What Kosh showed Delenn! (Chrysalis spoilers)
Marc Plaisant
Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
Finally saw Chrysalis last night. WOW! While it didn't answer too many
questions, it did at least further the (many) arcs. And the Shadows are
soooo cool! And no you don't really get to see what Kosh is. And what
will become of Delenn. And.....
Back to the point. Kosh is everything:
When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
How do we know this:
Delenn gave the impression she was about to endure some major change in her
life and she had to know what would happen. When Kosh's encounter suit
opened up, I get the impression, he (it) showed Delenn the future. Or at
least some knowledge of an event that would take place.
Facts to support this:
1) The only two humans to ever see Kosh 'naked' were the Doctor
administering to him when he got injured and a telepath (from the pilot
movie). Both of them were 'taken away' after seeing Kosh. Did they see
the future? Did they know something the powers that be didn't want them to
know?
2) Sinclair had gone to see Kosh in (I believe) the DeathWalker
episode. When Sinclair entered Kosh's room, there were flashes of Earth's
history been shown on the wall for Sinclair to see.
Nothing much, we've all see SciFi shows were some alien race is
'learning' about Earth. However, if you think of Kosh as a mirror of time,
he could have been _showing_ Sinclair Earth's history by altering time
somehow (unknow to Sinclair), instead of the history lesson that scene
seemed to represent.
3) Kosh, and Vorlons in general, always appear as flashes of light
when they're not in the encounter suit. This isn't saying we've seen what
a Vorlon looks like, but it keeps in time with the 'light' idea.
4) Finally, Kosh seems to know things. For example: Kosh said
to Sinclair "you have forgotten something", refering of course to
Sinclair's meeting with Delenn (which Sinclair had justifiably forgotten
about). How did Kosh know? No one had told him anything about Delenn's
request to Sinclair to come to her room so she could explain the hole in
his mind.
And this is not just a onetime occurance. Kosh has always seemed
to know just a little more than he's willing to let on.
So, I don't think we'll ever really 'see' Kosh. He'll probably
appear as a light to us, and to the person he's concentrating his attention
to will probably see the past, future, etc....
Just a thought. Any ideas?
Marc
gh...@wam.umd.edu
doctor said something like
"I looked on the face of a vorlon and nothing is the same anymore..."
Did the doctor see his future or something ?
A few things that bugs me about with this theory is that
1) it makes Kosh out to an embodiment of an abstract idea..then again the
way he carries on he might as well be an abstraction 8-)
Kosh as demi-god/space-time thing seems more like a Star Trek
superbeing of the month-type thing, flames not intended. I guess I
always pictured Vorlons to be something biological, even if they
are in an advanced stage of transformation, where they are becoming
more 'energy' then 'matter'.
...then was Dr. Kyle just treating the suit ?
2) IF Kosh and Vorlons in general have no real substance and only needs
the suit to interact with the physical, then there WAS NO real danger
to Kosh from either the poison or opening his suit. From this line
of speculation, I would wager that the only reason the Vorlons didn't
want Kosh's suit to opened is that the people/doctors etc. would see
things they are not meant to see, things to come that they are not
ready for yet.....
Despite these things, I must admit that I got the very real impression
that Kosh seems to be aware of too much too easily -it does seem that
he knows the future, doesn't it ? But jms said something along the lines
of there being only one instance of time travel in the whol Babylon 5 story
arc -can someone confirm this?
Some questions and ponderings
-----------------------------
1) What did Delenn promise Kosh ? Did she promise to tell Sinclair
about the Battle of The Line, if he showed himself ?
2) Could Kosh actually FIGHT in that encounter suit ? It seems more like
a walking baby carriage to me (albeit a very creepy one)
3) Could Kosh be psychic ? If so does he scan others to get information,
not caring about the 'unimportant' moral issues ?
4) *IS* it true that Vorlons don't care for telepaths ? I know that
Sinclair mentioned it in Death Walker but did jms ever said this?
Just wonderin'
5) Did Delenn ask Kosh about Morden, to confirm her suspicions that
the Darkness has arrived and that the Vorlons are the Light ....?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* * ** B A B Y L O N 5 * ** * *
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Brennan
>
>Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>when they're not in the encounter suit. This isn't saying we've seen what
>a Vorlon looks like, but it keeps in time with the 'light' idea.
So far as I know, we have never seen any Vorlon other than Kosh. How
can we extrapolate anything from Kosh and expect it to be true about
all of the Vorlons?
--
Dennis Brennan "Understanding is a three-edged sword."
dj...@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Benjamin Schultz
: Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
[snip]
: 4) Finally, Kosh seems to know things. For example: Kosh said
: to Sinclair "you have forgotten something", refering of course to
: Sinclair's meeting with Delenn (which Sinclair had justifiably forgotten
: about). How did Kosh know? No one had told him anything about Delenn's
: request to Sinclair to come to her room so she could explain the hole in
: his mind.
: And this is not just a onetime occurance. Kosh has always seemed
: to know just a little more than he's willing to let on.
G'Kar has already said his people watch Londo's people and vice versa.
I think Kosh keeps an eyebeam on EVERYBODY. B5 hosts several diplomats,
after all -- diplomats with a LOT of secrets to keep (or leak).
BTW -- what was Kosh doing *** at a council meeting *** ????
--
Benjamin Schultz, KE3OM
President, U of MD Amateur Radio Association
(W3EAX)
Hill, Dave
> When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
> was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
> impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
> Delenn gave the impression she was about to endure some major change in
her
> life and she had to know what would happen. When Kosh's encounter suit
> opened up, I get the impression, he (it) showed Delenn the future. Or at
> least some knowledge of an event that would take place.
Hmmm. I assumed that he showed her something about *himself* that confirmed
for her that her course was correct and that the "promise" would be kept.
My SO thinks it was a triangle-symbol. My opinion was that it was
something about his state that resembled what she expected to become.
Which, of course, gets back into the relationship between the Minbari and
the Vorlons.
BTW, I suspect more and more that most folks were right in what they
identified as the "thing to look for" at the reception scene in The
Gathering, i.e., the rather sly smile that Delenn gives to Kosh. I had
chalked it up to being the same as the smug grin she so often wears (except
when she looks wide-eyed with alarm and distress), but it certainly now
seems that there is some relationship between Delenn and Kosh, or Delenn and
the Vorlons.
> 1) The only two humans to ever see Kosh 'naked' were the Doctor
> administering to him when he got injured and a telepath (from the pilot
> movie). Both of them were 'taken away' after seeing Kosh. Did they see
> the future? Did they know something the powers that be didn't want them
to
> know?
Well, they knew what a Vorlon looked like. It *could* be something as
dramatic as you describe (though what the "future" shown by a comatose
Vorlon would look like is pretty unclear). It might merely be that they are
now considered valuable resources by EarthGov.
Or (heh) perhaps the Vorlons insisted on their removal. Don't know as
anyone has speculated that before.
> 2) Sinclair had gone to see Kosh in (I believe) the DeathWalker
> episode. When Sinclair entered Kosh's room, there were flashes of Earth's
> history been shown on the wall for Sinclair to see.
> Nothing much, we've all see SciFi shows were some alien race is
> 'learning' about Earth. However, if you think of Kosh as a mirror of
time,
> he could have been _showing_ Sinclair Earth's history by altering time
> somehow (unknow to Sinclair), instead of the history lesson that scene
> seemed to represent.
Weren't some of the shots in B&W? Unless Kosh's Time Mirror principle works
the same way as The Guardian of Forever (showing history via news clips and
old movie footage), I think it more likely that Kosh was simply reviewing
Earth records.
> 3) Kosh, and Vorlons in general, always appear as flashes of light
> when they're not in the encounter suit. This isn't saying we've seen what
> a Vorlon looks like, but it keeps in time with the 'light' idea.
I think the only Vorlon we've actually seen, even in an encounter suit, is
Kosh, so it may not be accurate to generalize this way (indeed, some folks
even believe that there *is* only one Vorlon). I do agree that Kosh seems
to be inherently luminous -- whenever his suit opens up, Spielbergesque
light pours out, and when he is "seen" behind his screen when Sinclair
visits his quarters at one point, there is a definite lightshow.
> 4) Finally, Kosh seems to know things. For example: Kosh said
> to Sinclair "you have forgotten something", refering of course to
> Sinclair's meeting with Delenn (which Sinclair had justifiably forgotten
> about). How did Kosh know? No one had told him anything about Delenn's
> request to Sinclair to come to her room so she could explain the hole in
> his mind.
> And this is not just a onetime occurance. Kosh has always seemed
> to know just a little more than he's willing to let on.
Assuming there was no other communication between Delenn and Kosh, you are
right about his sneaky knowledge. However, it seems highly likely that
Kosh, like the other ambassadors, has surveillance gear and abilities that
we don't know about. He, too, may also have some psi capability, so that he
was aware of Delenn's intent to talk to Sinclair.
Or maybe he wanted to discuss with Sinclair the hole in his mind (which was
*my* first thought when Kosh spoke the line).
> So, I don't think we'll ever really 'see' Kosh. He'll probably
> appear as a light to us, and to the person he's concentrating his
attention
> to will probably see the past, future, etc....
>
> Just a thought. Any ideas?
One other bit of evidence in your favor, though also not conclusive. In
MotFL:
"They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass."
"Who? The Narn or the Centauri?"
"Yes."
Kosh's use of tense, and his self-proclaimed omniscience, could tie in with
a knowledge of the future.
Your specultion is not completely outside possibility. JMS has been willing
to deal with both time travel and precognition, so having a being that
exists across time is not beyond the pale. Still, I think it is more
"complex" than necessary, and believe Kosh will turn out to be a bit more
straightforward than that.
*** Dave
*** (dh...@jacobs.com)
*** "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
Oolong
/Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
/When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
/was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
/impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
I got no such impression. What did finally hit me was, why would the
suit be lit all the time?
Kosh is a plant. Needs light to grow.
-xx- Damien X-)
"Send a policeman and have it arrested."
-- Bismarck, when asked what he would do if the British Army landed.
jpar...@ivory.trentu.ca
>
>Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
>was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
>impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
>
>How do we know this:
>Delenn gave the impression she was about to endure some major change in her
>life and she had to know what would happen. When Kosh's encounter suit
>opened up, I get the impression, he (it) showed Delenn the future. Or at
>least some knowledge of an event that would take place.
>
Well, yes, but also remeber Delenn knew for a long time that she was to be a
part of a complex future. At the beginning of the show, she had asked Lenier to
deliver a message to Kosh, to which he answered yes. considering her response,
it appears as if she "figured" out how she fits into the scheme of things to
come, and asked Kosh to confirm her suspicions. Given Kosh's gift for
understatement, it is understandable that she would want to confirm his
respone. Hence the line, "I have to know". Wheather Kosh is a reflection of
time, exsisting in 4 dimensions rather then 3, is left to purest speculation.
>Facts to support this:
>
> 1) The only two humans to ever see Kosh 'naked' were the Doctor
>administering to him when he got injured and a telepath (from the pilot
>movie). Both of them were 'taken away' after seeing Kosh. Did they see
>the future? Did they know something the powers that be didn't want them to
>know?
Yes, but as you stated, they were the only humans ever to see a Vorlon. Given
the curiosity the EA has shown for other unkowns it only seems logical that
they would recall both of them back to earth so they could "work with them more
closely".
>
> 2) Sinclair had gone to see Kosh in (I believe) the DeathWalker
>episode. When Sinclair entered Kosh's room, there were flashes of Earth's
>history been shown on the wall for Sinclair to see.
> Nothing much, we've all see SciFi shows were some alien race is
>'learning' about Earth. However, if you think of Kosh as a mirror of time,
>he could have been _showing_ Sinclair Earth's history by altering time
>somehow (unknow to Sinclair), instead of the history lesson that scene
>seemed to represent.
>
Kinda vague.
> 3) Kosh, and Vorlons in general, always appear as flashes of light
>when they're not in the encounter suit. This isn't saying we've seen what
>a Vorlon looks like, but it keeps in time with the 'light' idea.
-perhaps the Vorlons exsist as coherient energy only.
>
> 4) Finally, Kosh seems to know things. For example: Kosh said
>to Sinclair "you have forgotten something", refering of course to
>Sinclair's meeting with Delenn (which Sinclair had justifiably forgotten
>about). How did Kosh know? No one had told him anything about Delenn's
>request to Sinclair to come to her room so she could explain the hole in
>his mind.
> And this is not just a onetime occurance. Kosh has always seemed
>to know just a little more than he's willing to let on.
>
Yes, but if Kosh was aware of what delenn was planning, then it is quite
possible that he knew what she was going to tell Sinclair. To that end, he
could plausibly point out that "you have foegotten something". As to him
knowing things, that other do not. Almost all the FAQ's and demos available on
B5 make sure to note the Vorlons connection with the underworld. Hence the
bonus knowledge
You bring up some interesting points, Wich could be interpreted as you stated,
but I'm unsure whether they point to Vorlons being a reflection of time.
However, this is still WAAAY open to debate. Any other points to add?
Jon
================================================================================
The first sign of genius is the admission of just how little one knows.
================================================================================
Steven Sharp
A number of people have been speculating that Kosh is "a reflection of time"
or "as coherent energy only". I think they are getting a bit carried away.
Assuming that what the doctor in "The Gathering" was treating was Kosh
rather than some animal stuffed in his suit, he isn't anywhere near that
exotic. From things the doctor said or that appeared on medical displays,
Kosh has a respiratory system and cells, and is affected by chemicals in
ways analogous to our bodies. This isn't Star Trek, so let's get back a
little closer to reality.
Mike Batchelor
Marc Plaisant
,nyah.
(I'm the author of the 'reflection of time')
but seriously....
Maybe what the doctor said was based on the encounter suit. It
took me awhile to realize that the encounter suit was just that:
protection. It, inandofitself looks pretty life-like, and I wouldn't put it
past jms to actually have Kosh as two living creatures in a symbiotic
relationship with each other. Like sucker fish on sharks, like coral on a
hermit crab, like birds on hippos/giraffes/etc but to a much weirder
extreme.
I didn't pay that much attention to the medical displays when Kosh was under
the knife, BUT, when the doctor cut through the encounter suit all we saw
was his surprise and a wash of bright light. _That_ was the first time we
(and the doctor) saw Kosh. The medical scopes were showing info _before_
the doctor opened the suit. Thus, given the fact that the physiology of
Kosh was not know to the human's how could the scopes have been showing
statistics about Kosh - they must have been reporting back about the suit!
And your're right this isn't Star Trek, that's why I believe something like
this could fly.
Ken Arromdee
Steven Sharp <sh...@craycos.com> wrote:
>A number of people have been speculating that Kosh is "a reflection of time"
>or "as coherent energy only". I think they are getting a bit carried away.
>Assuming that what the doctor in "The Gathering" was treating was Kosh
>rather than some animal stuffed in his suit, he isn't anywhere near that
>exotic.
It could be that the suit is alive, and they were treating the suit.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"No boom today. Boom tomorrow, there's always a boom tomorrow." --Ivanova
Eric Tolle
>HIS DUCK!!!
well, now that the speculation has gone back to the silly level....
I shoulden't have watched MST3K before seeing it...
My first impression _was_ that Kosh was flashing her:
"Goodness, it's longer than Londo's!"
Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
"You see when a rocketship and a space station love each other very much..."
Joel Robertson, 'MST3K'
Tom Limoncelli
pictures are shown? I don't have a VCR or I'd be able
to go back and take a look myself.
--tal
--
Tom Limoncelli -- t...@plts.org (home) -- t...@big.att.com (work)
Write to me for info about internet mailing lists on these topics:
Drew University Alumni/ae, IXO/tpage users, New Jersey Unix Sysadmins' Group
(like SAGE), New Jersey motss, North East motss, BiNet/New Jersey, and more!
Serge Ayotte
> > Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SMILEY WARNING!!! <GRIN>
>
>
> > So, I don't think we'll ever really 'see' Kosh. He'll probably
> > appear as a light to us, and to the person he's concentrating his
> attention
> > to will probably see the past, future, etc....
> >
> > Just a thought. Any ideas?
>
> One other bit of evidence in your favor, though also not conclusive. In
> MotFL:
>
> "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass."
> "Who? The Narn or the Centauri?"
> "Yes."
>
> Kosh's use of tense, and his self-proclaimed omniscience, could tie in with
> a knowledge of the future.
>
> Your specultion is not completely outside possibility. JMS has been willing
> to deal with both time travel and precognition, so having a being that
> exists across time is not beyond the pale. Still, I think it is more
> "complex" than necessary, and believe Kosh will turn out to be a bit more
> straightforward than that.
>
Well, maybe he is the Xth incarnetion of the Doctor...
Oooppsss... Sorry, wrong channel
(What can I say, I just couldn't resist... (-8 )
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| ri...@geloser.login.qc.ca |
| Matrix Rider Serge Ayotte |
| System operator |
| Gentleman Loser System (private), Montreal/Quebec/Canada |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Ewen MacMillan
How about if Kosh is an human being.
The encounter suit actually disguises the fact that he has an oxygen
mask beneath it.
This would be a plausible explanation as to why it is so important
that the Vorlon form be concealed.
--
t e z c a t . c o m i n t e r n e t s e r v i c e s
brokers in human interconnectivity - chicago (wicker park)
(312)850-0112<modem> | we support TIA slip | http://tezcat.com<web>
(312)850-0181<voice> | emulation software | in...@tezcat.com<email>
Michael Rawdon
>Back to the point. Kosh is everything:
>When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
>was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
>impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
My current working theory is that Kosh is a future incarnation of Sinclair, or
Garibaldi, or someone connected to the station who could have learned all
this. More generally, the Vorlons are humans from the future. It would
certainly explain their vast knowledge of Things Going On.
But, it's just a theory. I don't dare more than idle speculation until we get
some more concrete clues. After "Chrysalis" I'm more interested in what's
going on right now.
--
Michael Rawdon
raw...@padauk.cs.wisc.edu
WWW Home Page: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~rawdon/rawdon.html
"According to the [conservative Supreme] Court, campaigns draw funds in
proportion to their support, and if this means that the ones that draw the
most funds will most often win, that's just the operation of the free market.
The problem with this conception is that elections are a type of market
phenomenon in which every person, not every dollar, is supposed to have equal
weight. Campaigns draw funds mostly in proportion to their attractiveness to
rich people."
- From _With_Liberty_And_Justice_For_Some_, by David Kairys
Arnold Chu
: In article <MP0.94Oc...@native.cis.ufl.edu>, m...@native.cis.ufl.edu (Marc Plaisant) writes:
: >
: >Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >Back to the point. Kosh is everything:
: >
: >When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
: >was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
: >impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
<....>
: You bring up some interesting points, Wich could be interpreted as you stated,
: but I'm unsure whether they point to Vorlons being a reflection of time.
: However, this is still WAAAY open to debate. Any other points to add?
My best guess is that Delenn believes that Vorlons are a pivitol figure
in the Minbari prophecy. She checks to see that part of the prophecy
is fulfulled so that she can move on to the next step which involves her
going into chrysalis.
I find it ironic that as soon as Catherine & Sinclair decides to tie the
knot, all hell breaks loose.
Reards,
A. Chu
-------------------------
All opinions are my own. No one else, including my employer is responsible
for them in any way.
Mark O. Wilson
|jpar...@ivory.trentu.ca wrote:
|: In article <MP0.94Oc...@native.cis.ufl.edu>, m...@native.cis.ufl.edu (Marc Plaisant) writes:
|: >
|: >Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >
|: >Back to the point. Kosh is everything:
|: >
|: >When Delenn went to see Kosh, the encounter suit opened up and all you saw
|: >was a bright light. Well that's Kosh. No seriously. We got the
|: >impression that Kosh, as my friend described, "is a reflection of time".
|: >
|<....>
|: You bring up some interesting points, Wich could be interpreted as you stated,
|: but I'm unsure whether they point to Vorlons being a reflection of time.
|: However, this is still WAAAY open to debate. Any other points to add?
|My best guess is that Delenn believes that Vorlons are a pivitol figure
|in the Minbari prophecy. She checks to see that part of the prophecy
|is fulfulled so that she can move on to the next step which involves her
|going into chrysalis.
What I would love to know is what was the question that Lenier was sent
to Kosh to ask? Could it have had something to do with the prophecy?
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because your mob calls itself a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's Theory of Relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Ken Arromdee
Charles Ewen MacMillan <il...@tezcat.com> wrote:
> How about if Kosh is an human being.
> The encounter suit actually disguises the fact that he has an oxygen
> mask beneath it.
> This would be a plausible explanation as to why it is so important
> that the Vorlon form be concealed.
I would be disappointed were this to happen.
And I wouldn't be surprised, either.
no one of consequence
Isn't it obvious? Delenn saw that Kosh was the Creator of all Reality.
From her point of view at least.. :-)
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|
|Member Lovely Angels Fan Club/Fire Support Team/Cleanup Crew |
|"Not like us? You will *BECOME* us!"- Jha'Dur, "Deathwalker" Babylon-5 |
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article....|
Joseph Poutre
The speculation is based on two "facts":
1. According to "Infection", the Vorlons have organic technology.
2. When anyone looked at Kosh, all we've seen is bright light.
The guess is that the Vorlons are energy beings that use the organic technology
of the suit to interact with matter beings. I don't necessarily agree with
this, but it's a possibility.
---
Joseph Poutre, aka The Mad Mathematician N2KOW
jpo...@lehman.com Systems Administrator, Lehman Bros.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he
is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not
make messes in the house. -- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"
Cpt. Kangarooski
MacMillan) wrote:
-most everything deleted-
> How about if Kosh is an human being.
well then lets make it signifigant...
kosh is futureSinclair
the reasons are-
lets him watch from another point of view the things happening on b5
(esp. with sheridan)
he remembers it happening so he had better do it
keeps the humans away from things they should be kept away from
lets him control a bit of the other humans (ie immortality)
generally neat
-cpt kangarooski
Abuabara
No way. 1st of all, one more time, I seem to remember JMS saying that
one reason we couldn't see Kosh yet was that they didn't have the CGI
technology yet. (If I'm remembering that wrong, please don't sic your
lawyers on me. ;) CGI wouldn't be needed for Sinclair, not even future
Sinclair. 2nd, wouldn't Sinclair be busy fighting the Big War? Would he
have time to spend 5 years futzing around in the past? & finally: Kosh
acts nothing like Sinclair. (He acts even less like Delenn, btw.)
Sinclair, even in the future, had normal speech patterns; he didn't go
around talking in parables. In our short glimpse of future Sinclair, he
also didn't seem to glow, or have any obvious modifications such as he
would need to get from his "shower?" to his suit in a flash of light
lasting about .75 seconds, as Kosh did once.
--
Ligia Abuabara "Just when I fall in love
lkab...@midway.uchicago.edu Everybody turns out to be a terrorist..."
-Devil Hunter Yohko
Eric Gross
>>A number of people have been speculating that Kosh is "a reflection of time"
>>or "as coherent energy only". I think they are getting a bit carried away.
So do I, but along these lines, might it be possible that the Vorlons, or
maybe just Kosh, is a Merlin-type character? Maybe he moves backwards through
time, instead of forwards, and this is how he seems to know somuch about the
future . . . .
Nah, probably not.
Gharlane of Eddore
I disagree violently. We don't know what would poison Kosh, we don't
know *if* Kosh was poisoned, we don't know if the suit is Kosh and
the contents a pet or symbiote, we don't know if Kosh really has "blue
cells," as Johnny Sekka's doctor-character said, or whether ALL medical
reports, personal and mechanical, had been pre-arranged by Earth Central....
...as a security barrier around whatever it is that the Vorlons don't
care to reveal, and the Earth government wishes to help them/it conceal!
jdow on BIX
>HIS DUCK!!!
>--
>M.Bat...@babylon4.clark.net
Ah yes! Of course! I shudda guessed long ago! Why, it's obvious in hindsight!
Kosh is an interstellar flasher!
Ack! PlpTLpT! {O,o}
Jon Gray
Steven Sharp <sh...@craycos.com> wrote:
>A number of people have been speculating that Kosh is "a reflection of time"
>or "as coherent energy only". I think they are getting a bit carried away.
>Assuming that what the doctor in "The Gathering" was treating was Kosh
>rather than some animal stuffed in his suit, he isn't anywhere near that
>exotic. From things the doctor said or that appeared on medical displays,
>Kosh has a respiratory system and cells, and is affected by chemicals in
>ways analogous to our bodies. This isn't Star Trek, so let's get back a
>little closer to reality.
You make some very good points. I agree with you in speculation (until
I know the tru nature of Koshness, it is all speculation). Another
reason I don't expect Kosh to be entirely energy is that he uses sound
to communicate. A being who has full control over light and energy could
much more easily and quickly use light to communicate. Trying to create
usable computer-human interfaces, communication is quite important to
me. I tend to watch for it everywhere (it's not really that strange).
Kosh did use something visual to communicate with Sinclair (the images
of Human history) and with Delenn (we didn't see it, but she did say
she had to "see", didn't she?). But their primary form of communication
is aural. They use strange noises to communicate with their translators
which use our natural form of communication (English, luckily for those
of us who use English).
But, I don't think they have as coherent of a body as we do. When
Sinclair went to talk with him, he was behind a curtain, not in the
encounter suit. Sinclair glanced away for a moment, and Kosh was in
the suit. Not many animals can move that quickly AND quietly--at
least not many which are of significant size.
What I picture is something halfway between solid and energy. Something
with a body, but the body doesn't have a distinct surface. More similar
to the Companion from an old Star Trek, but not quite.
--
,NMMMN,
N o o N
__Jon Gray____oOOo_(__^__)_oOOo_____...@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu_______
U
Remember: I'm not just the president of the Association for the Reduction
of Redundency Organization (ARRO), I'm also a member and an officer.
Dennis Brennan
>MacMillan) wrote:
>
>-most everything deleted-
>
>> How about if Kosh is an human being.
>
>well then lets make it signifigant...
>kosh is futureSinclair
Then why would Kosh pull the ol' "Reflection...Surprise...Terror" on Talia?
David Van Meter
>FROM: no one of consequence <wol...@minnie.cc.utexas.edu>
>
>Charles Ewen MacMillan <il...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>] How about if Kosh is an human being.
>
>Isn't it obvious? Delenn saw that Kosh was the Creator of all Reality.
>From her point of view at least.. :-)
You mean it was JMS inside the suit? 8-)
Dave V.
Anomaly13
dj...@ellis.uchicago.edu (Dennis Brennan) writes:
>>kosh is futureSinclair
>Then why would Kosh pull the ol' "Reflection...Surprise...Terror" on
Talia?
Maybe FutureSinclair knows that Talia is going to do something in the
future he needs to prevent, and using her emotions against her is the best
way to accomplish that. As the plot heats up and the Psi-Corps takes on
an ever-more-sinister aspect, Talia could assume something of an evil
aspect...until, maybe, she is reminded of who she used to be.
Just pure speculation.
Morgen Schulz -- Anom...@aol.com
Jeff Bourque
with both feet. If this sounds familiar, it is because I posted to
the wrong thread "In the Shadow of Vorlons" (sorry).
Submitted for your approval...
Observations
In the pilot, Kosh's treatment in MedLab involved opening his encounter
suit. When this happened, light streamed from the opening and (in the
overhead shot) the suit's contents seemed to be composed of a
translucent, shimmering, luminescent substance.
Whenever Kosh is seen, he is standing (not withstanding the prone
position in MedLab). Even when not walking, Kosh seems to be
"shuffling" in place.
In "Signs and Portents" Morden is seen actively avoiding Ambassador
Kosh, and when he is unable to avoid an encounter with Kosh, some
form of struggle ensues (...we assume, based on Garibaldi's comment
about Kosk requiring some equipment to repair his encounter suit).
Morden has the Shadows backing him, yet he is afraid(?) of Kosh;
implying that the Shadows and the Vorlons (or at least one Vorlon --
Kosh) are on par with each other in the power struggle context.
The shots of the Shadows in "Chrysalis" reveal many interesting things.
The Shadows are quadrupeds (or more) and seemed to be constantly
shifting their weight amoung their (many) legs. This begs an old SF
question; what would a chair for a quadruped look like, or do they ever
need to sit? Also, they seem to be composed of a translucent,
shimmering, dark substance.
If you mentally superimpose Kosh's encounter suit over the (albeit
vague) shape of a shadow, IT FITS!
Speculation
Vorlons are the antithesis of Shadows, or variations on the same theme
in much the same way the warrior and religious casts of the Mimbari are
polarized, or they are the SAME BEINGS/RACE.
Light and darkness; a popular theme.
Where did B4 dissappear to? The future. To where are the Shadows
disappearing? Should I say "To WHEN are they disappearing?".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jes...@gov.nb.ca Remember, things always seem darkest
Jeff Bourque just before they go completely black
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael P. Clemens
Schultz) wrote:
> Marc Plaisant (m...@native.cis.ufl.edu) wrote:
>
> : Chrysalis spoilers follow. Some protection....
> BTW -- what was Kosh doing *** at a council meeting *** ????
Whatever Kosh wants. :-)
Kosh *is* the diplomat from one of the "major races", no? Perhaps I need
to go back and re-watch "The Gathering"...
- Mike
Alan Sheltra
[Stuff Deleted]
>What I picture is something halfway between solid and energy. Something
>with a body, but the body doesn't have a distinct surface. More similar
>to the Companion from an old Star Trek, but not quite.
Or maybe something like Odo on DS9? Kosh has a fancier bucket.
-Zog
--
Internet: z...@zog.com -or- z...@zog.wa.com * TheF...@AOL.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW Mailing List Address: <listname>@zog.com & list...@zog.com
'<listname>' = 'os9ers', 'fatcat', 'micros', 'sci_fi', 'ten', etc.
Alan Sheltra/Editor of the "International" OS9 Underground(R) Magazine
Scott Daugherty
My theory is that the prophesy of Valen among other things spoke about the
nature of the Vorlons, and that she needed personal confirmation of that
portion of the prophecy before she could take her own place in the
prophecy by entering the Chrysalis.
W Kenner Rawdon
: ***P O Departure SPOILERS ahead ****
Don't recall Kosh's line, but it reminds me of C. S. Lewis' Out of the
Silent Planet, in which each world had an angel. Maybe tha Narns' got lost.
And does any one else think that Chrysalis showed Kosh to be invisible? A
good reason for an encounter suit and for those who "saw" Kosh to be
spirited back to earth!
: I've been puzzling over Kosh's statement in Midnight on the
: Firing Line for some time: "They are alone, they are a dying race, we
: should let them pass." All of a sudden in POD we find out that humans
: and Minbari are NOT alone - their souls are connected (whatever that
: means!). What if Humans and Minbari aren't the only species so
: connected? What if all healthy species are, for some reason,
: connected to some other species in a similar way? Well, we might find
: that some advanced species generally go around in pairs, while the
: less advanced species might even kill their soul-brothers.
: If we suppose that the Centauri were supposed to be connected
: to the Xon, but killed them off, then Kosh's statement that they are a
: dying race could be quite factual (if they depended on the Xon
: somehow).
: If Delenn's question to Kosh was "are you, Kosh, actually two
: beings of different species in the same suit?" then we might
: understand her curiosity - she wanted to know that it is possible for
: two species to grow together before she pursued a course that would
: risk her life to bring humans and Minbari together (this assumes
: her new form will be more human).
: This fits in well with the history of the Dilgar and the old
: planet in Infection - anyone who kills their soul-mates is doomed to
: die. If the Home Guard wins, then Humans will pass the way of those
: other races.
: The biggest problem with all this seems to be that the Narn
: are kind of left out. Why are they alone? Maybe we just haven't
: found out yet. Maybe it's because the group they were supposed to
: pair with were the plants on their planet.
: Finally, we are left with the question who are the soul-mates
: of the Shadows? Or, more poetically, what are the Shadows shadows of?
: Any thoughts?
: --Bill Sherman
Bill Sherman
User Support
-- from the playbill of the stage adaptation of "Babylon 5".
orso steven n
>"The part of Kosh will be played by a 60-watt bulb."
>-- from the playbill of the stage adaptation of "Babylon 5".
"The part of the Shadowmen will be played by Dante-II Volcano Explorers."
***************************************************************************
***** so...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ***** "Every silver lining has a cloud." *****
***************************************************************************
no one of consequence
]r...@netaxs.com (User Support) writes:
]
]>"The part of Kosh will be played by a 60-watt bulb."
]
]>-- from the playbill of the stage adaptation of "Babylon 5".
]
]"The part of the Shadowmen will be played by Dante-II Volcano Explorers."
"Starfuries provided by Tonka. Computer graphics by Atari."
Cpt. Kangarooski
dj...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> In article <ST942594-011...@129.64.11.136>
ST94...@pip.cs.brandeis.edu (Cpt. Kangarooski) writes:
> >In article <393sha$9...@xochi.tezcat.com>, il...@tezcat.com (Charles Ewen
> >MacMillan) wrote:
> >
> >-most everything deleted-
> >
> >> How about if Kosh is an human being.
> >
> >well then lets make it signifigant...
> >kosh is futureSinclair
>
> Then why would Kosh pull the ol' "Reflection...Surprise...Terror" on Talia?
well why would sinclair not tell himself anything useful in b^2?
theres some arc we havent even noticed yet.
but well find out in time, never fear.
-cpt kangarooski
Ross Jeffries
Lindstrom) wrote:
> I
>
> >: I've been puzzling over Kosh's statement in Midnight on the
> >: Firing Line for some time: "They are alone, they are a dying race, we
> >: should let them pass."
Maybe old Koshie was just having fun being enigmatic. Let's not put a
sense of humor beyond the cagey old Vorlon. Whenever someone asks me an
either or question I like to challenge them by answering, "Yes".
Kosh is just being a good Zen master, is all.
--
"The avalanche has already begun. It is useless for the pebbles to vote.".....Ambassador Kosh
BILL...@delphi.com
Ross -
I disagree with your assessment of Kosh describing 'dying races'.
I think that the Centauri had the POTENTIAL to rise above what
they are - and reach the level of the Minbari, but missed the
brass ring. They are now sliding down the wrong side of the hill.
Their current (or soon to be) rejuvination and expansive phase will
hurry their eventual decline.
The Narn - they have no psi. I think in the Great Maker's universe
this DOOMS them to a lower tier - forever.
(I wonder if their first encounter with the Shadows blighted their
race for all time???)
WEGMAN
`[1;36;41mRainbow V 1.06 for Delphi - Registered
Jmedinadk
>The Narn - they have no psi. I think in the Great Maker's universe
>this DOOMS them to a lower tier - forever.
>(I wonder if their first encounter with the Shadows blighted their
>race for all time???)
That'd make a lot of sense, especially if the Shadows bred psi ability out
of the Narn to keep them powerless while their homeworld was being used as
a Shadow garrison.
Joe Medina (Jmed...@aol.com)