Why I Hate Babylon 5
Lora Crouse
season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
get into the show.
In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
Brian Frost
wrote:
.
.
.
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
There's only one person that really knows for sure and he's not
talking!
Later,
Brian
Neal Klein
>
> I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
> season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
> get into the show.
>
> In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
> I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
> actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
> might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>
> If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
> emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
> in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
Lora, the payoff is more than the story, but most of us viewers are too
conditioned by television and the sci-fi genre to see that. I suggest
you look at the themes in each episode, realize JMS is writing an epic,
and note the facets of humanity each character represents. Babylon 5 is
about choice, responsibility, transcendence and other good stuff. :)
Remember that JMS said that after he tells B5, he will have said all he
wants to say on television. He's got far more to say than just a
two-dimensional story. Don't be so sure about what is going to happen.
You might be totally surprised.
--
----------------------------------
Neal Klein
"What's this? A switch? No, just fooling. We're going to die anyway!"
--- Ford Prefect, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
e-mail: Neal...@aol.com
Jim Sorenson
> I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
> season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
> get into the show.
>
> In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
> I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
> actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
> might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>
> Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
> If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
> emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
> in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
You raise an interesting point, and you are almost certainly right . . .
after a fashion. However, what I think you may be missing is that we
can't be sure who the bad guys really are. Personally I think the
Vorlons will turn out to be villians, which might mean the Shadows are
in a sense good.
Alos, it's not just the endig, but how one gets there. I mean, when you
watch Executive Decision you are pretty sure you know who will win and
who will lose, but you enjoy it because it's done well.
-Galvatron, almighty leader of the Decepticons-
* * * * * * * * *
* "Accidents happen!" *
* -J.T. Marsh *
* * * * * * * * *
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
'lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse)' wrote:
>I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
>season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
>get into the show.
>
>In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
>evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
>generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
>Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
>only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
>I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
>actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
>might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
have just painted a bullseye on your butt. *Especially* with the way your
phrased your subject header. Be prepared for some pretty ridiculous
emotional outbursts. If your're lucky, the most vocal fan club members
have already made their way into the moderated group.
With that being said, I agree with you, and then some. It's like
professional wrestling - you already know the winner before the match
begins. But professional wrestling matches are ten minutes. Babylon5 is
five years. Although it's not gonna happen, I think it would be absolutely
fantastic to see the bad guys win. For me, as far as payoffs go, *that*
would be a bonanza.
-A.J. Tucker-
Robert Everett Brunskill
>
> In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
Want a change of pace? Go watch 'Seven'. It's out on video now. Be ready
to be disturbed.
Rob
Phloem
: I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
: actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
: might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
The beautiful thing about Babylon 5 is that it's too early to know what
will happen in the end.. and there is still room for ambiguity.
--
sugi...@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~sugimotl
gat/md/t/s, er resident<tm>, dreamer, shaper, singer, maker
"to cure sometimes, to relieve often, to comfort always."
Edwin Yoo
: I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
: season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
: get into the show.
you have just explained WHY you don't like the show...you are missing the
BIG PICTURE the STORY ARC. that's why the show is addictive. i for one
don't think the stand alone episodes can compete with ds9....but i
anxiously wait for each new b5 episode because something new will be
revealed...another piece will be given to fit the puzzle together. ds9
has no large story (well, it has one but the writers don't make a large
arc) so if i miss a week, i can just watch it later...but in b5..if you
miss a week...it sucks alot.
: Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
now you are just trolling. (as opposed to before)
if we know we will all die in the end..."so predictably" why try to live
life?...because the PROCESS is important not the end result.
let me guess.. you're a pre-professional with definite set goals in
life? well, others choose to enjoy life as it happens. not just
"destinations".
: emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
: in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
exactly. i think you missed the point of the appeal of b5.
--
***********************************************************
* jet li jackie chan chow yun fat *
* *
* no weakness no equal no fear *
* *
* http://ryan4.student.harvard.edu/~edwinyoo *
***********************************************************
Mark Andrew Siefert
: I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
: season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
: get into the show.
: In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
: evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
: generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
: Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
: only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
: actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
: might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
: emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
: in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
In my opinion, I don't believe that you are looking at the "big
picture." It is true that the resolution of most plots end with the good
guys winning. However a story is not about an end, its about how the
protagonists get to the end. Sure the Army of Light could beat back
the Shadows back to the darkness from wence they came and eveyone who survives
the conflict will live happily ever after, but I want to know how they did it.
I want to know the emotions, the relationships of the between the characters and the
means they ussed to achieve that end. JMS has a story to tell, I say we let
him finish it.
My advice to you is to be paitent and hear B5 out. Watch the story
for how the story is told and not for how its resloved. I think you will be
pleasently surprised by the ride.
--
Later
Mark A. Siefert
E-MAIL: cth...@csd.uwm edu
WWW: http://www.uwm.edu/~cthulhu
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Queen of the Damned
: In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
: evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
: generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
: Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
: only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
An intriguing point. Predictability doesn't seem so bad on
short romps, and can even be quite fun (one just *knows*
that The Arnold is going to kick mucho buttocks, and one
actually looks forward to The Scene wherein The Bad Dude
meets his divinely ordained end).
In Babylon 5's favor, however, it should be noted that
"good" and "evil" have been left somewhat vague. I continue
to hope that the Shadows will prevail, but am not too tied
to that position, because I mostly ignore all of the characters
besides Londo and G'Kar. It isn't all that clear what will
happen to either, and so the predictability factor does not
dominate.
My expectation of what will happen, of course - based on
Lord of the Rings - is that a big old nasty war will break
out where everything looks quite hopeless, and the Shadows
kick the caca out of most everything, until one remarkable
weakness (some cute teenage girl sings a love song) allows
the humans to prevail - though only after the Minbari, the
Centauri, the Narn, and any other alien species have so
"sacrificed" themselves as to be mostly irrelevant. The
Vorlon will say, "Oh, you are the new caretakers of the galaxy,
see ya," and we will get about the business of rebuilding
upon the ashes of the old order.
Pure speculation, of course.
--
Queen of the Damned---x@mtcc.com---http://www.mtcc.com/~x/
Splat X Splat
*X*
Travers Naran
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
You seem a little too certain of yourself. (Cf. "The Prisoner")
--
Travers Naran -- na...@sfu.ca, na...@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca
Computing Science Student, SF/Fantasy fan, Amiga-holic and Anglican
DR. WHO IS BACK IN MAY! MAY 14th ON FOX -- STAY TUNED...
"Stand back... I'm a Programmer!"
Jim Sorenson
> - is that a big old nasty war will break
> out where everything looks quite hopeless, and the Shadows
> kick the caca out of most everything, until one remarkable
> weakness (some cute teenage girl sings a love song) allows
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the humans to prevail
ROTFL!!!!!!!
Man, I when I read this I burst out laughing! (In the middle of computer
math recitation!) Too, too funny.
Carey
>
>
>I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
>season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
>get into the show.
>
>evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
>generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
>Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
>only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
>actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
>might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>
Yeah right. Lord of the Rings is trash too, because we all know that
(SPOILER WARNING) the ring will go into the fire and Sauron will lose.
Beauty and the Beast was rotten because we all knew that the beast
and Belle were going to be together. Dune was rotten book, because I
just knew that (SPOILER) Paul Atriedes was going to win in the end.
Many popular and great pieces of fiction are "predictable" in the
overall ending. Was it often unpredictable is how those stories
reach those endings.
Is B5 predictable? One year ago, say after the episode, "Coming of
Shadows" would you have predicted:
(SPOILERS) ......
The quick destruction of Narn and the end of the war?
The death of Keffler?
The betrayal of Talia Winters?
The Earth/Centauri alliance?
The conversion of G'Kar?
Can you predict was will happen next in the show? What will happen with
B4? What is the fate of Anna Sheridan? When will Sheridan go to Z'hadum
and what will happen to him there? How will Vir become emperor? What is
the meaning of Sheridan's dream. I could go on.
The fact is none of us know the answer to those questions - among many
others. Those are little mini-dramas within the main story, and there is
no guarantee that any of those stories will end happily-ever-after.
Will the main story end happily? I'm pretty sure that it will not be a
bleak ending if that is what you mean. I don't think evil will triumph.
The problem is I'm still not sure who the evil guys are yet. I don't
know what the price will be to defeat evil. And it's not clear how evil
will be defeated.
And you call that predictable?
Patrick
Leon von Stauber
>
> On Apr 04, 1996 05:29:10 in article <Why I Hate Babylon 5>,
> 'lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse)' wrote:
>
> >I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
> >actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
> >might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
> >
> >Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
> >emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
> >in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>
> fantastic to see the bad guys win. For me, as far as payoffs go, *that*
> would be a bonanza.
You know, there are more interesting ways to end a story than just "The good
guys win" or "The bad guys win". I think with Babylon 5 you have a much
better chance of seeing this than with any other TV show, and most movies.
______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.zilker.net/~leonvs/
Occam's Razor <leo...@occam.com>
Zilker Internet Park <leo...@zilker.net>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
Michael Stegbauer
>Lora Crouse wrote:
>>
>> In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
>> evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
>> generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
>> Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
>> only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
>to be disturbed.
>
>Rob
12 Monkeys also.
Actually, "Special Report: Journey to Mars" (made fer TV) was OK, but
had a really cool ending along these lines.
Mike
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
stegbau...@tandem.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jan Allison
> you have just explained WHY you don't like the show...you are missing the
> BIG PICTURE the STORY ARC. that's why the show is addictive. i for one
> don't think the stand alone episodes can compete with ds9....but i
> anxiously wait for each new b5 episode because something new will be
> revealed...another piece will be given to fit the puzzle together. ds9
> has no large story (well, it has one but the writers don't make a large
> arc) so if i miss a week, i can just watch it later...but in b5..if you
> miss a week...it sucks alot.
I couldn't agree more Edwin, I was in the midst of moving cross country when Babylon Squared first
aired, and NO amount of reading about the episode can substitute for having seen it in terms of
having a solid "feel" for the arc.
jan
Bill Capehart
Lora Crouse <lcr...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
Why read any historical novel, then? You know what's going to happen
in the large scheme. Why waste your time?
Spoilers: The Cavaliers Lost.
The English Lost.
Napoleon Lost.
The South Lost.
The German's Lost.
The German's Lost again.
The Japanese Lost.
The North Koreans Lost.
The South Vietnamese Lost.
Next Week: A Made-for-TV Movie, Based on a true story with a happier ending
============================================================================
Bill Capehart <w...@essc.psu.edu> "If you're going to shoot someone you
Penn State Meteorology should mean it. Stun settings are
University Park, PA 16802 for people who cannot commit."
===================== http://www.essc.psu.edu/~wjc =========================
Bruce Lewis
win in real life. Always. No exceptions. They may suffer
setbacks, temporary defeats. or have to fight for ten
thousand years, but the Good Guys will always win.Why?
Because life must continue, and evil = anti-life.
However, there's nothing to say any specific individual
Good Guy will win--or even survive.
The point of the story is not who wins. The point of the
story is what happens to the protagonists in the process
of winning: how they change, what they think, what
winning costs them.
Kind of like real life.
Bruce Lewis輝op Culture Guru
Studio Go! Multimedia
Manhattan Projects Multimedia
*****************************************
Producers of STAR BLAZERS MAGAZINE
and other quality entertainment products.
*****************************************
Bill DeRouchey
>
> In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
> actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
> might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>
> If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
> emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
> in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
I'm sorry you need resolution in two hours. Watching B5 is the joy of an epic story.
King Arthur. Lord of the Rings. Why read a 1000-page book? The joy of the story.
--
Bill DeRouchey, Fluxion Media
bil...@fluxion.com
Mike Gannis
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
Lora -
You are going to die. (That's not intended as a threat, it's simply a
statement of fact.)
Given that you *know* that your life will end, why bother with the
interval between now and then?
Just asking ...
Robert Holland
>
>
> : In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> : evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> : generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> : Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> : only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
> short romps, and can even be quite fun (one just *knows*
> that The Arnold is going to kick mucho buttocks, and one
> actually looks forward to The Scene wherein The Bad Dude
> meets his divinely ordained end).
>
> In Babylon 5's favor, however, it should be noted that
> "good" and "evil" have been left somewhat vague. I continue
> to hope that the Shadows will prevail, but am not too tied
> to that position, because I mostly ignore all of the characters
> besides Londo and G'Kar. It isn't all that clear what will
> happen to either, and so the predictability factor does not
> dominate.
>
> My expectation of what will happen, of course - based on
> out where everything looks quite hopeless, and the Shadows
> kick the caca out of most everything, until one remarkable
> weakness (some cute teenage girl sings a love song) allows
> Centauri, the Narn, and any other alien species have so
> "sacrificed" themselves as to be mostly irrelevant. The
> Vorlon will say, "Oh, you are the new caretakers of the galaxy,
> see ya," and we will get about the business of rebuilding
> upon the ashes of the old order.
>
> Pure speculation, of course.
>
Ah ha! So, there it is: the prediction based on LOTR. Finally,
after all the yak, someone has the balls to take the next
step. Now I've got to think about this aspect further...
I hope this is not how B5 turns out, because after this mess
called Severed Dreams, I don't think JMS does war well at all.
Maybe I shouldn't have read the detailed episode summary I
saw on a website--the actual item seemed flat in comparison.
(On the other hand, if he keeps stretching out those Starfury
designs, he should have a StarWars X-wing fighter by the fifth
season. Yahoo Luke Skywalker.)
Ya pays yer ticket and takes yer chances, indeed. Yuk.
--RH
Zeljko 'Zed' Zidaric
>Lora Crouse (lcr...@wesleyan.edu) wrote:
>: I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
>: season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
>: get into the show.
(snip)
>: Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>: If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>: emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>: in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
So, you just painted yourself as shallow and in need of a quick fix in
whatever you do or watch. Do you suffer from Attention Deficit
Disorder? Can you follow a long and complex plotline?
If not... go watch Beavis and Butthead.
Let me ask you one thing?
What is more important?
A. The Journey
or
B. Getting to the Destination?
In life, we all know what the outcome will be... so why bother?
At movies, we know what the oucome will be... so why go?
B5 is one of the best sci-fi shows around.
I thank JMS for trying something new.
Zeljko 'Zed' Zidaric
"Sound argument will have more weight with me than popular opinion."
- Cicero, Paradoxa, I, 8.
Borrowed temporarily...
The only people that defend homos are liberals, and homos..
Which are you?
Zeljko 'Zed' Zidaric
(snip)
>In Babylon 5's favor, however, it should be noted that
>"good" and "evil" have been left somewhat vague. I continue
>to hope that the Shadows will prevail,
I too hope that the Shadows win.
In this way we can have Babylon 5: The Next Generation
where we see the outcome of petty politics and powerplays destroy
humanity and other races....
where we see the good guys fighting as guerrilas and terrorists.
Seeing the Shadows victorious would be a good thing in the long run.
The_Doge of St. Louis
Crouse) wrote:
>
>I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
>actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
>might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
You are, of course, making the assumption that it's going to proceed
exactly the way every other pop movie or TeeVee show you've seen is going
to progress. This is a quesionable assumption at best, especially when
you consider that two shows of which jms has spoken highly are "The
Prisoner" and "Blake's 7", neither of which ended this way. In fact, I
strongly suspect that The Year of the Shadow War is going to end in
victory for the Shadows.
>
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
We all know how "Hamlet" or "Death of a Salesman" ends (heck, Miller
gives the whole thing away *in the title*! Talk about predictable!*).
Why spend three hours on a play that you know will end so predictably?
The point being, of course, that knowing how something ends is largely
irrelevant unless it's a murder mystery or suspense thriller, which B5 was
never intended to be.
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
Can't agree, myself. The characters and the way they're written (with
flaws and systematic changes over time) are what attracted me to the show
in the first place. And I personally think most of jms' attempts at humor
have, in fact, been among the weakest parts of the show, with a few
classic exceptions such as the Ivanova Mantra. As for inter-species
romance (which I, personally, have always found absurd) or lots of
coupling in general, I think you're just watching the wrong TeeVee series.
Well, de gustibus and all that. To me, it looks like you're making
assumptions about this show that are leading you to erroneous conclusions,
but ultimatley it's a matter of taste. If you don't like it, you probably
shouldn't waste your time watching it.
Or, for that matter, going out of your way to tell the show's fans why
you don't like it. For example: I wouldn't post "Why I hate Voyager" in
alt.star-trek.voyager, myself, because I'd consider it a bit rude. Guess
I'm just old-fashioned that way.
*Insert smiley here.
--
<*> ObQuote: "Most religions do not make men better, only warier."
-- Elias Canetti
======================================================================
<*> The_Doge of St. Louis
Stage, screen, radio
http://www.inlink.com/~thedoge/
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
Lewis <bc...@deltanet.com>' wrote:
>The Good Guys win in the story because the Good Guys
>win in real life. Always. No exceptions. They may suffer
>setbacks, temporary defeats. or have to fight for ten
>thousand years, but the Good Guys will always win.
downbeat note, with evil destroying good, would be a fantastic change of
pace and would be wholly satisfying. You're wrong. The Bad Guys often win
in real life. But Hollywood ain't real life. Rest assured, Babylon5 will
end on an upbeat note with all the cliches attached.
-A.J. Tucker-
Lora Crouse
>Lora Crouse <lcr...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>Why read any historical novel, then? You know what's going to happen
>in the large scheme. Why waste your time?
I made this point in my original post. You usually spend only a
number of fairly consecutive hours on novels. Babylon 5 takes many
hours and it runs over years. I don't really know how to define this
genre. I've heard it compared to a novel, but don't think that's
really accurate. It's just too damn long to be even the longest of
novels, not just for the number of t.v. hours it takes up, but for for
the time span they are given out over. This makes a difference, to
me, in my willingness to put up w/ predictable story endings.
Lora
Jay Denebeim
Lora Crouse <lcr...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>I don't really know how to define this
>genre. I've heard it compared to a novel, but don't think that's
>really accurate. It's just too damn long to be even the longest of
>novels, not just for the number of t.v. hours it takes up, but for for
>the time span they are given out over. This makes a difference, to
>me, in my willingness to put up w/ predictable story endings.
Well, it's most similar to some of the pulps in the golden age.
Heinlein's future history, and Asimov's foundation are probably the
most famous. These were individual short stories told over a period
of years in the pulps.
Jay
--
Jay Denebeim dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
duke.edu!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Fuck censorship! Oh *shit* there goes another 100, er $200,000
Matt Landau
>I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
>actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
>might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
How do you know? How do you know you even know who the "good" guys
are? Think back to the first season. Remember Londo, the buffoon?
Remember G'Kar, the angry scheming Narn? Did *you* forsee how their
lives were going to change? Can you forsee what's still to come for
them, or for Kosh, or for Delenn, or for Bester, or for Ivanova, or
for Sheridan?
Mark Sulkowski
>
> : In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
> : evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
> : generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
> : Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
> : only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>
If there is one thing that is true about Babylon 5, it is:
"Expect the unexpected!"
But let us that that you are right and "good" does win in
the end ... what is wrong with that? I've read _The Lord of the Rings_
about ten times over the past fifteen years. I know how the damn
story ends, but I love it every time.
Are you saying that evil has to win (unambiguously) for a
story to be interesting? I think most people would complain when
the story was over.
Mark S.
Phloem
Lewis <bc...@deltanet.com>' wrote:
: The Good Guys win in the story because the Good Guys
: win in real life. Always. No exceptions. They may suffer
: setbacks, temporary defeats. or have to fight for ten
: thousand years, but the Good Guys will always win.
Bullshit. Good people die every day. The Good Guys get thwarted all the
time. I work night and day to save people's lives, and they sometimes
have the audacity to die on me. You think the Good Guys won in
Yugoslavia? Har, right. Did *ANYBODY* win in Yugoslavia?
Even if they don't win, the world comes to a stalemate more often than not.
Pull your head outta your ass, Lewis, and join the Real World.
Bruce Lewis
>On Apr 05, 1996 18:01:42 in article <Re: Why I Hate Babylon 5>, 'Bruce
>Lewis <bc...@deltanet.com>' wrote:
>
>
>>The Good Guys win in the story because the Good Guys
>>win in real life. Always. No exceptions. They may suffer
>>setbacks, temporary defeats. or have to fight for ten
>>thousand years, but the Good Guys will always win.
>
>downbeat note, with evil destroying good, would be a fantastic change of
>pace and would be wholly satisfying. You're wrong. The Bad Guys often win
>in real life. But Hollywood ain't real life. Rest assured, Babylon5 will
>end on an upbeat note with all the cliches attached.
Did OJ really "win?" I don't know if I'd call what he ended up
with "victory." Besides, I meant the Good Guys always win OVERALL,
not in every specific case. I mean the Forces of Good in the Universe
(for lack of a better term) will always win out over the Forces of Evil
in the long run. If not, life would cease to exist.
If the Good Guys hadn't won more often than not in the past,
you and I would not be here.
Matthew W Buckley
Babylon 5 by Bruce Le...@deltanet.com
> Did OJ really "win?" I don't know if I'd call what he ended up
> with "victory." Besides, I meant the Good Guys always win OVERALL,
> not in every specific case. I mean the Forces of Good in the Universe
> (for lack of a better term) will always win out over the Forces of Evil
> in the long run. If not, life would cease to exist.
>
> If the Good Guys hadn't won more often than not in the past,
> you and I would not be here.
>
The good guys always win because the winners decide who the good guys
are.
_ _ __
/ \/ \ | | | | |__| | | /__ Read it upside <*>
| | | \__|___|__ | |__ | | \ down!
| | | __ | __|___|__ | | |
| | __| | | | \ | | | ###################################
| | |__| | | | | \_/\_/ # Matthew Buckley: sau...@cmu.edu #
###################################
Homepage URL: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/sauron/www/
John Moreno
> x...@mtcc.com (Queen of the Damned) wrote:
> (snip)
> >In Babylon 5's favor, however, it should be noted that
> >"good" and "evil" have been left somewhat vague. I continue
> >to hope that the Shadows will prevail,
> I too hope that the Shadows win.
> In this way we can have Babylon 5: The Next Generation
> where we see the outcome of petty politics and powerplays destroy
> humanity and other races....
> where we see the good guys fighting as guerrilas and terrorists.
> Seeing the Shadows victorious would be a good thing in the long run.
This is at odds with the stated intention of having a 5 year show. No
More, No Less. It would be realistic, but disapointing if the series
ends with the good guys going guerrilas.
> Zeljko 'Zed' Zidaric
> "Sound argument will have more weight with me than popular opinion."
> - Cicero, Paradoxa, I, 8.
> Borrowed temporarily...
> The only people that defend homos are liberals, and homos..
> Which are you?
To all personal either or questions there are only 2 possible answers.
1: That's none of your fucking bussines.
2: Maybe.
3: I not sure, but have you stopped beating your boyfriend yet.
John Moreno
ps the 3rd choice is neither overlooked or a mistake, in life you don't
mark off your options, you look around and add to your choices. One step
back two steps sideways.
John Moreno
>
> w...@essc.psu.edu (Bill Capehart) wrote:
-snip-
> >Why read any historical novel, then? You know what's going to happen
> >in the large scheme. Why waste your time?
>
> I made this point in my original post. You usually spend only a
> number of fairly consecutive hours on novels. Babylon 5 takes many
> genre. I've heard it compared to a novel, but don't think that's
> really accurate. It's just too damn long to be even the longest of
> novels, not just for the number of t.v. hours it takes up, but for for
> the time span they are given out over. This makes a difference, to
> me, in my willingness to put up w/ predictable story endings.
What it is is an EPIC,an indepth telling of a story, something that is
sadly lacking in today's world of sound bites. It will take up about
110 hours, quite a lot of time actually, BUT the story ending might not
be as predictable as you think, and in any case the reason that *MOST*
of us enjoy it is because it's doesn't solve the mystery of life, the
universe and everything (forgive me Mr. Adams) in a hour or two.
On to the ending....
I have the hope that at the end, we won't find out the MORAL of the
STORY is: Be Nice To Your Mother, or any other silly nonsense like that.
If it has any MORAL at all I think it's something like: The Price of
FREEDOM is ETERNAL Vigilance, Not Today, Not Tomorrow, But EVERYDAY.
John Moreno
Jack Hudler
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>
Well all I can say is... There are people who can make a commitment,
and those who can't. I would say you have trouble make commitments.
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
have you been watching the old Bob Newhart show again? Yeah, that's the
ticket. The reason that she thinks Babylon5 is unsatisfying is because she
has trouble making commitments. That will be $120.00, please. Would you
like us to bill your insurance company, or will you be paying by check?
-A.J. Tucker-
Karen Cushing
> lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse) wrote:
>
>
>>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>>
>
> Well all I can say is... There are people who can make a commitment,
> and those who can't. I would say you have trouble make commitments.
Are you a psycologist? If you are then how can you possibility
determine that this person has trouble making committments just by
their opinions of B-5.
Lora Crouse
>lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse) wrote:
>>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>>
>Well all I can say is... There are people who can make a commitment,
>and those who can't. I would say you have trouble make commitments.
Comparing Babylon 5 to life commitments is mute. Life is more
enjoyable on a day-to-day basis than Babylon 5 episodes. Plus,
commitments in real life _can_ and _do_ end up badly. Maybe I'm just
too culturally polluted to believe that Babylon 5 actually can pull
off a evil-wins or the-evil/good-dichotomy-is-false ending. I just
don't think it will.
Lora
John Moreno
> >lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse) wrote:
>
> >>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
> >>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
> >>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff.
> >>But,in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
> >Well all I can say is... There are people who can make a commitment,
> >and those who can't. I would say you have trouble make commitments.
> Comparing Babylon 5 to life commitments is mute. Life is more
> enjoyable on a day-to-day basis than Babylon 5 episodes. Plus,
Comparing watching B5 to marriage, or to any other commitment is
certainly a nice debating dodge, but not really valide. BUT shouldn't
you have said "B5 is more enjoable on a day-to-day basis"? :)
> commitments in real life _can_ and _do_ end up badly. Maybe I'm just
> too culturally polluted to believe that Babylon 5 actually can pull
> off a evil-wins or the-evil/good-dichotomy-is-false ending. I just
> don't think it will.
>
> Lora
What would you think of an evils is driven off TEMPORARILY ending?
John Moreno
Mark Sulkowski
>For Babylon5 to end on a
>downbeat note, with evil destroying good, would be a fantastic change of
>pace and would be wholly satisfying.
I disagree. It is easy to say that RIGHT NOW, but if B5 were
to actually end with evil destroying good, the vast majority of fans
would lynch Straczynski.
Imagine that _The Lord of the Rings_ were to end with Sauron
killing off the good guys. Would that make for a better saga? In my
judgement, absolutely not. It would have ruined the story. People
would say "all the good guys' trials amounted to nothing ... the story
ended up one big fat zero ... what a downer ... I'm never reading it
again".
Mark S.
Paul Robinson
> > Comparing Babylon 5 to life commitments is mute. Life is more
> > enjoyable on a day-to-day basis than Babylon 5 episodes. Plus,
> > too culturally polluted to believe that Babylon 5 actually can pull
> > off a evil-wins or the-evil/good-dichotomy-is-false ending. I just
> > don't think it will.
> > Lora
Does this mean that evil has to win in order for the story to be
unpredicatable enough to be stimulating? You must have hated the Star
Wars trilogy. Actually, you must hate almost any adventure/action/fantasy
genre story. Lord of the Rings sucked that way, eh?
Paul
Hernan Espinoza
>Did OJ really "win?" I don't know if I'd call what he ended up
>with "victory." Besides, I meant the Good Guys always win OVERALL,
>not in every specific case. I mean the Forces of Good in the Universe
>(for lack of a better term) will always win out over the Forces of Evil
>in the long run. If not, life would cease to exist.
>If the Good Guys hadn't won more often than not in the past,
>you and I would not be here.
It only looks that way because the victors get to write
history and decide who the GOOD GUYS(tm) are (usually themselves).
That said, thank god there is an opitimist out there!
Thanks for the post! -Hernan
Dennis Flory
>
>lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora Crouse) wrote:
>
>
>>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>>
>
>Well all I can say is... There are people who can make a commitment,
>and those who can't. I would say you have trouble make commitments.
>
She can go back and watch TNG reruns if she wants emphasis on character
development; it's her privelege. To each their own. And I'm not sure where she gets
off thinking that B5 will neccesarily end "predictably." It's ST that was always
preditable.
Dennis
-------========>>>>>>>> ******** <<<<<<<<=========-------
"We've got nothing better to do,
than watch TV and have a bottle of brew."
Rollins
-------========>>>>>>>> ******** <<<<<<<<=========-------
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
Sulkowski <ma...@apollo3.com>' wrote:
>porkm...@usa.pipeline.com() wrote:
>>For Babylon5 to end on a
>>downbeat note, with evil destroying good, would be a fantastic change of
>>pace and would be wholly satisfying.
>
> I disagree. It is easy to say that RIGHT NOW, but if B5 were
>to actually end with evil destroying good, the vast majority of fans
>would lynch Straczynski.
I despise predictability, which is essentially what I've found Babylon5 to
be. Predictable. Except when WB messed with the show at the beginning of
Season 2, which made it not predictable, but rather nonsensical.
And one other thing, and I hope there's others out there that agree with
me. Although it's just a supporting role, I think that the actress who
plays Delenn does an absolutely terrible job. She makes Michael O'Hare's
acting look like Shakespeare. They replaced O'Hare, but they can't replace
whatever her name is. I know that this is her first American role, but
regardless, IMHO, she sucks the lifeblood out of every scene in which she
appears. She is Awful, with a capital A.
-A.J. Tucker-
Queen of the Damned
: Does this mean that evil has to win in order for the story to be
: unpredicatable enough to be stimulating? You must have hated the Star
: Wars trilogy. Actually, you must hate almost any adventure/action/fantasy
: genre story. Lord of the Rings sucked that way, eh?
The original point was that Star Wars and Lord of the Rings
and yada yada yada had predictable endings which did not take
five years to reach. And yet, there is nothing in particular
we are getting in B5 that isn't in Star Wars. Evil mystical
force. Good mystical force. Big battles. Wham wham wham,
moves right along. Ends. Lord of the Rings: evil mystical
force. Good mystical force. Moves right along. wham wham
wham. Ends.
Babylon 5: evil mystical force. Good mystical force.
Big battles. Moves like a crushed snail. Wham. Moves
like a crushed snail. Wham. Moves like a crushed snail.
Wham. There is not five years of story in this plot, and
the non-"arc" stories don't add much to the salad. Choosing
a fixed time period for a story is a pretty fucking silly
way of pacing it. Taking the amount of time appropriate to
the telling would make just a *little* more sense.
If, however, "evil" were to triumph, it could be argued
that, no, this was not just another "evil mystical force,
good mystical force, big battles, good wins" story, even
if it did take bloody forever.
--
Queen of the Damned---x@mtcc.com---http://www.mtcc.com/~x/
Splat X Splat
*X*
Queen of the Damned
: And one other thing, and I hope there's others out there that agree with
: me. Although it's just a supporting role, I think that the actress who
: plays Delenn does an absolutely terrible job. She makes Michael O'Hare's
: acting look like Shakespeare. They replaced O'Hare, but they can't replace
: whatever her name is. I know that this is her first American role, but
: regardless, IMHO, she sucks the lifeblood out of every scene in which she
: appears. She is Awful, with a capital A.
She's not Lilian Gish, but I think it should be mentioned that
the *part* has been Awful, with a capital A, since she turned
into a half-thing - at least up until this most recent episode.
And in Severed Dreams, I think she held her own nicely.
Robert Holland
I think the other major difference is you don't really know
who is good and who is evil, even half way into B5. Motives
are not clear, leaving JMS the opportunity to trick you
near the end by revealing that, all along, your presumed
evil force is actually good. Standard mystery treatment from
a mystery tv writer--hide the motive and confuse the
viewer into making false assumptions.
Another possible ending would be to reveal that there are
no good or evil beings in the B5 universe. No absolutes
whatsoever. I doubt that will be the case, because there
are some absolutely evil doings that need explanation.
--RH
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
(Queen of the Damned)' wrote:
I *hope* she's not Lilian Gish. What would she be now..about 120 years
old? But you know, you may be right. You just don't know with this show.
The actors have such lousy dialogue shoved in their mouths, you don't know
whether it's the actor or the words they're given. I, for one, am getting
pretty damn sick of reading Straczynski's boasts that he's the first guy to
write all 22 eps of a drama in one season. Well, you know what? It shows.
David Kelley pretty much does the same thing, and has for years, but what
comes out of *his* characters' mouths is often poetry. Kelley is as
prolific, if not more, but there's quality to go along with the quantity.
I'm going to say it...Straczynski is a mediocre writer. Kelley churns out
steak, Straczynski churns out hamburger. His past television writing prior
to Babylon5 was TV wasteland garbage. Jake and the Fatman, that sort of
crap. He's not naive. He knows he wasn't writing Masterpiece Theatre,
then. It's great money to write, edit and produce assembly line
television, and it's a steppingstone for bigger and better things, such as
what he has now. He wants those royalties bad. But he *thinks* he's
writing Masterpiece Theatre with Babylon5. WRONG. Epic theatre? More
like theatre of the absurd. While his vision may be strong, while he may
make a good executive producer, better he should stick to rewrites of other
people's scripts, if he's going to write at all. Turn off the picture
sometime, and just listen to the words. I have taped some episodes and
done just that. Without the excellent makeup and special effects, there's
really not much left but the sound. It's a visual show with some mediocre,
and at times, terrible writing. Of course there have been some exceptions,
but by and large, he has proven deficient at the one thing he brags about
to anyone who will listen: his writing.
-A.J. Tucker-
Tom McLean
> Yeah right. Lord of the Rings is trash too, because we all know that
> (SPOILER WARNING) the ring will go into the fire and Sauron will lose.
> Beauty and the Beast was rotten because we all knew that the beast
> and Belle were going to be together. Dune was rotten book, because I
> just knew that (SPOILER) Paul Atriedes was going to win in the end.
You butthead! I haven't finished reading LoTR, and your pathetic
"spoiler" protection did me no good. Please erase your post and save
others from the mind-raging experience of having this century's classic
tale ruined for them. Idiot.
-Tom
<Life's only certainty is death> Thus began the morbid years.
Email address: tmc...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Holland
>
> porkm...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
>
> : And one other thing, and I hope there's others out there that agree with
> : me. Although it's just a supporting role, I think that the actress who
> : plays Delenn does an absolutely terrible job. She makes Michael O'Hare's
> : acting look like Shakespeare. They replaced O'Hare, but they can't replace
> : whatever her name is. I know that this is her first American role, but
> : regardless, IMHO, she sucks the lifeblood out of every scene in which she
> : appears. She is Awful, with a capital A.
>
> She's not Lilian Gish, but I think it should be mentioned that
> the *part* has been Awful, with a capital A, since she turned
> into a half-thing - at least up until this most recent episode.
> And in Severed Dreams, I think she held her own nicely.
>
I think Mira Furlan proved her ability when she delivered the "motor
butt"
lines. Anyone of lesser skill would have made that bit of dialog sound
as absa-fraggin-ridiculous as it was. She made it sound genuine.
----<-@
whiners... Not one of the people offering detailed critiques about the
pacing or writing quality of the show has either a) offered any constructive
suggestions about how to do it better, b) ever been a working, published,
vaguely talented writer, or c) reminded us why they bother to watch in the
first place.
It's not that they're jealous, or even necessarily off the mark in some
cases. It's just a matter of people who've been weaned on neat, tidy,
episodic television who can't get used to something radically different,
and don't know how to express their confusion or unfamiliarity by saying
anything but "it sucks, and should be done differently".
When they're lots of talking, character development and gradual plotting
over time, they complain it's too slow and boring, and that people should
just shoot/space/destroy/maim the bad guys and get on with it. When
there's quality special effects and space combat, they wonder why more
time isn't being spent explaining the technology, characters or plot.
They don't know what they want, or at the very least can't express it, so
naturally it just comes out as meandering, pointless bitching.
I'm not saying you *have* to be a writer to be have valid opinions about
the show; it just puzzles me why people who have this much energy devoted
to complaining about B5 don't either write their own material the "right"
way, or STOP WATCHING if they think it's THAT BAD.
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
Easy question. It's because of the arc. As poorly as it's been conceived,
whether because of Warner Brothers' demands or because of Straczynski
himself, I want to know how it ends and how it achieved that end. I
started the "book", I have to know how it ends. To be honest, though,
there have been times the show has been so bad, so much of a mess, that I
wish I was never hooked by the bait in the first place.
And I'm not sure what you're talking in your last paragraph, when you talk
about "write their own material the "right" way." As far as I am aware,
nobody in this newsgroup is on Straczynski's writing staff. For that
matter, even if somebody was, Straczynski would rewrite the entire script
anyway.
Bottom line. If Babylon5 did not have an arc, I would have stopped
watching sometime during the middle of the first season.
-A.J. Tucker-
The_Doge of St. Louis
: > porkm...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
: >
: > : And one other thing, and I hope there's others out there that agree with
: > : me. Although it's just a supporting role, I think that the actress who
: > : plays Delenn does an absolutely terrible job.
theatrical productions for over 30 years, it is my view that this is about
as inaccurate an assessment abilities as I have ever seen on the net.
Mira Furlan has done a quite polished job, thank you, of portraying the
major changes that Delenn has gone through and continues to go through
as part of her personal arc.
This is hardly surprising, as Furlan was an actress of considerable
reputation in her native Yugoslavia before emigrating. This point was brought
homw to me recently during an email exchange with another Yugoslav emigre. Just
for the heck of it I asked if she'd heard of Furlan, and she replied that of
*course* she had - Furlan was a well-known film actress. Just shows you how
isular we Americans can be, I guess.
: >
: > She's not Lilian Gish, but I think it should be mentioned that
: > the *part* has been Awful, with a capital A, since she turned
: > into a half-thing - at least up until this most recent episode.
: > And in Severed Dreams, I think she held her own nicely.
Delenn has gone through some major changes this past season or so. The
changes altered the way in which she reacted to events, as well they should
have. This is known as character development, and is something one should
bet used to if one intends to continue watching this series.
Having gone through the "refiner's fire", Delenn has found some of her
old resolve again. But the point is that going *through* the fire (almost
literally, a la "The Magic Flute") was a necessary part of that.
Anyone who wants to actually appreciate what's happening in this show,
IMHO, ought to turn off their TeeVee sets and catch some live theatre -
perferably Miller, Fry, or Williams. The writing generally follows those
models than anything you'rel likely to see on the Boob Tube on a regular
basis.
I'll qualify that last statement, however, by admitting that I don't
watch the ol' Glass Teat very much, so I'm not that aware of what *is* on it
these days. The only time I turned it on last week was to watch the tape of
SD I'd made via timer the night before.
---
The_Doge of St. Louis
Stage, screen, and radio
http://www.inlink.com/~thedoge/
---
Karel Driesen
>Of course, this whole discussion has been rendered moot by the more vocal
>whiners... Not one of the people offering detailed critiques about the
>pacing or writing quality of the show has either a) offered any constructive
>suggestions about how to do it better, b) ever been a working, published,
>vaguely talented writer, or c) reminded us why they bother to watch in the
>first place.
If I ever read bullshit, this is it. A writer writes for a public that consists
for 90% or more of readers. If you restrict the right to critique to fellow writers,
then anyone who is not an elected politician should shut up about politics,
anyone who doesn't do drugs should shut up about drug use (might be a good
idea), anyone who's not a judge, lawyer, prosecuter or jury member should shut
up about the Simpson case (even better idea !), etc... We should all stay in our
professions and consume whatever art is proscribed by the artists. Can you spell
indoctrination ?
I happen to agree that *some* of JMS's writing is horrible: cheesy dialog, childish
humor, wrongful use of coincidence (especially the "just in time" rescue by Delenn),
and occasional world-building goof-ups.
BUT
a) He still does a better job, overall, than most of the episodes in "those other
series".
b) Nothing is as hard to keep consistent as hard SF, and B5 is pretty hard SF as
far as the EA science goes. (compare that to, for instance, the virtual reality
episode in "Nowhere Man", to pick an easy target)
c) Good writing is rewriting, and the man just doesn't have the time, being producer
as well.
You could say that c) is his own fault, but I don't think so. He is breaking new
ground. The only way to have continuity in the current climate is to take two jobs.
I am happy someone is willing to do that. Hopefully, in the future, a close-knit
writer/producer team can do the same job better.
>It's not that they're jealous, or even necessarily off the mark in some
>cases. It's just a matter of people who've been weaned on neat, tidy,
>episodic television who can't get used to something radically different,
>and don't know how to express their confusion or unfamiliarity by saying
>anything but "it sucks, and should be done differently".
Untrue. Most of the critiques want something even more radically different.
What I would really like is to have more continuity, less episodical stuff.
More foreshadowing *with followup* , less "out of the blue" experiences.
To give one example: the Delenn/
Grey council thread had beautiful potential, which was never realized. In the ideal
world, her stint in "severed dreams" would be build up slowly over 5 or more
episodes, with political intrigue, Delenn gathering political support (it is never
revealed how she does this, so far from the homeworld), and then the final confrontation
as the main theme of an entire episode, with repercussions for another x episodes or so.
The way it is now, you see Delenn going to the Grey council, shouting her way in
(very un-Minbari, IMHO, for an honor-bound guard to give in to her almost hysterial
ravings), with the council just taking this without discussion (what a missed
opportunity !), another piece of shouting that never really added anything to the
facts these guys undoubtedly knew already, and then the breaking of this stick, that
nobody ever told anyone was important, which somehow convinces half of the council to
follow her lead, while they first didn't even want to see her. Theatre of the absurd.
Delenn stars as the shouting matron, the council as a bunch of kids that hide from
mother, but when she threatens to spank them, they give in without even looking her in
the eyes.
Now you could explain all this away by saying "JMS's ways are mysterious" and "all
will be revealed", but I don't think so, actually. There have been too many plot threads
that were started but died from neglect (What about the doctor's addiction ? Wonderful
material that never went anywhere. He should have at least killed a patient
accidentally. ;^) *Something* should have happened, if only him telling Garibaldy:
"Thanks Bro, I kicked off"). And if there are good reasons why all this went the way it
was shown, then we should have been fed some clues. The impression it leaves is part
of the writing, and my impression was "he is making this up as he goes".
B5 is not the equivalent of a five-book epic. It is the equivalent of five collections
of short stories by the same author, retro-fitted into the same universe, with a very
thinly spread arc that glues things together.
G'Kar's story is much better handled, as is Mollari's. I don't know whether it is the
actors or the way they are written or both, but something is *happening* to these
people. I wish Delenn and Sheridan were done in a similar fashion.
>When they're lots of talking, character development and gradual plotting
>over time, they complain it's too slow and boring, and that people should
>just shoot/space/destroy/maim the bad guys and get on with it. When
>there's quality special effects and space combat, they wonder why more
>time isn't being spent explaining the technology, characters or plot.
What's wrong with wanting both ? Severed dreams could easily have been a two-parter.
>They don't know what they want, or at the very least can't express it, so
>naturally it just comes out as meandering, pointless bitching.
I would apply that to myself, if I were you (and if you insist on personal arguments).
>I'm not saying you *have* to be a writer to be have valid opinions about
>the show; it just puzzles me why people who have this much energy devoted
>to complaining about B5 don't either write their own material the "right"
>way, or STOP WATCHING if they think it's THAT BAD.
It is not that bad. It could have been much better, and the reason why it is not is
mainly because of the medium. If JMS didn't have to bust his balls to push his vision,
if TV accepted the idea of more than 9 minutes to one hour chunks of entertainment,
then he could delegate stuff to others and improve his writing.
If anything, B5 should have taught you by now that there is no black and white, only
shades of grey (that's a quote from DS9, BTW).
Karel Driesen
Queen of the Damned
: Of course, this whole discussion has been rendered moot by the more vocal
: pacing or writing quality of the show has either a) offered any constructive
: suggestions about how to do it better, b) ever been a working, published,
: vaguely talented writer, or c) reminded us why they bother to watch in the
: first place.
In fact, you are a dipshit in the wrong group. Romper Room is
one group down. As to suggestions for improvement, they have
been legion: Ivanova should have shut the fuck up when she was
about to kill Bester. Ivanova should have told Delenn to shut
the fuck up when Sheridan's life was in danger, and not launched
into a boring expository babbleon which served only to distract
her from the problem at hand. The major's whining about killing
another Earth ship should have gone:
Major: Did you know the captain of the Clarkstown?
#1: No, sir.
Major: I did.
#1: I knew the communications officer. It was us or them.
Major: That doesn't make it any easier.
#1: What's our course, sir?
Major: Babylon 5.
The ending of Voices was bullshit. Ivanova should have opened
fire on the ConTiki punchbowl. The ending of Messages was
bullshit. The White Star should have arrived too late to prevent
the Shadow spider from destroying a few EA cruisers. The
ending of Point was bullshit. Sheridan should have spaced
the NightWatch. The premise of using Jack the Ripper as a
religious inquisitor was probably the result of some bad
shrooms. It would have been intriguing to see another Vorlon
besides Kosh - maybe even one Kosh himself was afraid of.
The magical Q-like abilities of creating fire and teleporting
people into manacles on wall fans could have been explained
as a telepathic trick of said Vorlon.
The only reasons to watch this show have also been enumerated:
1. Londo
2. Shadows
3. G'Kar
Now, why don't you run along to the moderated group. I'm
*sure* you're missing a positively *brilliant* purple-green
thread.
Queen of the Damned
[moi]
: : > She's not Lilian Gish, but I think it should be mentioned that
: : > the *part* has been Awful, with a capital A, since she turned
: : > into a half-thing - at least up until this most recent episode.
: : > And in Severed Dreams, I think she held her own nicely.
: I disagree completely with everything but this last sentence.
Shock follows shock.
: changes altered the way in which she reacted to events, as well they should
: have. This is known as character development, and is something one should
: bet used to if one intends to continue watching this series.
Oh, bullshit. Delenn's character development has been to ask
stupid questions about EA stuff so WeTheViewers know what is
going on "Excuse me, Mr. Garibaldi, what is a mind wipe?" "Excuse
me, Ivanova, why is the captain floating in the air?" When
not asking stupid questions, she is revealing remarkable pieces
of information "Shadow ships have living beings at their core."
"Here's a new cruiser for you to fly around in, John."
: Anyone who wants to actually appreciate what's happening in this show,
: IMHO, ought to turn off their TeeVee sets and catch some live theatre -
: perferably Miller, Fry, or Williams. The writing generally follows those
: models than anything you'rel likely to see on the Boob Tube on a regular
: basis.
Presumably you intend the above to be flattery of the teevee
show. Of course, theater takes place in one big, long master
shot - as opposed, say, to cinema, where the director has the
luxury of directing the audiences attention exactly where he
wants it. But even allowing for theater's relatively intellectual
verbosity, one suspects that if JMS had written Streetcar, Stanley's
Great Scene would go something like:
I'm very angry and disappointed, Stella! A wife belongs
with her husband, not hiding with the neighbors! You
are my wife, Stella, and you belong with me! Come down
here right now! Stella! Will you sacrifice everything
you should be to pretend you're something you're not?
Poor Williams only got:
Stella! Stella! Stella!
He placed such a terrible burden on the actor, that bastard.
Michael Benedetto
> I'm going to say it...Straczynski is a mediocre writer. Kelley churns out
> steak, Straczynski churns out hamburger. His past television writing prior
> to Babylon5 was TV wasteland garbage. Jake and the Fatman, that sort of
> crap. He's not naive. He knows he wasn't writing Masterpiece Theatre,
> then. It's great money to write, edit and produce assembly line
> television, and it's a steppingstone for bigger and better things, such as
> what he has now. He wants those royalties bad. But he *thinks* he's
> writing Masterpiece Theatre with Babylon5. WRONG. Epic theatre? More
> like theatre of the absurd. While his vision may be strong, while he may
> make a good executive producer, better he should stick to rewrites of other
> people's scripts, if he's going to write at all. Turn off the picture
> sometime, and just listen to the words. I have taped some episodes and
> done just that. Without the excellent makeup and special effects, there's
> really not much left but the sound. It's a visual show with some mediocre,
> and at times, terrible writing. Of course there have been some exceptions,
> but by and large, he has proven deficient at the one thing he brags about
> to anyone who will listen: his writing.
>
> -A.J. Tucker-
Well, why the hell are you on this group? If you aren't impressed, leave us
alone. I'm not a drooling adulator, but I think JMS is talented and I read
rastB5 to discuss the intricasies of his story. You obviously aren't interested
in doing so, so I can only assume that you want to piss off everyone who is.
You've done a wonderful job.
I didn't read rastB5 while JMS was here, but I can see why he found it
intolerable to keep posting here -- without making any specific references,
you referred to his writing as "terrible", you called him lazy for producing
"assembly line television", and said he was motivated only by money (which must
be just _rolling_ in now that B5 dominates the ratings).
There's no law that says you have to be tactful and polite, but your comments
are meanspirited and don't add anything to discussion here. I suppose I'm
wasting my breath, but it makes me angry that some people seem bent on ruining
the newsgroup for everyone by posting remarks designed only to start flame
threads.
-Mike
--
************************************************************************
Determining the sexual preference of dead playwrights, while politically
incorrect and academically irrelevant, is big fun.
-The Reduced Shakespeare Co.
************************************************************************
Eric E Tolle
>In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
>evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
>generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
>Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
>only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
So the basic complaint I'm getting from you is that your attention
span cannott handle a story that is so complex it requires more
then two hours. And of coarse your concept of drama is very
limited in that you cannott see a story that is not a simplistic
"good guy/bad guy" conflict. That I find a pity, as the majority
of epic literature is closed to you...
Sad really, but I suppose this is the sort of sophmoric attention-
deficit thinking that our school system is putting out....
>Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
Why spend a couple hundred hours reading Lord of the Rings when you
can read X-men? Why read War and Peace when you can read the Reader's
Digest condensed version of the latest Judith Krantz novel? Why
indeed put any intellectual work at all into your lifestyle?
>If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
In other words, "Why can't Babylon-5 be more like Three's Company
with it's emphasis on characters, humor, and Romance?
I'm sorry, but this sort of intellectual lazyness I have low tolerence
for.
Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the terminal room
screaming "The system's crashing! The system's crashing!"
-Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Paul A. Halasz
On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, Lora Crouse wrote:
>: I've been a sporatic Babylon 5 watcher, seen a few episodes every
>: season. But I'd like to relay one of the reasons why I really can't
>: get into the show.
>:
>: In the VAST majority of t.v. episodes and movies, good triumphs over
>: evil. The ending might be somewhat depressing, but still karma
>: generally prevails. I understand when I'm watching Executive
>: Decision, etc. that our heros will overcome the bad guys. But I
>: only have to spend 2 hours watching it.
>:
>: I simply have no faith that the Shadows/Psi Corp/"bad guys" might
>: actually prevail in the Babylon 5 universe. Sure every character
>: might die or something in the cause, but "good" win win out somehow..
>:
>: Why spend 5 years on a story that I know will end up so predictably?
>: If the show was more satisfying in each episode, there was more
>: emphasis on characters/humor/romance/etc. I might have a payoff. But,
>: in Babylon 5 the payoff is the overall story.
>
Que?
Exsqueeze me? Not enough emphasis on characters?
B5 is hugely involved in characters. Are you somehow missing out on this? You
said up there that you've only seen a few episodes every season and this might
be the explanation for your problem. If you managed to miss out on eps. like
"Comes the Inquisitor" and "Passage through Gethsemane" you missed out on what
were total examinations of character. To some extent the whole Galactic
conflagration that is gettin underway is simply a backdrop for our characters
to undergo crucible style changes within.
Point number two. Warning! I may sound a little harsh here! As to your comment
about the predictablility of good winning in most of the struggles against
bad/darkness/evil: Huh? Oh ya. We all like to watch/read/listen to dramatic
tales in which evil kicks the crap outta the good guys. That's so morally
redeeming. We learn all kinds of wonderful social lessons by telling stories
of the useless sacrifices of good versus bad. In particular this whole B5
story is very much a standard 'epic' saga and it's no big surprise to the
viewers that it'll end up with something to feel good about. If you wanna live
in the world that doesn't bother to promote the value of good vs evil, Bon
Voyage! The fact that evil has such a pervasive part to play in everything
that is going on in B5's world is plenty of warning/contrast about the nature
of good and bad.
It occurs to me that the shadows are far less significant as an 'evil' element
in B5's relevance to the audience than the Nightwatch and the Psi Corps
actually are. You seem to be missing the point that the series is actually
trying to make a comment or two about the times we live in (Otherwise why
bother telling such a story?). In sharp contrast to the relatively cheap
thrills that you are going to get from something like 'Executive Decision'
B5's storyline has alot of time to be thoughtful and make little comments
about life all along the way to your 'predictable ending'. Another poster
responded by pointing out how they were quite willing to savour the tale as it
was being dished out rather than satisfy a craving for a quick fix of slam
bam, thank you Arnie/Kurt/Sly/Jean Claude. I too will support him. Those
children of the television/MTV/Video clip generation who don't have a
significant attention span are welcome to go find reruns of the A-team/Knight
rider/The Six Million Dollar Man (in which every single episode was a victory
of 'so called' good vs 'UnAmerican' evil).
Paul H.
p.s. Londo, watching from a Centauri battle cruiser as the Narn Homeworld is
bombed into the stone age, his face a mask of pain as he realizes the full
consequences of his 'deal with the devil': If that's not character
developement what in the heck is it? A diversion from all the cool action
that's happening?
Paul C. H. Ho
Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think it
the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all true
fan...)
The most import ingredient of a successful soap is to get people hooked,
so they "want to see how it end". Once the viewers got hooked, the story
can go real slow...
Just watch 2 first season B5 episode, you know there will be a war. A
great war. An epical war. With more vision, dreams, prophesy and flash
forward than an astrologer can ever make, just to make sure the viewers
know it's coming and want to see how it end. A case in point: Do you
notice people are very serious about "Spoiler" in all B5's newsgroups?
That's because for a show like B5, if you know the ending, you will lost
interest in the show.
Watch 2 more from season 2, you know a little bit about the shadow. The
good guy are "preparing" for the war. (Can someone tell me what did they
do so far? Not much AFAIK.)
Now at the middle of season 3 the real shadow war still haven't started
yet...
Sound like day time soap to me.
About the science, I really don't think B5 is science fiction at all!
All the known alien race look and act like human. (With the possible
exception of the vorlon and shodow, but we still don't know enough to
know.) There are no alien culture, emotion, value, politic, religion and
superstition. They are all very similar to some human races (or races in
human history). Thing like soul, life force transfusion, possession and
the PSI stuff aren't my idea of science. Sure, some of the basic science
like Newton's law are observed most of the time, but I won't call Robin
Hood SF if the arrow fly correctly! With the emphasize on the
correctness of science, they still manage to make quite a few mistakes.
(True B5 fan say those are not mistake. To me they sound like trekkie.)
On the other hand, the handling of religion is great. While it's
impossible to prove the abstract concept of god is wrong. It is possible
to show all know religion are wrong! If all superstition are implanted
by vorlon. Religion are just vorlon worship. I love it, and I can't wait
to see how it end! (Oh no, I got hooked tooo.)
May be we should call B5 religion fiction or more correctly superstition
addiction ;-)
BTW, the local station is showing B5 at 5:00 PM. day time.
Cheers,
Paul
porkm...@usa.pipeline.com
Why am I on this group? To discuss the show. Good AND bad. If I didn't
have some fondness for the show, then I wouldn't spend an hour each week
watching it. Nor, would I spend time in this group. You state that if I'm
not impressed, I should leave you alone? The moderated group is that way,
pal. If you want to read nothing but compliments and Straczynski's
hyperbole, use it. Denebeim fought long and hard just for you.
>I didn't read rastB5 while JMS was here, but I can see why he found it
>intolerable to keep posting here -- without making any specific
references,
>you referred to his writing as "terrible", you called him lazy for
producing
>"assembly line television", and said he was motivated only by money (which
must
>be just _rolling_ in now that B5 dominates the ratings).
If you want specific references, there have been an abundant number of
examples already posted. Take a look at Queen of the Damned's posts, for
example. And where did I call him lazy? He's obviously hard working.
Anything but lazy. He's also prolific, but when compared to other prolific
writers/producers like David Kelley, extremely mediocre. And, at times,
terrible. And yes, he *is* motivated by money. Nothing wrong with that.
We all are. The longer the series continues, the more money he makes, not
only now, but in future royalties. And, his power within the industry will
rise accordingly. With as much intrusion the studio has clearly imposed on
his vision, point of view, and all aspects of production, if money and
power weren't important to him, he would have closed up shop and walked at
the end of the first season. What this has to do with your ratings
comment, I have no idea.
Sorry, but in my opinion, this show has some serious quality control
problems. Some have been studio-related, some have been due to the
shortcomings of the writer/executive producer himself. Again, if you don't
want to read about or discuss them, I suggest you take yourself to the
moderated group. Jay is anxiously waiting for your call.
-A.J. Tucker-
Bob Stout
> Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think it
> the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all true
> fan...)
I thought rastb5m was supposed to be troll- and flame-free...
-------------------------------------------------------------
MicroFirm: Down to the C in chips...
FidoNet 1:106/2000.6
Internet bobs...@neosoft.com
Home of SNIPPETS - Current release:
ftp.brokersys.com:/pub/snippets/snip9510.zip & snip9510.taz (.tar.Z)
juge.com:/c/file/c/snip9510.lzh
ftp.Coast.NET:/SimTel/msdos/c/snip9510.zip (& SimTel mirrors)
Bob Stout
butt on your way out!)
Leanan-Sidhe
[note: not a flame, just why i like b-5]
On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Paul C. H. Ho wrote:
> Possible spoilers...
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> Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think it
> the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all true
> fan...)
> The most import ingredient of a successful soap is to get people hooked,
> so they "want to see how it end". Once the viewers got hooked, the story
> can go real slow...
soap operas have characters coming and going and coming back. if you
skip a couple months, you're still in exactly the same place.
this is not so with b-5. dead characters are dead. personalities evolve
with the plot rather than having the characters personalities change to
create a plot as it is with soaps. if you miss a couple months of new
b-5, sure you know there's a big war coming. that, however looming it
may be, is usually only background. there is more plot and character
development in a single episode of b-5 than there is in a year of any soap.
your addiction theory, this is true of any show worth its salt. we don't
want to see spoilers because we want to be surprised. it's the same with
reading a really good book. you keep yourself from skipping to the end
to see what happens because it WILL ruin it for you. it's called a
plot. so what if you get a spoiler from a sitcom? there's no
development, it doesn't matter. it's like listening to someone spout
about how wonderful a movie you haven't seen is, like trying to watch a
movie with someone who's already seen it - there are endless parallels
here, and i don't think that any of them prove that b-5 is in any way
uninteresting. (not the word i want, but the best i can come up with at
the moment.)
yes, i adore b-5. no, alien life when we find it (or when it finds us)
will NOT be anything like the aliens we've seen on b-5, on trek, or on
any other show. but for now, we'll leave it up to our imaginations.
(btw, in the "too human" argument, we are somewhat limited in that we
must have humans play the aliens, and must have them speak the same
language almost 100% of the time or they will not be understood by the
viewers. that's just showbiz and what works.)
no, the war hasn't started yet. wars are in real life slow to escalate
into all out fighting. again, we hit upon the subject of plot. as it is
laid out, b-5 is your classic arc epic. the wars never start until the
third act, when tension finally reaches a point where it cannot be
avoided any more.
can you honestly call any daytime soap a true arc epic? have you ever
seen a soap with the intensity b-5 possesses? have you ever seen a soap
that you couldn't miss an episode of because you'll fall behind? ever
seen a soap where the entire universe as we know it is turned on its
proverbial head?
i like b-5 for all these reasons. i like b-5 because it's not something
the entire country watches (like melrose place. talk about soaps...) I
like b-5 because having brain is a prerequisite for understanding
everything that's going on. it makes you think.
Becky
li...@arh0248.urh.uiuc.edu
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~rlehmann
"I have ... a terrible need ... shall I say the word? ... of religion.
Then I go out at night and paint the stars."
-- Vincent van Gogh
lisa...@gnatnet.net
>In article <4jvljn$n...@news.wesleyan.edu>, lcr...@wesleyan.edu (Lora
>Crouse) wrote:
(snipped)
> Well, de gustibus and all that. To me, it looks like you're making
>assumptions about this show that are leading you to erroneous conclusions,
>but ultimatley it's a matter of taste. If you don't like it, you probably
>shouldn't waste your time watching it.
> Or, for that matter, going out of your way to tell the show's fans why
>you don't like it. For example: I wouldn't post "Why I hate Voyager" in
>alt.star-trek.voyager, myself, because I'd consider it a bit rude. Guess
>I'm just old-fashioned that way.
>*Insert smiley here.
>--
><*> ObQuote: "Most religions do not make men better, only warier."
> -- Elias Canetti
>======================================================================
><*> The_Doge of St. Louis
>Stage, screen, radio
>http://www.inlink.com/~thedoge/
Bravo! If one doesn't like B5 why on earth would one waste their time watching the program let alone waste their supposed
valuable time reading and posting to this ng?
I am also old fashioned in that I too believe that this posted complaint was truly rude. Maybe if enough of us call people on their
apparent lack of netiquette, who knows, it might just be catching enough that people in the real world will begin to have good
manners again.
Well, I can dream can't I? <*>
--
Lisa Shepherd
lisa...@gnatnet.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Once the avalanche has started,
it is much too late for the pebble to vote."
Ambassador Kosh Naranek (B5) <*>
ROY-Laurent Castellucci
want to see how it ends, doesn't that make every story ever told just
daytime soap opera by your argument?
LC
Innocent for Hire
Queen of the Damned
: So the basic complaint I'm getting from you is that your attention
: span cannott handle a story that is so complex it requires more
: then two hours. And of coarse your concept of drama is very
: limited in that you cannott see a story that is not a simplistic
: "good guy/bad guy" conflict. That I find a pity, as the majority
: of epic literature is closed to you...
The "majority of epic literature" is not half as over-written
and drawn out as Babylon 5. A standard hour of teevee is a
script about 45 pages long. Let's just go with 20 episodes
a year. That's 900 pages. Five years, *4,500* pages.
_Of *script*_. Nevermind the density (or lack thereof) compared
to a book page.
Which 4,500 page novels are you associating with "epic literature,"
exactly - and precisely what is it Babylon 5 has explored that's
not in, say, Star Wars (at a tenth the script length)?
Michelle Staloff
The writing is great! The people are realistic and evolve in the
course of the show. If I were to close my eyes, I would know who was
talking just by what they said. There are references to alien
culture and miscommunications. Come on- "nibbled to death by ducks"
Where else do you find this detail? Certainly not in science fiction.
I think the best thing is the realism. People die. I hate seeing
people I care about dying, but you can't deny the impact. The most
powerful episode was the one with the marines. They made sure we
knew and cared about those people, and then they killed them all.
And that panning across the bodies... I was even sorry to see the
man I didn't like dead. Not one familiar face survived.
What about the episode (sorry I don't know any of their names) where
the Psicore spy was discovered. Ivanova is my favorite character.
Here they were scanning all of the crew and everyone came up clean.
Only Susan was left. (I had forgotten about Talia.) In this show I
couldn't say, "well, she's a main character, she's safe." She wasn't
safe. Thank God it wasn't her!
I can't wait to see what else is in store.
Thank you for my favorite show!
-Elf-
Queen of the Damned
: Are we watching the same show?
: The writing is great! The people are realistic and evolve in the
: course of the show. If I were to close my eyes, I would know who was
: talking just by what they said. There are references to alien
: culture and miscommunications. Come on- "nibbled to death by ducks"
: Where else do you find this detail? Certainly not in science fiction.
Um, just out of curiousity, what detail is it that you have
in mind, exactly? What is the social structure of the Vorlon?
What are the institutions of authority among the Minbari? Is
the Grey Council responsible for overseeing every aspect of
Minbari life? What are the organs of state responsible for
carrying out their will? Who are the people backing Clark,
and why are they doing it? What do the Narn do for recreation?
I find the alien cultures in Babylon 5 to be about as well
developed as unexposed film still in a case. The Centauri
are further along than any of them: we have some vague idea
about their political system - an aristocratic republic with
a figurehead emperor. They have dueling socieites, and they
listen to opera. It's a start. The Narn and the Minbari
are only to the point of "someone/body is in charge." Oooh,
the detail! I'm in awe! About the Vorlon, we know abso-
fucking-lutely nothing. Even the EA is a strawman. Until
Point of No Return, we couldn't even agree that it was a
Constitution based government, and that the military officers
were sworn to protect that Constitution!
And you want to call these cultures *detailed*!?
Now, Dune was detailed. Foundation was detailed. 2001 was
detailed. Babylon 5 is not detailed. "Yeah, um, there are
these aliens, see. And some of them have been around a while,
see. And there are ambassadors, see. And some of them are
working with these other aliens that are older than anyone,
see, and some of them are working against. Don't ask me why,
just yet. I'll get to that when I feel like it."
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Why is it when a TV show has a decent sense of continuity its
: considered a "soap opera?"
Yeah! Everybody KNOWS it should be considered a "comic book!" <g>
- Elayne (rec.arts.comics.* regular)
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for more info about the official ()~~
Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal, available via ##
snail mail or free online! "I couldn't get you to believe my name ##
was Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, could I?" _##_
JD
Stout <bobs...@neosoft.com> writes:
>
>On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Paul C. H. Ho wrote:
>
>> Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think
it
>> the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all
true
>> fan...)
Why is it when a TV show has a decent sense of continuity its
considered a "soap opera?" Is it so bad to have a show where there is
such a thing as CONSEQUENCES? CAUSE AND EFFECT?
This is the kind of thinking that makes for boring, half assed shows on
TV (not naming names) where each episode is its own individual story,
building on nothing, going nowhere, having no character development,
and filling our minds with garbage... Is it so wrong to want to see
characters grow, learn, and evolve? Is it so wrong to want a
continuing storyline?
Matthew W Buckley
Babylon 5 by Queen of the Damned@mtcc
> Now, Dune was detailed. Foundation was detailed. 2001 was
> detailed. Babylon 5 is not detailed. "Yeah, um, there are
> these aliens, see. And some of them have been around a while,
> see. And there are ambassadors, see. And some of them are
> working with these other aliens that are older than anyone,
> see, and some of them are working against. Don't ask me why,
> just yet. I'll get to that when I feel like it."
>
Yeah, Foundation was detailed. It also was HUGE, as it included
just about everything Asimov wrote in the science fiction department.
(Asimov liked to connect his stories) Also, Foundation's societies
were all human, with the possible exception of the Solarians (Is that
the right one?). The total number of pages associated with the
Foundation universe is more than the 4500 pages I've heard about
somewhere else...
_ _ __
/ \/ \ | | | | |__| | | /__ Read it upside <*>
| | | \__|___|__ | |__ | | \ down!
| | | __ | __|___|__ | | |
| | __| | | | \ | | | ###################################
| | |__| | | | | \_/\_/ # Matthew Buckley: sau...@cmu.edu #
###################################
Homepage URL: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/sauron/www/
Peter Seebach
Bob Stout <bobs...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>I thought rastb5m was supposed to be troll- and flame-free...
That's the principle. Mostly, if your first post is reasonable, you're
auto-approved until you act up. This leaves us vulnerable to hostility, but
mostly keeps things controlled. A lot of the problem is that there are people
like me who are basically helpful and contributing members of the group, but
flame-happy. :)
-s
--
Peter Seebach - se...@solon.com - Copyright 1996 Peter Seebach.
C/Unix wizard -- C/Unix questions? Send mail for help. No, really!
FUCK the communications decency act. Goddamned government. [literally.]
The *other* C FAQ - http://www.solon.com/~seebs/c/c-iaq.html
ET
>In <Pine.BSD.3.91.960411...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Bob
>Stout <bobs...@neosoft.com> writes:
>>
>>On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Paul C. H. Ho wrote:
>>
>>> Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think
>it
>>> the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all
>true
>>> fan...)
This post made me laugh, as I have always referred to the Trek shows as
Deep Space 90210, and Melrose Space, given their penchant for endless,
sappy, shallow, emotionalism. Don't get me wrong- I would dearly love to
be able to watch these shows, as there has never been enough quality SFTV
around, but I just can't. Babylon 5, like the Star Wars and (even though
I was too young to articulate it at the time) TOS have all elicited the
same response from me: THIS is the show/movie I've been dreaming of all
my life! The best I ever got even from STTNG was: Please, please be
watchable. Pretty please?
ET
Paul Ho
>
> *little itty bitty spoilers that are hardly worth mentioning*
> [note: not a flame, just why i like b-5]
Gee, I don't hate B5, that was a reply to someone who hate B5. I follow b5
since 93 from the alt.tv.b5 group. Months before the pilot...
> On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Paul C. H. Ho wrote:
>
> > Possible spoilers...
> > Look B5 is day time soap in space. Some people get hooked and think it
> > the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all true
> > fan...)
> > The most import ingredient of a successful soap is to get people hooked,
> > so they "want to see how it end". Once the viewers got hooked, the story
> > can go real slow...
>
> soap operas have characters coming and going and coming back. if you
B5 has its share of characters coming and going too.
> skip a couple months, you're still in exactly the same place.
The B5 arc don't move that much too.
> this is not so with b-5. dead characters are dead. personalities evolve
> with the plot rather than having the characters personalities change to
> create a plot as it is with soaps. if you miss a couple months of new
> b-5, sure you know there's a big war coming. that, however looming it
> may be, is usually only background. there is more plot and character
> development in a single episode of b-5 than there is in a year of any soap.
Tell me why Delenn is having romance with Sheridan not Sinclair?
In any show, we, the fan, always want the lead couple to get married (like
X-files, even ER) But the change from Sinclair to Sheridan ruin it. Now to
me, *more than anyother show*, B5 is all about characters personalities
change to fit the plot. The 5 years long plot.
What you said was what B5 promise to be in 1993, it didn't quite turn out
that way. Sure a real war took years to build up, but you don't have to spend
years to tell the story.
> your addiction theory, this is true of any show worth its salt. we don't
> want to see spoilers because we want to be surprised. it's the same with
> reading a really good book. you keep yourself from skipping to the end
My idea of a good book can be read many time. You know the plot, and you
still want to read it.
[Some text deleted, my news server don't like quote!]
> yes, i adore b-5. no, alien life when we find it (or when it finds us)
> will NOT be anything like the aliens we've seen on b-5, on trek, or on
> any other show. but for now, we'll leave it up to our imaginations.
> (btw, in the "too human" argument, we are somewhat limited in that we
> must have humans play the aliens, and must have them speak the same
> language almost 100% of the time or they will not be understood by the
> viewers. that's just showbiz and what works.)
I was talking about culture etc. read my original post again.
> no, the war hasn't started yet. wars are in real life slow to escalate
> into all out fighting. again, we hit upon the subject of plot. as it is
> laid out, b-5 is your classic arc epic. the wars never start until the
> third act, when tension finally reaches a point where it cannot be
> avoided any more.
I real life, you don't know there will be war 3 years down the road. I don't
believe in vision or dreams. Not in a SF or real life. Those are all design
to get you hooked! Talking about escalation, in B5, our hero were *prepare
for war* almost since day one. What do you think the White Star is? Peace
keeper? In fact, I can't recall any effort to make peace at all! If our heros
use an unarmed ship to find the shadow and have a peace talk, that would be
something. Come to think of it, that would have been a nice way to kill off
Sinclair or Hague. Die trying for peace, what a hero! But it's too late now.
> can you honestly call any daytime soap a true arc epic? have you ever
> seen a soap with the intensity b-5 possesses? have you ever seen a soap
> that you couldn't miss an episode of because you'll fall behind? ever
> seen a soap where the entire universe as we know it is turned on its
> proverbial head?
Sorry, I don't watch soap, B5 is the soapiest show I watch ;-)
> i like b-5 for all these reasons. i like b-5 because it's not something
> the entire country watches (like melrose place. talk about soaps...) I
> like b-5 because having brain is a prerequisite for understanding
> everything that's going on. it makes you think.
I watch it because I what to see how it end!
It was nice "talking" to you, unlike some other pointless flame reply, you do
have a point. We just have to agree to disagree.
Cheers,
Paul
Robert Link
>Leanan-Sidhe wrote:
>>
>
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Paul C. H. Ho wrote:
>>
>> > Possible spoilers...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> soap operas have characters coming and going and coming back. if you
>
>B5 has its share of characters coming and going too.
>
That's not what he meant. In many soaps characters appear and
disappear with only the flimsiest of excuses. ``Death'' is seldom
permanent, and so it completely loses its impact. In b5, when a
character leaves there is a reason for it; when a character dies it is
for keeps.
>> skip a couple months, you're still in exactly the same place.
>
>The B5 arc don't move that much too.
>
In the past several months we have seen the destruction of a major
power, civil wars erupting in all of the other major governments,
brushfire wars amongst the non-aligned worlds, a coup d'etat on earth,
and a declaration of independence on b5. If this does not constitute
``moving the arc,'' then, pray tell, what does?
>> this is not so with b-5. dead characters are dead. personalities evolve
>> with the plot rather than having the characters personalities change to
>> create a plot as it is with soaps. if you miss a couple months of new
>> b-5, sure you know there's a big war coming. that, however looming it
>> may be, is usually only background. there is more plot and character
>> development in a single episode of b-5 than there is in a year of any soap.
>
>Tell me why Delenn is having romance with Sheridan not Sinclair?
>In any show, we, the fan, always want the lead couple to get married (like
>X-files, even ER) But the change from Sinclair to Sheridan ruin it. Now to
>me, *more than anyother show*, B5 is all about characters personalities
>change to fit the plot. The 5 years long plot.
>
Was there any reason to expect a romance with Sinclair? Sinclair
already had a woman, as I recall. There was the `marriage' aspect of
the rebirth ceremony, but much of that was speculation by the other
characters. What Delenn intended was never revealed. Perhaps it will
be at some point in the future. Perhaps Delenn herself had a change
of heart when Sinclair was transferred away. I can tell you from
experience that ``out of sight, out of mind'' is sometimes the way
people feel.
>What you said was what B5 promise to be in 1993, it didn't quite turn out
>that way. Sure a real war took years to build up, but you don't have to spend
>years to tell the story.
>
*Shrug*. To each his own, I guess. To me many of the non-arc
episodes are every bit as worthwhile as the arc episodes. Jms has
said that this is not a story about a war; it is a story about people.
The war is one of the things that happens to them, and they have to
deal with it, but it is not the only thing. The fact is that even
during an intense conflict the factors that define the people in the
conflict are the things that occur during the quiet times. You cannot
truly understand their actions during the tense moments without seeing
at least some of the personal moments that define the characters. Not
only does B5 give us those moments (which make the action all the more
powerful), but it generally manages to work in some good sci-fi along
the way. For instance, Exogenesis was not an arc episode, but it was
still a worthy sci-fi story.
>> your addiction theory, this is true of any show worth its salt. we don't
>> want to see spoilers because we want to be surprised. it's the same with
>> reading a really good book. you keep yourself from skipping to the end
>
>My idea of a good book can be read many time. You know the plot, and you
>still want to read it.
>
Yeah, but no other time is quite like the first time.
>
>> yes, i adore b-5. no, alien life when we find it (or when it finds us)
>> will NOT be anything like the aliens we've seen on b-5, on trek, or on
>> any other show. but for now, we'll leave it up to our imaginations.
>> (btw, in the "too human" argument, we are somewhat limited in that we
>> must have humans play the aliens, and must have them speak the same
>> language almost 100% of the time or they will not be understood by the
>> viewers. that's just showbiz and what works.)
>
>I was talking about culture etc. read my original post again.
>
Frankly, sci-fi aliens are not really intended to be an accurate
depiction of what life on other worlds might be like. They are, in
many cases, a device for getting us to step back and look at ourselves
from an outsider's point of view. The story of
>> no, the war hasn't started yet. wars are in real life slow to escalate
>> into all out fighting. again, we hit upon the subject of plot. as it is
>> laid out, b-5 is your classic arc epic. the wars never start until the
>> third act, when tension finally reaches a point where it cannot be
>> avoided any more.
>
>I real life, you don't know there will be war 3 years down the road.
Don't you? Take a look at history sometime.
>I don't
>believe in vision or dreams. Not in a SF or real life.
I don't believe in hyperspace or tachyons. Nevertheless, it doesn't
spoil my enjoyment of the show.
>Those are all design
>to get you hooked! Talking about escalation, in B5, our hero were *prepare
>for war* almost since day one. What do you think the White Star is? Peace
>keeper? In fact, I can't recall any effort to make peace at all! If our heros
>use an unarmed ship to find the shadow and have a peace talk, that would be
>something. Come to think of it, that would have been a nice way to kill off
>Sinclair or Hague. Die trying for peace, what a hero! But it's too late now.
>
The White Star didn't show up until the third season. This is hardly
``day one.'' Attempting to make peace has been a pervasive theme in
the show. Attempts were made to stop the conflict between the
Centauri and the Narn; attempts were made to settle things with Earth
peacefully; attempts were made to stop many of the other conflicts
that have broken out. The attempts have failed, as sometimes happens
(as has happened historically), largely due to the agents of the
Shadows sowing the seeds of discord.
I will grant you that nobody has tried to send an emissary of peace to
talk to the Shadows, after their destruction of an unarmed
archaeological team, it is doubtful that they would honor a flag of
truce. There is heroism, and there is stupidity; you don't have to be
a rocket scientist to figure out which is which in this case.
Incidentally, the Shadows have not exactly made any sort of open
contact which would facilitate peace negotiations. For instance, it
is not even clear that Haig ever knew of the existence of the
Shadows. And, I won't even begin to discuss the `peace' that Clarke's
cronies have concocted with the Shadows.
The b5 story line all hangs together. Characters have motivations,
which change as they grow. Actions have consequences, and difficult
choices have to be made. These are not typical features in soap
operas.
--
-r | That is not dead which can eternal lie,
| And with strange aeons even death may die.
Mark Sulkowski
> JD (jdu...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Why is it when a TV show has a decent sense of continuity its
> : considered a "soap opera?"
>
Hey! That's "graphic novel" to you. :)
Mark S.
Rhonda Jones
>
it
>> the best TV show with good science and great acting. (just like all
true
>> fan...)
>
>
>MicroFirm: Down to the C in chips...
>FidoNet 1:106/2000.6
>Internet bobs...@neosoft.com
>Home of SNIPPETS - Current release:
> ftp.brokersys.com:/pub/snippets/snip9510.zip & snip9510.taz
(.tar.Z)
> juge.com:/c/file/c/snip9510.lzh
> ftp.Coast.NET:/SimTel/msdos/c/snip9510.zip (& SimTel mirrors)
>
when compared to some other efforts. (In space and out.) I don't have
any idea of WHAT folks are looking for in good sf tv. If all of this
jerks your 'nads so much go and find some books to read! I happen to
enjoy the complex plot lines and the rather concrete five-year plan.
Matthew Aznoe
really enjoyed the complex plot arc and the general concept of the show,
something about B5 was bothering me. Recently, I have heard several
comments in this newsgroup that have made me realize what it is.
Though the main arc and ongoing plot are great, the actual implementation
of the episodes are very poorly done. Instead of showing us the story,
JMS TELLS us the story. I get the feeling as I watch the show that he is
telling me "Sheridan is sad now" instead of showing me that he is upset.
Too often a scene that could be very powerful emotionally is ruined by
too much talking and not enough cinematography. Instead of telling me
how the character is feeling, SHOW me how they feel. I think JMS needs
to learn the value of silence. Would the scene in Braveheart where
William Wallace discovers that the Bruce has betrayed him on the battlefield
have been nearly as powerful as it was if William Wallace had started blurting
out "How could have done this to me and everyone. I am very confused now and
at a loss for words. I don't know what to say ... etc"?
Babylon 5 has a lot of potential. Its story has great complexities in
the overall plot, and I like knowing that ALL of the characters are
expendable in the grand scheme of things. However, in order for this
show to be great, JMS needs to rethink his directing strategies and start
showing us the story rather than just telling a story.
*****************************************************************
* I believe in de-evolution: * Matthew Aznoe *
* God made the world perfect and its * az...@cs.montana.edu *
* been going downhill ever since. *************************
* *
* Genesis 1 Second Law of Thermodynamics *
*****************************************************************
The views expressed above are entirely my own -- however, if you wish
to share them, that is your prerogative.
Queen of the Damned
: Yeah, Foundation was detailed. It also was HUGE, as it included
: just about everything Asimov wrote in the science fiction department.
: (Asimov liked to connect his stories) Also, Foundation's societies
: were all human, with the possible exception of the Solarians (Is that
: the right one?). The total number of pages associated with the
: Foundation universe is more than the 4500 pages I've heard about
: somewhere else...
Oh, *really*? How precious. I thought the three (or was it
four) books in the Foundation series read rather nicely as
three (or four) books in a series, and did not depend upon
having read Asimov's entire body of work. The three (or was
it four) books had a length of what?... six hundred pages?
Seven hundred pages? Or are you seriously suggesting that
Babylon 5 is somehow equivalent to the sum total output
of perhaps *the* foremost author in science fiction? And
as far as "alien" is concerned, with the exception of the
Vorlon and the Shadows, all of Babylon 5's "aliens" are
humans in funny makeup, and no, I am not referring to the
actors (Star Trek suffers rather badly from this, as well -
though I do think the Vulcans transcend, and ironically, they
involve some of the least ridiculous makeup). As to the
Vorlon and Shadows being particularly "developed" - yeah,
right. The Shadows are fascinating by virtue of their
wicked-cool ships. The Vorlon are just kind of there.
Monica Granbois
>Lora Crouse wrote:
>>
>> w...@essc.psu.edu (Bill Capehart) wrote:
>-snip-
>> >Why read any historical novel, then? You know what's going to happen
>> >in the large scheme. Why waste your time?
>>
>> I made this point in my original post. You usually spend only a
>> number of fairly consecutive hours on novels. Babylon 5 takes many
>> hours and it runs over years. I don't really know how to define this
>> genre. I've heard it compared to a novel, but don't think that's
>> really accurate. It's just too damn long to be even the longest of
>> novels, not just for the number of t.v. hours it takes up, but for for
>> the time span they are given out over. This makes a difference, to
>> me, in my willingness to put up w/ predictable story endings.
>
>> Lora
Well, maybe not a single novel, more like a series. Many epics in
science fiction and fantasy run several years and several books. For
instances, Terry Brooks "Shannarra" series. "The Sword of Shannarra" was
written in the 1970s, and a new one just came out. Other examples are Robert
Jordan and David Eddings, both have long series that have taken years to
tell and are still telling.
This method of story telling may not be to everyones taste, but I enjoy
the speculation and discussion that takes place on and off line. I like
watching a show, that is not resolved in an hour, and which has an overall
plot developing.
I do agree in a sense, that 5 years is a long time. I do not tape the
shows, so most episodes I see only once. Trying to remeber what happened 3
years ago in some TV show is pretty well impossible for me. If the show
goes into syndication then perhaps the show will be more enjoyable to some
since people will be able to see the plot develop over a shorter time period.
-Monica-
--
'Oh, there is always choice. We say there is no choice only to
comfort ourselves with the decisions we have already made. If
you understand that, there's hope. If not...'-Lady Morella, B5
* Things to be happy for no.1: That elephant's don't fly. :-) *
Patrick Carey
Matthew Aznoe wrote:
>
> Though the main arc and ongoing plot are great, the actual implementation
> of the episodes are very poorly done. Instead of showing us the story,
> JMS TELLS us the story. I get the feeling as I watch the show that he is
> telling me "Sheridan is sad now" instead of showing me that he is upset.
> Too often a scene that could be very powerful emotionally is ruined by
> too much talking and not enough cinematography. Instead of telling me
> how the character is feeling, SHOW me how they feel. I think JMS needs
> to learn the value of silence.
Have you watched "Severed Dreams" yet? When Sheridan learns that Earth Force
is coming, his reaction is shown beautifully - not told. When Ivanova
leaves to join the Star Furies, she and Sheridan exchange a look that
says it all. I don't think your argument is valid in the slightest.
B5 is not without its flaws, but this is not one of them.
Patrick
Queen of the Damned
: I do agree in a sense, that 5 years is a long time. I do not tape the
: shows, so most episodes I see only once. Trying to remeber what happened 3
: years ago in some TV show is pretty well impossible for me. If the show
: goes into syndication then perhaps the show will be more enjoyable to some
: since people will be able to see the plot develop over a shorter time period.
It is definitely true that the rerun breaks *really* *really*
*really* slow things down. The huge flamewar we had over what
Sheridan should have done to the NightWatch did not star until
a week after Point of No Return. Many of the issues raised would
have been settled before they were argued about, particularly the
foundation of the EA government, and Sheridan's "sworn duty."
Long breaks between episodes of a long story multiply the problem
tremendously.
Matthew W Buckley
Babylon 5 by Queen of the Damned@mtcc
>
> four) books in the Foundation series read rather nicely as
> three (or four) books in a series, and did not depend upon
> having read Asimov's entire body of work. The three (or was
> it four) books had a length of what?... six hundred pages?
Foundation
Foundation and Empire
Second Foundation
Foundation's Edge
Foundation and Earth
Prelude to Foundation
Forward the Foundation
Those are the ones with 'Foundation' in the title. The R. Daneel Olivaw
books also weave into the Foundation tapestry, as do some of the other
Robot stories. I've read at least one short story dealing with the reason
the Earth is not in the Foundation.
And if you say that since these don't count as Foundation, then you
are missing out on some of the joy of Asimov's work. Similar to watching
only the arc episodes of B5, and missing the nuances and charactarization
which occurs in the rest of the series.
Hernan Espinoza
<snip> On the lack of details about the B5 governments/cultures
Now, I would also like to see more details about the alien
(heck, Earth, too) governments and cultures. However, you need to
stop and take a perspective check..
>Now, Dune was detailed. Foundation was detailed. 2001 was
>detailed. Babylon 5 is not detailed. "Yeah, um, there are
Apples and Oranges.
DUNE, Foundation, and 2001 are *BOOKS* each of which
would be equivalent to hundreds of hours of screen time if
done in full detail. Of course they are more detailed.
A somewhat more proper comparison would be between
the movies (DUNE and 2001) and B5 in terms of detail. (I
know, this is not entirely fair, either, but it is closer)
If you had not read the books, how much could you glean
about the governments and cultures involved from the movies?
Think about this. What is the structure of the
Vulcan gov't (TV show only)? How much power does the
Federation Council hold? Starfleet? The Klingon High
Council? Why a council? What happened to the last REAL
emperor? What's the Romulan Gov't look like? SPACE:A&B,
what's the government look like exactly?
If B5 seems to lack detail, consider other shows.
Besides, try to remember that too much detail can hurt
a story worse than too little. It can bog down the narrative
pacing and obscure the story itself. Details are nice, but the story
is paramount. YMMV. Thanks for the post! -Hernan
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: Don't get me wrong- I would dearly love to
: around, but I just can't. Babylon 5, like the Star Wars and (even though
: I was too young to articulate it at the time) TOS have all elicited the
: same response from me: THIS is the show/movie I've been dreaming of all
: my life! The best I ever got even from STTNG was: Please, please be
: watchable. Pretty please?
Heh - reminds me of the old SIMPSONS line, where Homer Simpson is
practically screaming at the television set while watching some so-called
sitcom, "Be funny!" (Which I admit I still do with far too many shows...)
- Elayne
as...@orion.alaska.edu
> On Apr 10, 1996 21:18:33 in article <Re: Why I Hate Babylon 5>, 'Michael
> Benedetto <miben...@vassar.edu>' wrote:
[stuff deleted]
>>Well, why the hell are you on this group? If you aren't impressed, leave
> us
>>alone. I'm not a drooling adulator, but I think JMS is talented and I read
>
>>rastB5 to discuss the intricasies of his story. You obviously aren't
> interested
>>in doing so, so I can only assume that you want to piss off everyone who
> is.
>>You've done a wonderful job.
>
>
> Why am I on this group? To discuss the show. Good AND bad. If I didn't
> have some fondness for the show, then I wouldn't spend an hour each week
> watching it. Nor, would I spend time in this group. You state that if I'm
> not impressed, I should leave you alone? The moderated group is that way,
> pal. If you want to read nothing but compliments and Straczynski's
> hyperbole, use it. Denebeim fought long and hard just for you.
Wrong. There have been plenty of critical opinions posted to rastb5.mod.
The difference is that they're civil, unlike many (but not all) here.
[more stuff deleted]
-Matt Doogan
Chris Morton
>If you want specific references, there have been an abundant number of
>examples already posted. Take a look at Queen of the Damned's posts, for
>example. And where did I call him lazy? He's obviously hard working.
I've read her posts. They were to put it charitably, uncomplicated.
Were the philosophy outlined therein adhered to by JMS, B5 would be
little more than a '70s Kung Fu movie set in space.
Sorry, I just got cable ***JUST*** so that I could watch B5 in a small
town in NW Ohio.
The idea that I'd get up to turn the TV on to watch something as
pathetically banal and one dimensional (as her alternative scenarios
were) much less go to considerable expense is laughable.
The episode was brilliant and EASILY justified my choice to dip into
limited resources to see the series.
If people can't handle complex ideas and emotions, there's always
Mexican female wrestler videos....
"Take your weapons and stick them up your sloppy buggered
arsehole..you faggot." - Robin Muskett <mus...@enterprise.net>
Chris Morton
>I think the best thing is the realism. People die. I hate seeing
>people I care about dying, but you can't deny the impact. The most
>powerful episode was the one with the marines. They made sure we
>knew and cared about those people, and then they killed them all.
>And that panning across the bodies... I was even sorry to see the
>man I didn't like dead. Not one familiar face survived.
Actually that was one of the worst episodes. Not because characters
died, but because they never really lived. They were little more than
cardboard cutouts.
Contrast that with the characters and their portrayals in "Severed".
There was real emotion, in particular real despair portrayed. I've
talked to people who were in the defense of the Philippines in 1942,
and the same resignation and defiance is in them.
I can't speak too highly of the episode. The "marine" episode only
draws a starker contrast.
Chris Morton
>Michelle Staloff (the-m...@msn.com) wrote:
>: Are we watching the same show?
>: The writing is great! The people are realistic and evolve in the
>: course of the show. If I were to close my eyes, I would know who was
>: talking just by what they said. There are references to alien
>: culture and miscommunications. Come on- "nibbled to death by ducks"
>: Where else do you find this detail? Certainly not in science fiction.
>Um, just out of curiousity, what detail is it that you have
>in mind, exactly? What is the social structure of the Vorlon?
>What are the institutions of authority among the Minbari? Is
>the Grey Council responsible for overseeing every aspect of
>Minbari life? What are the organs of state responsible for
>carrying out their will? Who are the people backing Clark,
>and why are they doing it? What do the Narn do for recreation?
In "War and Peace", on what page(s) are the TO&E of the Russian and
French armies described?
Where does it state the rate of volley fire expected of a Russian line
infantry regiment?
Where does it say what shoe size Napoleon wears?
If that's the best you can do for criticism, JMS has done very well
indeed.
>I find the alien cultures in Babylon 5 to be about as well
>developed as unexposed film still in a case. The Centauri
Why, because you don't get the equivalent of a 600 level sociology
class in an hour minus commercials? Characters have developed over
the LENGTH of the run of the show. Somebody else mentioned attention
span... maybe you didn't notice.
Weaver
I think B5 is done nearly perfectly. Remember Dune and 2001 were both
movies and foundation was a giant series of books by one of the best
Sci-fi authors ever.
But a problem i found with 2001, is that actually it would continue to
lose my interest as it bogged down the whole story-line with too much
detail. This only happened in a few parts, not all.
B5 only releases detail as its needed, or will be needed. If JMS began
writing nothing but detail eventually we'd become confused about what was
important and what wasn't.
But I thing B5's major advantage over Space A&B and Startrek, is that its
a story. While the other two are pretty much basic shows. I'm not saying
they're bad. I like Voyager, but most of the time what happens in one
episode has nothing to do with another. As where in B5 nearly EVERYTHING
is tied together somehow
For me B5 is just one long Movie. And I like long movies (Shogun, Stand,
Braveheart)
Weave
stark...@truemedia.com
do you have the same lack of intrest in your life? We all know that it will
end in death but the fun part is getting there. As for your argument that
B5 will end predictably: who said we are even on the right side in this war?
Just because it is from our point of veiw doesnt mean anything. Das Boot was
writted by the leader of "the only race brave enough to see what was right and
do it" Nobody sits down and thinks, "well lets see what I can do to get cast
into the hottest pit of hell when I die." There IS no right and wrong in war.
Only death and destruction for ones cause.
Starkiller
Matthew W Buckley
Babylon 5 by Chris Mor...@nwohio.com
> Why, because you don't get the equivalent of a 600 level sociology
> class in an hour minus commercials? Characters have developed over
> the LENGTH of the run of the show. Somebody else mentioned attention
> span... maybe you didn't notice.
>
Forgot.
Queen of the Damned
: Babylon 5 by Queen of the Damned@mtcc
: > Oh, *really*? How precious. I thought the three (or was it
: > four) books in the Foundation series read rather nicely as
: > three (or four) books in a series, and did not depend upon
: > having read Asimov's entire body of work. The three (or was
: > it four) books had a length of what?... six hundred pages?
: Foundation
: Foundation and Empire
: Second Foundation
: Foundation's Edge
: Foundation and Earth
: Prelude to Foundation
: Forward the Foundation
: Those are the ones with 'Foundation' in the title.
Oh, pooh. Three, four, or seven. I'm off by six hundred pages.
Let's see now, it took you much past Foundation to get a grasp
of the social, political, and technical aspects of the Foundation
universe, did it? That might explain why you appear to be serious
in suggesting that Asimov needed 4,500 pages to develop a world
(though I'm more than a wee bit skeptical even if we include
*everything*, Asimov would prove to have babbled on quite so
much).
Are you further really suggesting that, after 2,200 pages,
Babylon 5 is "half" as well developed as the Foundation
universe?
Queen of the Damned
: porkm...@usa.pipeline.com() wrote:
: I've read her posts. They were to put it charitably, uncomplicated.
: Were the philosophy outlined therein adhered to by JMS, B5 would be
: little more than a '70s Kung Fu movie set in space.
Uh-huh. For the record, I'm a he. I'm not sure which ideas
you're thinking of. If you are seriously suggesting that
Ivanova firing on the ConTiki punch bowl is somehow less
complicated than that beyond-stupid-fucking second grade
prank ("Uhhuh, I bet you Ancients are just a bunch of
scaredy cats, uhhuh"), then allow me to take this opportunity
to suggest that you probably shouldn't venture much above
the '70s Kung Fu genre to begin with. Or perhaps you're
of the opinion that crying about the chain of command is
somehow less complicated than spacing the fascists. In
that case, I am quite *sure* that even '70s Kung Fu flicks
are just a little too intellectual for your tastes.
Queen of the Damned
: x...@mtcc.com (Queen of the Damned) wrote:
: >Um, just out of curiousity, what detail is it that you have
: >in mind, exactly? What is the social structure of the Vorlon?
: >What are the institutions of authority among the Minbari? Is
: >the Grey Council responsible for overseeing every aspect of
: >Minbari life? What are the organs of state responsible for
: >carrying out their will? Who are the people backing Clark,
: >and why are they doing it? What do the Narn do for recreation?
: In "War and Peace", on what page(s) are the TO&E of the Russian and
: French armies described?
[etc]
Uh-huh. A somewhat more parallel question, of course, would
be "Which pages in War and Peace are devoted to an investigation
of Russian society." The answer being, "most."
: >I find the alien cultures in Babylon 5 to be about as well
: >developed as unexposed film still in a case. The Centauri
: Why, because you don't get the equivalent of a 600 level sociology
: class in an hour minus commercials?
I vaguely recall civics being covered somewhere in, oh,
junior high. The basics, mind you. I wouldn't want to burden
your progress with too much detail, but simple things like
"division of power, which branch does what." For example,
is Delenn in the "executive" branch? Is she beholden to an
elected body? Minor details, to be sure.
As you appear to be of the opinion that the Minbari, say,
are "well developed," why don't you share with the class
what you know about them?
: "Take your weapons and stick them up your sloppy buggered
: arsehole..you faggot." - Robin Muskett <mus...@enterprise.net>
I see you are a student of Truly Great Minds.
Matthew W Buckley
Babylon 5 by Queen of the Damned@mtcc
>
> of the social, political, and technical aspects of the Foundation
> universe, did it? That might explain why you appear to be serious
Well, since new things were introduced in each book, and the political
structure and technology changed constantly, I'd have to say yes.
Patrick Carey
>
> Are you further really suggesting that, after 2,200 pages,
> Babylon 5 is "half" as well developed as the Foundation
> universe?
>
> --
> Queen of the Damned---x@mtcc.com---http://www.mtcc.com/~x/
Comparing any written work to a television program in terms of page count is an exercise in stupidity. For
example in the Foundation series, Asimov could spend three paragraphs describing the social/political
structure of the Foundation and not slow up his novel one bit. How would you do that in B5? Would you have
Sheridan spent 5 minutes talking to Garibaldi about the political structure on Earth - stuff that Garibaldi
supposedly already knows? Pretty lame.
A television program will NEVER be able to match the written word in terms of exposition.
Patrick
Frank Alejano
: Matthew W Buckley (sau...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Oh, pooh. Three, four, or seven. I'm off by six hundred pages.
: Let's see now, it took you much past Foundation to get a grasp
: of the social, political, and technical aspects of the Foundation
: universe, did it? That might explain why you appear to be serious
: in suggesting that Asimov needed 4,500 pages to develop a world
: (though I'm more than a wee bit skeptical even if we include
: *everything*, Asimov would prove to have babbled on quite so
: much).
: Are you further really suggesting that, after 2,200 pages,
: Babylon 5 is "half" as well developed as the Foundation
: universe?
The problem here is that the "lack of alien culture" applies to every
SF show to date (not to mention movie).
Star Trek: Little, if any, actual discussion of government, cultures, etc.
Most of what they do bring out is for plotline. Vulcans
are kinda neat, but I know more about Centauri than I do
about Vulcan culture.
Space above/beyond: Governement? What Government?
Star Wars: Just how the hell did Palpatine grab control anyway? What
the hell are the clone wars? How did vader and palpatine
kill off all the jedi anyway?
I think saying B5 has little alien development is, in some frames of reference,
correct. But I also think that they've done about as good a job as anyone else.
Frank
Queen of the Damned
: Comparing any written work to a television program in terms of page
: count is an exercise in stupidity. For example in the Foundation
: series, Asimov could spend three paragraphs describing the social/political
: structure of the Foundation and not slow up his novel one bit. How would
: you do that in B5? Would you have Sheridan spent 5 minutes talking to
: Garibaldi about the political structure on Earth - stuff that Garibaldi
: supposedly already knows? Pretty lame.
Try: instead of wasting five minutes on an absurdly overblown
staff meeting between the Conspiracy of Light and an doctor,
we see Clark (what an idea) in a staff meeting where the
tenuous political situation of excavating a Shadow ship on
Ganymede is the backdrop. "We haven't informed the Senate
Science and Technology Committee." "Who the fuck cares about
the SSTC?" "PsiCorps should have been involved, we don't know
anything about these ships" "PsiCorps may be working with the
enemy." "We have no military capital in the area." "I don't
trust our captains to keep this quiet." "What if something
goes wrong." "Don't let anything go wrong." "Something
went wrong on Mars."
Back on Babylon 5, the doctor turns to Sheridan and says,
"Captain, you've got to stop Clark. He's excavating
another of those ships." "What ships?" "The ones ISN
broadcast." "*Another*?" "Yes. We found one on Mars."
Cut to the beautiful Mars sequence - far and away the
best thing about Messages from Earth. "Where's the second
ship?" "Ganymede."
How about the strategic planning session for the attack
on Babylon 5? The military doesn't want to do it. Clark
wants to do it. "Mr. President, we do not have adequate
intelligence to guarantee success." "No time." "Alien
reaction to the attack is unpredictable." "Assume the
worst, plan for it, and _get me that station_." "The
worst is direct Minbari intervention on Sheridan's
behalf." "Then you'll have to deal with the Minbari.
I want that station. Is that clear?" "Yes, Mr.
President."
Ta da! Exposition *with* *objectives*. It is *ABSURD*
that we have not seen President Clark in action taking
over the EA government. Why is he doing it? Is he a
man of commanding presence? Who is he working with?
Who is he working against? We're not talking about some
trivial little plot development here. He is a character
of action - one of the very few in the whole goddam series
who has actually *accomplished* anything. He's taken over
a government - the Earth government, and we humans, quelle
shock, are the "key" - and we don't know piss about him!
The suggestion that the filmic medium cannot convey
such basic information is simply bullshit.
--
Queen of the Damned---x@mtcc.com---http://www.mtcc.com/~x/
Splat X Splat
*X*