OT: Anyone else seen this scam?
Charlie E.
Just wanted to inquire to see if anyone else has seen what has to be a
pretty unique scam...
At the first of the month, we got a call from the credit card security
department asking if we had made a couple of $3.95 purchases, probably
on the internet. We hadn't, so they canceled them, but we were
curious what it was about.
About a week later, we get a package in the mail of some Extreme Acai
pills. Reading the little invoice, it says in the fine print "this is
your free 14 day supply. If you do not cancel, we will be shipping
you a 30 day supply for the price of $79.95, and will continue to ship
them until you cancel."
Now, the fun part. We never ordered them. We never gave them the
card number, or our address! What is more, it was a brand new card
that had only been used twice up to that point. Our credit card
company admits that they are being hit by 40 of these a day, but
usually they can trace the order to someone clicking on an ad on
either Oprah's or Rachel Ray's websites. We have never been to either
of them, though.
Also, when you call to cancel, expect to wait a long, long, long time
on hold. Took me two days, at about 2 hours the first day, and three
hours the second to get through. Found out the order was atributed to
an email address (on aol.com!) that is definitely not mine.
So, it looks like the scam may work like this. Scammer gets a list of
credit card numbers and addresses. Makes a small charge to see if the
number is still good, and if it is, sends you a 'product.' If you
don't officially stop him, he will keep shipping you product until you
finally catch on.
By the way, did I mention that there were a COUPLE of $3.95 charges?
The next week, we received a shipment of weight loss teas and Acai
pills... ;-)
Charlie
Dave Hayslett
> Hi All,
> Just wanted to inquire to see if anyone else has seen what has to be a
> pretty unique scam...
>
> At the first of the month, we got a call from the credit card security
> department asking if we had made a couple of $3.95 purchases, probably
> on the internet. We hadn't, so they canceled them, but we were
> curious what it was about.
snip
> Also, when you call to cancel, expect to wait a long, long, long time
> on hold. Took me two days, at about 2 hours the first day, and three
> hours the second to get through. Found out the order was atributed to
> an email address (on aol.com!) that is definitely not mine.
Probably would be a good idea to dispute the charge with your credit card
company, let them know what's going on, and see if they'll bring legal
corporate weight to bear on the scammer(s). (I'd think they would, if
their card numbers were compromised. At least they should issue you a new
card with a new number.) Should take less time on the phone, too.
--
Dave (1/20/2009 12:13:13 AM)
The goddess worked by threes; this was the third.
Kurt Ullman
Dave Hayslett <hays...@sc.rr.com> wrote:
And cc everything to the Consumer Protection people at your State's
Attorney General's Office. They tend to get REALLY upset about things
like that.
Joseph DeMartino
> By the way, did I mention that there were a COUPLE of $3.95 charges?
> The next week, we received a shipment of weight loss teas and Acai
> pills... ;-)
If the shipping and/or billing addresses for the company that's
sending you this crap are out of state, make sure that you also copy
the Federal Trade Commission and the Attorney General's office of the
other state(s) (in addition to your state's AG) on all
correspondence. If this is happening across state lines they'll all
have some jurisdiction and can really make life miserable for this a-
hole.
Regards,
Joe
Jon Schild
If it's Bank of America they won't lift a finger. I had a phoney charge
on their card, and disputed it, and they just said it looked legitimate
to them. I had to track it down and convince the magazine company that
the card was used without my permission, then they cancelled the charge.
B of A left 10% of the fradulent charge on my account as a "service
fee" even after the company told them it was fraudulent.
--
Wanted dead and/or alive: Shroedinger's cat.
David Williams
"Jon Schild" <j...@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:gl4miu$svh$1...@news.xmission.com...
> B of A left 10% of the fradulent charge on my account as a "service fee"
> even after the company told them it was fraudulent.
That's when I'd call customer service and ask to speak to a supervisor. If
they don't remove the charge, I'd politley inform them there are thousands
of credit card providers around, and that I don't need their card anymore.
Good-bye.
(Just gave AmEx the kiss-off a couple of weeks ago myself.)
Regards,
David W.
Charlie E.
wrote:
Hi Dave,
Yep, told the card company, and have a new, new card. We have also
decided that this card is history. It has been compromised twice now
in the last three months. It is either the card company or Vonage
that was compromised.
However, the credit union and the card company are not doing anything,
at least not that we can tell...
Charlie
Stile4aly
Jon,
I work for BofA in the claims department. There isn't a service
charge for filing a claim, and if you'd like I'd be glad to take a
look at your situation and see what's going on. Send me an email and
I'll send you my work contact info if you're interested.
As far as the Acai berry charges, I'm hesitant to call it a scam, but
we're definitely seeing a high volume of these charges coming through
the claims department these days. Historically with these types of
charges they are related to a consumer initiating a free trial and
then forgetting to cancel. It would be against Visa's operating
guidelines for the company to just run random numbers, but it may be
that the free trial was attached to the fine print of another
purchase. A common one I see in this vein is when you make a Best Buy
purchase they typically offer a free magazine trial, or when you
purchase air travel at some websites they offer you $10 off if you
sign up for a free trial of Reservation Rewards, or if you order one
of the "free" credit reports they advertise on TV they sign you up for
a credit monitoring service. The good news is that most of these
merchants are very reasonable about refunding the charges provided
that you contact them to cancel the service, even if it's after the
fact. The Bank's problem is that because it's charged through your
debit card we have very limited rights to chargeback the merchant. In
order to issue a chargeback on a recurring item we need proof that the
service was cancelled prior to posting, or proof that it's fraudulent.
Jon Schild
I did speak to a supervisor. I didn't actually sign up with Bank of
America. They bought the account from someone else. Once it is paid off
I will never again do business with them.
Jon Schild
Since it is a few months in the past now, I will let it drop and just
never do business with them again. I tried to tell two different people
at that time that there should be no service charge, because THEY had
allowed a fraudulent charge to be placed, and they had no business
punishing me for it. They really didn't care what I thought about the
matter.
> As far as the Acai berry charges, I'm hesitant to call it a scam, but
> we're definitely seeing a high volume of these charges coming through
> the claims department these days. Historically with these types of
> charges they are related to a consumer initiating a free trial and
> then forgetting to cancel. It would be against Visa's operating
> guidelines for the company to just run random numbers, but it may be
> that the free trial was attached to the fine print of another
> purchase. A common one I see in this vein is when you make a Best Buy
> purchase they typically offer a free magazine trial, or when you
> purchase air travel at some websites they offer you $10 off if you
> sign up for a free trial of Reservation Rewards, or if you order one
> of the "free" credit reports they advertise on TV they sign you up for
> a credit monitoring service. The good news is that most of these
> merchants are very reasonable about refunding the charges provided
> that you contact them to cancel the service, even if it's after the
> fact. The Bank's problem is that because it's charged through your
> debit card we have very limited rights to chargeback the merchant. In
> order to issue a chargeback on a recurring item we need proof that the
> service was cancelled prior to posting, or proof that it's fraudulent.
>
Stile4aly
Well, for what it is worth, my apologies on the matter. I'm sorry I
couldn't help in this case.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I work for BofA in the claims department. There isn't a service
> charge for filing a claim, and if you'd like I'd be glad to take a
> look at your situation and see what's going on. Send me an email and
> I'll send you my work contact info if you're interested.
Standard reaction to any such claim over the network - Figure
it's a scammer trying to get your account number, ignore it,
work directly with numbers printed on your statement.
Given this standard reaction to anything that *might* be a
phishing attempt, it is a very bad idea to make a legitimate
offer of that nature in a posting. If the last sentence read
"Call the number on your statement and ask for X to help
you. That's me" instead of "Send me an email" it would
be a lot more professional. Folks in a customer service
department should NEVER mimic phishing methods in
any way.
> As far as the Acai berry charges, I'm hesitant to call it a scam, but
> we're definitely seeing a high volume of these charges coming through
> the claims department these days. Historically with these types of
> charges they are related to a consumer initiating a free trial and
> then forgetting to cancel.
In the telephone industry this is called "slamming" and
doing it gets all fees waived every time. Slamming definitely
counts as a scam and any such event in the credit card
and debit card industry is merely the same type of scam
moved to another industry.
Another parallel in legal terms is getting shipped an item
by US Mail that you didn't order. It's allowed to keep it and
not pay without any mark on your credit.
> It would be against Visa's operating
> guidelines for the company to just run random numbers,
Fraud on a credit card? It happens. Criminals don't care
about policies. It's trivial to open a merchant account, use
it until it stops working, then move on.
To my knowledge credit card companies only go after large
scams for criminal prosecution. I understand the financial
necessity but once it's known the size of "large" then
criminals start cycling accounts before they hit the
threshold. What percentage of the budget goes into fraud
prosecution I don't know but reactions like this say it does
not include training customer service folks on the topic.
> but it may be
> that the free trial was attached to the fine print of another
> purchase. A common one I see in this vein is when you make a Best Buy
> purchase they typically offer a free magazine trial, or when you
> purchase air travel at some websites they offer you $10 off if you
> sign up for a free trial of Reservation Rewards, or if you order one
> of the "free" credit reports they advertise on TV they sign you up for
> a credit monitoring service. The good news is that most of these
> merchants are very reasonable about refunding the charges provided
> that you contact them to cancel the service, even if it's after the
> fact.
Voluntary sign up and slamming - There's a gray scale of
awareness of what you're signing up for. The deal of "Do you
want to sign up for X for a discount now?" is on the voluntary
sign up side of the gray scale. Something in the fine print
is on the slamming side of the gray scale.
> The Bank's problem is that because it's charged through your
> debit card we have very limited rights to chargeback the merchant. In
> order to issue a chargeback on a recurring item we need proof that the
> service was cancelled prior to posting, or proof that it's fraudulent ...
Yet the coverage works for a credit card and the victim didn't
give a PIN to make the slam happen.
Stile4aly
> Stile4aly <stile4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I work for BofA in the claims department. There isn't a service
> > charge for filing a claim, and if you'd like I'd be glad to take a
> > look at your situation and see what's going on. Send me an email and
> > I'll send you my work contact info if you're interested.
>
> Standard reaction to any such claim over the network - Figure
> it's a scammer trying to get your account number, ignore it,
> work directly with numbers printed on your statement.
>
> Given this standard reaction to anything that *might* be a
> phishing attempt, it is a very bad idea to make a legitimate
> offer of that nature in a posting. If the last sentence read
> "Call the number on your statement and ask for X to help
> you. That's me" instead of "Send me an email" it would
> be a lot more professional. Folks in a customer service
> department should NEVER mimic phishing methods in
> any way.
It's a fair point, and my intent was not to ask for his account
number. I would have replied to him with my bankofamerica.com email
address and work phone number. I suppose that for everything I say to
prove I'm not a scammer could be equivalently done by a scammer, so by
all means contact the number on your statement.
>
> > As far as the Acai berry charges, I'm hesitant to call it a scam, but
> > we're definitely seeing a high volume of these charges coming through
> > the claims department these days. Historically with these types of
> > charges they are related to a consumer initiating a free trial and
> > then forgetting to cancel.
>
> In the telephone industry this is called "slamming" and
> doing it gets all fees waived every time. Slamming definitely
> counts as a scam and any such event in the credit card
> and debit card industry is merely the same type of scam
> moved to another industry.
I don't disagree that the ethics of setting up these types of
recurrent charges based on free trial offers is a questionable
practice, however the credit card networks doesn't regulate ethics and
we are required to adhere to the Visa guidelines with regards to these
chargebacks.
> Another parallel in legal terms is getting shipped an item
> by US Mail that you didn't order. It's allowed to keep it and
> not pay without any mark on your credit.
And in fact if we wanted to issue a chargeback in that case, you would
need to return the merchandise, possibly at your own cost.
> > It would be against Visa's operating
> > guidelines for the company to just run random numbers,
>
> Fraud on a credit card? It happens. Criminals don't care
> about policies. It's trivial to open a merchant account, use
> it until it stops working, then move on.
>
> To my knowledge credit card companies only go after large
> scams for criminal prosecution. I understand the financial
> necessity but once it's known the size of "large" then
> criminals start cycling accounts before they hit the
> threshold. What percentage of the budget goes into fraud
> prosecution I don't know but reactions like this say it does
> not include training customer service folks on the topic.
Far less goes into the prosecution of fraud than goes into simply
writing off the losses related to fraud. The Visa/MC/AMEX/Discover
networks would prosecute merchant terminal fraud, but if your personal
account is compromised it's less likely that the bank will prosecute
unless there's a reasonable possibility that the bank will be able to
recover their losses. Fraudsters don't tend to keep the money they
steal in any type of accessible asset, so prosecution is moot except
in extreme cases (as in the hack of the Heartland processing network
being reported). As far training CS folks on the topic it's a bit
like training the engine room workers of a cruise ship how to run the
conceirge desk. It would be nice, but the resources necessary to do
that training and loss of productivity while that training is done is
not offset by the benefit that training might provide. And just so
I'm clear, BofA invests dozens of hours of training per year for every
associate, so we do take professional education seriously.
> > but it may be
> > that the free trial was attached to the fine print of another
> > purchase. A common one I see in this vein is when you make a Best Buy
> > purchase they typically offer a free magazine trial, or when you
> > purchase air travel at some websites they offer you $10 off if you
> > sign up for a free trial of Reservation Rewards, or if you order one
> > of the "free" credit reports they advertise on TV they sign you up for
> > a credit monitoring service. The good news is that most of these
> > merchants are very reasonable about refunding the charges provided
> > that you contact them to cancel the service, even if it's after the
> > fact.
>
> Voluntary sign up and slamming - There's a gray scale of
> awareness of what you're signing up for. The deal of "Do you
> want to sign up for X for a discount now?" is on the voluntary
> sign up side of the gray scale. Something in the fine print
> is on the slamming side of the gray scale.
>
> > The Bank's problem is that because it's charged through your
> > debit card we have very limited rights to chargeback the merchant. In
> > order to issue a chargeback on a recurring item we need proof that the
> > service was cancelled prior to posting, or proof that it's fraudulent ...
>
> Yet the coverage works for a credit card and the victim didn't
> give a PIN to make the slam happen.
Actually, the vast majority of debit card purchases are done without a
PIN and because the transactions are run through the Visa network (or
MC network for MC branded debit cards) the same chargeback regulations
apply as they do on credit cards.
jack
> Just wanted to inquire to see if anyone else has seen what has to be a
> pretty unique scam...
>
> At the first of the month, we got a call from the credit card security
> department asking if we had made a couple of $3.95 purchases, probably
> on the internet. We hadn't, so they canceled them, but we were
> curious what it was about.
>
Are you sure the security company was legit and not part of the scam?
Charlie E.
wrote:
Yeah, they were legit. We have had calls from them before...
Charlie
Kay Shapero
for Nigerian Scams... Snerk - give 'em one for chutzpah.
--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk
My guess it was. I have heard that scammers often make very small
test purchases when they have access to a stolen/cloned credit card
which the user is unlikely to pick up when they glance at their
monthly statement; if these go through, the scammers hit with a major
purchase later. CC companies have got wise to this, and contact
customers to check if they suspect non-legit card use.
Regards, /Peter/
Mike Ross
>Hi All,
>Just wanted to inquire to see if anyone else has seen what has to be a
>pretty unique scam...
>
>At the first of the month, we got a call from the credit card security
>department asking if we had made a couple of $3.95 purchases, probably
>on the internet. We hadn't, so they canceled them, but we were
>curious what it was about.
>
>About a week later, we get a package in the mail of some Extreme Acai
>pills. Reading the little invoice, it says in the fine print "this is
>your free 14 day supply. If you do not cancel, we will be shipping
>you a 30 day supply for the price of $79.95, and will continue to ship
>them until you cancel."
Not sure what jurisdiction you're in, but in the UK, unsolicited goods never
have to be paid for; you store them for a reasonable length of time to give the
sender the chance to pick them up, that's all. They can fill your hall with
pills if they like, you'll *never* owe them a brass washer. I'd be surprised if
there aren't similar laws in most US states.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Mike Ross
>David Williams wrote:
>> "Jon Schild" <j...@xmission.com> wrote in message
>> news:gl4miu$svh$1...@news.xmission.com...
>>
>>> B of A left 10% of the fradulent charge on my account as a "service fee"
>>>even after the company told them it was fraudulent.
>>
>> That's when I'd call customer service and ask to speak to a supervisor. If
>> they don't remove the charge, I'd politley inform them there are thousands
>> of credit card providers around, and that I don't need their card anymore.
>> Good-bye.
>>
>> (Just gave AmEx the kiss-off a couple of weeks ago myself.)
>I did speak to a supervisor. I didn't actually sign up with Bank of
>America. They bought the account from someone else. Once it is paid off
>I will never again do business with them.
Paid off except for their 10% 'service fee', I sincerely hope! You can't let
them get away with stuff like that.
And yes, AmEx are a bunch of thieving scamming evil useless bastards. In my
experience.
Mike Ross
>I work for BofA in the claims department. There isn't a service
>charge for filing a claim, and if you'd like I'd be glad to take a
>look at your situation and see what's going on. Send me an email and
>I'll send you my work contact info if you're interested.
Then perhaps you can riddle me this general industry question. Three times in
the last two years, Citi have called us to say 'your card number was in a
database that's been compromised. We're changing your card number'. They don't
give us any choice about it, it's a case of accept the new card number or take a
hike - you can't keep your existing card number.
Which of course means that all recurring debits fail, and have to be set up
again. A lot of hassle.
I want to find out who owns the database that's been compromised. But Citi say
they can't tell me, because they don't know themselves - they say 'Mastercard
told us about *a* database, they never say *which* database. That's classified'.
Are they BSing me? How do I go about finding out which database is involved? The
best suggestion Citi have given me is 'sue John Doe, then you'll have to
subpoena Mastercard to get the identity of John Doe; they won't just give it to
you'.
I'm looking to get some compensation for the hassle involved when changing card
numbers. Mostly as a lesson: if people who let their databases get cracked had
to pay out, say, $100 to every cardholder affected, they would bloody soon learn
to secure databases properly!
Rant over! :-)
Stile4aly
> 'As I walk along these shores
> I am the history within'
The database that's been compromised would be a merchant database.
There have been a number of high profile compromises in the last few
years: DSW, TJ Maxx, and lately Heartland processing. Network
security is expensive and some merchants fail to maintain proper
security and they get hacked. I agree that this is a failure of due
diligence by the merchants, but the problem is that it's very
difficult to promulgate new regulations about security through to
merchants because merchants have a lot of power at the negotiation
table with Visa, MC, etc. This is why Chip and PIN authorization is
the standard for credit processing in Europe but isn't used here. And
the sad thing is that by the time we get Chip and PIN here, card
counterfeiters will have already figured out how to crack it.
Now, recurring debits. When a merchant runs a debit as recurring the
debit appears in the Visa/MC system as having a prefix code which
indicates the item is recurring. Merchants using this code are
supposed to obtain a new authorization every time they run a
transaction, but some continually use the original authorization. If
a merchant attempts to obtain a new authorization on a blocked card
they will get a rejection. If they use the original authorization
then they will not know that the card is blocked and will be able to
complete the transaction.
As far as compensation for the hassle of having to reset all of your
recurring debits, I sympathize, but the bank is almost certainly not
liable. Your best bet would probably be, as the bank suggested, to
sue the perpetrator, even if he is unknown to you, and then get the
information by subpoena from the authorizing network. You could then
use that information to file suit against the merchant that failed to
secure your information. Your bang for the buck would probably be
minimal here.
A better bet would probably be to set up your recurring payments
through your credit card's online bill pay option. That way, you
control your recurring payments, not the receiving merchants.
Josh Hill
wrote:
>Not sure what jurisdiction you're in, but in the UK, unsolicited goods never
>have to be paid for; you store them for a reasonable length of time to give the
>sender the chance to pick them up, that's all. They can fill your hall with
>pills if they like, you'll *never* owe them a brass washer. I'd be surprised if
>there aren't similar laws in most US states.
Yes, unsolicited goods needn't be paid for. I don't even think they
have to be returned.
--
Josh
"What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
David Williams
"Mike Ross" <mi...@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:gdm4o4tr0ddvusu4a...@4ax.com...
> And yes, AmEx are a bunch of thieving scamming evil useless bastards. In
> my
> experience.
I... won't go into details... but AmEx really ticked me off... and not for
the first time, but DEFINITELY the last.
Unfortunately, theirs is the only credit card Costco accepts. So something
of an inconvenience there. C'est la guerre.
David W.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I... won't go into details... but AmEx really ticked me off... and not for
> the first time, but DEFINITELY the last.
>
> Unfortunately, theirs is the only credit card Costco accepts. So something
> of an inconvenience there. C'est la guerre.
Costco takes debit cards.
The ones I have horror stories about are some of the
department stores. Sears and JC Penny in my case.
I avoid shopping at either.
Mike Ross
Costco take debit cards, no problem. As for AmEx - here's my horror story, from
about 10 years ago:
Bought a used professional video camera from an ebay seller. Paid with
Amex. Package turned up a week or two later containing a piece of
garbage - the cobbled together bits of two incompatible cameras,
definitely NOT the one I'd bid on.
Seller told me to get a horse. Seller was kicked off ebay shortly
after due to numerous complaints - turned out he was a complete crook
who had been kicked off ebay more than once before.
No problem - Amex will take care of me, right? Called them, arranged
a chargeback. Was denied; seller had provided 1. proof of delivery and
2. a copy of the auction listing said 'sold as-is'. Well of course it
was 'as-is', I didn't have a problem with that - the problem was I
never got *the item I'd bought* - he sent me a different camera which
was a heap of junk instead.
Explained to Amex - told them the problem was the goods sent weren't
the ones I'd bought. Pointed out seller was a complete crook who had
been thrown off ebay more than once. They processed another
chargeback. Denied again, exactly the same explanation.
Furious now, got on to Amex managers. Went through the same story -
'yes yes we see your point, we'll charge it back again. Sorry about
the delay.' Made them promise to call me back *before* someone decided
to deny the chargeback again.
Next I heard - chargeback denied for third time, same explanation. I
think they just photocopied the letter... never got the promised call
to discuss the situation before they made a final decision.
'No, it's not possible for us to do a fourth chargeback. Terribly
sorry. You'll have to pay.'
So of course I cut up the Amex, sent it back with a cheque for my
final bill - LESS the cost of the camera. And told them where to stick
their card, and their customer service. They tried to come after me
for the money, but I told them in no uncertain terms to go whistle, so
in the end they charged it off.
Thing is, we're wealthy. If they had kept us on as customers we would probably
have qualifed for a Centurion by now. If they treat high-spending customers like
that, how do they treat the average Joe?
Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.