<<SPOILERS!!!>> Pieces of 5 year ARC revealed.
a4jfinna
*WAY* in advance, the following theoretical information is believed to
be factual (or pretty damn close) in these areas.
If it IS accurate, you may not want to read much further...
And if you're JMS, you most CERTAINLY do not want to read this.
I'm not sure how legalality things go, but these are NOT story ideas.
This is based on a) Knowledge picked up by Joe's posts, and b) Season 1
episodes. Nothing else. Where appropriate I have referenced the inspiration
for the theory.
Excuse poor spelling.
English not Zathras skill :)
The Gathering:
Has anyone noticed the white shirted technician in the C&C dome?
Played by Ed Wasser, this character is called "Guerra" (sort of 'War' in
Spanish / French) Joe has been very vague in saying if this is indeed
'Morden', but we believe it IS.
Sinclair:
The most telling quote is from the soul-hunter, "You would plan such
a thing.." etc.. Sinclair is believed to be Valen, re-incarnated. Check the
quote in Parliament...
"Will you follow me into storm, into fire, into darkness, into death?
And the 9 said 'Yes'. Then do this in testimony to The One who will follow.
Who will bring death, disguised as new life. And renewal disguised as defeat."
This refers to the battle with EA. 'Renewal disguised as defeat.' and
we know Sinclair is "The One"
He leaves in Season 2 to journey to Minbar, as the Earth Force's new
Ambassador to the Minabri. It is from there he begins to let destiny take him.
Shadows:
The Shadows have been around a LONG time. Even in the pilot. They
may have been behind the assasaination attempt on Kosh. Although the Narn
were revealed to be the culprits, they had help. And not just from the
Minbari.
The Narn were told that it would be blamed on the Centauri. That is
why (a) G'Kar tries to blame it on Londo, and (b) why the assasain keeps
Londo from the docking bay.
The assasain was under orders to do that, but was himself told that
the killing would implicate Sinclair, who the Warrior caste hate & fear.
The telepath Lyta, may have been under Psi-core orders, but her exact
role (if any) is still unknown.
Laurel Takashima may not have been acting of her own free will (or
so it was said by Joe himself) and the only other suspicious person who
could have influenced her is Guerra/Morden.
Don't under estimate the power of the Shadows. They have already made
contact with all of the governments involved. (Except EA, perhaps, where they
may have only contacted the Psi-Core. Ask Bester :)
The reasons we know this is (1) Morden spoke of things happening VERY
high up in the Centauri homeworld. (2) When he went to see G'Kar, he had made
an appointment via someone in the FIRST circle. (3) I think it's obvious to
everyone that the Minbari split will result in the Warrior caste siding with
the Shadows.
(ASIDE: Watch VERY carefully in B-squared, when Delenn first speaks to the
council. Most bow reverently, but watch the ones who don't. You can take note
of their position relative to the guy with the staff. They are the ones who
(later) refuse Delenns request. They are 4. They are members of the warrior
caste. It is worth noting that one of them is the guy who went to Delenn to
remind her about possibly killing Sinclair. So at the moment, the religious
caste are 5 to 4 on the council. But a new leader is being chosen...)
Joe has agreed that a VERY good question is why haven't the Psi-Core
detected the Shadows, and if they have, why haven't they told anyone yet??
The President of EA.
Was killed by Psi-Core (most likely) and the Vice-President was in on
it. Expect major changes in the EA's policies towards aliens from now on.
Of course, the Shadows are behind it all... (A 'virus' my ass!!)
Londo will continue rising in stature through Morden's help, until he
owes them/him a GREAT deal. We'll see the Emperor early on in Season 2. Expect
to see signs that Londo may even be Emperor one day. He will find that Morden
offers his help more and more, and then Londo, greedy with sucess, asks for it.
Like a drug he becomes dependant on, he will ask for greater and greater things
with the shadows giving it to him always. Until he's in too deep to let go.
Londo is unltimately a tragic figure, who will redeem himself before the end.
Laurel Takashima is on the rim at the moment. On a top secret mission.
Morden was also out on the rim. Lair of the shadows ?? Possibly.
Note that Marianne Robertson (tech #1) will be missing for year 2, but back
by year 3. When she returns, will she also do a 'Morden', ala from pilot
to Year 1??
Zathras:
A new species, and obviously the ones with the Time-Travel technology
not yet available to anyone. (barring possibly the Vorlons) They could
possibly have been enslaved by a race, and see Sinclair as their liberator.
Maybe, they too are on the Rim.
B-Squared:
Note that Sinclair in his flash-forward is NOT as old as 'The One'
is revealed to be. And the war is heating up THEN, thus B^2 may have its
flashes set in Year 2, 3, or 4. My prediction: Year 4.
Vorlons:
Principally seen by most as the side of Light, to counter the Shadows.
Not all - powerful by any means. The references to time by Kosh are really
strange. "Reflection, surprise, terror. For the future."
"Beautiful. Yes. I will miss this, when it's gone."
"They are a dying race. We should let them pass."
"The avalanche has begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I don't think that last one was directed solely at the parents.
"Studying."
Kosh is always and forever what he appears to be.
Kosh is never what he seems to be.
These are not conflicting statements. (or so Joe said) and they are the
straightest answers he has given yet.
I for one, will be very disappointed if the Minbari turn out to be
a pre-pupal Vorlon species. A few people have mentioned that possibility after
seeing Delenn's reaction to Kosh.
I think the more telling thing is that she goes to Sinclair and is
prepared to tell him all she knows, just after seeing Kosh.
"I must know for sure." Kosh showed her something alright. But the
information, whatever it was, was probably to do with her trusting Sinclair
with the truth about his destiny. The Triluminary (minature) reacted to him
in Sky.. but this was not enough. She was there to evaluate if Valen meant
the humans in his prophesy. (or even if he meant Sinclair personally) Kosh
shows Delenn something. Himself ?
(ASIDE: Total guess work here, with no basis in fact.
Perhaps the Vorlons are like beings made out of tachyons?
Sort of like a living viewscreen, with views of the past and future?
Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate in
the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'. Maybe Kosh is a historian?
Again, either way, Joe (who read stuff like Lord of the Rings) says the
Vorlons are *VERY* *VERY* long lived. Longer than the universe? Maybe they
really HAVE seen it all before? These are all just loose theories so far.)
Anyway, that will do for now. If anyone has comments, please post.
Let's see some REAL discussion going on, and cut the talk of is '?' gay/bi .
Okay ?
Okay.
Aaron Brezenski
a4jfinna <a4jf...@compapp.dcu.ie> wrote:
[mostly interesting speculation deleted]
>Note that Marianne Robertson (tech #1) will be missing for year 2, but back
>by year 3. When she returns, will she also do a 'Morden', ala from pilot
>to Year 1??
I don't recall JMS saying Marianne would be back in year three. I thought she
just left to pursue other projects, period.
>Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate in
>the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
>the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'.
This has been stated so many times people have come to believe it.
Unfortunately, it is totally wrong. Kosh was present in the Council chambers
in "Midnight on the Firing Line".
Aaron Brezenski
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me."
Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati
"If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion."
"... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?"
Angela Schmuecker
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> The most telling quote is from the soul-hunter, "You would plan such
>a thing.." etc.. Sinclair is believed to be Valen, re-incarnated. Check the
>quote in Parliament...
would say "Maybe!!!!!"
AKS
DNAiel of Branford College
: >Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate in
: >the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
: >the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'.
: This has been stated so many times people have come to believe it.
: Unfortunately, it is totally wrong. Kosh was present in the Council chambers
: in "Midnight on the Firing Line".
The Narn-Centauri conflict is the spark for the great war. "We should
let them pass." Because the other races (including and especially the
Narn and Centauri) will not let go of the conflict...it will erupt into
the great war. Kosh is there to see the incident from the
beginning...thus being at the MOTFL conference confirms, not negates, the
theory.
-D
John Benn
>Having sucessfully predicted the outcome of the first year of Babylon 5
>*WAY* in advance, the following theoretical information is believed to
>be factual (or pretty damn close) in these areas.
>
>If it IS accurate, you may not want to read much further...
>And if you're JMS, you most CERTAINLY do not want to read this.
>I'm not sure how legalality things go, but these are NOT story ideas.
>This is based on a) Knowledge picked up by Joe's posts, and b) Season 1
>episodes. Nothing else. Where appropriate I have referenced the inspiration
>for the theory.
>Excuse poor spelling.
>English not Zathras skill :)
>The Gathering:
> Has anyone noticed the white shirted technician in the C&C dome?
>Played by Ed Wasser, this character is called "Guerra" (sort of 'War' in
>Spanish / French) Joe has been very vague in saying if this is indeed
>'Morden', but we believe it IS.
This is academic, but believable.
>Sinclair:
> The most telling quote is from the soul-hunter, "You would plan such
>a thing.." etc.. Sinclair is believed to be Valen, re-incarnated. Check the
>quote in Parliament...
> "Will you follow me into storm, into fire, into darkness, into death?
>And the 9 said 'Yes'. Then do this in testimony to The One who will follow.
>Who will bring death, disguised as new life. And renewal disguised as defeat."
> This refers to the battle with EA. 'Renewal disguised as defeat.' and
>we know Sinclair is "The One"
> He leaves in Season 2 to journey to Minbar, as the Earth Force's new
>Ambassador to the Minabri. It is from there he begins to let destiny take him.
I agree completely. It will be interesting to see how the
Minbari's views (all based on religious prophecy) will contrast with
the other characters' view of what is going on. JMS will have to
provide a rational possible explanation for all the religious
phenomenon going on like he did in "Soul Hunter" (personality matrix..)
>Shadows:
> The Shadows have been around a LONG time. Even in the pilot. They
>may have been behind the assasaination attempt on Kosh. Although the Narn
>were revealed to be the culprits, they had help. And not just from the
>Minbari.
> The Narn were told that it would be blamed on the Centauri. That is
>why (a) G'Kar tries to blame it on Londo, and (b) why the assasain keeps
>Londo from the docking bay.
> The assasain was under orders to do that, but was himself told that
>the killing would implicate Sinclair, who the Warrior caste hate & fear.
I LOVE this. Absolute agreement. G'Kar is told that he should be
able to form an alliance with the Minbari in order to help them crush
the humans if they in turn help the Narns crush the Centauri. It's
perfect.
> Laurel Takashima may not have been acting of her own free will (or
>so it was said by Joe himself) and the only other suspicious person who
>could have influenced her is Guerra/Morden.
It's possible. I'm of the opinion though that she got in over her
head and had to help the shadows.
> Don't under estimate the power of the Shadows. They have already made
>contact with all of the governments involved. (Except EA, perhaps, where they
>may have only contacted the Psi-Core. Ask Bester :)
> The reasons we know this is (1) Morden spoke of things happening VERY
>high up in the Centauri homeworld. (2) When he went to see G'Kar, he had made
>an appointment via someone in the FIRST circle. (3) I think it's obvious to
>everyone that the Minbari split will result in the Warrior caste siding with
>the Shadows.
This is most certainly likely.
>(ASIDE: Watch VERY carefully in B-squared, when Delenn first speaks to the
>council. Most bow reverently, but watch the ones who don't. You can take note
>of their position relative to the guy with the staff. They are the ones who
>(later) refuse Delenns request. They are 4. They are members of the warrior
>caste. It is worth noting that one of them is the guy who went to Delenn to
>remind her about possibly killing Sinclair. So at the moment, the religious
>caste are 5 to 4 on the council. But a new leader is being chosen...)
I like it, but I'm not sure there is enough evidence to support this.
> Joe has agreed that a VERY good question is why haven't the Psi-Core
>detected the Shadows, and if they have, why haven't they told anyone yet??
I have more to say about this at the end. There are "Points.o.D"
spoilers in it though.
>The President of EA.
> Was killed by Psi-Core (most likely) and the Vice-President was in on
>it. Expect major changes in the EA's policies towards aliens from now on.
>Of course, the Shadows are behind it all... (A 'virus' my ass!!)
This was pretty obvious.
> Londo will continue rising in stature through Morden's help, until he
>owes them/him a GREAT deal. We'll see the Emperor early on in Season 2. Expect
>to see signs that Londo may even be Emperor one day. He will find that Morden
>offers his help more and more, and then Londo, greedy with sucess, asks for it.
>Like a drug he becomes dependant on, he will ask for greater and greater things
>with the shadows giving it to him always. Until he's in too deep to let go.
>Londo is unltimately a tragic figure, who will redeem himself before the end.
It works. This was pretty obvious as well.
> Laurel Takashima is on the rim at the moment. On a top secret mission.
>Morden was also out on the rim. Lair of the shadows ?? Possibly.
>Note that Marianne Robertson (tech #1) will be missing for year 2, but back
>by year 3. When she returns, will she also do a 'Morden', ala from pilot
>to Year 1??
This is too much. It doesn't matter either way, but it could happen.
>Zathras:
> A new species, and obviously the ones with the Time-Travel technology
>not yet available to anyone. (barring possibly the Vorlons) They could
>possibly have been enslaved by a race, and see Sinclair as their liberator.
>Maybe, they too are on the Rim.
I LOVE this one too. Great speculation. Freed from the grip of
the shadows they decide to share their tech.
>B-Squared:
> Note that Sinclair in his flash-forward is NOT as old as 'The One'
>is revealed to be. And the war is heating up THEN, thus B^2 may have its
>flashes set in Year 2, 3, or 4. My prediction: Year 4.
I think JMS said as much actually.
>Vorlons:
> Principally seen by most as the side of Light, to counter the Shadows.
>Not all-powerful by any means. The references to time by Kosh are really
>strange. "Reflection, surprise, terror. For the future."
> "Beautiful. Yes. I will miss this, when it's gone."
> "They are a dying race. We should let them pass."
> "The avalanche has begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
>I don't think that last one was directed solely at the parents.
> "Studying."
> Kosh is always and forever what he appears to be.
> Kosh is never what he seems to be.
>These are not conflicting statements. (or so Joe said) and they are the
>straightest answers he has given yet.
> I for one, will be very disappointed if the Minbari turn out to be
>a pre-pupal Vorlon species. A few people have mentioned that possibility after
>seeing Delenn's reaction to Kosh.
> I think the more telling thing is that she goes to Sinclair and is
>prepared to tell him all she knows, just after seeing Kosh.
> "I must know for sure." Kosh showed her something alright. But the
>information, whatever it was, was probably to do with her trusting Sinclair
>with the truth about his destiny. The Triluminary (minature) reacted to him
>in Sky.. but this was not enough. She was there to evaluate if Valen meant
>the humans in his prophesy. (or even if he meant Sinclair personally) Kosh
>shows Delenn something. Himself ?
I'm still stumped on the Vorlon part. I don't like any theory
which paints the Vorlons as beings of energy or light etc... Kosh was
operated on and physically poisoned. He has a physical form.
Tachyons/light etc... don't fit the bill. See below for more.
>(ASIDE: Total guess work here, with no basis in fact.
>Perhaps the Vorlons are like beings made out of tachyons?
>Sort of like a living viewscreen, with views of the past and future?
I can believe the viewscreen part. I can believe that looking at
a Vorlon can cause one to see the future. This is possibly the same
effect as the time destabilizing effect in B^2.
>Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate in
>the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
>the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'. Maybe Kosh is a historian?
I think Kosh came to B5 to study humanity. He's spent all of
season 1 trying to find out if telepathy is a natural human talent and
if not where did it come from. When Delenn asks him if it's true, he
says "Yes." Meaning that telepahy is NOT natural. My theory is below
because it has "Points" spoilers.
>Again, either way, Joe (who read stuff like Lord of the Rings) says the
>Vorlons are *VERY* *VERY* long lived. Longer than the universe? Maybe they
>really HAVE seen it all before? These are all just loose theories so far.)
I can believe that Vorlons are immortal. "You're not ready for
immortality."
Additional theory based on "Points" below.........
The Gathering:
My theory is that the Minbari warrior caste are siding with the
shadows. They played the Narns for chumps in the pilot movie and they
in turn were played for chumps by the Shadows in the same. The
Shadows are the only ones who should know enough about the Vorlons to
be able to poison one. They send a Minbari warrior to do it. The
Warriors are interested only in hurting the EA but are approached by
the Narns about an alliance. They don't expect it to succeed but as
long as they can implicate Sinclair, the Vorlons won't team with the
humans and may even get rid of them. The Windswords are aware of the
fact that Minbari souls have been going to the humans. This is why
humans are gaining telepathic abilities. The Minbari reincarnations
began about the time telepathy was proven to exist. Maybe a few
telepathic Minbari are born as humans in the 20th century but are
dismissed as quacks. The rate of conversion increases until many
humans are being born as telepaths. Why? The shadows and the Minbari
are ancient enemies. Only telepaths can hurt the shadows. The
shadows transfer Minbari telepathic souls to humans in the hopes that
as long as they control the psi-corps they are pretty much immune to
damage. Kosh is studying telepathy for that very reason. He wants to
know whether the Vorlons will be able to cope with a Shadowmen led
Psi-Corps army of telepaths and just whether or not the Shadows have
actually been creating this army. Perhaps Minbari telepaths were ok,
but when their abilities are transfered to a human, they flourish.
The Centauri's telepathic talents appeared to be limited to seeing the
future and were perhaps a failed attempt at using them as telepathic
hosts. Perhaps ANY manifestation of telepathic talent in a race is a
shadowmen experiment. This would explain why the Narns have no
telepaths. The Vorlons were pretty adamant in the pilot that Sinclair
be turned over to them. They seem to want to study humans and that
would have been the next best thing had Kosh died. This was the
intelligent response that the Vorlons came up with in light of the
Shadowmen plot to start a war.
What do you think?
--
***The third principle of sentient life is the capacity for self-sacrifice***
*** the conscious ability to over-ride evolution and self-preservation for***
*** a cause, a loved one, or a friend. Minbari Teachings-Delenn,Babylon-5 ***
John Benn
>In article <941027164...@mercury.ca.dcu.ie>,
>a4jfinna <a4jf...@compapp.dcu.ie> wrote:
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>>the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
>>the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'.
>
>This has been stated so many times people have come to believe it.
>Unfortunately, it is totally wrong. Kosh was present in the Council chambers
>in "Midnight on the Firing Line".
This is true, but both episodes involved Narn/Centauri aggression.
In both cases, Kosh is worried that the Great War will begin before
he and Delenn are ready.
Aaron Brezenski
John Benn <be...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>In article <38u7fm$k...@news.acns.nwu.edu> ab...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes:
>>In article <941027164...@mercury.ca.dcu.ie>,
>>a4jfinna <a4jf...@compapp.dcu.ie> wrote:
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>>>Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate in
>>>the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to vote) was
>>>the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'.
>>
>>This has been stated so many times people have come to believe it.
>>Unfortunately, it is totally wrong. Kosh was present in the Council chambers
>>in "Midnight on the Firing Line".
>
> This is true, but both episodes involved Narn/Centauri aggression.
> In both cases, Kosh is worried that the Great War will begin before
>he and Delenn are ready.
I was arguing the specific claim (Kosh's eternal absence) not the theory.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
C.M. Yearsley
: Having sucessfully predicted the outcome of the first year of Babylon 5
: *WAY* in advance, the following theoretical information is believed to
: be factual (or pretty damn close) in these areas.
:
:
: Zathras:
: A new species, and obviously the ones with the Time-Travel technology
: not yet available to anyone. (barring possibly the Vorlons) They could
Doesn't it seem more likely that this comes from the devices found
in 'Voice'? We were told repeatedly that they were being held
for the future, until the time was right. JMS must be planning
to bring them back...and he's said he doesn't like keeping viewers
waiting more than a year, so they'll be used in the War. I'd guess
the tremendous power of the installation will be used to recall B4.
--
Chris Yearsley
c...@cs.keele.ac.uk
Frank Mitchell
> In article <CyHCt...@uwindsor.ca>,
> John Benn <be...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
> >In article <38u7fm$k...@news.acns.nwu.edu> ab...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron
Brezenski) writes:
> >>In article <941027164...@mercury.ca.dcu.ie>,
> >>a4jfinna <a4jf...@compapp.dcu.ie> wrote:
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> >>>Either way it seems clear that Kosh is on Babylon5 to observe/participate
> >>>in the GREAT WAR. Note that the ONLY conference he went to (but not to
> >>>vote) was the one about the Sector outpost in 'Chrysalis'.
> >>
> >>This has been stated so many times people have come to believe it.
> >>Unfortunately, it is totally wrong. Kosh was present in the Council
> >>chambers in "Midnight on the Firing Line".
> >
> > This is true, but both episodes involved Narn/Centauri aggression.
> > In both cases, Kosh is worried that the Great War will begin before
> >he and Delenn are ready.
>
> I was arguing the specific claim (Kosh's eternal absence) not the theory.
> Sorry if that wasn't clear.
There is a simpler hypothesis ... Kosh is the Vorlon Ambassador. One of his
(few) duties is to be physically present at Council Meetings (at least some of
them ... was he at the meeting in Deathwalker?). Whether he participates is
another matter ... I wouldn't put it past him just to send a remote-controlled
spare suit.
The obvious way to settle this is to list all the onscreen council meetings
(after the pilot, of course) and note whether Kosh was there.
--
Frank Mitchell
email(work): fr...@fnbc.com (NeXTmail) (home): fr...@gagme.wwa.com
"May Evil beware, and may Good dress warmly and eat plenty of fresh
vegetables." -- The Tick
Glenn M. Saunders
>Vorlons are *VERY* *VERY* long lived. Longer than the universe? Maybe they
>really HAVE seen it all before? These are all just loose theories so far.)
Kosh may serve as a greek chorus of some kind. He knows the story
beforehand and is commenting from his omniscience. Dramatically, this
seeks to heighten the sense of fatalism/destiny whereas had we no
inclination of what was bound to happen, we'd have a more uncertain idea
of the future.
Paul Robert Bartel
Hmmm. Having just re-watched PoD, I like it. I also figured
that human telepaths are the result of Minbari souls being
transferred. Actually, I thought that was a pretty clever idea,
and a good way of explaining why the Minbari surrendered. I
figured jms must have a better explanation than "Sinclair is the
One", which seemed pretty weak. The only thing you don't cover
is what is Delenn changing into? My bet is a human. As Lenier
said, "They say our two races must unite to defeat the coming
evil." Or some such. He also said something about their two
halves reuniting. This might refer to the warrior/religious
castes, but it might also be that the humans are the other half
of the Minbari now, and what better way to unite them than to
have a former Minbari Grey Council member become human? It might
make the integration process easier.
Just speculation that jms will probably blow away,
Paul
John Benn
>> Points spoilers below....
>
>Hmmm. Having just re-watched PoD, I like it. I also figured
>that human telepaths are the result of Minbari souls being
>transferred. Actually, I thought that was a pretty clever idea,
>and a good way of explaining why the Minbari surrendered. I
>figured jms must have a better explanation than "Sinclair is the
>One", which seemed pretty weak. The only thing you don't cover
>is what is Delenn changing into? My bet is a human. As Lenier
>said, "They say our two races must unite to defeat the coming
>evil." Or some such. He also said something about their two
>halves reuniting. This might refer to the warrior/religious
>castes, but it might also be that the humans are the other half
>of the Minbari now, and what better way to unite them than to
>have a former Minbari Grey Council member become human? It might
>make the integration process easier.
>
>Just speculation that jms will probably blow away,
>
>Paul
It's a good theory. What I'm trying to figure out is why the
Shadows don't just run right through everyone. They seem to like
subtlety, but there are probably more practical reasons. I don't
know.