CW's Wonder Woman project gets new writer

[David]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cws-wonder-woman-prequel-amazon-524002

CW's 'Wonder Woman' Prequel 'Amazon' Gets New Writer: 'Heroes' Aron
Eli Coleite
by Lesley Goldberg

The CW isn't done with Wonder Woman prequel Amazon.

After the high-profile adaptation of the famed DC Comics character
failed earn a pilot order this past season, the youth-skewing network
ordered a new script for the origin story of Wonder Woman's alter-ego
Diana of Themyscira.

Speaking to reporters Thursday following the network's upfront
presentation to advertisers in New York, CW president Mark Pedowitz
noted original writer Amazon Allan Heinberg (Grey's Anatomy) was no
longer working on the rewrite and the project is still a priority.
Replacing him is scribe Aron Eli Coleite, a writer with geek credits
including Heroes and The River.

"It is being redeveloped, we're waiting for the script to come in; we
haven't seen it yet," he said. "We are preparing to pilot it off-cycle
should the script be what we want it to be. We do not want to produce
something that doesn't work for that particular character -- it is the
trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."

Amazonhad strong buzz going into pilot season, with the network
already eyeing potential leads. Talking to reporters in January at the
Television Critics Association's winter press tour, Pedowitz said his
development team was waiting to see the script and was "busy casting
Diana."

"Hopefully the script works the way we want," Pedowitz told THR,
noting that the origin story of Diana Prince would be set in the
present day -- instead of the character's original World War II-era
origin -- with the network looking at both new and established
actresses for the part. Pedowitz suggested that his team would
continue to explore other DC properties as well.
Wonder Woman has had a string of bad luck at the broadcast networks.
David E. Kelley tried unsuccessfully to bring the franchise to NBC in
2011 with Friday Night Lights' Adrianne Palicki attached. Despite
landing a pilot order, NBC ultimately passed on the drama that
featured Diana as a businesswoman/shy woman.

"As well crafted and contemporized as [the Kelley pilot] was, it was a
big and radical shift for viewers to embrace this new idea -- and that
may, to some degree, have had to do with why it didn’t make it,"
Warner Bros. TV president Peter Roth told THR in 2011, noting at the
time that the character's future at another network was to be
determined.

The CW's effort marked the latest in a long line of big- and small-
screen takes on the famed heroine, following the 1975-79 TV series
starring Lynda Carter. In 2005, Warner Bros. announced Joss Whedon
(Buffy the Vampire Slayer) would write and direct a film adaptation,
which never materialized.

The comics, meanwhile, continue to reboot the hero, most recently
connecting her romantically with Superman after a short-lived costume
change that evolved Wonder Woman's costume from a sexy one-piece to
include pants.

Coleite, whose résumé also includes Crossing Jordan, is repped by CAA
and Jackoway Tyerman.

[anim8rFSK]

In article
<e84ff9ba-1415-4a81...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
David <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cws-wonder-woman-prequel-amazon-524

> 002
>
> CW's 'Wonder Woman' Prequel 'Amazon' Gets New Writer: 'Heroes' Aron
> Eli Coleite
> by Lesley Goldberg
>
> The CW isn't done with Wonder Woman prequel Amazon.
>
> After the high-profile adaptation of the famed DC Comics character
> failed earn a pilot order this past season, the youth-skewing network
> ordered a new script for the origin story of Wonder Woman's alter-ego
> Diana of Themyscira.

Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
CW to realize that that was the problem?

>
> Speaking to reporters Thursday following the network's upfront
> presentation to advertisers in New York, CW president Mark Pedowitz
> noted original writer Amazon Allan Heinberg (Grey's Anatomy) was no
> longer working on the rewrite and the project is still a priority.
> Replacing him is scribe Aron Eli Coleite, a writer with geek credits
> including Heroes and The River.
>
> "It is being redeveloped, we're waiting for the script to come in; we
> haven't seen it yet," he said. "We are preparing to pilot it off-cycle
> should the script be what we want it to be. We do not want to produce
> something that doesn't work for that particular character -- it is the
> trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."

Uh, well, how many others can we name that are trickier? Anybody want
to go for 'all of them, I think'?

--
"Every time a Kardashian gets a TV show, an angel dies."

[Your Name]

In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>, anim8rFSK

<anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> In article
> <e84ff9ba-1415-4a81...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> David <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cws-wonder-woman-prequel-amazon-524002
> >
> > CW's 'Wonder Woman' Prequel 'Amazon' Gets New Writer: 'Heroes' Aron
> > Eli Coleite
> > by Lesley Goldberg
> >
> > The CW isn't done with Wonder Woman prequel Amazon.
> >
> > After the high-profile adaptation of the famed DC Comics character
> > failed earn a pilot order this past season, the youth-skewing network
> > ordered a new script for the origin story of Wonder Woman's alter-ego
> > Diana of Themyscira.
>
> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
> CW to realize that that was the problem?

Since it's CW, it's more likely that the previous script which was still
to fitting with what's already been established, so they got a new writer
in to butcher it even further. :-(

> > Speaking to reporters Thursday following the network's upfront
> > presentation to advertisers in New York, CW president Mark Pedowitz
> > noted original writer Amazon Allan Heinberg (Grey's Anatomy) was no
> > longer working on the rewrite and the project is still a priority.
> > Replacing him is scribe Aron Eli Coleite, a writer with geek credits
> > including Heroes and The River.
> >
> > "It is being redeveloped, we're waiting for the script to come in; we
> > haven't seen it yet," he said. "We are preparing to pilot it off-cycle
> > should the script be what we want it to be. We do not want to produce
> > something that doesn't work for that particular character -- it is the
> > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."
>
> Uh, well, how many others can we name that are trickier? Anybody want
> to go for 'all of them, I think'?

"We do not want to produce something that doesn't work for that particular

character" ... what, like the Smallvile drivel. :-(


On a positive note, here in New Zealand, Sky TV has just launched a new
channel playing lots of great (and not so great) old shows, including the
original Lynda Carter "Wonder Woman" series. :-)

[anim8rFSK]

In article
<YourName-170...@203-118-187-67.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,

Your...@YourISP.com (Your Name) wrote:

> In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>, anim8rFSK
> <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <e84ff9ba-1415-4a81...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> > David <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cws-wonder-woman-prequel-amazon-524
> 002
> > >
> > > CW's 'Wonder Woman' Prequel 'Amazon' Gets New Writer: 'Heroes' Aron
> > > Eli Coleite
> > > by Lesley Goldberg
> > >
> > > The CW isn't done with Wonder Woman prequel Amazon.
> > >
> > > After the high-profile adaptation of the famed DC Comics character
> > > failed earn a pilot order this past season, the youth-skewing network
> > > ordered a new script for the origin story of Wonder Woman's alter-ego
> > > Diana of Themyscira.
> >
> > Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
> > CW to realize that that was the problem?
>
> Since it's CW, it's more likely that the previous script which was still
> to fitting with what's already been established, so they got a new writer
> in to butcher it even further. :-(

Damn. I wish that wasn't a good point. :(

>
>
>
> > > Speaking to reporters Thursday following the network's upfront
> > > presentation to advertisers in New York, CW president Mark Pedowitz
> > > noted original writer Amazon Allan Heinberg (Grey's Anatomy) was no
> > > longer working on the rewrite and the project is still a priority.
> > > Replacing him is scribe Aron Eli Coleite, a writer with geek credits
> > > including Heroes and The River.
> > >
> > > "It is being redeveloped, we're waiting for the script to come in; we
> > > haven't seen it yet," he said. "We are preparing to pilot it off-cycle
> > > should the script be what we want it to be. We do not want to produce
> > > something that doesn't work for that particular character -- it is the
> > > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."
> >
> > Uh, well, how many others can we name that are trickier? Anybody want
> > to go for 'all of them, I think'?
>
> "We do not want to produce something that doesn't work for that particular
> character" ... what, like the Smallvile drivel. :-(
>
>
> On a positive note, here in New Zealand, Sky TV has just launched a new
> channel playing lots of great (and not so great) old shows, including the
> original Lynda Carter "Wonder Woman" series. :-)

[Arthur Lipscomb]

Me too!

[Bill Steele]

In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

> it is the
> > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."

By tricky they mean "How can we change it completely and still keep the
name?" The underlying assumption is that comics are inherently stupid
and badly done, but "We can fix that."

[David Johnston]

The fact is, the Wonder Woman comic book itself has been struggling for
quite a long time.

[David]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 14:30:33 -0400, Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu>
wrote:

They have a point. How do you create an island that's nothing but
women? Do you open the can of worms and introduce Greek mythology?
Since it won't explicitly share the universe with Batman and Superman,
and since it's television, it needs to meet a threshold of realism.

[Your Name]

In article <ws21-3A15A6.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

It isn't just comic books ... most of the current lazy and talentless
generation of morons in Hollyweird think they have to "fix" everything
someone else created rather than bothering to actually think up their own
ideas. :-(

[David Johnston]

As opposed to which generation in which Hollywood wasn't adapting works
in other media?

[Dragon Lady]

"David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2g0dp8havdqi9ruud...@4ax.com...

An island with all women actually makes more sense than one with all men.
After all, women can leave the island, get pregnant, and come back and have
the child, thus continuing the tribe.
You also need to remember that the Amazon legends did not originate with
Wonder Woman.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <kn6vj0$a3c$1...@dont-email.me>,

An island of immortal women doesn't even need to do that.

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

>Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>CW to realize that that was the problem?

I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
they have something universally craptastic.

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ You can't spell 'disgust' without
/ / 'SGU' - Anim8rFSK

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on 5/18/2013 2:11 AM:

Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH

[Jim G.]

Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/18/2013 9:31 AM:

> On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>> CW to realize that that was the problem?
>
> I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
> CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
> they have something universally craptastic.

I don't want to sound like a CW homer, but at least they're *trying* to
provide the genre stuff that I want. Yeah, it's often lame, but they're
offering it, and in much larger quantities than Syfy or the other
networks these days...

[anim8rFSK]

In article <kn8hn6$lcm$7...@dont-email.me>,

Pre-Crisis they were thousands of years old, except for Diana, who isn't
even real. Post-Crisis they got that horrible reboot were NONE of them
were real; the entire population was clay animated by the souls of
murdered women, but all of them were still thousands of years old. I
don't know if they can be 'killed' or not, or if it matters, given that
it's debatable if they were ever even alive.
Currently, I don't know (nor care) what they are.

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
>as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.

And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:34 -0500, "Jim G."
<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/18/2013 9:31 AM:
>> On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>>> CW to realize that that was the problem?
>>
>> I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
>> CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
>> they have something universally craptastic.
>
>I don't want to sound like a CW homer, but at least they're *trying* to
>provide the genre stuff that I want. Yeah, it's often lame, but they're
>offering it, and in much larger quantities than Syfy or the other
>networks these days...

Indeed... I understand not wanting to bite the hand that's
feeding you. But then again they're not trying to feed you nor I, now
are they? No sir... they're trying to feed those fickle creatures
filled with estrogen that think (if I might use that word rather
loosely in this case) this sort of thing is cool to watch.

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on 5/18/2013 3:04 PM:

WW was one of the last of the New 52 for me to give up on (because I
initially liked where Azarello was taking things), but I finally gave up
on it a few months ago when I got the sense that Azarello was starting
to lose his mojo with the title.

[Jim G.]

Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:

> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
>
> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.

And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
dead stay dead?

[Jim G.]

Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:

> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:34 -0500, "Jim G."
> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/18/2013 9:31 AM:
>>> On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>>>> CW to realize that that was the problem?
>>>
>>> I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
>>> CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
>>> they have something universally craptastic.
>>
>> I don't want to sound like a CW homer, but at least they're *trying* to
>> provide the genre stuff that I want. Yeah, it's often lame, but they're
>> offering it, and in much larger quantities than Syfy or the other
>> networks these days...
>
> Indeed... I understand not wanting to bite the hand that's
> feeding you. But then again they're not trying to feed you nor I, now
> are they? No sir... they're trying to feed those fickle creatures
> filled with estrogen that think (if I might use that word rather
> loosely in this case) this sort of thing is cool to watch.

I hear you. But still ... baby steps. CULT wasn't all chicklet stuff.
ARROW isn't all chicklet stuff. I just hate to rag on the only station
that even seems to be making more than a token attempt at this sort of show.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me:

> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of
>>> immortal" as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be
>>> killed." And there hasn't always been a lot of consistency in
>>> the comic books, IIRC.
>>
>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>
> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does
> someone dead stay dead?
>

"And if you have a body, that only *proves* they're still alive."

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Bill Steele]

In article <kn5tde$9g7$1...@dont-email.me>,

Perhaps because they gave up on the bondage themes.

[Bill Steele]

In article <2g0dp8havdqi9ruud...@4ax.com>,

Realism? We don't need no steenking realism!

There's enough realism in real life. When I sit down in front of the TV
I want to escape into fantasy worlds, where doctors cure every disease,
cops catch every crook,love comes out right in the end and yes, where
there are people with superhuman powers who can deal with the big
problems. If they have to invoke Greek mythology or Norse mythology or
aliens or ghosts or Egyptian wizards or hard-water fumes, fine with me.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <kndlfg$o3m$7...@dont-email.me>,

I read a couple Supergirl/Power Girls this weekend (most recent issues);
I haven't got the *slightest* idea what's going on.

[William George Ferguson]

just to show off

> Greek mythology
Wonder Woman (well, it could be Hercules)

>or Norse mythology
Thor

>or aliens
Superman (or the Martian Manhunter)

>or ghosts
Spectre (or Deadman. The Phantom doesn't count, since he only pretended)

>or Egyptian wizards
Shazam (or Ibis, arguably Hawkman originally)

>or hard-water fumes,
Jay Garrick

>fine with me.

me too.

--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies

[Your Name]

In article <ws21-D09C56.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

Unfortauntely what we mostly get is cooking shows, "talent" shows,
bachelor/ette shows, wrestling, home repair shows, vote-me-off shows,
shows about booze-happy 20-something morons, and numerous other such
non-real "reality" drivel. :-(

[anim8rFSK]

In article <f7plp8lfu6i8deci7...@4ax.com>,

Is the Spectre a ghost? He's some sort of ancient spirit that inhabits
(mostly?) dead guys, but I'm not sure he himself is a ghost, or that
Corrigan is a Ghost Host. Deadman, absolutely.

>
> >or Egyptian wizards
> Shazam (or Ibis, arguably Hawkman originally)
>
> >or hard-water fumes,
> Jay Garrick
>
> >fine with me.
>
> me too.

--

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:02:19 -0500, "Jim G."
<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>> Indeed... I understand not wanting to bite the hand that's
>> feeding you. But then again they're not trying to feed you nor I, now
>> are they? No sir... they're trying to feed those fickle creatures
>> filled with estrogen that think (if I might use that word rather
>> loosely in this case) this sort of thing is cool to watch.
>
>I hear you. But still ... baby steps. CULT wasn't all chicklet stuff.
>ARROW isn't all chicklet stuff. I just hate to rag on the only station
>that even seems to be making more than a token attempt at this sort of show.

Arrow might not have been at first, given that Queen seemed to
be more mastermind and machismo... But when they started trying to
make Digger smart, Queen suddenly became the whinging man that women
fantasize about coddling. And while I hear the show's improved since
then, the damage was done and the magic of the show was gone in my
eyes.

I couldn't personally get into Cult. It reminded me too much
of another premise I had seen some time back (I think it was a web
series), that died a horrible death of banality.

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <ws21-D09C56.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote:

> Realism? We don't need no steenking realism!

Besides, it's all just metaphors. An "island" could just as easily be a
parallel universe. In that universe, the women run the show (giving us
the feminism angle), which has allowed them to create more advanced
technology (invisible jets, etc.). Suddenly we get a visitor (maybe on
purpose, maybe by accident) in the form of Wonder Woman. Seems like
that sets up all the standard Wonder Woman themes, but most of what I
know comes from Linda Carter playing the role at a good time for me as a
young man :-).

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
and probably your server, too.

[Bill Steele]

In article <f7plp8lfu6i8deci7...@4ax.com>,
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >There's enough realism in real life. When I sit down in front of the TV
> >I want to escape into fantasy worlds, where doctors cure every disease,
> >cops catch every crook,love comes out right in the end and yes, where
> >there are people with superhuman powers who can deal with the big
> >problems. If they have to invoke
>
> just to show off

A little more...

>
> > Greek mythology
> Wonder Woman (well, it could be Hercules)

and Xena

>
> >or Norse mythology
> Thor
>
> >or aliens
> Superman (or the Martian Manhunter)

The latter-day Hawkman. And the people behind Green Lantern and the
Greatest American Hero.

>
> >or ghosts
> Spectre (or Deadman. The Phantom doesn't count, since he only pretended)

Randall and Hopkirk.

>
> >or Egyptian wizards
> Shazam (or Ibis, arguably Hawkman originally)

I'd say original Hawkman was science fiction, unless a wizard made ninth
metal. And some of the powers of Shazam come from the Greeks. Let's just
say mythology in general.
And I left out magic in general. Zatara/Zatanna. Johnny Thunder.

> >or hard-water fumes,
> Jay Garrick

Score! I didn't think anybody would get that one.
The general category is silly, made-up science. Jake 2.0, Captain Nice.

We're stretching this beyond TV shows...

[Bill Steele]

In article <anim8rfsk-C588D...@news.easynews.com>,

anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

> Is the Spectre a ghost? He's some sort of ancient spirit that inhabits
> (mostly?) dead guys, but I'm not sure he himself is a ghost, or that
> Corrigan is a Ghost Host.

Haven't checked lately, but in Golden Age, Corrigan dies and comes back
and reinhabits his old body. I forget whether he transforms bodily or
zips out of his body when he needs to be The Spectre.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <ws21-3EFB6A.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

Corrigan is a ghost, maybe, but the Spectre, not so much, AFAIK. The
Spectre is some sort of ancient being that inhabits dead people, but I
don't know if he's using the physical Corrigan (in which case Corrigan
is more of a zombie) or just manifesting a likeness of Corrigan or
actually hanging on to Corrigan's ghost and making solid ...

[shawn]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:01:49 -0500, "Jim G."

<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
>>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
>>
>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>
>And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
>dead stay dead?

When they no longer sell comic books. ;)

Seriously that's one issue with comic books. As long as someone can
come up with an idea for a character that will sell copies they can
always bring a character back. One writer might drop a character but
then another takes over the job and brings that character back to
life. It never ends.

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on 5/20/2013 2:26 PM:

Marvel and DC are just phoning it in lately. Minimal content, minimal
plot, lots of white spaces on the pages (for DC, at least), and
basically sucktacular. But people still flock (relatively speaking) to
those big name comics while mostly ignoring the awesome work being done
at the smaller imprints. It's like the people who'd rather watch a nice,
safe CBS rerun rather than change the channel to FX or BBCA, or
something. Heck, it's the same with books, too. The James Pattersons out
there have the name recognition and get the sales, even though they
stopped trying once they got the name recognition, and even though other
terrific authors struggle to hold on to a publisher.

Far too many people, in far too many fields, confuse "popular" with "good."

Okay, I'm done sorta-ranting now. :)

[Jim G.]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy sent the following on 5/20/2013 12:30 PM:

> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
> news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of
>>>> immortal" as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be
>>>> killed." And there hasn't always been a lot of consistency in
>>>> the comic books, IIRC.
>>>
>>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>>
>> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does
>> someone dead stay dead?
>>
> "And if you have a body, that only *proves* they're still alive."

Well, duh. Since they can't die, you *know* that any corpse must be a
fake. :)

[Jim G.]

Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/21/2013 7:03 AM:

> On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:02:19 -0500, "Jim G."
> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Indeed... I understand not wanting to bite the hand that's
>>> feeding you. But then again they're not trying to feed you nor I, now
>>> are they? No sir... they're trying to feed those fickle creatures
>>> filled with estrogen that think (if I might use that word rather
>>> loosely in this case) this sort of thing is cool to watch.
>>
>> I hear you. But still ... baby steps. CULT wasn't all chicklet stuff.
>> ARROW isn't all chicklet stuff. I just hate to rag on the only station
>> that even seems to be making more than a token attempt at this sort of show.
>
> Arrow might not have been at first, given that Queen seemed to
> be more mastermind and machismo... But when they started trying to
> make Digger smart, Queen suddenly became the whinging man that women
> fantasize about coddling. And while I hear the show's improved since
> then, the damage was done and the magic of the show was gone in my
> eyes.

I bailed before that, apparently. The stupid got to me before any
estrogenization (yeah, I just made it up) of the main character.

> I couldn't personally get into Cult. It reminded me too much
> of another premise I had seen some time back (I think it was a web
> series), that died a horrible death of banality.

I'll be bitter about CULT for a long time, I think.

[Jim G.]

shawn sent the following on 5/21/2013 1:37 PM:

Yep. And everyone knows it. That's why it was so funny not too long ago
when Bendis et al killed of Professor X and tried to insist that it was
a Really Big Deal. Heh. Of course it's a big deal. Until it's not anymore.

[Your Name]

>
> CW's Wonder Woman project gets new writer

Now all it needs is a new producer, a new director, probably a new cast,
and a new network ... then we'll be good to go. ;-)

[Ken from Chicago]

"David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e84ff9ba-1415-4a81...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cws-wonder-woman-prequel-amazon-524002
>
> CW's 'Wonder Woman' Prequel 'Amazon' Gets New Writer: 'Heroes' Aron
> Eli Coleite
> by Lesley Goldberg
>
> The CW isn't done with Wonder Woman prequel Amazon.
>
> After the high-profile adaptation of the famed DC Comics character
> failed earn a pilot order this past season, the youth-skewing network
> ordered a new script for the origin story of Wonder Woman's alter-ego
> Diana of Themyscira.
>
> Speaking to reporters Thursday following the network's upfront
> presentation to advertisers in New York, CW president Mark Pedowitz
> noted original writer Amazon Allan Heinberg (Grey's Anatomy) was no
> longer working on the rewrite and the project is still a priority.
> Replacing him is scribe Aron Eli Coleite, a writer with geek credits
> including Heroes and The River.
>
> "It is being redeveloped, we're waiting for the script to come in; we
> haven't seen it yet," he said. "We are preparing to pilot it off-cycle
> should the script be what we want it to be. We do not want to produce
> something that doesn't work for that particular character -- it is the

> trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."

That's because Wonder Woman doesn't have a secret identity or even a public
identity. She's only known for her superheroics, but what does Diana do
during her off hours? Clark's a reporter. Bruce's playboy billionnaire.
Barry's a police scientist. Hal's a test pilot. Oliver's a (rich or poor
depending on the story) philanthropist. Zatanna's a stage magician. Dinah's
florist (& daughter of vigilante). Jonn is a detective. Steve is a soldier /
government agent. Tony's a playboy CEO inventor. Bruce is a scientist.
Janet's a model. Henry's a scientist.

Is Diana an Air Force secretary / secret agent ala the Lynda Carter series
or an ambassador from Themyscira or business CEO ala the aborted David E.
Kelley series?

The CEO / billionaire angle seems kinda easy and repetitious after Batman
Begins, Iron-Man and Arrow. The secret agent angle would be easy to make a
tv series, especially in the wake of NIKITA's 3.5 season run.

The ambassador angle could work in allowing her to have a stable set and
regular supporting cast, even allowing Steve Rogers to act as her official
contact with the Air Force / government, plus she could have people come to
her with problems while allowing her discover problems on her own that can
be solved by superheroism or simply by using her position as ambassador to
appeal to the public and TPTB thru the press.

I'm also partial to her touring the planet going from town to town, meeting
folk on a one-to-one basis and helping out where she can.

> Amazonhad strong buzz going into pilot season, with the network
> already eyeing potential leads. Talking to reporters in January at the
> Television Critics Association's winter press tour, Pedowitz said his
> development team was waiting to see the script and was "busy casting
> Diana."
>
> "Hopefully the script works the way we want," Pedowitz told THR,
> noting that the origin story of Diana Prince would be set in the
> present day -- instead of the character's original World War II-era
> origin -- with the network looking at both new and established
> actresses for the part. Pedowitz suggested that his team would
> continue to explore other DC properties as well.
> Wonder Woman has had a string of bad luck at the broadcast networks.
> David E. Kelley tried unsuccessfully to bring the franchise to NBC in
> 2011 with Friday Night Lights' Adrianne Palicki attached. Despite
> landing a pilot order, NBC ultimately passed on the drama that
> featured Diana as a businesswoman/shy woman.

The 3 faces of Diana angle seemed bizarre even for Kelley, more like Diana
had a split personality instead of a standard split identity ala Clark /
Superman or even Clark / Superman / Kal-El.

> "As well crafted and contemporized as [the Kelley pilot] was, it was a
> big and radical shift for viewers to embrace this new idea -- and that
> may, to some degree, have had to do with why it didn�t make it,"
> Warner Bros. TV president Peter Roth told THR in 2011, noting at the
> time that the character's future at another network was to be
> determined.
>
> The CW's effort marked the latest in a long line of big- and small-
> screen takes on the famed heroine, following the 1975-79 TV series
> starring Lynda Carter. In 2005, Warner Bros. announced Joss Whedon
> (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) would write and direct a film adaptation,
> which never materialized.

What? Whedon writer a series about a super-powered female? PASS!

> The comics, meanwhile, continue to reboot the hero, most recently
> connecting her romantically with Superman after a short-lived costume
> change that evolved Wonder Woman's costume from a sexy one-piece to
> include pants.

When the frell did Wonder Woman have pants in the comic books--except for
that 1960s/1970s mod white suit? As I recall, as soon as the Kelley series
got nixed by NBC, the pants were nixed in the comics--before they debuted in
series (tho after they appeared in ads).

> Coleite, whose r�sum� also includes Crossing Jordan, is repped by CAA
> and Jackoway Tyerman.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Bill Steele" <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote in message
news:ws21-3A15A6.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...

> In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>

>> it is the
>> > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."
>

> By tricky they mean "How can we change it completely and still keep the
> name?" The underlying assumption is that comics are inherently stupid
> and badly done, but "We can fix that."

WHICH underlying comic?
--Golden Age, WW2 fighter of Nazis, user of Atlantean high technology?
--Silver Age, Super fast runner, invisible jet pilot?
--Post Crisis, Clay origin, Warrior, Invisible jet pilot, glider of the air?
--Post Zero Hour, Straight up flyer, strength rivaling Superman's?
--Post Flashpoint, Daughter of Zeus, Whose boyfriend is Superman?

The hard truth is that the comics have been contradictory in their portrayal
of Wonder Woman (and a ton of superheroes over the past 30-70 years). Any
adaptation has to pick and choose which version, or which elements of
various version to include, and which to omit--much to the consternation of
many comic book fans.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Bill Steele]

In article <anim8rfsk-352C3...@news.easynews.com>,

Like I said, I don't know what's been happening lately, but in the
Golden Age he was just a ghost on his own. A very powerful ghost. The
ability to become a giant and stomp on people isn't something you
usually associate with ghosts.

Reminds me of another character whose brother died and came back, and
when the brother's ghost merged with his body he became super. Anybody
remember what that was?"

[Bill Steele]

In article <knisbd$tc4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Good point. I think the real problem is that they always seem to insist
on introducing new stuff that wasn't in the source at all. Batman's body
armor (as an excuse for fake muscles) ands the goofy new car, Wonder
Woman's twirl and the truth-telling lasso, Ollie's mother issues, The
Shadow clouding men's minds.

The Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was almost completely faithful to the
comics, and ran a long time. Superman has managed to stick to the script
too (except for telekinesis ands the whole Ghost of Jor-El business),
which I think is because DC has been more protective. After that the
writers seem to think they can muck around with anything.

BTW, Golden Age WW was clay and had the invisible plane. And you left
out the many faces of Etta Candy.

[Ken from Chicago]

"Bill Steele" <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote in message

news:ws21-8A6D32.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...

The body armor makes sense for someone without powers fighting criminals
with guns. However I utterly despise the tumbler and not fond of most of the
Batmobiles, not even BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES version. I liked the CBS
Saturday morning animated version because of its sleek aerodynamic design
and its ability to travel in the water. My favorite is THE BATMAN's. It was
sleek, SHORT (and thus more maneuverable with tighter turn ratios--unlike so
many longer, or ridiculously long Batmobiles), low to the ground (meaning it
could fit low clearance tunnels by not having ridiculously tall fins, and
easier to hide in traffic, unlike that ridiculous tumbler that Nolan had)
and powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwhF4pWBf6c

> Woman's twirl and the truth-telling lasso, Ollie's mother issues, The
> Shadow clouding men's minds.

Wonder Woman's twirl was Lynda Carter's invention to explain how she changed
costumes. Personally, I like it. The Lasso of Truth was there from the
beginning, not from any adaptation.

> The Lynda Carter Wonder Woman was almost completely faithful to the
> comics, and ran a long time. Superman has managed to stick to the script
> too (except for telekinesis ands the whole Ghost of Jor-El business),
> which I think is because DC has been more protective. After that the
> writers seem to think they can muck around with anything.

SMALLVILLE also had Kryptonians visiting Earth long before Kal-El. And of
course Chloe was a wholly an invented character from the tv show that worked
her way into the comics much as Harley Quinn did from B:TAS and Firestar did
from SPIDER-MAN & HIS AMAZING SPIDER-FRIENDS.

> BTW, Golden Age WW was clay and had the invisible plane. And you left
> out the many faces of Etta Candy.

See? Even more conflicting elements.

-- Ken from Chicago

[David Johnston]

Frank Miller introduced the idea that the chest insignia's function was
to encourage people to shoot at chest armor built into the suit rather
than into the less armoured parts in The Dark Knight Returns in 1986.
The movie "muscle" suit was introduced in 1989

(as an excuse for fake muscles) ands the goofy new car, Wonder
> Woman's twirland the truth-telling lasso,

The lasso of truth dates back to Marsden, the creator of both Wonder
Woman and the polygraph. Wonder Woman could change her clothes at super
speed as well. The challenge was to depict that in a way that wouldn't
look like Benny Hill on television.

Ollie's mother issues, The
> Shadow clouding men's minds.

Necessary due to the constraints of radio.

[David Johnston]

Brother Voodoo? The 3-D Man?

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>The Shadow clouding men's minds.

>Necessary due to the constraints of radio.

Radio has no constraints at all, dude. Think about why that's obvious.

[David Johnston]

Not being able to show people what's happening is a constraint. Being
restricted to a half an hour is another.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <ws21-45A350.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

Well, it could apply to complications surrounding Boston and Cleveland
Brand, but I don't think that's what you're going for.

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 14:02:04 -0500, "Jim G."
<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>> Arrow might not have been at first, given that Queen seemed to
>> be more mastermind and machismo... But when they started trying to
>> make Digger smart, Queen suddenly became the whinging man that women
>> fantasize about coddling. And while I hear the show's improved since
>> then, the damage was done and the magic of the show was gone in my
>> eyes.
>
>I bailed before that, apparently. The stupid got to me before any
>estrogenization (yeah, I just made it up) of the main character.

True. Looking back, I admit that the premise of the show was
pretty thin. I just stuck around for the 6-pack and the blue eyes. I
was waiting to see whether he was actually an actor, or a meat puppet.

>> I couldn't personally get into Cult. It reminded me too much
>> of another premise I had seen some time back (I think it was a web
>> series), that died a horrible death of banality.
>
>I'll be bitter about CULT for a long time, I think.

Bless. I know that feeling too well. I've gone through that
sort of thing more times than I can count.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <kniish$46e$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:

I thought she was a clothing designer?

[Ken from Chicago]

"David Johnston" <Da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:knjcir$v0$1...@dont-email.me...

Exactly. Superman's "Up, up, and away" was a radio show invention as a way
of indicating that Superman had taken off into flight.

-- Ken from Chicago

[David Johnston]

On 5/22/2013 8:01 AM, Ken from Chicago wrote:

> Is Diana an Air Force secretary / secret agent ala the Lynda Carter
> series or an ambassador from Themyscira or business CEO ala the aborted
> David E. Kelley series?
>
> The CEO / billionaire angle seems kinda easy and repetitious after
> Batman Begins, Iron-Man and Arrow. The secret agent angle would be easy
> to make a tv series, especially in the wake of NIKITA's 3.5 season run.

I've always wanted to see a version of Wonder Woman that actually dealt
with her being a double agent.

>
> When the frell did Wonder Woman have pants in the comic books--except
> for that 1960s/1970s mod white suit? As I recall, as soon as the Kelley
> series got nixed by NBC, the pants were nixed in the comics--before they
> debuted in series (tho after they appeared in ads).

She had an outfit with pants and a leather jacket that lasted until she
reversed the history tampering.

[Ken from Chicago]

"anim8rFSK" <anim...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:anim8rfsk-0E8ED...@news.easynews.com...

> In article <kniish$46e$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

>> Janet's a model.
>
> I thought she was a clothing designer?

D'OH! You're right. I'm wrong.

Janet Van Dyne's a fashion DESIGNER, not a fashion model.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kniish$46e$1...@dont-email.me...

> "David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e84ff9ba-1415-4a81...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

>> The comics, meanwhile, continue to reboot the hero, most recently
>> connecting her romantically with Superman after a short-lived costume
>> change that evolved Wonder Woman's costume from a sexy one-piece to
>> include pants.
>
> When the frell did Wonder Woman have pants in the comic books--except for
> that 1960s/1970s mod white suit? As I recall, as soon as the Kelley series
> got nixed by NBC, the pants were nixed in the comics--before they debuted
> in series (tho after they appeared in ads).

Oh wait, I totally suppressed her jacket with jeans costume.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Adam H. Kerman]

Show people what's happening? You have absolutely no clue as to what
radio is, do you. You describe to people what's happening, and let them
imagine it for themselves.

Superhero programs on radio were typically serials. They were NOT restricted
to half an hour, but you did need to work in a crisis to end upon.

[David Johnston]

On 5/22/2013 5:03 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 5/22/2013 3:07 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>>>>> The Shadow clouding men's minds.
>
>>>> Necessary due to the constraints of radio.
>
>>> Radio has no constraints at all, dude. Think about why that's obvious.
>
>> Not being able to show people what's happening is a constraint. Being
>> restricted to a half an hour is another.
>
> Show people what's happening? You have absolutely no clue as to what
> radio is, do you. You describe to people what's happening,

Except of course that radio shows in those days did not have narrators
giving blow by blow descriptions of every move. It took too long, and
was thought to take the audience out of the story. If they were going
to describe what was happening, they had to have characters talk out
loud about what was happening, ostensibly to each other. Which is why
so many old-timey heroes had to have a sidekick.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <knjevc$ehh$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:

> "anim8rFSK" <anim...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:anim8rfsk-0E8ED...@news.easynews.com...
> > In article <kniish$46e$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Janet's a model.
> >
> > I thought she was a clothing designer?
>
> D'OH! You're right. I'm wrong.
>
> Janet Van Dyne's a fashion DESIGNER, not a fashion model.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago

The best part is, we both knew who she was, just from the first name. :D

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/22/2013 5:03 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>On 5/22/2013 3:07 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>>>>>The Shadow clouding men's minds.

>>>>>Necessary due to the constraints of radio.

>>>>Radio has no constraints at all, dude. Think about why that's obvious.

>>>Not being able to show people what's happening is a constraint. Being
>>>restricted to a half an hour is another.

>>Show people what's happening? You have absolutely no clue as to what
>>radio is, do you. You describe to people what's happening,

>Except of course that radio shows in those days did not have narrators
>giving blow by blow descriptions of every move.

Again, Johnston, you are 100% ignorant of radio. That's unnecessary.

>It took too long, and was thought to take the audience out of the story.
>If they were going to describe what was happening, they had to have
>characters talk out loud about what was happening, ostensibly to each
>other. Which is why so many old-timey heroes had to have a sidekick.

There were badly-written sidekicks, like Clancy on Mr. Keen. The writers
were ordered to talk down to the audience and describe every action. In
fact, the characters had to address each other by name with each change
of speaker. That was the Hummerts' style and they produced numerous shows.

Bad writing exists in all genres. In any event, not all sidekicks were
misused. Just because dialogue and narration was required didn't make
radio a constrained medium as you claim.

You're an unimaginative fool, Johnston. You, the listener, create the
images in your own mind. It's too bad you lack that ability.

[Ken from Chicago]

"anim8rFSK" <anim...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:anim8rfsk-F22D7...@news.easynews.com...

Exactly, and we knew she worked in fashion. The problem with Diana is we
can't do something similar about his secret identity profession.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"David Johnston" <Da...@block.net> wrote in message

news:knjers$drg$1...@dont-email.me...

Yeah, I blanked on that hideous jackets and jeans outfit that I think was
post-Infinite Crisis or post-Flashpoint. The general consensus was lose the
jacket, and possibly keep the pants.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:2g0dp8havdqi9ruud...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 17 May 2013 14:30:33 -0400, Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>,
>> anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>>

>>> it is the
>>> > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."
>>

>>By tricky they mean "How can we change it completely and still keep the
>>name?" The underlying assumption is that comics are inherently stupid
>>and badly done, but "We can fix that."
>

> They have a point. How do you create an island that's nothing but
> women? Do you open the can of worms and introduce Greek mythology?
> Since it won't explicitly share the universe with Batman and Superman,
> and since it's television, it needs to meet a threshold of realism.

SUPERNATURAL
REAPER
SMALLVILLE

And that's just the CW.

THE X-FILES
QUANTUM LEAP
LOST

Wonder Woman's various histories would easily cross the threshold of
"realism" that TPTB have for television.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:kn8hnt$lcm$8...@dont-email.me...
> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/18/2013 9:31 AM:
>> On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>>> CW to realize that that was the problem?
>>
>> I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
>> CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
>> they have something universally craptastic.
>
> I don't want to sound like a CW homer, but at least they're *trying* to
> provide the genre stuff that I want. Yeah, it's often lame, but they're
> offering it, and in much larger quantities than Syfy or the other networks
> these days...

>
> --
> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH

Thus the eternal debate, how harshly do you want to criticize a show and
risk:
--not only it being cancelled but TPTB deciding it's not worth the effort to
make that kind of show anymore
VS
--encouraging a flawed show with potential in the hopes of that show getting
better and TPTB opting to take the risk of making more of that kind of show
VS
--encouraging a flawed show with potential and that encouragement is
misinterpreted to keep making the show as is, or even making it even more
flawed and TPTB using that as a green like to churn out even worse versions
of the kind of show you like.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Dragon Lady" <sgt...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kn6vj0$a3c$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "David" <diml...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2g0dp8havdqi9ruud...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2013 14:30:33 -0400, Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article <anim8rfsk-8810E...@news.easynews.com>,
>>> anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> it is the
>>>> > trickiest of all the DC characters to get done."
>>>
>>>By tricky they mean "How can we change it completely and still keep the
>>>name?" The underlying assumption is that comics are inherently stupid
>>>and badly done, but "We can fix that."
>>
>> They have a point. How do you create an island that's nothing but
>> women? Do you open the can of worms and introduce Greek mythology?
>> Since it won't explicitly share the universe with Batman and Superman,
>> and since it's television, it needs to meet a threshold of realism.
>

> An island with all women actually makes more sense than one with all men.
> After all, women can leave the island, get pregnant, and come back and
> have the child, thus continuing the tribe.
> You also need to remember that the Amazon legends did not originate with
> Wonder Woman.

A guy could easily leave the island, father a boy and bring said boy back to
the island--or simply kidnap a boy, like many armies throughout history did,
perhaps even arguing they are "freeing" said boys for a better life.

Btw, women could also kidnap girls for the island--or argue they are
"freeing" said girls from varying levels of misogyny that have existed in
various societies throughout history.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Bill Steele" <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote in message

news:ws21-FC9074.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
> In article <f7plp8lfu6i8deci7...@4ax.com>,
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> >There's enough realism in real life. When I sit down in front of the TV
>> >I want to escape into fantasy worlds, where doctors cure every disease,
>> >cops catch every crook,love comes out right in the end and yes, where
>> >there are people with superhuman powers who can deal with the big
>> >problems. If they have to invoke
>>
>> just to show off
>
> A little more...
>>
>> > Greek mythology
>> Wonder Woman (well, it could be Hercules)
> and Xena

Hercules, Legendary Journeys, best buds of Marvel's Thor and DC's version
who raped Wonder Woman's mother in one version of her origin story and is
her brother in another version.

>> >or Norse mythology
>> Thor

Including Odin, Loki, Baldur, Sif, the Warriors Three, et al.

>> >or aliens
>> Superman (or the Martian Manhunter)
> The latter-day Hawkman. And the people behind Green Lantern and the
> Greatest American Hero.

Starfire, Venom, Silver Surfer, Sentinel, Rom the Space Knight, Legion of
Super Heroes, et al.

>> >or ghosts
>> Spectre (or Deadman. The Phantom doesn't count, since he only pretended)
> Randall and Hopkirk.
>>
>> >or Egyptian wizards
>> Shazam (or Ibis, arguably Hawkman originally)
> I'd say original Hawkman was science fiction, unless a wizard made ninth

What, no Isis?

> metal. And some of the powers of Shazam come from the Greeks. Let's just
> say mythology in general.

Aztek

> And I left out magic in general. Zatara/Zatanna. Johnny Thunder.
>
>
>> >or hard-water fumes,
>> Jay Garrick
> Score! I didn't think anybody would get that one.

Some of us even remember Mopee, no matter how much we don't want to.

> The general category is silly, made-up science. Jake 2.0, Captain Nice.

Bizarro, Ambush Bug, Matter-Eater Lad

> We're stretching this beyond TV shows...

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message

news:kngg2q$va6$4...@dont-email.me...
> anim8rFSK sent the following on 5/20/2013 2:26 PM:

<snip>

>> I read a couple Supergirl/Power Girls this weekend (most recent issues);
>> I haven't got the *slightest* idea what's going on.
>
> Marvel and DC are just phoning it in lately. Minimal content, minimal
> plot, lots of white spaces on the pages (for DC, at least), and basically
> sucktacular. But people still flock (relatively speaking) to those big
> name comics while mostly ignoring the awesome work being done at the
> smaller imprints. It's like the people who'd rather watch a nice, safe CBS
> rerun rather than change the channel to FX or BBCA, or something. Heck,
> it's the same with books, too. The James Pattersons out there have the
> name recognition and get the sales, even though they stopped trying once
> they got the name recognition, and even though other terrific authors
> struggle to hold on to a publisher.
>
> Far too many people, in far too many fields, confuse "popular" with
> "good."
>
> Okay, I'm done sorta-ranting now. :)

Or are you? (Dun, dun, dunnnnn!)

> --
> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message

news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me...
> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
>>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
>>
>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>
> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
> dead stay dead?

>
> --
> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH

When their death inspires someone to become a hero.

Uncle Ben
Jor-El & Lara
Thomas & Martha Wayne
Frank Castle's family

-- Ken from Chicago

[anim8rFSK]

In article <knl113$4i2$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:

Came back

> Jor-El & Lara

Came back

> Thomas & Martha Wayne

Came back

> Frank Castle's family

No idea

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <ws21-8A6D32.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote:

> I think the real problem is that they always seem to insist
> on introducing new stuff that wasn't in the source at all.

I think the bigger problem is introducing things that are contradictory
to the world/character. Give a superhero a new power/gizmo and the fan
can quite easily suspend disbelief if it makes sense to the overall
story. But, for example, what do you *do* with Wonder Woman in the
modern world? Regardless of how you construct her origins, it's a tough
sell to drop her into a world where America is both an ally and at war
with various countries around the world that make it a point to oppress
women much worse. Yeah, you can fabricate some fake villain for her to
concentrate on, but that's pretty insulting all around (and a major
reason why I outgrew comic books).

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
and probably your server, too.

[Ken from Chicago]

"anim8rFSK" <anim...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:anim8rfsk-C4157...@news.easynews.com...

Time travel doesn't count. Clones, robots, alternate dimensional versions,
etc don't count either. They died. They keep on being dead. They are dead
now.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Doc O'Leary" <drolear...@2q2013.subsume.com> wrote in message
news:droleary.usenet-5C...@news.eternal-september.org...

That's the point. You take Wonder Woman from Themyscira with literally "Old
World" values and drop her in the Modern World and play up the contrast from
her growing up in a world where you said what you meant and meant what you
said to a world of legalese, political spin and marketing hype, a world
filled with casual deception amongst so-called friends, family and loved
ones and callous apathy toward the downtrodden, and where even some of the
downtrodden can exploit your charity for selfish ends.

It's a classic fish out of water trope is decades old:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FishOutOfWater

-- Ken from Chicago

[David Johnston]

They weren't jeans but yes the jacket was kind of a mistake, I think.

http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/newwwcostume.jpg

With pants but without jacket:

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/Wonder-Woman-New-52-ArtFX-Statue.jpg

[David Johnston]

On 5/23/2013 8:08 AM, anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <knl113$4i2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me...
>>> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>>>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
>>>>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>>>>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>>>
>>> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
>>> dead stay dead?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
>>> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH
>>
>> When their death inspires someone to become a hero.
>>
>> Uncle Ben
>
> Came back

No he didn't. "A" Ben Parker showed up for a little while but it wasn't
the same guy as the one who died and he went away again.

>
>> Jor-El & Lara
>
> Came back

I'm pretty sure they're still dead.

>
>> Thomas & Martha Wayne
>
> Came back

While occasionally Batman's existence has been retroactively prevented
by undoing their deaths, they always revert to their true state.

[David Johnston]

That's not nearly so easy. You have to hang around and wait to find out
if she's actually pregnant and then you have be there around the birth
as well, and kidnap the boy. All the women have to do is have some one
night stands.

[Bill Steele]

In article <knjel5$cso$1...@dont-email.me>,

My favorite example was on the Lone Ranger:

Bang! "Ow, My hand!"

[Bill Steele]

In article <knjb6q$pa2$1...@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> The lasso of truth dates back to Marsden, the creator of both Wonder
> Woman and the polygraph. Wonder Woman could change her clothes at super
> speed as well. The challenge was to depict that in a way that wouldn't
> look like Benny Hill on television.

In Marsden/Golden Age, the lasso compelled a person to obey any command
of the holder -- probably the ultimate Dom fantasy. The TV show reduced
that to just telling the truth.

You're right that they probably introduced the twirl to get the change
over quickly, just like Chris Reeve diving out the window and dissolving
into Superman. But then they took it too seriously. There was am episode
where Diana was chained to something, and she couldn't change into
Wonder Woman because the chain wouldn't let her twirl, and that implied
she had none of her strength without the "magic" change.

>
> The
> > Shadow clouding men's minds.
>
> Necessary due to the constraints of radio.

Much as I've always hated that departure from the pulps, it was a stroke
of genius to have an invisible character in an inviosible medium. And a
necessary adaptation, since you couldn't show what he actually did. But
an unnecessary adaptation when they made the movie. I'm still waiting
for a movie or TV show to do it right.

[David Johnston]

On 5/23/2013 1:50 PM, Bill Steele wrote:
> In article <knjb6q$pa2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>> The lasso of truth dates back to Marsden, the creator of both Wonder
>> Woman and the polygraph. Wonder Woman could change her clothes at super
>> speed as well. The challenge was to depict that in a way that wouldn't
>> look like Benny Hill on television.
>
> In Marsden/Golden Age, the lasso compelled a person to obey any command
> of the holder -- probably the ultimate Dom fantasy. The TV show reduced
> that to just telling the truth.
>
> You're right that they probably introduced the twirl to get the change
> over quickly, just like Chris Reeve diving out the window and dissolving
> into Superman. But then they took it too seriously. There was am episode
> where Diana was chained to something, and she couldn't change into
> Wonder Woman because the chain wouldn't let her twirl, and that implied
> she had none of her strength without the "magic" change.

Oh yeah. That was actually in the first episode of the series. The
outside world was so contaminated by testosterone or something that she
would lose her powers unless she was in her costume that somehow
protected her. I shrugged. It wasn't any dumber than the constraints
she had in the comics.

>
>>
>> The
>>> Shadow clouding men's minds.
>>
>> Necessary due to the constraints of radio.
>
> Much as I've always hated that departure from the pulps, it was a stroke
> of genius to have an invisible character in an inviosible medium. And a
> necessary adaptation, since you couldn't show what he actually did. But
> an unnecessary adaptation when they made the movie.

Well it wasn't an adaptation by then. The hypnosis power had long since
migrated into the novels just because it was cool.

[shawn]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 15:10:32 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

>On 5/23/2013 1:50 PM, Bill Steele wrote:
>> In article <knjb6q$pa2$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The lasso of truth dates back to Marsden, the creator of both Wonder
>>> Woman and the polygraph. Wonder Woman could change her clothes at super
>>> speed as well. The challenge was to depict that in a way that wouldn't
>>> look like Benny Hill on television.
>>
>> In Marsden/Golden Age, the lasso compelled a person to obey any command
>> of the holder -- probably the ultimate Dom fantasy. The TV show reduced
>> that to just telling the truth.
>>
>> You're right that they probably introduced the twirl to get the change
>> over quickly, just like Chris Reeve diving out the window and dissolving
>> into Superman. But then they took it too seriously. There was am episode
>> where Diana was chained to something, and she couldn't change into
>> Wonder Woman because the chain wouldn't let her twirl, and that implied
>> she had none of her strength without the "magic" change.
>
>Oh yeah. That was actually in the first episode of the series. The
>outside world was so contaminated by testosterone or something that she
>would lose her powers unless she was in her costume that somehow
>protected her. I shrugged. It wasn't any dumber than the constraints
>she had in the comics.

It also avoids some of the issues you have with Superman/Superboy.
Given how dangerous their world is there's bound to some occasion
where you end up showing super strength (if you have it) while in your
civilian clothes. If she's just a normal person while not in her
costume then she can't make that mistake.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <ws21-62EFBC.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote:

> In article <knjb6q$pa2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
> > The lasso of truth dates back to Marsden, the creator of both Wonder
> > Woman and the polygraph. Wonder Woman could change her clothes at super
> > speed as well. The challenge was to depict that in a way that wouldn't
> > look like Benny Hill on television.
>
> In Marsden/Golden Age, the lasso compelled a person to obey any command
> of the holder -- probably the ultimate Dom fantasy. The TV show reduced
> that to just telling the truth.
>
> You're right that they probably introduced the twirl to get the change
> over quickly, just like Chris Reeve diving out the window and dissolving
> into Superman. But then they took it too seriously. There was am episode
> where Diana was chained to something, and she couldn't change into
> Wonder Woman because the chain wouldn't let her twirl, and that implied
> she had none of her strength without the "magic" change.

That was just stupid. She *looks* exactly the same either way, so the
twirl changes her clothes and ... depowers her???? I'd opt for staying
powered up and change my damn clothes the old fashioned way.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <knlduv$do9$1...@dont-email.me>,

How about zombies? The Waynes came back that way. The Silver Age
Jor-El and Lara escaped in a rocket that Super .. boy, I think, found
and they conveniently forgot about in future issues, but they're
floating out there, much like the Kara from Aliens. Hell, in the
uberlame upcoming MAN OF STEEL crapfest, the whole fucking planet of
Krypton is still alive.

[Your Name]

In article <anim8rfsk-B36B4...@news.easynews.com>, anim8rFSK

The "twirl" also changes her hair style and often puts glasses on her.
Just lkike Superman - wearing glasses means people don't recognise you.

Many of the superheroes are rather ridiculous when it comes to their two
characters.

Superman is a lot like CSI Miami's Horatio Caine ... glasses on, glasses
off, glasses on, ... ;-)

The rather silly "Arrow" TV series were all he does is put on a hoodie and
grab a longbow. :-\ (I've never even seen Green Arrow comic books, so I
don't know what hapens there.) Green Hornet only changes his clothes and
puts on a tiny little black mask.

[anim8rFSK]

In article
<YourName-240...@203-118-187-198.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,

Pretty much the same thing. Plus he sports a very distinctive yellow
goatee.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <bc7tp8t4tokta24mb...@4ax.com>,

But, you know, who *cares* if she makes the mistake? It's not like she
has some big vested interest in her civilian identity, like Bruce or
Clark.

[David Johnston]

More like Kim Philby.

[David Johnston]

On 5/24/2013 1:07 AM, Your Name wrote:

>
> Superman is a lot like CSI Miami's Horatio Caine ... glasses on, glasses
> off, glasses on, ... ;-)
>
> The rather silly "Arrow" TV series were all he does is put on a hoodie and
> grab a longbow. :-\

Since he always operates at night, that's a pretty plausible way to keep
people from ever getting a good look at him. Hoodies are used the same
way in real life.

(I've never even seen Green Arrow comic books, so I
> don't know what hapens there.)

It's much, much less believable considering that he wears a domino mask
that doesn't distract at all from his highly distinctive beard. Then
again someone wrote a scene a few years back where someone casually told
him "Of course we know who you are."

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <knlf2e$k9r$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Doc O'Leary" <drolear...@2q2013.subsume.com> wrote in message
> news:droleary.usenet-5C...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > In article <ws21-8A6D32.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
> > Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I think the real problem is that they always seem to insist
> >> on introducing new stuff that wasn't in the source at all.
> >
> > I think the bigger problem is introducing things that are contradictory
> > to the world/character. Give a superhero a new power/gizmo and the fan
> > can quite easily suspend disbelief if it makes sense to the overall
> > story. But, for example, what do you *do* with Wonder Woman in the
> > modern world? Regardless of how you construct her origins, it's a tough
> > sell to drop her into a world where America is both an ally and at war
> > with various countries around the world that make it a point to oppress
> > women much worse. Yeah, you can fabricate some fake villain for her to
> > concentrate on, but that's pretty insulting all around (and a major
> > reason why I outgrew comic books).
>

> That's the point. You take Wonder Woman from Themyscira with literally "Old
> World" values and drop her in the Modern World and play up the contrast from
> her growing up in a world where you said what you meant and meant what you
> said to a world of legalese, political spin and marketing hype, a world
> filled with casual deception amongst so-called friends, family and loved
> ones and callous apathy toward the downtrodden, and where even some of the
> downtrodden can exploit your charity for selfish ends.
>
> It's a classic fish out of water trope is decades old:
>
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FishOutOfWater

And my point remains that it is a *juvenile* trope. Any introduction of
superheroes demands that you look at the larger world they inhabit. Are
chumps like the Joker *really* deserving of the focus of The Worlds
Greatest Detective? For all that Superman could do, why dick around
with the likes of Solomon Grundy? Where is the bigger picture in those
worlds? It seems like they *used* to do story lines involving
superheroes in actual wars; if they're still doing that, I certainly
haven't seen it.

For Wonder Woman, America is no longer fertile ground. At least not in
any reality we'd currently recognize. She'd be more a "fish out of
water" in China or all throughout the Middle East. Her powers would do
more good there than here. Superheroes just aren't that super when you
stick them in the real world and they still busy themselves with
mundane, local, and/or fictional battles.

[Jim G.]

Ken from Chicago sent the following on 5/23/2013 7:15 AM:

I was thinking more of the superheroes themselves, rather than secondary
types. How many superhero types can you name who died and then stayed dead?

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre

"I was wondering if you could give me some advice on how to handle
stress." -- Norma Bates, BATES MOTEL

[Jim G.]

Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/22/2013 4:34 PM:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 14:02:04 -0500, "Jim G."
> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Arrow might not have been at first, given that Queen seemed to
>>> be more mastermind and machismo... But when they started trying to
>>> make Digger smart, Queen suddenly became the whinging man that women
>>> fantasize about coddling. And while I hear the show's improved since
>>> then, the damage was done and the magic of the show was gone in my
>>> eyes.
>>
>> I bailed before that, apparently. The stupid got to me before any
>> estrogenization (yeah, I just made it up) of the main character.
>
> True. Looking back, I admit that the premise of the show was
> pretty thin. I just stuck around for the 6-pack and the blue eyes.

Slut. :)

> I
> was waiting to see whether he was actually an actor, or a meat puppet.
>>> I couldn't personally get into Cult. It reminded me too much
>>> of another premise I had seen some time back (I think it was a web
>>> series), that died a horrible death of banality.
>>
>> I'll be bitter about CULT for a long time, I think.
>
> Bless. I know that feeling too well. I've gone through that
> sort of thing more times than I can count.

I'm kind of exaggerating a bit, but I *was* disappointed when it got
axed. Truth is, the last two times I was genuinely angry with a show was
the joke of an ending (and final season, for the most part) of LOST and
the lying showrunner behind THE KILLING. Most things just roll of my
back; no matter how much I like a show, there are always others to try
out, and plenty of good books to read. But LOST and THE KILLING? Those
two broke major promises to the audience.

[Jim G.]

Ken from Chicago sent the following on 5/23/2013 4:26 AM:

> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message

> news:kn8hnt$lcm$8...@dont-email.me...
>> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/18/2013 9:31 AM:
>>> On Thu, 16 May 2013 17:02:34 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you imagine how galactically bad a script would have to be for the
>>>> CW to realize that that was the problem?
>>>
>>> I can personally imagine. Unfortunately though, the execs at
>>> CW have so much denial going on, it's impossible for them to know when
>>> they have something universally craptastic.
>>
>> I don't want to sound like a CW homer, but at least they're *trying* to
>> provide the genre stuff that I want. Yeah, it's often lame, but they're
>> offering it, and in much larger quantities than Syfy or the other networks
>> these days...

>>
>> --
>> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre

>> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH
>

> Thus the eternal debate, how harshly do you want to criticize a show and
> risk:
> --not only it being cancelled but TPTB deciding it's not worth the effort to
> make that kind of show anymore
> VS
> --encouraging a flawed show with potential in the hopes of that show getting
> better and TPTB opting to take the risk of making more of that kind of show
> VS
> --encouraging a flawed show with potential and that encouragement is
> misinterpreted to keep making the show as is, or even making it even more
> flawed and TPTB using that as a green like to churn out even worse versions
> of the kind of show you like.

The more I like what a show is *trying* to do, the more patient I am
with any growing pains. Still, those pains should be largely a thing of
the past even before the first season is over. With a show like ARROW,
my sense was that it would be a loud, cranky, colicky baby for its
entire existence.

In any case, I tend to go with your middle option. Support the flawed
genre show and offer feedback that will (a) exemplify that commitment to
the show and (b) perhaps help to steer the show into a better direction
(if there's enough critical mass among the various outlets discussing
the show).

[anim8rFSK]

In article
<droleary.usenet-E3...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Given that he's one of the world's greatest mass murderers, yes.

For all that Superman could do, why dick around
> with the likes of Solomon Grundy? Where is the bigger picture in those
> worlds? It seems like they *used* to do story lines involving
> superheroes in actual wars; if they're still doing that, I certainly
> haven't seen it.
>
> For Wonder Woman, America is no longer fertile ground. At least not in
> any reality we'd currently recognize. She'd be more a "fish out of
> water" in China or all throughout the Middle East. Her powers would do
> more good there than here. Superheroes just aren't that super when you
> stick them in the real world and they still busy themselves with
> mundane, local, and/or fictional battles.

--

[David Johnston]

On 5/24/2013 10:54 AM, Jim G. wrote:
> Ken from Chicago sent the following on 5/23/2013 7:15 AM:
>> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me...
>>> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
>>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
>>>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of
>>>>> immortal"
>>>>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
>>>>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
>>>
>>> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
>>> dead stay dead?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
>>> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH
>>
>> When their death inspires someone to become a hero.
>>
>> Uncle Ben
>> Jor-El & Lara
>> Thomas & Martha Wayne
>> Frank Castle's family
>
> I was thinking more of the superheroes themselves, rather than secondary
> types. How many superhero types can you name who died and then stayed dead?
>

Air Wave has been dead since 1981. He is likely to remain that way
because his power was the ability to make telephone calls.
Mar-Vell remains dead.
The Forever People are dead, and likely to remain that way because
nobody like them.
Fury is dead, and the problems with her history (being Wonder Woman's
daughter) make it difficult to bring her back.
The original Mister Incredible is dead and his successor is way better.
Rocket Red is dead and is most likely to be brought back by putting
another guy in the suit.
Political correctness will probably keep Super-Chief dead.
There's also no reason to bring back the original Vigilante

[shawn]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 07:17:41 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

True.. She should just go around all the time in her costume. Who
wouldn't want to hire a superhero as their latest secretary. I bet she
could get to the head of the line at fancy schmancy local eateries.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <d8dvp8dp52noch3vk...@4ax.com>,

She's a princess of a foreign nation. She should have her own embassy.
Hell, if Doom can do it ...

[anim8rFSK]

In article <kno771$dum$4...@dont-email.me>,

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> Ken from Chicago sent the following on 5/23/2013 7:15 AM:
> > "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:kndlfh$o3m$8...@dont-email.me...
> >> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/19/2013 8:41 AM:
> >>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 13:40:11 -0500, "Jim G."
> >>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Well, there's "immortal" as in "can't be killed" and "sort of immortal"
> >>>> as in "won't ever die of natural causes, but can be killed." And there
> >>>> hasn't always been a lot of consistency in the comic books, IIRC.
> >>>
> >>> And then there's Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.
> >>
> >> And, of course, there's the comic book non-question of when does someone
> >> dead stay dead?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
> >> "Can you and your stupid hair let us in?" -- Carlton Lassiter, PSYCH
> >
> > When their death inspires someone to become a hero.
> >
> > Uncle Ben
> > Jor-El & Lara
> > Thomas & Martha Wayne
> > Frank Castle's family
>
> I was thinking more of the superheroes themselves, rather than secondary
> types. How many superhero types can you name who died and then stayed dead?

Bucky
Captain Marvel
Superboy Prime
Ultimate Peter Parker
616 Peter Parker
Superman (big black cover issue too)
Batman (died different ways in simultaneous different titles too)



Okay, here's a real one: Boston Brand.

[Ken from Chicago]

"Doc O'Leary" <drolear...@2q2013.subsume.com> wrote in message

news:droleary.usenet-E3...@news.eternal-september.org...

No. No it's not a juvenile trope. It's only juvenile if POORLY executed, as
is any trope. Any trope can be part of a good or even great story IF
executed well. Don't confuse the medium for the message.

Same goes for "outgrowing" comic books. That's not your fault. Legions of
people have made that statement long before you. The statement itself is
seriously flawed, as flawed a comment as saying that one has outgrown books
or paintings. Yet combine those two art forms and people assume the result
can only be kiddie fare. Don't confused the medium for the message.

If you want to make an arbitrary distinction between comic book and graphic
novel, that too is flawed argument and a circular one. The former is
supposedly juvenile while the latter is grown-up. Some definitions fixate on
the latter having a square binding more like a prose book or a
novel--nevermind that tradepaper books are similarly bound and are merely
collection of the same content in comic books.

> superheroes demands that you look at the larger world they inhabit. Are
> chumps like the Joker *really* deserving of the focus of The Worlds
> Greatest Detective? For all that Superman could do, why dick around
> with the likes of Solomon Grundy? Where is the bigger picture in those
> worlds? It seems like they *used* to do story lines involving
> superheroes in actual wars; if they're still doing that, I certainly
> haven't seen it.

WORLD WAR THREE
CIVIL WAR
SECRET WAR
RANN-THANAGAR WAR

And those are just the wars where the word "war" was used in the title. DC
Comics had a war between the Atlanteans and Amazons, a war between Green
Lanterns and Yellow Lanterns and various other Lanterns. Marvel Comics has
had a long war between the Kree and the Shiar aka "Operation Galactic
Storm", and Thanos versus the Marvel Universe in the Infinity Crusade.

Of course the ultimate war was between the Anti-Monitor and the rest of the
DC Multiverse in Crisis on Infinite Earths (and its various sequels).

I stopped collecting comics a decade ago but even I know there have been
plenty of comic book stories about wars, so asking where the superhero war
stories at reflects just woeful lack of information on the subject.

Oh, and yes, there have been plenty of comic book stories paralleling the
"War on Terror" in real life with comic book versions. Most of the
villainous / criminal organizations in the Big Two fit the bill for
terrorist organizations.

> For Wonder Woman, America is no longer fertile ground. At least not in
> any reality we'd currently recognize. She'd be more a "fish out of
> water" in China or all throughout the Middle East. Her powers would do
> more good there than here. Superheroes just aren't that super when you
> stick them in the real world and they still busy themselves with
> mundane, local, and/or fictional battles.

Daredevil
Spider-Man
Power Man
Black Canary
Batman
Robin
Static
Nightwing
Batgirl
Huntress
Punisher
Black Lightning
Iron Fist

And many other "neighborhood" superheroes would beg to differ with the
argument that you can't have superheroes dealing with mundane, local and/or
fictional battles--whether said superheroes are super-powered or not.

Yes, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hulk, Iron Man, Supergirl, Power Girl, Marvel
Girl / Jean Grey / Phoenix, Storm have super powers that make dealing with
the average mugging, theft, robbery, kidnapping, assault & battery are
relative snap in a straight-up, head-to-head conflict. However dealing with
organized crime is more than just intimidating or stopping isolated
criminals but requires a systematic long-term strategy as criminals, like
guerrillas or terrorists, tend to fight asymmetrically, at least the smart
ones do.

Superman, Wonder Woman and Phoenix however have a bit of bigger advantage in
dealing with organized criminals considering they Superman has super-hearing
and x-ray vision to make lie detection and crime detection to track down
criminal leaders a bit easier. Wonder Woman has a lasso of truth to make
short work of questioning low-level criminals and working up the ladder. The
same holds for Phoenix's telepathic powers. However identifying and
*legally* convicting criminals are not always the same, even if you can get
evidence, the easiest defense is said superhero fabricated the evidence,
since said superhero has no qualms about going around the law in the first
place.

That said, for a REALISTIC portrayal of organized crime leaders in a
superhero universe, the smart would be to have "contingencies" in case
superheroes do decide to take the law into their own hands, various hostages
could be detained and bad things happen to them if they disappear or various
targets could be in the crosshairs of various snipers or programmed bombs,
etc.



That all said, I agree with you that superhero stories should have
challenges match the power-level and skill of the superhero in question aka
a superhero is known by the (super) villains they confront. If the nemesis
are too powerful, that ups the ante and heroes have to up their game or team
up. If the nemesis is too weak, well, usually those stories are played for
laughs.

Wonder Woman with powers to rival Superman would have to face a similar
level of challenge, either in quality or quantity. Either she faces a
dinosaur-sized monster or a thousand duck-sized mini-monsters. Considering
the budget for a live-action weekly tv series, while occasionally she might
face a giant singular threat, often she's more likely to face multiple
smaller threats. The cleverest archvillains are even likely to use Diana's
talents against her, even tricking her to set things in motion in their
favor.

As far as Wonder Woman fighting in wars overseas, she could occasionally
show up save various innocents caught in the crossfire, altho she's likely
to get unlikely pushback from allies worried that her presence could cause
political destabilization and result in various nations and groups seeking
nuclear and/or chemical weapons as a hedge against super-powered
"interlopers".

> --
> iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
> My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com,
> theremailer.net,
> and probably your server, too.

-- Ken from Chicago

[David Johnston]

Bucky's alive now.

> Captain Marvel

Marvel's Captain Marvel is still dead.

> Superboy Prime

Was Superboy Prime ever dead?

> Ultimate Peter Parker

Ay he's a dead 'un. Since he was redundant, liable to stay that way.


> 616 Peter Parker

Not really dead.

> Superman (big black cover issue too)
> Batman (died different ways in simultaneous different titles too)

Came back.

[JM Morrison]

On 24/05/2013 9:55 AM, Jim G. wrote:
> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/22/2013 4:34 PM:
>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 14:02:04 -0500, "Jim G."
>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Arrow might not have been at first, given that Queen seemed to
>>>> be more mastermind and machismo... But when they started trying to
>>>> make Digger smart, Queen suddenly became the whinging man that women
>>>> fantasize about coddling. And while I hear the show's improved since
>>>> then, the damage was done and the magic of the show was gone in my
>>>> eyes.
>>>
>>> I bailed before that, apparently. The stupid got to me before any
>>> estrogenization (yeah, I just made it up) of the main character.
>>
>> True. Looking back, I admit that the premise of the show was
>> pretty thin. I just stuck around for the 6-pack and the blue eyes.
>
> Slut. :)

Did you see how soft and round he was looking by the end of the season?
Not fat, but not chiseled either. Stay away from the craft service
Stephen!

>
>> I
>> was waiting to see whether he was actually an actor, or a meat puppet.
>>>> I couldn't personally get into Cult. It reminded me too much
>>>> of another premise I had seen some time back (I think it was a web
>>>> series), that died a horrible death of banality.
>>>
>>> I'll be bitter about CULT for a long time, I think.
>>
>> Bless. I know that feeling too well. I've gone through that
>> sort of thing more times than I can count.
>
> I'm kind of exaggerating a bit, but I *was* disappointed when it got
> axed. Truth is, the last two times I was genuinely angry with a show was
> the joke of an ending (and final season, for the most part) of LOST and
> the lying showrunner behind THE KILLING. Most things just roll of my
> back; no matter how much I like a show, there are always others to try
> out, and plenty of good books to read. But LOST and THE KILLING? Those
> two broke major promises to the audience.
>

Amen. But then I saw the ads for the new season, just the two main
characters standing there and I actually got kinda teary eyed. I miss
those two and I want to see them again. And if the showrunner has not
learned her lesson I will find her and I will break her.

-jmm

[Ken from Chicago]

"David Johnston" <Da...@block.net> wrote in message

news:knomt0$9m7$2...@dont-email.me...

Captain Marvel aka Mar-Vell is dead.

Captain Marvel aka Photon lives.

Captain Marvel nee Ms. Marvel lives.

>> Superboy Prime
>
> Was Superboy Prime ever dead?
>
>> Ultimate Peter Parker
>
> Ay he's a dead 'un. Since he was redundant, liable to stay that way.
>
>
>> 616 Peter Parker
>
> Not really dead.

Oh c'mon, if you're going with parallel dimensions legions of Elseworlds and
What If's were based on the death of various heroes.

>> Superman (big black cover issue too)

Yet he lives.

>> Batman (died different ways in simultaneous different titles too)
>
> Came back.

Captain America too, despite there being a body.

>> Okay, here's a real one: Boston Brand.

Spectre or whomever his host body is also. There's a whole WW2 squad of
ghosts who have adventures. That's their schtick being dead.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"anim8rFSK" <anim...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:anim8rfsk-DDC10...@news.easynews.com...

<snip>

> She's a princess of a foreign nation. She should have her own embassy.
> Hell, if Doom can do it ...

She did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Modern_Age_2

A tv series about Wonder Woman as an ambassador from Themyscira would be a
refreshingly different spin from the typical depictions of superheroes as
super-rich, super-poor, or investigators (reporters, cops, detectives), CEOs
/ business owners, folks with the independence to ditch their work
responsibilities without explanation or penalty.

Functionally it would be like SCANDAL first season (the problem-solving
aspect and less the on-and-off-and-on-and-off affair with the POTUS) where
she's based in DC (or NYC near the UN building) and her embassy staff will
accept and filter requests for help while Diana could occasionally run
across people directly and help. Meanwhile the embassy would be a recurring
set and the embassy staff would be regular characters on the show she
interacts with, along with Steve Trevor who could be the love interest and
liaison with the Air Force.

She could be famous but like a lot of celebs, if she didn't have a huge
entourage and she dressed down, most wouldn't notice until it was explicitly
brought to their attention. The embassy would natch have a hidden exit
allowing her to dodge the press--aside from her invisible jet.

For an ongoing arc, aside from her relationship with Steve and various
embassy staff relationships, Diana could find herself defeating various
minions of the same organization, corporation and meeting up with the same
government official, and the same CEO. She could discover a group with an
ancient conflict with the Amazons survives to the 21st century and working
on a terrible hidden agenda threatened by her arrival from Themyscira. How
they align with the government official and the CEO--or conflict with either
of them--remains something for Diana to discover.

-- Ken from Chicago

[Ken from Chicago]

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in message

news:kno771$dum$5...@dont-email.me...

> Merrick Baldelli sent the following on 5/22/2013 4:34 PM:

<snip>

>> True. Looking back, I admit that the premise of the show was
>> pretty thin. I just stuck around for the 6-pack and the blue eyes.
>
> Slut. :)

Whoa, it's not Merrick but rather OLIVER who is going around
half-dressed--literally. He's the one who acts like exercising AND wearing a
shirt is impossible to do simultaneously.

-- Ken from Chicago