Chysalis. >>YAWN<<
Dianne Hackborn
Chrysalis spoilers...
| He did make some good points. I also feel that the conversations are
| stilted and wooden. An example would be Sinclair's marriage scene,
| although others have commented how much they enjoyed that scene, I
| was pained by it. It seemed a very uncomforatable scene. Others, though,
| might have a better grasp of the Sinclair character than I.
It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
hard to see?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "The language and concepts contained herein are
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu guaranteed not to cause eternal torment in the
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne place where the guy with the horns and pointed
Oregon State University stick conducts his business." -- Frank Zappa
Michael Heser
: sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
: Chrysalis spoilers...
:
Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
----...@omni.voicenet.com----
Dianne Hackborn
| Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
| : sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
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| : Chrysalis spoilers...
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| : | He did make some good points. I also feel that the conversations are
| : | stilted and wooden. An example would be Sinclair's marriage scene,
| : | although others have commented how much they enjoyed that scene, I
| : | was pained by it. It seemed a very uncomforatable scene. Others, though,
| : | might have a better grasp of the Sinclair character than I.
|
| : It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
| : Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
| : hard to see?
|
| enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
| Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh... I posted a thing about this in another thread, but...
Have you seen "Parliament of Dreams" where they first get back together?
And watch him in The Gathering with what's-her-name.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "The person who stands up and says, ``This is
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu stupid,'' either is asked to `behave' or, worse,
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know!
Oregon State University Isn't it terrific!''" -- Frank Zappa
Mark Patrick Rice
I really thought that scene was some of the _best_ acting we've
seen out of Sinclair (I forget the actor's name). I only wish
he was that good all the time (I often find that I have to
convince myself that his uptight, wooden delivery is part of
his character, and not just a lack of acting ability). Maybe he
decided to put his all into it since it's basically his last
episode.
The reason Sinclair is uncomfortable is because he doesn't
like dealing with his emotions, and in proposing marriage he's
not only admitting to some pretty deep feelings, he's also
making himself _very_ vulnerable and setting himself up for
major rejection.
>
> ----...@omni.voicenet.com----
>
__
--Mark (mp...@virignia.edu)
--.Sig!? We don' need no stinking .sig!
Dianne Hackborn
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| I really thought that scene was some of the _best_ acting we've
| seen out of Sinclair (I forget the actor's name). I only wish
| he was that good all the time (I often find that I have to
| convince myself that his uptight, wooden delivery is part of
| his character, and not just a lack of acting ability). Maybe he
| decided to put his all into it since it's basically his last
| episode.
It was the 12th episode filmed. Another theory bites the dust. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Gail has said in interviews that one of the
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu things that makes our relationship work is
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne the fact that we hardly ever get to talk to
Oregon State University each other." -- Frank Zappa
James HG Redekop
Michael Heser <sc...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
>: Chrysalis spoilers...
>: It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
>: Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
>: hard to see?
>Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
>enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
>Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
I thought it was pretty obvious, myself... He could have started off with,
"As you know, I'm not very good at expressing my feelings, but...", but then
that would've been jumped on as more cliched writing...
It seemed to me to be a very good presentation of someone who, while he *does*
case deeply, doesn't know how to express that.
--
James H.G. Redekop +- Don't bother, there isn't a server yet!
tz...@publix.empath.on.ca |
tz...@csd.uwo.ca V
http://mccarthy.csd.uwo.ca/csd/u6/thesis/tzoq/www/home.html
The_Doge
James HG Redekop <tz...@csd.uwo.ca> wrote:
>In article <38uqgs$p...@nova.voicenet.com>,
>Michael Heser <sc...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>>Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
>>: Chrysalis spoilers...
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>>: It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
>>: Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
>>: hard to see?
>
>>Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
>>enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
>>Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
>
> I thought it was pretty obvious, myself... He could have started off with,
> "As you know, I'm not very good at expressing my feelings, but...", but then
> that would've been jumped on as more cliched writing...
>
> It seemed to me to be a very good presentation of someone who, while he *does*
> case deeply, doesn't know how to express that.
>
obviously intended to be.
I am, however, continually amazed by the number of viewers who
seem unable to distinguish between an actor and his/her character. I'm
beginning to suspect that this is the result of an environment in which
most of the "actors" on TeeVee and film are not really actors so much as
"personalities" playing characters who are not significantly different from
from themselves. Most of the big-name film and TeeVee stars are of this type.
They're charismatic but have no range as actors.
With this as a baseline, it's apparently easy to assume that
Sinclair's formal, unbending manner is an indication of O'Hare's
awkwardness rather than a facet of the former's character. After watching
the entire first season of B5 it's quite obvious to me that it's the
character and not the actor that we're seeing; but then, my own background
is more stage- than film/TeeVee-oriented, so maybe I'm not the best test
case.
IMHO, the people who are slamming the cast of B5 for "bad acting"
have probably never actually seen *good* acting. Or, rather, they're
mistaking flashy histrionics for "good acting". Alas, this seems to by
typical of a majority of Americans outside the (depressingly small) circle
of regular theatre-goers.
--
*******************************************************************************
* The_Doge of South St. Louis | clav...@nyx.cs.du.edu *
* Dobbs-Approved Media Conspirator(tm)|"One Step Beyond"-Sundays 3 pm, 88.1 FM*
*******************************************************************************
J.M.Egolf
>Michael Heser <sc...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>>Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
>>: Chrysalis spoilers...
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Consider yourself warned!
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>>: It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
>>: Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
>>: hard to see?
>
> *does* case deeply, doesn't know how to express that.
Thank you!
First of all, the acting is of a different style on _B5_ than we've seen
on SF shows for a while. It's not all-out-in-the-open-bulkhead-chewing.
I'm not saying one is better than the other--I like both. But they're
_different_. It's not fair to judge one by the criteria of the other.
And O'Hare is the most subtle of them all. With this guy you can't just
have the TV on while you're doing something else. You have to WATCH him.
(But we all know JMS likes subtle!)
Secondly, Sinclair is a military man, and a military _brat_, with all that
involves (stiff-upper-lip upbringing, moving from post to post, etc.) Unless
the military has changed a _lot_, emotionalism is still frowned on.
Thirdly, Sinclair was a POW of the Mimbari and he's been tortured. The worst
part of torture is not the pain, it's the shame of losing control of yourself
to the torturers. They have the power to make you feel or do things you don't
want to. After this, a person simply isn't as open and trusting as they were
before. Sinclair probably has posttraumatic stress disorder, and he certainly
has survivor's guilt (I can't remember the episode, but somewhere along the
line Garabaldi scolds him for taking unecessary risks).
Fourthly (if anybody is still reading this:->) Sinclair is a very _sensitive_
guy. Even after all he's been through, he hasn't been broken completely.
(Witness his professions of friendship to Garabaldi and Ivanova, his
reaction to the destruction of B4, etc.) We know he's had at least one
painful love relationship: in "VitWI," he tells Garabaldi that he (Sinclair)
knows how he (Garabalidi) feels about Lisa by saying "I've been there."
While Catherine's independence may be what he loves about her the most
(thank you, God! thank you, JMS!) loving her must sometimes be rather like
loving a porcupine. We know they fight. By asking her to marry him, he's
asking her to give up some of that independence. She may very well turn
him down. By asking her in an off-hand way, he can pretend he's not hurt
if she says no. It also makes it easier for her to _say_ no, without feeling
guilty. (Always thoughtful, that's our Jeff!)
Etc. Etc. and so forth.
And if anybody wants to decry me as a "worshipper of MOH," they are welcome
to do so!
--
J.M.Egolf
jeg...@mcs.com
"Religion is the ultimate sf (speculative "filosophy".)
Jonathan Gapen
> Secondly, Sinclair is a military man, and a military _brat_, with all that
> involves (stiff-upper-lip upbringing, moving from post to post, etc.) Unless
> the military has changed a _lot_, emotionalism is still frowned on.
I always remember that scene in "And the Sky Full of Stars." The Knight in
the cybernet simulation says to him, "You always return HERE." and Sinclair
is inside a cage-like set of bars, very rigid and straight.
--
Jonathan Gapen (jag...@students.wisc.edu)
"It's the Machine's world, don't tell me I ain't got no soul.
When the machines take over, it ain't no place for rock 'n roll."
Dianne Hackborn
| In article <39149n$f...@Venus.mcs.com> jeg...@MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf) writes:
| > Secondly, Sinclair is a military man, and a military _brat_, with all that
| > involves (stiff-upper-lip upbringing, moving from post to post, etc.) Unless
| > the military has changed a _lot_, emotionalism is still frowned on.
|
| I always remember that scene in "And the Sky Full of Stars." The Knight in
| the cybernet simulation says to him, "You always return HERE." and Sinclair
| is inside a cage-like set of bars, very rigid and straight.
*clap* *clap* *clap* to both of you.
These two posts are definitely worth saving for the next time this thead
comes up. [Though since Sinclair will be gone for the however long, maybe
it won't come up. :/]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "I figure the odds be fifty-fifty
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu I just might have some thing to say."
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
Oregon State University -- Frank Zappa
J.M.Egolf
Dianne Hackborn <hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU> wrote:
>jag...@students.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen) wrote thusly:
>| In article <39149n$f...@Venus.mcs.com> jeg...@MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf) writes:
>| > Secondly, Sinclair is a military man, and a military _brat_, with all that
>|
>| I always remember that scene in "And the Sky Full of Stars." The Knight in
>| the cybernet simulation says to him, "You always return HERE." and Sinclair
>| is inside a cage-like set of bars, very rigid and straight.
>
>*clap* *clap* *clap* to both of you.
...and I'd like to thank the Academy [pun intended]...
I neglected to speculate on how much of Sinclair's personality is a result
of his being reared as a R.Catholic. Mostly I didn't want to start anyone
on an-off topic tirade, pro or con, but I will say this: believing both that
you are responsible for "everything" as an active partner in an on-going
divine creation, and that you can be forgiven anything can give you a
sense of "compulsive responsibility" combined with a weird kind of freedom.
(I'm speaking personally here: other R.C. may have experienced this
differently.) And, yes, I know Sinclair isn't "practicing" any more, but
you don't completely lose that worldview just because you stop going to
Mass, etc.
ken...@kennedy.bridgewater.ne.hcc.com
>: Chrysalis spoilers...
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>Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
>enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
>Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
If you don't think there was serious cause for him to fear that
A) she might turn him down, and
B) as a result of his proposal and her declining, their relationship
would end up going south,
then you haven't been paying much attention. _I_ wasn't at all sure
that she was going to accept....
Heck, I felt awkward making the "official" proposal to my wife, and
I knew perfectly well that we both had seen it coming for over a year.
John W. Kennedy - Hoechst Celanese - Team OS/2 - (The OS/2 Hobbit) - TIPA
IBMMAIL: USAHC29S IBMLink: NAAO3IY "Compact is becoming contract;
CompuServe: 75136,1413 Prodigy: MTMV04A Man only earns and pays."
Internet: ken...@kennedy.bridgewater.ne.hcc.com -- Charles Williams
X.400: US Telemail Hoechst
Gregory snooze Blake
>: sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
>
>enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
>Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
Actually, after watching the series this seems fairly evident to me. Sinclair
doesn't tend to do real well when it comes to talking about personal
things with anyone.
snooze
--
------------------------------------PLUR---------------------------------------
Gregory Blake - snooze@DeepSeas,TooMUSH]I[,fantasia,etc - sno...@mis.nu.edu
619-563-2595<w> | 619-528-4531<h> | home: 4783 Utah St, San Diego 92116
"Understanding is a three edged sword."
David C. Navas
>Why didn't he explain that?
Because then the scene wouldn't have worked.
>The scene came off looking like he really didn't enjoy what he was doing...
Sounds roughly accurate.
>Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
Sorry, whoever is running this AI experiment, you just failed the Turing test.
[kidding]
Assuming this is a real question, human beings find difficult things
uncomfortable to do. Asking a question whose answer is unknown *and* that
will affect the majority of the rest of your life, *is* difficult.
--
David Navas ja...@netcom.com
P11 -- your "friend" dna...@us.oracle.com
Minbari: "bonehead" will never mean the same thing again.
S
wei...@bnlux1.bnl.gov writes:
>One of the biggest cliche's in TV is the "Dying Informant", wherein the
>informant is mortally wounded, but manages to just reach our hero and
>impart valuable information, just before expiring. We've seen this
>already this year in "Survivors" and now we get to see it twice in one
>episode. First, the guy in the beginning of the episode just makes it to
>Garabaldi and says "They're going to kill him" and conveniently dies.
>Then, later in the episode, Garabaldi manages to crawl on his hands and
>knees to Sinclair, tells him they are going to kill the Pres, and then
>passes out. And where did these bad guys go to school? Twice in one day
>they try to kill somebody and don't make sure the job is done right.
>When bad guys want somebody dead, they don't shoot / stab them once and
>then walk away assuming they are dead. Real bad guys finnish the job
>with a round or two in the back of the head.
NOOOOO! The real cliche is to have them SAVE the president just at the last
second. They were leading up to a save the day scenario, and then it all blew
up. A nice change of pace, I thought.
>Oh yeah, and what about that rocket scientist Mike "Wesley" Garabaldi?
>Picks up some random equipment and is able to, in under a minute,
>figure out what it is, what channel it's set for, that it's set to
>broadcast static and that it's going to be used in an attempt to kill
>the president. Good job Mike! Now why didn't you have the brains to tell
>the Commander to warn Earth Force One instead of risking the life of the
>president while you run to see him face to face.
THE RADIO HAD CONTROLS. THE OTHER GUY READ THE FREQUENCY OFF IT. IT IS A PART
OF THE B5 UNIVERSE, JUST LIKE GARABALDI. HE HAS SEEN SIMILAR DEVICES. HE IS A
SECURITY OFFICER. HE KNOWS SOME STUFF. Wesley would have opened it up,
converted it to an interplanetary transporter, and sent himself into Earth
Force 1 and saved the day.
If you had been paying attention the whole season, you would know that the
President had some powerful factions against him, and what other reason would
there be to jam the official frequency used by Earth Force 1. A prank?
As for his not wanting to broadcast it over an open channel, that was a
judgement call, and it turned out to be wrong. The bad guys had fancy
transmitters, why not receivers. If found out, who knows what they would blow
as a diversion. If you want perfect infallable characters, there is another
show for you to watch. ;-)
>Oh, and the VP can't travel with the Prez 'cause he's not feeling well?
>Beside being more than a little suspicious, it's silly. The presdent and
>the VP NEVER travel together. This is a pretty common practice in most
>nations. Even Prince Charles and his sons don't travel together, so that
>England won't be left without an heir, and the monarchy doesn't even do
>anything nowadays except get caught with their pants down.
Gee. That has no ghost of a chance of changing in 250 years. Maybe the
security teams got over confident? Cost cutting measure?
And yes, it was suspicious. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE!
>Cathy and Jeff are getting married. That's nice, they're a cute couple.
>Jeff asks Mike to be his best man, well that makes sense. But Ivanova as
>maid of honor? As my wife said "Well Susan, I don't really know you, but
>since you are the only creature with ovaries on this station that I even
>have a passing aquaintance with, I'd like you to be maid-of-honor".
So what's the problem? Ivanova is also a close friend of Sinclair. She was a
logical choice. This is really extreme nit-picking.Who else was she going to
pick. Na-Toth? (Actually, that would have been a hoot.)
>Of course, it wasn't all rain and no sunshine. As usual, G'Kar and Londo
>carry the show. The shadowmen were certainly creepy and the effects,
>especially the destruction of the Narn outpost were great. One wonders
>whether Joe has multiple personalities. When he writes for the human
>characters, the plots are cliche and the dialogue is wooden and flat.
>When he writes for the alien characters the plots are interesting, the
>dialogue is engageing and the ideas hold my interest.
>
>My vote is to get rid of all the humans and rename "Babylon-5" to "The
>Londo and G'Kar Show".
Spin-off! Hey, if Space Ghost can host a talk show....
G'Kar: So, Mrs. Smith, after you found you husband making love to your
daughter's lesbian lover/sister, why did you just not bury your teeth into his
throat and rip it out?
Londo: Ignore him, Mrs. Smith. His race is too primitive to enjoy the subtle
pleasures of inbreeding as we of the royal houses of the Centauri are able.
>Oh well, season two starts next week. I have a few days to be
>optimistic.
Whatever. Cheer up.
sparky
Tim Morley
| Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
| : sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
|
| : Chrysalis spoilers...
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| : | He did make some good points. I also feel that the conversations are
| : | stilted and wooden. An example would be Sinclair's marriage scene,
| : | although others have commented how much they enjoyed that scene, I
| : | was pained by it. It seemed a very uncomforatable scene. Others, though,
| : | might have a better grasp of the Sinclair character than I.
|
| : It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
| : Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
| : hard to see?
|
| Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
| enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
| Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
AARRGGH!! Have you never of people being shy???? Some people (In fact
provbably quite a lot) have great difficulty saying 'personal' things
like that even to the person they want to marry. And asking someone to
marry you iseven more difficult as you have the horrible doubt that
they might say no, and completely ruin your
day(/month/year/decade/etc). Sinclair is a very good represenation of
someone who has never really be able to 'talk' openly to people, he is
always keeping everything in, and he has to _REALLY_ know someone well
before he can talk to them about what he is thinking ( Such as
Garabaldi and the events on the Line).
Tim
JOHN HUEY
> Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
> : sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
>
> : Chrysalis spoilers...
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> :
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> : | He did make some good points. I also feel that the conversations are
> : | stilted and wooden. An example would be Sinclair's marriage scene,
> : | although others have commented how much they enjoyed that scene, I
> : | was pained by it. It seemed a very uncomforatable scene. Others, though,
> : | might have a better grasp of the Sinclair character than I.
>
> : It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
> : Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
> : hard to see?
>
> Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
> enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
> Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
>
> ----...@omni.voicenet.com----
I thought that this scene worked right up to the point when Catherine said
"Yes." Sinclair was uncomfortable and awkward and uncertain during the
proposal -- ok. I can buy that -- however, he should have display tremendous
relief/joy with an affirmative answer. His forced nonchalant turning his
back to do something trivial was just not natural. However, getting someone
who is tolerant of this bizarre behavior, like Ms. Sakai, to actually
consent to marry you makes Sinclair one very lucky man. :)
John D. Huey
izq...@indyvax.iupui.edu
"Who hopes Catherine S. returns even if Sinclair is on Minbar."
>
Dianne Hackborn
nsa...@unlinfo.unl.edu (nancy sauer) wrote thusly:
| Ok, chalk me up as unnatural. I find it very difficult to talk
| about important personal issues, even with people I love and trust, and
| when I DO manage to say what I want to say my first, over-riding
| impulse is to switch the conversation over to something trivial. I
| think of it as a fear/avoidance reaction: I got close enough to the
| scary thing to do what I wanted to do, and now it's time to get the
| hell out of here.
Or make a joke. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Do your part.
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu Pull your weight.
Oregon State University Don't be a flake." -- Frank Zappa
//www.cs.orst.edu/~hackbod/
nancy sauer
: I neglected to speculate on how much of Sinclair's personality is a result
: of his being reared as a R.Catholic. Mostly I didn't want to start anyone
: on an-off topic tirade, pro or con, but I will say this: believing both that
: you are responsible for "everything" as an active partner in an on-going
: divine creation, and that you can be forgiven anything can give you a
: sense of "compulsive responsibility" combined with a weird kind of freedom.
: (I'm speaking personally here: other R.C. may have experienced this
: differently.) And, yes, I know Sinclair isn't "practicing" any more, but
: you don't completely lose that worldview just because you stop going to
: Mass, etc.
First off, I want to raise the very minor quibble that (so far as I
know) we don't know for sure that Sinclair is a R. Catholic. We know
he was taught by Jesuits, but I don't think there is anything to
prevent a non-Catholic from enrolling in a Catholic school. Does
anyone know the statistics for say, Notre Dame? Even at the grade
school level, it is not unknown for non-Catholic parents to send their
children to a parochial school because they believe that the
*educational* services are superior to the public schools.
I say this is a very minor point, because even if Sinclair's only
connection to Holy Mother Church was his education he still would have
picked up a LOT of the RC worldview. And I do agree that there is a
worldview, and I think that J.M. Egolf has done a good job in trying to
characterize it. You can add me to the list of the "compulsively
responsible but weirdly free".
Just to be provacative, I would like now to point out that,
accepting for arguement's sake that Sinclair was raised Catholic, we
can't say that he is _not_ a practicing Catholic _now_. We have no
evidence that he attends Mass, but we also have no evidence that there
is a priest on B5 to say one. Participation in the Sacrement of the
Eucharist is terribly, terribly vital, but there's a lot more to being
Catholic than simply attending Mass.
BUT WHAT ABOUT CATHERINE????(and whatsherface in the pilot) you ask.
Okay, so he's a sinner. The Church is full of sinners. I'll bet you
a rosary that Sinclair has yet to commit a sin that St. Augustine
didn't do first.
Nancy M. Sauer
Disciple of Bread Do:
The Way of the Flour Warrior
"I dislike the floating loaf method as it leads to a floating loaf. With
your spirit settled and your mind calm, knead with firmness but without haste.
Develop the inner vision which allows one to perceive the gluten."
nancy sauer
: In article <38uqgs$p...@nova.voicenet.com>, sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) writes:
: > Dianne Hackborn (hac...@python.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote:
: > : sc...@voicenet.com (Michael Heser) wrote thusly:
: >
: > : Chrysalis spoilers...
: >
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : It was >>supposed<< to be uncomfortable! This is -not- the kind of thing
: > : Sinclair likes, and he was definitely not enjoying it. Was this really so
: > : hard to see?
: >
: <snip sig.>
: > Why didn't he explain that? The scene came off looking like he really didn't
: > enjoy what he was doing, and remember he was proposing mariage in this scene.
: > Why would he not enjoy proposing to the woman he loves?
: >
: > ----...@omni.voicenet.com----
: I thought that this scene worked right up to the point when Catherine said
: "Yes." Sinclair was uncomfortable and awkward and uncertain during the
: proposal -- ok. I can buy that -- however, he should have display tremendous
: relief/joy with an affirmative answer. His forced nonchalant turning his
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: back to do something trivial was just not natural.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ok, chalk me up as unnatural. I find it very difficult to talk
about important personal issues, even with people I love and trust, and
when I DO manage to say what I want to say my first, over-riding
impulse is to switch the conversation over to something trivial. I
think of it as a fear/avoidance reaction: I got close enough to the
scary thing to do what I wanted to do, and now it's time to get the
hell out of here.
J.M.Egolf
nancy sauer <nsa...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>J.M.Egolf (jeg...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>
>: I neglected to speculate on how much of Sinclair's personality is a result
>: isn't practicing anymore, but you don't completely lose that worldview
>
> First off, I want to raise the very minor quibble that (so far as I
>know) we don't know for sure that Sinclair is a R. Catholic. We know
>he was taught by Jesuits, but I don't think there is anything to
Too true. But I'm not sure you'd call it being "trained" by Jesuits if
you weren't more than just a non-Catholic attending a Catholic school.
There's this rumor going around that Sinclair was actually a Jesuit
novice (preparing for the priesthood). That business in VitW about dawn
Mass and an hour of meditation certainly doesn't sound like anything the
Jessies would put a non-RC through, or even just a regular boarding student.
I've posted to JMS for clarification, but he's being Kosh-like on this one.
> Just to be provacative, I would like now to point out that,
>accepting for arguement's sake that Sinclair was raised Catholic, we
>can't say that he is _not_ a practicing Catholic _now_. We have no
>evidence that he attends Mass, but we also have no evidence that there
>is a priest on B5 to say one. Participation in the Sacrement of the
>Eucharist is terribly, terribly vital, but there's a lot more to being
>Catholic than simply attending Mass.
Again, too true. (I did say "Mass, etc.") I think it's his flippancy
about his "training" that made me assume he thinks of himself as no
longer practicing.
> BUT WHAT ABOUT CATHERINE????(and whatsherface in the pilot) you ask.
I work in a Catholic college's library, and happened the other day to
pick up a book, directed at priests, on preparing people for
marriage. The convolutions they went into to get around condemning the
preparing couple for "living in sin" were amusing. An awful lot of
people who consider themselves Catholics live together without being
married (and use contraceptives, too, so "nanny nanny poo poo" on
those people who claim Catherine's surprise is that she's PG! :> )
>Okay, so he's a sinner. The Church is full of sinners. I'll bet you
>a rosary that Sinclair has yet to commit a sin that St. Augustine
>didn't do first.
Lady, from what little I know of Auggie, Sinclair, Garabaldi, Ivanona,
_and_ Taila Winters haven't committed all the sins Auggie did!
To the tune of _Old Time Religion_ (two verses)
"Let us sing of St. Augustin [British pronounciation]
Sex and liquor were his lusts in
And he never did get busted
Tho' his mother cried and prayed
'Til one day her prayers were heard
And Augustin, he was cured --
No more said, "Dear God, make me pure
But not right now, I'm getting laid!"
Christian L. Mogensen
>Okay, so he's a sinner. The Church is full of sinners. I'll bet you
>a rosary that Sinclair has yet to commit a sin that St. Augustine
>didn't do first.
Is killing a Minbari a sin?
Minbari have souls, so presumably, yes.
St. Augustine presumably did not kill any Minbari.
:->
BTW: I loved Ivanova's "half a prayer" line.
Christian "Maybe I'm agnostic, then again..."
Bureau of Policy and Programs
who have known each other for 15 years -- off and on. Jeff finally feels
that they have it together enough to even ask Catherine about marriage.
Here's a guy who can stare down aliens ready to blow up the station, but
he can't easily express how he feels. When he turned his back to Catherine
after her acceptance, I thought it was to cover the emotions he was feeling.
I could see him having trouble with even simple conversation, his voice
quivering a little. That, to me, was worth seeing.
Sandy
nancy sauer
: There's this rumor going around that Sinclair was actually a Jesuit
: novice (preparing for the priesthood). That business in VitW about dawn
^^^^^
: Mass and an hour of meditation certainly doesn't sound like anything the
: Jessies would put a non-RC through, or even just a regular boarding student.
Aaaaaugh! I've seen this episode twice and not seen this! When was
it? What have I missed?
But you have a point, a non-RC is not going to be required to go to
Mass. It might be a normal thing for RC students if the school
considers "Advanced Contemplation" part of the curriculum. But you
know, Sinclair seems like the contemplative type to me. I think he
might have tried the meditation thing on his own, even if it weren't
required. He certainly seems to enjoy pondering literature.
*******************
: >Okay, so he's a sinner. The Church is full of sinners. I'll bet you
: >a rosary that Sinclair has yet to commit a sin that St. Augustine
: >didn't do first.
: Lady, from what little I know of Auggie, Sinclair, Garabaldi, Ivanona,
: _and_ Taila Winters haven't committed all the sins Auggie did!
: [greatly amusing ditty snipped]
<giggle> Well, I didn't want to overstate my case. You know, I
have a friend who is absolutely outraged that the Catholic Church
considers Augustine a saint. She once went on quite a spree, listing
all the mistresses and such that he had. I think it's a Protestant
thing: you know, God only loves the Elect.
J.M.Egolf
nancy sauer <nsa...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>J.M.Egolf (jeg...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>
>: There's this rumor going around that Sinclair was actually a Jesuit
>: novice (preparing for the priesthood). That business in VitW about dawn
> ^^^^^
>: Mass and an hour of meditation certainly doesn't sound like anything the
>: Jessies would put a non-RC through, or even just a regular boarding student.
>
> Aaaaaugh! I've seen this episode twice and not seen this! When was
>it? What have I missed?
It's in the practical joke Sinclair and Garibaldi play on Invonova
in the opening scene. I'm pretty sure it was VinW I, because she talks
about C&C getting her up early because C&C is picking up unusual
tachyon (sp?) emmissions.
>have a friend who is absolutely outraged that the Catholic Church
>considers Augustine a saint. She once went on quite a spree, listing
>all the mistresses and such that he had. I think it's a Protestant
>thing: you know, God only loves the Elect.
(Are we going to need to take this to "alt.religion.flame"? :) I hope
not!)
...if none of us sinned, Christ wouldn't have needed to save us...
"Oh, happy fault, oh necessary sin of Adam,
that won for for us so great a Savior"
Not that I understand all this stuff, mind you; I'm just quoting.
Joe Pfeiffer
: Is killing a Minbari a sin?
: Minbari have souls, so presumably, yes.
: St. Augustine presumably did not kill any Minbari.
Hmmm. Actually, this brings up an interesting point. I would
agree that murdering a Minbari (or a Narn, etc.) would as sinful a murdering
a human being, and so far as I know, St. Augustine never murdered
anyone.
If and when we ever encounter an alien race, this will be a very
interesting question to ponder...
HOWEVER, does killing in a time of war count as murder? I am not up
on the exact wording on the "just war" teachings, but I think that
defending humanity from an enemy who's aim is to completely
exterminate it probably qualifies. Of course, there are those who
reject the notion of "just war".
Regardless, the Church does accept it. It would be hard to consider
these circumstances as sinful.
********
: BTW: I loved Ivanova's "half a prayer" line.
YES!
(Look doc, get a clue. It's not going to do Garibaldi any harm and
it will make her feel better.)
Ah, but see how nicely it shows Franklin's arrogance level? Praying
to God is useless since the Surgeon does all that can be done, but you
go ahead and do it for believers...
-Joe.
Aaron Brezenski
>In article <39lm4p$d...@crcnis1.unl.edu>,
>nancy sauer <nsa...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>> Aaaaaugh! I've seen this episode twice and not seen this! When was
>>it? What have I missed?
>
>It's in the practical joke Sinclair and Garibaldi play on Invonova
>in the opening scene. I'm pretty sure it was VinW I, because she talks
>about C&C getting her up early because C&C is picking up unusual
>tachyon (sp?) emmissions.
"B-Squared is the episode you're talking about.
Aaron Brezenski
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me."
Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati
"If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion."
"... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?"
BILL...@delphi.com
Quoting nsauer from a message in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
> ********
> : BTW: I loved Ivanova's "half a prayer" line.
> YES!
> (Look doc, get a clue. It's not going to do Garibaldi any harm and
> it will make her feel better.)
> Nancy M. Sauer
WELL -
If the Doc is right, and there is no God, then Ivanova just wasted
a moment or three of HER time. No harm done.
If Ivanova is right - then it MIGHT help.
Worst case is if God doesn't like Ivanova and is petty enough to
act against her prayers - but I don't think that fits in with Doc's
view of the universe.
WEGMAN
Marianne E. Bonyhady
: Quoting nsauer from a message in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
: > ********
: > : BTW: I loved Ivanova's "half a prayer" line.
: > YES!
: > (Look doc, get a clue. It's not going to do Garibaldi any harm and
: > it will make her feel better.)
: > Nancy M. Sauer
: WELL -
: If the Doc is right, and there is no God, then Ivanova just wasted
: a moment or three of HER time. No harm done.
: If Ivanova is right - then it MIGHT help.
<snip>
: WEGMAN
Actually, when the doctor said "But he's agnostic", I was waiting for
Ivanova to pin him with a steely gaze and say, "But *I'm* not."
What, you think that God doesn't care about agnostics? :-)
--
Marianne
J.M.Egolf
Marianne E. Bonyhady <m...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> wrote:
>Actually, [I was waiting for]
>Ivanova to pin him with a steely gaze and say, "But *I'm* not."
>
>What, you think that God doesn't care about agnostics? :-)
"I don't believe in God."
"That doesn't mean that God doesn't believe in you."
nancy sauer
Oh cool, a _theology_ discussion!
Christian L. Mogensen (mog...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: In article <39gna5$l...@crcnis1.unl.edu>,
: nancy sauer <nsa...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
: > BUT WHAT ABOUT CATHERINE????(and whatsherface in the pilot) you ask.
: >Okay, so he's a sinner. The Church is full of sinners. I'll bet you
: >a rosary that Sinclair has yet to commit a sin that St. Augustine
: >didn't do first.
: Is killing a Minbari a sin?
: Minbari have souls, so presumably, yes.
: St. Augustine presumably did not kill any Minbari.
Hmmm. Actually, this brings up an interesting point. I would
agree that murdering a Minbari (or a Narn, etc.) would as sinful a murdering
a human being, and so far as I know, St. Augustine never murdered
anyone.
HOWEVER, does killing in a time of war count as murder? I am not up
on the exact wording on the "just war" teachings, but I think that
defending humanity from an enemy who's aim is to completely
exterminate it probably qualifies. Of course, there are those who
reject the notion of "just war".
********
: BTW: I loved Ivanova's "half a prayer" line.
YES!
(Look doc, get a clue. It's not going to do Garibaldi any harm and
it will make her feel better.)
Nancy M. Sauer
BILL...@delphi.com
Quoting meb from a message in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
> Actually, when the doctor said "But he's agnostic", I was waiting for
> Ivanova to pin him with a steely gaze and say, "But *I'm* not."
> What, you think that God doesn't care about agnostics? :-)
> --
> Marianne
And it would have been in character for Susan too.
WEGMAN
Kevin A. B. Munoz
Considering the situation, "But =I'm= not" would not have
seemed appropriate.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Munoz - "The FOO, the Proud, the FOO" - FOO: FOO Of Oberlin
kmu...@cs.oberlin.edu skm...@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
http://consult2.cc.oberlin.edu/consultants/kevin/pillars.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Free Information --- Information Freely"
Marianne E. Bonyhady
[in reference to Ivanova's response to being reminded that Garibaldi
is agnostic:]
: Considering the situation, "But =I'm= not" would not have
: seemed appropriate.
By "situtation", I assume you mean the fact that it is Garibaldi, the
agnostic, who's in the coma?
Ah, but that's exactly the point I was trying to make: that it would
seem that the faith of the person who is _doing_ the praying is more
significant than the faith, or lack thereof, of the one being
prayed _for_.
So, while I could see Garibaldi offering "half a prayer", I would
have expected Ivanova to be relying more on her _own_ faith when
she was praying.
BTW, this was never intended as a complaint about the scene as it
was written. It's simply a thought that came to mind as I was
watching it.
-- Marianne