How old is Kosh?
Asbjörn Nejman
Kosh's timeline?".
Valen spoliers below
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If we, just for arguments sake, say that in 2250, Kosh
was a young, 100 year old Vorlon. Then he went 1000 years
back in time with Sinclair who became Valen and then died
of old age in the 1600s. Or something.
But to me it feels like the 1000 (or so) yo Kosh follows
Sinclair to the 1150s to fight the war, then spends the
next 1000 years hiding in the Minbari leaders' ships, then
follows Sinclair 1000 years back in time, then spends some
time with the Minbari, then travels 1000 years back in time...
What do you think?
Asbjorn
Mac Breck
I think Kosh Naranek (and Ulkesh) are both, at the very least, MANY
thousands of years old, with Kosh Naranek being the older of the two. Kosh
and Ulkesh were there, 1000 years in the past with Valen, but they didn't
travel back in time with Sinclair to get there. Kosh and Ulkesh met
Valen/Sinclair first *in* the past. When Sinclair met them in the past, he
already knew Kosh (from his dealings with Kosh in 2258), but neither Kosh or
Ulkesh knew him until their meeting in 1258.
Mac
Christian McNeill
news:014801c0396b$59ad7e00$5b94...@cobweb.net...
> From: "Asbjörn Nejman" <nej...@swipnet.se>
> thousands of years old, with Kosh Naranek being the older of the two.
Kosh
> and Ulkesh were there, 1000 years in the past with Valen, but they didn't
> travel back in time with Sinclair to get there. Kosh and Ulkesh met
> Valen/Sinclair first *in* the past. When Sinclair met them in the past,
he
> already knew Kosh (from his dealings with Kosh in 2258), but neither Kosh
or
> Ulkesh knew him until their meeting in 1258.
I believe that Sinclair met Ulkesh in Mimbar during his time as Ranger One.
I remember reading that in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows"
--
==========================================
Christian McNeill
E-mail: chri...@quicknet.com.au
Web: red.underground.com.au
ICQ: 818458
or 48580607
Mac Breck
From: "Christian McNeill" <chri...@quicknet.com.au>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
> I believe that Sinclair met Ulkesh in Minbar during his time as Ranger
One.
> I remember reading that in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows"
Yes, Sinclair met Ulkesh on Minbar at the end of 2258 or so, but Ulkesh had
already met Sinclair (Valen) in 1258. Sinclair however, didn't have those
memories yet because the 1258 meeting was still in Sinclair's future.
Hence, Ulkesh's comment, "He is the closed circle. He is returning to the
beginning."
Makes sense, but I wonder how many Excedrin JMS popped when he was coming up
with this storyline. :-)
Mac
Dave Woon
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F6rn?= Nejman <nej...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> Or maybe my question should be something like "What is
> Kosh's timeline?".
>
There's no question about Kosh knowing Sinclair as Valen, but
you've overlooked another reference that indicates that Kosh
is far older than 1000 years. When Lorien talks to Sheridan
in the bowels of Z'ha'dum, he mentions that he is aware of
the piece of Kosh in Sheridan and that he had met Kosh. Since
it's not likely that Kosh visited Lorien on Z'ha'dum, the
meeting had to occur in the far distant past, perhaps going
back to when most of the First Ones left millions of years
ago, if not earlier.
There's some reason to think that the Vorlons are immortal.
In the S1 episode "Deathwalker," they blow her ship out of
the sky and Kosh says, "You are not ready for immortality.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris Schumacher
wrote:
>Yes, Sinclair met Ulkesh on Minbar at the end of 2258 or so, but Ulkesh had
>already met Sinclair (Valen) in 1258. Sinclair however, didn't have those
>memories yet because the 1258 meeting was still in Sinclair's future.
>Hence, Ulkesh's comment, "He is the closed circle. He is returning to the
>beginning."
That wasn't Ulkesh. By that time Ulkesh had already been transferred
to B5. That unnamed Vorlon we saw was his replacement, and was
probably the other Vorlon we saw in the past.
-==Kensu==-
Chris Schumacher
-==Kensu==-
Iain Clark
"Chris Schumacher" <ke...@madison.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:39ef38e...@news.tdsnet.com...
Depends. War Without End was shown before Walkabout so it could well have
been Ulkesh on Minbar, and To Dream in the City of Sorrows seems to strongly
imply they were one and the same.
Iain
--
"Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
Mark Maher
<39ef38e...@news.tdsnet.com>...
>On 18 Oct 2000 18:49:09 -0700, "Mac Breck"
<macb...@access995.com>
>wrote:
>>Yes, Sinclair met Ulkesh on Minbar at the end of 2258 or so,
but Ulkesh had
>>already met Sinclair (Valen) in 1258. Sinclair however,
didn't have those
>>memories yet because the 1258 meeting was still in Sinclair's
future.
>>Hence, Ulkesh's comment, "He is the closed circle. He is
returning to the
>>beginning."
>
>That wasn't Ulkesh. By that time Ulkesh had already been
transferred
>to B5. That unnamed Vorlon we saw was his replacement, and was
>probably the other Vorlon we saw in the past.
>
>
Laura M. Appelbaum
> wrote:
> >Yes, Sinclair met Ulkesh on Minbar at the end of 2258 or so, but Ulkesh
had
> >already met Sinclair (Valen) in 1258. Sinclair however, didn't have
those
> >memories yet because the 1258 meeting was still in Sinclair's future.
> >Hence, Ulkesh's comment, "He is the closed circle. He is returning to
the
> >beginning."
>
> That wasn't Ulkesh. By that time Ulkesh had already been transferred
> to B5. That unnamed Vorlon we saw was his replacement, and was
> probably the other Vorlon we saw in the past.
That *was* Ulkesh. jms confirmed it here way back when.
LMA
Asbjörn Nejman
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Mac Breck wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Asbjörn Nejman" <nej...@swipnet.se>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:31 PM
> Subject: How old is Kosh?
>
> > Or maybe my question should be something like "What is
> > Kosh's timeline?".
> >
> > What do you think?
> > Asbjorn
>
> I think Kosh Naranek (and Ulkesh) are both, at the very least, MANY
> thousands of years old, with Kosh Naranek being the older of the two. Kosh
> and Ulkesh were there, 1000 years in the past with Valen, but they didn't
> travel back in time with Sinclair to get there. Kosh and Ulkesh met
> Valen/Sinclair first *in* the past. When Sinclair met them in the past, he
> already knew Kosh (from his dealings with Kosh in 2258), but neither Kosh or
> Ulkesh knew him until their meeting in 1258.
Ah, you mean they did not go back in time WITH him. Actually, coming
to think about it, we only got to see that they were there when the
Minbari came onboard, didn't we.
So they didn't exist twice at the same time from B4s appearance in
the 1250s to it's disappearance in the 2250s. Right?
Asbjorn
Mac Breck
It was Ulkesh. Same voice.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Asbjörn Nejman" <nej...@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Subject: Re: How old is Kosh? <SPOILERS>
Right. Kosh and Ulkesh were already there, in their normal timeline.
They're just really old, probably a LOT older than 1000 years. Think of it
this way, here are the timelines (not to scale) for Kosh, Ulkesh, and
Sinclair/Valen:
Kosh ---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Ulkesh -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
Sinclair/Valen --
--
with the time goes left to right. Sinclair/Valen starts on the right, and
finishes on the left. The gap in the middle is after Valen's death. I've
included that I think Kosh is older than Ulkesh.
> Actually, coming
> to think about it, we only got to see that they were there when the
> Minbari came onboard, didn't we.
Yes. They were never shown on the Whitestar going back, and even if they
were, how did their transports get to 1258? Their transports didn't travel
through the time rift with the Whitestar. When we see Kosh & Ulkesh in the
past (1258), they were living their normal timeline, straight through. They
just live a REALLY long tome.
> So they didn't exist twice at the same time from B4s appearance in
> the 1250s to it's disappearance in the 2250s. Right?
They existed in 1258, and continued to exist straight through to 2260 for
Kosh, and 2261 for Ulkesh.
>
> Asbjorn
>
Douglas
been a long time sonce one of them died.'.
To my mind, this implies a VERY long lifetime.
Wingnut
wrote:
>Lyta does say after Kosh's death in Interludes and Examinations that 'It has
>been a long time sonce one of them died.'.
>To my mind, this implies a VERY long lifetime.
>
>
Yes.
I've always considered Kosh to be about 6000, and Ulkesh to be in the 5000-3000
range.
Wingnut
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Mac Breck
better is you read the whole book from the beginning, but if you want to
jump to the part that's applicable to the question of a more recent death of
a Vorlon, see those pages.
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas" <dou...@msdwindows.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: How old is Kosh? <SPOILERS>
> Lyta does say after Kosh's death in Interludes and Examinations that 'It
has
> been a long time since one of them died.'.
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F6rn?= Nejman <nej...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]
> [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
> [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
>
> Mac Breck wrote:
> >
> > From: "Asbjörn Nejman" <nej...@swipnet.se>
> > Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
> to think about it, we only got to see that they were there when the
> Minbari came onboard, didn't we.
>
> the 1250s to it's disappearance in the 2250s. Right?
>
>
>
You obviously haven't seen Interludes and Examinations. The "good" Kosh
couldn't have SPOILER
He gets killed.
He also recognizes Sincalir at the beginning of The Gathering, though
this in itself doesn't preclude his going back. Being dead, or mostly
so with a small piece in Sheridan, does.
Lisa COulter