Abuse of this newsgroup by JMS
strac...@genie.geis.com
Machines, prices on toys, where to find the soundtrack, where to find my
prior books, where to find cassettes of previous work by other actors,
and nobody raised a peep about this. The notification about Harlan's
book falls into exactly that same category; if people have a problem with
Harlan, that's their problem, but to say the rest of this is and has been
okay, but to single this out, is hypocrisy at its most obvious.
I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
So if we're going to make an issue out of this, then we should no
longer tell anyone where they can find the sountracks, or the toys, or
the books, or the prices thereof, or actors other work, or my other
books, which have no relation to B5 other than that I wrote them.
If this were strictly an advertisement for something that had nothing
to do with B5, then that's one thing, but Harlan Ellison is Babylon 5's
Conceptual Consultant, and has been for going on three years now, and I
see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
support of this forum except some people's compulsion to attack anything
involving Harlan.
jms
Bernard HP Gilroy
> On this system, there are discussions of where to find Micro
>Machines, prices on toys, where to find the soundtrack, where to find my
>prior books, where to find cassettes of previous work by other actors,
>and nobody raised a peep about this. The notification about Harlan's
>book falls into exactly that same category; if people have a problem with
>Harlan, that's their problem, but to say the rest of this is and has been
>okay, but to single this out, is hypocrisy at its most obvious.
Hmmm. I didn't read the actual original post (since I have no
interest in Trek books, Harlan's or anyone else's), but I have been
following the brouhaha it's aroused. I think there is a fundamental
difference between short posts saying, "I found XXXX at store YYY" and
longer posts saying, "Product ZZZZ is great, here's an in-depth
treatment, you should consider buying some."
Now, I'm not sure (as I admitted above) that the notice fell
into the latter category, though people do seem to feel the plug was
on the longish side. I'm just saying that there _is_ a fundamental
difference between advertising and providing info. Most people who
have said, "I found XXXX at store YYY" have been replying to earlier
please of "Where can I find XXXX?" Passing on that sort of info is
USEnet at its best. But unsolicited ads are part of USEnet at its
worst.
Of course, if someone had posted (and maybe they did) "I hear
Harlan is working on a Star Trek book ... anyone know when it's due to
hit the stores?", and then JMS (who happens to be in a good position
to know) said, "It ships next Tuesday", I think that such behavior
would not arouse much criticism. Well, not much beyond the sort of
background "It's from Straczynski -- flame 'em" posts we get daily.
But to say that an obvious ad of considerable length is
morally equivalent to a product sighting is disingenuous. To me, it's
irrelevant whether it was JMS, a different fan, or Harlan's cat. It's
still a waste of bandwidth, time, and goodwill.
On that note, I might as well stop here and await the inferno.
Bernard HP Gilroy -- gil...@leland.stanford.edu -- <b|Hp|g>
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~gilroy
"It's easy to be a pacifist when the war is over."
-- Joanne Jacobs, San Jose _Mercury News_ 1995 August 7
Samir Mahendra
<strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
> I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
>I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
>PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
Hold on! Are we talking here about the *absolutely* *fabulous*
claymation short about this (absent minded) guy, his (really smart)
dog and the evil (but inventive) penguin? Is it part of a series? If
so, what's it called, and where can I get more?
Thanks.
P.S. Uh, did I just prove JMS's point?
--
Samir Mahendra | "... some blame management, some the employees
sam...@cs.utexas.edu | and everybody knows it's the Industrial disease"
--------------- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/samirm ------ Dire Straits
Steven Chaput
: strac...@genie.geis.com said:
: > On this system, there are discussions of where to find Micro
: >Machines, prices on toys, where to find the soundtrack, where to find my
: >prior books, where to find cassettes of previous work by other actors,
: >and nobody raised a peep about this. The notification about Harlan's
: >book falls into exactly that same category; if people have a problem with
: >Harlan, that's their problem, but to say the rest of this is and has been
: >okay, but to single this out, is hypocrisy at its most obvious.
: Hmmm. I didn't read the actual original post (since I have no
: interest in Trek books, Harlan's or anyone else's), but I have been
: following the brouhaha it's aroused. I think there is a fundamental
: difference between short posts saying, "I found XXXX at store YYY" and
: longer posts saying, "Product ZZZZ is great, here's an in-depth
: treatment, you should consider buying some."
Personally, I think this has more to do with folks who have some sort of
problem with Ellison, and have to agree with JMS on this. As he says,
there have been any number of posts on this newsgroup, and others, that
deal only marginally with the topic at hand. If the item is of interest
to a majority, or even a large minority, of the folks in the group I think
that it's only fair for the rest of us to allow it.
Let's be honest, these arguements about things wasting bandwidth are a
crock for the most part. If "I" like it, it isn't a waste...If "I" don't
like it ban it!
Since my system doesn't carry the Ellison newsgroup (as far as I can
tell), and since I was unaware of the book, I was happy to hear about
it. Like watching a show on TV, if you don't like something or aren't
interested, ignore it or switch it off.
Finally, I think we should certainly allow JMS a bit more lee way then
most folks to begin with. This group wouldn't even be here if not for
his creating the show. Besides, how many of us would continue to post
here on a regular basis if HE wasn't around? It would be too much like
the ST groups, if you ask me. Though I don't suppose anyone is!
Just my .02!
Steve
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
sh...@panix.com "That's beyond authentic, it's almost primal!" - me
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Charles Henrich
I think the problem Joe was simply with the wording of the post. I know when I
read it I felt a little offended by it, and I like Harlan! If the post had
been in the form of "Harlan has written a new book on the Star Trek episode
"City on the edge of ..." and thought you all might like to check it out,
you can get it at any number of places its ISBN ###"
Not a word would have been said, but instead it looked like a polished
advertising out of some magazine, which leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths,
as its no longer a personal endorsement, or notification of availability, but a
blatent advertisement.
Just my thoughts.
-Crh
--
Charles Henrich Michigan State University hen...@crh.cl.msu.edu
Kurt Reisler
Samir Mahendra <sam...@cs.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In article <199508142056...@relay1.geis.com>,
> <strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
>
>> I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
>>I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
>>PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
>
>Hold on! Are we talking here about the *absolutely* *fabulous*
>claymation short about this (absent minded) guy, his (really smart)
>dog and the evil (but inventive) penguin? Is it part of a series? If
>so, what's it called, and where can I get more?
There are two "Wallace and Gromet" episodes. The first "A Grand Day
Out" is not available in the US. The second, "The Wrong Trousers" is
available in the US. There may be an Xmass special in the works as
well. Other than it being anothre example of Quality on TV, it has
nothing to do with B5. But who cares!
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
<*> Ignore the petty dysfunctional, and the CRI fiends <*>
Jasen V Edralin
: strac...@genie.geis.com said:
: > On this system, there are discussions of where to find Micro
: >Machines, prices on toys, where to find the soundtrack, where to find my
: >prior books, where to find cassettes of previous work by other actors,
: >and nobody raised a peep about this. The notification about Harlan's
: >book falls into exactly that same category; if people have a problem with
: >Harlan, that's their problem, but to say the rest of this is and has been
: >okay, but to single this out, is hypocrisy at its most obvious.
: Hmmm. I didn't read the actual original post (since I have no
: interest in Trek books, Harlan's or anyone else's), but I have been
: following the brouhaha it's aroused. I think there is a fundamental
: difference between short posts saying, "I found XXXX at store YYY" and
: longer posts saying, "Product ZZZZ is great, here's an in-depth
: treatment, you should consider buying some."
: Now, I'm not sure (as I admitted above) that the notice fell
: into the latter category, though people do seem to feel the plug was
: on the longish side. I'm just saying that there _is_ a fundamental
: difference between advertising and providing info. Most people who
: have said, "I found XXXX at store YYY" have been replying to earlier
: please of "Where can I find XXXX?" Passing on that sort of info is
: USEnet at its best. But unsolicited ads are part of USEnet at its
: worst.
: Of course, if someone had posted (and maybe they did) "I hear
: Harlan is working on a Star Trek book ... anyone know when it's due to
: hit the stores?", and then JMS (who happens to be in a good position
: to know) said, "It ships next Tuesday", I think that such behavior
: would not arouse much criticism. Well, not much beyond the sort of
: background "It's from Straczynski -- flame 'em" posts we get daily.
: But to say that an obvious ad of considerable length is
: morally equivalent to a product sighting is disingenuous. To me, it's
: irrelevant whether it was JMS, a different fan, or Harlan's cat. It's
: still a waste of bandwidth, time, and goodwill.
: On that note, I might as well stop here and await the inferno.
: Bernard HP Gilroy -- gil...@leland.stanford.edu -- <b|Hp|g>
: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~gilroy
: "It's easy to be a pacifist when the war is over."
: -- Joanne Jacobs, San Jose _Mercury News_ 1995 August 7
Harlan's cat is online? After what he said about the net?
-Marc
Travers Naran
> On this system, there are discussions of where to find Micro
>Machines, prices on toys, where to find the soundtrack, where to find my
>prior books, where to find cassettes of previous work by other actors,
>and nobody raised a peep about this. The notification about Harlan's
>book falls into exactly that same category; if people have a problem with
>Harlan, that's their problem, but to say the rest of this is and has been
>okay, but to single this out, is hypocrisy at its most obvious.
That's what I thought.
> I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
>I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
>PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
>place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
Exactly -- without you, I wouldn't have even known there was going to be a
book. Finally, Thaxton Ford will be put into his place (he claims Ellison's
original script was crap and Roddenberry's version was the brilliant one). :-)
> If this were strictly an advertisement for something that had nothing
>to do with B5, then that's one thing, but Harlan Ellison is Babylon 5's
>Conceptual Consultant, and has been for going on three years now, and I
>see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
>support of this forum except some people's compulsion to attack anything
>involving Harlan.
You tell him, JMS!
BTW, I saw my first Captain Power episode today. Peter Detillo script to boot!
Bruce Welch
[snip]
: I
:see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
:support of this forum except
[snip]
The newsgroup charter?
--
this signature being renovated ... excuse the mess
jere7my tho?rpe
* strac...@genie.geis.com wrote:
*
*[snip]
*
*: I
*:see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
*:support of this forum except
*
*[snip]
*
*The newsgroup charter?
Fine, but if you want to start enforcing it now, you'll have to
enforce it for all the other B5-related product notifications which get
posted here.
----j7y
**************************** <*> ****************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Arf, arf."
Physicist and Artist Guy The sound of certain death in
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu the land of the 50-ton dogs.
(610) 604-0669 (Mister Boffo)
Jason Carter
: There are two "Wallace and Gromet" episodes. The first "A Grand Day
: Out" is not available in the US.
I just got the tape of "The Wrong Trousers" and it has a "coming soon to
videotape" promo for "A Grand Day Out" (which I've seen in the theater and is
*totally* worth hunting for). Unfortunately, no release date was mentioned.
If anyone finds this in a store, PLEASE post! (And ignore the flaming
idiots--if they don't care to expand their intellectual horizons by trying
something new once in a while, then screw 'em!)
Jason
kmos...@lcp.com
> strac...@genie.geis.com said:
[munch]
> gil...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Bernard HP Gilroy) writes some more:
[more munch]
> But to say that an obvious ad of considerable length is
> morally equivalent to a product sighting is disingenuous. To me, it's
> irrelevant whether it was JMS, a different fan, or Harlan's cat. It's
> still a waste of bandwidth, time, and goodwill.
>
Anyway, I don't believe JMS compared his post to just the "find XXX at YYY store".
In case you have forgotten, the B5 soundtrack was advertised on this newsgroup
before it was out.... I would presume by JMS (I was not reading the group at the time,
but my friends were). And he has already apologized for the length of the article,
he (JMS) was just caught up in it.... and beyond it all, I have a problem with people
it a waste of bandwidth with articles bigger than the original post (and this is not just
directed at Mr. Gilroy, almost all involved have done so)
I am not trying to say you cannot be upset, but the uproar is more of a waste of time
and energy than the original post was to most people who were offended (of which I
was not one).
Kurt Mosiejczuk
kmos...@lcp.com
Scott Rainey
[snip]
> Harlan Ellison is Babylon 5's
>Conceptual Consultant, and has been for going on three years now, and I
>see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
>support of this forum except some people's compulsion to attack anything
>involving Harlan.
>
> jms
Some people hate to see ya make a buck.
Some people love to bitch.
If they can't take a f*ck, Joke 'em.
Paul Dixon
On 14 Aug 1995, Samir Mahendra wrote:
> In article <199508142056...@relay1.geis.com>,
> <strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
>
> > I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
> >I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
> >PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
>
> Hold on! Are we talking here about the *absolutely* *fabulous*
> claymation short about this (absent minded) guy, his (really smart)
> dog and the evil (but inventive) penguin? Is it part of a series? If
> so, what's it called, and where can I get more?
>
> Thanks.
>
Yes, that's the one. There's also "A Grand Day Out" where Wallace and
Grommit build a rocket to get to the moon so they can try moon cheese on
their crackers!
Paul
David Stinson
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) wrote:
> br...@rpl.regina.sk.ca wrote:
>
> * strac...@genie.geis.com wrote:
*
> *: I
> *:see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
> *:support of this forum except
> *
> *[snip]
> *
> *The newsgroup charter?
>
> Fine, but if you want to start enforcing it now, you'll have to
> enforce it for all the other B5-related product notifications which get
> posted here.
>
> ----j7y
I would also like someone to quote intact the applicable section of the
newsgroup charter. Since I don't remember that prohibition being in there
(especially on JMS in particular). Or is this a case where it has been
presumed to be contrary to the charter?
--
David A. Stinson Personal Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves
Product Integration Work E-Mail : da...@procom.com
Engineer Personal E-Mail : dsti...@ix.netcom.com or
Procom Technology, Inc. dast...@aol.com
Hardin Brett Arvid
| * strac...@genie.geis.com wrote:
| *
| *[snip]
| *
| *: I
| *:see absolutely *NO* reason, moral or ethical, why he should be denied the
| *:support of this forum except
| *
| *[snip]
| *
| *The newsgroup charter?
I don't suppose you have a copy handy?
The term 'Unmoderated' means just that. No more, no less. UN-moderated.
The rules of conduct are informal, unofficial and basically pretty
simple:
Don't be rude.
The creation of the internet & these newsgroups was to create a place
where people,originaly from university settings, but that is changing
rapidly, could exchange ideas without a tone of paperwork & comitee
hearings from the outside deciding what could & couldn't be discussed.
In short, pretty much any topic is game, so long as it can be reasonable
considered as relevent to the people who 'hang out' in an area, and so
long as you (being anyone) don't get in peoples faces mindlessly with
little other motives than to cause problems. Small references to other
discussions, information, sales, tours, boat rides, bubblegum wrappers &
scientific experiments that in some way MIGHT interest the viewers of B5
would (in the original concept of net news) be considered fair game.
Part of the wonder of the internet is not just that you can find the
information you want, but that a lot of the time, the information comes
to you. If someone felt like starting a Harlan Elison fan club.hate
club/sidcusison group here, that would be different.
It would not be practicle to start a
"misc.tidbit.news.thosewhowatchspaceshows verymuchlike.B5" group, since
there are not that many announcements of this sort that get made. And a
alt.misc.announce would not get used by anyone! misc.announce.sf would
not get the attention of all b5 fans, so the information is of value
here.
A repeat post would be considered rude (unless requested) and a
constantly updated post would undoubtable cause a letterbomb campain.
The act of letterbombing is a waste of net resources, but has been the
traditional way of telling people to back off for quite a while now.
The recomended way of posting an off topic bit of information would have
been to post the info to alt.misc.anounce (or whatever it is called
these days- {announce}) and then post a reference to it here. But
considering that the post was only 2k tops, that would hardly be worth
the trouble of getting people (some of which would have to pay quite a
bit to get the extra newsgroup btw) to have to go look elsewhere.
| Fine, but if you want to start enforcing it now, you'll have to
| enforce it for all the other B5-related product notifications which get
| posted here.
| ----j7y
| **************************** <*> ****************************
| jere7my tho?rpe "Arf, arf."
| Physicist and Artist Guy The sound of certain death in
| jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu the land of the 50-ton dogs.
| (610) 604-0669 (Mister Boffo)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| LightSmith -the magazine -- Lightwave 3D Tutorials,
| Hints, and Solutions
All opinions are| ASK FOR DETAILS from the Experts in the
mine, and should| IF INTERESTED field.
conflict |
minimaly |----------------------------------------------------------
with reality!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lestat
>
>In article <199508142056...@relay1.geis.com>,
> <strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
>
>> I have, on occasion, used this forum to point people to things
>>I thought would be of interest, related to their interests, including the
>>PBS airing of "The Wrong Trousers," which I promoted here all over the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>place, and which helped lots of them find a show they loved.
>
>Hold on! Are we talking here about the *absolutely* *fabulous*
>claymation short about this (absent minded) guy, his (really smart)
>dog and the evil (but inventive) penguin? Is it part of a series? If
>so, what's it called, and where can I get more?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--
>Samir Mahendra | "... some blame management, some the employees
>sam...@cs.utexas.edu | and everybody knows it's the Industrial disease"
>--------------- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/samirm ------ Dire Straits
history of the universe!) is one of, at the moment, two cartoons by
superb animator Nick Park. The other one is called "A grand day out", and
is in fact the prequel to TWT. Both feature the gormless Wallace, who,
with his faithful doggy Gromit, get into fun adventures and mishaps.
Lestat.
P.S. Gromit's favourite book is "Electronics for dogs", and they both
live on cheese.
Robert Holland
>
Naaa, you stated your case well. I'm surprised there are any complaints at all.
JMS uses this forum to sell sell sell micromachines, convention tickets, his
tv show, comics, trading cards and any other item that has any remote
connection to B5. He'd probably sell used BINGO cards with the B and the 5 X-ed
out, if he
were Catholic.
I had the impression Ellison's limited-print book (quite pricey!) wasn't
selling
well through regular channels, and Joe was helping his buddy by plopping a bit
of ad copy out on the net to drum up interest.
I just thank God he's not hawking old props from Lansbury's show.
Do people like Harlan? Does it matter? I like some of his work (lord knows I've
read enough) but Ellison's always been a pain-in-the-ass, personality-wise.
He dislikes fans of any kind--even his own. He writes scripts then changes his
name in the credits when he doesn't like the editing.
The oddest thing to me is Ellison isn't writing scripts for B5. Joe says it's
his health. He must have some resentment, or disagreement with the arc. Here's
a unique opportunity for Ellison--a sci-fi tv show that is controlled in every
aspect by his friend, from concept to editing. This is so rare, it still amazes
me JMS was able to pull it off. Yet Ellison doesn't write for theshow. Odd, eh?
Very, very strange.
Dirk A Loedding
kmos...@lcp.com wrote:
[lots of snippage]
>and beyond it all, I have a problem with people it a waste of bandwidth
>with articles bigger than the original post
I was just thinking along the same lines... All the complaints and
bitching and moaning, as well as the applause and the defending of JMS
has taken up one *hell* of a lot more bandwidth and net.resources than
JMS's original posting. (And, of course this article adds to that.)
Interesting, isn't it...
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk A. Loedding <*> ju...@america.net |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
J. Eric Townsend
warning: anti-ellison sarcasm follows.
"straczynski" == straczynski <strac...@genie.geis.com> writes:
straczynski> if
straczynski> people have a problem with Harlan, that's their problem,
actually, it's a sign of intelligence...
[ducking]
--
J. Eric Townsend j...@genmagic.com USA 408.774.4252 (play: j...@well.sf.ca.us)
AT&T PersonaLink: A5803...@attpls.net
<a href="http://www.spies.com/jet/jet.html">URL bandwagon of hipitude</a>
*** Affiliation shown for identification and contact purposes only. ***
James Shearhart
: Kurt Reisler (k...@umbc.edu) wrote:
: Jason
Hey is that also the zany lot who did the Chevron gas commercials
(U.S.)? Great stuff! And another point that just occured to me, they also
did the one short about animals describing their situation in a London zoo!
"Space! I need space! And meat!"
--
-----------------------------------------+-----------------------------------
"All wired up and going straight to Hell.| James Shearhart<jam...@sonic.net>
Just like that." | Writer/Cynic/Collector of Stuff
-- Bill Sienkiewicz, "Stray Toasters" | E-mail for Opinion on Anything
-----------------------------------------+-----------------------------------
Rod edwards
Bob Evans
: If this were strictly an advertisement for something that had nothing
: to do with B5, then that's one thing, but Harlan Ellison is Babylon 5's
: Conceptual Consultant, and has been for going on three years now, and I
: support of this forum except some people's compulsion to attack anything
: involving Harlan.
:
: jms
That's telling'em Joe!
As a person who asked and went looking for works by you that had nothing
to due directly wuth Bab5 I support you completely. The ONLY this about
that post that upset me is that my impoverished condition forces me to
wait until the trade release. :(
BOb
Barry John Platt
>There are two "Wallace and Gromet" episodes. The first "A Grand Day
>available in the US. There may be an Xmass special in the works as
>well. Other than it being anothre example of Quality on TV, it has
>nothing to do with B5. But who cares!
There is definitely a third being made, probably for a christmas premiere
in the UK this year. FYI "The Wrong Trousers" was originally a christmas
film in 1993 (I think). Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the
new film, I just remember a hilarious picture in the Daily Telegraph
of Tony Blair visiting the set, with his head showing through a window.
Ooops. I believe this is just a wee smidgen off topic. Sorry.
Great films though.
--
Barry Platt (bj...@doc.ic.ac.uk)
Undergraduate Computing 2nd Year / Social Clubs Chair
Imperial College, London
Jason Carter
> Hey is that also the zany lot who did the Chevron gas commercials
> (U.S.)? Great stuff! And another point that just occured to me, they also
> did the one short about animals describing their situation in a London zoo!
> "Space! I need space! And meat!"
You are correct on both counts. The zoo short is called "Creature Comforts"
and can be found on several compilations often available at your local
Suncoast. I have phone #s for Expanded Entertainment, who also publish a
line of these tapes. email me if you want them.
Robin Edmonds
>There is also 'creature comforts' by the same guy....
>
(Wendolene Ramsbottom). What about Wallace & Gromit meet the Minbari ?
Robin
Robert J. Frey
: The rules of conduct are informal, unofficial and basically pretty
: simple:
: Don't be rude.
Oh great one, your wisdom is like a shining beacon in the darkness.
And I ain't kiddin' 'bout that neither!
"Don't be rude," should be our mantra before we sign on. Politeness
and tolerance go a long way.
--
Regards,
Robert (rjf...@rentec.com)
jere7my tho?rpe
*Your assuming that these people actually _do_ think. If they ceased
*attacking me personally, they'd have to actually address the point
*I was making in the original post, and apparantly they either can
*not do so or do not want to do so.
Dennis:
I, at least, have not attacked you, and _have_ addressed the
original point. Several times, in fact. And JMS and others have done
the same, albeit perhaps with attacks added. To wit:
JMS was only doing what countless others have done on this
newsgroup, and what he himself has done countless times, wrt "The Wrong
Trousers," "Murder, She Wrote," and many B5-related things: posting
information about something of interest to the readers of this group.
If you're calling him on this particular post, you should have called
him many times before, as well as me and dozens of others on this group
who posted "advertisements."
For instance, what about the many people who said "Micromachines
found at..." or "You can order the CD from..." or "You can get 'The
Wrong Trousers' at..." or "Buy this magazine because it has an article
about Foundation Imaging" or "_Othersyde_ is great!" or "The B5 comic
can be ordered by calling (XXX) XXX-XXXX; they accept Visa, Mastercard,
and..."? All of these are posts which I've seen here, and they don't
come close to being a complete list; why do they not offend you? I
have yet to see you answer this simple question. So I'll posit a
potential answer:
It looks to me like you've singled JMS out, _because he is a
celebrity_ (on this group, at least). In other words, you're doing
what you've accused us of doing: treating JMS differently because of
who he is. As I said before, this is not so much abuse of celebrity
as abuse of _a_ celebrity. I ask you again: why do you object to this
post, when you have not objected to the dozens of similar posts I've
seen here?
As a supplemental answer, it may be because you have expressed
strong dissatisfaction with Harlan Ellison, and get a bit unreasonable
when faced with his work. I've seen you call his forthcoming book
(paraphrased slightly) "his piss-n-moan Trek bitch book," for example.
I will grant you that JMS' post was phrased in a bad way, coming
across as too much like an advertisement or press release; still, I
think we should cut him as much slack as we'd cut anybody else who
phrased a post in a bad way. Getting this worked up over a question of
style seems very strange; there must be more there. I honestly don't
think I'm treating JMS any differently than I would any other poster,
which seems to be your primary beef; I can't say the same for you.
Dennis O'Connor
an...@spdcc.com (Ailsa Murphy) wrote:
] SHUT THE FUCK UP. It's long since degenerated into one of the most appalling
] displays of out-and-out childishness I've ever seen, to the point where some
] pathetic schmuck actually posted saying "liar, liar, pants on fire"! Now,
] I'm not saying that I agree with that jackass O'Connor, but surely we can
] tell him what we think of him without using phrases that my 8 year old
] niece thinks are for babies. *sigh*
Your assuming that these people actually _do_ think. If they ceased
attacking me personally, they'd have to actually address the point
I was making in the original post, and apparantly they either can
not do so or do not want to do so.
] And before anyone says "well, *you're* reading it, aren't you?"
] or "well, *you* posted to it, too.", let me point out that I at least
] kept my mouth shut until ...
You also had the moral courage to censure people who are attacking
somone unpopular with lies, distortions and defamation. This speaks
well of you, regardless of your stand on the particular issue that
got all these childish people you castigate so hot and bothered.
] Kate Cunningham
--
---
Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
Dennis O'Connor -FT-~
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) writes:
] dm...@primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor) wrote:
]
] *Your assuming that these people actually _do_ think. If they ceased
] *attacking me personally, they'd have to actually address the point
] *I was making in the original post, and apparantly they either can
] *not do so or do not want to do so.
]
] Dennis:
]
] I, at least, have not attacked you, and _have_ addressed the
] original point.
Then you are not one of the people Kate was castigating, are you ?
Therefor, these comments don;t apply to you, do they ?
] JMS was only doing what countless others have done on this
] newsgroup, and what he himself has done countless times,
Posted complete commercial press realeases ? I doubt it, but
even if so, I didn't see them, and therefor did not object.
And "other people do it" or "it's been done before" is no excuse.
] For instance, what about the many people who said "Micromachines
] found at..."
_B5_ Micromachines
] or "You can order the CD from..."
_B5_ soundtrack CDs
] or "You can get 'The Wrong Trousers' at..."
I never saw commercially-prepared ad copy ( or it's equivalent )
associated with any of the few "Wrong Trousers" posts I happened to read.
Besides, your argument is akin to letting off a shoplifter
because of all the other shoplifters who got away with it.
It doesn't hold.
] All of these are posts which I've seen here, and they don't
] come close to being a complete list; why do they not offend you?
1) I _have_ bitched about people doing commercial posts to this
group before : remember the guy that kept re-posting an ad
for his company that sold the B5 soundtrack ? I bitched,
others bitched, he stopped, end of story. No fanboys lept
forward to defend this guy's commercial posts, but then,
he wasn;t JMS, was he ?
2) People posting "See movie X, if you like B5 you'll like it,
it's avialable at Y" is NOT a commercial post.
3) What I don't read doesn't offend me.
Now, which of these was not obvious to you ?
] I have yet to see you answer this simple question.
Personally, I think the answer is pretty damn obvious.
Contrary to the old chestnut, there _are_ stupid questions.
] So I'll posit a potential answer:
Practicing net.telepathy without a license from PsiCorps ?
] It looks to me like you've singled JMS out, _because he is a
] celebrity_ (on this group, at least).
Yeah, that explains why I bitched about the guy posting the catalougue :
he must have been JMS. Which is to say : your insulting attempt at
net.telepathy is provably wrong by anyone with an archive. If it
"looks to you" that way, I suggest you check your mental eyesight :
your just seeing what you want to see, aren't you ? It's always
easier for you to believe that your favorite celebrity (be it JMS
or O.J.) is being attacked because they are a celebrity than
to beleive they actually did something wrong, isn't it ?
] In other words, you're doing what you've accused us of doing:
] treating JMS differently because of who he is.
Go did into an archive. You are wrong. Period.
] As I said before, this is not so much abuse of celebrity
] as abuse of _a_ celebrity.
Believe what you need to believe, fanboy, that don't make it so.
] I ask you again: why do you object to this
] post, when you have not objected to the dozens of similar posts I've
] seen here?
Feh. Were you really to stupid to figure out any answer better than
the insulting and assinine one you came up with ? Were the answers
I gave above really beyond your imagining ? Are you _that_ pathetic ?
] As a supplemental answer, it may be because you have expressed
] strong dissatisfaction with Harlan Ellison, and get a bit unreasonable
] when faced with his work. I've seen you call his forthcoming book
] (paraphrased slightly) "his piss-n-moan Trek bitch book," for example.
Paraphrased lots. Try "vanity Trek Bitch book", it's closer. Now
tell me how that is not an accurate summary of the description of
the book given in JMS' posted press-release and the history of
Ellison's conflict over the episode.
] I will grant you that JMS' post was phrased in a bad way, coming
] across as too much like an advertisement or press release; still, I
] think we should cut him as much slack as we'd cut anybody else who
] phrased a post in a bad way.
And I did. I cut him exactly as much slack as I cut for
the "Make Money Fast" and catalouge-posting guys : none.
] Getting this worked up over a question of
] style seems very strange; there must be more there.
There surely is : my under-10-line posting ignited thousands
of lines of hostile, often incoherent BS postings from the
Fanboys and Fangirls, and a fair amount of embarrassing (to him)
response from JMS as well. You tell me who over-reacted : me
with 8 lines, or the (pathetic) people sending me hate-e-mail ?
There's more here all right : I struck close to the bone,
judging from the reaction. If I wasn't right on or damn close
to the mark, why would so many people respond so violently ? Hmm ?
] I honestly don't think I'm treating JMS any differently than I would
] any other poster,
How much slack have you cut _me_ lately ? Less than zero, I'd say,
given your net.telepathic attempt to come up with defamatory motivations
for my posting.
] which seems to be your primary beef; I can't say the same for you.
What you say seems to have little validity, I'm afraid.
--
Dennis O'Connor doco...@sedona.intel.com
i960(R) Architecture and Core Design Not an Intel spokesman.
TIP#518 Fear is the enemy.
jere7my tho?rpe
work here.
I got e-mail from some kind soul a few minutes ago, saying in
essence "thanks for posting something reasonable to this thread; I was
beginning to worry that there wasn't any sanity left here." Made me
feel quite good, actually. Because that's just what I try to do.
And this is how Dennis responded to that self-same post:
doco...@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor -FT-~) wrote:
[snip]
*Believe what you need to believe, fanboy, that don't make it so.
[snip]
*Feh. Were you really to stupid to figure out any answer better than
*the insulting and assinine one you came up with ? Were the answers
*I gave above really beyond your imagining ? Are you _that_ pathetic ?
So, thanks to my post, Dennis called me 1) a fanboy, 2) stupid,
and 3) pathetic. He also called my post insulting and "assinine"
[sic]; I try very hard to avoid the former, particularly in this case,
and generally hope I succeed at avoiding the latter. (I encourage
everyone to go back, re-read my post, and form their own opinions,
though; I could very well have failed in my intent. It starts with
"Dennis: I, at least, have not attacked you, and _have_ addressed the
original point.")
But, as I said above, never mind.
I'll make a confession here. I have a little fantasy about my Net
presence. I fantasize that, when somebody flames me, my reputation as
a reasonable and gentle poster causes the others on this group to say
to themselves, "Huh. [Person X] just flamed jere7my. [X] just lost a
lot of credibility in my book." Of course, in reality, I'm probably
vastly over-estimating my name recognition here, but we all have our
dreams, no? :)=
Anyway, since reason is clearly going to bounce off this debate
like pecans off a windshield, I say, with great relish, and to annoy
Congressman Exon: fuck it. As far as I, and most others here, care,
JMS did nothing wrong. I see no need to keep repeating this over and
over again, especially since Dennis all but admitted in his reply that
he was really just objecting to the fact that JMS phrased his post like
a commercial press release, rather than the actual content. (Vis.:
"People posting 'See movie X, if you like B5 you'll like it, it's
avialable at Y' is NOT a commercial post," whereas JMS' post was. The
content is the same; only the style is different.)
So...bye, everybody--I'll see you in other, better threads. :)=
Oh, one minor return volley:
I wrote, quoting an earlier post of Dennis':
*] (paraphrased slightly) "his piss-n-moan Trek bitch book," for
*] example.
and Dennis wrote:
*Paraphrased lots. Try "vanity Trek Bitch book", it's closer.
"Piss-n-moan Trek bitch book," which I quoted from memory from a
post I cursorily glanced at, is, I think, a pretty reasonable
paraphrase of "vanity Trek Bitch book." But I guess that's just my
drooling fanboy admiration of JMS screwing with my perceptions...
Water: on. Soap: wet. Hands: washed.
----j7(waiting for October...*sigh*)y
Dennis O'Connor -FT-~
king...@aol.com (KINGZILLA) writes:
] In article <DOCONNOR.A...@sedona.intel.com>,
] doco...@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor -FT-~) writes:
]
] >
] >1) I _have_ bitched about people doing commercial posts to this
] > group before : remember the guy that kept re-posting an ad
] > for his company that sold the B5 soundtrack ? I bitched,
] > others bitched, he stopped, end of story. No fanboys lept
] > forward to defend this guy's commercial posts, but then,
] > he wasn;t JMS, was he ?
] Dennis while I don't consider myself a fanboy,I did post that the Pegasus
] gent only posted CD, B5 Font info etc. after someone would ask about said
] items.I posted that info after reading your dressing down of Mr. Merritt
] for advertising on the net.While you weren't exactly 'nice' to Mr. Merritt
] you certainly didn't call him an asshole either.
And I did not call JMS an asshole merely for posting an ad, either.
That came later, and for different reasons, and I did not so much
call JMS an asshole as render the opinion that he was acting like one.
There's a difference between the two, and it's not subtle : who among
us can honestly claim to _never_ have, at some time, acted like an asshole ?
] Dennis you even use Kates post like shew as showing you support and
] dissing everyone else!!
No, I did not. I gave Kate credit she was due. If I'd implied
she was supporting or agreeing with me, I think she would have
let me know her objection to me doing so.
] You better read it again ...
I suggest you read my reply to it with a more objective slant.
Pretend someone else beside me had posted my reply, and see how
much the meaning seems to change. A useful exercise, I think,
in many many instances.
Dennis O'Connor -FT-~
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) writes:
] Okay, never mind. Clearly, reasonable postings aren't going to
]
] I got e-mail from some kind soul a few minutes ago, saying in
] essence "thanks for posting something reasonable to this thread; I was
] beginning to worry that there wasn't any sanity left here." Made me
] feel quite good, actually. Because that's just what I try to do.
]
] And this is how Dennis responded to that self-same post:
] doco...@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor -FT-~) wrote:
]
] [snip]
]
] *Believe what you need to believe, fanboy, that don't make it so.
]
] [snip]
]
] *Feh. Were you really to stupid to figure out any answer better than
] *the insulting and assinine one you came up with ? Were the answers
] *I gave above really beyond your imagining ? Are you _that_ pathetic ?
]
] So, thanks to my post, Dennis called me 1) a fanboy, 2) stupid,
] and 3) pathetic. He also called my post insulting and "assinine"
] [sic]; I try very hard to avoid the former, particularly in this case,
] and generally hope I succeed at avoiding the latter. (I encourage
] everyone to go back, re-read my post, and form their own opinions,
] though; I could very well have failed in my intent. It starts with
] "Dennis: I, at least, have not attacked you, and _have_ addressed the
] original point.")
BULLSHIT. Posting your assumption that my original post was motivated
merely by a desire to attack JMS is an insult and an attack, regardless
of how "nicely" you phrase it.
BTW, I see that you have actually refused to address _any_ of the
points or refutations of your drivel that were in my reply.
Instead, you whine about being called names. So, I assume you
are actually incapable of countering my arguments, and concede
that I am right ?
Which is fine with me, of course. I usually am right. That's
part of why I'm so annoying.
I think the reaction of people like "jere7my tho?rpe" pretty
much validates my charge of "abuse of celebrity", BTW. These
people are defending JMS _not_ because his behavior was right,
but only because he is JMS. That's what makes JMS' posted ad
"abuse of celebrity" : he knew he'd get away with improper
behavior because of who he was.
Mel Wilson
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) wrote:
> [ ... ]
> I'll make a confession here. I have a little fantasy about my Net
>presence. I fantasize that, when somebody flames me, my reputation as
>a reasonable and gentle poster causes the others on this group to say
>to themselves, "Huh. [Person X] just flamed jere7my. [X] just lost a
>lot of credibility in my book."
It happens.
Regards. Mel.
jere7my tho?rpe
*BTW, I see that you have actually refused to address _any_ of the
*points or refutations of your drivel that were in my reply.
*Instead, you whine about being called names. So, I assume you
*are actually incapable of countering my arguments, and concede
*that I am right ?
I repeat myself, despite my stated intention to abandon this
thread, only because you seem to have misunderstood my last
posting. This _will_ be my last posting to this thread; you may
take that however you wish. I think most people here will
understand.
So, one more time: I see no point in engaging in debate with
someone who calls me "stupid" and "pathetic." I see no point in
engaging in debate with someone who calls my responses "drivel"
and "asinine." I see no point in subjecting myself to that sort
of thing, knowing that anything reasonable I might say is going to
be either ignored or insulted.
I cannot think of any reason to argue with someone as
volatile and antagonistic as you. I'd prefer that my time on this
newsgroup be pleasant and/or informative; this debate has been
neither. I'm going elsewhere.
If you want to think you're right, or that I'm incapable of
responding, I don't care. It's just not worth it. Think whatever
the hell you want.
----j7y
Eric Pawtowski
--
epaw...@vt.edu----------------------------------------------------
Technicon 13 - SF&F return to SW Virginia! March 22-24, 1996.
Guests: Author L.E. Modesitt, Games designers Lori&Corey Cole,
Artist Ruth Thompson
Vinay Pandey
: And I did not call JMS an asshole merely for posting an ad, either.
: That came later, and for different reasons, and I did not so much
: call JMS an asshole as render the opinion that he was acting like one.
: There's a difference between the two, and it's not subtle : who among
: us can honestly claim to _never_ have, at some time, acted like an asshole ?
Semantic warfare, I loves it. Dennis you just had to use the right bait
to drag another person into this mess.
So, what you are getting at is the following:
Axiom (DOC 1)
JMS IS an asshole when he forcefully defends his opinions when he feels
that he has been unfairly attacked. Axiom (DOC 1) applies only if the
target is Dennis O'Connor.
Corollary (DOC 1)
JMS is an asshole for time period delta. To obtain the proper definition
of delta contact Dennis O'Connor at (doco...@sedona.intel.com).
Now here's what I think:
Corollary (VP 2)
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, call
it a cat ... without refinements.
Next time you insult someone, don't qualify it to try to soften the blow.
Let'er rip "bindas" (That's hindi slang for "without care of consequence,
without remorse or fear". I don't know any comparable english
equivalent; It's more fun to use the perfect word).
Vinay.
Stew Barnes
This is simply not true. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your
original post stated:
In article <DMOC.95Au...@usr5.primenet.com>, Dennis O'Connor
(dm...@primenet.com) wrote:
: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
: violation of nettiquette :
: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
: 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
: This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
: not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
: product ads.
Rather than choosing to begin a rational debate as to the propriety of
this type of information being posted to the group by any person, you
chose to make the focus JMS himself, and in a way guaranteed to bring
attacks from his knee-jerk defenders.
You have accused me of lying about your definition of łabuse of
celebrity.˛ If I was wrong, please correct me with your real definition.
Contrary to your previous posts, it is apparently not łobvious˛ to
everyone.
Finally, you have claimed that:
In article <DOCONNOR.A...@sedona.intel.com>,
doco...@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor -FT-~) wrote:
> As far as I can (still) tell, JMS simply posted a press-release
> written by someone else. This is _not_ the same as _anyone_, even
> JMS, merely posting "I saw this product, I like it, I thought you
> guys would like it, here's where I got it." This latter is a personal
> testimony, the other is an _ad_.
Do you have any evidence that the post was łwritten by someone else˛ or
was a łpress release˛? JMS has stated that he wrote it, and it certainly
hasnąt appeared in any publishing or sf-related periodicals that I have
seen. If it was a professionally-done ad, it must surely have been a
rough draft, for most press-releases arenąt that long or loving.
Iąve tried to keep this non-confrontational; do you wish to engage in
rational debate?
Cordially,
Stew
Kurt Reisler
_\|/_ "Is the git with the flame-thrower gone yet?"
(o o)
--oOO-(_)-OOo-------------------------------------------------
(it's not an original, but it seemed appropriate)
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
<*> Ignore the petty dysfunctional, and the CRI fiends <*>
Dennis O'Connor -FT-~
vi...@cc.gatech.edu (Vinay Pandey) writes:
] Dennis O'Connor -FT-~ (doco...@sedona.intel.com) wrote:
] : And I did not call JMS an asshole merely for posting an ad, either.
] : That came later, and for different reasons, and I did not so much
] : call JMS an asshole as render the opinion that he was acting like one.
] : There's a difference between the two, and it's not subtle : who among
] : us can honestly claim to _never_ have, at some time, acted like an asshole ?
]
] Semantic warfare, I loves it.
Are you saying you are incapable of perceiving the difference between
"being an asshole" and "doing something assinine" ?
If you contend the two are identical, then I submit that
by that interpretation, you are an asshole.
Vinay Pandey
: "being an asshole" and "doing something assinine" ?
: If you contend the two are identical, then I submit that
: by that interpretation, you are an asshole.
Thank you!
I think I just had an urge to be called an asshole, no, that wasn't it.
I thought I was going into a semantic-warfare zone, not a name-calling
zone. Since you have no desire to engage me on my turf (and I am not
angry enough to engage you on your turf) I cheerfully bid you goodbye.
I suggest you reread article <41jvie$k...@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> that's
by me ofcourse, the one you seem to have skimmed.
Perhaps we can cross words again some other time...
Vinay.
Dennis O'Connor -FT-~
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) writes:
] doco...@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor -FT-~) wrote:
]
] *BTW, I see that you have actually refused to address _any_ of the
] *points or refutations of your drivel that were in my reply.
] *Instead, you whine about being called names. So, I assume you
] *are actually incapable of countering my arguments, and concede
] *that I am right ?
]
] I repeat myself, despite my stated intention to abandon this
] thread, only because you seem to have misunderstood my last
] posting. This _will_ be my last posting to this thread; you may
] take that however you wish. I think most people here will
] understand.
]
] So, one more time: I see no point in engaging in debate with
] someone who calls me "stupid" and "pathetic."
Probably because you _are_ stupid and pathetic.
I see no point in being polite to assholes, like you, who
use their net.telepathic powers to post defamatory proclamations
about my motives. If you could learn to only post as true
things you actually _know_ are true, you would not have
these kinds of problems.
] I see no point in engaging in debate with someone who calls my
] responses "drivel" and "asinine."
Even when it's true ?
] I see no point in subjecting myself to that sort of thing,
Then you shouldn't post messages saying "You are only doing this
out of a desire to attack JMS", asshole.
] I cannot think of any reason to argue with someone as
] volatile and antagonistic as you.
I can't think of any way you'd ever _win_ an argument with me.
That wouls tend to demotivate you.
] If you want to think you're right, or that I'm incapable of
] responding, I don't care. It's just not worth it. Think whatever
] the hell you want.
Hey, who doesn't ?