Abuse of this newsgroup by JMS (re: Ellison TREK Book ad)
Dennis O'Connor
You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
violation of nettiquette :
1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
to r.a.sf.t.b5.
This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
product ads.
It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
--
---
Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
BlairLwood
of like what friends are for, to support your work and let other people
know about it. I certainly don't disagree with your right to take issue
with the use of this forum, but I'm not sure that such incendiary language
is called for. BTW, do try to remember that if it weren't for jms and
harlan, we wouldn't have anything to discuss here--I am willing to cut
them some slack.
Robert Joseph Skowronski
Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>violation of nettiquette :
>
> 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
> 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
>to r.a.sf.t.b5.
Ah, you obviously haven't been reading r.a.s.t.b5 for very long (or
have only been reading a small subset of the posts). Harlan Ellison *is* a
valid topic of discussion on r.a.s.t.b5 (at least until something like
alt.fan.ellison comes into existence -- last time I had checked, it had
not). Besides the fact that Ellison is a creative consultant for B5,
there was a recent flame fest here on the very topic the book in JMS's
"ad" purports to expound upon. Reading JMS's post, I assumed it was a
response in that vein (remember JMS's responses do not thread properly, at
least on most newsreaders they do not), or an attempt to point us to the
facts in order to prevent a rekindling of that flame war.
>
>This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
>not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
>product ads.
I agree that posting Star Trek product ads on r.a.s.t.b5 would
indeed be loathsome, but I have no doubt that that was *not* JMS's intention.
>
>It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
Ah, another example of your lack of... perspective.
>--
>---
>Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
>dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
---
Be Seeing You
Elton John Tucker
: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
: violation of nettiquette :
: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
: 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
: to r.a.sf.t.b5.
: This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
: not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
: product ads.
: It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
: --
: ---
: Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
: dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
Just a quick question... what are you talking about?
I remember Joe posting something to the effect that there was
going to be some release/event happening with Ellison's work
(vaguely remember that is). I thought it was rather appropriate
in the light of the recent discussions of Ellison and his work,
including his ST stuff.
If you're talking about something else, fire me off a copy I'd
like to see what's bothered you.
* Elton Tucker, BComm ejtu...@acs.ucalgary.ca *
* http://www.ucalgary.ca/~ejtucker *
*"The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed. But,*
* in the Year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, *
* best hope for... victory. The year is 2260. The place: Babylon 5." *
Eli Lehrer
: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
: violation of nettiquette :
: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
: 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
: to r.a.sf.t.b5.
: This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
: not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
: product ads.
: It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
From a personal stanpoint, I have no problem with this sort of advertisment.
Jms was, as far as I am concerned, giving the group information about
something that might well be of interest to members of this group. So far
as I know, he has no personal stake in the book. New products of all
sorts come up all the time in newsgroups: the net would be pretty quiet
if it wasn't for them.
--
Eli Lehrer -- ea...@cornell.edu or e...@wwa.com
Jay Denebeim
>not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
>product ads.
Well, I agree somewhat, however since Harlan is involved with the
show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
Jay
--
Sig under construction
Jay Denebeim dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Franklin Hummel
[ Who must be really, really new to this newsgroup ]
wrote:
>>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>>violation of nettiquette :
>
>> 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
JMS (and many, many others) has posted information about
the availability B5 comic, hats, T-shirts, etc. etc. here many times
before, often in response to people here asking for this information. So??
>> 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
>>to r.a.sf.t.b5.
Yeah, like everyone always, always says on topic in this and
every other newsgroup.
Mountain out of a molehill. Tempest in a tea pot. The wrong
side of the bed.
--
-- Frank Hummel [ hum...@netcom.com ]
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
NecronomiCon, 2nd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention
Danvers, Massachusetts, August 18-20, 1995
For information: P.O. Box 1320, Back Bay Annex, Boston, MA 02117 USA
Theron Fuller
MacIntyre) writes:
(Stuff Deleted)
>>It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
>
>Ehm, yeah right. And what would that point be? ?:-\
Well, >my< point is that the same set of standards should apply to
everyone on this newsgroup, Joe Straczynski as well.
Anything that is a breach of netiquette for us normal mortals is also a
breach of netiquette for Joe Straczynski.
And a corollary point is that abuses carried out in the defense of Joe
Straczynski, or in the name of Joe Straczynski, or because Joe
Straczynski called for them to be carried out are still abuses.
>
>One bad post cannot justify a comparison to the Mansonesque ramblings
>of Ford "the net stalker" Thaxton. Please don't even consider them in
>the same context. Its like comparing Mother Theresa to Jack the
>Ripper. (Apologies for the pun to those who know what I'm on about).
>
It's not just one bad post by Joe Straczynski. It's the combined
effects of those posts that are minor abuses by Joe Straczynski,
combined with the excesses of extremists who justify their actions on
the basis of defending Joe Straczynski and the Babylon 5 series.
It's far past time to restore some degree of balance to this newsgroup.
One place to start is to have one standard of participation that
applies to everyone who posts here--and that includes Joe Straczynski,
Theron Fuller, and Ford Thaxton.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Dennis O'Connor
e...@miso.wwa.com (Eli Lehrer) wrote:
] Dennis O'Connor (dm...@primenet.com) wrote:
]
] : You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
] : but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
] : violation of nettiquette :
]
] : 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
]
] : to r.a.sf.t.b5.
]
] : This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
] : not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
] : product ads.
] : It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
]
] From a personal stanpoint, I have no problem with this sort of advertisment.
] something that might well be of interest to members of this group.
This is, of course, the EXACT rationel that the "Make Money Fast"
spammers use. tell us, eli, what products or services do _not_
fall int he "might well be of interest to members of this group"
category ?
] So far as I know, he has no personal stake in the book.
Bullshit. Harlen Ellison is one of his close friends.
That makes it a personal stake.
] New products of all
] sorts come up all the time in newsgroups: the net would be pretty quiet
] if it wasn't for them.
If you mean there's be less flames, you'd be right.
Other than that, you are dead wrong.
Dennis O'Connor
blair...@aol.com (BlairLwood) wrote:
] Personally, I thought it was a very supportive thing for him to do...
So is killing your friends' enemies. Doesn't make it right.
] of like what friends are for, to support your work and let other people
] know about it. I certainly don't disagree with your right to take issue
] with the use of this forum, but I'm not sure that such incendiary language
] is called for.
I am. I've seen far worse used on non-celebrities who posted ads.
] BTW, do try to remember that if it weren't for jms and
] harlan, we wouldn't have anything to discuss here--I am willing to cut
] them some slack.
This the "abuse of celebrity" I mentioned. How much slack, fan-boy ?
Dennis O'Connor
ejtu...@acs2.acs.ucalgary.ca (Elton John Tucker) wrote:
]
] Dennis O'Connor (dm...@primenet.com) wrote:
]
] : You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
] : but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
] : violation of nettiquette :
]
] : 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
] : 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
]
] : to r.a.sf.t.b5.
]
] : This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
] : not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
] : product ads.
]
] : It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
] : ---
] : Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
] : dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
] Just a quick question... what are you talking about?
Go read the JMS post titled "Ellison TREK book".
Maybe it hasn't made it to your spool yet. USENET is
like that.
Dennis O'Connor
dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
]
] In article <DMOC.95Au...@usr5.primenet.com>,] >This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
] >not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
] >product ads.
]
] show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
] if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
If it was a book about B5, no.
If it was a TREK book, yes : Trek books can be hawked in
the Trek newsgroups, can they not ?
Dennis O'Connor
sco...@leapfrog.almac.co.uk (Scott MacIntyre) wrote:
] dm...@primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor) wrote:
]
] >You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
] >but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
] >violation of nettiquette :
]
] > 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
] > 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
]
] >to r.a.sf.t.b5.
]
] >not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
] >product ads.
]
]
] OK so he essentially posted an ad for Harlan's new book. Given the
] amount of interest shown in this group for Harlan's work didn't it
] cross your mind that perhaps JMS thought he was doing people a favour
] by letting them know that it was probably worth reading. [...]
Just like all the "Make Money Fast" posters. They are _all_
"doing you a favor". All advertisers are. By your logic,
anyone could post an ad for anything to anyt newsgroup, as
long as they think they are doing it's readers "a favor".
Timothy W. Lynch
I've got one question for Dennis:
Had JMS not posted the ad here, someone would have reposted it here
from GEnie, pretty much guaranteed. Would that have been equally
upsetting? If not, why not?
Okay, that's two questions. Carry on. :-)
Tim Lynch
Jay Denebeim
>If it was a book about B5, no.
>If it was a TREK book, yes : Trek books can be hawked in
>the Trek newsgroups, can they not ?
What if it was a new novel or his long awaited update to his complete
scriptwriting book? (doubtful he'd be doing a novel with all those B5
characters running around in his mind. If a non-b5 character
appeared, Ivanova would rip their heads off, and that would be a mess)
Not by jms. As you well know, Joe's gateway only posts to rastb5. I
don't know what groups he posted to on genie and CI$.
Again, I was not real happy with the blaitant commercialisim. I
wasn't too thrilled with jms's first Big Bang post either. However,
a big flame war on the very subject the book is about had just
concluded on the newsgroup, and HE *is* involved with the show after
all, even if it only includes hanging out with Joe and poking holes in
his plots.
I'm not thrilled with any commercialisim on usenet beit from jms,
uncomyn gifts, these cons that keep advertising, or whoever. On topic
stuff (which anything produced by someone involved in the show is IMO)
I'll give them.
If jms hadn't phrased the post as ad copy, I don't think we'd be
having this conversation. If he had fit it into the flame war, nobody
would be complaining.
Oh yeah, and for people who've said Mr. O'Connor is a newby, that's
not the case, he's been posting here as long as I have, just not the
last couple of months.
Jay Denebeim
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>Had JMS not posted the ad here, someone would have reposted it here
>from GEnie, pretty much guaranteed. Would that have been equally
>upsetting? If not, why not?
Actually, it was posted from genie. I don't know which one DO was
referring to actually.
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <40lbod$a...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>Had JMS not posted the ad here, someone would have reposted it here
>>from GEnie, pretty much guaranteed. Would that have been equally
>>upsetting? If not, why not?
>Actually, it was posted from genie.
No, actually, it wasn't. The first I saw of it was a direct post from
JMS to *here*. Yes, technically, that's "from genie", but that's not
what I mean and I doubt it's what you mean.
>I don't know which one DO was referring to actually.
Evidently, which is why I'd prefer you not try to make corrections in
this instance.
Tim Lynch
Jay Denebeim
>>Actually, it was posted from genie.
Sorry, not enough coffee, I ment to say "Actually, it was posted from
genie too".
>No, actually, it wasn't. The first I saw of it was a direct post from
>JMS to *here*. Yes, technically, that's "from genie", but that's not
>what I mean and I doubt it's what you mean.
>
>>I don't know which one DO was referring to actually.
>
>Evidently, which is why I'd prefer you not try to make corrections in
>this instance.
It was posted twice. Once from genie (now that I think of it, perhaps
it was a Green Meddler post from CI$) by someone else, once here. As
I was saying, I don't know which one Dennis O'Conner was referring to
in his post because it wasn't on a thread.
Not that it really matters, the text was identical in both cases.
lily...@aquilagroup.com
Theron Fuller writes:
> (Stuff Deleted)
>
> >>It almost makes me think Ford Thaxton and the Fullers have a point.
> >
>
> Well, >my< point is that the same set of standards should apply to
> everyone on this newsgroup, Joe Straczynski as well.
>
> Anything that is a breach of netiquette for us normal mortals is also a
> breach of netiquette for Joe Straczynski.
Okay, let me get this straight. JMS knows that a lot of us like Harlan
Ellison, and that a lot of us are/were Trekkies. Therefore, he tells about a
book BY Harlan Ellison ABOUT StarTrek. Sure, it's technically off charter, but
it's still likely to be of interest to a LOT of us.
So posting this info, which many people wanted, is now a breach of netiquette?
Thank goodness not everyone has this view -- or the Internet would shut down
completely.
Lily-Rose
lily...@aquilagroup.com
Dennis F. Hefferman
|I've got distinctly mixed feelings about the Ellison "ad" myself, but
|I've got one question for Dennis:
The other Dennis, he means. ;-)
|Had JMS not posted the ad here, someone would have reposted it here
|from GEnie, pretty much guaranteed. Would that have been equally
|upsetting? If not, why not?
In point of fact: a repost of his message on GEnie _preceded_ his post
on the matter at my site by at least a day.
I therefore fail to see how this matter constitutes a threat to the
cosmic order of the universe.
To the other Dennis: read the .sig.
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: Macavity heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
inner child and kick its little ass!" -- Don Henley/Glenn Fry, "Get Over It"
Jasen V Edralin
: dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
: ]
: ] In article <DMOC.95Au...@usr5.primenet.com>,
: ] Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
: ] >This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
: ] >not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
: ] >product ads.
: ]
: ] Well, I agree somewhat, however since Harlan is involved with the
: ] show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
: ] if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
: If it was a book about B5, no.
: If it was a TREK book, yes : Trek books can be hawked in
: the Trek newsgroups, can they not ?
: --
: ---
: Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
: dm...@primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
Not by Joe. Actually, its not as rude for him to do this simply due to
the fact that he can ONLY get this newsgroup---if he wants to say
something, he says it here. And really, a lot of jms posts have had very
little to do with B5, though not as commercially oriented...for instance,
he's discussed at length, "Murder She Wronte", "Ghostbusters" and
"Captain Power" as well as several insider things about the industry. Is
he "off topic" for that?
Yes. But many on the group find these discussions interesting. Mr.
Ellison is involved with B5 and a book, although dealing with Trek,
probably can give an insight into his reasons for working with B5, and as
such, is debatably on topic.
I think the thing that annoyed you was the commercial aspect of the post.
-Marc
jere7my tho?rpe
John Vornholt saying "My new B5 book is coming out soon; it'll be cool!"
Me saying "I got the B5 Micromachines! Hey, they're really neat!"
Elana saying "Here's where you can order the B5 CD; it costs $X."
But you _do_ have a problem with JMS saying "Harlan has a new book
coming out; it's cool; here's how to order it." So clearly the problem is
not with posting advertisements. Is it a problem with posting non-B5
related advertisements? If so, then why don't people have a problem with:
JMS talking about his scriptwriting book, or _Othersyde_, or "M,SW"?
people mentioning that Peter David will have a new SF show with Bill Mumy?
discussion of how _Imzadi_ is the Trek book everybody should read?
my post strongly recommending _A Fire Upon the Deep_ to B5 viewers?
Harlan is someone involved with B5; therefore, new books of his are
tangentially B5-related, just as are the non-B5-related books of Peter
David, John Vornholt, Lois Tilton, and JMS. If you're going to raise a
fuss about JMS' "abuse of celebrity," you should have done the same to all
those other folks. Frankly, I think this is abuse of _a_ celebrity--he's
a more visible target, so he gets more flak for doing things which are
perfectly fine when others do them.
JMS posted a message about a book which one of his friends wrote.
He's not getting any money for posting the message; he's simply
disseminating information to people who might be interested in it. (I.e.
B5 fans, many of whom are Ellison and/or Star Trek fans.) And while it
may be somewhat uncouth, it's no less couth than when everybody else does
it. Frankly, I think the people who yell that JMS gets special treatment
are, in fact, the ones treating him differently, holding him up to closer
scrutiny than anyone else.
----j7y
**************************** <*> ****************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Arf, arf."
Physicist and Artist Guy The sound of certain death in
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu the land of the 50-ton dogs.
(610) 604-0669 (Mister Boffo)
Brian Siano
: This is baloney. Let me say it right now:
: JMS, *thank you* for posting the ad about Harlan's book.
: I don't read any of the ST newsgroups. I've been looking for *years* for
: a copy of the original tCotEoF script. I ordered a copy of this book as
: soon as I could get the company on the phone.
: I agree that the newsgroup shouldn't be used for product promotion in
: general. But I very much think of this as a special case.
I guess that makes me really lucky. There's a copy of the
original script at the University of pennsylvania's Annenberg library.
(No, I will NOT copy it or scan it in for anyone; buy the book when it
comes out.)
And frankly, it's nice that JMS posted about the book: it
didn't strike me as off-topic, there's a lot of Ellison fans here, and
even if i didn't want the book, I could just as easily have skipped
past it.
--
Brian Siano - si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
"There are four things required for the nourishment of the soul:
passion, delight, stability, and meaning. So just _why_ are all four
considered 'marketable products?'"
Robert Merritt
Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
>In article <DMOC.95Au...@usr5.primenet.com>,
>Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
>>not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
>>product ads.
>
>Well, I agree somewhat, however since Harlan is involved with the
>show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
>if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
>
Thats my biggest complaint. If that ad was a book by JMS OR the post was
by Ellison, I wouldn't care. Hell, if it was a book on B5 by Ellison I
wouldn't care. However, Ellison has gone out of his way to put down
Star Trek AND people who use internet. I don't know. I'm not good with
words nor am I very good at putting my thoughs into words. I just feel
hurt by Joe posting an ad for a Star Trek book by Ellison on the internet.
Rob Merritt
Kip Ingram
JMS, *thank you* for posting the ad about Harlan's book.
I don't read any of the ST newsgroups. I've been looking for *years* for
a copy of the original tCotEoF script. I ordered a copy of this book as
soon as I could get the company on the phone.
I agree that the newsgroup shouldn't be used for product promotion in
general. But I very much think of this as a special case.
--
Kip Ingram k.in...@mail.utexas.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In that perfect hour all shadows had left earth and sky, and but form and
colour remained: form, as a differing of color from color, rather than as
a matter of line and edge (which indeed were departed with the shadows).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
O===|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|===O
Kurt Reisler
[Troll-speak removed]
>Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
I think that says it all most eloquently.
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
<*> Ignore the petty dysfunctional, and the CRI fiends <*>
Jay Denebeim
Robert Merritt <rob...@online1.magnus1.com> wrote:
>Thats my biggest complaint. If that ad was a book by JMS OR the post was
>by Ellison, I wouldn't care. Hell, if it was a book on B5 by Ellison I
>wouldn't care. However, Ellison has gone out of his way to put down
>Star Trek AND people who use internet. I don't know. I'm not good with
>words nor am I very good at putting my thoughs into words. I just feel
>hurt by Joe posting an ad for a Star Trek book by Ellison on the internet.
People post stuff for friends without net access all the time. Just
because we're dealing with a couple of famous people here doesn't mean
that they should be treated any differently.
Since Harlan is on the credits, his VOICE was on every episode of B5
until the middle of the second season fer crying out loud, something
he does is B5 related IMO. It's not like we don't discuss him here
all the time (he might even hear some of what's posted).
Also, as has been pointed out ad nausium, this is the only group jms
CAN post to, so it's not like he should have put it in ras.current or
something.
Jay
(Doing his bit to convert that carcuss into a greasy spot)
--
Sig under construction
Jay Denebeim dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
John Robinson
>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>violation of nettiquette :
> 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
> 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
>to r.a.sf.t.b5.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit on the long side given that the
book's subject matter wasn't B5-related. However, a shorter
advert for the book (which *is* by one of the B5 'team', after
all) wouldn't have bothered me at all.
>This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
>not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
>product ads.
"Loathsome"! Take a deep breath and count to ten ... :-)
Harlan Ellison is involved with B5, so it isn't that unreasonable
to bring Ellison-related matters to our attention. After all, I
seem to recall the odd posting bringing non-B5 work by Mira
Furlan, Claudia Christian et al to our attention: the posters of
those 'ads' weren't criticised, so why should JMS be?
Also, I think it's fair to say that a significant minority (at
least!) of the subscribers to this group have demonstrated an
interest (whether as fans or critics) in ST as well as B5. Is it
really so dreadful that someone (be it JMS or anyone else) let us
know of the publication of a book that at least some subscribers
to this group are likely to be interested in? A post advertising
a book about Cookery or Michael Jackson or Windoze 95 would be
out of place here, but I had no objection to the subject matter
of JMS's post.
I do agree that the post was on the long side: a shorter posting
describing the book's subject matter more briefly and passing on
the publisher's phone number would have been better. I just can't
see what justified the use of the term 'loathsome', unless of
course the reader is so anti-Trek that the mere mention of the
programme's name offends him/her!
Having criticised the length of JMS's posting, I suppose should
shut up now. :-)
John "The Beard" Robinson
"If a train station is where a train stops, what is a workstation?"
Theron Fuller
(Stuff Deleted)
>Okay, let me get this straight. JMS knows that a lot of us like
>Harlan Ellison, and that a lot of us are/were Trekkies. Therefore, he
>tells about a book BY Harlan Ellison ABOUT StarTrek. Sure, it's
technically off charter, but it's still likely to be of interest to a
LOT of us.
>
>So posting this info, which many people wanted, is now a breach of
>netiquette?
>
> Thank goodness not everyone has this view -- or the Internet would
>shut down
If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
the Ellison book.
The blatant commercialism of the post is what I object to. I would
have no problem if Joe Straczynski had made an announcement of the
type: "Fans of Harlan Ellison will be pleased to know his new Star
Trek book is out...." But this is a full-blown commercial
advertisement of the most blatant kind.
Shucks, I've recommended a couple of recently released compilations of
Cordwainer Smiths works (completely off the subject of Babylon 5). And
I've followed with interest Rob Furr's (commercial) efforts here to
develop and take orders for a Babylon 5 shirt. I didn't mind the
Friends of Michael O'Hare solicitating participation in his charity
event. So, obviously I don't mind these types of posts.
But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release posted
both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
Denebeim) writes:
(Stuff Deleted)
>People post stuff for friends without net access all the time. Just
>because we're dealing with a couple of famous people here doesn't mean
>that they should be treated any differently.
Exactly! If you or I had posted a full-blown commercial press release
for one of our friends, we'd have been flamed for weeks about it.
Also, the circumstances in this case make it appear that Harlan Ellison
considers himself above interacting with people like you and me on the
Internet, but he isn't above having someone shill his book for him here
so he can make some money off us.
>
>Since Harlan is on the credits, his VOICE was on every episode of B5
>until the middle of the second season fer crying out loud, something
>he does is B5 related IMO. It's not like we don't discuss him here
>all the time (he might even hear some of what's posted).
I've read announcements about Babylon 5 Micro Machines, trading cards,
shirts, caps, comic books, novels, and lots of other stuff. I've read
posts soliciting participation in Michael O'Hare's favorite charity.
I've read an onging thread about Rob Furr's t-shirt venture. No
problems. But this is the first full-blown press release for a
non-Babylon 5 commercial product I've seen here.
>
>Also, as has been pointed out ad nausium, this is the only group jms
>CAN post to, so it's not like he should have put it in ras.current or
>something.
So, why didn't he ask someone vie e-mail to forward the press release
to the appropriate news group?
If Joe Straczynski wants to post an advertisement for some real estate
venture Harlan Ellison has an interest in, does that make this
newsgroup the appropriate place?
Regards,
Theron Fuller
jfb
>Well, >my< point is that the same set of standards should apply to
>everyone on this newsgroup, Joe Straczynski as well.
I for one do not give a rat's ass whether or not "Joe Straczynski" commits
breaches of netiquette. His participation here is so welcome and great
that he is welcome to abuse netiquette all he wants as far as I am concerned
(and I bet a whole lot of us here feel the same).
But... I have yet to see any such abuse. The Ellison Ad is perfectly on
topic on serveral points. Ads per se are not banned. Ellison is part of
B5, being a creative consultant. The development of B5 and of the original
star trek has been compared and contrasted in the past in this group. Etc.
--
John Baskette j...@kaiwan.com
http://www.power.net/users/aia/
(Answers In Action home page, devoted to cult research and apologetics.)
jfb
jfb
Steven McCluney
ful...@ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller ) wrote:
>
>If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
>full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the Ellison book.
>
[other stuff omitted]
>Regards,
>Theron Fuller
But it wasn't exactly "self-serving". It was Ellison's book, after all.
Steven McC.
****************************************************************************
* Steven McCluney | "Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, *
* s.mcc...@bre.com | is no basis for a system of government!" *
************************************************** Dennis, to King Arthur **
Brian Siano
: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
: violation of nettiquette :
: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
As opposed to a _subtle_ advertisement, which-- given that
you're stressing the word "blatant"-- you'd find acceptable?
Brian Siano
: Thats my biggest complaint. If that ad was a book by JMS OR the post was
: by Ellison, I wouldn't care. Hell, if it was a book on B5 by Ellison I
: wouldn't care. However, Ellison has gone out of his way to put down
: Star Trek AND people who use internet. I don't know. I'm not good with
: words nor am I very good at putting my thoughs into words. I just feel
: hurt by Joe posting an ad for a Star Trek book by Ellison on the internet.
: Rob Merritt
Let me get this straight. Ellison was invoved with the
original show, has had difficulties with Roddenberry, is proud of the
work he did on his original scripts, and now wants people to know what
he'd originallywanted for the show, so he's published a book that's
been advertised on a Star Trek newsgroup. Seems perfectly fine to me.
So you take issue with the fact that Ellison is very critical
of the show, and of Internetters as well. Well, _big deal_. I'm not a
Trek follower these days, but I doubt that such objections would be
raised for, say an appearance by James Doohan (who apparently tells
some unflattering stories about Bill Shatner) or the recent Roddenbery
bio by Joel someone-or-other, which is apparently very critical of
Roddenberry. In other words, there's ample precedent for people who
are critical of elements of Star Trek to advertise their wares to Star
trek fans.
As for people who are critical of the Internet's users-- what,
are you an unqualified fan of everyone who logs on? Hell, an appalling
number of people on the Net have struck me as being only slightly more
interesting than horseshoe crabs.
So what possible reason is there to object to the ad?
Brian Siano
: If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
: full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
: the Ellison book.
"self-serving advertisement?" is there any other _kind_?
: The blatant commercialism of the post is what I object to.
And just what do you prefer? _Subtle_ or _hidden_
commercialism?
Please refrain from using terms like 'self-serving" and
"blatant" until you understand their proper use, please.
I would
: have no problem if Joe Straczynski had made an announcement of the
: type: "Fans of Harlan Ellison will be pleased to know his new Star
: Trek book is out...." But this is a full-blown commercial
: advertisement of the most blatant kind.
So is your proposed text.
: Shucks, I've recommended a couple of recently released compilations of
: Cordwainer Smiths works (completely off the subject of Babylon 5). And
: I've followed with interest Rob Furr's (commercial) efforts here to
: develop and take orders for a Babylon 5 shirt. I didn't mind the
: Friends of Michael O'Hare solicitating participation in his charity
: event. So, obviously I don't mind these types of posts.
So what problem could you have with the JMS post?
: But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release posted
: both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
Too much what? Now, maybe I'm unique in this, but I have the
option to skip over a post or two if it seems like it's going to go on
at length. I'd suggest you speak to your Net provider to learn how to
do this.
Curtis Andrew Phillips
About your infantile rantings:
<CR> STANDARD BONEHEAD REPLY FORM (Version 1.04):<CR>
[X] Oh grow up.<CR>
[ ] Your email address is broken, fix it please.<CR>
[ ] Your misspellings and grammar usage indicate that your post
was far too long for any actual thoughts you might have put
into it.<CR>
[ ] Please post *only* binaries to the binaries group.<CR>
[ ] You forgot your ObHack! {Oops, wrong group...}<CR>
[ ] No, no-one's going to send you an XXX FTP site.<CR>
[X] Find and read the FAQ, please.<CR>
[X] Find and read the FAQ! *Now*!<CR>
[ ] You have been told this before.<CR>
[ ] My, what a lovely curseword vocabulary. I'm impressed. Not.<CR>
[ ] Please don't start the JPG/GIF Wars again.<CR>
[ ] Please *email* to posters asking for reposts if possible,
instead of wasting hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars
*posting* about it (especially if the original posts are
still here).<CR>
[ ] No, there's no .avi player for the Mac.<CR>
[X} You may not be sufficiently mature to handle reading this
newsgroup; please consult your News administrator.<CR>
[X] Excuse me, but your ignorance is showing.
[X] Killfile meet Troll; Troll, Killfile. I thought you two
should get acquanted since it appears that you're going to
spend a lot of time together. <CR>
<CR>
Carlos G Diaz III
Merritt) writes:
>
>In article <40jvk9$b...@deepthot.cary.nc.us>,
>Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
>>>not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
>>>product ads.
>>
>>show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
>>if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
>>
>>Jay
was
>by Ellison, I wouldn't care. Hell, if it was a book on B5 by Ellison I
>wouldn't care. However, Ellison has gone out of his way to put down
>Star Trek AND people who use internet. I don't know. I'm not good with
>words nor am I very good at putting my thoughs into words. I just feel
>hurt by Joe posting an ad for a Star Trek book by Ellison on the
internet.
>Rob Merritt
>
anti-computer and anti-Internet, he is old school and is proud to still
use a typewriter. I recall watching a comentary by him were he states
he has no beef against bulletin boards and the net, he does have a beef
for those who use it to slander and offend others. This was on a Sci fi
Buzz on the SF Channel a few months back, I remember it because he came
back a few seconds later to clarify his point and stated he was not
speaking out against the net, just those few who abuse it for there
sick and twisted purposes.
As for Star Trek, well he did write the best TOS episode, even though
it was somewhat different from his original story, and for
advertisements, I think if you eleminated that you would cut most net
traffic in half. Live with it, if Cigarette companies can sneak ads
into sporting events on TV then why can't anyone post some information
that some of use might actually want to know.
Carlos'94
Leviathan
<And, BTW, this is a teeny snippet taken completely out of context...>
Harlan Ellison *is* a
>valid topic of discussion on r.a.s.t.b5 (at least until something like
>alt.fan.ellison comes into existence -- last time I had checked, it had
>not).
alt.fan.harlan-ellison *does* exist.
Jonathan Andrew Sheen
http://www.iii.net/users/jsheen/
Leviathan of the GEI (Detached.)
jsh...@levstu.iii.net
Sig? No, thanks. I don't smoke....
Chris K
related to B5 so we can talk about him and his work just like we talk about
JMS' work, Claudia Christian's work, etc.", then could someone remind us all
specifically what he does? Besides the "babylonian productions" voiceover
at the end of the show?
Does he review scripts, suggest subplots, give feedback on character
motivations, help with costuming, write the music, what?
Perhaps he's Kosh...?
curiously,
Chris
Bernard HP Gilroy
>Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Well, >my< point is that the same set of standards should apply to
>>everyone on this newsgroup, Joe Straczynski as well.
>
>I for one do not give a rat's ass whether or not "Joe Straczynski" commits
>breaches of netiquette. His participation here is so welcome and great
>that he is welcome to abuse netiquette all he wants as far as I am concerned
>(and I bet a whole lot of us here feel the same).
indifference to this whole thread. I don't think we should give
_anyone_ free reign on the group. Everybody owes everyone else some
simple courtesy and consideration. Did this post cross that line? I
dunno. I just wince whenever anyone encourages anyone else to erase
that line completely.
Isn't a major theme in B5 turning out to be, "Never surrender
to authority"? Do we really need to set JMS up as a golden idol
beyond the realm or ken of mortals?
Bernard HP Gilroy -- gil...@leland.stanford.edu -- <b|Hp|g>
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~gilroy
"It's easy to be a pacifist when the war is over."
-- Joanne Jacobs, San Jose _Mercury News_ 1995 August 7
Theron Fuller
>I for one do not give a rat's ass whether or not "Joe Straczynski"
>commits breaches of netiquette. His participation here is so welcome
>and great that he is welcome to abuse netiquette all he wants as far
>as I am concerned
>(and I bet a whole lot of us here feel the same).
If the "Joe Straczynski can do no wrong on this newsgroup" attitude
stopped there, I would support it wholeheartedly. For years, I've
bought albums by bands that are notorious for using drugs, trashing
hotel rooms, exposing themselves on stage, and various other forms of
uncivilized and rude behavior. So, whatever Joe Straczynski personally
does on this newsgroup doesn't bother me much. I ain't no prude.
But certain people on this newsgroup don't know where to draw the line.
Some people here reason that if Joe Straczynski does something on this
newsgroup, since they admire him so much, they are justified in doing
the same sorts of thing. And if Joe Straczynski is really outrageous
in what he does, they follow suit. Any sort of behavior carried to any
excess is OK if they're just emulating Joe Straczynski.
And some of them extend the reasoning a little further. If the
excesses are done in defense of Joe Straczynski, against someone they
perceive as a threat to Joe Straczynski, or who is not properly
respectful of Joe Straczynski, or has the wrong attitude towards Joe
Straczynski, then those excesses are justified.
So, my position is that it's time to expect some sort of polite,
civilized behavior from everybody who posts here, Joe Straczynski
included. And that's why I am against the kind of press
release/commercial advertisement that Joe Straczynski posted.
>
>But... I have yet to see any such abuse. The Ellison Ad is perfectly
>on topic on serveral points. Ads per se are not banned. Ellison is
>part of B5, being a creative consultant. The development of B5 and of
>the original star trek has been compared and contrasted in the past in
this group. Etc.
It isn't the substance of the ad that's obnoxious. It's the blatant
commercial advertising nature of the ad that crosses the line.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Jay Denebeim
Chris K <chr...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
>Does he review scripts, suggest subplots, give feedback on character
>motivations, help with costuming, write the music, what?
>Perhaps he's Kosh...?
Yeah, he probably is Kosh.
Actually, judging from his title 'Conceptual Consultant', I'd say Joe
bounces ideas off of him, and Harlan tells him when he's full of shit.
I know of only one concrete thing that Joe has mentioned. When TV
Guide started doing the interviews for their article it was obvious by
the questions that they asked was it was going to be basically a Star
Trek piece and how B5 differs. (From the title of the article,
there's no doubt that's what they were thinking) Joe sicced Harlan on
them, they had words... TV Guide changed the focus of the article.
(Joe told this quite a bit funnier then I could, it's worth looking
up)
Jay
--
Sig under construction
Jay Denebeim dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Jay Denebeim
Brian Siano <si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hell, an appalling number of people on the Net have struck me as
> being only slightly more interesting than horseshoe crabs.
I just read your post to my horseshoe crab 'Horace', he was very upset
about the insult, but being a horseshoe crab can't do much about it.
Karen Lee
Ingram) writes:
>
>This is baloney. Let me say it right now:
>
> JMS, *thank you* for posting the ad about Harlan's book.
>
>I don't read any of the ST newsgroups. I've been looking for *years*
for a copy of the original tCotEoF script. I ordered a copy of this
book as soon as I could get the company on the phone.
>I agree that the newsgroup shouldn't be used for product promotion in
>general. But I very much think of this as a special case.
DITTO,
karen
Julian P. Graham
grateful to Joe for doing this show. I deeply appreciate the amount of
care and attention he has put into each episode, and the obvious thought
that has gone into the series as a whole. It sets a standard for all other
TV shows (SF and non-SF) to follow.
And if the price for this is the occasional commercial post to plug a friend's
book (which *will* be of interest to many B5 fans), then I'd say we're all
getting a real bargain.
--
** Julian P. Graham *********************************************
* Warrington, England. "You have....forgotten something." *
* Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5 *
** jpgr...@starfury.demon.co.uk ********************************
David Stinson
his reasons for posting it. Personally I agree with his reasons (and I also
cross-posted it to the rec.arts.startrek.current group where it applied (with
far less complaints)).
1) Harlan is involved directly in B5
2) Harlan has a book coming out
3) A large number of Harlan fans are in this newsgroup
4) Harlan does not use the Internet
5) Harlan's fans here might want to know about a _limited edition_ version of
the book before they were all gone (you know, like the Soundtrack CD's when
they were first offered).
6) JMS is a regular poster here and a friend of Harlan.
7) Elana has been a regular poster here who helped promote the Soundtrack CD
(as did JMS) without a large number of complaints.
Therefore:
8) JMS had every right (OK - IMO)to believe that he was in fact doing the
people on this group a favor when he posted the alleged "ad".
And what he got was a few people who decided that JMS sullied their lives with
his post who are raking this back and forth over the coals. And you, Theron,
taking advantage of that to continue your personal crusade against JMS.
Get past it. He posted it once on Genie and once here (the Green Meddler
forwarded the Genie post, as I did to the Star Trek group). It's over with.
Carrying it any further is just an indication that you have your own agenda in
this.
************************************************************************
** David A. Stinson ** Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves *
** dsti...@ix.netcom.com***********************************************
** DA...@procom.com ** "Gonna need another Timmy!" -Baby Sinclair *
** dast...@aol.com ******************************* Dinosaurs! *
************************************************************************
David Stinson
chr...@case.cyberspace.com (Chris K) wrote:
>If the rationale for the advertisement posted by JMS is that "Ellison is
>related to B5 so we can talk about him and his work just like we talk about
>JMS' work, Claudia Christian's work, etc.", then could someone remind us all
>specifically what he does? Besides the "babylonian productions" voiceover
>at the end of the show?
>motivations, help with costuming, write the music, what?
>Perhaps he's Kosh...?
>
>Chris
The answer to your question is, according to what JMS has said in the past,
about 70% of what you said above (to one degree or another), and he wrote the
"writer's bible" for the show.
I think if Joe wades through this, he'll give a better answer than I have, so
I'll leave it to him.
Michael Lavallee
>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>violation of nettiquette :
I appreciate JMS's presence on this newsgroup as well, but I agree
with you about the advertisement. A meantion of the book wouldn't be
so bad, but such a lengthy actual advertisement was insulting.
JMS probably felt he was doing people in the newsgroup a favour,
because of our interest regarding Mr. Ellison, but I do hope he won't
do it again.
_n_
===== //--------------------------------------------------------------------
|#|#| // Michael Lavallee
|L|L| // mlav...@ViaNet.on.ca
|L|L| // Team OS/2
=====
jimn...@cruzio.com
> >
> > Anything that is a breach of netiquette for us normal mortals is also a
> > breach of netiquette for Joe Straczynski.
>
> Okay, let me get this straight. JMS knows that a lot of us like Harlan
> Ellison, and that a lot of us are/were Trekkies. Therefore, he tells
about a book BY Harlan Ellison ABOUT StarTrek. Sure, it's technically off
>
> So posting this info, which many people wanted, is now a breach of i
netiquette?
> Thank goodness not everyone has this view -- or the Internet would shut down
>
I think I would have been easier with JMS' posting if it hadn't read
just like a press release. Sometimes it's the style of a post, not the
substance, that makes it pass or fail the netiquette test.
Bruce Welch
:In article <40obar$t...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,:
:>
:>If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
:>full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
:>the Ellison book.
:>
:[other stuff omitted]
:>Regards,
:>Theron Fuller
:
:
:But it wasn't exactly "self-serving". It was Ellison's book, after all.
Oh my, another person who never saw or read "The Godfather".
--
this signature being renovated ... excuse the mess
Franklin Hummel
It's a loonnnggg summer 'til October....
--
-- Frank Hummel [ hum...@netcom.com ]
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
NecronomiCon, 2nd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention
Danvers, Massachusetts, August 18-20, 1995
For information: P.O. Box 1320, Back Bay Annex, Boston, MA 02117 USA
Theron Fuller
Siano) writes:
(Stuff Deleted)
> "self-serving advertisement?" is there any other _kind_?
Yes. Advertisements informing the public of the risks of AIDS, and how
to prevent it, for example.
I don't object to Joe Straczynski or anybody else announcing the
availability of Babylon 5 merchandise, or organizers announcing
appearences at cons, individuals pointing out Babylon 5 cast movie
roles, etc. etc. Or of Joe Straczynski discussing his non-Babylon 5
work. Or discussions about the other stuff Babylon 5 screenwriters and
Harlan Ellison have done. These low-key posts serve the dual interests
of those who may benefit financially and also large numbers of
individuals who post here.
>
>: The blatant commercialism of the post is what I object to.
>
> And just what do you prefer? _Subtle_ or _hidden_
>commercialism?
No, I prefer low-key, informal announcements in areas directly related
to the Babylon 5 series. I object to press releases posted here
announcing the publication of Star Trek books.
>
> Please refrain from using terms like 'self-serving" and
>"blatant" until you understand their proper use, please.
I always try to do so. With varying degrees of success, alas.
>
> I would
>: have no problem if Joe Straczynski had made an announcement of the
>: type: "Fans of Harlan Ellison will be pleased to know his new Star
>: Trek book is out...." But this is a full-blown commercial
>: advertisement of the most blatant kind.
>
> So is your proposed text.
No, one is a low-key, informal announcement about a fringe area of this
newsgroup. The other is a commercial press release. Big distinction.
don't object to Joe Straczynski or anybody else advertising Babylon 5
merchandise, announcing appearences at cons, movie roles, etc. etc.
These posts have a dual purpose. They are both self-serving >and< they
serve the
direct interests of the Babylon 5 family here.
> So what problem could you have with the JMS post?
>
Explained above
>: But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release
posted
>: both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
>
> Too much what? Now, maybe I'm unique in this, but I have the
>option to skip over a post or two if it seems like it's going to go on
>at length. I'd suggest you speak to your Net provider to learn how to
>do this.
You seem to be saying there should be no reasonable limits at all on
commercial announcements or advertisements posted here. Would you
object to a post announcing something like "Great Money Making
Opportunity! Invest in Harlan Ellison Florida Real Estate! Hurry and
get in on the ground floor of this money-making opportunity. Choice
water front lots available only a four-hour drive from Disney World!"
How about "Hey Babylon 5 fan, are you feeling lonely? No wants to
discuss Babylon 5 with you? Call Monique at 1-900-555-1234. I can
tell you what Sheridan and Delenn are really doing! (Only $1.95 per
minute. You must be at least 18 to call.)"
Where would >you< draw the line on ads on this newsgroup?
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Todd Perry
>Also, as has been pointed out ad nausium, this is the only group jms
>CAN post to, so it's not like he should have put it in ras.current or
>something.
Actually, _someone_ claiming to be JMS on AOL posted in
alt.fan.harlan-ellison a day or two back, to defend himself against some
idiot claiming JMS owed him money. It sure looked like a JMS flame.
Did anyone ever email him at Genie (as the note suggested, if you
doubted the post's authenticity) and verify his identity?
--
Todd Perry
to...@bev.net
Steven McCluney
br...@rpl.regina.sk.ca (Bruce Welch) wrote:
>In article <40offl$s...@brazos.bihs.net>, Steven McCluney wrote:
>:In article <40obar$t...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>: ful...@ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller ) wrote:
>:
>:>
>:>If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
>:>full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
>:>
>:
>:But it wasn't exactly "self-serving". It was Ellison's book, after all.
>
>Oh my, another person who never saw or read "The Godfather".
>
>
>
Do you mean that now Harlan owes Joe a "favor", and if he doesn't pay up,
he'll wind up strolling across San Francisco bay with concrete docksiders?
And I didn't even realize "Straczynski" was an Italian name... :-)
[Hopefully no offense to any Italians out there]
Morgan
> Isn't a major theme in B5 turning out to be, "Never surrender
> to authority"? Do we really need to set JMS up as a golden idol
> beyond the realm or ken of mortals?
>
>
My my, there are none so blind as those that will not see. Had it occurred
to you all (using the above as representation of all you 'freedom
fighters' screaming about the Ellison book) whingers that the refusal
to bow to authority may just extend to you at this precise moment in
time? Keeping away from the issue of the book itself, as this
argument has been very ably dealt with by others...there is the issue
of who the hell do you think you lot are telling the rest of us, JMS
included, what you think is, or isn't acceptable here? If everyone had
screeched at JMS, then fair enough. But if you hadn't noticed, the
majority of subscribers are jack shit happy about the plug.
Ellison bashing is all very well. Harlan is big enough, and bold
enough to take care of himself, and has always proved to be so. If
you have a gripe with him, write him and tell him so, to his face,
rather than back biting here in the shadows, where he can't reach you, or
even hear you. Just remember, that to play fair, you should make sure
you extend him the courtesy of a full name and return address on you
little note about him, his work, and his shameless exploitation of
the fair JMS, and his no doubt nefarious designs on 'us', the unhappy
wretches designed to pour our hapless money into his overflowing
coffers. After all, we all know how well paid writers are..
And lay off JMS, while I'm at it. there is a great deal of difference
between laying down gold for the making of false idols, and handing
out a little respect and leeway to someone who's busting a gut to be
friendly. No one acts out of pure altruism, ever, and I'm sure JMS gets
a great deal out of being on this list, but the bottom line is he's the
one pouring out the work that we're enjoying lapping up, and that
grants him a little more leeway than anyone else - period. If you're
all so unhappy with that, then go set up your own list without the
participation of JMS...I'm sure most of us would be happy to see
you go. And regardless of who he is, no single contributor deserves
this sort of shit!
And since you've really got me going...what is it about Ellison anyway?
he said something you don't like? Wow! Hold the Press. He doesn't agree
with you? Wow! Get the President on the phone? Harlan doesn't like fans,
doesn't like television, and hates stupidity. Okay. so, I disagree with him
on one or two points. So what! On the other hand, he always tells the truth
as he sees it, he sticks by his convictions, and he never allows himself
to be threatened, intimidated, or plain terrorised out of his convictions.
Well, what a crime against humanity in general and fandom in particular.
In terms of authority, and bypassing it, JMS's trib about the
book was (TO ME) a perfectly acceptably use of the Net. The whole
point about Ellison, is that he has a history of being suppressed, by
'legitimate' agencies (such as the US Government, and mainstream book
publishers, and the Studios) and JMS giving Harlan space here is a
real good example of how open the Net is, regardless of the subject
matter for the book...
What is blatantly obvious to many of us reading the poison in this
thread, is that it's really Ellison who is being attacked, purely
because he's Ellison...well go tell him that, but like I said,
include a SASE...
--
Morgan
Brian 'Doc' O'Neill
|> In <40nnb7$7...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay
|> Denebeim) writes:
|> (Stuff Deleted)
|>
|> >People post stuff for friends without net access all the time. Just
|> >because we're dealing with a couple of famous people here doesn't mean
|> >that they should be treated any differently.
|>
|> Exactly! If you or I had posted a full-blown commercial press release
|> for one of our friends, we'd have been flamed for weeks about it.
|>
No, you would be flamed for weeks if you posted something that had nothing
to do with B5. What JMS did was appropriate, as it was information on
something that someone who is involved with B5 did.
|> Also, the circumstances in this case make it appear that Harlan Ellison
|> considers himself above interacting with people like you and me on the
|> Internet, but he isn't above having someone shill his book for him here
|> so he can make some money off us.
|>
No, Harlan Ellison just has no wish to deal with the (minority, but VERY
vocal) people who like to attack people from behind a computer screen. We
don't know anyone like that around here, do we?
===========================================================================
Brian O'Neill - Director of Computing, Computer Science one...@cs.uml.edu
University of Massachusetts at Lowell
(508) 934-3645
"Nothing's the same anymore." - Sinclair, Babylon 5, _Chrysalis_
Morgan
--
Morgan
lily...@aquilagroup.com
Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
In general:
He is a Creator. He has made a New Thing.
This is obviously a no-no. Creators should not be allowed to
hurt the little egos of people who can't/don't create.
He is patient and tolerant with/of his fans.
No, no, no. The correct response to a fan is to scream "Get
a life!" and embarrass them in public.
He has a friend that not everyone likes.
And you don't?
His friend is also a Creator.
Also awful. If you can't have neat friends, neither can he.
He thinks his friend's Creation is interesting.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Always abuse Creative people.
And his abuses of the newsgroup:
He has posted a notice of a commercial product, in this case his friend's book.
Evil, evil. The problem here is that the product being hawked is an
original creation. If it were a rip off of an existing Creation,
that would be okay. But Original Stuff hurts the feelings of
those Non-Creators.
He has responded to thousands of questions.
See above. He keeps forgetting to scream, "Get a Life!"
He has set up a moderated feed to his e-mail, so that he can continue reading
this newsgroup.
Silly boy. He should have just gone away and left us alone. Nobody
really wants to have the creator around, talking about his show.
He has not quit posting, even though several people have repeatedly abused him
and his Creation.
Doesn't he realize that Fuller, Thaxton, Dennis, et al. are much
Better People than he is? After all, they aren't Creators.
Sorry for the length, but I am sick unto death of watching Mr. Straczynski be
abused by a pack of clueless net.geeks who can't find their own a**es with
both hands, a flashlight, written directions, and lots of help.
I'd like to find JMS and apologize for these idiots, but he's busy enough
creating a Wonderful Thing for our enlightenment and enjoyment.
Lily-Rose
lily...@aquilagroup.com
lily...@aquilagroup.com
> He is a Creator. He has made a New Thing.
> This is obviously a no-no. Creators should not be allowed to
> hurt the little egos of people who can't/don't create.
There was an error here. What I *meant* to say was:
He is a Creator. He has made a New Thing.
This is obviously a no-no. Creators should not be allowed to
exist, since the fact of their existence hurts the little
egos of people who can't/don't create.
Sorry about that.
Lily-Rose
lily...@aquilagroup.com
Jay Denebeim
As a matter of fact, Cheryl called that post to my attention last
evening. It looks like Joe created a screen on his AOL account
specifically to make that post. Judging from sentence structure,
tone, and word choice, I'd say it was jms. Signing it joe was
something I've not seen before though.
Recall what happened a few days ago here, someone mentioned the post,
jms asked for the text, someone forwarded it to him. It looked to me
like once he heard about it, he asked a bud how to set up an AOL
screen, created it for that post, sent it, and deleted the screen.
This sounds perfectly in character for 'our joe' to me. IIRC one of
the points in the post was that he couldn't even hear someone when
they posted on that newsgroup which anyone who knows anything about
jms should know (the twit called him 'mike' too).
I don't think Joe is having a very good week :-) Anyone have some
banana ice cream for him?
Morgan
>
> Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
>
> In general:
>
> He is a Creator. He has made a New Thing.
> This is obviously a no-no. Creators should not be allowed to
> hurt the little egos of people who can't/don't create.
>
Bravo!
--
Morgan
Robert Holland
>hurt by Joe posting an ad for a Star Trek book by Ellison on the internet.
>
You're kidding. You took the ad for an overpriced book personally?
Please don't take anything written by JMS personally. JMS doesn't know you.
Harlan doesn't know you. They're just hucksters, shuckin' and jivin' and
trying to make their fortunes. Why else would Ellison write a memoir on a
30-year old script? He needs the bucks for his medicare payments.
--RH
Kurt Reisler
Michael Lavallee <mlav...@ViaNet.on.ca> wrote:
>dm...@primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor) wrote:
>
>>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>>violation of nettiquette :
>
>I appreciate JMS's presence on this newsgroup as well, but I agree
>with you about the advertisement. A meantion of the book wouldn't be
>so bad, but such a lengthy actual advertisement was insulting.
Sorry, but 90% of what is posted into this and EVERY OTHER NEWSGROUP is
insulting trash. It is the price you pay for COMMUNICATIONS.
Considering the bandwidth that is wasted with SPOILER PROTECTION and
endless repetition of stupid crap by miscellaneous pinheads who consider
themselves to the be-all and end-all of everything, it is amazing to me
that JMS still hangs out here with us.
For you or anyone else to jump on Joe for posting something the he felt
might be of interest to us, is an insult to the ENTIRE USENET community.
Yes, I AM HAVING A BAD DAY!
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
<*> Ignore the petty dysfunctional, and the CRI fiends <*>
Brian Siano
: In <40oimg$j...@netnews.upenn.edu> si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu (Brian
: Siano) writes:
: (Stuff Deleted)
: > "self-serving advertisement?" is there any other _kind_?
: Yes. Advertisements informing the public of the risks of AIDS, and how
: to prevent it, for example.
These sorts of ads are actually "public service
announcements," and are exceptions to the overall thrust of
advertisements. In other words, your comment has no bearing on this topic.
: I don't object to Joe Straczynski or anybody else announcing the
: availability of Babylon 5 merchandise, or organizers announcing
: appearences at cons, individuals pointing out Babylon 5 cast movie
: roles, etc. etc. Or of Joe Straczynski discussing his non-Babylon 5
: work. Or discussions about the other stuff Babylon 5 screenwriters and
: Harlan Ellison have done. These low-key posts serve the dual interests
: of those who may benefit financially and also large numbers of
: individuals who post here.
Seems to me that the announcement of Ellison's book falls
under this description.
: >
: >: The blatant commercialism of the post is what I object to.
: >
: > And just what do you prefer? _Subtle_ or _hidden_
: >commercialism?
: No, I prefer low-key, informal announcements in areas directly related
: to the Babylon 5 series. I object to press releases posted here
: announcing the publication of Star Trek books.
Ah, this is an _aesthetic_ reaction of yours. And given that
there are lietarlly dozens of messages posted to this newsgroup that
bear even less on B5 than the Ellison announcement, you really seem to
be reaching for excuses here.
: > Please refrain from using terms like 'self-serving" and
: >"blatant" until you understand their proper use, please.
: I always try to do so. With varying degrees of success, alas.
The track record established is not encouraging.
: > I would
: >: have no problem if Joe Straczynski had made an announcement of the
: >: type: "Fans of Harlan Ellison will be pleased to know his new Star
: >: Trek book is out...." But this is a full-blown commercial
: >: advertisement of the most blatant kind.
: >
: > So is your proposed text.
: No, one is a low-key, informal announcement about a fringe area of this
: newsgroup. The other is a commercial press release. Big distinction.
Hm. Please provide for us a precise delineation of what a "loy
key" announcement is, versus a press release. Once again, we seem to
be objecting on aesthetic grounds, which others are free to disagree with.
: don't object to Joe Straczynski or anybody else advertising Babylon 5
: merchandise, announcing appearences at cons, movie roles, etc. etc.
: These posts have a dual purpose. They are both self-serving >and< they
: serve the
: direct interests of the Babylon 5 family here.
: > So what problem could you have with the JMS post?
: >
: Explained above
Uh-uh.
: >: But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release
: posted
: >: both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
: >
: > Too much what? Now, maybe I'm unique in this, but I have the
: >option to skip over a post or two if it seems like it's going to go on
: >at length. I'd suggest you speak to your Net provider to learn how to
: >do this.
: You seem to be saying there should be no reasonable limits at all on
: commercial announcements or advertisements posted here. Would you
: object to a post announcing something like "Great Money Making
: Opportunity! Invest in Harlan Ellison Florida Real Estate! Hurry and
: get in on the ground floor of this money-making opportunity. Choice
: water front lots available only a four-hour drive from Disney World!"
Oh, obviously I'd object to that: but that's not what was
being advertised here. Like I said, you're reaching.
: How about "Hey Babylon 5 fan, are you feeling lonely? No wants to
: discuss Babylon 5 with you? Call Monique at 1-900-555-1234. I can
: tell you what Sheridan and Delenn are really doing! (Only $1.95 per
: minute. You must be at least 18 to call.)"
That'd actually be on-topic for the newsgroup. Think again.
: Where would >you< draw the line on ads on this newsgroup?
It's not my _place_ to draw lines for this newsgroup, Theron--
and neither is it _yours_, either.
--
Brian Siano - si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
"There are four things required for the nourishment of the soul:
passion, delight, stability, and meaning. So just _why_ are all four
considered 'marketable products?'"
David Stinson
(Jay Denebeim) wrote:
> In article <40q8lm$4...@toddp.bevd.blacksburg.va.us>,
> Todd Perry <to...@bev.net> wrote:
> >Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
> >>Also, as has been pointed out ad nausium, this is the only group jms
> >>CAN post to, so it's not like he should have put it in ras.current or
> >>something.
> >
> Recall what happened a few days ago here, someone mentioned the post,
> jms asked for the text, someone forwarded it to him. It looked to me
> like once he heard about it, he asked a bud how to set up an AOL
> screen, created it for that post, sent it, and deleted the screen.
> This sounds perfectly in character for 'our joe' to me.
I've seen JMS use that screen-name on AOL when he does his interviews. And
it definitely sounded like him. I think the case of signing it "Joe" was
becuase the dimbulb who posted the accusation in the first place called
him "Mike".
--
David A. Stinson Personal Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves
Product Integration Work E-Mail : da...@procom.com
Engineer Personal E-Mail : dsti...@ix.netcom.com or
Procom Technology, Inc. dast...@aol.com
Young Ned of the Hill
>But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release posted
>both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
So don't read past the first couple senteces when it became obvious
what the post was about. Seems simple enough to me.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
They don't pay me enough| bgr...@scf.usc.edu | We're everywhere, for your
to speak their opinions!| | convenience. -PsiCorps
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Brian Siano
: In article <40oic9$j...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: Brian Siano <si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
: > Hell, an appalling number of people on the Net have struck me as
: > being only slightly more interesting than horseshoe crabs.
: I just read your post to my horseshoe crab 'Horace', he was very upset
: about the insult, but being a horseshoe crab can't do much about it.
In that case, I apologize from the deepest regions of my
heart. I was casting about for a referent that was silly-sounding, and
"horseshoe crabs" was what popped into my mind.
I would like to apologize to all horseshoe crabs on the Net
(and wishign that you don't get caught in _any_ nets) for any offense
taken at my above remarks.
Brian Siano
: :
: :>
: :>If you've read the Joe Straczynski post, you'll see that it's a
: :>full-blown press release (translated: self-serving advertisement) for
: :>the Ellison book.
: :
: :But it wasn't exactly "self-serving". It was Ellison's book, after all.
: Oh my, another person who never saw or read "The Godfather".
Uh, I've read it: what are you talking about?
Steven McCluney
si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu (Brian Siano) wrote:
>Jay Denebeim (dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us) wrote:
>: In article <40oic9$j...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>: Brian Siano <si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>: > Hell, an appalling number of people on the Net have struck me as
>: > being only slightly more interesting than horseshoe crabs.
>
>: I just read your post to my horseshoe crab 'Horace', he was very upset
>: about the insult, but being a horseshoe crab can't do much about it.
>
> In that case, I apologize from the deepest regions of my
>heart. I was casting about for a referent that was silly-sounding, and
>"horseshoe crabs" was what popped into my mind.
>
> I would like to apologize to all horseshoe crabs on the Net
>(and wishign that you don't get caught in _any_ nets) for any offense
>taken at my above remarks.
>
Hey, that's "crustacean american" to you, buddy!
(posting my name _way_ down here in hopes nobody will see it)
Elton John Tucker
: In article <40q8lm$4...@toddp.bevd.blacksburg.va.us>,
: Todd Perry <to...@bev.net> wrote:
: >Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
: >>Also, as has been pointed out ad nausium, this is the only group jms
: >>CAN post to, so it's not like he should have put it in ras.current or
: >>something.
: >Actually, _someone_ claiming to be JMS on AOL posted in
: >alt.fan.harlan-ellison a day or two back, to defend himself against some
: >idiot claiming JMS owed him money. It sure looked like a JMS flame.
: >Did anyone ever email him at Genie (as the note suggested, if you
: >doubted the post's authenticity) and verify his identity?
: As a matter of fact, Cheryl called that post to my attention last
: evening. It looks like Joe created a screen on his AOL account
: specifically to make that post. Judging from sentence structure,
: tone, and word choice, I'd say it was jms. Signing it joe was
: something I've not seen before though.
: Recall what happened a few days ago here, someone mentioned the post,
: jms asked for the text, someone forwarded it to him. It looked to me
: like once he heard about it, he asked a bud how to set up an AOL
: screen, created it for that post, sent it, and deleted the screen.
: This sounds perfectly in character for 'our joe' to me. IIRC one of
: the points in the post was that he couldn't even hear someone when
: they posted on that newsgroup which anyone who knows anything about
: jms should know (the twit called him 'mike' too).
: I don't think Joe is having a very good week :-) Anyone have some
: banana ice cream for him?
: Jay
: --
: Sig under construction
: Jay Denebeim dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
: duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Ya, but its got nuts in it....
-elton
Bernard HP Gilroy
>In article <40o9il$a...@dragon.solect.com>,
>Michael Lavallee <mlav...@ViaNet.on.ca> wrote:
>>dm...@primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor) wrote:
>>
>>>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>>>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>>>violation of nettiquette :
>>
>>I appreciate JMS's presence on this newsgroup as well, but I agree
>>with you about the advertisement. A meantion of the book wouldn't be
>>so bad, but such a lengthy actual advertisement was insulting.
>
>Sorry, but 90% of what is posted into this and EVERY OTHER NEWSGROUP is
>insulting trash. It is the price you pay for COMMUNICATIONS.
>Considering the bandwidth that is wasted with SPOILER PROTECTION and
>endless repetition of stupid crap by miscellaneous pinheads who consider
>themselves to the be-all and end-all of everything, it is amazing to me
>that JMS still hangs out here with us.
bandwidth". I think, in fact, that adding SP is the same as
refraining from long posts: a matter of courtesy.
Secondly, and more importantly, just because 90% of what is
posted is "insulting trash" doesn't mean we should just accept it. We
should in fact try to reduce that, to increase the signal-to-noise.
Acquiescing in an unfortunate paradigm is the same as perpetuating it.
>
>For you or anyone else to jump on Joe for posting something the he felt
>might be of interest to us, is an insult to the ENTIRE USENET community.
among gentlebeings. There's certainly nothing inherently insulting
to suggest that a certain post went beyond the perceived bounds.
USEnet is a dialog, and if someone is placed ab initio above
criticism, the dialog is stilted. If people don't express what they
perceive as the bounds of etiquette, how are we ever to hope of
approaching a medium that satisfies most people?
I find it disturbing how many have expressed an impatience
with the mere _expression_ of dissatisfaction with JMS' actions. Was
this worthy of his head on a platter? No. But no one -- not me, not
you, not JMS, and not even God -- is automatically right. Everyone's
actions are open to question and comment. Else, we are little more
than sheep.
Bernard HP Gilroy -- gil...@leland.stanford.edu -- <b|Hp|g>
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~gilroy
"It's easy to be a pacifist when the war is over."
-- Joanne Jacobs, San Jose _Mercury News_ 1995 August 7
Stephen Page BA BSc
About time someone spoke up against these morons..
j. ercole
gil...@leland.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Subject: Re: Abuse of this newsgroup by JMS (re: Ellison TREK Book ad)
>>>You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>>>but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>>>violation of nettiquette :
>>
>>I appreciate JMS's presence on this newsgroup as well, but I agree
>>with you about the advertisement. A meantion of the book wouldn't be
>>so bad, but such a lengthy actual advertisement was insulting.
>
>Sorry, but 90% of what is posted into this and EVERY OTHER NEWSGROUP is
>insulting trash.
the quantity written about JMS' post is truly hard to believe. I've been
around these parts for a while and I've got to say, "this takes the
cake." Personally, anything posted by Joe is OK with me. His being here
is a unique thing in media-land, and no small part of what makes the "B5
experience" The *only* worthwhile fiction on television.
j. ercole
ny, usa
e-mail: jo...@li.net
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life is too vertically challenged for politcal correctness
Robert Merritt
Morgan <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Ellison bashing is all very well. Harlan is big enough, and bold
>enough to take care of himself, and has always proved to be so. If
>you have a gripe with him, write him and tell him so, to his face,
>rather than back biting here in the shadows, where he can't reach you, or
>even hear you. Just remember, that to play fair, you should make sure
>you extend him the courtesy of a full name and return address on you
>little note about him, his work, and his shameless exploitation of
>the fair JMS, and his no doubt nefarious designs on 'us', the unhappy
>wretches designed to pour our hapless money into his overflowing
>coffers. After all, we all know how well paid writers are..
>
way I can reach him. However I would like to say that, I did accept and
was satisified with Joe's statement that he posted it for a friend.
I don't desire to drag out this argument. I just hope that my position
doesn't get distored.
>Well, what a crime against humanity in general and fandom in particular.
>
Ok, here is the crime: Ellison regularly puts down people who like
Star Trek and people on the internet. Which is fine and I agree with
him...sometimes, but lets be reasonable. After doing this, does he
really think he be able to sell a star trek book on the internet?
I'm almost curious to see if this really was a test to see how
stupid internet using star trek fans are.
>What is blatantly obvious to many of us reading the poison in this
>thread, is that it's really Ellison who is being attacked, purely
>because he's Ellison...well go tell him that, but like I said,
>include a SASE...
>
And his address is?
>Morgan
Rob Merritt
Robert Merritt
>
>Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
>
>I'd like to find JMS and apologize for these idiots, but he's busy enough
>creating a Wonderful Thing for our enlightenment and enjoyment.
>
>Lily-Rose
>lily...@aquilagroup.com
>
I personally don't think JMS has ever abused anything. (Actually there is a
small part of my brain being abused every week just trying to figure out
Babylon 5 :) )
I just expressed my feelings about the Star Trek ad. I really didn't want
this flame war to crop up. sorry. :(
Rob Merritt
jere7my tho?rpe
*No, one is a low-key, informal announcement about a fringe area of this
*newsgroup. The other is a commercial press release. Big distinction.
JMS wrote the article himself; it was not what is commonly called a
"commericial press release." It may have been phrased like one, but it
was _not_ forwarded by JMS from the publisher or advertiser.
----j7y
**************************** <*> ****************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Arf, arf."
Physicist and Artist Guy The sound of certain death in
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu the land of the 50-ton dogs.
(610) 604-0669 (Mister Boffo)
Mark Robertshaw
>In article <40paqo$f...@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca>,
> br...@rpl.regina.sk.ca (Bruce Welch) wrote:
>>In article <40offl$s...@brazos.bihs.net>, Steven McCluney wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>he'll wind up strolling across San Francisco bay with concrete docksiders?
>And I didn't even realize "Straczynski" was an Italian name... :-)
Hey, it ends in a vowel! (come to think of it, so does Kurosawa)
Bruce Welch
:Bruce Welch (br...@rpl.regina.sk.ca) wrote:
:
:: Oh my, another person who never saw or read "The Godfather".
:Uh, I've read it: what are you talking about?
Favour (or favor - if you prefer) for a friend. Doing one. The danger
involved. The inevitable payback. Mutual backscratching. In short -
yes, it is "self-serving".
--
this signature being renovated ... excuse the mess
gary weiner
>Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Well, >my< point is that the same set of standards should apply to
>>everyone on this newsgroup, Joe Straczynski as well.
>
>I for one do not give a rat's ass whether or not "Joe Straczynski" commits
>breaches of netiquette. His participation here is so welcome and great
>that he is welcome to abuse netiquette all he wants as far as I am concerned
>(and I bet a whole lot of us here feel the same).
Yes, of course, haven't you read the rast.B5 charter?
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 charter [abridged version]
*********************************************************************
1) Whatever Joe says goes.
2) In case of any disagreement with Joe, see rule 1.
3) There is no rule 3.
*********************************************************************
>
>But... I have yet to see any such abuse. The Ellison Ad is perfectly on
>topic on serveral points. Ads per se are not banned. Ellison is part of
>B5, being a creative consultant. The development of B5 and of the original
>star trek has been compared and contrasted in the past in this group. Etc.
Well, at least the info was welcome. My mother-in-law was happy to see
that the book she paid for *THREE YEARS AGO* is finally coming out. As
for me, I think he should have called the book "The Harlan Ellison Needs
to Pay a Few Bills Book".
--
Gary J. Weiner |"Red Riding Hood screamed, not out of alarm at the
BNL-NSLS | wolf's apparent tendency toward cross-dressing,
wei...@bnlux1.bnl.gov | but because of his willfull invasion, of her
PO BOX 715 Upton, NY 11973 | personal space" -James Garner, PC Bedtime Stories
Dave Bullock
>Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
>In general:
>He is a Creator. He has made a New Thing.
> This is obviously a no-no. Creators should not be allowed to
> hurt the little egos of people who can't/don't create.
>His friend is also a Creator.
> Also awful. If you can't have neat friends, neither can he.
>He thinks his friend's Creation is interesting.
> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Always abuse Creative people.
>And his abuses of the newsgroup:
>He has posted a notice of a commercial product, in this case his friend's book.
> Evil, evil. The problem here is that the product being hawked is an
> original creation. If it were a rip off of an existing Creation,
> that would be okay. But Original Stuff hurts the feelings of
> those Non-Creators.
>He has responded to thousands of questions.
> See above. He keeps forgetting to scream, "Get a Life!"
>Sorry for the length, but I am sick unto death of watching Mr. Straczynski be
>abused by a pack of clueless net.geeks who can't find their own a**es with
>both hands, a flashlight, written directions, and lots of help.
>I'd like to find JMS and apologize for these idiots, but he's busy enough
>creating a Wonderful Thing for our enlightenment and enjoyment.
>Lily-Rose
>lily...@aquilagroup.com
THANK you
Jay Denebeim
Available in any book he's in, just like any other author. You can
always reach the author of a book by sending it to them C/O the
publisher of the book (who's address is listed in the book)
Theron Fuller
Hill) writes:
>
>ful...@ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller ) writes:
>[snip snip]
>
>>But a several-paragraph, commercial advertisement press release
posted
>>both here and on Compuserve is a little much.
>
>So don't read past the first couple senteces when it became obvious
>what the post was about. Seems simple enough to me.
Even simpler if it's not posted in the first place.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) writes:
>
>ful...@ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller ) wrote:
>
>*No, one is a low-key, informal announcement about a fringe area of
this
>*newsgroup. The other is a commercial press release. Big
distinction.
>
> JMS wrote the article himself; it was not what is commonly called
a
>"commericial press release." It may have been phrased like one, but
it
>was _not_ forwarded by JMS from the publisher or advertiser.
As someone or other once posted here: "If it walks like a duck, and
quacks like a duck...."
regards,
Theron Fuller
Michael Lavallee
> Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
<rest of this garbage article deleted>
So, what you are saying then is that you had no problem with Mr. Straczynski's
advertisement then? Excellent. I guess that means the rest of us can start
forwarding advertisements for other products here as well. I've got numerous
Doctor Who adverts that I can forward, and I'm sure that there are quite a few
people who would love to forward some more Star Trek stuff, to compliment Mr.
Straczynksi's ad, of course.
I'll be sure that you get copies in your e-mail box. As a favour, of course. :)
As much as I respect JMS, and enjoy him being here, I read this echo for
Babylon 5 and not to see advertisements for products from a near 30 year old
show. I have no doubt what-so-ever that if it were some newbie posting that
same ad in here, you would have been one of the first people to flame him.
_n_
===== //--------------------------------------------------------------------
|#|#| // Michael Lavallee "Well of course it bleeps, you can't
|L|L| // mlav...@ViaNet.on.ca have a tracking device that doesn't
|L|L| // Team OS/2 bleep, can you?" -The Doctor
=====
Nick Gardner
> Hmmm. I have to disagree strongly here, despite my intense
>indifference to this whole thread. I don't think we should give
>_anyone_ free reign on the group. Everybody owes everyone else some
>simple courtesy and consideration. Did this post cross that line? I
>dunno. I just wince whenever anyone encourages anyone else to erase
>that line completely.
> Isn't a major theme in B5 turning out to be, "Never surrender
>to authority"? Do we really need to set JMS up as a golden idol
>beyond the realm or ken of mortals?
First off, as the first post said, This group would not even exist
without jms. Therefore the man would have to go MUCH farther than
he has to breach the ettiquette of the group.
I mean if The Great Maker wants to plug a book by one of the major
creative forces on B5 just who are we to bitch.
If you don't like it, DON'T BUY THE BOOK! Pretty damn simple if
you ask me. But NO, people got offended and no we are ALL having to
suffer for one louse little post by jms. Let the damn thing die and
lets go back to discussing whether Narns are southpaws with bats.
lily...@aquilagroup.com
Theron Fuller:
> As someone or other once posted here: "If it walks like a duck, and
> quacks like a duck...."
"It's obviously an asshole named Fuller."
Stew Barnes
(Dennis O'Connor) wrote:
> dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
> ] Well, I agree somewhat, however since Harlan is involved with the
> ] show, I don't take particular issue with it. Let's put it this way,
> ] if it had been jms hawking his own book here, would you be as upset?
>
> If it was a book about B5, no.
> If it was a TREK book, yes : Trek books can be hawked in
> the Trek newsgroups, can they not ?
I must have missed all of your complaints about the discussion of the
scriptwriters bible, as you would obviously consider that "a book about
B5, no."
S
Morgan
that up for us guys...
By the way...in the category of irony...my favourite observations
are as follows...
Harlan Ellison states some fans are morons.
Harlan Ellison states some fans use e-mail as a way to abuse others.
JMS mentions a Harlan Ellison book
Fans start screaming about Harlan's "bigotry"..
......and then guess what crawls out of the woodwork?
God is an iron!
--
Morgan
Richard Feldman
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous....
In a previous article, chr...@case.cyberspace.com (Chris K) says:
>If the rationale for the advertisement posted by JMS is that "Ellison is
>related to B5 so we can talk about him and his work just like we talk about
>JMS' work, Claudia Christian's work, etc.", then could someone remind us all
>specifically what he does? Besides the "babylonian productions" voiceover
>at the end of the show?
>Does he review scripts, suggest subplots, give feedback on character
>motivations, help with costuming, write the music, what?
>Perhaps he's Kosh...?
>
>curiously,
>Chris
>
Chris - jms has stated that Harlan is a "roving agent of chaos," who does
anything and everything that he WANTS to. (If the phrasing isn't
accurate, blame my memory. G) I'd seriously believe that if he wants to
do any or all of the jobs you mentioned, that he DOES do them. He also
happens to be a very dear friend of jms and his wife. Joe had an
opportunity here to help a friend. I for one am VERY happy that he did,
because I ORDERED the book... and I'm not exactly known as a Trekkie or
Trekker or any other thing Trekian lately. (I was during TOS, but there's
absolutely NO need to discuss THAT here.)
As for Harlan being Kosh, however, I've absolute proof that he is NOT....
I've seen the actor who's inside the suit, and he is NOT Harlan. :) Nor
is Harlan the voice actor, Ardwight Chamberlain. No, I've never SEEN
Ardwight, but I've seen Harlan. Harlan is unique. According to all of the
laws of physics, the universe would explode if there were ever to be
another Harlan, especially at the same time as THIS Harlan. :)
I eagerly await my UPS Insured package, and again say THANK YOU to jms
for mentioning this book.
Joe - Now, about "The Complete Guide to Scriptwriting".... I'd like an
autographed First Edition of the new version. I'll pay handsomely. Hell,
I'd LOVE an autographed First Edition of the OLD version! :)))
--
The PsiCorps is your friend. Trust the Corps. We're everywhere, for your
convenience. Richard Feldman, -aka- Chats
David Stinson
(Michael Lavallee) wrote:
> In article <40qc8b$m...@mack.rt66.com>, lily...@aquilagroup.com wrote:
>
> > Okay, let's all take a look at Mr. Straczynski's abuses, shall we?
>
> <rest of this garbage article deleted>
>
> So, what you are saying then is that you had no problem with Mr. Straczynski's
> advertisement then? Excellent. I guess that means the rest of us can start
> forwarding advertisements for other products here as well. I've got numerous
> Doctor Who adverts that I can forward, and I'm sure that there are quite a few
> people who would love to forward some more Star Trek stuff, to compliment Mr.
> Straczynksi's ad, of course.
>
> I'll be sure that you get copies in your e-mail box. As a favour, of
course. :)
>
> As much as I respect JMS, and enjoy him being here, I read this echo for
> Babylon 5 and not to see advertisements for products from a near 30 year old
> show. I have no doubt what-so-ever that if it were some newbie posting that
> same ad in here, you would have been one of the first people to flame him.
And is someone from Dr. Who involved with the Babylon 5 show? Harlan is.
The point is, as Harlan _is_ a creative consultant on B5, discussion (and
in this case notification) of _A LIMITED EDITION_ of his latest book is
on-topic.
And I also believe there is a section from Walter Koenig (who is also a B5
cast member). Now if it had been a standard off-the-shelf edition, I might
think of agreeing (and then again I might not). JMS was trying to do the
Harlan fans here a favor.
Gee, how evil that was of him, wasn't it? (That was irony, for the
iron-deficient;-)
Oh, and if you do post your Dr. Who adverts...
be prepared to be called on it, unless you can prove they ARE on-topic.
(Oh, and I've been a Dr. Who fan since the early 70's, which is kind of
unusual in the U.S. - in my time having met Tom Baker, Sylvester McCoy,
having signed personalized editions of Ian Marter(Harry Sullivan)'s books,
having met Lis Sladen, Janet Fielding, Gerry Davis, Terrance Dicks and
many others personally).
Theron Fuller
Many Babylon 5 fans pride themselves on their superiority to the Fan
Boys and Fan Girls of the various Star Trek series.
The only way a Babylon 5 fan can demonstrate that superiority on this
newsgroup is by the quality of their posts.
You just blew a great opportunity to demonstrate that you're anything
more than the lowest-common-denominator Star Trek Fan Boy/Girl.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Colin M. Chisholm
: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
: violation of nettiquette :
: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
: 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
People advertise all kinds of stuff on this group. And a lot of it has
nothing to do with B5.
: This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
: not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
: product ads.
Abuse of celebrity? I don't know about you but I am *damn* glad that JMS
is here, despite people like you who'll give him shit about something like
this which was, in my mind, a helpful thing to do.
--
co...@tezcat.com | http://www.tezcat.com/~colin/index.html
"The problem with the global village is all the global village idiots."
- Wired, August 1995
William D. Moore
Chisholm) wrote:
> Dennis O'Connor (dm...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> : You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
> : but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
> : violation of nettiquette :
>
> : 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
> : 2) on a subject NOT related to the newsgroup's charter
>
> People advertise all kinds of stuff on this group. And a lot of it has
> nothing to do with B5.
>
> : This is a loathsome "abuse of celebrity". r.a.sf.t.b5 does
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : not exist so that people, meaning ANYONE, can post Star Trek
> : product ads.
JMS posted an improper message to the group
JMS is a "celebrity"
-------------------------------------------
Therefore JMS has committed a "loathsome 'abuse of celebrity'"
Hmmmm. I think you'd better recheck your logic.
I find this particular accusation a little inaccurate, irresponsible, and
misleading. I assume that when you use the term "abuse of celebrity"
you mean that his status as a well-known and greatly-admired (by some)
person has somehow given him the ability or opportunity to commit this
transgression. This is absolutely not true. *Anybody* with access to this
group could have done the same thing whether they are a "celebrity" or not.
His status as a "celebrity" did not provide him with an extra privelege that
the rest of us don't have, so he didn't abuse it.
We have no evidence of what his thoughts were concerning this particular act.
He may have been completely and innocently ignorant of the transgression he
was committing. Now if you can come up with some evidence that would back
you up, like a posting from JMS that said, "Hey! There wouldn't even be
a newsgroup for Babylon 5 if it weren't for me, so lay off!", or "Who the
hell cares what you think? I created the damn show!", then maybe your
accusations would have validity.
>
> Abuse of celebrity? I don't know about you but I am *damn* glad that JMS
> is here, despite people like you who'll give him shit about something like
> this which was, in my mind, a helpful thing to do.
>
Yes. Well I enjoy the occasional posts he makes here too. They're often
enticing and informative, but *you* seem to be at the other end of the
spectrum from Dennis. It almost sounds like you want to give him
"carte blanche" to do whatever he wants here, as long as he sticks around.
That's not right either.
Bill
--
[*] William D. Moore "Spoon!!! SPOOOOOOOON!!!!" [*]
[*] Systems Analyst [*]
[*] 734 LRDC [*]
[*] University of Pittsburgh - The Tick [*]
Richard Feldman
In a previous article, rob...@online1.magnus1.com (Robert Merritt) says:
[someone else [Morgan?] said this]
>>What is blatantly obvious to many of us reading the poison in this
>>thread, is that it's really Ellison who is being attacked, purely
>>because he's Ellison...well go tell him that, but like I said,
>>include a SASE...
>>
[Robert then asked]
>And his address is?
[And I answer]
Harlan, or anyone else connected with the show, may be reached at the
address that jms has posted several times, which is:
[name of person, in this case, Harlan Ellison]
c/o Babylon 5
14431 Ventura Boulevard, Number 260
Sherman Oaks, CA 91423
And this bashing, sniping, and frankly outright lying about Harlan is
really, really, abominable.
Michael Andrew Turton
Brian Siano <si...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Dennis O'Connor (dm...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
>: You know, I really appreciate that JMS is present on this group,
>: but I also think only a total asshole would post in direct
>: violation of nettiquette :
>
>: 1) A BLATANT advertisement (and a long one)
JMS' book advert was NOT repeat was NOT a violation of netiquette.
On the lists I am on, from dinosaurs to sci-tech-studies, it is common and
routine to post notices of new books and journals which would be of interest
to members of the list. On some lists new books are a regular topic of
discussion and have their own subheading. Just today I read several of those
as well as a posting on sci-tech-studies giving notice, by the editors, of
a new journal called Science as Culture and listing the table of contents.
JMS' posting decribing Harlan's new book falls easily into this long tradition.
Mike Turton
tur...@rpi.edu
Michael Lavallee
Ken Papai <kpa...@rahul.net> wrote:
> Fuck, the difference is this:
Watch your language please, kid.
> 1. JMS *is* this group, he can do anything he wants!
That, I disagree with.
> 2. B5 is JMS, vice-versa
Yes, in a sense.
> 3. Harlan ellison is Concept. Consultant for the show
> thus what concerns him and his TV writing past is germane
I don't see how a book on an old Star Trek episode and what "really" happened
is at all relevant to Mr. Ellison's work on Babylon 5.
> 4. Star Trek, Paramount and B5 bashing by Paramount is germane
Star Trek / Paramount bashing? And how are they relevant? Perhaps direct
comparisons to Babylon 5 can be discussed, but all out bashing is very
immature.
> 5. Friends of JMS are friends of mine
You've met him then? Or perhaps your definition 'friend' is quite loose.
> 6. Nasty talking about JMS could drive him out, THAT WOULD SUCK.
Please, spare me. JMS couldn't possibly have gotten as far as he has if he
didn't have the maturity to take criticisms. And expressing displeasement with
an advertisement he's posted is not even close to "nasty talking".
> Obvious ehh?
Something sure is . . .
Michael Lavallee
da...@procom.com (David Stinson) wrote:
> And is someone from Dr. Who involved with the Babylon 5 show? Harlan is.
The correct spelling is Doctor Who. And Mr. Ellison has a very loose
'involvement' with Doctor Who. He's stated he was a fan of the series, and
wrote an intro to one of the novelisations. At any rate, even he was the
bloody creator of Doctor Who, and wrote a book on it, I don't see how posting
that in this newsgroup would be any more right.
> The point is, as Harlan _is_ a creative consultant on B5, discussion (and
> in this case notification) of _A LIMITED EDITION_ of his latest book is
> on-topic.
But if it doesn't at all concern Babylon 5, I don't see how it can be relevant.
Unless what you're indicating is that the book focuses directly with his
'vision' for what the episode should have been, and thus is as a result on
topic because of Mr. Ellison's position as a creative consultant.
> And I also believe there is a section from Walter Koenig (who is also a B5
> cast member). Now if it had been a standard off-the-shelf edition, I might
> think of agreeing (and then again I might not). JMS was trying to do the
> Harlan fans here a favor.
I understand that. And because it was a limited edition, I am inclined to
agree that posting it here was on topic. However, if it were not a limited
edition, I would definately have a problem with him posting a full
advertisement here.
> Gee, how evil that was of him, wasn't it? (That was irony, for the
> iron-deficient;-)
I assure you, you do not wish to engage me on a definition of good and evil.
> Oh, and if you do post your Dr. Who adverts...
> be prepared to be called on it, unless you can prove they ARE on-topic.
What do you think I am, a Trekker? I have no plans to post material about
other science fiction series unless they somehow tie in with the subject of
this newsgroup. I was using that as an example, which was quite obvious.
> (Oh, and I've been a Dr. Who fan since the early 70's, which is kind of
> unusual in the U.S. - in my time having met Tom Baker, Sylvester McCoy,
> having signed personalized editions of Ian Marter(Harry Sullivan)'s books,
> having met Lis Sladen, Janet Fielding, Gerry Davis, Terrance Dicks and
> many others personally).
That's nice, but what does that have to do with the discussion of JMS' posting
of Mr. Ellison's book?
davieboy
I was wondering when you people who complian about minor (even major)
abuses of nettiquette were going to get over yourselves.
I mean, you all agree that having JMS on the newgroup is great. So he
plugged a book... so what.
Yeah yeah yeah... but it's against NETTIQUETTE!
I repeat... so what?
Skip the posting.
As soon as you saw what it was, you could have skipped it. You could
have seen that it was something you weren't interested in, and hit
that ever present "view next article" button.
Weigh your small little angers against the thought that all of this
silliness could force him to drop out of the group...
Get a grip, relax, and take a little pleasure in life.
Davieboy