Babylon 5 Viewing in Tucson AZ USA
Cheryl Martin
Jay and I have taken into our heads that we want to rewatch Babylon 5
(again). So, we decided to host a monthly viewing party. Starting
today Feb 7 at our home.
I thought I'd post here in case there were any locals lurking about.
We live on the SE side of town near Pima Air & Space. Email me for
details!
Cheryl
--
*Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
*http://www.grumpywitch.org http://dragonnette.livejournal.com *
*I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. *
*We stand between the darkness and the light. ---JMS *
Kathryn Huxtable
> Jay and I have taken into our heads that we want to rewatch Babylon 5
> (again). So, we decided to host a monthly viewing party. Starting
> today Feb 7 at our home.
>
> I thought I'd post here in case there were any locals lurking about.
>
> We live on the SE side of town near Pima Air & Space. Email me for
> details!
Wow! I had exactly the same idea, but I live in the Kansas City area,
as well Jay and Cheryl know. But I have no spare time in the evenings,
so I'll have to watch it by myself during the day.
-K
Jon Schild
I just gave a friend a free sample (pilot and first episode) when he was
lonely and needed someone to spend time with. Now he is hooked and comes
over for 2-3 episodes whenever he can. So I get to rewatch, and get to
hook a new fan at the same time.
--
Wanted dead and/or alive: Shroedinger's cat.
Keith
"Cheryl Martin" <zof...@zaphod.deepthot.org> wrote in message
news:gmkap3$aub$1...@dent.deepthot.org...
Jay Denebeim
We like it here.
Anyway, we got a pretty good turnout. 5 or 6 people showed. More
than will fit on our humongous couch, assuming heterosexual males. We
got through 'Soul Hunter'.
Delenn's actions at the end of that episode still really disturb me.
She is so sure of her beliefs that she is willing to kill the souls.
There's no real way to prove whether the Minbari beliefs or the Soul
Hunter beliefs are correct. Heck, you can't even prove that
Franklin's belief is not the right one.
I'm not sure that Franklin's belief might not be the most horrific of
the bunch. If there are no souls in there, just copies of the dead
person's personality/knowledge it really would be a shame to destroy
them. (Recall that this is what happens more or less to the cast,
their personalities are recorded into computer simulations.
Simulations that are able to act in the real world)
Jay
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Jan
>
>Anyway, we got a pretty good turnout. 5 or 6 people showed. More
>than will fit on our humongous couch, assuming heterosexual males. We
>got through 'Soul Hunter'.
Glad it worked out. Someday I hope to be able to join a group-watch of B5
>
>Delenn's actions at the end of that episode still really disturb me.
>She is so sure of her beliefs that she is willing to kill the souls.
>There's no real way to prove whether the Minbari beliefs or the Soul
>Hunter beliefs are correct. Heck, you can't even prove that
>Franklin's belief is not the right one.
On the other hand, we do know that the 'souls' were taken without permission so
all she's really doing is ensuring what would have happened if the Soul Hunters
hadn't intervened
>
>I'm not sure that Franklin's belief might not be the most horrific of
>the bunch. If there are no souls in there, just copies of the dead
>person's personality/knowledge it really would be a shame to destroy
>them. (Recall that this is what happens more or less to the cast,
>their personalities are recorded into computer simulations.
>Simulations that are able to act in the real world)
>
Now that's a truly horrible thought. First having my 'recording' taken without
permission and then used for something I'd never have countenanced in life? No
Thanks! If that technology were ever to become available I *might* have a
recording made as insurance against possible brain damage but I'd be sure to
stipulate that it be erased/destroyed on my death.
Jan
--
Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognize
this singular truth: that we are one; and this singular rule: that
we must be kind to one another.
Amy Guskin
<gmptp...@drn.newsguy.com>):
> In article <gmp9g3$mjj$1...@dent.deepthot.org>, Jay Denebeim says...
>>
>> Anyway, we got a pretty good turnout. 5 or 6 people showed. More
>> than will fit on our humongous couch, assuming heterosexual males. We
>> got through 'Soul Hunter'.
>
> Glad it worked out. Someday I hope to be able to join a group-watch of B5 <<
Me, too!
>>> I'm not sure that Franklin's belief might not be the most horrific of
>> the bunch. If there are no souls in there, just copies of the dead
>> person's personality/knowledge it really would be a shame to destroy
>> them. (Recall that this is what happens more or less to the cast,
>> their personalities are recorded into computer simulations.
>> Simulations that are able to act in the real world)
>>
>
> Now that's a truly horrible thought. First having my 'recording' taken
> without
> permission and then used for something I'd never have countenanced in life?
> No
> Thanks! If that technology were ever to become available I *might* have a
> recording made as insurance against possible brain damage but I'd be sure to
> stipulate that it be erased/destroyed on my death. <<
This kind of reminds me of discussions we've had here of manipulating actors'
images in order to have them perform, or hawk commercial products, after
their deaths.
Amy
--
Ten Thousand Questions Blog:
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
Laura Appelbaum
news:gmp9g3$mjj$1...@dent.deepthot.org...
> In article <r4Ejl.6431$j27....@newsfe04.iad>,
>
> Delenn's actions at the end of that episode still really disturb me.
> She is so sure of her beliefs that she is willing to kill the souls.
> There's no real way to prove whether the Minbari beliefs or the Soul
> Hunter beliefs are correct. Heck, you can't even prove that
> Franklin's belief is not the right one.
>
to me that she was *freeing* them to go where ever it is souls go when they
join the sea of stars, to that pool of souls that get reincarnated into the
next generation of Minbari -- or humans.
Now, I haven't watched B5 in years, but that episode/scene (always one of my
favorite eps) came back full force recently when I was reading a scholarly
book on indigenous Japanese belief "The Fox and the Jewel: Shared and
Private Meanings in Contemporary Japanese Inari Worship" (yes, this is the
kind of thing I read for fun). Here is a quote from pages 117-118 ... see
if it reminds y'all of any bone-topknot-crested, kimono wearing aliens we
all know:
"At the time of death, the soul may visibly leave the body in the form of a
round shining ball called hitodama (human spirit). It is reported to be
blue and white with red spots, or bluish-red, with a flat, round head and a
tail; when it rests on the ground it loses its light and becomes many small
black insects or bits of charcoal .... In time the manifestation of a
hitodama came to be associated with unhappy souls, and by the seventeenth
century there were many stories of this sort. People who had been murdered
or unfairly accused would rise from their graves as fireballs that might
effect revenge or would resume their human shape and settle their unfinished
business .... Hitodama ... were balls of light without tails, about the size
of a light-bulb, and appeared to the relatives, no matter how far-flung, of
a person who was about to die. After the person's death, this ball of light
could be seen hovering about the roof. If the person was not good and did
not go to paradise, his soul might lurk around the living in this form."
LMA
Amy Guskin
<Jnqkl.75$ac6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>):
> "Jay Denebeim" <dene...@deepthot.org> wrote in message
> news:gmp9g3$mjj$1...@dent.deepthot.org...
>> In article <r4Ejl.6431$j27....@newsfe04.iad>,
>>
>> Delenn's actions at the end of that episode still really disturb me.
>> She is so sure of her beliefs that she is willing to kill the souls.
>> There's no real way to prove whether the Minbari beliefs or the Soul
>> Hunter beliefs are correct. Heck, you can't even prove that
>> Franklin's belief is not the right one.
>>
> I *never* interpreted her as "killing" the souls -- it always seemed clear
> to me that she was *freeing* them to go where ever it is souls go when they
> join the sea of stars, to that pool of souls that get reincarnated into the
> next generation of Minbari -- or humans.
>
> Now, I haven't watched B5 in years, but that episode/scene (always one of my
> favorite eps) came back full force recently when I was reading a scholarly
> book on indigenous Japanese belief "The Fox and the Jewel: Shared and
> Private Meanings in Contemporary Japanese Inari Worship" (yes, this is the
> kind of thing I read for fun). Here is a quote from pages 117-118 ... see
> if it reminds y'all of any bone-topknot-crested, kimono wearing aliens we
> all know:
>
> "At the time of death, the soul may visibly leave the body in the form of a
> round shining ball called hitodama (human spirit). <snip> <<
Nice find, Laura. Now I have something new to research -- Japanese
psychopomping (care/conduction of the soul at death).
Donald Arseneau
wrote:
> "Jay Denebeim" <deneb...@deepthot.org> wrote in message
>
> news:gmp9g3$mjj$1...@dent.deepthot.org...> In article <r4Ejl.6431$j27.4...@newsfe04.iad>,
>
> > Delenn's actions at the end of that episode still really disturb me.
> > She is so sure of her beliefs that she is willing to kill the souls.
> > There's no real way to prove whether the Minbari beliefs or the Soul
> > Hunter beliefs are correct. Heck, you can't even prove that
> > Franklin's belief is not the right one.
>
> I *never* interpreted her as "killing" the souls -- it always seemed clear
> to me that she was *freeing* them
You have bought into Delenn's beliefs. Yes, she believed she was
freeing them, but if her beliefs were wrong, then she was killing
them.
She did not admit any doubt, blindly accepting any risk by not
acknowledging it.
Jan
Donald Arseneau says...
What was the risk? All she did was ensure that whatever would have happened to
the contents of the globes would now happen as if the Soul Hunters had never
interfered. They were already dead.
Doug Freyburger
> Donald Arseneau says...
>
> >You have bought into Delenn's beliefs. Yes, she believed she was
> >freeing them, but if her beliefs were wrong, then she was killing them.
> >She did not admit any doubt, blindly accepting any risk by not
> >acknowledging it.
>
> What was the risk? All she did was ensure that whatever would have happened to
> the contents of the globes would now happen as if the Soul Hunters had never
> interfered. They were already dead.
Except that they were only "dead" in terms of bodies and we
know for certain there are species without bodies. The Soul
Hunters did on more than one occasion intercept entire species
in the process of dropping their bodies and going from more like
Minbari to more like Vorlons.
IF someone ever figures out how to help a soul in a globe through
that transistion then all of the souls stored in the globes are still
alive in some sense and could still benefit. Think of it like the
folks who put their bodies in cryogenic storage hoping their
disease can be cured some day and they can be revived. In
that viewpoint Delenn did kill the souls and she never considered
the possibility.
The Soul Hunters can be viewed as vampires sucking the noble
souls out of the universe into their collection or as saviors of the
noble souls for a time when they can be helped through the
transition to Vorlon-like energy beings. Which you see them as
largely depends on your viewpoint until you know for sure just
how much effort is being put into the effort of figuring out how to
foster that transition.
Jan
> Jan <janmschroe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Donald Arseneau says...
>
> > >You have bought into Delenn's beliefs. Yes, she believed she was
> > >freeing them, but if her beliefs were wrong, then she was killing them.
> > >She did not admit any doubt, blindly accepting any risk by not
> > >acknowledging it.
>
> > What was the risk? All she did was ensure that whatever would have happened to
> > the contents of the globes would now happen as if the Soul Hunters had never
> > interfered. They were already dead.
>
> Except that they were only "dead" in terms of bodies and we
> know for certain there are species without bodies. The Soul
> Hunters did on more than one occasion intercept entire species
> in the process of dropping their bodies and going from more like
> Minbari to more like Vorlons.
Well, I know of one occassion, anyway, in River of Souls. What I
don't understand is why setting the contents of the globe free would
do anything but allow whatever process or lack thereof to continue as
if there had been no interruption.
>
> IF someone ever figures out how to help a soul in a globe through
> that transistion then all of the souls stored in the globes are still
> alive in some sense and could still benefit. Think of it like the
> folks who put their bodies in cryogenic storage hoping their
> disease can be cured some day and they can be revived. In
> that viewpoint Delenn did kill the souls and she never considered
> the possibility.
How so? All she destroyed were the globes, releasing the contents.
Contents that had been captured without consent. As far as we know
there weren't any beings that had been stored by request.
>
> The Soul Hunters can be viewed as vampires sucking the noble
> souls out of the universe into their collection or as saviors of the
> noble souls for a time when they can be helped through the
> transition to Vorlon-like energy beings. Which you see them as
> largely depends on your viewpoint until you know for sure just
> how much effort is being put into the effort of figuring out how to
> foster that transition.
What if they never wanted to become Vorlon-like energy beings? What
if they were content to simply cease to be or to ascend to a higher
plane of existance?
Jan
Amy Guskin
<df376ea6-9648-461d...@i18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
The Minbari believe in reincarnation. That's established. So to them, their
view would be that the souls, now freed, would be able to go on with their
natural process of being born into a new incarnation, living, dying, going
through the cycle again and again...and if that race just happens to ascend
to Vorlon-like energy-being status, that soul that keeps reincarnating back
into that race will eventually get to that point, anyway.
SLerman
> >> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:46:42 -0500, thus spake Doug Freyburger (in article
>
Hopefully JMS will read this thread. Wasn't one of his main goals with
B5 to start conversations (or bar fights) like this? And here we are,
15 years later, still having these discussions.
Dan Dassow
> Hopefully JMS will read this thread. Wasn't one of his main goals with
> B5 to start conversations (or bar fights) like this? And here we are,
> 15 years later, still having these discussions.
I suspect that B5 will start bar fights in perpetuity. Unlike many
shows, B5 does not provide the answers, but simply poses some
difficult questions.
From what I have been able to tell, JMS has also been starting bar
fights with _Changeling_.
Dan Dassow
Wes Struebing
wrote:
>On Feb 12, 10:46 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Jan <janmschroe...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > Donald Arseneau says...
>>
>> > >You have bought into Delenn's beliefs. Yes, she believed she was
>> > >freeing them, but if her beliefs were wrong, then she was killing them.
>> > >She did not admit any doubt, blindly accepting any risk by not
>> > >acknowledging it.
>>
>> > What was the risk? All she did was ensure that whatever would have happened to
>> > the contents of the globes would now happen as if the Soul Hunters had never
>> > interfered. They were already dead.
>>
>> Except that they were only "dead" in terms of bodies and we
>> know for certain there are species without bodies. The Soul
>> Hunters did on more than one occasion intercept entire species
>> in the process of dropping their bodies and going from more like
>> Minbari to more like Vorlons.
>
>Well, I know of one occassion, anyway, in River of Souls. What I
>don't understand is why setting the contents of the globe free would
>do anything but allow whatever process or lack thereof to continue as
>if there had been no interruption.
>
>>
Indeed. I always interpreted the Soul Hunters' actions as "arresting"
the development of the captured soul...
I'm not sure that Delenn did them any favors, but I don't believe that
she harmed them, either.
Wes Struebing
wrote:
But wasn't part of their belief in a sort of re-incarnation due to
Valen? (which certainly wasn't a reincarnation, but that's a story for
another day...)
I do believe that smashing the globes was benign for the "souls"
trapped within them, though.
Wes Struebing
Sounds like it from what I've read, too. One can always hope! (and
it sounds as if Eastwood would be OK with that, too)
Jay Denebeim
>Now that's a truly horrible thought. First having my 'recording'
>taken without permission and then used for something I'd never have
>countenanced in life? No Thanks! If that technology were ever to
>become available I *might* have a recording made as insurance against
>possible brain damage but I'd be sure to stipulate that it be
>erased/destroyed on my death.
Well, all I can say is that a late, lamented, friend of mine was a
brain in a jar. That didn't seem to bother him much.
Jay Denebeim
Laura Appelbaum <l-app...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I *never* interpreted her as "killing" the souls -- it always seemed
>clear to me that she was *freeing* them to go where ever it is souls
>go when they join the sea of stars, to that pool of souls that get
>reincarnated into the next generation of Minbari -- or humans.
That's what *she* thought. The soul hunter had a different view.
Looks like the soul evaporated to me. There really isn't a way to
tell who was right, that's the thing about religion.
Chris Adams
>Well, all I can say is that a late, lamented, friend of mine was a
>brain in a jar. That didn't seem to bother him much.
Was his name Abby something?
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Doug Freyburger
>
> The Minbari believe in reincarnation. That's established. So to them, their
> view would be that the souls, now freed, would be able to go on with their
> natural process of being born into a new incarnation, living, dying, going
> through the cycle again and again...
Problem is their best evidence for that belief is the
triluminary that probably actually measures DNA.
Compare this with how well established the existance
of the Vorlons, Shadows, Walkers and so on is.
They believe in reincanration, but they have docked
with Vorlon spacecraft. It's a rather different level of
evidence.
> and if that race just happens to ascend
> to Vorlon-like energy-being status, that soul that keeps reincarnating back
> into that race will eventually get to that point, anyway.
Jan's point is a good one for most of the souls they
intercapt - When they store an individual soul in an
orb it's usually a body-person dying so it was without
permission and usually against their will. They
intercept the soul on the way to whatever happens
next. If there ends up being some sort of
Bhodisatva of orbs who can lead the souls in the orbs
into bodiless-person status they might not be ready
or willing at that point.
Delenn's breaking the orbs takes them out of stasis
and removes the possibility that they can be helped
through the transition - Probably good but maybe
bad and who's she to make that decision for the
folks in the orbs? It is potentially as bad as the soul
hunter putting the soul into the orb in the first place
if her belief is wrong. Just agreeing with her isn't
good enough in a case like that.
But Jan's point falls in the case of a species in the
process of deliberately dropping their bodies and
getting intercepted by the soul hunters. The River of
Souls is about what can happen in that case. The
captured species was *pissed*. If left to their own
means they would have completed the transistion to
bodiless-person status but the soul hunters stopped
them. Did the soul hunters stop them in a way that
when the orb was broken they couldn't complete what
they had started? It seems like that in the movie.
Delenn breaking that orb would have been disasterous.
Oh wait, that's what happened in the movie anyways -
They escaped the orb. Much better to enlist the aide
of a species that already transitioned to bodiless-person
status.
It's an interesting variation on the battle between the
Vorlons starting with helping species up through genetic
manipulation and the Shadows helping species up
through evolutionary responses to crisis. The Soul
Hunters catch the species that are too weak to be
able to keep them away during their transitions and the
Soul Hunters do it to individuals as a sort of practice for
the bigger catches.
Wes Struebing
Good point, Doug. Each is imposing their will on another "weaker"
species (soul...) because "We Know Better And We're Going To Help
You!" And, you are indeed correct that Delenn is as guilty of this as
those you've already pointed out. Even if her "motives" were
altruistic.
Donald Arseneau
> In article <dff5139b-26a9-47e3-841f-1665f7caa...@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Donald Arseneau says...
> >She did not admit any doubt, blindly accepting any risk by not
> >acknowledging it.
>
> What was the risk? All she did was ensure that whatever would have happened to
> the contents of the globes would now happen as if the Soul Hunters had never
> interfered. They were already dead.
No, the soul hunters caught them and preserved them (the souls)
before they could die. If the minbari belief in recycled souls is
wrong, and the sould hunters belief that souls die and are lost is
right, then Delenn's breaking the globes is like switching off the
the cryo-preservation unit of a body, preserved just short of death.
Now, one could take that analogy and decide that she acted
correctly anyway, but she did not have that debate, and did not
consider that she was leaving those souls to die by releasing them.
Given that minbari souls being reborn in humans was a trick of
interbreeding, it is quite likely the whole notion of recycled souls
is wrong.
Donald Arseneau as...@triumf.ca
Mike Ross
wrote:
>In article <Jnqkl.75$ac6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
>Laura Appelbaum <l-app...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I *never* interpreted her as "killing" the souls -- it always seemed
>>clear to me that she was *freeing* them to go where ever it is souls
>>go when they join the sea of stars, to that pool of souls that get
>>reincarnated into the next generation of Minbari -- or humans.
>
>That's what *she* thought. The soul hunter had a different view.
>Looks like the soul evaporated to me. There really isn't a way to
>tell who was right, that's the thing about religion.
Except that... the soul-globes did seem capable of a limited degreee of concious
action. Wasn't there a moment in that episode where the soul-globes, floating,
moved with deliberate intent to block the soul hunter with a physical barrier,
or at least to show their disapproval? If they could do that, then one might
assume that they could make at least a token effort to evade Delenn... but they
did not.
(I very nearly typed 'snow globes' at several points, which would have
considerably altered the meaning of this post!)
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Jay Denebeim
Wes Struebing <str...@carpedementem.org> wrote:
>But wasn't part of their belief in a sort of re-incarnation due to
>Valen? (which certainly wasn't a reincarnation, but that's a story
>for another day...)
Oh that's a good point. I'd forgotten that what the Minbari believe
was pretty much proven to be false, or rather the evidence they had
for their belief was false.
>I do believe that smashing the globes was benign for the "souls"
>trapped within them, though.
Depends on what you mean by benign. If Franklin or the Soul Hunter is
correct they are being well killed or whatever. "All that they are
and all that they will ever be is lost" Whether it's a recording or
an actual soul the Soul Hunters can talk to them, they exist and are
conscious. So if either of them are right Delenn either broke
something that is quite useful or killed them.
And yeah, we've been over this before. Is there a word for 'I feel
like I've beaten this dead horse with a stick before'?
Jay Denebeim
Mike Ross <mi...@corestore.org> wrote:
>Except that... the soul-globes did seem capable of a limited degreee
>of concious action. Wasn't there a moment in that episode where the
>soul-globes, floating, moved with deliberate intent to block the soul
>hunter with a physical barrier, or at least to show their
>disapproval? If they could do that, then one might assume that they
>could make at least a token effort to evade Delenn... but they did
>not.
Perhaps. There were more globes in that sack than there were floating
around earlier. Who's to say that some of them were okay with dying
and some were not.
Jay Denebeim
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>Once upon a time, Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.org> said:
>>Well, all I can say is that a late, lamented, friend of mine was a
>>brain in a jar. That didn't seem to bother him much.
>
>Was his name Abby something?
Gharlane actually.
Kathryn Huxtable
> And yeah, we've been over this before. Is there a word for 'I feel
> like I've beaten this dead horse with a stick before'?
*Nothing* beats anything with a stick like Basil Fawlty beat that car.
Happy birthday Jay. You're still a couple of months younger than me.
-K
Keith
Cheryl Martin
Saturday Feb 21 starting around 6p-ish.
Cheryl
--
*Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
*http://www.grumpywitch.org http://dragonnette.livejournal.com *
*I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. *
*We stand between the darkness and the light. ---JMS *
Jay Denebeim
Kathryn Huxtable <kat...@kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote:
>Happy birthday Jay. You're still a couple of months younger than me.
Thanks gorgeous. Oh, and I think I caught your baking bug. I just
finished a shoo-fly pie. Alton Brown's recipe.
Kathryn Huxtable
> In article <87d4diz...@server-a.kathrynhuxtable.name>,
> Kathryn Huxtable <kat...@kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote:
>
>>Happy birthday Jay. You're still a couple of months younger than me.
>
> Thanks gorgeous. Oh, and I think I caught your baking bug. I just
> finished a shoo-fly pie. Alton Brown's recipe.
(Blush!)
How was it? I saw that episode. It was funny because he also made
Boston brown bread, which I grew up on, but hadn't seen in stores in
the midwest for years. Deanne saw a can of it and wondered what it
was.
Synchronicity, I guess.
-K