"You have always been here."
Valjean
have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
So what do all you readers think he meant?
It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
So, give me your opinions on what you think this all means.
ps - sorry if this has been discussed already
--
"It sourounds us, penetrates us,
it binds the galaxy together."
John Staats
******************************************************************
Crom. I've never prayed to you before, I have no time for it. No one,
not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad; why we fought,
why we died. No. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's
what is important. Battle pleases you, Crom, so grant me one request,
grant me revenge. And if you don't listen then to hell with you.
Homepage http://www.inx.net:80/~staats/
John Staats
>In message <4cmjg6$p...@alterdial.UU.NET> - Valjean <val...@qconline.com>
>writes:
> >
> > I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
> > have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
> > expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
> > To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
> >
> > So what do all you readers think he meant?
> >
>
>sometimes the significance of Kosh's utterances are overestimated; in this
>case, I think it's an indication that Vorlons don't see past-present-future
>the way we do. Whether this implies time-travel or not, I don't know, but
>just as a concise, self-contained revelation about Vorlon perspective it's
>interesting enough.
JMS has already mentioned his like for the movie "The Shining." There is a part
where tells Brady (the ghost butler who killed his family earlier) that he used
to be the caretaker. Brady corrects him, saying to Jack "You are the caretaker,
sir, you have ALWAYS BEEN the caretaker, sir." There is also a timeless quality
about the film, not set in any particular decor to dated to a particular era.
The little girls said they wanted to play with Danny "forever, and ever, and
ever" while later Jack holds his son, saying he wished they could stay at the
Overlook Hotel "forever, and ever, and ever."
Relevant? I dunno.
Johh "I've always been here" Staats
Noel Ang
writes:
>
> I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
> have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
> expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
> To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
> So what do all you readers think he meant?
>
I just saw the rerun this week, and it got me thinking, too. I think
sometimes the significance of Kosh's utterances are overestimated; in this
case, I think it's an indication that Vorlons don't see past-present-future
the way we do. Whether this implies time-travel or not, I don't know, but
just as a concise, self-contained revelation about Vorlon perspective it's
interesting enough.
Noel Ang | Alhambra, CA USA | nd...@primenet.com
Incoming fire has right of way.
Wesley Struebing
Along these lines (I just caught it again today), it causes me to
wonder if the "lessons" Sheridan must learn are to view the world as
the Volrons do - as, I suppose, a sort of continuous loop; no real
previous, no real later - in order to fight the Shadows. And it *sort
of* fits in with the B4 mini-arc.
BTW, it seems that this sort of thinking is not unprecedented in human
terms. The Hopi, I believe, for example had no past tense in their
language - hard for a linear thinker to even visualize...
Take care and keep the faith!
Wes Struebing
[you need tiny hooks to catch microfiche]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@ix.netcom.com str...@aol.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gerald Olchowy
>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>So what do all you readers think he meant?
Kosh is Sheridan's guardian angel! -).
Gerald
Julian P. Graham
[snip]
> It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
> saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
> refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
> asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
> Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
> and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
I always assumed that the "we" referred to the Vorlons.
Regards
--
======================================================================
Julian P. Graham | "I suppose you'll have to skip the country now.
Warrington, | A fugitive, eh. You'll be hunted down like...
England. | well, a dog." Wallace, _A_Close_Shave_
============================= jpgr...@starfury.demon.co.uk ==========
Eric Edwards
> I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
> have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
> expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
> To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
> So what do all you readers think he meant?
I still don't know but I'm intrigued that there might be a link with
"Comes the Inquisitor":
"The truth? You're not ready for the truth.
The facts, if that's want you want. <Might be worded slightly different>
Yes, the Vorlons have been to earth.
The Vorlons have been everywhere.
The Vorlons ARE."
The last line might be completed as: "The Vorlons ARE *everywhere*"
The, of course, "we have always been here".
The serious problem with this analysis is that it leaves a new problem
nearly as intractible as the old one: What does it mean for the Vorlons
to be everywhere?
----
"Not many fishes, in the sea. Not many fishes, just Londo and me"
Remember the home hobbyist computer: Born 1975, died April 29, 1994
Zafaran
(Wesley Struebing) writes:
>Along these lines (I just caught it again today), it causes me to
>wonder if the "lessons" Sheridan must learn are to view the world as
>the Volrons do - as, I suppose, a sort of continuous loop; no real
>previous, no real later - in order to fight the Shadows. And it *sort
>of* fits in with the B4 mini-arc.
>
>BTW, it seems that this sort of thinking is not unprecedented in human
>terms. The Hopi, I believe, for example had no past tense in their
>language - hard for a linear thinker to even visualize...
>
>Take care and keep the faith!
>
>Wes Struebing
>
>[you need tiny hooks to catch microfiche]
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> str...@ix.netcom.com str...@aol.com
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And did you catch the note in the CIS reposts where someone asked JMS
about the fact that Sheridan's not been keeping up with his Kosh-lessons,
and Joe basically said that that fact's going to bite Sheridan on the A**
before the show's over, and other people are going to pay a hard price for
his laxity.
I don't think I want to be Smilin' John when that bill comes due.
Take care,
Pat
------------------------------------------------------------------
Patricia A. Swan zaf...@drake.dnet.net zaf...@aol.com
76571...@compuserve.com [domain name pending]
Carolina Word and Data Services, 213 Franklin St., Bryson City, NC
Louise Boyden
Gerald Olchowy in reply to Valjean writes:
Kosh is Sheridan's guardian angel
It is interesting that he says this. In the recent rerun cycle, in
CtI, Sebastian taunts Delenn that if she were the Chosen One a host
of angels would save her from his torments "at a word from her".
Strangely enough, at her word, an "angel" saves Sheridan instead.
Just a point to ponder.
Louise B.
William Andrews
: In article <4cnplh$4...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, str...@ix.netcom.com
: (Wesley Struebing) writes:
: >Along these lines (I just caught it again today), it causes me to
: >wonder if the "lessons" Sheridan must learn are to view the world as
: >the Volrons do - as, I suppose, a sort of continuous loop; no real
: >previous, no real later - in order to fight the Shadows. And it *sort
: >of* fits in with the B4 mini-arc.
: And did you catch the note in the CIS reposts where someone asked JMS
: about the fact that Sheridan's not been keeping up with his Kosh-lessons,
: and Joe basically said that that fact's going to bite Sheridan on the A**
: before the show's over, and other people are going to pay a hard price for
: his laxity.
I've had another thought on this angle. We know that the Minbari stopped
attacking earth because it was determined that at least some humans were
reincarnated Minbari. Assuming there were Vorlon casualities in the last
Shadow War. Could Sheriden be a reincarnated Vorlon? Maybe a
reincarnated member of a race older than the Vorlons? Maybe one who
always gets reincarnated about the time its necessary to take the Shadows
on again?
Andy
บà¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸š
บ KLINGON PHILOSOPHY: "Today is a good day to die." บ
บ HUMAN PHILOSOPHY: "I haven't had to kill anyone, yet, today." บ
บà¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸à¸š
Corun MacAnndra
Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
>So what do all you readers think he meant?
>
>saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
>refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
>asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
>Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
>and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
Check out the episode "Passing Through Gethsemene" and listen to the
scene where Brother Edward is talking with Delenn and Lennier. They
say that the Minbari believe that the universe is one sentient being,
and that it's broken itself up into bits in order to learn more about
itself. If the Minbari, who are a much younger race than the Vorlons,
believe this, then wouldn't the Vorlons logically have a much deeper
understanding of this? Wouldn't they realize that they are part of the
whole, and have therefore "always been here"?
Corun
--
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | The Fox Kid's Network and Dante Ahlighieri team up to
Dark Horde by birth | bring you an exciting new cartoon adventure;
Moritu by choice | Where in Hell is Carmen Sandiego
Andree Fontenot
>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
>So what do all you readers think he meant?
>
>It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
>saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
>refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
>asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
>Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
>and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
>
It seems to me that "here" is "the song." Kosh told Sheridan that his
(Sheridan's) "thoughts became the song."
I believe that you are right -- that the Vorlons perceive other levels of
the universe than we do. A hint might be in the Minbari belief that we are
all projections of the universe attempting to understand its purpose. *Perhaps*
the act of the universe trying to undertand its purpose is "the song."
--
Andree Fontenot | Lockheed Martin Corp.
Engineering Specialist | P.O. Box 748
email: fontenoa%mmc...@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com | Fort Worth, TX 76101
phone: (817)777-0733 | MZ 5985
Jeremy Lakatos
the unspoken promises, all the wished and fleshed depressions, the power
that lurked ... surged free.
(It had been there all along.)
(Since the dawn of time, it had been there.)
(It had always existed.)
The universe moves toward godhood. It started there and it wishes to
return there.
-- Harlan Ellison, "The Region Between"
--
<*> jer...@grove.ufl.edu (Beck Depression Inventory: 35)
Valjean
jer...@grove.ufl.edu (Jeremy Lakatos) wrote:
>Then, when he had all the knowledge he needed, all the secret places, all
>the unspoken promises, all the wished and fleshed depressions, the power
>that lurked ... surged free.
>
>(It had been there all along.)
>(Since the dawn of time, it had been there.)
>(It had always existed.)
>
>The universe moves toward godhood. It started there and it wishes to
>return there.
>
> -- Harlan Ellison, "The Region Between"
This reminds me of Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger."
The boy turned out to be an entity who created a universe in his "mind"
to play in; who dreamed of things which were great, but not really great
at all compared with what he himself had forgotten he was.
--
______________________________________________________________________
( | )
) Jean Valjean | "I am reaching, but I fall, and the night is (
( | closing in, and I stare into the void - to the )
) valjean@ | whirlpool of my sin. I'll escape now from the (
( qconline.com | world; from the world of Jean Valjean. Jean )
\ | Valjean is nothing now. Another story must begin!" /
\_____________|____________________________________________________/
as...@orion.alaska.edu
> Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
>>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>>
>>So what do all you readers think he meant?
>>
>>It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
>>saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
>>refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
>>asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
>>Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
>>and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
>>
>
>
> It seems to me that "here" is "the song." Kosh told Sheridan that his
> (Sheridan's) "thoughts became the song."
>
> I believe that you are right -- that the Vorlons perceive other levels of
> the universe than we do. A hint might be in the Minbari belief that we are
> all projections of the universe attempting to understand its purpose. *Perhaps*
> the act of the universe trying to undertand its purpose is "the song."
This raises another question in my mind. Does anyone know if Brother Theo
& Co. will ever ask the Vorlons what their belief in God is? And if so,
will the Vorlons answer? If someone on Compuserve or Genie could ask
JMS this question, I'd sure like to hear the answer.
Mark Nobles
> In article <4d4703$s...@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>, Andree Fontenot
<fontenoa> writes:
[Chop]
>
> This raises another question in my mind. Does anyone know if Brother Theo
> & Co. will ever ask the Vorlons what their belief in God is? And if so,
> will the Vorlons answer? If someone on Compuserve or Genie could ask
> JMS this question, I'd sure like to hear the answer.
Brother Theo: Tell me, Kosh, do the Vorlons worship god, or not?
Kosh: Yes
Brother Theo: Tell me about your god.
Kosh: You are not ready. :: turns and glides away::
Roxanne
>jer...@grove.ufl.edu (Jeremy Lakatos) wrote:
>>Then, when he had all the knowledge he needed, all the secret places, all
>>the unspoken promises, all the wished and fleshed depressions, the power
>>that lurked ... surged free.
>>
>>(It had been there all along.)
>>(Since the dawn of time, it had been there.)
>>(It had always existed.)
>>
>>The universe moves toward godhood. It started there and it wishes to
>>return there.
>>
>> -- Harlan Ellison, "The Region Between"
>This reminds me of Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger."
>The boy turned out to be an entity who created a universe in his "mind"
>to play in; who dreamed of things which were great, but not really great
>at all compared with what he himself had forgotten he was.
This is called the theory of the recursive universe. Universe as
hologram. One piece is equal to the sum total of the whole. Guess
what? We *really* have always been here. Anybody interested in
theories concerning racial memory? When Kosh stated...."You have
always been here"....the lightbulb lit up....BA-bing!!!
---------"Lovemaking is the consolation for living in the body just
as art is the consolation for living in the world."
Helmut -- The God In Flight.
Jamie Davis
On 14 Jan 1996 as...@orion.alaska.edu wrote:
> In article <4d4703$s...@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>, Andree Fontenot <fontenoa> writes:
> > Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
> >>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
> >>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
> >>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
> >>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
> >>
> >>So what do all you readers think he meant?
> >>
> >>It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
> >>saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
> >>refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
> >>asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
> >>Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
> >>and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
Yes.
> >>
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that "here" is "the song." Kosh told Sheridan that his
> > (Sheridan's) "thoughts became the song."
> >
> > I believe that you are right -- that the Vorlons perceive other levels of
> > the universe than we do. A hint might be in the Minbari belief that we are
> > all projections of the universe attempting to understand its purpose. *Perhaps*
> > the act of the universe trying to undertand its purpose is "the song."
Perhaps all thought is of one song. To hear the entire song, one must
listen to more than one's own voice. One must be open to all voices, all
songs.
Perhaps all song is of one mind, dreaming.
The shadows have awakened; when will the singing dreamer awake? What
will its concious thoughts be?
When will we know who we are?
-jamie
David Wicks
> have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
> expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
> To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
> So what do all you readers think he meant?
You do remember why the Earth-Minbari war ended, don't you?
Some business about Minbari souls being reborn in humans?
Perhaps those souls have always been here?
arm...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
> "I have always been here" spoiler:
>
>
>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>
>So what do all you readers think he meant?
>
I'd like to turn this to what Kosh meant about himself. In the dream,
he said *We* were never away, but it's only now that your mind is quiet
enough to hear *me* (paraphrase). Who did he mean by We? Did he mean
he and Sheridan? In that case, does this mean a piece of him has been
inside Sheridan's mind all along, waiting to be contacted? Is there
a little bit of a Vorlon in all of us? Some of us?
But what if Kosh meant himself both times? Maybe Vorlons are a group being,
so that to say I and We is to say the same thing. Then Kosh's answer to
Sheridan about whether a different Vorlon is inside the suit has a new
meaning: it doesn't matter which particular cell of the Vorlon entity is in
the suit, Kosh has always been there regardless.
Two other things suggest this: in In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum, when Delenn
explained about only one of the First Ones surviving, many of us were
confused, since it sounded like she said only one individual of the
First Ones survived, then later it sounded like a whole race of them
survived. We all put it down to confused writing, but what if it wasn't?
What if both statements are true: the one individual is one race at the
same time? One Vorlon or a million Vorlons, it's all the same (sound
familiar? Comes the Inquisitor: "One life or a million lives, it's all the
same!" Delenn)
Finally, all those screechy spooky special effect noises we hear when Kosh
speaks....perhaps it's not just that his woofers and tweeters need some
oil. Maybe those are all the other Vorlon voices speaking.....
Any thoughts?
Joe
Jamie Davis
>
> But what if Kosh meant himself both times? Maybe Vorlons are a group being,
> so that to say I and We is to say the same thing. Then Kosh's answer to
> Sheridan about whether a different Vorlon is inside the suit has a new
> meaning: it doesn't matter which particular cell of the Vorlon entity is in
> the suit, Kosh has always been there regardless.
>
connection.
What does this mean for us, however? Where do we fit into this universal
view? When Kosh says "You have always been here", He/they imply that
humans are also a part of this collective communion. Does the
questioning of our identities and the sacrifice referred to by Sebastian
mean that we will lose our lives becoming one, lose our individual wills, or
just our phisical constraints? What is the difference between any of these?
How can we, as humans, ever achieve knowledge of the singular nature of
the universe? If we can't seem to achieve any sort of internal
stability, how can we ever unite with the Vorlon on the level that they
are proposing?
Funky Shoes
>>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>>
>>So what do all you readers think he meant?
On a side note, when Londo is sending Vir off to Minbar, he (Londo) says
"I have always been alone." As usual, I don't know what it might mean;
just thought it was interesting.
Judy
Zafaran
writes:
>Two other things suggest this: in In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum, when Delenn
>explained about only one of the First Ones surviving, many of us were
>confused, since it sounded like she said only one individual of the
>First Ones survived, then later it sounded like a whole race of them
>survived. We all put it down to confused writing, but what if it wasn't?
JMS has said that he got the pronouns in that speech all goofed up.
Vorlons are First Ones, and there are lots more Vorlons at home besides
Kosh.
Take care,
Pat
Baby Sinclair
<Judyth...@mail.amsinc.com> wrote:
> On a side note, when Londo is sending Vir off to Minbar, he (Londo) says
> "I have always been alone." As usual, I don't know what it might mean;
> just thought it was interesting.
>
> Judy
I've been thinking about that too. My take on this is that Londo has
always felt "alienated" <sorry, couldn't help it>. He gambles and parties
a lot, like a good Centauri, but he's nearly always alone (unless
surrounded by paid sycophants). He goew around with women, but I suspect
they're always paid. His wives can't stand to be around him. He has
noone to discuss deep spiritual matters with, like a good friend. (have
you ever gotten really drunk/stoned/wasted/whatever and talked with your
friends about deeply spiritual matters? We used to call it "grooving"
way-back-when.) He told DeLenn that he missed having this kind of "talk"
with her and she replied that they never had. Londo is unwilling to open
himself up and get real. He hides behind a mask of bravado and
magnanimity.
I think his exploits (like Ragesh 7) were more fortune than forethought.
I also think he is aware of this and how much he owes to blind luck.
Also, Londo was sent to B5 not as a reward for good service but as a means
of getting rid of him for a while <I think>. Vir also was posted to B5 as
a means of getting him out of sight. The Centauri government apparently
didn't look at the B5 embassy with any regard, at least in the beginning
(way back in the two hour pilot). Londo must have been aware of this. He
is certainly aware of the price he had to pay to gain favor in the
Centaurum <Senate>.
Londo is indeed pitiable.
-- just my two cents worth
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| bbsin...@value.net | "The avalanche has already started. |
| "Gotta Love Me!" I It is too late for the pebbles to vote." |
| "Not The Momma!" | - Kosh/B5 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
EJAllen247
Jamie Davis <szc...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> writes:
>The shadows have awakened; when will the singing dreamer awake? What
>will its concious thoughts be?
Maybe the Shadows are simply ancient music critics. ; )
Eric John Allen
(ejall...@aol.com)
---------------------------------
Paranoia is your best friend, but you should always keep an eye on it.
Yan Glina
: "I have always been here" spoiler:
: On 14 Jan 1996 as...@orion.alaska.edu wrote:
: > In article <4d4703$s...@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>, Andree Fontenot <fontenoa> writes:
: > > Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
: > >>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
: > >>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
: > >>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
: > >>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
: > >>
: > >>So what do all you readers think he meant?
: > >>
: > >>It would be my guess that he is not talking of a physical place when
: > >>saying "here." It is most probably some other state of being that Kosh
: > >>refers to "here" as. If I'm not mistaken in Sheridan's dream Sheridan
: > >>asked, "Why are you here?" To which Kosh replied, "We were never away."
: > >>Did Kosh mean "we" as he and Sheridan or did he mean "we" as Garibaldi
: > >>and Ivonova <sp?> and Kosh?
: Yes.
: > >>
: > >
: > >
: > > It seems to me that "here" is "the song." Kosh told Sheridan that his
: > > (Sheridan's) "thoughts became the song."
: > >
: > > I believe that you are right -- that the Vorlons perceive other levels of
: > > the universe than we do. A hint might be in the Minbari belief that we are
: > > all projections of the universe attempting to understand its purpose. *Perhaps*
: > > the act of the universe trying to undertand its purpose is "the song."
: Perhaps all thought is of one song. To hear the entire song, one must
: listen to more than one's own voice. One must be open to all voices, all
: songs.
: Perhaps all song is of one mind, dreaming.
: The shadows have awakened; when will the singing dreamer awake? What
: will its concious thoughts be?
: When will we know who we are?
: -jamie
Enigmaticness 101, grade: A+
Kosh would be proud =)
-The Future Isn't What It Used To Be.
Caseysky
bbsin...@value.net (Baby Sinclair) writes:
> He told DeLenn that he missed having this kind of "talk"
>with her and she replied that they never had. Londo is unwilling to open
>himself up and get real. He hides behind a mask of bravado and
>magnanimity.
This reminds me of the episode where Lando waits in the bar all
night for Garibaldi to show up and talk to him, but Garibaldi got
hung up dealing with the "crisis of the day". It was pitiful, watching
Lando close down the bar, and admitting Garibaldi wasn't coming.
I got the feeling that was when he started to realize just how truly
alone he really is.
- Casey
************************************************************
* We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. *
* We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, *
* Crystal and scanner, holographic demons and *
* Invocations of equations. These are the tools we *
* employ. And we know....many things........ *
* Elric the Technomage *
************************************************************
* Case...@aol.com *
************************************************************
Jamie Davis
>
> Enigmaticness 101, grade: A+
>
> Kosh would be proud =)
>
>
> -The Future Isn't What It Used To Be.
>
>
>
Ben Madison
: Finally, all those screechy spooky special effect noises we hear when Kosh
: speaks....perhaps it's not just that his woofers and tweeters need some
: oil. Maybe those are all the other Vorlon voices speaking.....
Listen to the little bit of Kosh background noise on the B-5 soundtrack
CD. It's obviously human voices, twisted around or backwards or
something. Anyone got the equipment to untwist 'em and hear what they
say? (Probably they just say "yes".)
Ben Madison
**********************************
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since 1979, Talossa awaits your participation! Not a computer game or a
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Check out our Web Page at http://www.execpc.com/~talossa!
Matthew W Buckley
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5: 28-Jan-96 Re: "You have
always been h.. by Ben Mad...@earth.execpc
> arm...@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
>
> : Finally, all those screechy spooky special effect noises we hear when Kosh
> : speaks....perhaps it's not just that his woofers and tweeters need some
> : oil. Maybe those are all the other Vorlon voices speaking.....
>
> Listen to the little bit of Kosh background noise on the B-5 soundtrack
> CD. It's obviously human voices, twisted around or backwards or
> something. Anyone got the equipment to untwist 'em and hear what they
> say? (Probably they just say "yes".)
>
Actually, there is one that says "How you doing man", and another that
sounds alot like "Hello."
I wonder what the deeper meaning is... Or maybe Chris Franke is just
saying hi.
_ _ __
/ \/ \ | | | | |__| | | /__ Read it upside <*>
| | | \__|___|__ | |__ | | \ down!
| | | __ | __|___|__ | | |
| | __| | | | \ | | | ###################################
| | |__| | | | | \_/\_/ # Matthew Buckley: sau...@cmu.edu #
###################################
Homepage URL: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/sauron/www/
3dp...@ssnet.com
Sinclair) wrote:
>I think his exploits (like Ragesh 7) were more fortune than forethought.
>I also think he is aware of this and how much he owes to blind luck.
>Also, Londo was sent to B5 not as a reward for good service but as a means
>of getting rid of him for a while <I think>. Vir also was posted to B5 as
>a means of getting him out of sight. The Centauri government apparently
>didn't look at the B5 embassy with any regard, at least in the beginning
>(way back in the two hour pilot). Londo must have been aware of this. He
>is certainly aware of the price he had to pay to gain favor in the
>Centaurum <Senate>.
>
>Londo is indeed pitiable.
I have to add that the gradual evolving of this character was
masterfull... I have especially liked this character because while
part of you "riginally"likes this character but eventually is forced
to abhore his actions, the other part can't help but feel some pitty
and perhaps affection for this villan.
He also seems to be only person who can act, with the exception of two
others. ;)
Please Reply Via E-Mail
3dp...@ssnet.com
----
ToniFG
>listen to more than one's own voice. One must be open to all voices, all
>songs.
>Perhaps all song is of one mind, dreaming.
>The shadows have awakened; when will the singing dreamer awake? What
>will its concious thoughts be?
>When will we know who we are?
Remember in "The Quality of Mercy" when Talia scanned the murderer prior
to mindwipe. And he told her he killed people to add to his chorus. Any
connection? Just a twisted thought >;->
Toni Graybill
Al Lipscomb
: Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5: 28-Jan-96 Re: "You have
: always been h.. by Ben Mad...@earth.execpc
: >
: > arm...@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
: >
: > : Finally, all those screechy spooky special effect noises we hear when Kosh
: > : speaks....perhaps it's not just that his woofers and tweeters need some
: > : oil. Maybe those are all the other Vorlon voices speaking.....
: >
: > Listen to the little bit of Kosh background noise on the B-5 soundtrack
: > CD. It's obviously human voices, twisted around or backwards or
: > something. Anyone got the equipment to untwist 'em and hear what they
: > say? (Probably they just say "yes".)
: >
: Actually, there is one that says "How you doing man", and another that
: sounds alot like "Hello."
: I wonder what the deeper meaning is... Or maybe Chris Franke is just
: saying hi.
They are backwards masked Led Zepplin and Beatles songs.
--
Al Lipscomb | What do the Internet and CB radio | Senior
AA4YU | have in common? More and more each day.| System
a...@intnet.net | All opinions are my own. | Programmer.
John W Kennedy
>Londo is indeed pitiable.
As The Fox said in Lewis's "Till We Have Faces":
"Would you like to be [him]? No? Then [he's] pitiable."
Benjamin J Dziuba
: > Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
: >>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
: >>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
: >>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
: >>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
: >>
: >>So what do all you readers think he meant?
Just as speculation (which is all we can really do) I would use this as
proof that the Kosh that returned was not the same Vorlon who left, but
it is not inconcievable that all Vorlon are linked in some fashon, a
telepathy connecting the entire race as a collective mind.
Whoa! I better cut down on my attendance to those sci-fi conventions...
--
- CZI
--------------------
A friend is someone you'd call to help you move.
A REAL friend is someone you'd call to help you move a body.
fire...@tiac.net
>When last we saw, Funky Shoes had written:
>: > Valjean <val...@qconline.com> wrote:
>: >>I have been considering what exeactly Kosh meant in telling Sheridan "You
>: >>have always been here," and also what he said in MOH after the Captian
>: >>expressed doubt that Kosh was the same Vorlon; "I have always been here."
>: >>To which Sheridan replied, "That's what you said about me." Kosh: "Yes."
>: >>
>: >>So what do all you readers think he meant?
>Just as speculation (which is all we can really do) I would use this as
>proof that the Kosh that returned was not the same Vorlon who left, but
>it is not inconcievable that all Vorlon are linked in some fashon, a
>telepathy connecting the entire race as a collective mind.
There is some support for this in VOICES of Authority. The walkers
send over an image or something to talk to Ivanova and it adresses
it'self as We.
Roger Stenning
>>A friend is someone you'd call to help you move.
>>A REAL friend is someone you'd call to help you move a body.
Off topic I know, but DAMN! What a .sig!!!
__________________________________________________
Cheers,<*>
Roger,(S. London)
"Don't think of it as being outnumbered, pessimist:
Think of it as a wide target choice, instead"
__________________________________________________