Yo Theron
strac...@genie.geis.com
another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
provide them to you.
First Deb (or whoever)...screw off. I don't have to provide you with
zip. You say you work at a campus, you're a student. Allow me to introudce
you to the concept of "research." This isn't top secret classified
material; this is the most easily accessible information on the planet.
Every week DAILY VARIETY and the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER list ratings for the
syndicated and network shows (and yes, they ARE considered two separate
things, as anyone who bothered to do the LEAST amount of digging into the
question instead of relying on the person they're smearing and badrapping
to provide it for them because they ask for it, like it's some kind of
holy obligation). You wanna know the ratings? Come our next batch of
new episodes, why don't you just drag your smarmy, accusatory, "you know
you really can't trust him, he's a producer, oh, we won't call him a liar,
but we'll just whisper it" ass down to the campus library and LOOK IT UP.
"...one producer who goes only by his initials...."
Excuse me, but what the hell does THAT bit of smear-tactic mean when
my name is right on top of every single damned message I post? Do you mean
that after all this time you -- gasp! -- don't know WHO I AM? You mean you
see "only" some initials on the bottom of a message and you're so confused
by who this might be that you've fallen down the dark, dusty staircase you
call your cerebullum and now can't get up? Good heavens, I've had an
alias all this time and I haven't known it! I'm a stealth producer! No
one knows who I am, just those....INITIALS! Suddenly I feel like the
Batman.
In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
be reposted here, because it always is.
You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
something's WRONG, isn't it?
Re: my veracity, you say, "I'd be wary and seek a second opinion or
read very carefully to see what info isn't being said."
And because something isn't being said, you thererfore assume that
something's wrong, being held back. And what precise second opinion did
you have in mind? Perhaps the PUBLISHED TRADES I commended to you a
moment ago?
Enough. Enough of you, and your father/alter ego; enough of your
smears, and your oh-so-carefully-phrased-not-to-use-bad-words, let's jsut
call him a liar *quietly*, and your lurking on the back fence as we have
a decent conversation, adding nothing but a murmuring, soft voice that
mewls "don't trust him, don't trust him"...at whom somebody ought to toss
an old shoe.
I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
place.
Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
jms
Douglas Thomas Adamson
|> I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
|>yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
|>said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
|>homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
|>pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
|>poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
|>place.
|>
|> Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
|>
|> jms
|>
I have seen the wrath of Joe and believe me Khan has NOTHING on this guy.
Now what about the Church of Joe ?
Douglas T. Adamson
:- In the process of becoming someone they base a two
part episode of 'The X-Files' on.
:- Believe it.
Quis Custodiet?
for another episode of B5, all I have to do is come here, read your
posts and get the brilliance injected directly into my veins. ;)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Munoz - "The FOO, the Proud, the FOO" - FOO: FOO Of Oberlin
kmu...@cs.oberlin.edu skm...@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
http://consult2.cc.oberlin.edu/consultants/kevin/pillars.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Free Information --- Information Freely"
DEBORAH R FULLER
> Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
> another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
> logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
> smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
> imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
> words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
"lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
> You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
> maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
> truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
> provide them to you.
>
I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
"fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
> First Deb (or whoever)...screw off. I don't have to provide you with
> zip. You say you work at a campus, you're a student. Allow me to introudce
> you to the concept of "research." This isn't top secret classified
> material; this is the most easily accessible information on the planet.
> Every week DAILY VARIETY and the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER list ratings for the
> syndicated and network shows (and yes, they ARE considered two separate
> things, as anyone who bothered to do the LEAST amount of digging into the
> question instead of relying on the person they're smearing and badrapping
> to provide it for them because they ask for it, like it's some kind of
> holy obligation).
>You wanna know the ratings? Come our next batch of
> new episodes, why don't you just drag your smarmy, accusatory, "you know
> you really can't trust him, he's a producer, oh, we won't call him a liar,
> but we'll just whisper it" ass down to the campus library and LOOK IT UP.
Thank you sir for providing me with that information which you could have
easily stated way back when this whole thing started. I am familar with the
theater publications, not the Hollywood TV ones and I will go look it up
myself provided it is in the library. JMU does not have the reputation of
having the greatest literary resources around. But I'm sure a prof. in the TV
Media department would have a copy or know where I could get one.
> "...one producer who goes only by his initials...."
>
> Excuse me, but what the hell does THAT bit of smear-tactic mean when
> my name is right on top of every single damned message I post? Do you mean
> that after all this time you -- gasp! -- don't know WHO I AM? You mean you
> see "only" some initials on the bottom of a message and you're so confused
> by who this might be that you've fallen down the dark, dusty staircase you
> call your cerebullum and now can't get up? Good heavens, I've had an
> alias all this time and I haven't known it! I'm a stealth producer! No
> one knows who I am, just those....INITIALS! Suddenly I feel like the
> Batman.
>
Smear tactic?!?!? How dare you even mention something like "smear tactic" when
you go around cussing out people for posting contrary opinions? Need I go back
and highlight the inflamatory, derogatory, sexist, vile names you have called
me in this post not to mention other posts? I might have been a bit
inflamatory but I did not call you any sort of name.
> In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
> here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
> here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
> be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
> for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
> overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
> be reposted here, because it always is.
>
Great!! Unfortunately I do not have access to CompuServ. Could you post them
here as well or at least mention that it is posted somewhere instead of
spouting off the same rhetoric?
> You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
> notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
> as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
> isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
> something's WRONG, isn't it?
No sir, you have this idea that it is totally unthinkable for anyone to
contradict you or your show. That your person is sacred and should never have
anything bad said about it. On the flip side, you take every liberty to
insult, smear, debase, degrade, denigrate, and in other words flame the hell
out of anyone you consider to be a thorn in your side. Mr. Stracynski, for
someone who has a degree in Psychology and has done counseling, you have piss
poor interpersonal skills, do pardon my French and I'll leave it at that.
> Re: my veracity, you say, "I'd be wary and seek a second opinion or
> read very carefully to see what info isn't being said."
>
> And because something isn't being said, you thererfore assume that
> something's wrong, being held back. And what precise second opinion did
> you have in mind? Perhaps the PUBLISHED TRADES I commended to you a
> moment ago?
Okay, so it is alright to say something like "Maybe there is another side to
what Clinton is saying," but it is not alright to say it about the
Entertainment industry? Please, press-releases and offical statments are
certainly not the whole truth. And maybe my 5th grade teacher was wrong but
she said that news articles are always written with some sort of bias and one
needs more than one source on any issue to really get the full story. You seem
to think that your word is as infallible as the Pope speaking "Ex Cathedra."
>
> Enough. Enough of you, and your father/alter ego; enough of your
> smears, and your oh-so-carefully-phrased-not-to-use-bad-words, let's jsut
> call him a liar *quietly*, and your lurking on the back fence as we have
> a decent conversation, adding nothing but a murmuring, soft voice that
> mewls "don't trust him, don't trust him"...at whom somebody ought to toss
> an old shoe.
>
Well, lets just say we'll stop it if you will. :)
> I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
> yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
> said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
> homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
> pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
> poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
> place.
Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
flame free or friendly homey. IF it isn't me or my father its going to be
someone else. And once again, calling people names isn't fostering the
friendly atmosphere you claim this newsgroup has.
>
> Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
>
> jms
And what about you JMS? Do you clean up your language and act as well? Or is
it beyond someone of your status? You can play outside of the rules and demand
that people not insult you while you hurl every sort of tort at them?
Besides, my middle-school students can think up of better insults than you can.
:)
Smiles,
Deb
DEBORAH R FULLER
> Not to mention the fact that even if you did post complete, detailed, and up
> to the second numbers, they'd maintain that since you're a producer (read "not
> to be trusted") you'd just made up the numbers to prove your point... :-)
I like people who speak for me. It saves me oh so much trouble. ;)
No, I'd probably say "Thank you very much for telling me this or where I
could find it."
Afterall, if the ratings are so good then he has nothing to loose by revealing
where they would be located or posting them here?
Deb
jere7my tho?rpe
FULLER) wrote:
*I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
*"fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
*one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
The ratings are posted fairly regularly--I see them about every other
month. And he flames people who constantly attack his integrity, claiming
he is a liar just because he produces a TV show. (How do you feel when
people flame you just for being the daughter of Theron?)
I'd be happier if JMS didn't flame--I'm a Quaker, and we aren't real
fond of angry conflict. But I understand his feelings. I don't
understand someone who posts antagonistic, personal attacks without
provocation.
----j7y
**************************** <*> ****************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Last time to make plans!
Physicist and Artist Guy Well I'm a tumbler;
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu I'm a government man."
(610) 690-4428 ----Talking Heads
jere7my tho?rpe
*And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
*them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
*preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
*because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
*jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
*controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
*"lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
It may be difficult to bring a libel suit against JMS, since you have
(previously in this thread) expressed the belief that it isn't really him
posting "his" messages.
jere7my tho?rpe
FULLER) wrote:
*Afterall, if the ratings are so good then he has nothing to loose by revealing
*where they would be located or posting them here?
Actually, they do get posted. Fairly often--say every couple of
months. At any rate, JMS has already told you where to find the
ratings--published by _two_ objective third parties--and you are welcome
to go look them up.
Rob Furr
Um, Deb, old sock, he _has_ revealed where they would be located. And,
astonishingly enough, _ARE_ located. (I'll give you a hint: The trades.)
It's kind of hard to base a conspiracy theory on "He's CONCEALING
SOMETHING! Yes, he MUST be concealing something because the only place to
find the numbers is a PUBLICATION with a circulation of ONLY a HUNDRED
THOUSAND" (so, okay, I don't really know how large Variety's circulation
is, but the point stands.)
(and, really, Debbie, I would have expected better from you. Me and Frank
go away and everything goes to pot. Sigh.)
Rob (Yes, _THAT_ Rob, Debbie,) F.
--
Rob Furr - http://www.groucho.com/
Rob Furr
jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe) wrote:
> I'd be happier if JMS didn't flame--I'm a Quaker, and we aren't real
> fond of angry conflict. But I understand his feelings. I don't
> understand someone who posts antagonistic, personal attacks without
> provocation.
Well, as much as we both hate thebasic fact of Joe having to flame, ya
gotta admit, you can't beat them for entertainment value. I used to
consider myself a dab hand at the gentle art of the flame - not one of the
all-time-greats, but decent enough for government work - until I
encountered Joe's long, involved, precise flames. Damn, they're
impressive.
Plus, pretty much the only time he ever posts _anything_ at length is when
he's flaming; we get multiple paragraphs as opposed to those incredibly
annoying Veiled Hints that he seems to have patented.
DEBORAH R FULLER
> In article <3k21h8$s...@doc.jmu.edu>, FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (DEBORAH R
> FULLER) wrote:
>
> *And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
> *them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
> *preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
> *because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
> *jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
> *controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
> *"lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
>
> It may be difficult to bring a libel suit against JMS, since you have
> (previously in this thread) expressed the belief that it isn't really him
> posting "his" messages.
>
> ----j7y
Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the execs
at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
Even it is isn't JMS, it still has his name attached to it which makes him
ultimately responsible for it unless someone hacked into his account which he
should be equally concerned about.
Deb
jere7my tho?rpe
FULLER) wrote:
*Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the execs
*at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
JMS is not a WB net rep. He does this in his own free time, and, if
anything, is a Babylonian Productions net rep.
DEBORAH R FULLER
I know that dear. He managed to point that out in a rather neanderthal flame
about me. I haven't read the newsgroups in a while and every message I had
seen on the subject since then didn't mention anything about where to get the
ratings. I am in the process of looking them up as we speak. Hell, I remember
back last year when the whole Michael O'Hare thing started there was no mention
of the actual ratings or where to find them which would have been a rather
appropriate place and time to mention where they were found or post them
outright.
Oh and I called Channel 20 in DC and they said that they have to pay for that
info themselves and they would get back to me. Whoever said that stations
love to give out that kind of info was wrong.
No Rob, things aren't going to pot here but it looks like they are in other
places. :)
Smiles,
Deb
Allen J. Newton
> And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
> them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
> preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
> because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
> jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
> controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
> "lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
Hey, fans! Check this out, a veiled THREAT!
Debbie, a clue: If push came to shove, I think that there are PLENTY of
people willing to testify on Joe's behalf that both you and your father
have slandered JMS by calling him a liar, in public, in front of thousands
of readers. Count me among them.
However, everything JMS has said about you and your dad, you and your dad
verify with every single post. Please keep in mind that there are those
among us who archive every single post.
> > You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
> > maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
> > truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
> > provide them to you.
>
> I haven't demanded anything [ ... ]
Yes, you have. Repeatedly. And you did it again:
> [ ... ] you are the
> one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
> [JMS wrote]:
> > [in response to Debbie]
> > "...one producer who goes only by his initials...."
> > Excuse me, but what the hell does THAT bit of smear-tactic mean when
> > my name is right on top of every single damned message I post? Do you mean
> > that after all this time you -- gasp! -- don't know WHO I AM? You mean you
> > see "only" some initials on the bottom of a message and you're so confused
> > by who this might be that you've fallen down the dark, dusty staircase you
> > call your cerebullum and now can't get up? Good heavens, I've had an
> > alias all this time and I haven't known it! I'm a stealth producer! No
> > one knows who I am, just those....INITIALS! Suddenly I feel like the
> > Batman.
>
> Smear tactic?!?!? How dare you
Oh, here we go, folks...
>even mention something like "smear tactic" when
> you go around cussing out people for posting contrary opinions? Need I go back
> and highlight the inflamatory, derogatory, sexist, vile names you have called
> me in this post not to mention other posts? I might have been a bit
> inflamatory but I did not call you any sort of name.
You and your dad accused JMS, several times, of misrepresenting facts...in
short, calling him a liar. Yes, you did, you can't deny it now. We, the
readers, have witnessed it.
> > In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
> > here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
> > here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
> > be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
> > for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
> > overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
> > be reposted here, because it always is.
>
> Great!! Unfortunately I do not have access to CompuServ.
Sounds like a personal problem, to me. If that's what you want, go out and
BUY one and quit griping about it...
>Could you post them
> here as well or at least mention that it is posted somewhere instead of
> spouting off the same rhetoric?
Someone will, eventually, I'm sure. Have patience.
> > You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
> > notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
> > as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
> > isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
> > something's WRONG, isn't it?
>
> No sir, you have this idea that it is totally unthinkable for anyone to
> contradict you or your show. That your person is sacred and should never have
> anything bad said about it.
You have a truly small mind if this is how you see it. JMS has been cussed
out, flamed and disagreed with about several things. YOU and your dad
publicly asserted that JMS is a liar. Somehow, I have no trouble seeing
what about that upsets him.
> Mr. Stracynski, for
> someone who has a degree in Psychology
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That explains a lot...
> and has done counseling,
Sounds like you NEED some counseling...
> you have piss
> poor interpersonal skills, do pardon my French and I'll leave it at that.
Somehow, I don't believe you. I'm only 65% of the way through this
response AFTER snipping...
> > Enough. Enough of you, and your father/alter ego; enough of your
> > smears, and your oh-so-carefully-phrased-not-to-use-bad-words, let's jsut
> > call him a liar *quietly*, and your lurking on the back fence as we have
> > a decent conversation, adding nothing but a murmuring, soft voice that
> > mewls "don't trust him, don't trust him"...at whom somebody ought to toss
> > an old shoe.
> Well, lets just say we'll stop it if you will. :)
Debbie, let me inject some reality here. JMS has one status that you and
your father don't: He was _invited_ here (back when it was
alt.tv.babylon-5). You weren't. You two just blew in here throwing about
accusations about falsehoods JMS was allegedly guilty of, and your dad
especially has been a major pain in the butt to everyone here. I killfiled
him, and you're probably next, I'm afraid.
> > I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
> > yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
> > said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
> > homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
> > pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
> > poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
> > place.
>
> Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
> suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
> flame free or friendly homey.
No place you've ever been to, anyway. See the connection?
I doubt it...
> > Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
> > jms
>
> And what about you JMS? Do you clean up your language and act as well? Or is
> it beyond someone of your status? You can play outside of the rules and demand
> that people not insult you while you hurl every sort of tort at them?
He doesn't like being called a liar. You and your dad have done that.
Quit doing that, and I'm sure JMS will quit flaming you. And so will
everyone else who's become sick of you.
> Besides, my middle-school students can think up of better insults than you can.
Did you say something? Sounded pretty lame, I wasn't really sure you did.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen J. Newton |
ane...@alturia.abq.nm.us |
Allen J. Newton
> n <chanlon.7...@vaxxine.com> cha...@vaxxine.com writes:
> > Not to mention the fact that even if you did post complete, detailed, and up
> > to the second numbers, they'd maintain that since you're a producer (read "not
> > to be trusted") you'd just made up the numbers to prove your point... :-)
>
> I like people who speak for me. It saves me oh so much trouble. ;)
Really? Okay, I'll give it a shot...
Deborah says, "Duh! I'm a ditzy little bitch with nothing better to do
with her time than find prominent people to call liars and piss them and
everybody else off! Tee hee! Duh!"
How'd I do?
> No, I'd probably say "Thank you very much for telling me this or where I
> could find it."
>
> Afterall, if the ratings are so good then he has nothing to loose by revealing
> where they would be located or posting them here?
Now that you mention it, JMS DID post where you could find those, and you
acknowledged it. Have you looked them up, yet?
What did you find out?
Dianne Hackborn
| I know that dear. He managed to point that out in a rather neanderthal flame
| about me.
No, it was a rather impressive flame directed straight -at- you. At least
JMS is honest enough to directly say what he thinks, rather than your vapid
attempts to suggest that "he just might be a liar and not really who he
says he is, but no I wouldn't -say- that, but it's possible, and I'm sure
everyone else would see this if they had put as much thought into the
subject as I have."
And -you- have the audacity to accuse all TeeVee producers of being slimey,
slippery politicians at heart!
| I haven't read the newsgroups in a while and every message I had
| seen on the subject since then didn't mention anything about where to get the
| ratings.
Have a clue: Articles usually exist on a newserver for only a week or two,
and at best a month. Do you think JMS should have to post weekly updates
on the ratings, just to satisfy you and your father's whining about what a
liar he is? Do you really think anyone believes that, if he did such a
thing, it would stop the low-life attacks coming from you two?
| I am in the process of looking them up as we speak. Hell, I remember
| back last year when the whole Michael O'Hare thing started there was no mention
| of the actual ratings or where to find them which would have been a rather
| appropriate place and time to mention where they were found or post them
| outright.
And here, have some commas, too: ,,,,,
| No Rob, things aren't going to pot here but it looks like they are in other
| places. :)
Has anyone mentioned to you that sticking idiotic smileys in a flame makes
you look like a fool? It certainly isn't going to encourage anyone to look
at your drivel in any more of a positive light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Ugly is bad, and bad is wrong, and wrong is
hac...@mail.cs.orst.edu sinful, and sin leads to ETERNAL DAMNATION!"
Oregon State University -- Frank Zappa
//www.cs.orst.edu/~hackbod/
Jillraci
: Deb
Well, at least you now seem to be convinced he's the real jms.
Could you have been looking for, I don't know, a little individual
*attention* ?
The real Jill
Allen J. Newton
> In <jthorpe1-130...@mac06.duponta1.swarthmore.edu> jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu writes:
> > In article <3k21h8$s...@doc.jmu.edu>, FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (DEBORAH R
> > FULLER) wrote:
> >
> > *And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
> > *them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
> > *preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
> > *because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
> > *jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
> > *controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
> > *"lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
> >
> > It may be difficult to bring a libel suit against JMS, since you have
> > (previously in this thread) expressed the belief that it isn't really him
> > posting "his" messages.
> >
> > ----j7y
>
> Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the execs
> at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
Oh, now her threat has finally manifested itself to specifics.
If your slanderous accusations of JMS to WB execs were to hurt him career-wise
or financially (which I sincerely doubt, really), then he'd have excellent
grounds for suing you and your dad for libel against _you_.
Consider carefully what you plan to do. You have a large number of witnesses
who'll testify against you.
DEBORAH R FULLER
> Hark! The herald FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (DEBORAH R FULLER) posts:
> | I know that dear. He managed to point that out in a rather neanderthal flame
> | about me.
>
> No, it was a rather impressive flame directed straight -at- you. At least
> JMS is honest enough to directly say what he thinks, rather than your vapid
> attempts to suggest that "he just might be a liar and not really who he
> says he is, but no I wouldn't -say- that, but it's possible, and I'm sure
> everyone else would see this if they had put as much thought into the
> subject as I have."
It doesn't take much intellgence or tact to tell someone to "screw off."
Hell, people have shown on here that you don't have to write for TV to be able
to post that.
"He might be a liar" is a hell of a lot different than "There might be
another side of the story to all of this." Like I said before, do you take
everything verbatim?
>
> And -you- have the audacity to accuse all TeeVee producers of being slimey,
> slippery politicians at heart!
>
Please, where did I post that? Exact words now. I think I am verbose enough.
I don't need other people putting words into my mouth.
> Have a clue: Articles usually exist on a newserver for only a week or two,
> and at best a month. Do you think JMS should have to post weekly updates
> on the ratings, just to satisfy you and your father's whining about what a
> liar he is? Do you really think anyone believes that, if he did such a
> thing, it would stop the low-life attacks coming from you two?
A polite "here is where you can find them" is a lot better than "You fucking
dork!!! I just posted them. What, you mean you actually have a life and don't
read the newsgroup for 4 hours a day to keep up with all the posts?"
> | No Rob, things aren't going to pot here but it looks like they are in other
> | places. :)
>
> Has anyone mentioned to you that sticking idiotic smileys in a flame makes
> you look like a fool? It certainly isn't going to encourage anyone to look
> at your drivel in any more of a positive light.
>
Dear, I happen to know Rob Furr personally and the smiley signifies a good
natured sarcastic remark. This post was in no way a flame unless mentioning an
opposing opinion these days counts as a flame.
In otherwords, that last remark was directed at Rob who will understand it and
was none of your business.
Smiles!
deb
Christian Mogensen
DEBORAH R FULLER <FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu> wrote:
>Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the execs
>at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
>
>Even it is isn't JMS, it still has his name attached to it which makes him
>ultimately responsible for it unless someone hacked into his account which he
>should be equally concerned about.
Deb,
please tell me the name and address of your superiors so I may
contact them and warn them of the possibility that your account has
been hacked. Someone has been posting drivel while claiming to be
you, and hence it really is your responsibilty to make sure this
doesn't happen.
Christian "just another LISP program postingt to the Net"
Aaron Bergman
This is really getting ridiculous. REALLY ridiculous.
: > Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
: > another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
: > logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
: > smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
: > imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
: > words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
: And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
: them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
: preach Joe.
Take a peek at that post. In my entire time here, I've seen JMS post maybe
2 flames. Flames are fine. I could call you a stupid idiotic SOB.
That's a flame. (I'm not calling you that, BTW. I'm not even implying it.)
Libel is saying that someone is lying and attacking their reputation.
: To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
: because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
: jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
: controversial work.
Is JMS a public figure? I'd guess so as he posts here on the 'net.
: They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
: "lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
They're not?!?!? Where on earth did you read that? Public figures can
do the same stuff anyone else does. They just might not have the same
privacy.
: > You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
: > maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
: > truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
: > provide them to you.
: I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
: "fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
: one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
People have posted ratings.
: > First Deb (or whoever)...screw off. I don't have to provide you with
Please do. I just reread your quoted material and I didn't see sny
name-calling except for "smarmy accusatory ass". If you call that
name-calling,m then you haven't been on Usenet all that long.
: > In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
: > here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
: > here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
: > be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
: > for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
: > overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
: > be reposted here, because it always is.
: Great!! Unfortunately I do not have access to CompuServ. Could you post them
: here as well or at least mention that it is posted somewhere instead of
: spouting off the same rhetoric?
: > You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
: > notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
: > as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
: > isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
: > something's WRONG, isn't it?
: No sir, you have this idea that it is totally unthinkable for anyone to
: contradict you or your show. That your person is sacred and should never have
: anything bad said about it. On the flip side, you take every liberty to
: insult, smear, debase, degrade, denigrate, and in other words flame the hell
: out of anyone you consider to be a thorn in your side. Mr. Stracynski, for
: someone who has a degree in Psychology and has done counseling, you have piss
: poor interpersonal skills, do pardon my French and I'll leave it at that.
You see, there's this wonderful thing known as "tone". You can come here
and criticize the show as long as you can back up your critiques. I
certainly won't flame anyone for having a different opinion. I know
Ted McCoy (to pull the first name that comes to mind out of the air)
has said some less than complimentary things about certain episodes and I
haven't seen JMS flame him. Now, if you start posting messages accusing
Joe of firing Michael O'Hare, and lying about the ratings, then that's
more than a tad different. In both, you're accusing him of lying in public.
That's a serious accusation. So, if you make it, you better have some
hard evidence to quote that people can go out an verify himself. JMS
has mentioned places where you can verify his information. I haven't
seen your father post anyway to verify his information. In addition,
Michael O'Hare has told people at conventions that he is very hurt about
some of the things said on the 'net. I mean, come on, can't some things
just be put to rest?
:
: > Re: my veracity, you say, "I'd be wary and seek a second opinion or
: > read very carefully to see what info isn't being said."
: >
: > And because something isn't being said, you thererfore assume that
: > something's wrong, being held back. And what precise second opinion did
: > you have in mind? Perhaps the PUBLISHED TRADES I commended to you a
: > moment ago?
: Okay, so it is alright to say something like "Maybe there is another side to
: what Clinton is saying," but it is not alright to say it about the
: Entertainment industry? Please, press-releases and offical statments are
: certainly not the whole truth. And maybe my 5th grade teacher was wrong but
: she said that news articles are always written with some sort of bias and one
:needs more than one source on any issue to really get the full story. You seem
: to think that your word is as infallible as the Pope speaking "Ex Cathedra."
The trades, AFAIK, probably post the Nielson ratings which is what
the ad people use, so....(I could be wrong on this part, though.)
: > Enough. Enough of you, and your father/alter ego; enough of your
: > smears, and your oh-so-carefully-phrased-not-to-use-bad-words, let's jsut
: > call him a liar *quietly*, and your lurking on the back fence as we have
: > a decent conversation, adding nothing but a murmuring, soft voice that
: > mewls "don't trust him, don't trust him"...at whom somebody ought to toss
: > an old shoe.
: >
: Well, lets just say we'll stop it if you will. :)
Fine. Stop.
Don't post another message on the subject of ratings, or Michael O'Hare.
Instead, let's talk about Whether Kosh is really just a probe of his
ship or something like that.
: > I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
: > yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
: > said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
: > homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
: > pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
: > poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
: > place.
: Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
: suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
: flame free or friendly homey. IF it isn't me or my father its going to be
: someone else. And once again, calling people names isn't fostering the
: friendly atmosphere you claim this newsgroup has.
Some groups are nicer than others. It's all relative.
: > Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
: >
: > jms
: And what about you JMS? Do you clean up your language and act as well? Or is
:it beyond someone of your status? You can play outside of the rules and demand
: that people not insult you while you hurl every sort of tort at them?
:Besides, my middle-school students can think up of better insults than you can.
As I said, if you call those insults, then you haven't been on Usenet that
long.
Aaron
Christine Raasch
:
: Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the
: execs at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
Translation: "I'm telling! I'm telling!"
How very sad. Surely a "demonstration of how efforts to puff
yourself up may sometimes reveal your true size." (RE Cytowic)
I can't believe any mature person could get this hysterical over
JMS's hard-nosed but reasonable response (considering the provocation)
Checking back in this thread, I see references to you being a grad
student, and having middle-school students...but Deb, honestly, you're
coming off sounding like a bratty 10-year-old. Actually, on reflection,
my 8-year-old niece would probably produce a much more reasoned response.
The famous "mindfucker" epithet - which you Fullers trot out and
bemoan in almost every post - may be a bit harsh for some tastes,
but it was and is a dead-on accurate description of your father's
(and now, apparently, your) favorite tactic...messin' with everyone's
heads by misrepresenting the facts, smugly implying deception while
sounding like he's in it for everyone's best interests, etc., etc.
When I first saw that word many moons ago (when Theron came in on the
side of our old pal BuFordaT), I thought, "Eureka! JMS has captured
the very ESSENCE of the man!" Long-time posters and mostly-lurkers like
me are on to it, but it still snares a newbie occasionally, unfortunately.
And so it continues, 'til everyone killfiles you, I guess. <shrug>
- CRaasch
--
Christine C. Raasch <*> Neuromusculotendinoskeletal Biomechanist/PhuD-to-be
Young's Research Law: All great discoveries are made by mistake.
Corollary: The greater the funding, the longer it takes to make the mistake.
Allen J. Newton
> [snip]
> I don't need other people putting words into my mouth.
But in article <3k22dp$t...@doc.jmu.edu> yesterday (which, strangely enough, is
still in the References: section of this very thread, just TWO responses
ago), she wrote:
: I like people who speak for me. It saves me oh so much trouble.
Yessir, folks, what we have here could be referred to as a genuine case of
multiple personality disorder.
Or perhaps she's simply so stupid, she just doesn't know WHAT she wants...
Jonathan Blum
>at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
J. Michael Straczynski isn't posting here as a Warner net_rep -- as has
already been discussed, he posts in his own free time, of his own free will,
from his own account. His posts represent Warner Brothers even less than
yours represent James Madison University.
If he represents any organization here, it's Babylonian Productions,
and you can feel free to complain to the head man there if you want...
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
Preston F. Crow
> Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
>another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
>logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
>smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
>imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
>words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
[...]
> Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
>
> jms
Time to add another person to our killfiles. Responding to flames
only encourages them. Now if only more of the online services
provided newsreaders with decent capabilities...
--PC
--
=============================================================================
= kill files for responsible posting: =
= :!s:PLEASE READ :!s:READ THIS =
=============================================================================
Mikey
FULLER) wrote:
[her usual inexplicably smug drivel]
Just a guess....
You and Daddy work for the United Paramount Network, don't you?
hugs,
--
///mjh///
Net God & Swell Guy
Theron Fuller
writes:
It's put up or shut up time. You accuse me of stating the same points
over and over. And then you echo the same old tired theme that's been
trotted out every time JMS flames me. That I deserve being flamed
because I insinuate things, I use misinformation, I use snide innuendos,
etc., etc.
You, like several other people beat this dead horse as much as any dead
horse you accuse me of beating.
Show some proof. Not indirect quotes, but some direct quots from my
posts giving examples of my tactics.
And you, like some others, have a curious double standard. When JMS
does the things you accuse me of, he's being "hardnosed, but justified."
The famous "mindfucker" incident is excellent proof of this. JMS
mistakenly attributed quotes and actions to me that were actually said
and done by a couple of other net posters. He then proceeds to use some
very abusive language to flame me.
When I pointed out his mistake in a very pointed, but polite way, he
doesn't even have the courtesy, much less the style and grace, to
even acknowled, much less apologize for his mistake.
My real major sin in this incident was actually coming out and saying
what many reasonable people were thinking--that there was more to
O'Hare's leaving than JMS was saying in his cryptic posts. So JMS lumps
me in with the other people he doesn't like and just arrogantly treats
me like them. And his true believers don't bother to even think for
themselves. JMS said it, so it must be true. JMS said Fuller was a
"mindfucker" so I can call him a "Fuck Face" and send him E-mail
threatening him, and be as abusive as I want to, because I'm on the
right side.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Douglas Thomas Adamson
|>In <jthorpe1-130...@mac06.duponta1.swarthmore.edu> jtho...@cc.swarthmore.edu writes:
<Tons of bollocks delete>
|>
|>> In article <3k21h8$s...@doc.jmu.edu>, FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (DEBORAH R
|>> FULLER) wrote:
|>>
|>> *And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
|>> *them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
|>> *preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
|>> *because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
|>> *jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
|>> *controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
|>> *"lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
Obviously calling someone a liar and or fraud isn't libel ? (I hope my
British sarcasim works here on Americans often it doesn't for some reason)
|>>
|>> It may be difficult to bring a libel suit against JMS, since you have
|>> (previously in this thread) expressed the belief that it isn't really him
|>> posting "his" messages.
|>>
|>> ----j7y
|>
|>Oh I'm not going to bring a libel suit up against him but I will let the execs
|>at WBs know what their net_rep is doing for them.
Other than leaving him open to stupid flames and e-mails ? Hell be thankful
JMS is on here. He doesn't need to be. Stuff like this is going to force
him off. And then were will we be ? I'll tell you, hanging in the wind,
no-one on the inside telling us info, no-one willing to answers AT ALL, no
input what so ever. Personally I think that by going on the Net, JMS is taking
a Huge risk to satisfy his fans, and what does he get out of it ? Not much,
just stupid comments and vindicitive posts with the hasel attached to them.
All it takes to destroy 100 messages of good will is one stupid mindless post.
All in all we have a good deal, and remember JMS doesn't work for WBs he works
for US. With out JMS on here Babylon 5 wouldn't have the status it does now.
|>Even it is isn't JMS, it still has his name attached to it which makes him
|>ultimately responsible for it unless someone hacked into his account which he
|>should be equally concerned about.
|>Deb
|>
A few words of advice.
If you like Babylon 5 sit down and Shut up. Watch, listen and enjoy.
If you don't like JMS or Babylon 5 Switch off. That's all the power you need.
JMS if you read this trust me for everyone of the these stupid people there's
a thousand out there supporting you.
Douglas T. Adamson
:- In the process of becoming someone they base a two
part episode of 'The X-Files' on.
:- Believe it.
John Pietrzak
Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>It's put up or shut up time. You accuse me of stating the same points
>over and over.
>
>Show some proof.
Ok, how's this (from the very same posting):
> The famous "mindfucker" incident is excellent proof of this. JMS
>mistakenly attributed quotes and actions to me that were actually said
>and done by a couple of other net posters. He then proceeds to use some
>very abusive language to flame me.
You seem to have talked about this quite a lot recently.
John
Brett Jaffee
> And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
> them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
When someone is essentially calling you an outright liat, I'd say it's all
right.
> controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
> "lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
Producers have no obligation to be sitting targets.
> Thank you sir for providing me with that information which you could have
> easily stated way back when this whole thing started. I am familar with the
You're blamming JMS for your ignorance?
> Smear tactic?!?!? How dare you even mention something like "smear tactic" when
> you go around cussing out people for posting contrary opinions? Need I go back
I've seen plenty of contrary opinions in this newsgroup. There is a a
difference between offering a contrary opinion and telling someone that
they are a liar.
> No sir, you have this idea that it is totally unthinkable for anyone to
> contradict you or your show. That your person is sacred and should never have
> anything bad said about it. On the flip side, you take every liberty to
Nothing bad ever said about the show. You don't read here often, do you?
> Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
> suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
> flame free or friendly homey. IF it isn't me or my father its going to be
> someone else. And once again, calling people names isn't fostering the
> friendly atmosphere you claim this newsgroup has.
If JMS responded to every flame on this group, he'd never have time to do
anything else. You, my friends, are a special case. I suspect that both
of you (or at least Theron) like it that way.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brett Jaffee
hbac...@huey.csun.edu
on GEnie b.ja...@genie.geis.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
Robert J. Granvin
|> *I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
|> *"fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
|> *one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
|>
|> The ratings are posted fairly regularly--I see them about every other
|> month. And he flames people who constantly attack his integrity, claiming
|> he is a liar just because he produces a TV show. (How do you feel when
|> people flame you just for being the daughter of Theron?)
Hmmm....
I've seen ratings numbers posted before. I've seen them verified against
published figures. I've corresponded privately with JMS by both email and
US Mail. I have personal correspondence from John Copeland (Producer) on
Babylonian Productions letterhead as well as others from within in regards
to a short paper-based correspondence. I was sent a crew hat by Mr. Copeland
last year in response to an item which was requested of me and forwarded to
him.
If these people are fakes, they are doing a damn good job of creating one of
the most elaborate, largest and substantial practical jokes that no one will
ever know about or appreciate. Why set up such an expensive and elaborate
facade to convince me, and me alone, that this JMS guy is not an imposter?
Meanwhile, the information that has been sent publicly as well as privately,
regarding B5, Murder She Wrote, The Real Ghostbusters and The New Twilight
Zone, just to name a few, shows an incredible knowledge base of the facts
and the past. Plus, the insights and hints into the future (horror of
horrors) seem to pan out right on schedule and directly in accordance with
what is suggested and hinted.
Obsessed _and_ clairvoyant? Not to mention establishing an entire false
front just in case someone goes by way of U.S. Mail?
Pretty damn elaborate, if you ask me.
One for the record books.
--
\\ Robert J. Granvin User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota r...@stat.umn.edu
\\ Robert J. Granvin User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota r...@stat.umn.edu
Jonathan Blum
>over and over. And then you echo the same old tired theme that's been
>trotted out every time JMS flames me. That I deserve being flamed
>because I insinuate things, I use misinformation, I use snide innuendos,
>etc., etc.
>Show some proof. Not indirect quotes, but some direct quots from my
>posts giving examples of my tactics.
Theron, of course, makes this demand knowing that 95% of his posts have
gone to the Great Bit Bucket In The Sky, and that unless someone has
archived them somewhere, there is absolutely no evidence left of what he
has and hasn't said.
Our own personal memories are of course suspect, since we're all a gang
of true believers caught up in mob hysteria.
And even if someone were to dredge up a few posts, I'm sure Theron is
well prepared to pick apart his own carefully-worded, oh-so-diplomatic
prose until the words melt away in the air, showing that there's absolutely
nothing there on the screen which actually says the things which we all
heard.
It's a time-honored tactic, going all the way back to the Watergate tapes.
Except the gaps in these records are bigger than whatever fragments will
remain.
>My real major sin in this incident was actually coming out and saying
>what many reasonable people were thinking--that there was more to
>O'Hare's leaving than JMS was saying in his cryptic posts.
No, your real obnoxiousness -- I won't dignify it with the word "sin" --
was to keep repeating this theme over and over again, without bringing up
the slightest shred of direct evidence to support it. It's like those
callers on talk radio shows who keep making comments about Hillary Clinton
being a lesbian, despite the distinct lack of any ex-girlfriends coming
forward.
People have been asking you to put up or shut up on this subject for
months now. You still haven't. And now you have the nerve to tell everyone
else to do that?
I'll make you a counter-demand. You want people to have to realize that
you're not saying what they claim you're saying? Then say what you are
and aren't saying, flat out. Say that you know that B5's ratings were
not falling, and that therefore declining ratings were not the cause of
the change of command.
I think that that'll satisfy a lot of people -- the ones who believe you
said that will think you've recanted. But of course, you don't have to
worry about the loss of face involved in recanting, because you never
actually said this, right?
While you're at it, you can also say flat-out that you still believe that
JMS, Michael O'Hare, Larry DiTillio, and the other parties involved are all
deliberately keeping the true reasons for O'Hare's departure, whatever they
are, from us. Saying this unequivocally could actually help the net.rep
you're so worried about protecting -- people won't be able to accuse you
of being a weasel if you don't leave yourself any weasel-room in your
statements.
Nathan Mates
>> Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
>> another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
>> logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
>> smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
>> imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
>> words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
>And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers"
>and tell them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say?
Your father has *repeatedly* called JMS a liar on this newsgroup,
posts bogus information, and never backs it up with a shred of evidence.
And you think that should be ok? YOUR FATHER STARTED IT. Think what you
like of that thing that couldn't pull out in time, but he was the one
that has copiously announced such crap on this newsgroup.
It is perfectly all right for anyone in a civilized world to return
insults at someone who unfairly, unjustly, and undeservedly slanders
their good name around. If your family has some long-standing bones in
the closet with the Straczynski family, let's hear it. Why the heck
are you persisting in this crap? Why the lies, the insults? Your
father started it on this newsgroup; it is not your job to return a
tit for a tat, it is to recognize that you are making mockeries of
yourself and your family, and you should give it up.
>I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
>"fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
>one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
What twisted logic, miss smarty pants. In other words, people must
prove any statements they say. APPLY THAT TO YOUR OWN FUCKING FAMILY!
Your father started many such pieces of crap about B5, and has NEVER
ONCE PROVEN A POINT. Proof is severly lacking in your own family, you
dumb airhead.
JMS does not need to prove every point he says. He's got a
reputation for accuracy in his statements here that is epsilon close
to 100%. He has earned the trust of everyone by telling the truth. He
even tells people how to double-check for themselves the facts. Would
you challenge those of out on usenet to prove you wrong if you
couldn't stand by your words? When one person looking up the facts
independently can verify his words, there's no margin for being wrong.
On the other had, your family shows up, and makes random
accusations, and _then_ challenges the other side to prove their
stuff? Uhnh. Doesn't work that way. You will need to earn respect the
hard way, just like JMS did. If you want to make accusations, YOU
PROVE THEM. Pinning down anyone in your family on any sort of proof is
parantly impossible, you seem to recognize that. But, asking the other
side for it, when they have a built-up reputation for the truth is
fucking stupid.
>> First Deb (or whoever)...screw off. I don't have to provide you with
>> zip. You say you work at a campus, you're a student. Allow me to introudce
>> you to the concept of "research." This isn't top secret classified
>> material; this is the most easily accessible information on the planet.
>> Every week DAILY VARIETY and the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER list ratings for the
>> syndicated and network shows (and yes, they ARE considered two separate
>> things, as anyone who bothered to do the LEAST amount of digging into the
>> question instead of relying on the person they're smearing and badrapping
>> to provide it for them because they ask for it, like it's some kind of
>> holy obligation).
>Thank you sir for providing me with that information which you could have
>easily stated way back when this whole thing started.
JMS has no obligation to do jack shit to some idiot on usenet. He's
here as a service, not a job or anything else. He's built up a
reputation for being right, and can stand by his words without having
to provide references or anything else. Is it his fault that you
didn't know beans about TV ratings, and where they're published? Is it
his obligation to bend over backwards for some shrill voice just
because you're a pain in the ass? No, he did the right thing by
putting you in your right place (get your family's egos out of
Washington and see the real world where people have to _work_ for a
living)
You have shown that you are a paranoid idiot who can't look things
up for herself, one who shows her ignorance of reality daily, and a
big mouth to help with that. Consider JMS's words a warning. Your
personality traits are atrocious, my dear, and changing them would
help you go much further in the world. Your accusatory, belligerent
style may make some people bend to your will, but you have met your
match, and been found sorely lacking. It will happen agan.
>Smear tactic?!?!? How dare you even mention something like "smear
>tactic" when you go around cussing out people for posting contrary
>opinions? Need I go back and highlight the inflamatory, derogatory,
>sexist, vile names you have called me in this post not to mention
>other posts? I might have been a bit inflamatory but I did not call
>you any sort of name.
(You also need to learn to hit return every 70 characters, not 79,
but I suppose the higher math and spacial skills are beyond you)
Contrary opinions are fine, it's the delivery method that got
cussed at. By being an obnoxious pest, you should get a good spanking
from your parents, not any sort of results. (Your personality of an
army brat on PCP reflects very poorly on your parents, but we already
knew that). Cussing people out in return for having them slander you
is fair play.
You may not have called JMS a word stronger than "Hollywood
Producer," but you sure deserved every insult you got back. You said
that producers (and therefore JMS) were not to be trusted, you've
tried to raise doubts about who he is, who he stands for, and
such. You've shown that you can try and insult people without strong
language. If you think that posting slander without cussing should get
you off the hook, you're dead wrong, as usual.
I could insult you just fine without ever using strong language,
but it's just much more efficient to use words that mean something,
rather than dancing around spouting nonsense. Your actions deserved
it. Your words mean things. You stuck your neck out, and have been
deservedly hit back. You say you're at college. You mean to say that
you've never heard these big nasty words from JMS before, so you had
to go pull out a dictionary and look up anything over 2 syllables? I
don't believe a fucking word you're saying. If you're this way in real
life, you've heard all these insults to your face lots of times
before. Running and crying is not the solution, changing that
abomination of a personality is.
If you think that one thousandth of what you've said doesn't
deserve it, how about trying to PROVE it? The burden of proof is on
the prosecution, and that's your puerile mind. If you want to
continually flaunt your ignorance about matters on this newsgroup, our
patience wears thin quickly, and you get insulted back. GET A CLUE!
>Great!! Unfortunately I do not have access to CompuServ. Could you post them
>here as well or at least mention that it is posted somewhere instead of
>spouting off the same rhetoric?
JMS is under no obligation to do jack shit to you. You are the one
who's continually tried to insinuate that he's a liar, and then try to
require that he do stuff to make you happy? Go get an account there
for yourself, or a subscription to the papers listed by JMS and do it
yourself.
You are the one with the same tired old rhetoric. You are the one
who cannot say anything other than lies, and never prove anything. JMS
merely needs to say "ratings keep going up," and that's the truth. It's
a fact, no rhetoric involved. Your own actions are that which you keep
complaining about, get a clue.
>anything bad said about it. On the flip side, you take every liberty to
>insult, smear, debase, degrade, denigrate, and in other words flame the hell
>out of anyone you consider to be a thorn in your side.
You left out three important words on the end of that sentence:
"with good reason." Thorns do not have to be tolerated, thorns do not
deserve to exist. As JMS, I, and lots of others have stated, your
family has shown itself to be bunch of lying psychopaths. Your
behavior should not be tolerated in good society. Your behavior
started it, you admit you're trying to be a thorn. If any of your
pompous utterances had a sliver of truth in them, you might have a
case.
>Mr. Stracynski, for
>someone who has a degree in Psychology and has done counseling, you have piss
>poor interpersonal skills, do pardon my French and I'll leave it at that.
May I make a suggestion and tell you to look into a mirror one day
this millenia? Sooner or later all this venom and lies you've got is
going to rise to the surface, and stay there permanently. You've
already got a huge black stain on your soul; if you don't realize it
before it reaches the surface, it'll scar you for the rest of your
life. I wouldn't want the term "Bitter old hag" to be applied to you
before you reach puberty, mentally. Your family's got a strange
aversion to the truth and logical proof, as well as a highly
belligerent attitude; it'll catch up to you one day.
>Entertainment industry? Please, press-releases and offical statments are
>certainly not the whole truth. And maybe my 5th grade teacher was wrong but
>she said that news articles are always written with some sort of bias and one
>needs more than one source on any issue to really get the full story.
Oh, so now you're stating that the published ratings couldn't be
trusted either? Paranoid little dweeb aren't you?
>You seem
>to think that your word is as infallible as the Pope speaking "Ex Cathedra."
Yes, but JMS has challenged you to a duel of the facts. JMS has
said that proof exists of his words. If you had a milimeter of
backbone in that body, you'd take that challenge up and check the
facts for yourself. JMS has no need to try and get other sources
(you'd probably accuse him of lying again) and put them here, it's up
to you.
JMS knows that he is right, and has the justifications to prove it.
He does not need to carry around any excess baggage with his
statements; he has shown himself (and it's up to you to die trying to
prove otherwise) to be a truthful and honorable man. When he's wrong
about things, such as science, we tell him. There are no shortage of
detractors of B5 with brains (your family obviously excluded) that can
and do call JMS on the carpet when there's a muckup, and they will
prove it.
As I've said lots of times about all of your family's accusations:
WE WANT PROOF.
OR, SHADDUP!
Never once has it been answered. Every time, more nonsense was
spewed forth. Either learn to read and understand what's placed in
front of you (At first, I thought 6 syllables should fit in your head,
but that's been proven wrong lots of time by your actions)
>Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
>suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
>flame free or friendly homey. IF it isn't me or my father its going to be
>someone else. And once again, calling people names isn't fostering the
>friendly atmosphere you claim this newsgroup has.
Yes, but since your family is the source of the flames, you're
getting your fair share of them. The net can be a nice place despite
loosers like your family. All of these flames are because of the
pathetic actions of your family; realize that, and shaddup. It's
_your_ fault that we have to flame you. We had a nice friendly
atmosphere before your family poked their smelly little fingers
around; flames are neither a constant nor to be taken for granted.
>> Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
>> jms
And so have I. I refuse to killfile such idiots as yourself. Each
and every time you spout nonsense, you will be bashed over the head
until you finally do gain a clue, get off the controlled substances,
or leave. Permanently.
Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~nathan/ <*>
# "When you hear the voice of heaven, go out and start running. No
# matter how far away, set on a journey to be sure. ... No matter
# how far away, I'll be there to meet you." -- Silent Moebius #1
tree...@io.org
> Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
>another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
>
>yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
>said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
>homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. >
>
> jms
You tell'em Writer-Boy! I really am glad that you hang around here, even with
bozo's like Theron wandering around. Babylon-5 is popular up here in the Great
White North. Toronto has it on CFTO TV (jumping time slots again...now Sunday at
5PM). Any chance you'll be heading up this way for a convention some time? I'd
actually go to one for once.
BTW how about them Blue Jays? (Mars Jays?)
Thomas E. Napier <tree...@io.org> User Hostile Computer Systems
Our Motto, "If In Doubt, RTFM!". Almost Happy OS/2 Warp 3.0 User
Cancelmoose(tm) Is My Hero!
Theron Fuller
Pietrzak) writes:
Damn straight I've talked about it quite a lot recently. JMS flames me
with all sorts of bogus quotes he attributes to me, and then the true
believers and attack chihuahuas take the hint and get even nastier.
And folks like you start beating your own dead horse about how I've said
this or that about B5 and JMS as though it was the absolute truth.
It's time to confront all you "Fuller experts" and ask you to back up
your assertions and flames and bites on the ankles with some real proof.
Not repeats of JMS quotes, or variations of old saws which the true
believers have nurtured and repeat every time JMS gets testy.
So, if you and others want to beat your dead horse, then, to quote one
true believer "We Want Proof."
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Eric Castle
FULLER) wrote:
<some stuff deleted>
>
>I haven't read the newsgroups in a while and every message I had
> seen on the subject since then didn't mention anything about where to get the
> ratings. I am in the process of looking them up as we speak. Hell, I
remember
> back last year when the whole Michael O'Hare thing started there was no
mention
> of the actual ratings or where to find them which would have been a rather
> appropriate place and time to mention where they were found or post them
> outright.
>
> Oh and I called Channel 20 in DC and they said that they have to pay for that
> info themselves and they would get back to me. Whoever said that stations
> love to give out that kind of info was wrong.
>
Deb, why do you (or your dad) *care* so much about what the ratings are
for the show? Who cares what the ratings are? All I care about is that the
show remain on the air. I know B5 has to have some decent ratings to stay
on the air (like most any show), but why can't you ever believe people
without seeing/reading it for yourself - are you that paranoid? Even if
JMS were intentionally lying, what purpose would it serve? There just no
reason to lie about it. Posting false reports of ratings wouldn't help out
the show since the real ratings would still be the ones used by the
networks/advertisers.
I feel sorry for you having to go through life not trusting anyone or anything.
--
Eric
eric_...@taligent.com
Eric Castle
(Theron Fuller) wrote:
>
> My real major sin in this incident was actually coming out and saying
> what many reasonable people were thinking--that there was more to
> O'Hare's leaving than JMS was saying in his cryptic posts. So JMS lumps
> me in with the other people he doesn't like and just arrogantly treats
> me like them. And his true believers don't bother to even think for
> themselves. JMS said it, so it must be true. JMS said Fuller was a
> "mindfucker" so I can call him a "Fuck Face" and send him E-mail
> threatening him, and be as abusive as I want to, because I'm on the
> right side.
>
> Regards,
> Theron Fuller
Why do you feel you need to know every little fact about why O'Hare left
the show? JMS doesn't have to tell you or us anything about the details of
this. Ever here of something called "privacy" or "none of your damn
business". Sheesh.
--
Eric
eric_...@taligent.com
Jack Kerouac
> I know that dear. He managed to point that out in a rather neanderthal flame
> about me. I haven't read the newsgroups in a while and every message I had
> seen on the subject since then didn't mention anything about where to get the
> ratings. I am in the process of looking them up as we speak. Hell, I remember
> back last year when the whole Michael O'Hare thing started there was no mention
> of the actual ratings or where to find them which would have been a rather
> appropriate place and time to mention where they were found or post them
> outright.
> Deb
You're not saying that it's JMS' responsibility to provide you with that sort
of information, are you? Shouldn't you do your own research before making
accusations?
JK
Ed Dravecky III
<SNIP!>
: JMS said Fuller was a "mindfucker" so I can call him a "Fuck Face"
: and send him E-mail threatening him, and be as abusive as I want
: to, because I'm on the right side.
I choose to believe the statements of Straczynski and O'Hare because
they are the ONLY ONES WHO WERE THERE when they discussed O'Hare
leaving (if only for a while). This is NOT some massive government
conspiracy to "cover up" the removal of an actor from a series.
There was no production assistant standing on the grassy knoll, okay?
You know, in my two years on the net (and 14 years online) I have
*never* put a person into my killfile. Even Ford contributes useful
information in other newsgroups. You, sir, are about to get plonked.
(I only wish that Joe's gateway had the same capabilities...)
--
Ed Dravecky III is: * In the event of an actual .sig file, the message you
dshe...@netcom.com * just read would have been followed by a witty saying
Robert Miller
Mark Russell <mrus...@icg.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>This "Deb Fuller" and "Theron" -- they're, like, a joke
>posting, right? No one is really that thick, it's just some
>B5 fan pretending to be an egocentric dolt, isn't it?
I don't know whether they are real or not, but since Theron is now
referring to those disagreeing with him as jms' "attack chihuahuas"
I've noticed that Theron is acting more and more like Ted Holden.
Those who don't know anything about Holden can check out talk.origins,
where he is one of the resident cranks. Suffice it to say, acting
like Ted Holden is not a good thing.
Theron Fuller
writes:
>
>The defense will show that Theron Fuller wrote:
><SNIP!>
>: JMS said Fuller was a "mindfucker" so I can call him a "Fuck Face"
>: and send him E-mail threatening him, and be as abusive as I want
>: to, because I'm on the right side.
>
>I choose to believe the statements of Straczynski and O'Hare because
>they are the ONLY ONES WHO WERE THERE when they discussed O'Hare
>leaving (if only for a while). This is NOT some massive government
>conspiracy to "cover up" the removal of an actor from a series.
No, it's a bunch of JMS's true believers beating their own particular
dead horse.
>
>There was no production assistant standing on the grassy knoll, okay?
And there are no Ford Thaxtons using the Fuller family Netcom account
and the Deb Fuller account at James Madison University, either.
>
>You know, in my two years on the net (and 14 years online) I have
>*never* put a person into my killfile. Even Ford contributes useful
>information in other newsgroups. You, sir, are about to get plonked.
>(I only wish that Joe's gateway had the same capabilities...)
>--
Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
flames?
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
writes:
And you true believers should check out whatever newsgroup it is that's
discussing the ins and outs of Scientology to see who you resemble.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Joseph Cochran
>has proved so many times, what would the point be?
Deb and Theron are real people. And they are not the same
person. They are father and daughter.
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK
Sam Gorton
perfectly logical suggestion, and I have yet to see you respond
at all to it.
Why don't you spend a few minutes and write out what it is that
you're saying? You say that JMS has been consistently misquoting
you and misrepresenting what you've been saying. Well, that's
possible; I know I've been ignoring you for a while, so I'm not
sure.
But what's wrong with just saying, "Okay, _this_, right here, is
what I am really saying about *blah*".
Where blah is why Michael O'Hare left, the press releases and further
statements by JMS and O'Hare, whether or not JMS is who he says he
is (a matter about which I have no personal doubt; it's almost worth
this to watch a professional writer flame. Almost.) or anything
else you want.
Then, we have a clear point at which actual debate can take place.
--Sam Gorton
(Not speaking for Lincoln Laboratory, JMS, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5,
my vcr, or Kosh McCloud)
--
Sam Gorton
Group 28, MIT Lincoln Lab
sgo...@ll.mit.edu
gl...@ov.com
> [truly marvelous flame job deleted to save bandwidth]
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JMS - please accept my sincere congratulations on an absolutely perfect
demonstration of the use of the English language as a weapon
(without using pure invective). Bravo!! Bravo!!
Consider yourself to have received a curtain call for a standing ovation.
Fletche...@ov.com (clapping, stomping, and whistling)
Greg Henderson
>
>Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
>kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
>flames?
It's a strange day when I find myself in complete agreement in with
the erumpent Mr. Fuller... :)
--
Greg Henderson The spaceship with its human cargo
Intergraph Corporation Speeds from star to blazing star.
Mailstop: NASA The captain, humming Handel's Largo,
Huntsville, AL 35894-0001 Wonders where the hell they are...
205-544-3852
Trey
> Theron Fuller sez...
> >
> >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
> >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
> >flames?
Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick and
dirty on kill files? Thanks.
Trey in RTP, NC
Matthew Murray
> In <199503130124...@relay1.geis.com> strac...@genie.geis.com writes:
>
> > Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
> > another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
> > logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
> > smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
> > imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
> > words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
>
> And it is alright for you too call people things like "Mind-fuckers" and tell
> them to "screw-off" when you don't like what they say? Practise what you
> preach Joe. To make a case of libel is a lot harder for you than it is for me
> because "Hollywood" types are supposed to be able to take a little extra
> jarring that comes with their extremely public and most of the times highly
> controversial work. They are also supposed to not stoop to the level of the
> "lowly" fans who hurl insults in their direction.
Why is that? Why should they be any different from anyone else?
Everyone has a breaking point, Deborah/Theron, and you/your father/both
of you (whoever!) has a habit of pushing almost everyone on this entire
newsgroup past that breaking point a lot of the time. There are a lot
worse responses than what you see from JMS. It may very much help to
remember that he is human and only can/will take so much. If you/your
father/whatever push him beyond that point he will, as will anyone,
respond appropriately. I don't blame him. I would do the same thing.
>
> > You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
> > maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
> > truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
> > provide them to you.
> >
>
> I haven't demanded anything but if you are going to say that the ratings are
> "fine," not produce them and then flame people when they disagree, you are the
> one who has to prove your point because you stated it in the first place.
He already told you where you could find the ratings you seek. He
has much more important things to do (like actually MAKING the show) than
to present the ratings for people like yourself/your father who are just
too darn lazy to look them up themselves.
>
> > First Deb (or whoever)...screw off. I don't have to provide you with
> > zip. You say you work at a campus, you're a student. Allow me to introudce
> > you to the concept of "research." This isn't top secret classified
> > material; this is the most easily accessible information on the planet.
> > Every week DAILY VARIETY and the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER list ratings for the
> > syndicated and network shows (and yes, they ARE considered two separate
> > things, as anyone who bothered to do the LEAST amount of digging into the
> > question instead of relying on the person they're smearing and badrapping
> > to provide it for them because they ask for it, like it's some kind of
> > holy obligation).
>
> >You wanna know the ratings? Come our next batch of
> > new episodes, why don't you just drag your smarmy, accusatory, "you know
> > you really can't trust him, he's a producer, oh, we won't call him a liar,
> > but we'll just whisper it" ass down to the campus library and LOOK IT UP.
>
> Thank you sir for providing me with that information which you could have
> easily stated way back when this whole thing started. I am familar with the
> theater publications, not the Hollywood TV ones and I will go look it up
> myself provided it is in the library. JMU does not have the reputation of
> having the greatest literary resources around. But I'm sure a prof. in the TV
> Media department would have a copy or know where I could get one.
>
Then why did you still complain about not...grr...forget it!
> > "...one producer who goes only by his initials...."
> >
> > Excuse me, but what the hell does THAT bit of smear-tactic mean when
> > my name is right on top of every single damned message I post? Do you mean
> > that after all this time you -- gasp! -- don't know WHO I AM? You mean you
> > see "only" some initials on the bottom of a message and you're so confused
> > by who this might be that you've fallen down the dark, dusty staircase you
> > call your cerebullum and now can't get up? Good heavens, I've had an
> > alias all this time and I haven't known it! I'm a stealth producer! No
> > one knows who I am, just those....INITIALS! Suddenly I feel like the
> > Batman.
> >
>
> Smear tactic?!?!? How dare you even mention something like "smear tactic" when
> you go around cussing out people for posting contrary opinions? Need I go back
There is a difference between contrary opinions and insults. Of
course, judging by some of the posts I have seen from you/your father, I
wouldn't be surprised if you don't know that. How is saying, "JMS is a
liar," "JMS isn't on the Internet," and everything else a contrary
opinion? It's flamebait, but that's hardly a contrary opinion.
> and highlight the inflamatory, derogatory, sexist, vile names you have called
> me in this post not to mention other posts? I might have been a bit
> inflamatory but I did not call you any sort of name.
I'll decline to comment on THAT.
>
> > In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
> > here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
> > here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
> > be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
> > for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
> > overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
> > be reposted here, because it always is.
> >
>
> Great!! Unfortunately I do not have access to CompuServ. Could you post them
> here as well or at least mention that it is posted somewhere instead of
> spouting off the same rhetoric?
Why must you get mad at JMS when you yourself say nothing but the
same thing over and over?
>
> > You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
> > notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
> > as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
> > isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
> > something's WRONG, isn't it?
>
> No sir, you have this idea that it is totally unthinkable for anyone to
> contradict you or your show. That your person is sacred and should never have
> anything bad said about it. On the flip side, you take every liberty to
> insult, smear, debase, degrade, denigrate, and in other words flame the hell
> out of anyone you consider to be a thorn in your side. Mr. Stracynski, for
> someone who has a degree in Psychology and has done counseling, you have piss
> poor interpersonal skills, do pardon my French and I'll leave it at that.
I had decided to reserve my opinion on you until I actually heard
something you had to say. Well, apparently, once again, JMS was right.
Now, I am not one of those people that goes around saying that everything
JMS says or does is right, but in this case I have to agree. Look at
what you did in that paragraph and honestly tell all of us how much that
is like what you claim JMS does all the time.
>
> > Re: my veracity, you say, "I'd be wary and seek a second opinion or
> > read very carefully to see what info isn't being said."
> >
> > And because something isn't being said, you thererfore assume that
> > something's wrong, being held back. And what precise second opinion did
> > you have in mind? Perhaps the PUBLISHED TRADES I commended to you a
> > moment ago?
>
> Okay, so it is alright to say something like "Maybe there is another side to
> what Clinton is saying," but it is not alright to say it about the
THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!
> Entertainment industry? Please, press-releases and offical statments are
> certainly not the whole truth. And maybe my 5th grade teacher was wrong but
> she said that news articles are always written with some sort of bias and one
> needs more than one source on any issue to really get the full story. You seem
> to think that your word is as infallible as the Pope speaking "Ex Cathedra."
>
> >
> > Enough. Enough of you, and your father/alter ego; enough of your
> > smears, and your oh-so-carefully-phrased-not-to-use-bad-words, let's jsut
> > call him a liar *quietly*, and your lurking on the back fence as we have
> > a decent conversation, adding nothing but a murmuring, soft voice that
> > mewls "don't trust him, don't trust him"...at whom somebody ought to toss
> > an old shoe.
> >
> Well, lets just say we'll stop it if you will. :)
If you would stop saying these things in the first place, JMS would
have no reason to respond. But I have seen countless messages from
you/your father on every conceivable subject about how bad the show/JMS
is, and you have yet to let up once. If you refuse to stop slamming him
and the show at every opportunity, why should he give up the opportunity
to defend himself? I don't see how you can even ASK that.
>
> > I'm not going to do your damned homework for you, Deborah, do it
> > yourself. And if you've got ANYTHING to say, ANY proof that what I've
> > said here is anything other than what's been posted, you or that
> > homunculus Theron should speak up or shut up. Every time we get a nice,
> > pleasant, friendly atmosphere going here, and a good conversation, you two
> > poster children for co-dependency swoop in here and piss all over th
> > place.
>
> Nice, friendly atmosphere? Please. This is the net. Bring your own asbestos
> suit. I've been on here over 5 years and know that no place is completely
> flame free or friendly homey. IF it isn't me or my father its going to be
> someone else. And once again, calling people names isn't fostering the
> friendly atmosphere you claim this newsgroup has.
Exactly. So why don't you try not doing it?
>
> >
> > Get a clue or get out. I've had it with both of you.
> >
> > jms
>
> And what about you JMS? Do you clean up your language and act as well? Or is
> it beyond someone of your status? You can play outside of the rules and demand
> that people not insult you while you hurl every sort of tort at them?
I've told you before: he's human. He has a right to defend himself
against the likes of you, and, quite frankly, I would be surprised if he
didn't, after the stuff you throw at him. If you don't want him to throw
back, try not throwing anything at him in the first place. Try
practicing what you preach, Theron/Deborah.
*******Matthew Murray at mmu...@wsu.edu or i971...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu*******
******************************************************************************
GT d? H- s:+>+: !g p? !au>+ a-- w+>++ v+>++ C++(+++) UO+ P? !L>L !3>3 E----
N++(+++) K->K W--- M+>++ V-- po Y+>++ t(+)@ 5+++ j1 R- G' tv+(++) b+>++
D--- B e>+ u+ h+>++ f--(+)>++ !r>r+(++) n--(---) !y+>+
******************************************************************************
***Actor - Computer game wizard - B5 fanatic - German speaker - First tenor***
Christopher B. Berger
Organization: Georgia State University
Distribution:
Trey (trey...@merlin.nando.net) wrote:
: > Theron Fuller sez...
: > >
: > >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
: > >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
: > >flames?
: Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick and
: dirty on kill files? Thanks.
: Trey in RTP, NC
Someone tell me how to use the kill file also please. I enjoy this
newsgroup too much too have it ruined by the rantings of the fullers.
I use a tin system.
Elton John Tucker
: :do.net>
: Organization: Georgia State University
: Distribution:
: Trey (trey...@merlin.nando.net) wrote:
: : > Theron Fuller sez...
[Brain dead drivel deleted]
: : Trey in RTP, NC
: Someone tell me how to use the kill file also please. I enjoy this
: newsgroup too much too have it ruined by the rantings of the fullers.
: I use a tin system.
Lucky you, I just dumped tweedle-dum and tweedle-dummer into my
tin kill file a couple of minutes ago.
first highlight a message thread started by fuller (shouldn't be
hard to find, but if you can't don't worry)
Just hit <control>-k (hold down control and tap k)
This will bring up a screen that lets you change the kill file
attributes.
the first option should be kill, just hit return and leave this
the way it is, also leave the next two areas blank (unless there
are specific topics you want to kill) when you get to the fourth
and final option box you will want the fullers' email address in
it. (if you had ^-k 'ed from one of their threads that would be
the default).
Once you enter all of this just hit return again, save the
kill file changes and voila, one dual-fuller morte (season to taste)
Last thing, you may want to save as many of these peoples'
messages as you can get you hands on first, as well as JMS's
responses to them. Just in case they ever do try to make waves.
P.S. If Theron or Deb is reading this I got the majority of your
drivel socked away. Don't make waves, you are in the wrong and
between us in this group we can clearly prove it. Personally I'm
tempted to have your account yanked as it is. I don't condone
email bombing, but the likes of you two have no business having
an internet account. If you are unable to adapt to internet
culture, I would recommend that you remove yourself from it.
Jay Denebeim
Sure, here's mine.
/ane...@alturia.abq.nm.us/f:j
/sgl...@primenet.com/f:j
/fullert/f:j
/FULLERDR/f:j
You put the string you want to search for in /'s, that will kill a
topic, putting the f qualifier in searches for who its from rather
then the subject. The :j means to 'junk' the article into the bit
bucket.
The specific people I've kill filed are: Alan(?) Newton superfundi,
Steve Glitz whom I can't recall, and the Fuller twins.
I sometimes regret this, Mr. Newton actually has some good posts when
he's not trying to beat us senseless with his religion. Deb and even
Theron are also capable of rational thought on occasion.
Jay
--
Sig under construction
Jay Denebeim
j...@deepthot.cary.nc.us dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
dene...@deepthot.cybernetics.net duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Bob Alberti
: > Theron Fuller sez...
: > >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
: > >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
: > >flames?
*sigh* God, you're a jackass, Theron. Get a f-ing life.
: Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick and
: dirty on kill files? Thanks.
Well, RTFM old boy, you know? However, if you're using TIN, here's a
copy of *MY* killfile, located in ~/.tin/kill Note that it eliminates
Fullers (can't do anything about quoted messages unfortunately), and
flags anything Joe writes.
Yes, Theron, I worship Joe. Pathetic, but it beats worshipping oneself, as
you do. How you can type with all that hair on your palms I'll never know...
# 1st line 1=(Subject: only) 2=(From: only) 3=(Subject: & From:)
# K=(kill) H=(auto-selection)
# 2nd line 0=(kill on all newsgroups) >0=(kill on specific newsgroup)
#
# 001 HOT
2 H
-88667211
*straczynski*
#
# 002 KILL
2 K
-88667211
*ful...@ix.netcom.com*
#
# 003 KILL
2 K
-88667211
*FULL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu*
Robert Miller
Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <3k7bps$j...@freeside.fc.net> rmi...@freeside.fc.net (Robert Miller)
>writes:
>>where he is one of the resident cranks. Suffice it to say, acting
>>like Ted Holden is not a good thing.
>And you true believers should check out whatever newsgroup it is that's
>discussing the ins and outs of Scientology to see who you resemble.
That's exactly the kind of thing Holden would say. You have proved my
point.
So now we're true believers because we won't accept your accusations and
innuendo without evidence, and instead take the word of someone in a
position to actually know something? Very well then, I'm a true believer.
Kurt Reisler
Christopher B. Berger <fnc...@gsusgi2.Gsu.EDU> wrote:
>
>Someone tell me how to use the kill file also please. I enjoy this
>newsgroup too much too have it ruined by the rantings of the fullers.
>I use a tin system.
>
KILL FILE LESSON:
CAVEAT - This is very dependent on your news reader.
DISCLAIMER: This does not represent an endorsement of KILL files. Any
resemblance to topics or posters, living or AI, is purely the result of
using my KILL file for examples.
Kill file location:
From "rn" derivatives (rn, nrn, trn, tin, etc), if you press the "K"
key, you will generate an entry in the KILL file for this news group in
a file called "KILL" (real imagination there), in a subdirectory in your
$HOME directory, whose path corresponds to the news group name.
Confused?
A KILL file for rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 would be located at
$HOME/News/rec/arts/sf/tv/babylon5/KILL
Contents:
The entry that is created using the "K" key is for the contents of the
Subject line, and looks like this:
/: *Homosexuality argument/:j
You can make it more general by doing this
/: *omosexuality/:j
Now, if you want to clobber a specific poster, you need to make the
entry manually. In the above-mentioned readers, a "^K" (Control-K for
the carrot impaired) will cause you to edit the kill file for the news
group. Of, you can use the editor of your choice outside of the reader.
A kill line aimed at specific contents ANYWHERE in the header looks thus:
/: *fuller/h:j
Which does what you would expect.
There are also "global kill files" which are useful for eliminating
Known Spammers.
Your best bet is to RTFM for your news reader :-)
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
!! Leave the trolls under the bridge !!
Theron Fuller
writes:
The true believers aren't really interested in debate. I found that out
the first two times I got flamed by JMS. (And apparently JMS isn't
either, unless it's something almost completely trivial and you don't
hold to your own position too strongly.)
The only thing stating my postion on O'Hare's leaving and the way the
departure of Commande Sinclair was handled would be to encourage the
true believers to accuse me of lying about what I said previously, and
to flame me about what I prevously said.
That's the tactics that have been used on me for two flame wars in the
past. This time, I'm going to confront any attack chihuahua who makes
some dead-horse statement about me to either represent my points on
issues fairly, prove the substance of their scurilous attacks, or put me
in their kill files and shut up.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
writes:
Yeah, the first flame in the cycle is first rate (Hence the message
subject: "Great Flame!"). The second one was not bad, but seemed a
little rushed and uncertain. The succeding ones have been rather
strange. JMS seems to be getting really eccentric and unfocused. No
wit, no cutting barbs, no clever twists of what I've posted, no searing
attacks. The "Uncle Horace" flame is downright bizarre.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Jeff Smith
> Then please put me in your kill file and get on with discussing B5.
Done, done and DONE. "/ful...@ix.netcom.com/Hfrom:j" are the sweetest words
I ever typed..
smith
Theron Fuller
(Greg Henderson) writes:
>
>Theron Fuller sez...
>>
>>Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
>>kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
>>flames?
>
>It's a strange day when I find myself in complete agreement in with
>the erumpent Mr. Fuller... :)
Uh, but >you're< still posting, no?
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
writes:
>
>Trey (trey...@merlin.nando.net) wrote:
>
>: > Theron Fuller sez...
>: > >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in
your
>: > >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in
endless
>: > >flames?
>
>*sigh* God, you're a jackass, Theron. Get a f-ing life.
>
>: Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick
and
>: dirty on kill files? Thanks.
>
>Well, RTFM old boy, you know? However, if you're using TIN, here's a
>copy of *MY* killfile, located in ~/.tin/kill Note that it eliminates
>Fullers (can't do anything about quoted messages unfortunately), and
>flags anything Joe writes.
>
>Yes, Theron, I worship Joe. Pathetic, but it beats worshipping
oneself, as
>you do. How you can type with all that hair on your palms I'll never
know...
O.K. by me. That's one more true believer who finally saw the light.
Don't be shy, true believers. Follow your leader's teaching. Get out
of the pool, already.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Theron Fuller
writes:
>
>In article <3k7juv$m...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Theron Fuller <ful...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <3k7bps$j...@freeside.fc.net> rmi...@freeside.fc.net (Robert
Miller)
>>writes:
>>>Those who don't know anything about Holden can check out
talk.origins,
>>>where he is one of the resident cranks. Suffice it to say, acting
>>>like Ted Holden is not a good thing.
>
>>And you true believers should check out whatever newsgroup it is
that's
>>discussing the ins and outs of Scientology to see who you resemble.
>
>That's exactly the kind of thing Holden would say. You have proved my
>point.
And that's exactly the kind of response one of L. Ron's true believers
would counter with. Amazing how these cult followers of science-fiction
writers all think and act the same.
>
>So now we're true believers because we won't accept your accusations
and
>innuendo without evidence, and instead take the word of someone in a
>position to actually know something? Very well then, I'm a true
believer.
Bet your bippy you are! Now to really prove it, whatever JMS tells you
directly to do, or suggests in a flame, just do it. Don't think about
it at all. JMS knows best. Remembe that.
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Regards,
Theron Fuller
Christopher Wilcoxson
>Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
>kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
>flames?
Sounds great to me.
Off the Pine, through the Elm, around the tin, over the bash prompt,
nuthin but net.
<<plonk>>
Sam Gorton
>
>The true believers aren't really interested in debate. I found that out
>the first two times I got flamed by JMS. (And apparently JMS isn't
>either, unless it's something almost completely trivial and you don't
>hold to your own position too strongly.)
Theron, your statement seems to imply that there's no one on this
newsgroup but "true believers", JMS, and the Fullers. If you think
that's so, why you are here? If you don't think that's so, why not
post a restatement for anyone who is interested in your real opinion?
>The only thing stating my postion on O'Hare's leaving and the way the
>departure of Commande Sinclair was handled would be to encourage the
>true believers to accuse me of lying about what I said previously, and
>to flame me about what I prevously said.
Actually, I don't agree. Actually posting your opinions on thing would
be a way to stop the endless "You said this", "No I didn't," "Yes you
did," and so on, and so forth, ad infinitum.
>That's the tactics that have been used on me for two flame wars in the
>past. This time, I'm going to confront any attack chihuahua who makes
>some dead-horse statement about me to either represent my points on
>issues fairly, prove the substance of their scurilous attacks, or put me
>in their kill files and shut up.
The 'tactics' that have been used on you? Hm. I have difficulty
believing that everyone in this newsgroup could agree on what toppings
to put on a pizza, much less a concerted plan of attack.
And the problem with your statement is that your opinions aren't
_available_. I read some of them before; I remember what I think they
were, but I can't be sure. How can I possibly represent your points
on issues fairly if I'm not sure what in the hell they are?
Theron, finally... I don't think this is an effective tactic for
what you claim you want. By refusing all calls to restate your
position so that debate can go back to the issues of what you said
and the implications thereof, you have a hard time looking like
you're actually interested in debate. It seems then (and now)
that you're more interested in feeding your ego and proving to
yourself that you're just as good as JMS than you are in actually
contributing things to a discussion of Babylon5.
--Sam
(Again, not speaking for LL, and not even channelling for the Tick
figure on top of my monitor.)
Elizabeth R Cornwell
>
> The 'tactics' that have been used on you? Hm. I have difficulty
> believing that everyone in this newsgroup could agree on what toppings
> to put on a pizza, much less a concerted plan of attack.
Wait... you can't actually be saying that there's someone in this
newsgroup who doesn't order double pepperoni/double cheese EVERY SINGLE
TIME? Can you? Boy... the silly things people around here will say,
just to hear themselves talk.
E.
lanshark
: : > Theron Fuller sez...
: : > >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
: : > >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
: : > >flames?
: : Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick and
: : dirty on kill files? Thanks.
: Someone tell me how to use the kill file also please. I enjoy this
: newsgroup too much too have it ruined by the rantings of the fullers.
: I use a tin system.
If you are using the "tin" newsreader, here's how...
Find a post by the poster you are trying to kill, and make sure
you are reading that post, then hit "CTRL k".
You will then get a kill file screen. To toggle any of the options,
use the SPACE BAR, to get to the next option, use the RETURN key.
Note that you can also put thread topics into your kill file, not
just obnoxious posters. So if the thread topic doesn't bother you,
be sure to toggle that choice to "No".
When you are finished, you will get an option to either edit your
kill file, save the changes, or quit, therefore abandoning the
changes. If you messed up and want ot start over, be sure to do
a "q".
Just one more note, some versions of tin have a bug, where if you
try to kill file a topic or poster while doing a thread list (if
you used the "l" for "list" command), you will get kicked out
of tin, although your kill file entry is saved.
hope this helps, and wasn't too confusing!
--lanshark
Theron Fuller
spe...@samsun.us.oracle.com (Stephen Peters) writes:
>
>In article <3k7juv$m...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> ful...@ix.netcom.com
(Theron Fuller) writes:
>> And you true believers should check out whatever newsgroup it is
that's
>> discussing the ins and outs of Scientology to see who you resemble.
>
>Theron, if they were at all like the Church of Scientology, we might
>all be a lot happier -- all your posts would just...disappear...no
>followups, no flamewars, just blissful silence.
>
>
> Stephen Peters
>
>P.S. Hey, everyone, I guess this makes me a chihuahua! Yap! Yap!
>
>
There is a lot to be said for ineptness, isn't there? ;-)
Regards,
Theron Fuller
9ce...@mowonder.com
IF>:do.net>
IF>Organization: Georgia State University
IF>Distribution:
IF>Trey (trey...@merlin.nando.net) wrote:
IF>: > Theron Fuller sez...
IF>: > >
IF>: > >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
IF>: > >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
IF>: > >flames?
IF>: Okay, I'd love to do that! Would someone mind giving me the quick and
IF>: dirty on kill files? Thanks.
IF>: Trey in RTP, NC
IF>Someone tell me how to use the kill file also please. I enjoy this
IF>newsgroup too much too have it ruined by the rantings of the fullers.
IF>I use a tin system.
Depending on your mode of access to the Usenet, you may or may not
have the capability to killfile all posts from a given user. This
option is not open to those of us who access the Usenet indirectly, by
way of a BBS gateway. If you have a Newsreader, you will probably be
able to find a softkey or keystroke which allows you to set up a
customized list of names, subjects, etc, which your reader will then
automatically delete as it receives new input from the Net.
The rest of us, the "Gateway Brigade" if you like, use the more
primitive method of scanning headers for names and phrases we find
objectionable, such as "Allen J. Newton" or "Is Talia Bisexual" or
what-not, and then select (N)ext message. I am told that JMS uses a
gateway rather than a newsreader, so I guess he just hits (N) whenever
he sees a certain name pop up, just as I do.
= $0.09 =
-----Side Note: It seems that Fate herself has decided to killfile me.
The BBS whose Usenet Gateway I use has recently announced that it will
fold near the end of this month, due to mounting financial burdens. Oh,
well....looks like I have to go Gateway hunting soon.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Merchants of Wonder BBS -- 21 lines of friendly users, cool games, files and
more! -- North Hollywood, CA, USA -- +1 (818) 508-0214 -- The views of our
users do not necessarily reflect the views of the Staff of MoW BBS!!!
Echo
: >
: >Oh thank heaven! Now why don't all you true believers put me in your
: >kill files and stop making the same old tired assertions in endless
: >flames?
Ya know? Funny...but that's just what I think I'll do
Chris Hanlon
>From: strac...@genie.geis.com
>Subject: Re: Yo Theron
>Date: 12 Mar 1995 20:25:20 -0500
> Deborah (assuming this really is you and not Theron logging on under
>another name to get some sympathy)...I'm sorry but you fail the test of
>logic on just about every conceivable level. By your lights, it's okay to
>smear people's reputations, announce that people are not to be trusted,
>imply that they are liars, all that's fine as long as one doesn't use bad
>words. What a wonderfully convenient and perverse world you live in.
>
> You look around and say, well, gee, Joe hasn't produced the ratings,
>maybe something's wrong, why are they being withheld, maybe the whole
>truth isn't being told...you want to know the details, and demand that I
>provide them to you.
>>>SNIP<<<
> In addition, I *have* posted the specific ratings on many occasions,
>here and elsewhere. For the last week on Compuserve (verifiable by many
>here who are also on CIS, since after all I'm a producer and can't really
>be trusted to say anything honest about the business) I posted the ratings
>for various areas of the country, including share, and how the general
>overall ratings have increased. Probably sooner or later that stuff will
>be reposted here, because it always is.
>
> You and Theron (unless you are one and the same) have this nutty
>notion that you can ask anything you want, be as accusative and slanderous
>as you want, but that's okay...and if *everything* you want and ask for
>isn't provided INSTANTLY, in excruciating detail...well, then, my goodness
>something's WRONG, isn't it?
>
> Re: my veracity, you say, "I'd be wary and seek a second opinion or
>read very carefully to see what info isn't being said."
>
Not to mention the fact that even if you did post complete, detailed, and up
to the second numbers, they'd maintain that since you're a producer (read "not
to be trusted") you'd just made up the numbers to prove your point... :-)
BTW - this gets added to my file of "JMS - Greatest Flames Vol. 1."
****************************************************************
* C. Hanlon cha...@vaxxine.com *
* The opinions expressed above don't have to make sense, they're mine *
* *
****************************************************************
Byran Lee
CJW> v...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
CJW> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
CJW> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
CJW> Theron Fuller (ful...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> And I'm going to try to use every opportunity to point out that JMS is
> no ordinary poster here. He automatically gets more respect and
> consideration than any ordinary poster.
CJW> You are, in fact, wrong. Joe Straczynski sits in front of a
CJW> computer, like everyone else. He types on a keyboard, like everyone
CJW> else. He gives his opinions, like everyone else. He gets pissed off
CJW> at certain people, like everyone else. He is an ordinary usenet
CJW> contributor.
Damn right Theron's wrong. JMS gets the respect Theron's complaining
about because he's earned it. Theron doesn't get any respect from
most people because (a) he's basically demanding that people respect
him and his brat, and (b) Theron's an asshole, as can be seen from
his message.
CJW> JMS gets respect because of what he says and how he says it. It is
CJW> not automatic. I would, personally, hate to be part of a network
CJW> that had no such outstanding personalities.
I can honestly say I like and respect JMS, even though I have never
met the man because of his postings. He seems like someone who has
enough confidence in himself not to really care what people like the
Fullers think of him. I really admire that in a person.
> Therefore, he should be aware that he has to be more responsible, more
> mature, and more restrained in his conduct here than an ordinary poster.
CJW> He most certainly does not have such a responsibility. He would were
CJW> he desirous of becoming a cultural icon. It sounds as though you may
CJW> suspect that of him, but it is by no means an impression which I have
CJW> received; he is just someone who a lot of people have decided is
CJW> likeable. Charisma does not carry a massive social responsibility.
I totally agree with you Colin.
* AmyBW v2.11 *
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