"Crusade" DVDs in TNT order

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Chris Adams

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Dec 7, 2004, 11:20:11 PM12/7/04
to
I thought JMS had said that the "Crusade" DVDs would use his episode
order (as used by Sci-Fi). I just picked up my set and they are in the
original TNT order, starting with "War Zone".
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.


Thunder v.2.0.0.4

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Dec 8, 2004, 3:08:53 AM12/8/04
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I don't think he said that... some fans wanted it that way (myself
included) but we were just wishing out loud. I'm also not sure how much
say jms gets on how they order the shows on the disc (he did apparently
get his way on the commentaries though--I look forward to hearing that).

t.k.

Jan

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Dec 8, 2004, 6:55:11 AM12/8/04
to
t.k. wrote:

>(he did apparently
>get his way on the commentaries though--I look forward to hearing that).

I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything really
about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were told at
Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what happened
and then simply edited it out.

Jan

rob.lang...@gmail.com

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Dec 8, 2004, 10:41:54 AM12/8/04
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What actors and other production people were on the commentaries and
for what episodes? Were any of the commentaries interesting enough to
justify buying the
set? (I have a friend who might be interested.) Lastly, are you
certain you
listened to everything? Considering who adamant JMS was about being
able to put the full story about what happened to the show on the DVDs,
I'm a bit shocked that he did not give himself a final approval clause
(since he's the creator of the show, doesn't he have the right to do
that and hasn't he indicated something like that about any merchandise
conducted with it?). At least now the whole franchise is out there,
apart from the movie that aired on the Sci-Fi Channel.
Best.
Rob

Amy Guskin

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Dec 8, 2004, 1:26:23 PM12/8/04
to
>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:41:54 -0500, rob.lang...@gmail.com wrote
(in article <1102514542.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>):

> Lastly, are you certain you listened to everything?<<

You obviously do not know Jan. :-)

--
http://www.zongoftheweek.com
Free and legal downloads of fun, original songs
This week's zong: "What I Ate on my Christmas Vacation"
This week's on Kids' Zong: A Big Sack of Christmas Zongs

Thunder v.2.0.0.4

unread,
Dec 8, 2004, 3:18:29 PM12/8/04
to
I don't have the set yet but I was really hoping that was going to be on
there somewhere...

t.k.

Jms at B5

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Dec 10, 2004, 5:10:05 AM12/10/04
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>I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything
>really
>about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were told at
>Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what happened
>and then simply edited it out.

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the local
store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the very start
of my commentary.

Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened. If
you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't want to
have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.

So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.

In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview.

This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem. At no time
did ANYONE from WB or New Wave Entertainment tell me that this was being done.

Doing these DVDs was the only way I had to date to get the bad taste of that
experience out of my mouth, the sheer dishonesty and rudeness of it all.

So much for that goal.

The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very quiet,
soft spoken kind of guy.

But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the same
time.

Furious.

You have no idea.


jms

(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)


Jeffrey Gustafson

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:02:04 AM12/10/04
to
> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a
very quiet,
> soft spoken kind of guy.
>
> But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at
the same
> time.
>
> Furious.
>
> You have no idea.

Do you have a transcript of the original that you can send out to
whomever will take it (Cinescape, SciFiWire), or better yet (though
unlikely), the audio?


Jan

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:17:57 AM12/10/04
to
JMS wrote:

>Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
>commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened. If
>you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't want
>to
>have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.
>
>So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.
>

Forgiveness being easier to get than permission?

It would appear that, even after all this time they don't know better than to
screw around with you, your words and your work.

Depressing. Is there anything you can do about it for the future? Obviously
they're not going to admit an error and recall the DVDs.

Jan

Wendy of NJ

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Dec 10, 2004, 8:23:19 AM12/10/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:10:05 +0000 (UTC), jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
wrote:

Would it help if you unburdened yourself here, to us? Tell us what you
said on the commentary that got excized?

I would like to say that I'm shocked by WB/NewWave's behavior, but I'm
not. I'm really saddened, but not surprised.

-Wendy of NJ

Matt Ion

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:19:49 AM12/10/04
to
Jms at B5 wrote:

> This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
> didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem.

Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I wonder if WB
would get the message if EVERYONE returned their DVD sets as
"defective"... and then returned the replacement sets... and the
subsequent replacement sets... until they ended up having to give
everyone refunds and managed to sell only three or four copies?

Matt Ion

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:31:42 AM12/10/04
to
Jms at B5 wrote:

> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very quiet,
> soft spoken kind of guy.
>
> But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the same
> time.

You know, if I was the WB exec responsible, I'd be applying to the
Witness Protection Program right about now... changing my name and
moving to someplace safe, like Mosul, Iraq.

Joe, any chance this agreement was in writing or otherwise recorded
somewhere? I know a legal tiff of this sort with your "parent"
organization at this stage in TMoS's production is not really a good
idea, but you know, for future reference...

Then again, I shudder to think of some of the not-quite-above-the-board
responses such a creative mind could conjure up, given time to stew and
simmer...

Oron Port

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:51:19 AM12/10/04
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I really hate this. I was thinking of making this DVD set the first one
of the series I purchase, and mostly because of that commentary. Now I'm
not so sure.

Oron

David Williams

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Dec 10, 2004, 10:53:28 AM12/10/04
to

"Matt Ion" <sou...@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:wdiud.453361$Pl.1489@pd7tw1no...

> Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I wonder if WB would
> get the message......

No.

-David W.


Jeffrey Kaplan

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Dec 10, 2004, 12:13:39 PM12/10/04
to
Begin Jan quote:

; >So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.

; >
;
; Forgiveness being easier to get than permission?
;
; It would appear that, even after all this time they don't know better than to
; screw around with you, your words and your work.
;
; Depressing. Is there anything you can do about it for the future? Obviously
; they're not going to admit an error and recall the DVDs.

Assuming accuracy of events reported, it was no error, it was done on
purpose.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

"Can we wound him? Just a little?" (Cmdr. Ivanova, B5 "Dust to Dust")

Jeffrey Kaplan

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Dec 10, 2004, 12:14:54 PM12/10/04
to
Begin Jms at B5 quote:

; Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the


; commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened. If
; you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't want to
; have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.
;
; So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.

So... what are you going to do about it? Along with most people here,
I'd like to hear what you had/have to say about the Crusade situation.

Thunder v.2.0.0.4

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Dec 10, 2004, 12:34:54 PM12/10/04
to
Jms at B5 wrote:
<snip>

If that's the case, if/when they come to you for the Rangers commentary,
I'd tell them very plainly where to shove it... And maybe even opt out
of future commentaries since it's clear the studio doesn't really want
to hear what you have to say about the show anyway.

t.k.

Mac Breck

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Dec 10, 2004, 12:52:11 PM12/10/04
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"Matt Ion" <sou...@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:wdiud.453361$Pl.1489@pd7tw1no...


No, and that would probably be a black mark against Crusade,
itself. The corporate suits probably have rat brains.

--
Mac Breck (KoshN) - from the desktop PC
-------------------------------
"Babylon 5: Crusade" (1999)
Gideon: I thought you said you don't hold a grudge.
Galen: I don't. I have no surviving enemies... at all.

"Brimstone" (1998)
The Devil: Nobody beats the Devil. Are you listening? Did
you hear what I said, Mr. Stone? Nobody beats the Devil.
Ezekiel Stone: So you keep telling me. <enjoying his Reggie
Bar> Go to Hell...<smiles and pushes the Down button on the
elevator> ...please.

Mac Breck

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Dec 10, 2004, 1:21:24 PM12/10/04
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"Oron Port" <zora...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:41b9b7ee$1...@news.bezeqint.net...

> Jms at B5 wrote:
> >>I've listened to the commenary and features but I
haven't heard anything
> >>really
> >>about what happened. Certainly not anything like the
story we were told at
> >>Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk
about what happened
> >>and then simply edited it out.
> >
> >
> > Yes, that's exactly what happened.

<big snip of the details>


> I really hate this. I was thinking of making this DVD set
the first one
> of the series I purchase, and mostly because of that
commentary. Now I'm
> not so sure.

It's STILL worth buying. It's be worth buying even if it
was a no-frills release, having only the 13 episodes minus
popups and voiceover ads./squished credits.

John W. Kennedy

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Dec 10, 2004, 3:05:04 PM12/10/04
to
So this leaves the question -- what do /we/ do?

The suggestion has already been made of successively buying copies and
returning them as "defective".

Or we can just not buy them at all.

Or we can wait for your directions.

(While you're ripping the suits new navels, be sure to remind them how
you just spent considerable time explaining to fans that it's wrong to
fileshare /because it cheats the artists/.)

--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004).

Mac Breck

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Dec 10, 2004, 3:28:29 PM12/10/04
to
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041210050809...@mb-m02.aol.com...

> >I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't
heard anything
> >really
> >about what happened. Certainly not anything like the
story we were told at
> >Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk
about what happened
> >and then simply edited it out.
>
> Yes, that's exactly what happened.

The expletive "rat bastards" seems appropriate.

Amy Guskin

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Dec 10, 2004, 4:59:17 PM12/10/04
to
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:24 -0500, Mac Breck wrote
(in article <31u623F...@individual.net>):

> "Oron Port" <zora...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:41b9b7ee$1...@news.bezeqint.net...
>> Jms at B5 wrote:
>>>> I've listened to the commenary and features but I
> haven't heard anything
>>>> really
>>>> about what happened. Certainly not anything like the
> story we were told at
>>>> Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk
> about what happened
>>>> and then simply edited it out.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that's exactly what happened.
>
> <big snip of the details>
>
>
>> I really hate this. I was thinking of making this DVD set
> the first one
>> of the series I purchase, and mostly because of that
> commentary. Now I'm
>> not so sure.
>
> It's STILL worth buying. It's be worth buying even if it
> was a no-frills release, having only the 13 episodes minus
> popups and voiceover ads./squished credits.<<

I agree. And, I also agree with you that it would probably only reflect
badly on the show itself if we were all to return our sets. Not the right
message to send to a studio we still hope will produce a B5 film.

Amy

Amy Guskin

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Dec 10, 2004, 5:15:36 PM12/10/04
to
I'm hijacking this thread because this matter hasn't yet appeared here in the
ng, and it needs to - and so many people are reading this thread so it seems
like the best place.

A rumor has floated to the surface, verified by a few people with industry
contacts (myself included), that WB is seriously considering recasting the
original roles for B5:TMoS. This is, of course, a DISASTER. I am trying to
think of the most horrible scenario, and it usually comes out as "...and
Jennifer Love Hewitt as Delenn."

I'm sure the feeling is that tv actors aren't big enough names. Or that they
want young, pretty, unskilled actors in the roles because they think they're
easier on the eyes. But I hasten to remind any WB suits reading this that if
we were to follow the model of Star Trek, using the tv cast in the first
feature film - and all subsequent ones - didn't seem to hurt the franchise at
all! And, I also want to point out that Viggo Mortensen wasn't anything like
a "name" before the first Lord of the Rings film.

I believe I speak for all of us when I say that, to a one, we do NOT want
recasts in the roles of our beloved characters.

I'm usually the first one to turn a jaundiced eye when someone suggests a
writing campaign. But I have heard the call, and I believe that NOW is the
time. The film hasn't even been officially announced yet, so casting is
certainly not yet set - NOW we need to make as much noise as possible, to
show the WB that this is something that will not go over well at ALL with the
fanbase. And if you think that the fanbase is not a statistically
significant percentage of the audience for this project, I remind you that
the main reason we are getting a movie at all is the astonishing DVD sales
figures. Sales figures that were so astonishing courtesy of you and I, and
every other fan who scraped together hard-earned money to buy each set the
moment it became available.

I don't even know who to write to at the WB, but the main address is:

Warner Bros. Films
4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, CA 91522

I suppose that if you put "Babylon 5: The Memory of Shadows" in the second
line of the address, it will find its way to the correct production office on
the lot.

Also, there is the "official" Babylon 5 site owned by Warner Bros. They have
a message board. Register, log in, and POST! I think it's likely that
someone there pays some kind of attention to what's being said on those
boards. You can register here:

http://boards3.warnerbros.com/wbol/forum.jspa?forumID=2574423

Folks, I wouldn't be sounding the alarm if I hadn't checked out this
information myself - I was concerned enough that I called in a few long-owed
favors from old colleagues, and so I can assure you that this rumor is
well-founded. And, it seems to me that things must be getting very close to
being set in stone - if production is indeed to begin in April, contracts
will have to be signed soon. And I for one do not want to see Freddie Prinze
Jr.'s name on the bottom of a contract that says "G'Kar"!
AAAAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

So please, if you want to see the B5 film we have ALL been waiting for, some
less patiently than others, please, please take the time to drop the WB a
line about this, and post on all the message boards and newsgroups you can.
MAKE NOISE. Now is the time. If we don't make noise and we get a film full
of young, pretty faces who AREN'T Mira, Andreas, Bruce, Peter, Peter, etc.,
we'll be kicking ourselves for a loooong time. At least if we do make the
effort, we'll know we did all we could.

P.S. to JMS: is there any way you can point us to the right party at WB
without getting yourself into too much trouble?

Jms at B5

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:07:13 PM12/10/04
to
>Do you have a transcript of the original that you can send out to
>whomever will take it (Cinescape, SciFiWire), or better yet (though
>unlikely), the audio?
>
>

No, though it's mainly what I've said online, I just wanted it to be available
to a wider audience, all in one place.

Oron Port

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:31:53 PM12/10/04
to
I will not accept any recasting! Not for the late Richard Biggs, and not
for any character! EITHER MAKE IT WITH THE ORIGINAL CAST OR DON'T MAKE
IT AT ALL!!!

Oron

Matthew Vincent

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:31:45 PM12/10/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:23:19 +0000 (UTC), Wendy of NJ
<voxw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I would like to say that I'm shocked by WB/NewWave's behavior,
>but I'm not. I'm really saddened, but not surprised.

Ditto. They're a corporation.

Matthew

Mac Breck

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Dec 10, 2004, 6:53:03 PM12/10/04
to
"Amy Guskin" <ais...@fjordstone.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BDDF8A46...@news.verizon.net...

> I'm hijacking this thread because this matter hasn't yet
appeared here in the
> ng, and it needs to - and so many people are reading this
thread so it seems
> like the best place.
>
> A rumor has floated to the surface, verified by a few
people with industry
> contacts (myself included), that WB is seriously
considering recasting the
> original roles for B5:TMoS. This is, of course, a
DISASTER.

[Galen] "As I said, ..." [/Galen] ...referring to
previous expletive. <devil grin>

One can almost imagine the nefarious, shadowy hands of TNT
working behind the scenes to quell any attempt at
resurrection.

Jeffrey Gustafson

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Dec 10, 2004, 7:46:58 PM12/10/04
to
> Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I wonder if WB
> would get the message if EVERYONE returned their DVD sets as
> "defective"... and then returned the replacement sets... and the
> subsequent replacement sets... until they ended up having to give
> everyone refunds and managed to sell only three or four copies?

The problem is that most folks buying the DVD would not know it was
"defective."


Wesley Struebing

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Dec 10, 2004, 7:55:37 PM12/10/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:10:05 +0000 (UTC), jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
wrote:

>>I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything

Permit me to AOL...

That was, err, despicable. At a minimum.

--

Wes Struebing

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.

Jan

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Dec 10, 2004, 8:16:15 PM12/10/04
to
JMS wrote:

>So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.
>
>In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview.

I can tell now exactly where the change happened. In fact, I'd wondered why
there was no introduction as there had been on the other sets. What they
exchanged for you commentary is what probably would have been the introduction.

Grrrrrr

Jan

Paul Harper

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:20:36 PM12/10/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:10:05 +0000 (UTC), jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
wrote:

>Furious.
>
>You have no idea.

So tell it here, Joe. They broke the contract - not a problem on your
part.

Tell it here, FFS.

Paul.

--
. A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
. JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.
Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long."
. EMail: Unless invited to, don't. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

Hauke Kruppa

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Dec 10, 2004, 10:09:16 PM12/10/04
to
Hi,

Jms at B5 wrote:

> No, though it's mainly what I've said online, I just wanted it to be available
> to a wider audience, all in one place.

Link, anyone? I don't know what you said online about crusade and would
like to know :)

To sad they didn't air Crusade in Germany at all.

Btw: Will Crusade be made available on DVD in Europe or would it be
wiser to order the series from amazon.com? Googled for that information,
but didn't find an answer.

Hauke

Thunder v.2.0.0.4

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 12:29:57 AM12/11/04
to
The suits can do as they please--recast everyone. Hell, even get rid of
jms and get some incompetent boob to write it.

They can do that if they want. But I *won't* bother *ever* seeing
it--and I think many will do the same.

t.k.

Matthew Vincent

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 12:55:14 AM12/11/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:10:05 +0000 (UTC), jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
wrote:

>>I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything


>>really
>>about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were told at
>>Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what happened
>>and then simply edited it out.
>
>Yes, that's exactly what happened.
>
>I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the local
>store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the very start
>of my commentary.
>
>Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
>commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened. If
>you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't want to
>have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.
>

>So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.
>
>In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview.
>

>This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
>didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem. At no time
>did ANYONE from WB or New Wave Entertainment tell me that this was being done.
>
>Doing these DVDs was the only way I had to date to get the bad taste of that
>experience out of my mouth, the sheer dishonesty and rudeness of it all.
>
>So much for that goal.
>
>The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very quiet,
>soft spoken kind of guy.
>
>But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the same
>time.
>

>Furious.
>
>You have no idea.

I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened. One corporation screws
you over, then another corporation covers it up. I suspect that their
interest is in maintaining their strangehold.

Matthew

Zarggg

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Dec 11, 2004, 2:30:14 AM12/11/04
to

We (and fans who don't come here) want to hear it, though! >:(
--
Zarggg
KeyID: 0x2FAAE151
<http://www.zarggg.net/blog>
See <http://www.zarggg.net/contact.html> for contact information.

Mac Breck

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Dec 11, 2004, 4:25:17 AM12/11/04
to
"Hauke Kruppa" <nosp...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:41ba4329$0$29842$9b4e...@newsread2.arcor-online.net...

> Hi,
>
> Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> > No, though it's mainly what I've said online, I just
wanted it to be available
> > to a wider audience, all in one place.
>
> Link, anyone?

Here are a couple of relevant links:

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17127

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-160

Jo'Asia

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Dec 11, 2004, 5:47:04 AM12/11/04
to
Hauke Kruppa wrote:

> To sad they didn't air Crusade in Germany at all.

> Btw: Will Crusade be made available on DVD in Europe or would it be
> wiser to order the series from amazon.com? Googled for that information,
> but didn't find an answer.

My guess is that they will announce it after release of Season 5
(January).

Jo'Asia

--
__.-=-. -< Joanna Slupek >----------------------< http://esensja.pl/ >-
--<()> -< joasia @ hell . pl >------< http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ >-
.__.'| -< "So how did you find out about all this?"
"I'm a telepath. Work it out." {B5, Sheridan&Bester} >-

deel...@gmail.com

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:24:04 AM12/11/04
to
[ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]

[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]

[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]

Please, Joe, tell us all. And while you're at it, you could tell us
about the TMoS that YOU want to make. You had to rewrite after Richard
Biggs unfortunate passing, so if you were to say, tell us a little
about the ORIGINAL TMoS ideas... Warner is screwing with you on the
Crusade DVD commentary AND rumored to be doing the same with TMoS
casting. It wouldn't be like you were actually telling us about the
'real' project.

I think the B5 fans are out there in larger numbers than the studio
#$%@-heads know. Sure a few thousand of us interact on the net, but
there are a LOT more fans that have never been to a fan-related site -
mature fans, young just-saw-it-on DVD's, even my dad, who started
watching B5 while recovering from his knee replacement (He's 76, but
PLANNED for retirement and DOES have disposable income)

Hey, that sounds like the same group that watches 'LOST'. And didn't
that show get a big boost by all the INTERNET BUZZ way before the show
started? I wouldn't have watched it if I hadn't heard such good things
on several websites. I mean, it sounded like the soap opera love child
of 'SURVIVOR' and 'GILLIGANS ISLAND,' for pete's sake! When I forgot to
watch it that Wednesday night, I shrugged. But my parents (remember -
70's, respectable, church-going, bird-watching, RV-ers with disposable
income?) told me I HAD to watch this show. Lucky for me, ABC was
'encoring' the premiere episode Saturday night, so I watched - AND I
HAVEN'T MISSED AN EPISODE YET! Not only do I watch it when broadcast, I
tape it for re-watching, and I DON'T have Tivo, so that means WITH
commercials, that even if I FF through the ads, I still see a speeded
up version which probably has a greater effect on me subliminally than
if I watched consciously. But I digress. I've also converted several
colleagues at the office - and my daughter in college, who is busy
converting HER friends. My daughter, BTW was raised on B5, and worships
at the altar of Galen.

And, now that I think about it, I heard a lot of buzz about 'DESPERATE
HOUSEWIVES' too. I would have never watched a show that, to all
appearances from pre-premiere ads, was just another trashy prime-time
soap opera. I watch it now, though. So do several million over people.

Hmmm... I bet the ABC brass has a healthy respect for internet buzz.
After all, they went from mediocre to
finger-on-the-pulse-of-the-demographics geniuses in one season.

Warner Brothers didn't keep THEIR promise to you about the Crusade
commentary. Maybe they need a little demonstration. Once they see the
buzz, here and elsewhere, they'd have to be crazy to screw it up!

jc

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:25:24 AM12/11/04
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Changing the original cast is unacceptable. That is all I want to say
at this time. I feel depressed.
JC

The Cardassian Scot

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:29:00 AM12/11/04
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Jms at B5 wrote:
> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a
very quiet,
> soft spoken kind of guy.
>
> But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at
the same
> time.
>
> Furious.
>
> You have no idea.

Anything we as the fans can do? I assume it's better for us to buy the
box sets (I'm in the UK, it's not out here yet) than to boycott them.
I'm sure "they" would just assume it wasn't being bought because we
didn't want it, rather than because of their dishonesty.

DevilsPGD

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:29:51 AM12/11/04
to
In message <wdiud.453361$Pl.1489@pd7tw1no> Matt Ion
<sou...@moltenimage.com> wrote:

>> This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
>> didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem.
>

>Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I wonder if WB
>would get the message if EVERYONE returned their DVD sets as
>"defective"... and then returned the replacement sets... and the
>subsequent replacement sets... until they ended up having to give
>everyone refunds and managed to sell only three or four copies?

It's not a bad idea, but how many people would actually get the message?
And of those, how many would bother to return their DVDs?


--
If stupidity persists, consult your psychiatrist.


Gunnar Ren ie

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:30:31 AM12/11/04
to
Ah, the corporate legal department. Cover your ***.

Jms at B5 wrote:

> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very
> quiet, soft spoken kind of guy.

Be even more soft spoken then, so soft spoken as to be mute on any
commentaries for any of their DVDs -- if your contracts allow -- until they
release the full version.
Perhaps WB UK might include it?

Craig Riekena

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:30:01 AM12/11/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:10:05 +0000 (UTC), jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
wrote:

>I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the local


>store, and went to the commentary.

Huh? Even >you< have to BUY the set. Don't you at least get a
complimentary copy. I mean you were kinda involved in it!!???

Craig


Gunnar Ren ie

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:33:53 AM12/11/04
to
Matt Ion wrote:

> Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I wonder if WB
> would get the message if EVERYONE returned their DVD sets as
> "defective"... and then returned the replacement sets... and the
> subsequent replacement sets... until they ended up having to give
> everyone refunds and managed to sell only three or four copies?

A more "civil" solution could be checking out the returns policy of the
store where you bought it. They may have a money back guarantee, or give
you a voucher for later use.

But it's hard to return an opened set that way.

If returning it opened, you'd have to return it stating that you think
you've been given less of a product than you could reasonably expect. The
only concrete you have is that part of the commentary was exchanged with
parts of the interview. JMS's talk about telling the story as it is, while
honest by him, is not binding on WB vis-a-vis you.

JMS, on the other hand, may have a strong case here.


Svetislav Soldat

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:33:42 AM12/11/04
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> Depressing. Is there anything you can do about it for the future?
> Obviously
> they're not going to admit an error and recall the DVDs.
>
> Jan

I guess noone at WB would admitt that they basicly had lied to Joe. But I do
hope that the truth will come out one way or another.

Joe, will there ever be a conversation between you and WB about this
"faux-pas"?


Kerr

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:32:51 AM12/11/04
to
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041210050809...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> >I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything
>>really
>>about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were told
>>at
>>Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what
>>happened
>>and then simply edited it out.
>
> Yes, that's exactly what happened.
>
> I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the
> local
> store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the very
> start
> of my commentary.
>
> Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
> commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened.
> If
> you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't
> want to
> have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.

You honestly expected them to leave in such a critical and embarrassing or
damaging commentary from you? I know you aren't that naive. It's business.


Rick

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:33:32 AM12/11/04
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JMS:

What legal remedies are available to you? If you have them, I think you
should at least seriously consider using them.

If you have the option, I'd seriously consider making WB recall the
DVDS (at their expense; or that of New Wave Entertainment, depending on
who approved the decision to excise that part of your commentary) and
replace them with copies with your complete commentary (or without any
commentary, as you originally offered).

I have not seen a single frame of Crusade, having gotten rid of cable
after B5 ended (and that was the only reason I got cable in the first
place). However, based on your track record with B5, I was giving
serious thought to buying the Crusade DVD, despite never having seen
the series.

Now, I'm going to have to reconsider that, given the bait and switch
somebody pulled on you. To buy the set might seem to give tacit
approval to that action.

Rick

Jms at B5 wrote:
> >I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard
anything
> >really
> >about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were
told at
> >Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what
happened
> >and then simply edited it out.
>
> Yes, that's exactly what happened.
>
> I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the
local
> store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the
very start
> of my commentary.
>
> Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do
the
> commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really
happened. If
> you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you
don't want to
> have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody
agreed.
>

> So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.
>
> In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview.
>

> This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being
busy I

> didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem. At
no time
> did ANYONE from WB or New Wave Entertainment tell me that this was
being done.
>
> Doing these DVDs was the only way I had to date to get the bad taste
of that
> experience out of my mouth, the sheer dishonesty and rudeness of it
all.
>
> So much for that goal.
>

> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a
very quiet,
> soft spoken kind of guy.
>

> But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at
the same
> time.
>
> Furious.
>
> You have no idea.
>
>

> jms

John Duncan Yoyo

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 11:35:04 AM12/11/04
to
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:52:11 +0000 (UTC), "Mac Breck"
<macthe...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
>No, and that would probably be a black mark against Crusade,
>itself. The corporate suits probably have rat brains.

That's an insult to rats. Planeria brains maybe.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.


Brett Greenleaf

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:36:04 AM12/11/04
to
> I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the local
> store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the very start
> of my commentary.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> (all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
> permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
> and don't send me story ideas)
>
Am I the only one that finds it odd that the CREATOR of the show
apparently had to purchase the DVD set? That just doesn't seem right.

Or am I missing an obvious joke here?

BRETT


phil giglio

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:37:56 AM12/11/04
to

"Matt Ion" <sou...@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:mqiud.476886$%k.159432@pd7tw2no...

> Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> > The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very
quiet,
> > soft spoken kind of guy.
> >
> > But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the
same
> > time.
>
> You know, if I was the WB exec responsible, I'd be applying to the
> Witness Protection Program right about now... changing my name and
> moving to someplace safe, like Mosul, Iraq.
>
> Joe, any chance this agreement was in writing or otherwise recorded
> somewhere? I know a legal tiff of this sort with your "parent"
> organization at this stage in TMoS's production is not really a good
> idea, but you know, for future reference...
>
> Then again, I shudder to think of some of the not-quite-above-the-board
> responses such a creative mind could conjure up, given time to stew and
> simmer...
>

I'm reminded of John's comment to Bester about Garabaldi


phil giglio

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:37:45 AM12/11/04
to

"Mac Breck" <macthe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:31u61vF...@individual.net...

> "Matt Ion" <sou...@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:wdiud.453361$Pl.1489@pd7tw1no...

> > Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > > This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval,
> which being busy I
> > > didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a
> problem.
> >
> > Well, apparently there IS a problem with that DVD... I
> wonder if WB
> > would get the message if EVERYONE returned their DVD sets
> as
> > "defective"... and then returned the replacement sets...
> and the
> > subsequent replacement sets... until they ended up having
> to give
> > everyone refunds and managed to sell only three or four
> copies?
>
>
> No, and that would probably be a black mark against Crusade,
> itself. The corporate suits probably have rat brains.
>

more like earth worms

Amy Guskin

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 2:39:16 PM12/11/04
to
>>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:24:04 -0500, deel...@gmail.com wrote
(in article <1102735214.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>):

> [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]
>
> [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
>
> [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
>
> Please, Joe, tell us all. And while you're at it, you could tell us
> about the TMoS that YOU want to make. You had to rewrite after Richard
> Biggs unfortunate passing, so if you were to say, tell us a little
> about the ORIGINAL TMoS ideas... Warner is screwing with you on the
> Crusade DVD commentary AND rumored to be doing the same with TMoS
> casting. It wouldn't be like you were actually telling us about the
> 'real' project.<<

It isn't likely that JMS had to change much regarding the meat of the story
after Richard Biggs' death; it's much more likely that it was simply a matter
of changing scenes, changing who delivered what lines of exposition to whom,
and other not-so-integral pieces. I'm betting that the basic plot has _not_
changed that much, in which case, JMS will not be able to tell us anything.

Amy

--
http://www.zongoftheweek.com
Free and legal downloads of fun, original songs
This week's zong: "What I Ate on my Christmas Vacation"
This week's on Kids' Zong: A Big Sack of Christmas Zongs

Amy Guskin

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Dec 11, 2004, 3:13:24 PM12/11/04
to
>>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:33:32 -0500, Rick wrote
(in article <1102692359.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>):

> [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]
>
> [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
>
> [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
>
> JMS:
>
> What legal remedies are available to you? If you have them, I think you
> should at least seriously consider using them.
>
> If you have the option, I'd seriously consider making WB recall the
> DVDS (at their expense; <<

While I certainly agree that what WB did was egregious, what some of you are
forgetting is that JMS is currently in a critical stage of working out the
final details of a feature film with WB. You have to pick your battles.

Kerr

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 4:36:31 PM12/11/04
to
"Matthew Vincent" <mbvi...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:41ba8a04...@news.paradise.net.nz...

> I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened. One corporation screws
> you over, then another corporation covers it up. I suspect that their
> interest is in maintaining their strangehold.

Can anyone actually cite a legal precedent in which a corporation is legally
obligated to publish something that is extremely critical, insulting, or
potentially libelous regarding their own corporation?

Anyone?

Robert

unread,
Dec 11, 2004, 4:37:22 PM12/11/04
to
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote :

> Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
> commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened.
> If you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you

> don't want to
> have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.
> So I started it up...listened...and it was gone.
> In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview.
>

> This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I

> didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem. At no
> time
> did ANYONE from WB or New Wave Entertainment tell me that this was being
> done.
>
> Doing these DVDs was the only way I had to date to get the bad taste of
> that
> experience out of my mouth, the sheer dishonesty and rudeness of it all.
> So much for that goal.

> The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very
> quiet,
> soft spoken kind of guy.
> But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the
> same
> time.

> Furious. You have no idea.


Couldn't this be construed as a breach of contract, and something that you
could theoretically sue them for? I am not saying that you should actully
sue them, but you could use the threat of such a measure to stregthen your
position in current and future negotiations for any guven project. Warner
Brothers has absolutely no right to violate this contract with you, and they
shouldn't be let off scot free.

Other writers and directors should be made aware of this unethical practice;
I hope you write a letter about this issue to appear in some trade
publications.


Robert Kaiser


Mac Breck

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Dec 11, 2004, 4:37:42 PM12/11/04
to
"John Duncan Yoyo" <john-dun...@cox.net> wrote in
message news:ctpjr0tvfibh1g142...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:52:11 +0000 (UTC), "Mac Breck"
> <macthe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >No, and that would probably be a black mark against
Crusade,
> >itself. The corporate suits probably have rat brains.
>
> That's an insult to rats. Planeria brains maybe.

How about Abby Normal rat brains?

Mac Breck

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Dec 11, 2004, 4:37:52 PM12/11/04
to
"phil giglio" <stew...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:qssud.72$z6...@fe61.usenetserver.com...


I'm reminded of Darren McGaven fixing the furnace in "A
Christmas Story" as smoke and soot eminate from the
kitchen-to-basement door....

http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0085334/quotes
Ralphie: "In the heat of battle my father wove a tapestry of
obscenities that as far as we know is still hanging in space
over Lake Michigan."

Mac Breck

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:35:38 PM12/11/04
to
"Kerr" <Ker...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sMadnciGjdW...@comcast.com...

Remember, much has been made of the fact that the various
pieces of Warner Brothers act not in cooperation, but in
competition with each other? So now, suddenly they're all
one big entity?

Gunnar Ren ie

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:36:28 PM12/11/04
to
Zarggg wrote:

> On 10 Dec 04 12:34, Thunder v.2.0.0.4 wrote:
>
>> If that's the case, if/when they come to you for the Rangers
>> commentary, I'd tell them very plainly where to shove it... And
>> maybe even opt out of future commentaries since it's clear the studio
>> doesn't really want to hear what you have to say about the show
>> anyway.
>>
>> t.k.
>
> We (and fans who don't come here) want to hear it, though! >:(

Ok, then. Release commentaries online as MP3 files. People can download them
and play them over the DVD.

Might have to make sure that none of the audio from the show gets on the MP3
file, though. For legal reasons.


Mac Breck

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:35:48 PM12/11/04
to
"Robert" <mrkai...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:OgHud.1074688$Gx4.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

If it was written? If he had witnesses who'd back him up?

I have a feeling that this wasn't in writing.


> ...and something that you


> could theoretically sue them for? I am not saying that you
should actully
> sue them, but you could use the threat of such a measure
to stregthen your
> position in current and future negotiations for any guven
project. Warner
> Brothers has absolutely no right to violate this contract
with you, and they
> shouldn't be let off scot free.

At a time that he's trying to get/keep their support for
B5:TMoS? They could be holding that over his head. That
could be why they felt they could delete the stuff from the
Crusade DVD set..

Hauke Kruppa

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:39:32 PM12/11/04
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Jo'Asia wrote:

> My guess is that they will announce it after release of Season 5
> (January).

?! Season 5 is out (Europe), I finished watching my set last week. What
do you mean?

Greetings

Hauke


Robert

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:39:42 PM12/11/04
to
"Kerr" <Ker...@comcast.net> wrote :

> Can anyone actually cite a legal precedent in which a corporation is
> legally obligated to publish something that is extremely critical,
> insulting, or potentially libelous regarding their own corporation?


A corporation is legally obligated to publish whatever they signed a
contract to publish. If someone makes a contract with Ray Bradbury to
publish one of his books...and then the book is found to have been censored
and/or otherwise changed by the publisher without the author's permission,
the author may sue.

The only question here is whether or not Warner Brother's promise to JMS
about including his commentary on the "Crusade" DVDs was in a form that was
legally binding. If so then JMS may choose to take legal action - or ask
them to redress the issue in some other way that would be mutually
acceptable to both parties. He can even choose to ignore the issue if he
believes that this would serve a greater good.


Robert Kaiser

Hauke Kruppa

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:39:42 PM12/11/04
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Mac Breck wrote On 11.12.2004 10:25:

> Here are a couple of relevant links:
>
> http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17127
>
> http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-160

Thanks. Very nice. I don't know tnt, but I think I prefer not to like
them :)

Hauke


Gunnar Ren ie

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Dec 11, 2004, 11:40:02 PM12/11/04
to
Oron Port wrote:

> I will not accept any recasting! Not for the late Richard Biggs, and not
> for any character! EITHER MAKE IT WITH THE ORIGINAL CAST OR DON'T MAKE
> IT AT ALL!!!

New roles may be given to new cast members though. Naturally.
Wouldn't want to see the original cast having to play all the roles
themselves. Well, it could work with good makeup ;-) Eddie Murphy played a
lot of the roles in The Nutty Professor, and Back to the Future had several
actors playing more than one role.

Thunder v.2.0.0.4

unread,
Dec 12, 2004, 2:44:13 AM12/12/04
to
That's the one flaw with my idea... but I don't see any other way he
could make his point of view known to the studio.

t.k.

Jo'Asia

unread,
Dec 12, 2004, 11:42:06 AM12/12/04
to
Hauke Kruppa wrote:

Erm... Damn them!

For a long time there were no S5 on