the
Time War now that Gallifrey is back?

> Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
> some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
> fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
> years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
> that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.

Like why didn't he kick it or use his spade?

> Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
> increasing level of damage to it.
>

How did they know the monster wasn't going to kill the Doctor outright?
Was it their intention for him to live or die? If the latter why not
just kill him properly in a disintergrator (which the teleporter
resembled) like the Daleks did to the Master in the TVM?

> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
> then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at

No. Just badly written.

> the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine

It didn't come as a surprise because the Doctor Who website and Radio
Times gave the entire f'ing ending away over a week ago.

> such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
> meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
> the Veil.

I'm expecting it to be another plot-less disappointment. Everything
being built up so that the reset button can be pressed.


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:29:30 PM11/29/15
to
In article <aNKdnTQOo-rC8cbL...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>On 29/11/2015 11:05, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
>> <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>>> 9/10 .
>>>
>>> I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
>>>
>>
>> My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
>>
>> As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
>> holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
>> someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
>> problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
>> work around them?"
>
>Seconded.
>

I wonder how he gets writing awards.

>>
>> SPOILERS FOLLOW!
>>
>> First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
>> castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
>> That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
>> like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
>> is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
>
>All of which is a complete load of nonsense. He wouldn't be able to tell
>he was 7,000 years into the future just from observing the positions of
>the stars with he eyes without accurate measuring equipment. They didn't
>even look like recognisable constellations to me to begin with. After
>less than a a hundred thousand years the Doctor wouldn't have a clue
>what date it was. Like he's got information about the velocities of all
>the brightest stars in his head and when they will go nova?

He is caught a loop of his own making.

>
>> brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
>> have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
>> It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
>> solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
>> atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
>> proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
>> Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
>> and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
>> there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
>> even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
>
>If the planet was in Earth's solar system close enough to the sun to be
>provided with enough heat and light it would affect the motions of other
>planets and therefore have been noticed even with a clocking device to
>hide it.

Point well taken.

>
>> of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
>> Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
>> different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
>> range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
>> terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
>
>The confession dial he was locked into was also on Gallifrey.

Sounds ike the Gallifreyan Matrix.

>
>>
>> Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
>> made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
>> quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
>> he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
>> his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
>> concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
>> particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
>> surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
>> then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
>> mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
>> they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
>
>He never confessed he was the hybrid when he was in the dial so that
>could be a lie. Ashildr is the most likely hybrid unless they're going
>to reveal the Doctor is half human again.
>

We wait and see on this one. Ashilidr is a hybrid

>> I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
>> Doctor perfectly from a back-up.
>
>It's a perpetual motion machine. Where does the mass/energy come from to
>produce the copy when the Doctor's ashes and skull remain on the ground?

We saw the 7000 iteration. I wonder how it worked the 1st time.

>
>(Talking of confessions: that the
>> Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
>> interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
>>
>
>In An Unearthly Child the Doctor and Susan were fugitives from their own
>people. Maybe the Doctor was afraid of dying without seeing the
>universe. At this time he doesn't have a clue what Daleks or Cybermen
>even are or anything much. Maybe he was afraid of being called up for
>National Service?
>

Recall the idea ofthe Gallifreyan Military was inert at the start.

>> Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
>> over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
>> wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
>>
>
>Ever since RTD and Moffat took over the show they've had the same
>moronic obsession with exaggerating everything so much that's it's
>become totally unbelievable. Instead of having a tiny isolated village
>being invaded by aliens it's got to be the entire f'ing planet and it's
>on ever f'ing news channel and then everyone forgets. Instead of a few
>dozen Zygon's being given sanctuary it's has to be 20 f'ing million of
>them and no one f'ing notices. Instead of the Doctor being UNIT's
>scientific advisor he has to be world f'ing president. And now instead
>of going round a loop a few dozen times like in Meglos it has to be near
>a whole f'ing trillion.
>
>BTW after Gallifrey dispersed how was the planet of the Fendahl which
>was in the same solar system kept inside the time loop the Time Lords
>put it in?
>
>What happens to the Time Lock Gallifrey was put in at the end of the
>Time War now that Gallifrey is back?
>

RTD was the one who wanted Gallifrey out of the way
while Moffat toyed with the Gallifrey idea of its return.

>> Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
>> some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
>> fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
>> years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
>> that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
>
>Like why didn't he kick it or use his spade?
>
>> Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
>> increasing level of damage to it.
>>
>
>How did they know the monster wasn't going to kill the Doctor outright?
>Was it their intention for him to live or die? If the latter why not
>just kill him properly in a disintergrator (which the teleporter
>resembled) like the Daleks did to the Master in the TVM?
>
>> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>> then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
>
>No. Just badly written.
>
>> the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
>
>It didn't come as a surprise because the Doctor Who website and Radio
>Times gave the entire f'ing ending away over a week ago.
>
>> such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
>> Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
>> meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
>> the Veil.
>
>I'm expecting it to be another plot-less disappointment. Everything
>being built up so that the reset button can be pressed.
>
>

REgeneration occuring wher?

Alan

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:34:20 PM11/29/15
to
>>The Doctor is a hybrid.....

The 8th Doctor, Paul McGann, claimed to be half-human on his mother's
side. Looks like someone found that reference, and decided to do
something with it, rather than pretend that it never happened.


--
Alan

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 4:34:57 PM11/29/15
to
In article <v9rm5b9nd96svons1...@4ax.com>,
We shall see.

>
>--
>Alan

John Hall

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 5:17:18 PM11/29/15
to
In message <n3fp8d$6gk$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
<doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:
>>
>>Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
>>Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
>>gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
>>up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
>>of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
>
>Becaue the Doctor is caught in a loop.

No he isn't. It looks like that, but he's actually being created anew
each time from the data that was stored right at the start, presumably
when the original Doctor went through the initial teleport. As far as
each new instance of the Doctor is concerned, he's experiencing the
events for the first time.

anim8rfsk

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:05:37 PM11/29/15
to
In article <aNKdnTQOo-rC8cbL...@eclipse.net.uk>,
Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:

> On 29/11/2015 11:05, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
> > <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
> >> 9/10 .
> >>
> >> I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
> >>
> >
> > My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
> >
> > As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
> > holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
> > someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
> > problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
> > work around them?"
>
> Seconded.
>
> >
> > SPOILERS FOLLOW!
> >
> > First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
> > castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
> > That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
> > like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
> > is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
>
> All of which is a complete load of nonsense. He wouldn't be able to tell
> he was 7,000 years into the future just from observing the positions of
> the stars with he eyes without accurate measuring equipment. They didn't
> even look like recognisable constellations to me to begin with.

If he's less than a light year from Earth they should be; I was more
annoyed that he did it during the daytime.

After
> less than a a hundred thousand years the Doctor wouldn't have a clue
> what date it was. Like he's got information about the velocities of all
> the brightest stars in his head and when they will go nova?
>
> > brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
> > have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
> > It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
> > solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
> > atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
> > proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
> > Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
> > and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
> > there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
> > even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
>
> If the planet was in Earth's solar system close enough to the sun to be
> provided with enough heat and light it would affect the motions of other
> planets and therefore have been noticed even with a clocking device to
> hide it.

Or even with one.
Yeah, something other than his right hand would have been nice.
>
> > Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
> > increasing level of damage to it.
> >
>
> How did they know the monster wasn't going to kill the Doctor outright?
> Was it their intention for him to live or die? If the latter why not
> just kill him properly in a disintergrator (which the teleporter
> resembled) like the Daleks did to the Master in the TVM?
>
> > I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
> > then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
>
> No. Just badly written.
>
> > the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
>
> It didn't come as a surprise because the Doctor Who website and Radio
> Times gave the entire f'ing ending away over a week ago.
>
> > such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
> > Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
> > meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
> > the Veil.
>
> I'm expecting it to be another plot-less disappointment. Everything
> being built up so that the reset button can be pressed.

anim8rfsk

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:05:49 PM11/29/15
to
Thanks!

Pudentame

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:36:18 PM11/29/15
to
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 10:35:08 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:
Yes.

She's right after Capaldi as The Doctor and just above Jami
Reid-Quarrell as the Veil.

The TARDIS in this episode is all inside The Doctor's head and the
real Clara is dead. The one writing questions on the blackboard is The
Doctor's idealized version of Clara.

But for me, it supports my contention that the way Clara's death in
"Face the Raven" was shown is out of character.

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:49:39 PM11/29/15
to
In article <V288E9Kgj3WWFwC$@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
Ever heard of a repeat-until loop?

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:51:18 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-2EC5B...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>In article <MPG.30c6002...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> David Barnett <dbar...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> In article <anim8rfsk-B50F45.10350829112015
>> @news.easynews.com>, anim...@cox.net says...
>> >
>> > And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
>> > knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
>> > end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.
>>
>> Yes, the end credits did.
>
>Thanks!
>

You are wlecome. The Net rocks!

>--
>Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.


anim8rfsk

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 6:58:36 PM11/29/15
to
In article <bc2n5bhetqdtfds8d...@4ax.com>,
Thanks!

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 7:04:06 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-F5A5A...@news.easynews.com>,
Maybe next week everything will be revealed.

>--
>Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.


Pudentame

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 7:09:43 PM11/29/15
to
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 09:39:35 -0800, Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In article <n3faac$ou$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:
>
>> Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
>> Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
>> gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
>> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
>> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
>
>They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
>Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
>Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.

The Hybrid isn't all Dalek, because a hybrid has to be part of two
different species. The hybrid can't be half Dalek, so it can't be any
part Dalek.

The preview says "The hybrid is a creature thought to be cross-bred
from two warrior races."

The Time Lords and the Daleks are not the only two warrior races in
the galaxy.

IF The Doctor is the Hybrid, he's half Time Lord and half what else?
It's not Sontaran, they're all batch clones. Not Silurians, he doesn't
have scales. It's not Ice Warriors.

Voord, Kroton, Auton? Alpha Centauran

Raxacoricofallapatorian?

Hmmmmmm? What other race might The Doctor have taken an interest in
protecting because they're part of his genetic history?

I know Zygons. The Zygon Queen Elizabeth I was the one who survived to
marry The Doctor and The Doctor is his own grandpaw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w09ijcjnVRs

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 7:10:31 PM11/29/15
to
In article <u13n5b5jb7hap4dod...@4ax.com>,
Well a mix of something.

Siri Cruz

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 7:35:53 PM11/29/15
to
In article <u13n5b5jb7hap4dod...@4ax.com>,
Pudentame <no....@no.where.invalid> wrote:

According the Doctor 8 his mother was human.

Pudentame

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 7:51:37 PM11/29/15
to
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 16:35:50 -0800, Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com>
In the words of the late, great Molly Ivins, "Quelle surprise!"

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 8:26:37 PM11/29/15
to
In article <chine.bleu-125E0...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
Recalled!

>--
>:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
>'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
>God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
>cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 8:27:02 PM11/29/15
to
In article <ca7n5bpnuirrd6oei...@4ax.com>,
En Anglais s'il vous plait.

David Barnett

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 8:39:07 PM11/29/15
to
In article <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>,
doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca says...
>
> 9/10 .
>
Boring! Boring! Boring!
Surely kids would have found this boring.

I agree with anim that this was the worst episode ever,
& considering how bad some episodes were, that was some
feat.

In spite of the above, I concede that that there were a
couple of notable ideas.

--
David Barnett

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 8:41:27 PM11/29/15
to
In article <MPG.30c6018...@news.eternal-september.org>,
I find this intruing and watchable again.

anim8rfsk

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 9:04:00 PM11/29/15
to
> In article <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>,
> doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca says...
> >
> > 9/10 .
> >
> Boring! Boring! Boring!
> Surely kids would have found this boring.

Kids of all ages!
>
> I agree with anim that this was the worst episode ever,

Yay me! :D

> & considering how bad some episodes were, that was some
> feat.

LOL, really.
>
> In spite of the above, I concede that that there were a
> couple of notable ideas.

That makes it all the worse, the missed opportunities.

¡Gölök Z.L.F Buday AKA The Black Jester #theblackjester

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 9:07:31 PM11/29/15
to
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 03:25:54 -0000 (UTC), in rec.arts.drwho doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:

Ą9/10 .
Ą
ĄI will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
Ą
ĄPsychodrama at its best!
Ą
ĄTe Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
Ąa mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.
Ą
ĄHe has to figure out why and how he got there
Ąand what trap awaits him.
Ą
ĄIF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
ĄWatch this hour long episode.
Ą
ĄApppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.
Ą
ĄRepeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.
Ą
ĄBy the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.
Ą
ĄWhere does he end up?
Ą
Ą
ĄHome! And next week looks interesting!
Ą
ĄYou have to pay close attention!!
Ą
ĄThis makes Midnight looks a picnic.
Ą--
ĄMember - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
ĄGod,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Ąhttp://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
ĄHappy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016

Pretentious fatuous garbage.


The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 9:35:56 PM11/29/15
to
In article <anim8rfsk-7A96C...@news.easynews.com>,
You bashers are drab.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism

The Doctor

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 9:36:14 PM11/29/15
to
In article <565baf4a...@shawnews.vc.shawcable.net>,
Says you joker.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism

suzeeq

unread,
Nov 29, 2015, 9:41:29 PM11/29/15
to
Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
> On 11/29/2015 7:55 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <CKShKnECwtWWFwCG@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
>> John Hall <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <n3dr82$d90$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, The Doctor
>>> <doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> writes
>>>> 9/10 .
>>>>
>>>> I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
>>>>
> Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
> Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
> gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
> up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
> of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
>
>> Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
>>> I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
>>> then it must have been better than I at first thought!
>> No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
>> ever" record in, er, record time.
>>
>
> OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
> episode. :-/

I was lost during most of it. I'll just presume that a lot of it won't
be important to the finale next week. If it is, then I'll read about it.

The Doctor

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Nov 29, 2015, 9:42:09 PM11/29/15
to