Londo's prophecies have been fulfilled (SPOILERS for WeHtmG!!!)
Paul Gesslein
SPOILERS AHEAD FOR "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO MR. GARIBALDI!"
Well, it looks like Londo saves his soul after all. All three
prophecies have come to pass and he succeeded in facing them. Some have
said that Londo must save the Shadows' Eye or Morden but it seems highly
unlikely that, to save his soul, he must do evil. If you look carefully
at the following explanations, notice that as each prophecy is fulfilled
it becomes part of something greater...
1) "You must save the eye that does not see" - Londo saves (will save)
G'kar from Centauri prison, and it is later revealed that G'kar loses
his eye (possibly while in the prison.) As payment, Londo will free
Narn, and put an end to the Centauri occupation thereby furthering the
AOL's cause.
2) "You must not kill the one who is already dead" - Sheridan is The One
who Londo does not kill in the future. If he had, Sheridan would not
have completed his journey through time, and the AOL would truly have
lost him forever, rather than on Za'ha'dum where there is the
possibility of resurrection from his "death".
3) "You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear knowing that it
will destroy you" - This has one of two possibilities. It could mean
being killed by G'kar, because who among us does not fear death? But a
more likely idea is that of becoming emperor. Londo loves power, but he
gathers it quietly. He has made it very clear that he has NO desire to
be emperor, and the very idea scares him. When he dies, Vir takes over
and, I believe, would bring the Centaurum into a new age of peace.
Dan Siemens
Paul Gesslein (pa...@lightlink.com) wrote:
: SPOILERS AHEAD FOR "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO MR. GARIBALDI!"
: Well, it looks like Londo saves his soul after all. All three
: prophecies have come to pass and he succeeded in facing them. Some have
: said that Londo must save the Shadows' Eye or Morden but it seems highly
: unlikely that, to save his soul, he must do evil. If you look carefully
: at the following explanations, notice that as each prophecy is fulfilled
: it becomes part of something greater...
: 1) "You must save the eye that does not see" - Londo saves (will save)
: G'kar from Centauri prison, and it is later revealed that G'kar loses
: his eye (possibly while in the prison.) As payment, Londo will free
: Narn, and put an end to the Centauri occupation thereby furthering the
: AOL's cause.
ARGH! Please, don't refer to the Army of Light as "AOL". That just
makes my skin crawl.
: 2) "You must not kill the one who is already dead" - Sheridan is The One
: who Londo does not kill in the future. If he had, Sheridan would not
: have completed his journey through time, and the AOL would truly have
: lost him forever, rather than on Za'ha'dum where there is the
: possibility of resurrection from his "death".
As others have noted, Refa and Morden are also excellent candidates for
this one. Refa he DID kill. Morden -- well, we shall see. Sheridan
certainly seems to qualify now too, though.
: 3) "You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear knowing that it
: will destroy you" - This has one of two possibilities. It could mean
: being killed by G'kar, because who among us does not fear death? But a
: more likely idea is that of becoming emperor. Londo loves power, but he
: gathers it quietly. He has made it very clear that he has NO desire to
: be emperor, and the very idea scares him. When he dies, Vir takes over
: and, I believe, would bring the Centaurum into a new age of peace.
Now THIS I really have to disagree with. Lady Morella tells Londo that
one part of his fate is CERTAIN, and cannot be changed -- he WILL become
Emperor. It doesn't matter what else he chooses. Obviously, Morella
wasn't telling him that he would DEFINITELY find redemption, so clearly,
becoming Emperor cannot be the greatest fear that he must surrender
himself to.
Dan
Jeffrey Milner
It seems to me that Lady Morella prophesied about three MORE chances and
that he had two previously, but failed them. It doesn't follow that he must
satisfy all THREE in order to save himself. So, to get to three - he DOES kill
the one who is already dead, leaving two chances. He DOES NOT save the Eye
that cannot see, leaving one chance. I do think we have witnessed already that
one - surrendering his life to G'Kar to save Sheridan and Delenn.
Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94
Paul Gesslein (pa...@lightlink.com) wrote:
: SPOILERS AHEAD FOR "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO MR. GARIBALDI!"
: 1) "You must save the eye that does not see" - Londo saves (will save)
: G'kar from Centauri prison, and it is later revealed that G'kar loses
: his eye (possibly while in the prison.) As payment, Londo will free
: Narn, and put an end to the Centauri occupation thereby furthering the
: AOL's cause.
Yeah, but this eye that Londo must save "does not see". So the eye
to be saved does not see in the first place. This hints it isn't
G'Kar's eye, as it does see, till it is wrecked.
I would have bought point 1 if the prophecy said, "you must save the
eye that saw".
Howard S Shubs
In article <328c9...@primary.ameritel.net>, jmi...@ameritel.net (Jeffrey
Milner) wrote:
>It seems to me that Lady Morella prophesied about three MORE chances and
>that he had two previously, but failed them. It doesn't follow that he must
>satisfy all THREE in order to save himself. So, to get to three - he DOES kill
>the one who is already dead, leaving two chances. He DOES NOT save the Eye
>that cannot see, leaving one chance. I do think we have witnessed already that
>one - surrendering his life to G'Kar to save Sheridan and Delenn.
Seems to me that we were shown that he actually does two of these things in
WWE2, namely he doesn't kill the one who is already dead, and he surrenders
to his greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy him (and it does). That
fear seems to be G'kar's hands around his neck.
--
Howard S Shubs hsh...@bix.com http://home1.gte.net/hshubs
The Denim Adept hsh...@gte.net Is this the right room for an argument?
De Castellvi Jaime M
Jeffrey Milner (jmi...@ameritel.net) wrote:
: In article <danimalE...@netcom.com>, dan...@netcom.com (Dan Siemens) wrote:
: >Paul Gesslein (pa...@lightlink.com) wrote:
: >: SPOILERS AHEAD FOR "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO MR. GARIBALDI!"
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
:
: It seems to me that Lady Morella prophesied about three MORE chances and
: that he had two previously, but failed them. It doesn't follow that he must
: satisfy all THREE in order to save himself. So, to get to three - he DOES kill
: the one who is already dead, leaving two chances. He DOES NOT save the Eye
: that cannot see, leaving one chance. I do think we have witnessed already that
: one - surrendering his life to G'Kar to save Sheridan and Delenn.
Exactly. In saving Sheridan -the One who is already dead, possible future
rebirths notwithstanding since he would still be dead in at least the
sense of what was surrendered to darkness-, he fulfills #2 in the future,
and shortly thereafter he appears to fulfill #3, by surrendering his life
to G'Kar, by giving in to the dream which he has fought against for too
long.
How, then, did he fail to save the Eye that Cannot See? This could refer
to the Centauri. The Eye is the symbol for the Emperor from the most
ancient days of the Republic, and the Emperor stands for the people.
Ergo the Eye stands for Londo's people. The current -Caligula, erm...
Carthagia- Emperor does not see the big picture, although he thinks that
he does. He sees only his own picture in the mirror. Does saving the Eye
that Cannot See refers to Londo saving his people or -for some odd reason-
saving Carthagia (not killing him)? I incline towards the former.
But the Eye could also refer to the Shadows. We already know about their
Eye (eyes, actually) from Ivanova's trip in Draal's machine and from the
White Star 2's visit to Z'Ha'Dum looking for Sheridan. It is an Eye
shaped like the lights which emanate from the Shadow's head, and it is
perhaps a projection of the Shadow's collective consciousness.
Unlike Lorien's Eye, neither the Shadows's -nor the Vorlons- really see it
all. Lorien sees beyond. The Shadows and the Vorlons seem traped in a
circle precluding evolution. They have both forgotten something. The
former are caught in the question "What do you want?" The latter cannot
stand that question (as per Sheridan once having asked Kosh and having
been warned not to do so ever again) and ask instead "Who are you?"
(through Jack). Without entering at this time in the -I think obvious-
universe views which each of these particular questions cause them to
impose upon themselves and upon the younger races as their tools for the
production of their respective worldviews, I will note that unlike then
Lorien is able to synthetize rather than oppose both questions. He can
see the bigger picture (greater than the sum of their parts). Thus
neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows can *really* see.
Kosh as the Vorlon Ambassador which hitches a piggy-back ride through
Sheridan's journey of self-discovery/self-denial with Lorien may now be
able to struggle to redeem his own people... if they will listen. But
there is no Shadow ambassador to Babylon 5. Londo is the closest thing
they have to a link to Sheridan, and to the fruits of his journey. Thus
on Londo may fall the responsibility to redeem the Shadows somehow and in
so doing, redeem himself (thus the symmetries would intertwine and
cross-fertilize rather than maintain an eventually sterile parallelism,
and thus Morden's statement about Mollari being his responsibility would
be reversed on him).
But saving the Shadows may be precisely Mollari's worst fear -as it
relates to his people- given the latter events. So again, the Crucible
never ends or rather, it is not as easily endured or conquered as it might
have seemed up to now.
Cheers,
Jaime
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Jaime M. de Castellvi ^ <<
>> 3c...@qlink.queensu.ca ^ 'That is not what I meant at all. <<
>> http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjmd ^ That is not it, at all.' (T.S.E.) <<
>>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\^//////////////////////////////////////<<
>> 'When my uncle saw the note, he tugged out the flag of his <<
>> handkerchief and blew such a hubbub of trumpets that the plates on <<
>> the dresser shook. "It's the same every year," he said. And then he <<
>> looked at me. "But this year it's different..." ' (D.T.) <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jeffrey Milner
In article <hshubs-ya0231800...@news.gte.net>, hsh...@gte.net (Howard S Shubs) wrote:
>In article <328c9...@primary.ameritel.net>, jmi...@ameritel.net (Jeffrey
>Milner) wrote:
>
>>that he had two previously, but failed them. It doesn't follow that he must
>>satisfy all THREE in order to save himself. So, to get to three - he DOES kill
>
>>the one who is already dead, leaving two chances. He DOES NOT save the Eye
>>that cannot see, leaving one chance. I do think we have witnessed already that
>
>>one - surrendering his life to G'Kar to save Sheridan and Delenn.
>
>WWE2, namely he doesn't kill the one who is already dead, and he surrenders
>to his greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy him (and it does). That
>fear seems to be G'kar's hands around his neck.
>
I think Lady Morella was describing five chances. Two are past but three have
yet to pass (at least, at the point she described them). The previous chances
probably had to do with Morden, and bombing the Narns back to the Stone Age.
My point being, he only has to fulfill ONE to save himself. Wish I had the
full prophecy - I'm pretty sure she says that two are gone but he still has
three left.
Eric Edwards
In rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, article <328c9...@primary.ameritel.net>, you wrote:
> In article <danimalE...@netcom.com>, dan...@netcom.com (Dan Siemens) wrote:
> >Paul Gesslein (pa...@lightlink.com) wrote:
> >: SPOILERS AHEAD FOR "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO MR. GARIBALDI!"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> It seems to me that Lady Morella prophesied about three MORE chances and
> that he had two previously, but failed them. It doesn't follow that he must
> satisfy all THREE in order to save himself. So, to get to three - he DOES kill
> the one who is already dead, leaving two chances. He DOES NOT save the Eye
> that cannot see, leaving one chance. I do think we have witnessed already that
> one - surrendering his life to G'Kar to save Sheridan and Delenn.
You are assuming that by not "kiling the one who is already dead" he will
not have the oportunity to "save the eye that does not see". There's no
evidence for that. Londo may fulfill all three chances for redemption,
even though he doesn't have to.
----
"..very sad life. Probably have very sad death. But there's symetry"
Remember the home hobbyist computer: Born 1975, died April 29, 1994