DO NOT POST STORY IDEAS!
Franklin Hummel
Over on GEnie, someone mentioned a possible occurrence resulting
from the mindwipe process in "The Quality of Mercy" -- which turned out
to be a "B" plot JMS had been developing for a future episode. Now that
idea is something he can -not- use. He's not to happy about this and
again warned folks he might be forced to drop-off the various networks.
*sigh* Let's be careful here, people!
-- Frank Hummel [ Internet: hum...@mit.edu - GEnie: F.HUMMEL ]
User Support
:
: Over on GEnie, someone mentioned a possible occurrence resulting
: from the mindwipe process in "The Quality of Mercy" -- which turned out
: to be a "B" plot JMS had been developing for a future episode. Now that
: idea is something he can -not- use. He's not to happy about this and
: again warned folks he might be forced to drop-off the various networks.
:
: *sigh* Let's be careful here, people!
Perhaps Joe is giving up too easily on that story idea. Since public-
domain disclaimers must be in writing to be legally valid, then (assuming
the original poster has no objection) couldn't Joe just request a legally-
binding waiver from the guy? Precludes any possibility of lawsuit, and
allows the story to be done. Sure, maybe some people would try to extort
some compensation out of this; the response would be that the story won't
be done anyway, which is the situation we have now anyway.
What am I missing, legal-eagles?
Glenn M. Saunders
:
: Over on GEnie, someone mentioned a possible occurrence resulting
: from the mindwipe process in "The Quality of Mercy" -- which turned out
: to be a "B" plot JMS had been developing for a future episode. Now that
: idea is something he can -not- use. He's not to happy about this and
: again warned folks he might be forced to drop-off the various networks.
:
: *sigh* Let's be careful here, people!
I'd call that paranoia.
Glenn M. Saunders
It's gone nuts. Look, there are millions of people around. People have
been posting story ideas (wouldn't it be cool if -- variety) into BBSs
and usenet for a LONG time regarding a variety of shows and I don't think
the producers read through them and deliberately gave up on story after
story which may seem similar to the "casual posting".
That's stupid.
Wasn't it said at one time that there are only 11 or so story kernals and
everything builds from them? There are only so many story ideas out
there, and if the writers of B5 come up with something that matches a
story idea from some pimply-faced sci-fi nerd who just makes a casual
post and has no intention of suing JMS, then I say don't be paranoid
about it.
There should be a law that a "story idea" as you may find written up in an
off-hand manner on a BBS or usenet can not be copyrighted, only a formal
written script. That way there would be no problem.
be...@primenet.com
careful about eliminating all possibility of taking another's idea and
using it as his own. I have seen too many ugly lawsuits take place because
somebody claimed that a story idea was taken from them.
Ben Ragunton __ ~~ ^ ^
be...@PrimeNet.Com / \ /o ~ )o##)
P.RAG...@genie.geis.com \ / < ] (~~\ /
Glendale, Arizona ||= > / ~~~||
(602) 590-5674 / \ /====\ /~ ~\
~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\
| | | | | | |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gamera's really neat! Gamera's full of meat! We all love you Gamera!"
"Joel, do human beings really act like this?" -- Tom Servo
John Schilling
>I don't know what's up with this shit regarding story ideas...
>It's gone nuts. Look, there are millions of people around. People have
>been posting story ideas (wouldn't it be cool if -- variety) into BBSs
>and usenet for a LONG time regarding a variety of shows and I don't think
>the producers read through them and deliberately gave up on story after
>story which may seem similar to the "casual posting".
Because the producers in question don't read usenet or BBSs in the first
place. JMS does, and it is widely known that he does, which makes him
extremely vulnerable to lawsuits.
>That's stupid.
What, exactly, is stupid about it? Avoiding major lawsuits is not stupid.
>Wasn't it said at one time that there are only 11 or so story kernals and
>everything builds from them? There are only so many story ideas out
>there, and if the writers of B5 come up with something that matches a
>story idea from some pimply-faced sci-fi nerd who just makes a casual
>post and has no intention of suing JMS, then I say don't be paranoid
>about it.
But how do you distingush such cases from those involving pimply-faced
sci-fi nerds who *do* intend to sue JMS?
>There should be a law that a "story idea" as you may find written up in an
>off-hand manner on a BBS or usenet can not be copyrighted, only a formal
>written script. That way there would be no problem.
Yes, there should.
But there isn't.
Deal with it.
Look, folks, the problem with story ideas is real. It has little to do
with the imaginary world of the Internet, and nothing to do with the way
things *should* be.
It has a lot to do with real jackasses who file real lawsuits in real
courts over such matters.
And real laws and real judges who will make real problems for JMS if
it comes to that. Like forcing him to spend large ammounts of real
money.
And, for that matter, real cops with real guns who lock JMS in a real
jail cell for a real long time, or possibly make him really dead, if
he consistently ignores the above-mentioned realities.
I hate to be so obnoxiously repetitive about this, but I don't see any
choice when people like Glenn demonstrate such a profound misunderstanding
of the way the world works.
--
*John Schilling * "You can have Peace, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * or you can have Freedom. *
*University of Southern California * Don't ever count on having both *
*Aerospace Engineering Department * at the same time." *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * - Robert A. Heinlein *
*(213)-740-5311 or 747-2527 * Finger for PGP public key *
Brian 'Doc' O'Neill
>I don't know what's up with this shit regarding story ideas...
>
>It's gone nuts. Look, there are millions of people around. People have
>been posting story ideas (wouldn't it be cool if -- variety) into BBSs
>and usenet for a LONG time regarding a variety of shows and I don't think
>the producers read through them and deliberately gave up on story after
>story which may seem similar to the "casual posting".
>
>That's stupid.
_You_ don't understand what's at stake here. Legally, anything someone posts
has an implied copyright. So, if I post the story idea (taken loosely from JMS
example) that a giant Space Duck bites Kosh's big toe, then that's MY
IDEA. Technically, I could sue Warner Bros and JMS if its used, even if JMS
came up with it before me. Regardless of whether or not I could win, it
would cost the studio thousands of dollars to litigate or settle. Therefore,
in order for JMS to participate in discussions here, no story ideas must be
discussed. Or else he leaves and thousands of people will hunt down the one
who posted the idea and let them know how they feel...
>
>Wasn't it said at one time that there are only 11 or so story kernals and
>everything builds from them? There are only so many story ideas out
>there, and if the writers of B5 come up with something that matches a
>story idea from some pimply-faced sci-fi nerd who just makes a casual
>post and has no intention of suing JMS, then I say don't be paranoid
>about it.
But how do you _know_ they don't intend to sue??? You don't, and in this
society, my money is on that they will.
>
>There should be a law that a "story idea" as you may find written up in an
>off-hand manner on a BBS or usenet can not be copyrighted, only a formal
>written script. That way there would be no problem.
>
"Should be" is always nice. Reality is much harsher.
Fact is, copyright law already works to the contrary.
Is it really that hard to understand that we have to go through this every
month?
===========================================================================
Brian O'Neill - Systems Manager, Computer Science one...@cs.uml.edu
University of Massachusetts at Lowell Moderator, comp.binaries.ibm.pc
(508) 934-3645 Co-Moderator, comp.archives.msdos.announce
"I need to find a real job..." - Londo, Babylon-5, "Grail"
Johnny Zen
Besides, anybody who realy feels that they have to post
story ideas, etc can use the Bab-5 creative list. (Sorry
the exact address escapes me for now)
After all thats what the list was created for.
--===(((===[ Schrodeinger's ]===)))===--
John...@aol.com @}-,-`-- Pag...@aol.com
--===(((===[ Garou ]===)))===--
Glenn M. Saunders
regular posting is done (like once a day) that says that story ideas
given within this forum (which are frowned upon anyway) are not protected
by any copyright law, and that entering this newsgroup and posting within
here is taken as an agreement to these terms.
David B. VanMeter
>FROM: Glenn M. Saunders <kri...@max.tiac.net>
>
>Wasn't it said at one time that there are only 11 or so story kernals and
>everything builds from them? There are only so many story ideas out
>there, and if the writers of B5 come up with something that matches a
>story idea from some pimply-faced sci-fi nerd who just makes a casual
>post and has no intention of suing JMS, then I say don't be paranoid
>about it.
>
>There should be a law that a "story idea" as you may find written up in an
>off-hand manner on a BBS or usenet can not be copyrighted, only a formal
>written script. That way there would be no problem.
>
on incurring the costs of defending against a lawsuit? Remember, people
in this country don't get even any more, they get a lawyer. What's to
keep your above mentioned nerd from deciding that; once his idea may
have been worked into the season's highest rated, Emmy winning show
which made all sorts of money for JMS, his company and Warner; he
deserves a sizable chunk of the money. It's not how likely a lawsuit is
that is the issue here, it's the fact that a lawsuit is possible.
Dave
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!FOLKLORE - The end of the !What if the size of the tots is !
!rainbow stands in a river. !proportional to the size of the duck? !
!Anyone who crawls to the river !Londo had better avoid rainbows in !
!on hands and knees and then !rivers! !
!drinks the water from which ! !
!the rainbow is rising will ! !
!instantly change sex. ! !
!Courtesy of the 1994 Weather ! !
!Channel Calendar ! !
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John Schilling
Fine.
And when you are finished, how about embarking on the following projects:
1) Some kind of "financial mumbo-jumbo" that makes every r.a.s.t.b5 reader
an instant billionaire.
2) Some kind of "medical mumbo-jumbo" that gives us all immortality. And
without the Deathwalker catch.
3) Some kind of "technical mumbo-jumbo" that provides each of us with our
own FTL spaceships.
These should be about as easy as the "legal mumbo-jumbo" you are asking for.
Barring an act of congress, there is absolutely no type of disclaimer, public
notification, or other legal trickery which will protect JMS from lawsuits
relating to story ideas posted here. Period.
Check with your local copyright lawyer if you doubt this.
Wayne Davison
> Now that idea is something he can -not- use.
Why not ask the party in question if they would be willing to sign a
document giving the copyright on the story idea in question to jms?
Seems like a better solution than just dropping the story. Since
this is a fairly rare occurance and most of the people don't wish
to see jms inconvienced, I'm sure most people would sign the papers
and send them back to jms. If not, _then_ the story idea would have
to be dropped.
--
Wayne Davison
dav...@borland.com
Robert W. Igo
Why not make the group moderated? Pick someone willing and competent to weed
out story ideas from getting by here.
But I do agree that it seems silly that he can't accept ideas freely given as
just that. If I post something in a public forum, I have to be willing to
accept the consequences that someone will use my idea. The danger would be
if I mentioned a story idea that I had already developed (and copyrighted)
and someone didn't ask me if I had rights to it, I'd be hosed.
It's all very peculiar. Maybe someone needs new lawyers who could actually
allow them to use freely posted story ideas.
[********************************* Bob Igo ********************************]
"Whoah.... This machine is hung..." -- you decide the context
[***************************** gryp...@cmu.edu ***************************]
John Schilling
[much about story ideas deleted]
>But I do agree that it seems silly that he can't accept ideas freely given as
>just that. If I post something in a public forum, I have to be willing to
>accept the consequences that someone will use my idea. The danger would be
>if I mentioned a story idea that I had already developed (and copyrighted)
>and someone didn't ask me if I had rights to it, I'd be hosed.
>It's all very peculiar. Maybe someone needs new lawyers who could actually
>allow them to use freely posted story ideas.
Yes, and I need some new lawyers who could actually allow me to not pay
taxes.
Lawyers do not allow or prohibit anything, it is the laws themselves which
are the problem. US law currently states that anyone who posts a story
idea here has a copyright on that idea, notwithstanding net custom, explicit
disclaimers, etc. If they can show that JMS saw their idea (trivial given
that he is known to read this group) and that he later used the idea (i.e.
it shows up on B5), they can sue him. And, whether they win or lose, they
can cause JMS a great deal of trouble in the process.
This is the law.
Replacing lawyers won't change that fact.
Nothing short of an act of congress or an armed revolution will change that
fact. And I strongly doubt that JMS is in a position to pull off either.
Michael Heser
: I don't know what's up with this shit regarding story ideas...
: That's stupid.
Let's see if I remember them right. The basic, we are talking basic plot
devices are:
Man vs Man
Man vs Environment
Man vs Himself
Something like that.
This entire thread, whether or not something is original, reminds me
of an essay John Barth did entitled The Literature of Exhaustion, in
which he says, I'm paraphrasing here, that everything has alrady been
written already. Literature is just repeating itself. Certain themes,
plots, devices reappear over and over again. But what was important was
that HOW those themes are used by various writers. Each puts his different
spin and interpretation. "...that what matters is not the exhaustion or
the replenishment, both may be illusory, but the literature, which is not."
So maybe you've seen something somewhere before, big deal, you're probably
seeing it in a different way.
----...@omni.voicenet.com----
---------------
.signatures? .signatures? we don't need no stinking .signatures.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Burstein
>
>Lawyers do not allow or prohibit anything, it is the laws themselves which
>are the problem. US law currently states that anyone who posts a story
>idea here has a copyright on that idea, notwithstanding net custom, explicit
>disclaimers, etc. If they can show that JMS saw their idea (trivial given
>that he is known to read this group) and that he later used the idea (i.e.
>it shows up on B5), they can sue him. And, whether they win or lose, they
>can cause JMS a great deal of trouble in the process.
And, folks, that is the key point. It's most likely that even if Joe is sued
by a netizen for stealing an idea that Joe will win. *But*, while the suit is
going on, it is extremely likely that Warner Bros. will halt production of
Babylon 5.
If you recall, part of the reason why the people behind B5 and DS9 chose not
to sue each other is that it simply wasn't worth it. All it would do is put
both shows out of production. (At least, I seem to remember Joe saying
something similar to this to explain why he wouldn't sue DS9. But my memory
may be faulty, so don't go around pointing to this post as proof of what Joe
said on this issue. That's what the archive is for.)
--
Michael A. Burstein, m...@panix.com (Clarion '94 graduate)
"What do you want?"
Babylon 5 Psi Corps Council P14+
"Don't apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem." -- me, to a friend
Alan D Earhart
A suggestion of this sort gets posted every time this subject comes up. If
it were that easy then it would have been done.
You can't give away my rights in this medium so easily. As someone else
suggested, you might want to talk to someone who is versed in copywrite
law if you don't believe it.
Chua Seng Leng Terence
Perhaps Joe is giving up too easily on that story idea. Since public-
domain disclaimers must be in writing to be legally valid, then (assuming
the original poster has no objection) couldn't Joe just request a legally-
binding waiver from the guy? Precludes any possibility of lawsuit, and
allows the story to be done. Sure, maybe some people would try to extort
some compensation out of this; the response would be that the story won't
be done anyway, which is the situation we have now anyway.
Quite correct. JMS should at least *try* to get a form of waiver from
the person concerned. If he can't well, them's the breaks. But even
so, couldn't he prove that the idea was already in production? Memos,
or dated notes, or the like? Independent origination is not
plagiarism, unless the law in the States is drastically different from
what I learnt in the UK.
--
------------
Terence Chua <lawp...@leonis.nus.sg>
"There's no justice. There's just us."
Karl J. Smith
John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
>
>And real laws and real judges who will make real problems for JMS if
>it comes to that. Like forcing him to spend large ammounts of real
>money.
>
The money is probably insignificant compared to the amount of *time*
that will be wasted. Even if he is likely to win such a case, he'll
still lose because of all the time that was wasted dealing with it. I
think that is what concerns him the most. Time, once wasted, doesn't
come back.
It's really not that hard to honor his request not to post story ideas, and
everybody benefits.
-Karl J. Smith
ka...@sparcom.com
C.E.Carter
>
> Perhaps Joe is giving up too easily on that story idea. Since public-
> domain disclaimers must be in writing to be legally valid, then (assuming
> the original poster has no objection) couldn't Joe just request a legally-
> binding waiver from the guy? Precludes any possibility of lawsuit, and
> allows the story to be done. Sure, maybe some people would try to extort
> some compensation out of this; the response would be that the story won't
> be done anyway, which is the situation we have now anyway.
>
> What am I missing, legal-eagles?
Original poster then sues because he/she is just one poor 'ittle biddy
person all on their owneo who was confused by the mass might of the
wicked lawyers working for JMS who tricked him/her into giving up their
emmy-worthy idea for a mess of potage and therefore JMS and his
wicked lawyers deserve to get pounded twice - once for stealing the
truly wonderful idea and secondly for cheating the poor innocent out of
the legitimate mega-bucks that the said poor innocent would have made if
only the said wicked JMS and the said wicked lawyers hadn't undertaken
the said cheating of the said poor little innocent out of the said
mega-bucks for the said totally wunnerful idea.
Catherine - good grief, free legal advice, better lie down quick until it
wears off Carter
__________________________________________________________________________
You cannot hope to bribe or twist )
(Thank God) the British journalist)
But seeing what the man will do )
Unbribed there's no occasion to. )
Curious Of All Natures
>
>It's gone nuts. Look, there are millions of people around. People have
>been posting story ideas (wouldn't it be cool if -- variety) into BBSs
>and usenet for a LONG time regarding a variety of shows and I don't think
>the producers read through them and deliberately gave up on story after
>story which may seem similar to the "casual posting".
The difference between all those forums and rastb5 is that the #1 writer
and creator of the show in question POSTS HERE - not for the purpose of
discarding things other people think of but to read criticism, make
announcements, and in general get a "feel for the room" in the fandom
trenches. He says that for reasons important to him and the show he'll
have to stop if story ideas become a problem.
Unique opportunity, unique rules to maintain it.
-Matthew Ryan,
mb...@kimbark.uchicago.edu Curious Of All Natures
================================== ====================================
If I'm dreaming, never let me wake. You'll never see the end of the road
If I'm awake, never let me sleep. When you're traveling with me.
-old chinese fellow -Crowded House
================================== ====================================
Curious Of All Natures
I think I see your point all of a sudden. Yes, it's paranoia if JMS
reads the nets *because* he's watching for posted story ideas so he can
know what to drop.
However, JMS reads the nets for other reasons. And the fact that
everyone *knows* he reads the nets makes him a legal lightning rod.
No-one would think to sue a tv show for using their idea if they had no
reason to believe that the right people with the show had read it.
Robert W. Igo
with getting the person's permission to use their idea? That's what I
was referring to when I talked about getting new lawyers. Because I
can't believe that if someone were to post their idea for the entire
5-year arc and *nail* it that JMS would just go "Oh well, I have to
go write for 'Barney' now..."
Am I insane?
[********************************* Bob Igo ********************************]
"You can only handle so many Drosophila before you succumb to the urge
to eat them." -- Phil Stroffolino
[***************************** gryp...@cmu.edu ***************************]
Robert W. Igo
Look, not everybody *knows* not to post story ideas here. Perhaps you can
explain how a newbie (such as myself a few weeks ago) can run their mail
program and read rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 for a couple messages and definitely
know not to post story ideas here. You cannot do it unless you rename the
group rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5_no_story_ideas_or_you_will_be_smacked_with_a_bat
Even then there are still idiots and then otherwise very intelligent people
who aren't sure about some of the greyer areas of speculation vs. story ideas.
The only way it can be done for *certain* is to get someone involved who
knows the difference between a story idea and a speculation to moderate the
group. Yeah, I know, with the volume this group gets, it'd be hard as hell
to moderate it, and I don't like the idea myself. However, it is the only way
to be certain, assuming the moderater knows their stuff...
Robert W. Igo
Yes, but could anyone stop him from *reading* it? Let's say he has to
withdraw for legal reasons. He can still read it. I suppose that in
that case, we could all post story ideas and he could use them, right?
I think I'm missing a point somewhere... He can't use story ideas
here as long as he posts here?
[********************************* Bob Igo ********************************]
"I hate it when someone steals my ideas before I think of them." --me
[***************************** gryp...@cmu.edu ***************************]
Karl J. Smith
Robert W. Igo <gryp...@CMU.EDU> wrote:
>
>Look, not everybody *knows* not to post story ideas here. Perhaps you can
>explain how a newbie (such as myself a few weeks ago) can run their mail
>program and read rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 for a couple messages and definitely
>know not to post story ideas here.
In almost every newsgroup, readers are encouraged to read the group
for a while before posting, and to at least read the FAQ for that
group before posting. Newbies who've been on the net for a while, but
who are new to r.a.s.t.b5 will probably know this. Newbies who are
new to the net entirely probably won't. And some people just ignore or
aren't aware of netiquette - e.g. the "Help! Solve my homework problem
for me, and email the reply because I'm too busy to read this
newsgroup" people.
In the comp.os.linux hierarchy, repeated posting of questions answered in
the FAQ, crossposted to the wrong group, etc. are mildly frustrating, but
not fatal.
Here, they could be fatal. (Well, not really, but you get the
idea). So you're right, we need some way to let newbies know after
only a couple of messages that story ideas should not be posted.
> You cannot do it unless you rename the
>group rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5_no_story_ideas_or_you_will_be_smacked_with_a_bat
>
It's more like rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5_please_no_story_ideas_or_jms_will_ \
leave_and_we_like_having_him_here
But that's a bit long for a newsgroup name. :)
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.no_story_ideas might work, but I doubt it would pass
a vote. It's rather unwieldy.
When I post news articles, I get a one-line description of the
newsgroup I'm posting to. I'm pretty sure that this list of
descriptions gets updated semi-regularly - we could try to get the
phrase "No Story Ideas" placed in that line.
Plus, we could have a "Story Ideas FAQ" posted weekly (or even more
often like every other day), and set up so that it superseded previous
versions of itself. If we select the correct article title, it will
show up first in a list alphabetized by subject, and if we keep the
subject the same, it can be kill-filed once people have read it.
If it is posted often enough to always be present, and it is the first
article anyone reads, it may help a lot.
>Even then there are still idiots and then otherwise very intelligent people
>who aren't sure about some of the greyer areas of speculation vs. story ideas.
>The only way it can be done for *certain* is to get someone involved who
>knows the difference between a story idea and a speculation to moderate the
>group. Yeah, I know, with the volume this group gets, it'd be hard as hell
>to moderate it, and I don't like the idea myself. However, it is the only way
>to be certain, assuming the moderater knows their stuff...
If you're not sure that it's not a story idea...don't post it, or post
instead to the mailing list set up for such things. This can be
mentioned in the "Story Ideas FAQ" and left up to the individual
posters to enforce.
Also, I think that being "certain" is an unattainable goal. Moderation won't
make things 100% certain - someone could post a forged approval or the
moderator could make a mistake.
Making the posting of story ideas "less likely" is something that we
*CAN* work on. Does anyone else have any ideas along these lines?
-Karl J. Smith
ka...@sparcom.com
Chua Seng Leng Terence
London University and working my way towards my country's local Bar
Exams. Copyright law in the States is governed by slightly different
rules, but as regards this area of "idea" versus "expression", the
basic concepts are the same.
What pisses me off about the entire copyright situation as concerns
the protection of "ideas" is the basic attitude, which is one of
misconception fueled by fear, confusion and opportunism. The law
*doesn't* have to be like that, but it is.
It is a basic tenet of copyright law that copyright protects
"expression" but not "ideas". What this exactly means is your guess is
as good as mine - it's basically up to the courts to decide. So in one
case the courts decided that a script that involved a alien coming to
Earth, befriending a human, being chased by government agents and
finally going home was *not* a rip-off of "Starman" because it was
mere "ideas" and not the "expression" that was copied (of course, why
ET's creators didn't sue is another question). The courts have usually
bent over backwards *not* to find violations in such cases unless it
is really plain and clear, but that is not an attitude that is either
consistent, or explicity explained in the case law.
This causes uncertainty, and here's where the opportunism comes in.
You get a situation where a person sees a production company with a
similar idea. He/She threatens to sue, even though ultimately, he/she
may lose. The production company lives in fear, because even though
its legal staff may swear on the graves of their collective statutes
that the plaintiff doesn't have a cause of action, they can't be
certain that he/she will lose, and rightly so. In the meantime, since
the idea in question is tied up in litigation waiting to see if it is
metamorphosized by the court into an expression, it can't be used by
either plaintiff or defendant. Which costs more money for the
production company, on top of the legal fees if it goes to court.
Which could take years. And appeals. And more money.
It's not just the law that's the problem, you see. If enough cases
actually went to court maybe some semblance of a consistent judicial
attitude could arise to toss away some of this uncertainty. But the
commercial realities of the industry make it such that it's cheaper to
settle out of court, and that, ironically, feeds the opportunistic
mindset more because suddenly it seems easy to blackmail production
companies. So the basic rule of cover-your-ass gets blown up to
paranoid proportions. Not without good reason.
*IF* someone came up with the idea of a Space Duck biting Londo's
foot and posted it on the Net and JMS had it already in production -
the odds are, when it goes to court, the guy who's trying to squeeze
JMS for cash will lose. But JMS won't be able to afford placing an
entire episode on hold on a hypothetical. *THAT* is the problem.
We should write out the FAQ properly.
Chua Seng Leng Terence
You CANNOT copyright an idea.
You CAN copyright an expression.
But until it goes to court, you don't know which species it is.
Sorry to be nit-picky, but it's in the job description. :)
Re: freely given ideas. The problem with lies with the current
electronic nature of USENET. Copyright has to be signed over in
writing. Now, that means a document that has to be authenticated - how
do you prove, on a balance of probablities (not reasonable doubt, this
is a civil case here), that the document did originate from that
person if it is in an electronic form.
The law currently does not cater for a policy which I proposed once,
in a fit of frustration, namely, "If you let someone else hijack your
terminal and post nonsense on the net and get flak for it, it's your
own fucking fault."
So, until someone actually says so, you need it to be authenticated
somehow, and it's tough to do that on the Net as it stands. Once
digital signatures become more widespread, maybe you got a fighting
chance, but even then...
This is law talk but maybe someone should lobby Congress into
introducing some sort of interlocutory stage for serving
plagiarism-type writs - i.e. just a prelim hearing that could chuck
the suit aside pretty fast, or allow production to go ahead and giving
a guarantee of profit-taking if the plaintiff eventually wins.
This could save a lot of trouble. It's just a thought at the moment.
Rob Furr
lawp...@solar.nus.sg writes:
>Quite correct. JMS should at least *try* to get a form of waiver from
>the person concerned. If he can't well, them's the breaks. But even
>so, couldn't he prove that the idea was already in production? Memos,
>or dated notes, or the like? Independent origination is not
>plagiarism, unless the law in the States is drastically different from
>what I learnt in the UK.
Of course! How could we have been so blind! JMS should try to get a
waiver from Kwicker (the person who posted the original sentence that got
all this hubbub started.) And then, because Kwicker managed to post a
story idea, JMS should try to get a waiver from the next person to
'accidentally' post a story idea. And the next. And the next hundred.
To put it another way...if JMS starts using the policy outlined above,
people would develop the feeling that 'posting story ideas isn't so
bad...after all, JMS can just get me to sign a waiver...' which will
increase the number of story ideas posted dramatically, which will force
Joe to send out _more_ waiver forms, keep track of them, pursue them,
receive them, sort them, double-check them, and so on, which will take
Babylonian Productions/Synthetic Worlds staffers away from doing what
they SHOULD be doing, which is producing the show.
Rob F.
Brian 'Doc' O'Neill
Unfortunately no such legal mumbo-jumbo can be binding. The only way a
person can give up the rights to something is by explicit signature.
Brian 'Doc' O'Neill
|> Quite correct. JMS should at least *try* to get a form of waiver from
|> the person concerned. If he can't well, them's the breaks. But even
|> so, couldn't he prove that the idea was already in production? Memos,
|> or dated notes, or the like? Independent origination is not
|> plagiarism, unless the law in the States is drastically different from
|> what I learnt in the UK.
|>
Ah, but winning the suit isn't the problem - its being tied up in a legal
battle, spending thousands of dollars fighting a suit rather than making a
series, or spending even more money in a settlement cutting in to budget
that makes it not worthwhile.
Tom Krajna
of net copyright law:
1. Attribute all ideas to JMS, even if they're yours.
Why it won't work: your lawsuit will mention that you did this
out of habit, and you didn't really mean it, and everyone was
doing it, and none of them meant it, so pay up!
2. Have a legally-disclaimered AI program post "all possible story
ideas" gatewayed via the JMS login. For example:
Sinclair becomes psychic
Ivanova becomes psychic
Garibaldi becomes psychic
Tech #1 becomes psychic
Babylon 5 becomes psychic
The blue nebula behind Babylon 5 becomes psychic
etc.
Why it won't work: it's impractical to generate "all possible
story ideas" in sufficient detail.
I love shooting down my own ideas, though it leaves me a bit schizophrenic.
Time for me to sign off. Me too.
--Tom K.
Kurt Reisler
Tom Krajna <tgkr...@ingr.com> wrote:
> Sinclair becomes psychic
> Ivanova becomes psychic
> Garibaldi becomes psychic
> Tech #1 becomes psychic
> Babylon 5 becomes psychic
> The blue nebula behind Babylon 5 becomes psychic
> etc.
Ah, you forgot the obvious
Rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 becomes psychic
As opposed to psychotic :-)
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
Who wants to go to London to see Chrysalis?
David A Bergman
: According to Franklin Hummel <hum...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>:
Hmmmm... I was about to post this. Does anyone know a lawyer who can
come up with a signable document renouncing any and all claims to a
particular story idea. It can be a fill in th blanks thing including
the entire post... Then that person (if they're a fan and want
to see the story) can sign the document, get it notarized and send it
to JMS who can then file it away...
The only thing I'm not sure about is whether it is possible to renounce all
claims on a particular idea.
Aaron
: --
: Wayne Davison
: dav...@borland.com
James Dusek
> Franklin Hummel (hum...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) wrote:
> : Over on GEnie, someone mentioned a possible occurrence resulting
> : from the mindwipe process in "The Quality of Mercy" -- which turned out
> : to be a "B" plot JMS had been developing for a future episode. Now that
> : idea is something he can -not- use. He's not to happy about this and
> : again warned folks he might be forced to drop-off the various networks.
Why doesn't he just ask the guy to release the rights in writing to him?
> binding waiver from the guy? Precludes any possibility of lawsuit, and
> allows the story to be done. Sure, maybe some people would try to extort
> some compensation out of this; the response would be that the story won't
> be done anyway, which is the situation we have now anyway.
Well, there are lawyers who will sue just to make a buck, after all win
or loose they still get paid.
James Dusek
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| James Dusek | If the Goverment prints the money, |
| Motorola Inc | why is it always broke? |
| du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Hackborn
| Look, not everybody *knows* not to post story ideas here. Perhaps you can
| explain how a newbie (such as myself a few weeks ago) can run their mail
| program and read rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 for a couple messages and definitely
| know not to post story ideas here. You cannot do it unless you rename the
| group rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5_no_story_ideas_or_you_will_be_smacked_with_a_bat
You should read a newsgroup for at least a couple -weeks- before you start
dumping posts on the group. Or, at the very least, make sure you dig up
and read the FAQ file first. This is simply common netiquette; saying you
don't know is absolutely no excuse when there are things posted at least
every two weeks which tell you not to, along with the innumerable
discussions about this which occur on the group.
Hell, how could you even have a clue as to what is going on in any -thread-
you reply to, if you only read a couple messages? All you're likely to do
is say something everyone else already knows and make a bad first
impression. Which will probably get you thrown in a lot of people's kill
files, considering the size this group has gotten to be.
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn The healthy .sig:
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu - Low in saturated quotes
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne - No artificial disclaimers
Oregon State University - 99% splat free
Jeff Hildebrand
James Dusek <du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com> wrote:
>
> Why doesn't he just ask the guy to release the rights in writing to him?
Quite frankly what I'm hoping happens is that this happens, but
we aren't told about it. Someone has already pointed out that if people
think this is a viable option it means that they're going to be a lot less
careful about posting story ideas and thus the B5 crew is going to have to
spend more and more time on legal paperwork which is not good at all.
-Jeff
--
Jeff Hildebrand, The Shaggy TA hild...@math.wisc.edu
"Spontaneous Human Combustion. *poof* There goes another one! // A raging
fire, a funeral pyre, an unexpected cremation." - The Bobs
no one of consequence
]In article <33t3kg$3...@b23a.b23a.ingr.com>,
]Tom Krajna <tgkr...@ingr.com> wrote:
]> Sinclair becomes psychic
]> Ivanova becomes psychic
]> Garibaldi becomes psychic
]> Tech #1 becomes psychic
]> Babylon 5 becomes psychic
]> The blue nebula behind Babylon 5 becomes psychic
]> etc.
]Ah, you forgot the obvious
] Rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 becomes psychic
]As opposed to psychotic :-)
What? We can't be *both*??
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|
|Member Lovely Angels Fan Club/Fire Support Team/Cleanup Crew |
|"Never pilot a mass produced Mobile Suit design"- Anaheim Custom MS's |
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article....|
Tom Krajna
>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.no_story_ideas might work, but I doubt it would pass
>a vote. It's rather unwieldy.
Actually, we're well on the way to a solution to this problem. It's
quite simple, really. Let's have only *one* subject for all messages
posted to this group:
Re: DO NOT POST STORY IDEAS!
"The rest," as Sinclair might say, "will take care of itself."
--Tom K.
Dirk Loedding
Sc> It has a lot to do with real jackasses who file real lawsuits in real
Sc> courts over such matters.
Sc> And real laws and real judges who will make real problems for JMS if
Sc> it comes to that. Like forcing him to spend large ammounts of real
Sc> money.
Not to mention the fact that production of B5 would probably be halted,
and the fact that JMS would lose part of his life defending against a
lawsuit. More than likely, it would be a frivolous one. More than
likely, JMS would win. But that's beside the point. He'd still have to
spend the money to defend himself, and he'd still lose time he could
have been spending on creating the show. And we'd most likely lose
episodes of the show, or the entire show, for that matter.
Sc> And, for that matter, real cops with real guns who lock JMS in a real
Sc> jail cell for a real long time, or possibly make him really dead, if
Sc> he consistently ignores the above-mentioned realities.
That's probably an extreme case....they'd just shut down the show, and
make him pay lots of money if he lost. And we'd all miss out on seeing
the rest of the series.
Sc> I hate to be so obnoxiously repetitive about this, but I don't see any
Sc> choice when people like Glenn demonstrate such a profound
Sc> misunderstanding of the way the world works.
Keep on being repetitive. Maybe someday, we'll manage to get through
the thick skulls of some people here who just don't get it.
I know I'd still read this newsgroup, and I know I'd still watch the
show even if JMS had to leave the newsgroup....but the newsgroup would
be greatly diminished without JMS's presence here.
... Dirk Loedding dirk.l...@datadim.com (or dirk.l...@tdd.com)
---
ş Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ş
Dirk Loedding
On> kri...@max.tiac.net (Glenn M. Saunders) writes:
>There should be a law that a "story idea" as you may find written up in an
>off-hand manner on a BBS or usenet can not be copyrighted, only a formal
>written script. That way there would be no problem.
On> "Should be" is always nice. Reality is much harsher.
On> Fact is, copyright law already works to the contrary.
True, unfortunately...in this case, at least.
On> Is it really that hard to understand that we have to go through this
On> every month?
Apparently. But, I'd rather go through this every month than not have
JMS participate here.
Wayne Davison
> Of course! How could we have been so blind! JMS should try to get a
> waiver from Kwicker (the person who posted the original sentence that got
> all this hubbub started.) And then, because Kwicker managed to post a
> story idea, JMS should try to get a waiver from the next person to
> 'accidentally' post a story idea. And the next. And the next hundred.
A hundred?! How about 5. IFF the waiver idea has any legal merit, no one
(in this sub-thread at least) is suggesting that we drop the no-story-ideas
restriction that would unleash the flood waters. It would simply be nice
if one of the _rare_ postings of story ideas that happen to match a story
concept in development didn't result in an automatic dropping of the idea
from the show. According to jms there have been very few cases of this
happening.
--
Wayne Davison
dav...@borland.com
Bruce Goatly
John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> vouchsafes:
> Lawyers do not allow or prohibit anything, it is the laws
> themselves which are the problem. US law currently states
> that anyone who posts a story idea here has a copyright on
> that idea, notwithstanding net custom, explicit disclaimers,
> etc. If they can show that JMS saw their idea (trivial
> given that he is known to read this group) and that he later
> used the idea (i.e. it shows up on B5), they can sue him.
> And, whether they win or lose, they can cause JMS a great
> deal of trouble in the process. This is the law. Replacing
> lawyers won't change that fact.
>
> Nothing short of an act of congress or an armed revolution
> will change that fact. And I strongly doubt that JMS is in
> a position to pull off either.
Oh, (G)god(s), I'm not sure I ought to get drawn into this one, but I work
in publishing so have a bit of background. So I might as well air my
ignorance in public.
While I'm not in a position to comment on the correctness or otherwise of Mr
Schilling's comments on US law, it may be relevant that (as I understand it)
under UK law, copyright is property like any other commodity and so can be
bought, sold, licensed in part or in whole or given away. So if somebody
states in a document that they are assigning all rights to a story idea to
jms, that would be good enough - except that there is currently no way of
*signing* such a document, and its legality would therefore be doubtful.
The whole area of copyright on the Internet is really murky, mainly because
it crosses international boundaries. I can't see any way of resolving the
problem, other than by not posting story ideas to this group, as requested.
Just my 2p worth.
--
Sig still covered in scaffolding
+------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Bruce Goatly | Astronomy teaches us the correct use |
|br...@goatly.demon.co.uk| of the sun and the planets. |
| Archimedes, not PC! | (Stephen Leacock) |
+------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
John Schilling
>Schi...@spock.usc.edu writes:
[why story ideas here are really, really bad]
> Sc> And, for that matter, real cops with real guns who lock JMS in a real
> Sc> jail cell for a real long time, or possibly make him really dead, if
> Sc> he consistently ignores the above-mentioned realities.
>That's probably an extreme case....they'd just shut down the show, and
>make him pay lots of money if he lost. And we'd all miss out on seeing
>the rest of the series.
The cops with guns come into play if/when JMS decides to ignore that silly
court order prohibitiong production of B5, and go right on making new
episodes anyway. After all, if the lawsuit is "stupid" by our standards,
why shouldn't it be ignored?
NOT that I am suggesting JMS would be insane enough to do such a thing, but
the tone of some of the posters here suggest that they believe it is reasonable
to completely ignore the legal realities involved simply because the law is
wrong/stupid. The ultimate consequence of such behavior is, of course, men
with guns kicking down one's door.
--
*John Schilling * "You can have Peace, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * or you can have Freedom. *
*University of Southern California * Don't ever count on having both *
*Aerospace Engineering Department * at the same time." *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * - Robert A. Heinlein *
*(213)-740-5311 or 747-2527 * Finger for PGP public key *
Melanie Fletcher
>
> It's gone nuts. Look, there are millions of people around. People have
> been posting story ideas (wouldn't it be cool if -- variety) into BBSs
> and usenet for a LONG time regarding a variety of shows and I don't think
> the producers read through them and deliberately gave up on story after
> story which may seem similar to the "casual posting".
>
Au contraire, ma petite fromage. Read on.
> >Wasn't it said at one time that there are only 11 or so story kernals an
d
> >everything builds from them? There are only so many story ideas out
> >there, and if the writers of B5 come up with something that matches a
> >story idea from some pimply-faced sci-fi nerd who just makes a casual
> >post and has no intention of suing JMS, then I say don't be paranoid
> >about it.
Actually, I think you're thinking about the rumor that there are only 6 SF
storylines and Jules Verne came up with them all. But I digress.
Regarding jms and paranoia about story ideas posted to the net, you have to
understand that three simple things can lead to a mongo big lawsuit that
would cost him and Warner Bros. money, time, and incentive to make any
more SF shows--1) spontaneous non-related story development, 2) our
society's love of litigation, especially against people/companies/whatever
who are bigger, stronger and RICHER than the plaintiff, and 3) the legal
ambiguity of the Internet.
I'll use some stories (two of which, for some weird reason, involve Steven
Spielberg) to demonstrate:
1) Spontaneous non-related story development--back in 1987, I was working
on a novel about what would happen if a scientist could imprint a human
soul onto a computer mainframe. One night, my sister was watching "Amazing
Stories," and suddenly yells at me to come and watch. It was the episode,
"The Eternal Mind" which--get this--almost exactly copied my novel's plot.
Now, I KNOW Stevie Boy hadn't sent his little elves to snatch my story--it
was simply a coincidence. And being a reasonable person, I shrugged and
hoped that people wouldn't assume I had plagarised the AS episode. Since
then the idea's popped up in lots of stories and movies, most recently the
"Robocop" TV series, and it's hard to believe that ALL of these people
watched the AS episode. Two writers CAN come up with the same story--it
happens.
2) Litigation--I had a writing prof in college who had once submitted this
absolutely wretched SF story to a contest where Spielberg was one of the
judges. (I know the story was wretched because we were forced to read all
of his stuff--bleah.) The story had some harebrained plot about messiahs
and time travel, very heavy on the message and pseudo-Christianity and
light on the humor. A few years later Spielberg comes out with "Back to
the Future" and my prof promptly sues him because HE used the phrase "we
have to get back to the future" in HIS story. There was no other
similarity, believe me, but the prof thought that his idea had been stolen,
dammit, and he was going to do something about it. Worse yet, he told my
class with some pride that "These Goliaths have to learn that they can't
push we Davids around." Luckily the judge told him he was a complete git
and threw the case out, but he's still proud of the fact that HE took
Spielberg to court.
3) The legal ambiguity of the Internet: while the idea of an implied
copyright is accepted at the moment, there is no rock-hard evidence that
this would be upheld in a court of law (so says my bro-in-law the lawyer).
Eventually someone will sue someone else over plagarism of something
posted to the net and the question will be decided--hopefully--once and for
all, but at the moment net-plagarism and the law are still in uncharted
waters.
What this boils down to is that jms has a legitimate reason for not wanting
story ideas posted here. Yes, some people are reasonable, civilized and
wouldn't think of suing if they saw an idea they'd posted to this group
pop up on Babylon 5--but other people would be on the phone to a lawyer
before the ep had finished. As I said, the whole legality of the matter
will be decided someday in a landmark case, but I would assume that jms
doesn't want his name on that particular legal brief.
MMF
*****************************************************************
Melanie Miller-Fletcher flet...@geloser.login.qc.ca
Core Member, SFLAaE/BS * Babe Feminist * Expatriate Chicagoan
"Eat, move, breathe. . .and carry a big stick."
-----Susan Powter, by way of Hoosier Red
*****************************************************************
gary weiner
>"Robert W. Igo" <gryp...@CMU.EDU> writes:
>
>
>[much about story ideas deleted]
>
>
>>But I do agree that it seems silly that he can't accept ideas freely given as
>>just that. If I post something in a public forum, I have to be willing to
>>accept the consequences that someone will use my idea. The danger would be
>>if I mentioned a story idea that I had already developed (and copyrighted)
>>and someone didn't ask me if I had rights to it, I'd be hosed.
>
>>It's all very peculiar. Maybe someone needs new lawyers who could actually
>>allow them to use freely posted story ideas.
>
>
>Yes, and I need some new lawyers who could actually allow me to not pay
>taxes.
>
>
>Lawyers do not allow or prohibit anything, it is the laws themselves which
>are the problem. US law currently states that anyone who posts a story
>idea here has a copyright on that idea, notwithstanding net custom, explicit
>disclaimers, etc. If they can show that JMS saw their idea (trivial given
>that he is known to read this group) and that he later used the idea (i.e.
>it shows up on B5), they can sue him. And, whether they win or lose, they
>can cause JMS a great deal of trouble in the process.
I can't stand it anymore. Does no one here have even a basic idea of
what copyright is and what it protects?
Copyrights do not protect ideas. They protect specific expressions of
those ideas. Okay? In the hypothetical "Mutant duck bites Kosh's big
toe" idea, if JMS were to use this idea after it was posted, the author
of the post could sue (this is America, you can always sue) IF they
could find a lawyer stupid enough to take such an unwinnable case on
contingency (i.e. the lawyer doesn't get paid unless they win) or IF
they had more money than brains and paid the lawyer up front.
If copyrights protected idea, Christopher Tolkien would be richer than
Bill Gates with all the royalties from all the LOTR "inspired" books
that have been published in the last 30 years.
>
>This is the law.
>
No it isn't
--
Gary J. Weiner - The Electron Man | "The killer awoke before dawn, he put
National Synchrotron Light Source | his boots on...he took a face from
wei...@bnlux1.bnl.gov | the ancient gallery and he walked on
PO BOX 715 Upton, NY 11973 | down the hall." - J. Morrison
Dan Bongard
> Well, there are lawyers who will sue just to make a buck, after all win
>or loose they still get paid.
In most civil cases the lawyers paid a percentage of what the
plaintiff is awarded, and nothing more. Or, at least, that's what I
recall.
dbon...@ucsd.edu
Daniel Bongard
Dianne Hackborn
| Another good idea. Who would post such a critter, though? Maybe we can
| get some of the regulars here to share the task...X posts it on Monday,
| Y posts it on Tuesday, etc...
That shouldn't be a problem -- just set up a cron job to automatically post
it once a day. Er, I guess that's a volunteer if people think this is a
good idea.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Stupidity has a certain charm --
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu ignorance does not."
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
Oregon State University -- Frank Zappa
John Schilling
>In article <33qqvs$5...@spock.usc.edu> schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) writes:
>>Lawyers do not allow or prohibit anything, it is the laws themselves which
>>are the problem. US law currently states that anyone who posts a story
>>idea here has a copyright on that idea, notwithstanding net custom, explicit
>>disclaimers, etc. If they can show that JMS saw their idea (trivial given
>>that he is known to read this group) and that he later used the idea (i.e.
>>it shows up on B5), they can sue him. And, whether they win or lose, they
>>can cause JMS a great deal of trouble in the process.
>I can't stand it anymore. Does no one here have even a basic idea of
>what copyright is and what it protects?
Yes. You, however, do not.
>Copyrights do not protect ideas. They protect specific expressions of
>those ideas. Okay? In the hypothetical "Mutant duck bites Kosh's big
>toe" idea, if JMS were to use this idea after it was posted, the author
>of the post could sue (this is America, you can always sue) IF they
>could find a lawyer stupid enough to take such an unwinnable case on
>contingency (i.e. the lawyer doesn't get paid unless they win) or IF
>they had more money than brains and paid the lawyer up front.
Sorry, but a brief outline of a proposed story IS copyrightable, and can
be used as the basis of a VALID lawsuit. Consider the recent incident
involving Art Buchwald and Paramount (?) regarding the alleged plagiarism
of _Coming to America_.
This should not be the case, but it is.
>If copyrights protected idea, Christopher Tolkien would be richer than
>Bill Gates with all the royalties from all the LOTR "inspired" books
>that have been published in the last 30 years.
Not. Most of the LOTR-inspired books copied style, not plot. Style is
not subject to copyright, plot is. And in any event, JRR copied the basic
plot elements of LOTR from earlier, public-domain sources and thus does
not have copyright on them.
>>
>>This is the law.
>>
>No it isn't
Check with a copyright lawyer before posting misinformation, please.
John Schilling
>Oh, (G)god(s), I'm not sure I ought to get drawn into this one, but I work
>in publishing so have a bit of background. So I might as well air my
>ignorance in public.
>
>While I'm not in a position to comment on the correctness or otherwise of Mr
>Schilling's comments on US law, it may be relevant that (as I understand it)
>under UK law, copyright is property like any other commodity and so can be
>bought, sold, licensed in part or in whole or given away. So if somebody
>states in a document that they are assigning all rights to a story idea to
>jms, that would be good enough - except that there is currently no way of
>*signing* such a document, and its legality would therefore be doubtful.
You got it. Signed and notarized disclaimers would solve the problem,
but there is no valid mechanism for such in electronic media like usenet.
American law demands ink on paper for such purposes.
And the effort involved in correlating ink-and-paper disclaimer forms with
electronic postings would be such a hassle for everyone involved that I
don't see it as a practical alternative, as some have suggested.
>
>The whole area of copyright on the Internet is really murky, mainly because
>it crosses international boundaries. I can't see any way of resolving the
>problem, other than by not posting story ideas to this group, as requested.
>
>Just my 2p worth.
Actually, I'll bet JMS payed his lawyers a lot more than 2p to come up with
exactly the same thing. You need to raise your fees :-)
Kevin B Black
In article <778112...@carterce.demon.co.uk>, "C.E.Carter" (Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk) writes:
>In article <33lb7f$j...@netaxs.com> r...@netaxs.com "User Support" writes:
>
>>
>> Perhaps Joe is giving up too easily on that story idea. Since public-
>> domain disclaimers must be in writing to be legally valid, then (assuming
>> the original poster has no objection) couldn't Joe just request a legally-
>> binding waiver from the guy? Precludes any possibility of lawsuit, and
>> allows the story to be done. Sure, maybe some people would try to extort
>> some compensation out of this; the response would be that the story won't
>> be done anyway, which is the situation we have now anyway.
>>
>
>Original poster then sues because he/she is just one poor 'ittle biddy
>person all on their owneo who was confused by the mass might of the
>wicked lawyers working for JMS who tricked him/her into giving up their
>emmy-worthy idea for a mess of potage and therefore JMS and his
>wicked lawyers deserve to get pounded twice - once for stealing the
>truly wonderful idea and secondly for cheating the poor innocent out of
>the legitimate mega-bucks that the said poor innocent would have made if
>only the said wicked JMS and the said wicked lawyers hadn't undertaken
>the said cheating of the said poor little innocent out of the said
>mega-bucks for the said totally wunnerful idea.
>
So why can't the person with the great story idea, write (on paper)
the story idea, with a suitable disclaimer/waiver donating the story
idea to JMS, Babalonian Productions, or what ever? I guess JMS
could also pay a "penny" for the idea, if used, wasn't there a
TV-film on UK TV a few years ago, where the (well known) author had
sold the story to them for a "penny"? I guess there could be a few
gray patches, but things are very rarely black and white (are they
Joe?).
KevinBB. l_...@vb.nwl.ac.uk
Kevin B Black
>Yes, but could anyone stop him from *reading* it? Let's say he has to
>withdraw for legal reasons. He can still read it. I suppose that in
>that case, we could all post story ideas and he could use them, right?
>I think I'm missing a point somewhere... He can't use story ideas
>here as long as he posts here?
>
Can't work, if X posts his story idea, and sees it on TV, then he
is still in a position to sue, Joe, who we know has read the group
in the past, would (I think) then be in the position of having to
prove that he has not continued to read it; so for this reason he
would *have* to stop, and probably make sure he disposed of all
access to the net, so that he could [try] to prove he hadn't seen
the idea on the net.
KevinBB.
l_...@vb.nwl.ac.uk
Bill Hendrick
>From: cta...@epas.utoronto.ca (Cheryl Tallan)
>Subject: Re: DO NOT POST STORY IDEAS!
>Date: 1 Sep 1994 16:25:59 GMT
>Some have suggested that there is aproblem with attaching a disclaimer
>to storu ideas, relinquishing rights. They say that the problem is
>that one cannot legally sign and notarize the disclaimer.
{deleted}
>So - why can't people toss out ideas and add the disclaimer "This idea
>is in the public domain."? So long as they don't do so in a separate message.
>David Tallan
>who doesn't read mail here so don't hit the "r" button
>I read mail at:
>tal...@gov.on.ca
>please ignore sig file below
>--
>Cheryl Tallan cta...@epas.utoronto.ca
I could be wrong, but I think that it goes beyond the legal
aspects. B5 is JMS's project. He has worked long and hard to get it on the
air and he deserves an awful lot of credit for getting this thing off the
ground and into production. He has also done a lot of work on the main plot
and the subplots, so why should he have to share credit with anyone who just
happens to stubble across the same idea.
Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hendrick
Tech #1 is 'NUMBER ONE'
as opposed to
'THE ONE'!!!!!
Cheryl Tallan
to storu ideas, relinquishing rights. They say that the problem is
that one cannot legally sign and notarize the disclaimer.
So if I, David Tallan, post story idea X to the net and, in the same
message write "Go ahead and use it all, I relinquish all rights and
put this idea into the public domain" my signature may not be valid.
After all, it might be someone else posting from my account (or
forging my name to a posting) and it really isn't me "signing" the
electronic message.
BUT - then it really isn't me posting the idea. It seems to me that if
the disclaimer and the idea are in the same document, there should be
no problem. The identity of the signer (ie. possible forgery) is not
an issue. It is clear that *whoever* signed away rights, was the
author of the idea. If I later take jms to court saying "An electronic
signature cannot be validated, it wasn't me that signed it. I didn't
give up rights to the idea" all he has to do is say "If it wasn't you,
then it wasn't your idea".
To those who say : "who needs evidence. The person could take him to
court andd cause problems anyways". Then, I could take him to court
now. Surely, *some* case is needed before they'll shut down production.
Otherwise,they'd be drowning in nuisance suits as people sue them and
agree to settle out of court for say, $15,000 - clearly a big savings
in terms of lost production time costs.
John Schilling
>Some have suggested that there is aproblem with attaching a disclaimer
>to storu ideas, relinquishing rights. They say that the problem is
>that one cannot legally sign and notarize the disclaimer.
>So if I, David Tallan, post story idea X to the net and, in the same
>message write "Go ahead and use it all, I relinquish all rights and
>put this idea into the public domain" my signature may not be valid.
>After all, it might be someone else posting from my account (or
>forging my name to a posting) and it really isn't me "signing" the
>electronic message.
>BUT - then it really isn't me posting the idea. It seems to me that if
>the disclaimer and the idea are in the same document, there should be
>no problem. The identity of the signer (ie. possible forgery) is not
>an issue. It is clear that *whoever* signed away rights, was the
>author of the idea. If I later take jms to court saying "An electronic
>signature cannot be validated, it wasn't me that signed it. I didn't
>give up rights to the idea" all he has to do is say "If it wasn't you,
>then it wasn't your idea".
Problem is, the legal purpose of a sinature is to prove that the individual
in question actually wrote something *and* that they actually meant it.
Proof of the former does not address the latter concern, thus an unsigned
document is not legally binding regardless of who wrote it.
And for this purpose, electronic signatures are not legally binding. It
is perfectly legal for you to put a disclaimer on the end of your post
releasing it to the public domain, and later sue JMS anyway. You simply
say to the judge: "Yes, I wrote the disclaimer. But I didn't really mean
it, and JMS had no right to take my story like he did". Legally, you
would be in the right on that particular issue.
>To those who say : "who needs evidence. The person could take him to
>court andd cause problems anyways". Then, I could take him to court
>now. Surely, *some* case is needed before they'll shut down production.
>Otherwise,they'd be drowning in nuisance suits as people sue them and
>agree to settle out of court for say, $15,000 - clearly a big savings
>in terms of lost production time costs.
Evidence is indeed needed to bring even a nuisance suit. The evidence
required is proof that A: you created a story idea, B: JMS saw the story
idea, and C: JMS later used the story idea.
As long as JMS posts here, archived r.a.s.t.b5 postings take care of
A and B simultaneously, and a videotape of the appropriate episode handles
C. JMS is now in the position of proving he *didn't* steal the idea.
Expensive and time-consuming.
But if he gives up his net feed, B can no longer be proven and he is safe.
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> My advice then would be to do some kind of legal mumbo jumbo so that
> a regular posting is done (like once a day) that says that story
> ideas given within this forum (which are frowned upon anyway) are
> not protected by any copyright law, and that entering this newsgroup
> and posting within here is taken as an agreement to these terms.
>
YOUR advice? Which state(s) have you passed the Bar Exam in, and in
which states are you a member of the Bar?
Do you actually think your opinions on the way things should be actually
reflect the operation of our legal system?
(1) You can NOT give up your rights to anything you write, even if it's
posted on InterNet, without executing a WRITTEN contract, in multiple
copies, signed in ink, with all concerned parties retaining at least
one copy.
(2) In this country, ANYONE can sue ANYONE, over ANYTHING. Normally,
"frivolous" suits get thrown out of court. In cases judged to
have more merit, investigations and trial preparations may begin;
in such cases, it is common to issue a court order to restrain
one or both parties from continuing actions about to be disputed
in court.
In actual practice, this has occasionally resulted in the production
of a TV series being SHUT DOWN while the case is handled.
SOOOOOoo... the problem is *not* whether JMS, et al, would WIN the case,
since most of the ideas and concepts, and even the plot elements we've
seen to date are hoary old chestnuts beloved of adventure yarners since
the days when Homer was collating all the heroic stories he could find
into the Iliad and the Odyssey, BUT, what kind of time loss, both studio
and personal, would be involved in getting loose from the legal hassles.
In practice, many studios have made it a habit to just pay off and get the
plaintiffs to sign a release, because it's cheaper in the long run, even
when they know they can win in court.
But there is *NO* reason JMS and WB, et al, should be subjected to this
kind of hassle just because a flock of addlepated adolescents think they
have a right to make JMS read their own drivel.
In short, IF YOUR STORY IS SO DAMN GOOD, WRITE IT IN A SETTING *OUTSIDE*
THE B-5 UNIVERSE, and then SELL IT TO AN SF MAGAZINE. If you can't
sell it anywhere, that should give you a clue as to its actual value....
Dirk Loedding
DH> That shouldn't be a problem -- just set up a cron job to automatically
DH> post it once a day. Er, I guess that's a volunteer if people think
DH> this is a good idea.
Like I said, I think it's a good idea. Now...do we actually have such a
critter as the story ideas FAQ *written*? Do we have a volunteer from
the audience? I can't, and won't, because I know my writing skills are
nowhere near the level of some of the other talented people that
populate this newsgroup.
As for the frequency of posting, it should definitely be on a daily
basis for a while, and then less frequently (twice a week?) once fall
quarter is well underway....that way we'll catch the real newbies before
any damage can be done, I hope.
... Dirk Loedding dirk.l...@datadim.com
Leonard Erickson
"WI> Yes, but could anyone stop him from *reading* it? Let's say he has to
"WI> withdraw for legal reasons. He can still read it. I suppose that in
"WI> that case, we could all post story ideas and he could use them, right?
"WI> I think I'm missing a point somewhere... He can't use story ideas
"WI> here as long as he posts here?
What you are missing is that under todays legal climate, the following
is possible:
JMS is working on a script.
Joe Blow posts a story idea that vaguely resembles an element
of the script.
When the script is aired, Joe Blow sues JMS claiming that JMS
"stole" "his" idea.
Even if JMS is lucky enough to be able to *easily* prove that he didn't
steal the idea, it'll still cost a lot of money and waste a lot of
time. And generate bad publicity. In most cases, it's next to
impossible to "prove" that an idea isn't stolen. So it gets worse.
This sort of thing is why unsolicited manuscripts are *never* accepted
unless they go thru an agent. Too many people got burned by amateurs
who wouldn't believe that anybody else could have come up with "their"
idea independtly. And there were cases where things were stolen.
So if folks post story ideas here, JMS *has* to quit reading. The
studio and their lawyers wouldn't *let* him keep reading. It'd be too
big of a liability problem.
... "We hAvE yOuR mArS pRoBe. We WaNt 1 bIlIiOn CrEdItS iN 24 Hrs." - Zrne
Robert W. Igo
You are certainly correct. However, idiot-proof systems underestimate
the sheer genius of the idiot. Unfortunately, you don't need nettiquette
in order to get net access.
[********************************* Bob Igo ********************************]
"It goes against one's instincts to think of guinea pigs." --Dr. E. Jones
[***************************** gryp...@cmu.edu ***************************]
D. Pat Beckfield
>In message <33oamb$b...@sundog.tiac.net>,
<deletions for brevity>
>
>Why not make the group moderated? Pick someone willing and competent to weed
>out story ideas from getting by here.
>
Somehow I don't think I'll here the electronic equivalent of a thunering herd.
>
>But I do agree that it seems silly that he can't accept ideas freely given as
>just that. If I post something in a public forum, I have to be willing to
>accept the consequences that someone will use my idea. The danger would be
>if I mentioned a story idea that I had already developed (and copyrighted)
>and someone didn't ask me if I had rights to it, I'd be hosed.
>
>It's all very peculiar. Maybe someone needs new lawyers who could actually
>allow them to use freely posted story ideas.
>
I'm not a lawyer, but I have a vested interest in copyright law.
If one posts a story idea in a public forum, it is exactly because it's
in a public forum that an intelligent author will shy away from it. As
soon as an idea is set in some form -- paper, electronic, or verbal --
it becomes the copyrighted property of the author. No amount of breast-
beating can change that. If JMS wanted to spend the rest of his natural
born days in courtrooms, all he'd have to do is take a couple of these
ideas and put them in a plot. Sure as random chance made little green
apples, somebody'd file a suit to get some of the money. The lawyers
would cheerfully trot out the posts and witnesses, and would walk away
with fees, win, lose, or draw.
Even the disclaimers that some people think would solve everything do
not, in fact, solve ANYTHING! Think of the warnings on the "playlands"
at McDonalds and Burger King. Those have NOT prevented people from suing
(and winning) suits for injuries. Closer to the point, physicians sit
down everyday with patients and explain that every operation includes
a risk that the patient could die -- but that doesn't protect them from
wrongful death suits when Auntie May (who was 92 and sure to live for
another 20 years) craps out during a heart/liver/lung transplant.
Face it. You may think it'd be neat for JMS to use your idea. But when
a lawyer calls you up and says you could get $50K or $100K or $1M from
a "big wheel like JMS", you might just believe the critter -- and JMS
can't afford that.
Do me a favor. Don't post story ideas here. I enjoy Kosh -- I mean JMS's
writings too much.
--
D. Patrick Beckfield, Tech writer pat.be...@network.com
Network Systems Corporation (612) 391-1260
7600 Boone Ave North
Minneapolis, MN 55428
Will Guynes
U>
> Ks> Plus, we could have a "Story Ideas FAQ" posted weekly (or even m
> Ks> often like every other day), and set up so that it superseded pr
> Ks> versions of itself. If we select the correct article title, it w
> Ks> show up first in a list alphabetized by subject, and if we keep
> Ks> subject the same, it can be kill-filed once people have read it.
> Another good idea. Who would post such a critter, though? Maybe we
> get some of the regulars here to share the task...X posts it on Monda
> Y posts it on Tuesday, etc...
Good lord. If you two think you could get the netters so well organized
that an idea such as that worked, you're dreaming! :) Someone wouldn't
post it, or go on vacation, or something else... and it'd get stuck.
Will Guynes
will....@graphics.com
will....@burgbord.uu.holonet.net
* RM 1.3 02147 *
Bruce Goatly
> You are certainly correct. However, idiot-proof systems
> underestimate the sheer genius of the idiot. Unfortunately,
> you don't need nettiquette in order to get net access.
but you can't make it bloody foolproof." Present writer included, of course.
:-)
--bruce
---
The shape of DNA, it is popularly said, owes its discovery to the chance
sight of a spiral staircase.... Had he used the lift, the whole science of
genetics might have been a good deal different.*
*Although, possibly, quicker. And only licensed to carry fourteen people.
(Terry Pratchett, _Sourcery_)
User Support
: Some have suggested that there is aproblem with attaching a disclaimer
All very reasonable, and logical. However, this is currently not the law
of the land. What we really need is a test case, a ruling, and a
precedent set so that this problem goes away forever. Are there any
wealthy crusaders out there who would like to initiate a test case
against somebody who posts an idea that you were working on for
publication?
J Eric Chard
>
> DH> That shouldn't be a problem -- just set up a cron job to automatically
> DH> post it once a day. Er, I guess that's a volunteer if people think
> DH> this is a good idea.
>
I agree that a cron job (sounds kinky) once a day, or every 2 days,
would be good to keep down the newbie scum.
Also, isn't there a new specific group designed to capture all these
frustrated wannabees? rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.creative or some such?
***********************************************************************
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* (OOOOOOO) Welcome to Seattle! | Film and Video Productions *
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"All I know is what I see on the monitors."
Kevin Jundt
Leonard....@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> This sort of thing is why unsolicited manuscripts are *never* accepted
> unless they go thru an agent. Too many people got burned by amateurs
> who wouldn't believe that anybody else could have come up with "their"
> idea independtly. And there were cases where things were stolen.
>
> So if folks post story ideas here, JMS *has* to quit reading. The
> studio and their lawyers wouldn't *let* him keep reading. It'd be too
> big of a liability problem.
Case in point: Warner Bros. just had lost a suit by a writer who claimed
that the plot for "Northern Exposure" was so close to a story he developed
that it must have been stolen. I think the judgment is around $6.5M or
something outrageous like that. I'm sure they will appeal but the legal
fees alone...
Can't blame JMS for being cautious...can't blame him at all!
--
K....
The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. - Oscar Wilde
Jim Shupe
If he hadn't and he hadn't had any connection with Warner, I don't see
how he could have won the case. The problem with these cases is this:
let's say that I pitch this great idea about an American Indian working
at IBM who goes on to change IBM forever. Warner's says no way, wouldn't
work. The guy I pitch it to (or gal) talk to someone who talks to someone
who talks to someone who talks to a writer and the writer has no idea
that I pitched it first. Four or five years down the line this series
looks like a good idea and they do it. Now, did that writer steal my
idea, was it her/his fault? It definitely is Warner's fault as they
should have kept a record of what had been pitched.
I agree, JMS should be cautious but what's more important is we should
be respectful of his wishes IF we want to keep him around.
--
The above text contains my opinions, not IBM's. Unless otherwise stated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitakuye Oyasin, JT Waya Gola Shupe
Internal ID:(shupe@rchland) External ID:(JT_WayaG...@Vnet.ibm.com)
Dept. 45N : Performance Tools III AS400 Division Rochester, MN
Associate Programmer, Professional AISES member 507/253-4318