Real Personal Observations (Spoilers)
Theron Fuller
"Revelations."
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1. Sinclair Deserved Better. The character of Sinclair deserved a
better consignment to Limbo than just having his his departure being
explained away by a few throwaway lines by minor characters in the
episode, then spending an inordinate amount of the episode on Sheridan's
attempts to address his new command with his "traditional speech.".
Regardless of how strong JMS's creative juices were flowing, and how
anxious he was to start a new story arc, the Sinclair character should
have been given the respect of a "classy exit." Tasha Yar was given a
proper funeral, and the plot device of saying "goodbye" personally to
her close friends. Wesley Crusher (the twerp) was given a first-class
exit when they finally got him off the Enterprise. Sinclair deserved no
less. Even Barney the dinosaur would probably get a better send-offthan
Sinclair got. I mean, how much more would the production costs have
been to shoot a scene where Sinclair records a message cube for
Garabaldi, in the event he recovers conciousness, wishing him "Fair
Winds and Following Seas," or "Semper Fi," or whatever maudlin phrases
Space Fighter Jocks say to each other in period of history.
2. The Viewers Deserved Better. After making the burning question of
"What Happened To Sinclair At The Battle Of The Line" a central theme of
the whole first season, viewers deserved a much more thorough exposition
of the plot-line conclusion than a short enigmatic speech by a secondary
character in the series. And speaking of plot resolutions, "Sinclair Is
Special Because He Has a Minbari Soul" is the lamest plot device since
Doc McCoy carried around Spock's "Soul" in his head in the "Search for
Spock." Since there has been next ot no expositon of Minbari theology,
it's awful hard to consider the concept seriously. It's kind of like
the old running joke in the "B.C." comic strip--"Clams Got Legs!"
3. Enough Foreshadowing Already. Foreshadowing is a marevelous plot
device. But when every scene in every episode is essential to fully
understanding some previous scene in some previous episode, and must be
remembered to understand some future scene in some future episode, it
gets increasingly tiresome. Especially when the "things are not as they
appear" device is run into the ground. Shucks, given that Sheridan
spent all that time dispairing that his wife was blown up in the
"Icarus," and that he misses her something fierce, and he didn't tell
her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there any doubt whatsoever that
she'll appear "unexploded" in some future episode?
Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting action
to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying for all
participants.
Theron Fuller
--
Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> Liz Fuller
"Don't put so much reality into your life that
there's no room left for dreamin."
--Texas Bix Bender
Steven Miale
Theron Fuller <Ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The following contains some spoilers for those who have not seen
>"Revelations."
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>anxious he was to start a new story arc, the Sinclair character should
>have been given the respect of a "classy exit."
Why? Sometimes people do just 'go away' without much fanfare. I suspect there
is something else going on to explain why Sinclair left so suddenly, and
we will find this out.
>And speaking of plot resolutions, "Sinclair Is
>Special Because He Has a Minbari Soul" is the lamest plot device since
>Doc McCoy carried around Spock's "Soul" in his head in the "Search for
>Spock."
Buffalo Biscuits. There is more than meets the eye; I think they believe
Sinclair to have a *certain* Minbari soul; why else would Delenn think
he is The One? It's probably Valen, since he fought the Shadows before.
> Since there has been next ot no expositon of Minbari theology,
Except for "Soul Hunter," "Believers," "Babylon Squared," "Parliament of
Dreams," and parts of "Grail." What show have you been watching?
>Shucks, given that Sheridan
>spent all that time dispairing that his wife was blown up in the
>"Icarus," and that he misses her something fierce, and he didn't tell
>her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there any doubt whatsoever that
>she'll appear "unexploded" in some future episode?
This isn't Star Trek. People die and stay dead. The important part of that
scene is 1) character development and 2) that his wife might have been killed
by the Shadows.
>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting action
>to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying for all
>participants.
That is what he is doing.
--
Steven Miale <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/smiale.html>
KINGZILLA
(Theron Fuller) writes:
TF a verywell written post but if the show is so annoying and predictable
why bother watching said show?It seems an awful waste of time and energy.
Respectfully,Michael King
Theron Fuller
writes:
That's essentially what several of my friends who enjoy science fiction,
but aren't "into it" as much as I am, have said to me.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
--
Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> Liz Fuller
"I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from
going insane." --Waylon Jennings
Aaron Brezenski
>>"Revelations."
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>>1. Sinclair Deserved Better. The character of Sinclair deserved a
>>better consignment to Limbo than just having his his departure being
>>explained away by a few throwaway lines by minor characters in the
>>episode, then spending an inordinate amount of the episode on Sheridan's
>>attempts to address his new command with his "traditional speech.".
This assumes JMS is ambiguous mentally about Sinclair coming back. If
JMS is sure Sinclair will return, there is no "consignment to Limbo".
Besides, I think the lack of dramatic closure added to the feeling of
"wrongness" which pervaded the episode, as well as lending credence to the
idea that we're not yet done with Sinclair's story.
>> I mean, how much more would the production costs have
>>been to shoot a scene where Sinclair records a message cube for
>>Garabaldi, in the event he recovers conciousness, wishing him "Fair
>>Winds and Following Seas," or "Semper Fi," or whatever maudlin phrases
>>Space Fighter Jocks say to each other in period of history.
Several scenes have been shot by O'Hare for this season. How do you know this
isn't one of them? Garibaldi has hardly had the time to relax and check his
"answering machine". I bet Security Officers accumulate a lot of paperwork
when they're out of commission for two weeks.
>>2. The Viewers Deserved Better. After making the burning question of
>>"What Happened To Sinclair At The Battle Of The Line" a central theme of
>>the whole first season, viewers deserved a much more thorough exposition
>>of the plot-line conclusion than a short enigmatic speech by a secondary
>>character in the series.
I actually liked this. It was very Chekhovian (the playwright, not the
Koenig). To have the action occur offstage, or to have characters who are
directly involved in an event absent when said event is resolved does not
allow the audience to resolve their dramatic tension.
>>And speaking of plot resolutions, "Sinclair Is
>>Special Because He Has a Minbari Soul" is the lamest plot device since
>>Doc McCoy carried around Spock's "Soul" in his head in the "Search for
>>Spock." Since there has been next ot no expositon of Minbari theology,
>> it's awful hard to consider the concept seriously. It's kind of like
>>the old running joke in the "B.C." comic strip--"Clams Got Legs!"
I tend to agree that it is a lame reason to end a war, but I'm a devout
atheist. The use of religions to start and end wars has always seemed lame to
me. This is not to say that it is unrealistic-- it happened constantly in
Earth's history-- and that's what I kept in mind when I saw PoD.
>>3. Enough Foreshadowing Already. Foreshadowing is a marevelous plot
>>device. But when every scene in every episode is essential to fully
>>understanding some previous scene in some previous episode, and must be
>>remembered to understand some future scene in some future episode, it
>>gets increasingly tiresome. Especially when the "things are not as they
>>appear" device is run into the ground.
Again, I disagree. I love the interconnection of the episodes. It keeps this
newsgroup full and makes rewatching old episodes more fun.
>> Shucks, given that Sheridan
>>spent all that time dispairing that his wife was blown up in the
>>"Icarus," and that he misses her something fierce, and he didn't tell
>>her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there any doubt whatsoever that
>>she'll appear "unexploded" in some future episode?
I think that there is a LOT of doubt about this. I never got this impression.
I think that, if anything, Anna Sheridan will be John's motivation for
hammering on the Shadows even harder.
>>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
>>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting action
>>to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying for all
>>participants.
I tend to think of foreshadowing as lingerie-- it's certainly not *necessary*,
but it's sure nice. If you're used to it, and it's not there, you miss it.
Aaron Brezenski
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me."
Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati
"If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion."
"... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?"
Theron Fuller
<smi...@cs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>In article <3a1br2$l...@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>Theron Fuller <Ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>The following contains some spoilers for those who have not seen
>>"Revelations."
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>>Regardless of how strong JMS's creative juices were flowing, and how
>>anxious he was to start a new story arc, the Sinclair character should
>>have been given the respect of a "classy exit."
>
>Why? Sometimes people do just 'go away' without much fanfare.
Yes, and many of them are called "Viewers" from the planet "Audience."
:-)
>I suspect there is something else going on to explain why Sinclair left
so suddenly, >and we will find this out.
>
That great rumbling sound you heard after "POD" was shown in your area
was not the from the "avalanche" Ambassador Kosh said had already
started, but was the collective "Thud" of viewer expectations dropping.
By the time JMS finally gets around to explaining the "whole truth" of
why Sinclair left, many former viewers won't care, and won't be around
to see the 5 or so episodes it'll take.
>>And speaking of plot resolutions, "Sinclair Is Special Because He Has
>>a Minbari Soul" is the lamest plot device since Doc McCoy carried
>>around Spock's "Soul" in his head in the "Search for Spock."
>>
>Buffalo Biscuits. There is more than meets the eye; I think they
>believe Sinclair to have a *certain* Minbari soul; why else would
>>Delenn think he is The One? It's probably Valen, since he fought the
>>Shadows before.
There is always "more than meets the eye." Plot lines are never fully
resolved. Most viewers don't have access to this newsgroup, and
therefore don't have the advantage of examining all the possibilities as
you and I do. And even with dedicated fans like me, the game of
"Dang, I had that one figured out, and shoot, I sure missed that
one," gets real tedious after awhile.
And since JMS has stated that the Sinclair character will be in parking
orbit for most, if not all, of this season, does that mean if B5 is
cancelled (perish the thought) after Season 2 we'll never know the
"whole truth?"
>> Since there has been next ot no expositon of Minbari theology,
>Except for "Soul Hunter," "Believers," "Babylon Squared," "Parliament
>>of Dreams," and parts of "Grail." What show have you been watching?
>
Perhaps I should have written "explanation" instead of "exposition."
All we know are such peripheral snips of information like: the Gray
Council is a very powerful political force on Minbar, and is in
political opposition to some other group called the "Warrior Caste."
Members of the Gray Council believe that Minbaris have "souls" (Clams
got legs! :-) ) that enter other "Minbari" upon the death of a Minbari
individual. These "souls" are physical and tangible in nature since the
Soul Hunters put them in bottles. Souls are "sentinent," since the Soul
Hunter's bottle collection "revolted" against him.
We don't know stuff like: what is the basis of the Minbari belief in
"souls?" Is this the only religion on Minbar? What does the Minbari
"Man on the Street" believe? How have the Minbari been explaining the
"soul migration" due to shrinking Minbari population to their
believers all these years? Why would the Gray Council test an earth
person to see if he/she had a "soul?" Are there other religions on
Minbar like Jews, Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses? Do they also
believe in "Soul reincarnation?" Why is Earth multi-religious,
multi-ethnic, and multi-cultural and the Minbar (and other alien races)
so mono-religious, mono-ethnic, and mono-cultural? (If, indeed, they
really are.)
>>Shucks, given that Sheridan spent all that time dispairing that his
>>wife was blown up in the "Icarus," and that he misses her something
>>fierce, and he didn't tell her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there
>>any doubt whatsoever that she'll appear "unexploded" in some future
episode?
>
>This isn't Star Trek. People die and stay dead. The important part of
>that scene is 1) character development and 2) that his wife might have
>been killed by the Shadows.
>
It sure isn't Star Trek! The producers of Star Trek respect their major
characters, and put them in parking orbit with class and style.
We've already had an episode where we see the Centauri "Eye" carried
onto a ship, then we see that ship explode, then we see Morden give that
very same "Eye" to Londo. (Something priceless, "gone forever,"
returned intact--hmmm.)
So, we have exactly the same situation, except a really big amount of
valuable air time was spent in emphasizing to rediculous lengths that
Sheridan's wife is "gone forever" and how devastating that is to him.
Can there be any doubt whatsoever, that if the series lasts long enough,
and we're still alive to be watching it, that either 1) Morden will
sidle up to Sheridan and ask him "What do you want?" Or that Sheridan
will be in a warship of some kind and about to destroy some
strategically valuable target in order to save Life, the Universe, and
Everything when he'll suddenly discover his wife isn't really dead and
is on that target?
>>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
>>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting
>>action to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying
for all participants.
>
>That is what he is doing.
>
Yeah, but some of us viewers are old farts, and don't have the stamina
we once did. :-)
Regards,
Theron Fuller
--
Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> Liz Fuller
"I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from
going insane." --Waylon Jennings
HEIDI VOGEL
Sorry, but I just *have to* recap these two men's
description of forepl... I mean foreshadowing..... Tee
hee... It's just tooo cute.. ;)
Aaron Brezenski (ab...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: In article <3a1br2$l...@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
: Theron Fuller <Ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
: >>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting action
: >>to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying for all
: >>participants.
: I tend to think of foreshadowing as lingerie-- it's certainly not *necessary*,
: but it's sure nice. If you're used to it, and it's not there, you miss it.
*CUTE* =)
--
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@/|@@^\ \ / /
| | / Watch Out!!!
'\ |\@~ | | I might GROW on you......
/\|/ | |
' (0) / \ blo...@nevada.edu
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
Brendan K. Berver
here....
Theron Fuller (Ful...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >>]
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: >>Regardless of how strong JMS's creative juices were flowing, and how
: >>anxious he was to start a new story arc, the Sinclair character should
: >>have been given the respect of a "classy exit."
: >
: >Why? Sometimes people do just 'go away' without much fanfare.
: Yes, and many of them are called "Viewers" from the planet "Audience."
: :-)
Umm...yeah. Sure. Gotcha. Funny, none of my friends seem to feel
that way. Oh, they miss Sinclair, don't get me wrong, but he was only part
of the show, and they find Sheridar tolerable, if not spectacular. (And
the guy's only had two episodes, after all....) As far as giving Sinclair
a "classy exit" goes, I disagree. You see, I have the feeling that JMS
really wanted to _WHAM_ us in PoD, really show us that whatever this is,
this was not Star Trek, things change. Permanetly. I think he drove home
the point much better by having Sinclair simply _gone_. "What do you mean
he's gone??? GONE?? Thats it?? No last minute chewing out of the
president?? No final love scene with Delenn?? What is this show??"
_SURPRISE_! It's Babylon-5, and sometimes, at the drop of a hat, the
universe turns on it's head. I'll be honest, it scared the hell out of me.
I was as spoiled to ST as anyone else, I wanted "the good old gang" to
just go on forever. But that's not the kind of story JMS is telling. And
if I think about it, I agree with him. I'll miss Sinclair, but real change
is the price of real drama, and frankly, I think it's worth it.
: >I suspect there is something else going on to explain why Sinclair left
: so suddenly, >and we will find this out.
: That great rumbling sound you heard after "POD" was shown in your area
: was not the from the "avalanche" Ambassador Kosh said had already
: started, but was the collective "Thud" of viewer expectations dropping.
: By the time JMS finally gets around to explaining the "whole truth" of
: why Sinclair left, many former viewers won't care, and won't be around
: to see the 5 or so episodes it'll take.
Again, you seem to be in the minority. Course, I only speak for my
gang down here at NMSU, but not one person I know has jumped ship (where
would they jump too? Earth 2? *giggle*) and we recruit a new fan at every
opportunity. Viewer expectations dropping? *laugh* I'm beginning to wonder
if we're talking about the same show. Most of the people I know have all
but given up on those "other" shows, because they feel that, quite
frankly, B5 blows them away. You should see the difference between "I
missed DS9 this weekend." and "I missed B5 this weekend!!!! AAAUUUGGGHH!!
DID YOU RECORD IT??? ANSWER ME!! GIVE IT TO ME!! NOW!!! What about class?
Who cares about stupid _class_?"
: There is always "more than meets the eye." Plot lines are never fully
: resolved. Most viewers don't have access to this newsgroup, and
: therefore don't have the advantage of examining all the possibilities as
: you and I do. And even with dedicated fans like me, the game of
: "Dang, I had that one figured out, and shoot, I sure missed that
: one," gets real tedious after awhile.
Well, at least I can agree with your first statement. Kinda nice
change, isn't it? About most viewers not having access, I must agree.
However, most viewers don't seem as critical as you, Mr. Fuller. I've
certainly never heard complaints about "stars rotating" and such anywhere
but here. Face it, the people on this newsgroup are those trying to
maximize their enjoyment of the show. It is not necessary, I enjoyed the
show very much before I found my way here. (I enjoy it even more now, of
course.)
: And since JMS has stated that the Sinclair character will be in parking
: orbit for most, if not all, of this season, does that mean if B5 is
: cancelled (perish the thought) after Season 2 we'll never know the
: "whole truth?"
*raise* "Perish the though?" I suppose this is constructive
critisizm, then? If so, you might try making your complaints more of a
suggestion and less of accusation. I think you'll find you get a better
responce that way. As is, you sound as if you would _like_ the show to get
cancelled. Then we could get some _real_ SF. SeaQuest, anyone?
: >> Since there has been next ot no expositon of Minbari theology,
: Perhaps I should have written "explanation" instead of "exposition."
{snip}
: "soul migration" due to shrinking Minbari population to their
: believers all these years? Why would the Gray Council test an earth
: person to see if he/she had a "soul?" Are there other religions on
: Minbar like Jews, Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses? Do they also
: believe in "Soul reincarnation?" Why is Earth multi-religious,
: multi-ethnic, and multi-cultural and the Minbar (and other alien races)
: so mono-religious, mono-ethnic, and mono-cultural? (If, indeed, they
: really are.)
*roll* Good god, man, he only has an hour a week! (Less than that,
actually.) And he does have to do a little more than ramble on about
Minbari society. (You know, we have to slide the CGI in there _somewhere_.
*smile*) What you are looking for is simply not possible in a tv series.
It would be nice if it were, true, but it just isn't. Not enough audience
appeal. If what you're claiming is true, then B5 is already low on that as
it is. I don't understand what direction you want this show to go. You
want it to appeal more to the public, but you also want an in-depth
disection of Minbari culture. And I suppose you'll want that for the
Narns, the Centauri too! (Surely even you don't want to take apart the
Vorlons yet....) You know, I've decided that you would make an excellent
tv producer. If you can do all that, you have got it _made_. Best of luck!
: >>Shucks, given that Sheridan spent all that time dispairing that his
: >>wife was blown up in the "Icarus," and that he misses her something
: >>fierce, and he didn't tell her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there
: >>any doubt whatsoever that she'll appear "unexploded" in some future
: episode?
Ok, here you got me, because _I_ seem to be in the minority on
this one. I liked that scene. I really did. And not because I figured she
would show up in a later episode or even that she might have been killed
by the Shadows, I just liked the way Bruce did it. It worked for me in a
way it seems it didn't for most people. Watching him, I sat there thinking
about what it would be like to lose someone _I_ loved like that, and
though I'm rarely a softie, I must admit, I got a lump in my throat for
that one. *shrug* To each his own, I suppose.....
: >
: It sure isn't Star Trek! The producers of Star Trek respect their major
: characters, and put them in parking orbit with class and style.
Well, I'll grant that the park them with style. Hell, they never
park them at all! They don't even re-paint them! The just keep going and
going and going.....
It all comes down to what you want. How secure are you?
: We've already had an episode where we see the Centauri "Eye" carried
: onto a ship, then we see that ship explode, then we see Morden give that
: very same "Eye" to Londo. (Something priceless, "gone forever,"
: returned intact--hmmm.)
Good point! Not like they didn't do this in Trek. All Geordi would
have to do is re-configure the shield modulator to send out an
alpha-particle stream that would collect the molecules of the orignal,
then, using a anti-plasma converter jack, re-route the computers main
transporter logs through the tricorders' sub-directory in the off chance
that it would re-configure the eye! And, what do you know, it does!
*cheer* Of course, they've forgotten how to do this in the next episode,
but I'm sure Data can re-discover it whenever he has too. Now in B5,
recovery of the eye actually _means_ something! (Outside of the episode.)
Looked at in a one-episode time frame, it's a plot device. Looking at it
from a season perspective, it's an introduction. See? Something for
everyone.
{chomp}
: Can there be any doubt whatsoever, that if the series lasts long enough,
: and we're still alive to be watching it, that either 1) Morden will
: sidle up to Sheridan and ask him "What do you want?" Or that Sheridan
: will be in a warship of some kind and about to destroy some
: strategically valuable target in order to save Life, the Universe, and
: Everything when he'll suddenly discover his wife isn't really dead and
: is on that target?
Sure. I'll doubt it. Both of them, in fact. *shrug* It may happen,
it may not. Either way, I'll not judge it till I see it.
: >>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
: >>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting
: >>action to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying
: for all participants.
: >
: >That is what he is doing.
: >
: Yeah, but some of us viewers are old farts, and don't have the stamina
: we once did. :-)
Bummer. Don't worry, ST is still on re-runs.....8)
The Little Raven
"Yata!"
Jonathan Blum
Theron Fuller <Ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>The following contains some spoilers for those who have not seen
>>>"Revelations."
>>>Regardless of how strong JMS's creative juices were flowing, and how
>>>anxious he was to start a new story arc, the Sinclair character should
>>>have been given the respect of a "classy exit."
On this, I agree. In an ideal world, I would have liked to see Season 2
begin with the following episodes:
* one in which Garibaldi recovers from his shooting, has some heart-to-
heart moments with Sinclair about his guilt, and eventually nails his
aide with help from Talia's mind-probing. (In my version, he'd have
caught a brief glimpse of the aide while semi-conscious after he'd been
shot, without the aid of a conveient mirror.)
* one in which Delenn emerges from her chrysalis, but doesn't get to
explain everything to Sinclair because they're all too busy dealing with
the Shadow menace, from "Revelations"... this story would be coupled with
a B story, possibly involving Sinclair and Catherine.
* one which deals with the Tregatti plot, in which Delenn finally spills
the beans to Sinclair about the souls -- and as a result of these events,
Sinclair is then suddenly reassigned to Minbar and has to make an abrupt
farewell.
* then an episode to introduce "Starkiller" Sheridan.
The only problem with this ordering of the storyline is that this isn't
an ideal world we're living in.
Think about this. When a producer decides to ask a star to leave, it's
simply not practical for the star to commit to doing a few episodes of
the next season. The only time I've seen that happen is when it's the
star's decision to leave, as in the case of David Caruso or Alexandra
Vandernoot of "Highlander". In both those cases, neither was immediately
seeking other work. The main advantage to O'Hare of taking a year off
was the chance to get other work and avoid typecasting, and having him
around into the second season would cut down the time he's seen as away
from the show. Also, it would require that O'Hare make a three-week
commitment some six months in advance. This is death in the stage-acting
world, which is Michael's focus... he probably couldn't get cast in any
long-term or open-ended stage roles which could collide with the time he
was already needed at B5.
I'll agree that having Sinclair offstage during the resolution of his
character arc was unsatisfying -- but it was probably the only practical
option. I've run into the same problems on my student film project...
an actress had to withdraw from the production, so we ended up moving her
role in several scenes to another character. It wasn't as pretty as it
could have been, but it was the only practical way to finish the film.
And funnily enough, the rewrites actually opened up new possibilities
and brought an interesting new angle to the overall story.
Still, a pre-recorded message or viewscreen appearance probably wouldn't
have hurt... maybe there's one waiting for Garibaldi in the next episode
or two.
>That great rumbling sound you heard after "POD" was shown in your area
>was not the from the "avalanche" Ambassador Kosh said had already
>started, but was the collective "Thud" of viewer expectations dropping.
> By the time JMS finally gets around to explaining the "whole truth" of
>why Sinclair left, many former viewers won't care, and won't be around
>to see the 5 or so episodes it'll take.
I see no reason to jump to this conclusion -- after the last time B5
pulled the half-explanation trick, with the "revelations" of what happened
to Sinclair in "Sky", the ratings for the next new episode didn't exactly
plummet. The reason why is because, both in "Sky" and in "Points", it was
made explicit that there *was* more to the story than we had been told.
Lennier's speech to the cocooned Delenn pretty much screamed that. If the
viewers cared last time, why would they not care this time?
>And since JMS has stated that the Sinclair character will be in parking
>orbit for most, if not all, of this season, does that mean if B5 is
>cancelled (perish the thought) after Season 2 we'll never know the
>"whole truth?"
Yes and no. I bet the rest of the prophecy will be explained this season.
But I don't think we'll know the Whole, Overarcing, United Truth Of
Babylon 5 until after all five years have aired.
[re Minbari soul beliefs]
>All we know are such peripheral snips of information like: the Gray
>Council is a very powerful political force on Minbar, and is in
>political opposition to some other group called the "Warrior Caste."
>Members of the Gray Council believe that Minbaris have "souls" (Clams
>got legs! :-) ) that enter other "Minbari" upon the death of a Minbari
>individual. These "souls" are physical and tangible in nature since the
>Soul Hunters put them in bottles. Souls are "sentinent," since the Soul
>Hunter's bottle collection "revolted" against him.
>We don't know stuff like: what is the basis of the Minbari belief in
>"souls?" Is this the only religion on Minbar? What does the Minbari
>"Man on the Street" believe? How have the Minbari been explaining the
>"soul migration" due to shrinking Minbari population to their
>believers all these years? Why would the Gray Council test an earth
>person to see if he/she had a "soul?" Are there other religions on
>Minbar like Jews, Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses? Do they also
>believe in "Soul reincarnation?"
Is it possible for you to "use" any more "quotes"?
It seems to me that we know quite a bit of "what" the Minbari believe --
all the things you point out in your first paragraph. What you see us as
lacking is the "why". (Coincidentally, JMS described the first season of
B5 as being dedicated to answering "what" questions, while the second
season would delve into "why".)
And some of the questions you raise have been answered within the episodes,
in ways that don't require much thought at all. Listen to the speeches in
the Grey Council chamber in "Babylon Squared" -- Delenn contrasts their
race with the humans by saying that the Minbari consciously seek uniformity
and passionless stability, where the humans allow themselves to dissent and
be ruled by passion. They prize unity -- the Council has "never before
been divided" -- and so there probably aren't any other religions or
major theological dissentions among the "Minbari on the street". (I do
shudder to think how the Grey Council maintains this kind of unity...)
As for why the Council tested a human for a soul -- I thought the dialogue
among them in "Points" made it pretty clear that they wanted to find out
what made them tick, and Delenn seemed to believe that they fulfilled at
least one of the principles of sentient life.
>Why is Earth multi-religious,
>multi-ethnic, and multi-cultural and the Minbar (and other alien races)
>so mono-religious, mono-ethnic, and mono-cultural? (If, indeed, they
>really are.)
Aside from the Minbari -- who have been set up as this kind of contrast
to humanity -- the others are far from mono-cultural or mono-religious.
Look at the scene in "By Any Means Necessary" where G'Kar asks Na'Toth
about her religious beliefs, or "Chrysalis", where Londo and Vir aren't
even sure how many gods are in their personal pantheons.
>>>Shucks, given that Sheridan spent all that time dispairing that his
>>>wife was blown up in the "Icarus," and that he misses her something
>>>fierce, and he didn't tell her that he loved her, etc., etc, is there
>>>any doubt whatsoever that she'll appear "unexploded" in some future
>episode?
>>This isn't Star Trek. People die and stay dead. The important part of
>>that scene is 1) character development and 2) that his wife might have
>>been killed by the Shadows.
>It sure isn't Star Trek! The producers of Star Trek respect their major
>characters, and put them in parking orbit with class and style.
What happened to Sela, the Evil Blonde Romulan, then? They devoted two
episodes to introducing her (complete with backstory), and then dropped
her without a word after one more episode.
Why did Guinan disappear for years at a time without a word of explanation?
Where was the mention in TNG of O'Brien's departure? Unless you managed
to catch an episode of a completely different series -- DS9's pilot --
you had no idea why he left.
Dare I mention Dr. Kate Pulaski?
>We've already had an episode where we see the Centauri "Eye" carried
>onto a ship, then we see that ship explode, then we see Morden give that
>very same "Eye" to Londo. (Something priceless, "gone forever,"
>returned intact--hmmm.)
You're reaching, Theron... there's a big difference between retrieving
a locked box from the wreckage of a spaceship (one that didn't actually
explode, but was cut to pieces and broke apart) and reviving someone from
the dead.
>So, we have exactly the same situation, except a really big amount of
>valuable air time was spent in emphasizing to rediculous lengths that
>Sheridan's wife is "gone forever" and how devastating that is to him.
>Can there be any doubt whatsoever, that if the series lasts long enough,
>and we're still alive to be watching it, that either 1) Morden will
>sidle up to Sheridan and ask him "What do you want?" Or that Sheridan
>will be in a warship of some kind and about to destroy some
>strategically valuable target in order to save Life, the Universe, and
>Everything when he'll suddenly discover his wife isn't really dead and
>is on that target?
I see plenty of doubt.
I hang out with a bunch of seasoned (some would say jaded) TVSF viewers.
A lot of them have guessed a number of B5's plot twists well in advance...
but every once in a while, JMS has still managed to play against their
expectations. Way back in "Parliament of Dreams", when the newly-in-love
Sinclair and Sakai parted during act four, every single person I watched
the episode with was convinced she'd be toast before the end of the tag
scene. As evidence they pointed to the fact that Sinclair and Delenn were
supposedly "married" in that episode, and they figured that there would
be growing romantic tension between the two of them for the remainder of
the season. (Of course, they predicted it would never be consummated, a
la Riker and Troi.)
Imagine their expressions when they realized that (a) Catherine Sakai wasn't
killed off at the end of the episode, (b) she was back in the following
episode, and (c) the entire marriage element of the ceremony was a red
herring on JMS's part. This man _is_ capable of doing the unexpected.
True, there does seem to be a general consensus that the Anna Sheridan
plot will turn out to be important. But I've already heard four
different possibilities for how it will be important -- the two you mentioned,
the possibility that Anna will come back as another Morden to get to
Sheridan, or the possibility that she really is dead at the Shadows' hand
and Sheridan will go on a revenge kick. I don't think any of these is
obvious on its face that it's _the_ truth of what will happen next.
>>>Foreshadowing is like foreplay. It should be delightful experience
>>>doesn't go on forever; that raises expectations for more exciting
>>>action to follow; and ultimately points to a climax that is satisfying
>for all participants.
I really don't want to drag your sex life into this, Theron... but _really_
good foreplay (for a woman at least) can include a series of climaxes which
are each satisfying in themselves, but not complete, because they each leave
you wanting more. Then it leads up to a really big bang to top them all.
"Points" and "Revelations" were each climaxes of this sort. They each
resolved a story in their own right -- the plot with the Tregatti, the
Garibaldi's Aide plot, the question of what Delenn was becoming -- but
left enough dangling to point to the fact that there's an even bigger WHAM
on its way. "Points" was the more obviously self-contained of the two
episodes, but "Revelations" also wrapped up immediate plot threads as well
as engaging in foreplay for the future.
Now, if you don't appreciate the smaller climaxes because you're too
obsessed with getting the bigger one to come, I think you're expecting too
much too soon.
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
Ken Arromdee
Jonathan Blum <jb...@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>Imagine their expressions when they realized that (a) Catherine Sakai wasn't
>killed off at the end of the episode, (b) she was back in the following
>episode, and (c) the entire marriage element of the ceremony was a red
>herring on JMS's part. This man _is_ capable of doing the unexpected.
JMS's statement that the marriage element was a red herring was worded in
a way, that if not meant as ambiguous, certainly came out that way.
Now note that in Babylon Squared, Sinclair is with Delenn. Also note that
Delenn is being changed towards human, that if she becomes human she will be
a lot more suitable as a marriage partner for another human, and that a
marriage would be ideal for uniting the two races.
I don't think the marriage element is a red herring at all.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
"No boom today. Boom tomorrow, there's always a boom tomorrow." --Ivanova
David Ginger
Matt Rollefson
[Further discussion of how actors' schedules and such make such a
thing difficult.]
Beyond this, note that it's not an ideal world that the characters in
Babylon 5 are living in. I'm sure that Sinclair would have liked to
have time to say goodbye, to talk with Garibaldi, etc. He didn't. He
was snatched off the station with almost no notice, and then summarily
assigned somewhere else. Note that while thismay upset us, the
viewers, we are upset because *it didn't happen the way we wanted it
to*, not because *it wasn't believable*. If you stop to think about
Sinclair's history with the Earth Alliance government and such, it's
*very* believable that things should happen just the way they were
shown on the show.
This, IMO, is a good thing. We *should* be upset that Sinclair didn't
have the chance to say goodbye to Garibaldi and such. But this doesn't
mean that jms shouldn't have done it this way. Remember, the good guys
don't always win. Sinclair being gone so abruptly fromthe show made
everyone watching feel a little unnerved--just as Ivanova was feeling
having to juggle so many things at once. I like the way it was done.
Rollie