Garibaldi a Traitor? (spoilers)
FABIO CESAR RIVERA
Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
Fabio.
John Murray
After Mr. G. passed out in the cell in WEHtmG, the being with the gas
mask that entered wore what [just barely] appeared to be a PSI Corps
pin. It was very indistinct, but after reviewing that part a dozen
times, there was something there and what else could it have been? I
fear our Mr. G. may now have an "implanted" personality, courtsey of
the PSI Corps, waiting for the correct thought sequence to activate
it.
John Murray
j...@io.com
Ken Meyerkorth
SPOILER SPACE
Almost there
John Murray wrote:
> >
> After Mr. G. passed out in the cell in WEHtmG, the being with the gas
> mask that entered wore what [just barely] appeared to be a PSI Corps
> pin. It was very indistinct, but after reviewing that part a dozen
> times, there was something there and what else could it have been?
I don't think the pin was PsiCorps. Possibly a captured Psi cop
instead? A Shadow pin?
> I fear our Mr. G. may now have an "implanted" personality, courtsey of
> the PSI Corps, waiting for the correct thought sequence to activate
> it.
When G got up from the med lab table, when Sheridan returned, I expected
to see surgical marks on the back of his neck or head from a Shadow
implant, like Sheridan's wife had. Now, however, I'm not exactly sure
what happened. An implanted personality waiting for activation? Or,
was it truly the Shadows that captured him and not a secret Psi Corps
base that used captured Shadow technology? (Granted that was Morden's
voice heard in the room, but, was it really?) No true answers yet.
Ken M
----
"How can drugs be illegal when possession is 9/10ths of the law?"
Hunter S. Thompson
Michael Stegbauer
FABIO CESAR RIVERA wrote:
>
> Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
> under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
> controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
> in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
>
I'm making an Official Prediction here:
I don't think so. Garibaldi's reactions were entirely understandable
for what he'd been through. His reaction to Zack was "Is it
really Zack? Or is it Psicorp Memorex?" His reaction to Lorien was
that of a man who's really tired of it all, just like he said.
I think JMS is just playing around.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"I'm the baby, gotta love me" - Baby Sinclair, "Dinosaurs"
stegbau...@tandem.com
______________________________________________________________________________
Michael Benedetti
In article <575l67$l...@news.csus.edu>,
on 23 Nov 1996 01:48:55 GMT,
FABIO CESAR RIVERA <fri...@sfsu.edu> writes:
>Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
>under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
>controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
>in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
>
>Fabio.
We certainly noticed that Garibaldi was in the hands of PSI Force. That
he did not escape, but was released. PSI Force is notorious for implanting
hidden personalities. Ergo, Garibaldi is harboring a hidden personality.
This may be at Bester's behest, not at that of the Shadows.
Mike 'Bester's behest is best' Benedetti
aaarrrrcccchhhhh!
Frank White
In article <3299FA...@tandem.com>, stegbau...@tandem.com says...
>
>FABIO CESAR RIVERA wrote:
Spoiler space
>> Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
>> under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
>> controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
>> in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
>>
>> Fabio.
>
>
>I'm making an Official Prediction here:
>
>I don't think so. Garibaldi's reactions were entirely understandable
>for what he'd been through. His reaction to Zack was "Is it
>really Zack? Or is it Psicorp Memorex?" His reaction to Lorien was
>that of a man who's really tired of it all, just like he said.
>
>I think JMS is just playing around.
>
I got to agree. First of all, if there's one place PsiCorps would
be unlikely to send another sleeper personality implant spy, it would
be B5, where they already know about such things and are on guard, and
where they have dozens of rogue telepaths - including Lyta - who might
do a scan at the wrong moment and blow the gaff.
Which is not to say I think NOTHING happened to Garibaldi while he was
in the Shadows and/or PsiCorps hands. Just that it's probably something
new that will blast our socks off at the proper time.
And as for Garibaldi's behavior, the only thing he seemed to do odd was
challenge Sheridan as to what Lorien was doing there, and frankly, that's
perfectly understandable to me. Sheridan's gone to Z'Ha'Dum and come back;
perviously the only ones who have done so were under the control of the
Shadows; Sheridan's brought this STRANGE alien on board and is letting him
listen in on the War Council as they plan and discuss; if *I* were the Big
G., *I*'d be really suspicious about this, too.
FW
SpinnWebe
> >I'm making an Official Prediction here:
> >
> >I don't think so. Garibaldi's reactions were entirely understandable
> >for what he'd been through. His reaction to Zack was "Is it
> >really Zack? Or is it Psicorp Memorex?" His reaction to Lorien was
> >that of a man who's really tired of it all, just like he said.
> >
> >I think JMS is just playing around.
> >
>
> Which is not to say I think NOTHING happened to Garibaldi while he was
> in the Shadows and/or PsiCorps hands. Just that it's probably something
> new that will blast our socks off at the proper time.
Yah. Actually, here's what I'm wondering (and I'm pulling this one out of
hazy memory): when Garibaldi was in the cell in WHtMG, one of the things
the voice said was (something like), "bioreadings show that you're just
telling us what you think we want to hear; what happened after you left
babylon five?"
So, um. I knew, and it happened, that one of the first things G. would be
asked when he woke up was, "what happened after you left the station?"
Which is what the voice kept hammering at him, of course. So, uh, I dunno.
I mean, we can't dispute that G. was taken by a Shadow ship, so how many
times did he change hands, I wonder?
Okay, absolutely wild speculation here: let's say that was psicorps that
got him. In fact, let's say the guy in the mask was Bester. Maybe when he
said "we're on the same team" that wasn't just a smarmy saying? Maybe
there's a contingent working inside the psicorps against the shadows, the
same way B5 was working against the shadows while under Earth rule? And
maybe they worked out a way to "safely" run a shadow ship.
er, no, wait, I went off the deep end with that one. Those shadow ships
were there to potentially attack b5, so they were definitely shadow-run.
Ah, hell. I dunno. Now I gotta wait a whole week to find out what happens
next anyway.
--
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--------------------------- --- -------------------------------------
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An Equal Opportunity Annoyer. | http://spinn.thoughtport.com/spinnwebe/
----------This text is purple. Please adjust your monitor.--------------
TMB
Lots of spoilers for the benefit of WMBN
WASTE
MORE
BANDWIDTH
NOW!
Since he obviously changed hands, maybe Bester or a member of
Psi-corp rescued him. Maybe they set up something inside him
as a non-telepath that they want to try against the shadows.
Since they (at B5) know about the Sleeper program, Bester just
couldn't drop him back off with a 'don't mention it'.
Especially if it winds up killing him.
--
TMB
Spammers used to bother me, until I started using "whois" and "nslookup".
now I report and sometimes prosecute!
SpinnWebe <spin...@thoughtport.com> wrote in article
<spinnwebe-261...@l81.redrose.net>...
Dwight U. Bartholomew
John Murray wrote:
> times, there was something there and what else could it have been? I
> the PSI Corps, waiting for the correct thought sequence to activate
> it.
I agree with you 100%. Recall the scene in Mr. G's lifepod just before
he is rescued. A computer voice says "initiate program" and Mr. G's
eyes
open. This may even indicate something BEYOND the implanted
personality...
like, there IS no more Mr. G; just a wiley Psi-Corp personality.
As, in "War Without End" isn't Sinclair mysteriously warning Mr. G (via
delayed
message) to watch out? More than that, I recall a certain sorrow in
Sinclair that
something very tragic was going to inevitably happen to Mr. G.
Dwight Bartholomew
R. Dan Henry
FABIO CESAR RIVERA wrote:
[spoiler space]
> Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may
> be under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell
> is controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was
> wrapped in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
I say the crew of that ship fulfilled their mission... get Garibaldi
back to B5. They probably blew up their own ship to make it look good. I
kept making cracks through the whole show like "Get some rest boss. You
can be a programed assassin later." He's going to do *something*
unusual. Being conditioned to kill a certain target is only the most
obvious. But if I had to make a bet, I'd say he was to kill Delenn as
the most effective way of splitting what remains of the AoL. Of course,
with Sheridan back in action, that wouldn't work.
--
R. Dan Henry (danh...@inreach.com)
Michael Stegbauer
Dwight U. Bartholomew wrote:
> A computer voice says "initiate program" and Mr. G's eyes open.
This may have just been a 'wake up from extended sleep' program.
> More than that, I recall a certain sorrow in
> Sinclair that
> something very tragic was going to inevitably happen to Mr. G.
It was "watch your back Michael". As in 'you're going to
be shot in the back', which already happened.
I think JMS is just yanking your chains. Throwing in a little
ambiguity where none exists anymore. I'd almost be surprised
if we _don't_ see, in a future episode, a 10 minute sequence
of Talia flashbacks and hit-you-in-the-face dialogues pertaining
to Garibaldi possibly being implanted with a personality.
Of course, something interesting and new will probably come
out of this, but it will almost certainly be a bumpy ride.
ste...@usit.net
"Dwight U. Bartholomew" <dwi...@infrared.csc.ti.com> wrote:
>John Murray wrote:
>> times, there was something there and what else could it have been? I
>> fear our Mr. G. may now have an "implanted" personality, courtsey of
>> the PSI Corps, waiting for the correct thought sequence to activate
>> it.
>I agree with you 100%. Recall the scene in Mr. G's lifepod just before
>he is rescued. A computer voice says "initiate program" and Mr. G's
>eyes
>open. This may even indicate something BEYOND the implanted
>personality...
>like, there IS no more Mr. G; just a wiley Psi-Corp personality.
>As, in "War Without End" isn't Sinclair mysteriously warning Mr. G (via
>delayed
>message) to watch out? More than that, I recall a certain sorrow in
>Sinclair that
>something very tragic was going to inevitably happen to Mr. G.
Sinclair will never know how the shadow war turns out. He looped
back in time in War Without End. His only existence in any timelines
ended there. Probably is more likely a reference to G getting shot
in the back...?
-Steve
MAIL: ste...@usit.net
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Dwight U. Bartholomew
R. Dan Henry wrote:
> Being conditioned to kill a certain target is only the most
> obvious. But if I had to make a bet, I'd say he was to kill Delenn as
> the most effective way of splitting what remains of the AoL. Of course,
> with Sheridan back in action, that wouldn't work.
Lorien was able to see Kosh's personality within Sheridan. It seems
highly likely that Lorien knows exactly what Mr. G is about.
Why isn't he saying anything? Or have I broken with reality
and my mind has B-5 syndrome (as my wife would say)?
Dwight
Shawn L. Vallotton
In article <19961125....@lmco.com>,
michael....@lmco.com (Michael Benedetti) wrote:
>In article <575l67$l...@news.csus.edu>,
> on 23 Nov 1996 01:48:55 GMT,
> FABIO CESAR RIVERA <fri...@sfsu.edu> writes:
>>Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
>>under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
>>controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
>>in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
>>
>>Fabio.
>
>We certainly noticed that Garibaldi was in the hands of PSI Force. That
>he did not escape, but was released. PSI Force is notorious for
implanting
>hidden personalities. Ergo, Garibaldi is harboring a hidden personality.
>This may be at Bester's behest, not at that of the Shadows.
>
>Mike 'Bester's behest is best' Benedetti
>
>aaarrrrcccchhhhh!
I have a problem with that whole scene. Follow me here....youre in the PSI
cores custody and instead of scanning you and finding what they want to
know, no fuss no muss......they ask you the same question over and over
again, not exactly productive. In the past the PSI core asks you twice and
then they peel your mind like an onion. Bester even killed someone once to
find out what he wanted to know. Sooooo either Girabaldi has developed the
ability to block PSI scans or someone dressed up like PSI core to misslead
G (and the folks at home).
Ruth Ballam
Michael Benedetti wrote:
>
> In article <575l67$l...@news.csus.edu>,
> on 23 Nov 1996 01:48:55 GMT,
> FABIO CESAR RIVERA <fri...@sfsu.edu> writes:
> >Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
> >under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
> >controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
> >in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
> >
> >Fabio.
>
> We certainly noticed that Garibaldi was in the hands of PSI Force. That
That's Psi Corps to you buddy :)
> he did not escape, but was released. PSI Force is notorious for implanting
Not exactly "notorious" and Bester claims that the sleeper program was terminated.
Of course he hardly has to tell the truth to mundanes.
> hidden personalities. Ergo, Garibaldi is harboring a hidden personality.
Don't think so. The whole beauty of the hidden personality is that it's *hidden*.
But I do think they've been brainwashing him.
Ruth
Q. How do telepaths make love ?
A. They fuck with your mind.
bsh...@together.net
Spoil Space for summoning and appoth..
>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> Being conditioned to kill a certain target is only the most
>> obvious.
Why do most people believe that Mr. G is programed to kill someone?
If thius were true he could have done it a few shows back. I see him
either informing PSI-Corp or Shadows of the goings on about B-5 or
sabotaging some aspect of B-5.. Or he could do both..
>Lorien was able to see Kosh's personality within Sheridan. It seems
>highly likely that Lorien knows exactly what Mr. G is about.
>Why isn't he saying anything? Or have I broken with reality
>and my mind has B-5 syndrome (as my wife would say)
Who's to say that he hasn't seen any such thing. It's not like either
he or Sherridian(sp?) have trusted him with much info. Maybe Lorien
just doesn't know a way to help Mr. G and knows that there is a 'good'
person on the inside.. Well that's just what I can see from here..
Kevin S
ann...@aol.com
Spoilers needed? I dunno. Better safe than sorry
That's what bothered me too. If it was Psi Corps that had Garibaldi, why
did they keep interrogating him? Why not just read his mind.? The only
reasons I can come up with are - he was captured twice and the first time
something was done to him so he can't be read telepathically or he has
always had that ability.
anne in chicago
orionca
Howabout this: The Shadows caught him, did something to him, and handed him
over to PsiCorp saying, "Here, deliver this package for us."
Now Psicorp is extremely curious about what is in the 'package' they were told
to deliver. Garibaldi doesn't remember what happened to him after he was
captured, so they can't really read his mind to figure this out. So they spend
a couple of weeks probing him, erase the evidence from his mind, and send him on
his way at the appropriate time.
Is Garibaldi a brainwashed agent? Very hard to say. That is the *OBVIOUS*
inference we are to get from watching this unfold, but it could be something
very, very different. Perhaps they simply have 'read his aura' so that they can
tune into his thoughts from a distance, hmm? He'd be the perfect spy then.
Even he wouldn't know that he was spying on his companions and there would be no
evidence of tampering, physical or mental, detectable.
Glenn Castle
orionca wrote:
>
> On 29 Nov 1996 09:34:15 GMT, ann...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >Spoilers needed? I dunno. Better safe than sorry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >anne in chicago
>
> Howabout this.....
> .....tampering, physical or mental, detectable.
To me it seemed that Lorien seemed to be very "amused" by Mr. Garibaldi.
And I assume Lorien is much like the Minbari, you know, they tell the
truth, but only their truth, and only what they feel should be admitted
to for their own purposes.
So how about this.
Maybe there is a shadow inside Mr. Garibaldi. Lorien knows it.
(He wouldn't turn one of his "children" over to the savages would he?)
And Psi Corps knows "something", but not "everything" about it.
If the Psi guys try to read him they get fried.
So they resort to "gentle" persuasion.
But they need to get him back to B5, so they arrange his being found.
Michael Stegbauer
Glenn Castle wrote:
>
> orionca wrote:
> >
> > On 29 Nov 1996 09:34:15 GMT, ann...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >Spoilers needed? I dunno. Better safe than sorry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >That's what bothered me.......
> > >
> > >anne in chicago
> >
> > Howabout this.....
> > .....tampering, physical or mental, detectable.
>
> To me it seemed that Lorien seemed to be very "amused" by Mr. Garibaldi.
I think Lorien in amused because G is right and everybody is ignoring
him.
Why isn't anybody checking on Sheridan? He was dead, on Z'Ha'Dum,
brought
back to life by the 'parent' of the Shadows and Vorlons, and they just
follow him.
He's building the largest fleet in history, presumably to go against a
Vorlon fleet. The same Vorlons who ate the Shadows for lunch the only
time we've seen them engaged in battle. I think perhaps that last
Episode's title "The Summoning" may have been a summoning to
execution for the younger races, by Sheridan.
I don't think Sheridan is going to turn out 'bad', but JMS is definitely
pointing that way and then pulling back. OTOH, he's got a target
painted
on evil-G. Let's face it, that ain't J's style.
Robert Holland
Michael Benedetti wrote:
>
> In article <575l67$l...@news.csus.edu>,
> on 23 Nov 1996 01:48:55 GMT,
> FABIO CESAR RIVERA <fri...@sfsu.edu> writes:
> >Did anyone notice that Garibaldi is acting different? I think he may be
> >under the Shadow's control or whoever was holding him in that cell is
> >controlling him. The way he was rescued was way too easy (he was wrapped
> >in shrink-wrap? ha ha.)
> >
> >Fabio.
>
> We certainly noticed that Garibaldi was in the hands of PSI Force. That
>
> Mike 'Bester's behest is best' Benedetti
>
> aaarrrrcccchhhhh!
Seems to me the reason the shadows appeared at B5 was to lure Garibaldi
out where they could nab him. Why would they send so many ships to take
out
B5, if that was their purpose. A single ginsu beam would do in the
station,
especially if shot from the side opposite Draal's planet, where no beams
or line-of-sight psi weapons can get them.
--RH
JDic...@ix.netcom.com
A friend of mine reminded me that the psi-corp and the Earth govt.
seemed to have made some sort of deal with the shadows last season.
Perhaps Garibaldi was captured by the Shadows at the request of the
Earthers. He was then brain washed by psi-corp to be a mole for them.
Having the head of security as your chief spy seems like a good idea to
me.
Jerry
Larry White
Many of us thought that "Taking away B5" meant desctuction. We then went
on tho assume that the Shadow ship's dissaperence from B5 space at
about the same screen time as the big boom on ZHD meant that they
instantly knew about the explosion. Perhaps the whole idea was to
capture Garabaldi and subvert B5 in the long term.
Robert Holland
Yes, this is similar to what I was thinking. By planting Garibaldi as
a mole, he can subvert the AoL from inside. And if the AoL suspects
the true nature of Garibaldi (turn them wheels, Z-Z-Zack, you'll figger
it out) then that suspicion itself may be enough to sack their efforts.
Just why the Shadows care about AoL is another question. The Shadows
warred to a draw with the First Ones over millions of years--do you
believe punk upstarts like Sheridan can do any better? Why?
The Vorlons is gonna get an ass-whuppin' real soon, 'cuz they've
undertaken this assault on their own. The AoL will dance on their
graves.
--RH
John Fairhurst
In <32AF56...@wco.com>, Robert Holland <rhol...@wco.com> writes:
>Larry White wrote:
>>
>> JDic...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> >
>> > Robert Holland wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Michael Benedetti wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > FABIO CESAR RIVERA <fri...@sfsu.edu> writes:
>> > > >
>> > > > [ does Mr. G have an implanted personality? ]
>> > >
>> > > [ did the shadows come to b5 to get Mr. G ?]
>> >
>> > [ was Earth responsible for the shadow attack?]
>>
>> [ "taking away b5" == subverting Mr. G? ]
>
>Yes, this is similar to what I was thinking. By planting Garibaldi as
>a mole, he can subvert the AoL from inside. And if the AoL suspects
>the true nature of Garibaldi (turn them wheels, Z-Z-Zack, you'll figger
>it out) then that suspicion itself may be enough to sack their efforts.
>
I dunno guys... the whole Mr. G business seems kinda... obvious? or am
I just expecting too much from jms? It's just the ..unsubtlety
("begin program" or whatever).. of it all.
Somewhat unrelatedly, I agree with RH - why would the shadows bother
with the AoL: okay so Josh united the LoNAW, but so what - they still
don't count for a lot on the vorlon/shadow scale...
John
boy brent
In article <58p9ed$b...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
mj...@cam.ac.uk (John Fairhurst) wrote:
:I dunno guys... the whole Mr. G business seems kinda... obvious? or am
:I just expecting too much from jms? It's just the ..unsubtlety
:("begin program" or whatever).. of it all.
Remember Garibaldi's assistant "Jack," who shot him in the back during the 1st
season finale? Early in the 2nd season he was revealed to be a psi-cop plant,
said goodbye to Garibaldi with a taunting "be seeing you" wave, then
disappeared en route to prison. Well, guess who's continued to list him as a
minor character even up to the present season? Read it in the B5 FAQ...
Bets that he's the person we saw walk into the room where G. was being held?
boy brent | Pro captu lectoris habent sua fata lebelli.
bca...@teleport.com | -- Terentianus Maurus
Ken Schroder
Shawn L. Vallotton wrote:
>
> I have a problem with that whole scene. Follow me here....youre in the PSI
> cores custody and instead of scanning you and finding what they want to
> know, no fuss no muss......they ask you the same question over and over
> again, not exactly productive.
It could be that they'd already gotten the information they wanted but were creating
enough trauma around the memory to prevent Garibalbi from remembering it later--in a
way, analogous to the selective mind wipe the Minbari did on Sinclair. The block
could break down, and a telepath might well be able to read past it (if the command
staff had a trustworthy telepath they could turn to and Garibaldi permitted it), but
at least it buys someone a little time.
The trauma could also be part of a brainwashing process that allows them to introduce
a hidden personality.
Ken
Ken Schroder
John Fairhurst wrote:
> I dunno guys... the whole Mr. G business seems kinda... obvious? or am
> I just expecting too much from jms? It's just the ..unsubtlety
> ("begin program" or whatever).. of it all.
To me, the interesting questions are along the lines of "Who was the shadow ship that captured
Garibaldi working for? Justin? Bester? If they both had a hand in it, is Bester helping Justin
or did Bester rescue Garibaldi from Justin's forces?" and so forth. If a hidden personality
was implanted the question is "To what purpose?" To gather information and spy? probably.
But is there something else that will trigger it? Will it act to help Shadow or Vorlon or
Psicorp? Will Garibaldi beat it? Will there be an opportunity for Garibaldi to become aware of
it and us it to his advantage as Sheridan did with Kosh" and so forth. The interesting part
is in the complex potential relationships among the factions and in the variations on themes
as in Kosh hidden in Sheridan, in Lyta--implanted personality in Talia, Garibaldi--mind wipes
and reformed personalities in criminals, etc.
> Somewhat unrelatedly, I agree with RH - why would the shadows bother
> with the AoL: okay so Josh united the LoNAW, but so what - they still
> don't count for a lot on the vorlon/shadow scale...
An interesting point is that the the proxy races that the Vorlons and Shadows are bringing to
battle are what allow Vorlons and Shadows to assert their various ideologies without taking
any direct risk to their own species. Anything that might lead the "minor" proxy races to
withdraw from the conflict, walk away from the Vorlons and Shadows, brings the Vorlons and
Shadows closer to having to put their money where their mouth is. The closest we've seen to a
direct conflict so far is when Kosh rallied an attack force, probably by exerting his personal
influence over some segment of the Vorlons who control their military forces--similar to G'Kar
pulling together a heavy cruiser for an exploration, or Londo going after Refa--not complete
agreement but enough to put together a small force, adequate to the task. Kosh was killed,
probably in part for blood revenge but also in part to cut any chance of Kosh's influence
growing, while not doing anything so bold to trigger an escalation of the direct Vorlon/Shadow
conflict. This is all speculation, of course, but if you look to the proxy states of the Cold
War or to the interests that are party to current conflicts in the Middle East and the states
of the former Yugoslovia, similarly complex human conflicts and motives are available.
Ken
Michael Stegbauer
John Fairhurst wrote:
>
> I dunno guys... the whole Mr. G business seems kinda... obvious? or am
> I just expecting too much from jms? It's just the ..unsubtlety
> ("begin program" or whatever).. of it all.
>
I agree entirely. In fact, everybody (on B5 and usenet) seems
to be ignoring the fact the G had a damn good point about Sheridan.
Sheridan does seem to be overly influenced by Lorien. Sheridan
just killed the Vorlon ambassador (maybe he had to, maybe not...)
Sheridan is amassing the biggest fleet in history to go off and
get slaughtered. I think G is acting reasonable for someone in
his circumstance... a little testy, a little annoyed. I think
something is going to come out of the 'flashbacks', but not
an implanted personality... something that will work for AoL.
For all we know, the guy standing over unconcious G was Sheridan
or Lorien.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
He's going to cook me in a big pot with carrots! I hate Carrots!!!
- Baby Sinclair, "Dinosaurs": "Monster Under the Bed"
______________________________________________________________________________
Dana L. Cadman
Or it could be that they've already planted the second personality and
what we saw was a test, to see if Garibahldi would remember that the
personality was inserted.
--
alt.spam is about SPAM - not spamming. Read alt.spam to trade SPAM
recipies, hear SPAM news, and read SPAM poetry. Do not spam alt.spam,
because it is not about spamming. Thank you.
Robert Holland
> :I dunno guys... the whole Mr. G business seems kinda... obvious? or am
> :I just expecting too much from jms? It's just the ..unsubtlety
> :("begin program" or whatever).. of it all.
>
> season finale? Early in the 2nd season he was revealed to be a psi-cop plant,
> said goodbye to Garibaldi with a taunting "be seeing you" wave, then
> disappeared en route to prison. Well, guess who's continued to list him as a
> minor character even up to the present season? Read it in the B5 FAQ...
>
> Bets that he's the person we saw walk into the room where G. was being held?
It really does not matter who walked into that room, as long as he or
she
wore a psi-cop uniform. All you need to know is psi-cops were
brainwashing
Garibaldi.
Now, the question could be--which faction? Obviously, the faction Bester
is fighting, because they used the Shadows to Shanghai our hero.
BTW, Garibaldi is a volcano. Do you believe this is what he referred
to when he said he'd hate to let go? Maybe his head will explode!
Or, he could suffer a bout of Turret's syndrome, spewing blasphemy
all about the place.
Here's how you can get Windows NT 4.0 to display Garibaldi's name
on occasion: Set the screen saver to OpenGL 3D Text, and type in
"volcano".
The screen saver will display the names of volcanoes about the globe
in some fashion. Eventually you'll see Garibaldi.
--RH
Raven (J. Singleton)
Spoiler warning, re: 4th season, "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
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Shawn L. Vallotton wrote:
| I have a problem with that whole scene. Follow me here....youre in the PSI
| cores custody and instead of scanning you and finding what they want to
| know, no fuss no muss......they ask you the same question over and over
| again, not exactly productive.
My own suspicion is that whoever-it-was repeated that question until he
became furious, not to get information, but to condition him to respond
in that way -- so that if any of his colleagues on B5 tried to pry into
what happened while he was away, he'd have the same rage response.
So it would help cover their tracks....
Ian Finnesey
Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
: | I have a problem with that whole scene. Follow me here....youre in the PSI
: | cores custody and instead of scanning you and finding what they want to
: | know, no fuss no muss......they ask you the same question over and over
: | again, not exactly productive.
: My own suspicion is that whoever-it-was repeated that question until he
: became furious, not to get information, but to condition him to respond
: in that way -- so that if any of his colleagues on B5 tried to pry into
: what happened while he was away, he'd have the same rage response.
Of course, it's possible that it WASN'T PSI Corps.
--
---
Let's play pretend. You just pretend this isn't happening.
Matthew Melmon
In article <5c0ln6$j...@news.alaska.edu>, fs...@aurora.alaska.edu (Ian
Finnesey) wrote:
I thought it was the Magical Mister Morden - able to appear
wherever necessary at a moment's notice, able to survive
500 megaton nuclear blasts occuring just down the hallway -
who came in and looked at Garibaldi after he collapsed (in a
repeat of his pensive-in-a-gas-mask performance).
Slinky the Wonder Ferret
Spoiler protection added:
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I keep telling everyone that It's Jack from Chrysalis, but no one
believes me. Think I'll change my name to G'Kar... :)
-- JDP
com...@aol.com
>: My own suspicion is that whoever-it-was repeated that question until he
>: became furious, not to get information, but to condition him to respond
>: in that way -- so that if any of his colleagues on B5 tried to pry into
>: what happened while he was away, he'd have the same rage response.
In watching a re-run of that episode the other day, I came to the same
conclusion... whether it's PSI Corp or Shadows, I believe that was the
purpose.
Laura
biome...@aol.com
In article <32E491...@mindspring.com>, Slinky the Wonder Ferret
<dpo...@mindspring.com> writes:
Isnt it Jack from "Comes the Inquisitor"?
Slinky the Wonder Ferret
Nope.
-- JDP
LEONARD Daniel
Or it might be a verification to know if their "mindwipe" were successful
(to protect themselves, who ever they are).
*******************************************************
* *
*Daniel Leonard *
* *
* e-mail: leo...@jsp.umontreal.ca *
* *
* www : http://epsom.jsp.umontreal.ca/~leonard*
* *
*******************************************************
"Total freedom means total responsability"
-Dominique, Children of the Inquisition
Robert Holland
>
> > Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
> > : | I have a problem with that whole scene. Follow me here....youre in the PSI
> > : | cores custody and instead of scanning you and finding what they want to
> > : | know, no fuss no muss......they ask you the same question over and over
> > : | again, not exactly productive.
> >
> > : became furious, not to get information, but to condition him to respond
> > : in that way -- so that if any of his colleagues on B5 tried to pry into
> > : what happened while he was away, he'd have the same rage response.
> >
>
> I thought it was the Magical Mister Morden - able to appear
> wherever necessary at a moment's notice, able to survive
> 500 megaton nuclear blasts occuring just down the hallway -
> who came in and looked at Garibaldi after he collapsed (in a
> repeat of his pensive-in-a-gas-mask performance).
Morden? That flake leaves a trail.
What we saw were brainwashing techniques. The identity of the
man in black psi-corps uniform makes little difference.
--RH
Richard Griffith
Form somewhere earlier in the chain:
> I thought it was the Magical Mister Morden - able to appear
> wherever necessary at a moment's notice, able to survive
> 500 megaton nuclear blasts occuring just down the hallway -
> who came in and looked at Garibaldi after he collapsed (in a
> repeat of his pensive-in-a-gas-mask performance).
I'd put that 500MEGT survival down to smarts. Here is JS, supposidly
all alone on Za'Ha'Dum with backup as far away as B5, trying to blast
his way out of the heart of the Shadow power base with a PPG.
Instant conclusion:
1) JS has flipped out and has a death wish.
2) There is a heck of a lot of backup fire power about to show up.
Resolved action:
Get away to somewhere safe.
As it turns out what was happening was 1&2.
"The flesh is but a tool." Might Morden be better off dead at this
point in time. The shadows had better be offering him more than the
carrot they are waving in front of the Emporer.
Rg
Matthew Melmon
In article <RJG.97Ja...@odo.doe.carleton.ca>,
r...@odo.doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith) wrote:
> I'd put that 500MEGT survival down to smarts. Here is JS, supposidly
> all alone on Za'Ha'Dum with backup as far away as B5, trying to blast
> his way out of the heart of the Shadow power base with a PPG.
>
> Instant conclusion:
> 1) JS has flipped out and has a death wish.
> 2) There is a heck of a lot of backup fire power about to show up.
> Resolved action:
> Get away to somewhere safe.
Um, yes, well, while we don't exactly know how Sheridan
got out of that room (which is BOGUS, capital BOGUS), it
doesn't seem that unreasonable to conclude he didn't go
far; or, take long to get where he was going. Unless Mr.
Morden has a teleportation device handy, he didn't get
far either. Precisely why he should have been able to
survive is, again conveniently unknown (though merely
bogus) - it also suggests that the damage suffered by
the rest of the city is similarly ephemeral. The Shadows
living there may just have bad sunburns.
Matb
In <mattm-24019...@melmma1.apple.com> ma...@apple.com (Matthew>r...@odo.doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith) wrote, well, other stuff, and added:
>Um, yes, well, while we don't exactly know how Sheridan
>got out of that room (which is BOGUS, capital BOGUS), it
>doesn't seem that unreasonable to conclude he didn't go
>far; or, take long to get where he was going. Unless Mr.
>Morden has a teleportation device handy, he didn't get
>far either. Precisely why he should have been able to
>survive is, again conveniently unknown (though merely
>bogus) - it also suggests that the damage suffered by
>the rest of the city is similarly ephemeral. The Shadows
>living there may just have bad sunburns.
Heartily agreed. Shadows are invisible unless you 'tune' your TV monitor,
right? (I know - it's dramatically captivating for the viewer to see the
Shadow scuttle into the room behind Sheridan rather.. and more importantly,
it'd be a helluva depressing way to end the 'season'..)
Maybe JMS had watched too much Independence Day?
Robert Holland
Richard Griffith wrote:
>
> Form somewhere earlier in the chain:
>
> > I thought it was the Magical Mister Morden - able to appear
> > wherever necessary at a moment's notice, able to survive
> > 500 megaton nuclear blasts occuring just down the hallway -
> > who came in and looked at Garibaldi after he collapsed (in a
> > repeat of his pensive-in-a-gas-mask performance).
>
> all alone on Za'Ha'Dum with backup as far away as B5, trying to blast
> his way out of the heart of the Shadow power base with a PPG.
>
> Instant conclusion:
> 1) JS has flipped out and has a death wish.
> 2) There is a heck of a lot of backup fire power about to show up.
> Resolved action:
> Get away to somewhere safe.
>
> "The flesh is but a tool." Might Morden be better off dead at this
> point in time. The shadows had better be offering him more than the
> carrot they are waving in front of the Emporer.
Running away, or hopping a speeding freighter out of town might
explain Morden and the blast, but Sheridan had him in a small
room at point blank range.
What, no PPG burns, Mr. Morden? Or did Jason take all Sheridan's
wrath? Anna certainly came out unscathed!
--RH
Matthew Melmon
In article <32fe4f14...@news.earthlink.net>, ori...@earthlink.net
(orionca) wrote:
> So Morden pulls out his confiscated PPG, discovers too late that it's empty.
> He launches himself at Sheridan who is just turning back toward him. Big
> fight; Anna runs out of the room to summon more Shadow guards, Justin hides
> under the table or whatever. At some point in the fight Sheridan loses his
> PPG but manages to cold cock Morden. He races out of the room, runs into
> some more guards, exchanges shots with them (he's recovered his PPG), and
> takes off in the opposite direction. His goal is not escape but to get a
> clear line of sight with the White Star so he can execute the Black Swan
> Dive maneuver.
So there's this Vorlon, see. And some "Shadow guards" are really
pissed and intend to kill him, see. See three of them go in
to do it. Now, see, it seems reasonable to conclude that one-on
one is a fair Vorlon-Shadow fight, cuz they sent three, and that
outta just bump those odds up from 50-50 to pretty much the Vorlon
dies.
Okay, so then there's this Vorlon. And a bunch of hairless monkeys
have him "trapped" in a cargo bay. And the monkeys are shotting
hundreds of ppg shots into the Vorlon and it _isn't doing *shit*_.
So we are to believe that *Captain* *Sheridan*, all be his little
lonesome, with a single little pop-pop gun, fights his way past even
*one* Shadow, when he couldn't run out of a cargo bay with a
Vorlon to his *back* without the help of God?
> While there is little on-air time between the brawl and the destruction of
> the Shadows' capital
Uh-huh. Some brilliant storytelling, that. Of course there
was little on-air time. It was an ABSURD situation. Best to
dust it under the carpet as quickly as possible.
> How did Mr. Morden survive? Well, by the time he woke up (assuming the
> fight turned out as I suggested), Sheridan was long gone, Anna Sheridan was
> off with the guards looking for her ex husband, and Justin was still under
> the table being perfectly bloody useless. So he takes off for the Shadow
> command center to coordinate the search which (Surprise! Surprise!) is
> shielded against nuclear attack. Not completely, however, so he takes a
> huge dose of radiation & thermals when the bombs go off. Luckily for him
> the Shadows have a vested interest in digging him out of the rubble and
> patching him back up.
You should write those "some guy falls out of an airplane"
jokes. You're up to "and then a thermodynamic miracle bumps
all of his molecules up at just the right moment and his
downard acceleration is miraculously stopped."
Chris Bradford
Robert Holland (rhol...@wco.com) wrote:
: Running away, or hopping a speeding freighter out of town might
: explain Morden and the blast, but Sheridan had him in a small
: room at point blank range.
: What, no PPG burns, Mr. Morden? Or did Jason take all Sheridan's
: wrath? Anna certainly came out unscathed!
The answer to that question is Sheridan was shooting at the
Shadows, not Morden & crew.
--
--------------------------------+------------------------------------------
Chris Bradford | Elena Khatika, hermaphroditic Red Fox
1908 W 4th Place | on #Furry IRC (nick: Elena)
Kennewick, WA 99336 USA | Also on FurryMUCK as Elena_Khatika
ph. +1 509 586-4895 |
--------------------------------+------------------------------------------
"Zathrus warned, but oh no, no-one listened to poor Zathrus, no."
Furry Code:
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RLRB a cablo++ d+ e+ f+ h+>++ iwf++ p sm
Matthew Melmon
In article <3310e1fa...@news.earthlink.net>, ori...@earthlink.net
(orionca) wrote:
> The Vorlons & Shadows had an agreement NOT to directly interfere in each
> other's projects. Kosh broke the agreement. Those weren't 'guards' sent=
> to
> kill Kosh: Those were executioners.
Oh. Uh-huh. They looked remarkable like the Shadows on Z'ha'dum.
> Could Kosh have survived? Perhaps.
> But also perhaps the alternative was for one of the cloaked Shadows to
> wander down to Engineering and randomly rearrange the pile core rods to
> cause a meltdown. =20
Kosh was dead meat. His options, according to JMS, were to
stay and die or to leave the station and let someone else die.
> >Okay, so then there's this Vorlon. And a bunch of hairless monkeys
> >have him "trapped" in a cargo bay. And the monkeys are shotting
> >hundreds of ppg shots into the Vorlon and it _isn't doing *shit*_.
> >
>
> Vorlons are tough. Next stupid statement.
Not tough enough. Kosh was older than the Vorlon that he and
God helped Sheridan kill, and it was only a fraction of Kosh
that was in Sheridan, and, for the umpteenth time, the Shadows
*killed* *Kosh*. There is no basis for your argument that
the Shadows which did it were any different from those on
Z'ha'dum (but for the fact that you have to think of an
excuse).
> No one expected him to have said 'popgun'. Honestly, you give
> the Shadows too much credit.
Oh, *do* I? Look, doll, God himself said, "The Shadows were
able to kill Kosh because they are alike, both First Ones. You
have never faced their kind [God isn't too bright, it seems, or
has a very poor short term memory]. You have no idea how ferocious
a Vorlon can be. blah blah blah.]" I point out again, for the
umpteenth plus one time, three Shadows killed one Vorlon (and
without much trouble, Mr. Morden does not appear to have been
in any danger). This suggests relatively even odds one on one.
If Kosh were "as tough as" all three Shadows together, it would
only have been a fifty-fifty shot. *You* are the one giving
too much credit by insisting that the Vorlon are demi-gods and
the Shadows just got lucky killing one of them.
Thrasher08
Actually I read a post where JMS had stated that the Shadows had been able
to beat Kosh because he was outnumbered 3 to 1. Jms also said that while
Kosh was distracted by talking to Sheridan, as well as fighting 3 Shadows
Kosh was able to *seriously* injure one of them.
Thrasher
Thras...@aol.com
Thrasher
Thras...@aol.com
Matthew Melmon
In article <19970209180...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
thras...@aol.com (Thrasher08) wrote:
> Actually I read a post where JMS had stated that the Shadows had been able
> to beat Kosh because he was outnumbered 3 to 1. Jms also said that while
> Kosh was distracted by talking to Sheridan, as well as fighting 3 Shadows
> Kosh was able to *seriously* injure one of them.
This supports the contention that the two species are
similar in their kick-assness. If they were evenly
matched, one on one would be fifty-fifty. Not a good
idea if you want to be sure the other guy dies. Two
on one, maybe one of your guys dies. Three on one,
that's a pretty unfair fight.
A better scenario for "what really happened on Z'hadum"
is that Sheridan turned around and shot his stupid little
gun at the Shadow at it laughed in his face. He ran
screaming from the room, and it didn't bother to stop
him. Anna says, "Why didn't you stop him!?" and Morden
says, "Where's he going to go? Find him and calm him
down."
Zanteogo
Good idea, I wish JMS told us this. I wondered how a small little gun
could kill a shadow and a god like super Vorlon could not kill three?
-Zanteogo
Nathan Roberts
Thrasher08 wrote:
>
> Actually I read a post where JMS had stated that the Shadows had been able
> to beat Kosh because he was outnumbered 3 to 1. Jms also said that while
> Kosh was distracted by talking to Sheridan, as well as fighting 3 Shadows
> Kosh was able to *seriously* injure one of them.
Kosh II was also outnumbered 3 to 1 when he was defeated. Sheridan
sicked what was left of Kosh I on him, and (according to Lorien) some
of Sheridan and Lorien as well.
Robert Holland
Chris Bradford wrote:
>
> Robert Holland (rhol...@wco.com) wrote:
> : Running away, or hopping a speeding freighter out of town might
> : explain Morden and the blast, but Sheridan had him in a small
> : room at point blank range.
>
> : What, no PPG burns, Mr. Morden? Or did Jason take all Sheridan's
> : wrath? Anna certainly came out unscathed!
>
> The answer to that question is Sheridan was shooting at the
> Shadows, not Morden & crew.
You have to get Sheridan out of that room, bleeding. You have to get
Anna out of that room unscathed. You have to get Morden out of that
room and far enough from the blast to avoid being vaporized. As for
Justin, you can do with him what you will.
Now, we saw Centauri rifles take out two shadows with about 7 rounds
of rapid-fire PPG, so I'd say they were pretty soft targets. Maybe
Sheridan could have killed the shadow that attacked him.
--RH
Matthew Melmon
Of all the nerve. I have been requested to post a rebuttal
to my own post...
>From: BioMe...@aol.com
>
>Please post this as I am unable to.
>
>>> Actually I read a post where JMS had stated that the Shadows had been able
>>> to beat Kosh because he was outnumbered 3 to 1. Jms also said that while
>>> Kosh was distracted by talking to Sheridan, as well as fighting 3 Shadows
>>> Kosh was able to *seriously* injure one of them.
>>
>>This supports the contention that the two species are
>>similar in their kick-assness. If they were evenly
>>matched, one on one would be fifty-fifty. Not a good
>>idea if you want to be sure the other guy dies. Two
>>on one, maybe one of your guys dies. Three on one,
>>that's a pretty unfair fight.
>>
>>A better scenario for "what really happened on Z'hadum"
>>is that Sheridan turned around and shot his stupid little
>>gun at the Shadow at it laughed in his face. He ran
>>screaming from the room, and it didn't bother to stop
>>him. Anna says, "Why didn't you stop him!?" and Morden
>>says, "Where's he going to go? Find him and calm him
>>down."
>
>PPG's do hurt shadows, as shown by londo in Into the fire.
Matthew Melmon
Hmmm. Well, one more time, I have the odd pleasure of
posting a rebuttal to my own post...
-------
From: BioMe...@aol.com
Please post this as I am unable to.
>This supports the contention that the two species are
Matb
>This supports the contention that the two species are
>similar in their kick-assness. If they were evenly
>matched, one on one would be fifty-fifty. Not a good
>idea if you want to be sure the other guy dies. Two
>on one, maybe one of your guys dies. Three on one,
>that's a pretty unfair fight.
...And then two Centauri gundudes toss a lot of buttwhip and nail two
Shadows with a long burst.
Guess Vorlon/Shadow strength is all dependent on plot..
-M
Matb
>You know, reading this, I just realized something...
>
>Kosh II was also outnumbered 3 to 1 when he was defeated. Sheridan
>sicked what was left of Kosh I on him, and (according to Lorien) some
>of Sheridan and Lorien as well.
Say hey, maybe Sheridan was super-Kosh-charged on ZHD, and *that's* how
he got past the Shadows...
... no, I don't buy it either. Just trying to be a bit more positive than
others round 'heah.
-M
R. Dan Henry
Robert Holland wrote:
> Now, we saw Centauri rifles take out two shadows with about 7 rounds
> of rapid-fire PPG, so I'd say they were pretty soft targets. Maybe
> Sheridan could have killed the shadow that attacked him.
Those guns were a lot heavier than Sheridan pistol version and were
Centauri tech, which is a step up on human. They're not as tough as
Vorlon-in-a-shell or even out of it, but they don't cook like human.
--
R. Dan Henry (danh...@inreach.com)
"When I say run, act like a chicken!" -- The Doctor,
Tomb of the Cybermen, first draft
Matthew Melmon
In article <5dohqg$o...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
mbr...@ix.netcom.com(Matb) wrote:
> >This supports the contention that the two species are
> >similar in their kick-assness. If they were evenly
> >matched, one on one would be fifty-fifty. Not a good
> >idea if you want to be sure the other guy dies. Two
> >on one, maybe one of your guys dies. Three on one,
> >that's a pretty unfair fight.
>
> ...And then two Centauri gundudes toss a lot of buttwhip and nail two
> Shadows with a long burst.
Yes, well. There you have it. Little bang bangs kill
Shadows after all.
> Guess Vorlon/Shadow strength is all dependent on plot..
That Kosh. All he needed was to pack a piece. Bang bang
bang. Three dead Shadows. Stupid fucking Vorlon.
Matb
>That Kosh. All he needed was to pack a piece. Bang bang
>bang. Three dead Shadows. Stupid fucking Vorlon.
Come to think of it, Kosh didn't have that hood-zappy-thangmabob Dark
Kosh had, did he?
Again, it's all plot... I suppose Kosh knew it was his time to go.
-M
Bevis Yeo Wee Meng
In-Reply-To: <mattm-07029...@melmma1.apple.com>
I feel that the Vorlons are individually a little tougher than a Shadow.
Granted i haven't seen to many episodes compared to you guys (given our
stupid tv syndicates) but from what i see the shdows are equal to the
vorlons because of superior numbers. Granted that Kosh is a older
Vorlon.. the odds of three Shadows against him would be pretty good odds
still for the Shadows. Maybe 70:30
Bevis Yeo Wee Meng
R. Dan Henry
orionca wrote:
[spoiler space...]
> From the look and sound of those PPG blasters, I'd hazard that the
> Centauri gunsmith was NOT worried about scorching bulkheads when he
> designed these.
They seemed to be the heavy machine gun version. Given that Sheridan was
able to fight his way past a Shadow, if not kill it, with his pistol
PPG, I have no problem with the Centauri being able to toast a couple.
> It's interesting to note that once the Centauri withdrew from around
> Morden, (1) the guards knew exactly where to shoot and (2) the Shadows
> just stood there with their mouths (figuratively) open.
(1) The Shadows can be seen on properly tuned scanners, I'm sure
Centauri intelligence managed to figure this one out by this time. Then
it's only a matter of observing to note that the Shadows usually stand
in the same place relative to Morden. Plus the guards could have had
scanners.
(2) They were not expecting the Centauri to resist so firmly. The
Shadows aren't big on recognizing when the young races are about to
stomp on them. They haven't exactly seen the Centauri standing tall
before, either. I doubt they imagined that the Centauri could hold their
emperor in more awe and fear than the Shadows.
Matthew Melmon
In article <330621...@inreach.com>, "R. Dan Henry"
<danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
> orionca wrote:
>
> [spoiler space...]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From the look and sound of those PPG blasters, I'd hazard that the
> > Centauri gunsmith was NOT worried about scorching bulkheads when he
> > designed these.
>
> They seemed to be the heavy machine gun version. Given that Sheridan was
> able to fight his way past a Shadow, if not kill it, with his pistol
> PPG, I have no problem with the Centauri being able to toast a couple.
Sheridan is the sticking point. The fact that the Shadows
and the Vorlon had a physical confrontation makes him the
sticking point. If we'd never seen the two species fight,
one could argue that the Shadows were, for whatever reason,
more vulnerable than the Vorlon.
That isn't the case.
The Shadows killed Kosh. Human ppg's did not do shit
to a Vorlon "younger" than Kosh (whatever that means).
There were several hundred rounds pumped into that
Vorlon, who was simultaneously being zapped by lightning.
Only when God intervened did the caca hit the fan.
Sheridan had one little ppg. He *could* *not* have
hurt that Shadow if the story is in any way, shape, or
form consistent.
Now, the Centauri are more advanced than the humans.
Maybe their bang-bangs are more effective. At least there
were a lot of rounds fired. The scene was vaguely implausible,
but not necessarily stupid beyond belief. Sheridan's miraculous
escape from Z'ha'dum was stupid beyond belief.
Jethrick
Matthew Melmon <ma...@apple.com> wrote:
> In article <3310e1fa...@news.earthlink.net>, ori...@earthlink.net
> (orionca) wrote:
>
> > The Vorlons & Shadows had an agreement NOT to directly interfere in each
> > other's projects. Kosh broke the agreement. Those weren't 'guards'
> > sent= to kill Kosh: Those were executioners.
>
> Oh. Uh-huh. They looked remarkable like the Shadows on Z'ha'dum.
>
Sorry I just _have_ to add my 2c worth.
If you were a Shadow how in the hell could you be _sure_ you could tell
one pink hairless ape from another?
Can you tell one sheep from another or, more importantly, one Drazi from
another? I doubt it.
So how the hell can you claim to look at a (fairly insubstantial) Shadow
and say "Shit that was just a grunt not the Shadow's SAS equivalent"
nevermind wether it was a _major_ telepath?!
Argh! Stop picking holes in other people arguments when yours are just
as bad.
Jethrick
Matthew Melmon
In article <1997021812...@lon7-57.ukonline.co.uk>,
liam....@ukonline.co.uk (Jethrick) wrote:
> If you were a Shadow how in the hell could you be _sure_ you could tell
> one pink hairless ape from another?
>
> Can you tell one sheep from another or, more importantly, one Drazi from
> another? I doubt it.
>
> So how the hell can you claim to look at a (fairly insubstantial) Shadow
> and say "Shit that was just a grunt not the Shadow's SAS equivalent"
> nevermind wether it was a _major_ telepath?!
Shadows were with Morden when he talked to Londo on B5. Shadows
were with Morden when he entered Kosh's quarters. Shadows were
with Morden on Centauri Prime. In each case, the Shadows with
Morden looked exactly the same.
So tell us, in the complete and total absence of anything
which has ever happened on the show to suggest that there
are different Shadows with Morden at any given time, from
which body opening are you pulling that absurd invention?
jkw...@aol.com
>The Shadows killed Kosh. Human ppg's did not do shit
>to a Vorlon "younger" than Kosh (whatever that means).
>There were several hundred rounds pumped into that
>Vorlon, who was simultaneously being zapped by lightning.
>Only when God intervened did the caca hit the fan.
Does the Phrase "Encouter suit" mean anything here?
Jekell
Unsolicited e-mail will not be tolerated
Robert Holland
The same encounter suit through which Kosh was poisoned in
the pilot?
--RH
Andrew Crisp
by surprise, and so had his/her/its defenses down.
Kosh 2 could see the showdown coming "a mile away" and had time (even if
only a few seconds, to batten down the hatches (sorry about the mixed
metaphors).
Um, isn't this supposed to be about Garibaldi? I doubt he was a
"traitor" between the time he was "rescued" and the episode "Epiphanies"
-- that was, with some minor changes, the real Garibaldi. But that
message he got at the start of epiphanies must have activated some
programming, which might be changing Garibaldi at subtle levels.
Question: is Garibaldi aware that _something_ is happening to him (the
occasional flashbacks he recieves?) What about the security personnel
that first detected and tried to track that message before Garibaldi
erased it? Will they clam up about it or will Sheridan learn about the
"message" (if only of its existence?) And what is Garibaldi being
primed to do?
Stay tuned... ;)
--
Andrew B. Crisp
JCET
NBCC Moncton
Part-Time Science Fiction writer