Sinclair & why the Mibarri stopped fighting
Aylor, Mark
Here we go people hold on and tell me what you think of these wild guesses.
1) The hole in Sinclair's mind was created by the Minbarri (O.k. this one
isn't so wild)
2) When the Minbarri captured Sinclair and looked into his mind, they saw
his Jesuit training and realized "Hey these aren't the bad guys. In fact,
they are in the same boat we are in -- stuck between the Vorlons (good) &
the Shadows (bad). And so by Sinclair's training, it looks like they are
trying to be on the 'good' side. Maybe this 'Jesus' person was a Vorlon who
came down to lead them the right way, and their 'Devil' is one and the same
with our Shadows. If this is the case, then we need them, they need us, and
Sinclair is just the sacrificial goat to pull this all together."
Pure speculation, but what do you think?
Note: I claim no rights or priveledges if any of this is right, only luck.
M. J. Aylor
may...@ltec.com
Roy Navarre
>2) When the Minbarri captured Sinclair and looked into his mind, they saw
>his Jesuit training and realized "Hey these aren't the bad guys. In fact,
>they are in the same boat we are in -- stuck between the Vorlons (good) &
>the Shadows (bad). And so by Sinclair's training, it looks like they are
>trying to be on the 'good' side. Maybe this 'Jesus' person was a Vorlon who
>came down to lead them the right way, and their 'Devil' is one and the same
>with our Shadows. If this is the case, then we need them, they need us, and
>Sinclair is just the sacrificial goat to pull this all together."
>
>Pure speculation, but what do you think?
Nope, doesnt work.
Why would the Minbarri want Sinclair dead if he found this out?
Roy
David A Bergman
: Here we go people hold on and tell me what you think of these wild guesses.
: 1) The hole in Sinclair's mind was created by the Minbarri (O.k. this one
: isn't so wild)
: 2) When the Minbarri captured Sinclair and looked into his mind, they saw
: his Jesuit training and realized "Hey these aren't the bad guys. In fact,
: they are in the same boat we are in -- stuck between the Vorlons (good) &
: the Shadows (bad). And so by Sinclair's training, it looks like they are
: trying to be on the 'good' side. Maybe this 'Jesus' person was a Vorlon who
: came down to lead them the right way, and their 'Devil' is one and the same
: with our Shadows. If this is the case, then we need them, they need us, and
: Sinclair is just the sacrificial goat to pull this all together."
: Pure speculation, but what do you think?
I certainly hope this is not true. Atleast the religion stuff.
Aaron
: Note: I claim no rights or priveledges if any of this is right, only luck.
: M. J. Aylor
: may...@ltec.com
Todd Masco
>2) When the Minbarri captured Sinclair and looked into his mind, they saw
>his Jesuit training and realized "Hey these aren't the bad guys. In fact,
>they are in the same boat we are in -- stuck between the Vorlons (good) &
>the Shadows (bad).
Sorry, but I'd have to say "no way." I would be exceptionally disappointed
in jms if he were to pull something as simple as painting one side as good
and the other as bad. It wouldn't fit with what we've seen so far, either.
Everybody in B5 has motives. What makes the series so fascinating is
that we have no idea what some of the motives are: we only glimpse the
shadow of the characters' motives when a new situation comes up: that, so
far, seems to be what B5 is about. You take a bunch of characters with
unknown motives, throw them into new situations, and watch the result.
So far, we've seen just about every major character on B5 in both a
sympathetic and an unsypathetic light, at various times. At the end, it
all comes down to motives, and whether we believe them to honorable or
not -- or at least understandable. Assuming jms continues to do it as
well as he has so far, in the end we'll sympathize with *all* parties
(After all, cardboard villans are no fun for long).
On the other hand, this analysis *does* say that since the Mimbari reacted in
a very unexpected way to Sinclair, they must have disovered something that
showed that they had something to gain. The central question now, with
regards to the Mimbari and Sinclair, is "what?"
Signs & Portents, which also is the name of the first season, summed it all
up very well: "What do you want?"
--
Todd Masco | Bibliobytes books on computer: available through
cac...@bronze.lcs.mit.edu | any unix host with email.
"Information is the currency of democracy." - Thomas Jefferson
Eric Gross
>Pure speculation, but what do you think?
I think they saw Sinclair's Duck, and their morale quacked.
Gharlane of Eddore
(Eric Gross) writes:
>
> > Pure speculation, but what do you think?
>
> I think they saw Sinclair's Duck, and their morale quacked.
Actually, what's going on is all a very high-class Minbari virtual
reality interrogation system; there has never *been* a Babylon
station, and it's only three hours after Sinclair got scooped up
on the line.
The Minbari computers are doing an extended analysis of the ethos
and capacities of human beings, sort of ultimate rat-in-a-maze
observation.
The result, in the last episode, will be when Sinclair wakes up,
and the Boss Minbari informs him, "Well, we've just been checking
thoroughly, since we hate to waste a race of potential good
slave material. However, you won't do, and have no redeeming
virtues. Bye." And shoots him through the head, dumps him
over the side, and triggers Sol into a nova before returning
to the Minbari homeworld in time for High Tea.
(Of course, if I *really* thought this was what JMS had in mind,
I wouldn't be posting it to the Net.)
.
Scott Norton
: In article <2E11...@ENGGTY.LTEC.COM> ENG...@exesvr.ltec.COM ("Aylor, Mark")
: writes:
: >2) When the Minbarri captured Sinclair and looked into his mind, they saw
: >his Jesuit training and realized "Hey these aren't the bad guys. In fact,
: >they are in the same boat we are in -- stuck between the Vorlons (good) &
: >the Shadows (bad).
: Sorry, but I'd have to say "no way." I would be exceptionally disappointed
: in jms if he were to pull something as simple as painting one side as good
: and the other as bad. It wouldn't fit with what we've seen so far, either.
Agreed -- as far as this goes. I do think that the Minbari may
have seen from their examination of Sinclair that there was something
that they *liked* about us as well as found advantageous. Perhaps this
is no more than a minority view, such as Delenn's and perhaps Lennier's
(and perhaps this is why Lennier was selected for this mission, because
he could be expected to share her sentiments and instincts), but perhaps not.
: Everybody in B5 has motives. What makes the series so fascinating is
: that we have no idea what some of the motives are: we only glimpse the
: shadow of the characters' motives when a new situation comes up: that, so
: far, seems to be what B5 is about. You take a bunch of characters with
: unknown motives, throw them into new situations, and watch the result.
: So far, we've seen just about every major character on B5 in both a
: sympathetic and an unsypathetic light, at various times. At the end, it
: all comes down to motives, and whether we believe them to honorable or
: not -- or at least understandable. Assuming jms continues to do it as
: well as he has so far, in the end we'll sympathize with *all* parties
: (After all, cardboard villans are no fun for long).
It may take quite a while for us to comprehend the motives which
drive the Vorlons and the Shadowmen. The ONLY thing I have seen to like
in Kosh is the way he reacted to Morden.
: On the other hand, this analysis *does* say that since the Mimbari reacted
: in a very unexpected way to Sinclair, they must have disovered
: something that showed that they had something to gain. The central
: question now, with regards to the Mimbari and Sinclair, is "what?"
There is a real possibility that the Minbari want us around as
another race with similar interests and viewpoints who would make a good
ally. The Wind Swords could have found us dangerous competitors for the
same reasons that the Grey Council found us like-minded. Mind you, I
think that this is a very dubious theory, but I like it.
: Signs & Portents, which also is the name of the first season, summed it all
: up very well: "What do you want?"
Maybe -- _just_ maybe -- the Minbari want a friend.
Scott Norton sno...@netcom.com
Eric Gross
<<Deletia>>
>... And shoots him through the head, dumps him
>over the side, and triggers Sol into a nova before returning
>to the Minbari homeworld in time for High Tea.
See, you give yourself away as knowing absolutely nothing about the Minbari.
Everyone knows that the Minbari ruling castes ONLY drink Zima. :)
Judy Labovitz
proposed so far has adequately explained. How did Sinclair recognize
Delenn when he flipped her hood back and saw her face ("I know you!") ? To
me, this implies that whatever the Minbari did, Delenn was an active and
crucial part of it. Sinclair's shock at recognizing Delenn seems to be
more than simply "Delenn was the one who examined his mind and found the
???? thing that made the Minbari stop fighting the humans." His reaction,
IMHO, implies a more involved plan involving Delenn.
As for what that plan was, only the Great Maker knows (at least for
another few months).
Judy
Judith A Labovitz ju...@valinor.mythical.com
uunet!valinor!judy
I neigh, therefore I am (not). ---- Rene Descarte's horse
Curious Of All Natures
Judy Labovitz <ju...@valinor.mythical.com> wrote:
>There's one thing that was shown in AtSFoS that none of the theories
>proposed so far has adequately explained. How did Sinclair recognize
>Delenn when he flipped her hood back and saw her face ("I know you!") ?
Here's my theory. At the battle of the Line, Sinclair is taken aboard a
Minbari cruiser, etc. During his experience, he pulls back the hood of
a Minbari and gets a good look at her face. Perhaps he is the first to
see the face of the enemy, but he *does not* recognize her. Then the
Minbari cloud his memory and do who knows what else to his head, and
release him.
Sinclair meets Delenn when she arrives at B5 as an ambassador, and while
she is indeed the one he saw at the Line, he does not recognize her then.
Finally, re-experiencing his lost memories in VR, Sinclair pulls back
the hood of the Minbari - and sees someone he *now* knows.
So, if this is the case, we don't need to deal with a relationship
between Sinclair and Delenn *prior* to the Line, but we do have to deal
with the question of why the Minbari would send as an ambassador the
very one that he'd seen.
-Matt Ryan, I know you,
mb...@kimbark.uchicago.edu Curious Of All Natures
================================== ====================================
If I'm dreaming, never let me wake. You'll never see the end of the road
If I'm awake, never let me sleep. When you're traveling with me.
-old chinese fellow -Crowded House
================================== ====================================
Hill, Dave
>There's one thing that was shown in AtSFoS that none of the theories
>proposed so far has adequately explained. How did Sinclair recognize
>Delenn when he flipped her hood back and saw her face ("I know you!") ?
Matt Ryan replies:
> <snip> Finally, re-experiencing his lost memories in VR, Sinclair pulls
back
>the hood of the Minbari - and sees someone he *now* knows.
That's how I pictured it. The Sinclair in the flashback is actually the
contemporary Sinclair, reliving the experience, but a tad confused by the
VR, the drugs, the release of the suppressed memories.
Thus, upon remembering seeing Delenn *this* time round, he realizes that he
knows her, even if he cannot (because of his confusion) remember where or
how.
I actually thought it was pretty cool of him to *not* confide in Delenn at
the end of the episode, leaving her with the impression that he had
forgotten everything again.
(Has anyone noticed that Delenn has the worst poker face of any of the
ambassadors? I mean, she almost always has this unfocussed "Oh my god, my
slip is showing, isn't it? What will they think of me?" combination
worried, confused and embarrassed look.)
*** Dave Hill
*** (dh...@jacobs.com)
*** "Is it Wednesday yet?! Is it Wednesday yet?!"
Mario A Calderon
Actually, after watching _Grail_, it seems as though the religious caste
of the Minbari broke off the fighting because they consider Sinclair to be
a "True Seeker." Interesting.
Here's another thought that's been bouncing around in my head lately...
For the most part, it seems as though the speculation about the hole in
Sinclair's mind is limited to the Minbari. Urgh -- what I mean to say is
that Sinclair's hole is simply his missing 24 hours while he was aboard the
Minbari cruiser, not knowing what they did to him, why they released him,
and why they stopped fighting. I am now questioning that...
So, there's a hole in Sinclair's mind... Is it empty? If not (and I don't
think it is), what exactly is it filled with? And perhaps more importantly,
WHO PUT IT THERE? This nagging suspicion has been growing in the back of
MY mind that the Minbari are NOT responsible for what they refer to as the
hole in his mind. Yes, certainly, they're responsible for wiping his memory
before he left the cruiser -- but what if during their examination of him
they found something ELSE -- something that THEY didn't put there, something
that made them want to back out of the war in a hurry. Something that the
Vorlons put there, perhaps? I know that sounds kinda wild, but think about
it. Humans definitely seem to be under the protective influence of the
Vorlons. ("Leave here. They are not for you.") Yikes. This is giving me
chills.
P
P
markt...@delphi.com
who will come after me, bringing death in the guise of new life, and victory in
the guise of defeat." Sounds a lot like the surrender at the line to me.
Mark
(Sorry if this is choppy. Still don't have the hang of Delphi's editor yet)
Chief Rep. of n'grath Insect Repellents..
Just when I'd thought I'd seen every spelling of the word 'Minbari'..
-- GSH
For those watching Babylon 5 in the UK...
"Beware the censors... There is a hole in your episode."
rajesh_goel
The more that I think about it, the more I am reminded of that
old Asimov story "Second Game".
The main character always lost the first game, always won the
second game. Obviously, he used the first game to gauge his opponent.
He gets sent to an alien planet (what else) where the locals are a proud,
ruthless, warlike bunch (hmm...like every other sci-fi race).
Anyways, the hers gets caught as a spy and his last message to
earth is SURRENDER. Earth Surrenders.
Shift forward several hundred years (or was it several
millenia??) Anyways, the catch is: The warlike aliens are no more. The
bred with the more populous humans and as a result, their gene pool was
assimilated into humanity.
Sounds like the Mimbari are going to overcome humanity through
peace, rather than StarRiders.
======================== << Raj >> ====================================
fros...@dorsai.dorsai.org // fros...@ami3.brainlink.com
SYSOP: BrainLINK SYSTEM (718) 805-8868 // Telnet 199.184.242.4
gopher 199.184.242.111 // gopher pc1.brainlink.com
HOME of Amiga, Paradox Dos/WIN Files, TwinPeaks Gopher, India Gopher
========================================================================
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> The more that I think about it, the more I am reminded of that
> old Asimov story "Second Game".
> The main character always lost the first game, always won the
> second game. Obviously, he used the first game to gauge his opponent.
> He gets sent to an alien planet (what else) where the locals are a
> proud, ruthless, warlike bunch (hmm...like every other sci-fi race).
> Anyways, the hers gets caught as a spy and his last message to
> earth is SURRENDER. Earth Surrenders.
> Shift forward several hundred years (or was it several
> millenia??) Anyways, the catch is: The warlike aliens are no more.
> The bred with the more populous humans and as a result, their gene pool
> was assimilated into humanity.
>
I believe what you're discussing is actually a novella by Charles V.
DeVet and Catherine MacLean, first printed in "ASTOUNDING" in the
fifties, later as one-half of an Ace "Double Novel" in the early
sixties, and finally, a much-delayed sequel published in "ANALOG"
a few years back. You may possibly have seen a book-length composite
of the two yarns; I seem to remember hearing that one was in the works.
But it had nothing to do with anybody named "Asimov."
jdow on BIX
Not to worry. It is the only editor in the known universe that is actually
worse than any of the three BIX editors.
{^_^} Joanne Dow, Editor Amiga Exchange, BIX
jd...@bix.com
(and jd...@delphi.com)
David Scoggins
: In article <xcwyCNo.m...@delphi.com>, <markt...@delphi.com> wrote:
:> There is a line in the ceremony in PoD that goes "Do this in memory of the
:> one who will come after me, bringing death in the guise of new life, and
:> victory in the guise of defeat." Sounds a lot like the surrender at
:> the line to me.
: The more that I think about it, the more I am reminded of that
: old Asimov story "Second Game".
Novella actually, and I'm almost *positive* that it was not by Asimov.
Unfortunately, I can't remember who the author was - I have some vague
notion that it might have been a collaboration. I have it around here
somewhere - maybe I'll look for it tomorrow. May seem like a minor nit
to pick, but this was a *great* story - I must have read it 20 years ago,
and I *instantly* recognized the title. Asimov was great, I loved his
stuff, but credit should go to the person who actually wrote it, and <see
sentence #1>.
: The main character always lost the first game, always won the
: second game. Obviously, he used the first game to gauge his opponent.
: He gets sent to an alien planet (what else) where the locals are a proud,
: ruthless, warlike bunch (hmm...like every other sci-fi race).
: Anyways, the hers gets caught as a spy and his last message to
: earth is SURRENDER. Earth Surrenders.
: Shift forward several hundred years (or was it several
: millenia??) Anyways, the catch is: The warlike aliens are no more. The
: bred with the more populous humans and as a result, their gene pool was
: assimilated into humanity.
More like a generation, or a little less - the story ends with the two
protagonists meeting again, and the alien realizes that the human had in
fact won "the second game". Great story - find it, read it!
: ======================== << Raj >> ====================================
: fros...@dorsai.dorsai.org // fros...@ami3.brainlink.com
: SYSOP: BrainLINK SYSTEM (718) 805-8868 // Telnet 199.184.242.4
: gopher 199.184.242.111 // gopher pc1.brainlink.com
: HOME of Amiga, Paradox Dos/WIN Files, TwinPeaks Gopher, India Gopher
: ========================================================================
- David Scoggins
g...@netcom.com
Gharlane of Eddore
>rajesh_goel (fros...@dorsai.org) wrote:
>: The more that I think about it, the more I am reminded of that
>: old Asimov story "Second Game".
>
>Novella actually, and I'm almost *positive* that it was not by Asimov.
>and I *instantly* recognized the title. Asimov was great, I loved his
>stuff, but credit should go to the person who actually wrote it, and <see
>sentence #1>.
>
"THE SECOND GAME" by Charles V. DeVet and Katherine MacLean.
Published as a novella, slightly expanded to short-novel form for an
Ace "Double Novel" in the sixties (over thirty years back) and later
added to by a sequel (by Charles V. DeVet, writing alone, decades later).
Robert A. Rosenberg
> The more that I think about it, the more I am reminded of that
>old Asimov story "Second Game".
>
> The main character always lost the first game, always won the
>second game. Obviously, he used the first game to gauge his opponent.
>He gets sent to an alien planet (what else) where the locals are a proud,
>ruthless, warlike bunch (hmm...like every other sci-fi race).
>
> Anyways, the hers gets caught as a spy and his last message to
>earth is SURRENDER. Earth Surrenders.
>
> Shift forward several hundred years (or was it several
>millenia??) Anyways, the catch is: The warlike aliens are no more. The
>bred with the more populous humans and as a result, their gene pool was
>assimilated into humanity.
The story was called "Cosmic Checkmate" while the Novel was called "Second
Game" and both were by Charles V. De Vet & Katherine MacLean [DAW UE1620]
NOT by Asimov. Your description, OTOH, is basically accurate (it was only 10
or so years and the Hero was not believed but was able to talk the Aliens
into attacking the Earth Federation a planet at a time. After a few
Examples, Earth rolled over and surrendered).