SW vs. Robotech/Macross - ground combat
The First Lord of the Dark Forces
Wars vs. Robotech/Macross scenario. SW tech information is derived from West
End Games' sourcebooks; the Robotech/Macross portion will draw from the
Robotech/Southern Cross/Sentinels/New Generation epic.
From my perusal of respective tech manuals, it is my impression that the
Empire has a serious technical deficiency. With the exception of speeder bikes
their vehicles seem slower and less responsive than their Robotech/Macross
opposites (remember the command interface!). For instance, REF hovertanks
(such as used by the 'Wolff Pack') are considerably more versatile than most if
not all Imperial assault vehicles. In terms of scout/raid troops, the edge
is again lost by the Empire (hint: Cyclones).
While all this is well and good, the critical factor in any discussion of this
kind is tactics. I have yet to really see a clear guide to Imperial ground
combat tactics (if anyone knows, enlighten us please!), RDF/REF tactics seem
considerably more fluid (akin to those of the Alliance, perhaps?)
-Arthur Edwards
edwa...@hartwick.edu
--
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Robotech_Master
points you didn't consider.
In comparing Robotech mecha (and let's drop the "Macross" because you seem
to be talking about all three Robotech generations, not just Macross) to
Star Wars equipment, you just seemed to look at speed and maneuverability.
However, there are other points to consider...
Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
fighters. (ie, snubfighters such as X-wings have hyperdrive systems built
in, making for much more easy deployment) Also, metal alloys would be
stronger, less receptive to damage, etc.
Armament: Star Wars ships tend to have energy weapons to the virtual
exclusion of all else. I'm not certain what proton torpedoes are (or even
if they're the same as the missiles of the same name in the Robotech RPG
book :) but they also seem to have some kind of energy connotation. As the
RPG says, slugthrowers are largely considered to be obsolete. However,
slugthrowers and regular missiles are what Robotech ships seem to be armed
with, for the most part. How effective would these be against Star Wars
metal alloys? How effective would they be against deflecter shields?
One advantage on the Robotech side in this respect would seem to be that
Star Wars missiles seem to have rather primitive guidance systems, if any at
all, while Robotech missiles can lock in on their targets. But Star Wars
missiles seem to be a great deal more powerful, as do their blaster weapons.
Shields: One measure of the technology difference between Robotech and Star
Wars is that almost all Star Wars fighters and starships (except for TIEs)
have deflector shields. In Robotech, shields are limited to the larger
starships and these tend to be only pinpoint barriers--only the SDFs
actually have what could be termed a true deflector shield. What effect
would these shields have on reducing Robotech weapons damage? Would the
GU-11 55mm cannon be effective at all?
Of course, one advancement that Robotech has over the Empire is in the field
of powered armor. Robotech Cyclones are small, fast, and very maneuverable.
The only armor suits that the Empire has, the ones the Space Stormtroopers
are outfitted with, seem to be large and clunky, and fairly limited in their
utility save for in a zero-gee environment. And the only "mecha" that the
Empire uses--AT-ATs AT-STs--are clumsy, clunky, wobbly, and rather prone to
falling over.
If the Battle of Hoth were replayed with the REF defending the ice world,
the REF would probably drive the Empire out. There didn't seem to be any
air-support on the Imperial side, unless you count the star destroyers in
orbit. The Valkyries and Legioses (Alpha/Betas) would rule in the air,
while hovertanks, Destroids, and Cyclones would take care of the AT-ATs and
ground troops. (This is assuming, of course, that the REF wouldn't have any
trouble adapting their mecha to the cold...)
Another question to consider is on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
work, and whether they could defeat the cloaking on the Shadow Fighters...
--
Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
Frank Dutkiewicz
of the Star Wars RPG myself, I seem to notice that most ground combat
operations on a large scale, the Empire focuses their attack with
walkers. Now, if the REF met on these terms, all they would have to do
is send out a few squadrons of destroids and push the walkers over!
If not, then nail them with long-range reflex warheads! Simply put,
the Empire would get pasted! Now why don't we talk about space battles?
Andrew King
(Robotech_Master) writes:
----------------text deleted------------------------
>--
>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
>
this ought to start a good one :>
Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
na...@stsci.edu
> It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
> with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
> are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
I thought that TIE Interceptors carried no shields or torpedoes.
BTW, for the sake of argument, I wonder how effective a projectile cannon
can be against fighters generally attacked at extreeme range with energy
weapons. Also, I would be very surprised if a Valkyrie can match the
acceleration curve of a dedicated space-fighter. And, since the Valks have
mostly been used to destroy the, what, 70ft tall Battlepods? I wonder if
they wouldn't have alot of trouble attacking the MUCH smaller TIE fighters.
--
_______ _______ ______ ______ Lord of the Flies
/ / / / na...@stsci.edu
\____ / \____ _____ / na...@mousse.gsfc.nasa.gov
/ / / / / na...@nemesis.stsci.edu
_____/ * / * _____/ \____ ___/__ http://sunset.bph.jhu.edu
na...@stsci.edu
> Another big problem...the size of the Death Star. It is the size of a
> small moon. The SDF-1 has no where NEAR the size/ fire power to take
> THAT out.
"What about the massive-Butt-Kickin' Foot-Stomping Belly-Busting,
Macross Cannon BUSTA Beeeeeaaaaam! Reflex-pseudo dimentional folding,
supercharged, massive-carnage, blow though solid-neutronium on a sunny
weekend afternoon, headbanger of a Big Gun the SDF-1 carries on its nose?"
--
_______ _______ ______ ______
John Hogg
>In <3l9vrq$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu
>(Robotech_Master) writes:
>----------------text deleted------------------------
>>--
>>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
>>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
>> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
>>
>this ought to start a good one :>
Oooh, I get to be first!
>Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
>If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
>mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
Ok, SDF-1's got range, buy DeathStar's got firepower. I believe it took
several hundred Zentraedi Battle Cruisers to level the majority of the Earth.
The Death Star took one shot and OBLITERATED a planet. Have the Death Star
hyperspace to one side for a few seconds as soon as SDF-1 appears on screen and
then recalculate to appear a few miles BEHIND her, and assuming she can't
maneuver out of the way, kiss the SDF-1 goodbye. The Death Star (second one)
has been used to engage in Station-to-ship attacks and blew away a Mon Cal
Cruiser in Return of the Jedi, however, the Star's targeting computer has
never been used on a ship trying to evade the big gun.
On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
John
mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Christopher L Kinnahan
: >Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
: >If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
: >mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
: Ok, SDF-1's got range, buy DeathStar's got firepower. I believe it took
: several hundred Zentraedi Battle Cruisers to level the majority of the Earth.
: The Death Star took one shot and OBLITERATED a planet. Have the Death Star
: hyperspace to one side for a few seconds as soon as SDF-1 appears on screen and
: then recalculate to appear a few miles BEHIND her, and assuming she can't
: maneuver out of the way, kiss the SDF-1 goodbye. The Death Star (second one)
: has been used to engage in Station-to-ship attacks and blew away a Mon Cal
: Cruiser in Return of the Jedi, however, the Star's targeting computer has
: never been used on a ship trying to evade the big gun.
: On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
: annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
: defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
All I have to say is Daedalus Manuever. SDF-1 would ram the Daedalus down that
shaft in RotJ, open up and have a ton of destroids firing at that reactor(?)
Chris K
The First Lord of the Dark Forces
(Robotech_Master) writes:
> An interesting discussion. However, I might mention that there are a few
> points you didn't consider.
>
> In comparing Robotech mecha (and let's drop the "Macross" because you seem
> to be talking about all three Robotech generations, not just Macross) to
> Star Wars equipment, you just seemed to look at speed and maneuverability.
> However, there are other points to consider...
True. However, I do recall mentioning that tactics would play an important
role as well; just that I didn't have that much info on Imperial procedures...
> Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
> technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
> fighters. (ie, snubfighters such as X-wings have hyperdrive systems built
> in, making for much more easy deployment) Also, metal alloys would be
> stronger, less receptive to damage, etc.
Hmmm... how big is something like an X-wing or TIE, anyway? You're right,
though: Alliance/New Republic fighters would have some sort of tactical
advantage due to hyperdrive; however, I was comparing the RDF/REF to Imperial
tech...
> Armament: Star Wars ships tend to have energy weapons to the virtual
> exclusion of all else. I'm not certain what proton torpedoes are (or even
> if they're the same as the missiles of the same name in the Robotech RPG
> book :) but they also seem to have some kind of energy connotation. As the
> RPG says, slugthrowers are largely considered to be obsolete. However,
> slugthrowers and regular missiles are what Robotech ships seem to be armed
> with, for the most part. How effective would these be against Star Wars
> metal alloys? How effective would they be against deflecter shields?
I don't know.
> One advantage on the Robotech side in this respect would seem to be that
> Star Wars missiles seem to have rather primitive guidance systems, if any at
> all, while Robotech missiles can lock in on their targets. But Star Wars
> missiles seem to be a great deal more powerful, as do their blaster weapons.
On the other hand, the RDF/REF has a greater variety of missile payloads,
allowing for more tactical options. (burst-explosive, armor-piercing, maybe
exotica like 'Stardust' and EMP...) And I really have no way to compare, say,
a VT's nose lasers to their conterparts on a TIE, sorry.
> Shields: One measure of the technology difference between Robotech and Star
> Wars is that almost all Star Wars fighters and starships (except for TIEs)
> have deflector shields. In Robotech, shields are limited to the larger
> starships and these tend to be only pinpoint barriers--only the SDFs
> actually have what could be termed a true deflector shield. What effect
> would these shields have on reducing Robotech weapons damage? Would the
> GU-11 55mm cannon be effective at all?
This is why the destabilizer was developed by the REF: for the specific job
of temporarily disrupting shields. Originally designed to knock down those
of Invid hives, a little field mod and the SD is in trouble.
> Of course, one advancement that Robotech has over the Empire is in the field
> of powered armor. Robotech Cyclones are small, fast, and very maneuverable.
> The only armor suits that the Empire has, the ones the Space Stormtroopers
> are outfitted with, seem to be large and clunky, and fairly limited in their
> utility save for in a zero-gee environment. And the only "mecha" that the
> Empire uses--AT-ATs AT-STs--are clumsy, clunky, wobbly, and rather prone to
> falling over.
My point exactly. Worse, there is an unofficial Shadow Cyclone variant that
uses fans instead of wheels... I'll have to dig up a back issue of Protoculture
Addicts for the stats...
> If the Battle of Hoth were replayed with the REF defending the ice world,
> the REF would probably drive the Empire out. There didn't seem to be any
> air-support on the Imperial side, unless you count the star destroyers in
> orbit. The Valkyries and Legioses (Alpha/Betas) would rule in the air,
> while hovertanks, Destroids, and Cyclones would take care of the AT-ATs and
> ground troops. (This is assuming, of course, that the REF wouldn't have any
> trouble adapting their mecha to the cold...)
That _is_ odd... why didn't the Imperials have air support? I kinda expected
it. And I believe the various RPGs state that RDF/REF mecha can function in a
wide variety of environments; only minor mods would be necessary for Hoth's
conditions...
> Another question to consider is on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
> work, and whether they could defeat the cloaking on the Shadow Fighters...
The Shadow stealth mods are designed to defeat detection by radar, IR, and
P'culture emissions; the only sure way to detect one, according to the manuals,
is by visual sighting... and in space, their coloration makes even that hard.
Which makes you wonder why you never saw 'camoflagued' Alliance fighters...
> --
> Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
> CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
> ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
S.G. Hagen
John Hogg <mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
> Have the Death Star
>hyperspace to one side for a few seconds as soon as SDF-1 appears
>on screen and then recalculate to appear a few miles BEHIND her, and
>assuming she can't maneuver out of the way, kiss the SDF-1 goodbye
Can any ship make hyperspace jumps so short with such percision?
Maybe they can, I'm not up on SW hyperspace pseudophysics.
I do seem to remember that one cannot make hyperspace jumps while in
a gravity well, at least in the RPG, while the SDF-1 can, much to other
people's distress, make space folds while in a gravity well.
Thus if the SDF-1 got to chose the battle field, and they could by
just refusing to fight the DS anywhere but a gravity well, they can deny
the DS the use of hyperspace.
An important point. Most people will pick their favourite to win and
find reasons after the fact. This renders this entire discussion somewaht
pointless but fun none the less.
******************************************************************************
We're here in engineering aboard the U.S.S Enterprise where we have replaced
the fine dilithium crystals they usually use with Folgers Crystals. Let's
see what happens.
******************************************************************************
Shawn Hagen
Shawn Southern
>Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
>If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
>mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
As would the SDF-3 from the DS's gun... We also don't know the strength of
the DS's shield system from Endor ('course, if the REF knocked it out first...)
Shawn Southern
>On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
>annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
>defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
Shawn Southern
>All I have to say is Daedalus Manuever. SDF-1 would ram the Daedalus down
that>shaft in RotJ, open up and have a ton of destroids firing at that
reactor(?)
One big problem: The SDF-1 has to get close enough first.
Shawn Southern
> An important point. Most people will pick their favourite to win and
>find reasons after the fact. This renders this entire discussion somewaht
>pointless but fun none the less.
Yeah, and what if I like BOTH? (Course in the SW vs ST debate, ST is
pathetic ;)
Donald Hill
: In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>,
: John Hogg <mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
: Can any ship make hyperspace jumps so short with such percision?
: Maybe they can, I'm not up on SW hyperspace pseudophysics.
: I do seem to remember that one cannot make hyperspace jumps while in
: a gravity well, at least in the RPG, while the SDF-1 can, much to other
: people's distress, make space folds while in a gravity well.
Although, according to the Star Wars RPG, the reason a ship can't go to
lightspeed near gravity wells, is because the computer has a safety
override that doesn't allow it. I assume you could somehow re-program it,
but then next time you hyperspace through some uncharted star, you'll
regret it. I tried to find hyperspace calculation times in the Star Wars
RPG book, but couldn't. [didn't look very hard.:)] I don't think, after
reading a few things about nav computers, that it would take long at all
to chart a straight line course a distance of what, 10000 miles, when you
can look out the window and *see* there are no stars, etc. All in all,
I'd say it would come down to whoever fired first. Roll initiative...
Unless, of course, the death star just went and blew up earth. (best
arguement against trekkies in star wars vs. star trek, btw.) not to
mention the sun crusher from the last trilogy. You hit the sun crusher
with the sdf-1. roll damage. it survives. *grin* it shoots your sun and
flys away.
And while ties and xwings and such are things to scuff the paint on a
veritech, things like corellian corvettes, nebulan B firgates, mon
calamari warships, imperial star destroyers, super star destroyers, and
the millineum falcon, that just can't die, :) [it even lived through
being killed in the original script! :)] would make life hard for the
veritechs and destroids.
- Justin
Donald Hill
: Armament: Star Wars ships tend to have energy weapons to the virtual
: exclusion of all else. I'm not certain what proton torpedoes are (or even
: if they're the same as the missiles of the same name in the Robotech RPG
: book :) but they also seem to have some kind of energy connotation. As the
: RPG says, slugthrowers are largely considered to be obsolete. However,
: slugthrowers and regular missiles are what Robotech ships seem to be armed
: with, for the most part. How effective would these be against Star Wars
: metal alloys? How effective would they be against deflecter shields?
Okay. in the SW RPG book, it states that there are two types of shields.
Particle shielding stops physical objects, and is *always* on, to stop
things like bedris and micro-meteroites, and such stuff. the only time
they are dropped is when the ship fires its own missiles and such. The
other kind of shielding is ray shielding. This stops energy attacks. However,
the problem is that even *with* shields the snub-fighters are weak. One or
two solid hits from a turbo-laser and they're gone. Also, 3 or 4 good
hits from another snub fighter will bring them down.
Given the mechas manuverability, I think they would pound the snub
fighters to dust. It doesn't matter that the B-Wing can take on capital
ships [in groups, of course. Not by itself. :)] with it's powerful front
laser, if the much more agile veritech is never in front of it.
The one thing everyone seems to be forgetting [unless it was mentioned
and I didn't see it] is Ion Cannons. Okay, so they don't do any damage.
But if the veritech can't move, it's gone. Y-Wings and Tie-Defenders and
Gunboats and [I think] B-wings can start disabling the veritechs while
ties and xwings and the bigger ships [corvettes, star destroyers, etc.]
keep them busy. [Star Destoryers can hit ground targets, and would have
pounded Hoth if they didn't have shields. The Imperials have a ship that
is designed to blast through planetary shielding. They probably would've
used it on Hoth, but then the movie would have ended early. :)]
The biggest advantage for SW is sheer numbers. The Zentradi would have
crushed the humans if they could have just attacked and weren't ordered
to *capture* SDF-1. The Empire could just keep throwing tie-fighters into
the fray as long as it took. The Dark Empire II comics have
Battle-Robots. But as yet I don't have any stats on them.
This whole thread is, I'm assuming, not taking the force into
consideration? That would change things considerably.
- Justin
Lord Doomfist
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!ts4-12.slip.uwo.ca!ccoxen
>From: cco...@julian.uwo.ca (Shawn Southern)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars,alt.tv.robotech,rec.games.mecha
>Subject: Re: SDF-1 vs Death Star (was Re: SW vs. Robotech)
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:06:26 LOCAL
>Organization: ITS, UWO
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>In article <3laubm$4...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> sail...@ix.netcom.com (Andrew King) writes:
>>Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
>>If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
>>mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
>As would the SDF-3 from the DS's gun... We also don't know the strength of
>the DS's shield system from Endor ('course, if the REF knocked it out first...)
Well, the Death Star would win MUCH because the range on the SDF-1 big gun is
60000 miles. Now if I recall, from Star Wars, when the Death Star blew up
Alderaan, the planet wasn't very big on the viewscreen. The Death Star would
probably have fired on it from about short range. So I figure, it could
probably shoot at something perhaps 2 moon-orbit radii, or about 500,000
miles. That was a wild guess but it makes sense. So I figure the DS would turn
the SDF-1 or 3 into so many charged particles. Another thing that is woe for
the Robotech boys is that their 'big gun' only has a 3 km diameter swath of
destruction. So the SDF-1 would have to fire right at the center in hopes of
penetrating through to the reactor. If it didnt, oh how nice, a nice 3 km
diameter shaft has been drilled through it. Another thing I just thought of is
would the big gun even get through the shields? I think the DS shields are
designed to take a blast from the DS superlaser. SO if the 'big gun' has the
power to eradicate a planet then it will not even spike the power levels on
the DS. What do you think?
**************************************************
Lord Doomfist
carpen...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu
Dominate!
... and crush the cabbages!
Donald T Keinath
Another big problem...the size of the Death Star. It is the size of a
small moon. The SDF-1 has no where NEAR the size/ fire power to take
THAT out.
Don Keinath University of Michigan
n...@engin.umich.edu Electrical Engineering
"The object of war is not to die for your country,
but to make the other bastard die for his."
--General George Patton
S.G. Hagen
Shawn Southern <cco...@julian.uwo.ca> wrote:
>It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
>with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
>are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
>torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
>energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
>which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
>would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
Well, according to the SW RPG, none of the TIEs have shields so that
is not a problem.
Here's another thing I found out. It is possible for a character to
take a hit from a starfighter class weapon and survive, not likely mind
you but, a dice cap of 2, but possible. That puts starfighter class
weapons and below into the SDC category if you were to try to convert SW
to palladium system. MDC kills humans automatically after all.
Take that a bit farther we can start saying that SW fighters are all
SDC vehicles. We might also be able to argue the huge amount of kinetic
energy in the Robotech weapons, MDC, could breach shields. Though this is
a rather tenuous argument. On the other hand since the SW fighter weapons
are SDC they couldn't be expected to really hurt the MDC mecha.
One would need capital ship weapons, which can be assumed to be MDC.
THat would really suck for the SW types, having to bring in cruisers just
to take out one lousy fighter. And a lousy fighter that in SW terms is
packing captial ship weapons. THe die cap for capital ships hitting
strafighter scale is pretty bad but its real easy for starfighters to
hit capital ships.
Of course this is trying to compare two incompataible gaminig systems
so it is impossible to make any hard and fast conclusions.
Robin Lim
Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
>technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
>fighters. (ie, snubfighters such as X-wings have hyperdrive systems built
>in, making for much more easy deployment) Also, metal alloys would be
>stronger, less receptive to damage, etc.
True, however, in general, things LOOK clunkier, so, IMHO, it would be
very difficult to find someone with the capability to build transforming
mecha. Designs also tend to emphasize functionality over form, unlike
your very stylish anime mecha. Power sources in Star Wars are most
likely very advanced, since I've never figured out what things are
powered by. The other thing that Robotech (allegedly) doesn't have is
anti-grav, but I could be wrong.
[snip]
>One advantage on the Robotech side in this respect would seem to be that
>Star Wars missiles seem to have rather primitive guidance systems, if any at
>all, while Robotech missiles can lock in on their targets. But Star Wars
>missiles seem to be a great deal more powerful, as do their blaster weapons.
Definitely, if the computer games are any judge, your proton torpedos
have difficulty hitting the side of a small moon. Due to their
similarity in name to a weapon from a certain OTHER sci-fi TV show, I
suspect proton torpedoes are launched as regular missiles, but they
slowly convert into energy. Mass-energy conversion would make sense as a
high-tech power source, and makes them significantly ahead of the
Robotech universe. However, if the RPG is any judge, blaster weapons in
Robotech are far more powerful, frying anything in a hit (1d6 MDC vs.
less than 100 hp/SDC). Still, the RPG is a poor judge of things.
Oh yes.. I forget, anime missiles also tend to have VERY poor guidance
systems. Missiles tend to be small, and they also tend to be released in
huge clouds which spiral towards the enemy.
>
[snip]
>
>Of course, one advancement that Robotech has over the Empire is in the field
>of powered armor. Robotech Cyclones are small, fast, and very maneuverable.
>The only armor suits that the Empire has, the ones the Space Stormtroopers
>are outfitted with, seem to be large and clunky, and fairly limited in their
>utility save for in a zero-gee environment. And the only "mecha" that the
>Empire uses--AT-ATs AT-STs--are clumsy, clunky, wobbly, and rather prone to
>falling over.
I'm not going to mention Darktroopers (gack!), but that's true. I don't
think the most advanced armor in the galaxy - Boba Fett's - has any
servos or anything. Just good damage resistance and hidden weapons.
>
>If the Battle of Hoth were replayed with the REF defending the ice world,
>the REF would probably drive the Empire out. There didn't seem to be any
>air-support on the Imperial side, unless you count the star destroyers in
>orbit. The Valkyries and Legioses (Alpha/Betas) would rule in the air,
>while hovertanks, Destroids, and Cyclones would take care of the AT-ATs and
>ground troops. (This is assuming, of course, that the REF wouldn't have any
>trouble adapting their mecha to the cold...)
Actually, any Valkyries or Legioses would be swiftly attacked by swarms
of Tie Fighters. How those would fare against mecha is a different
question entirely.
As for the ground battle, I think the plodding AT-ATs would be swiftly
blown away.
>
>Another question to consider is on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
>work, and whether they could defeat the cloaking on the Shadow Fighters...
Hrm, I suspect Star Wars sensors work in the same way as Star Trek
sensors :)
As for the cloaking device, there's only one cloaking device in the star
wars universe. And that kind works both ways. I suspect Shadow Fighters
would be easily detected (gravitic sensors? who knows)
>--
>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
--
-=-==-===-====-=====-========-====-==- "Don't tell me to control myself.
+=- Robin Lim AKA Leets -==+ I mean, you don't want me
+==- e-mail: lke...@io.org -=+ to control myself, do you?"
-==-====-========-=====-====-===-==-=- - MLWTTKK
qwerty
would be interested?
-V.
edwa...@hartwick.edu (The First Lord of the Dark Forces) writes:
|> As promised, here is my 'dissertation' of the terrestrial aspect of the Star
|> Wars vs. Robotech/Macross scenario. SW tech information is derived from West
|> End Games' sourcebooks; the Robotech/Macross portion will draw from the
|> Robotech/Southern Cross/Sentinels/New Generation epic.
|> From my perusal of respective tech manuals, it is my impression that the
|> Empire has a serious technical deficiency. With the exception of speeder bikes
|> their vehicles seem slower and less responsive than their Robotech/Macross
|> opposites (remember the command interface!). For instance, REF hovertanks
|> (such as used by the 'Wolff Pack') are considerably more versatile than most if
|> not all Imperial assault vehicles. In terms of scout/raid troops, the edge
|> is again lost by the Empire (hint: Cyclones).
|> While all this is well and good, the critical factor in any discussion of this
|> kind is tactics. I have yet to really see a clear guide to Imperial ground
|> combat tactics (if anyone knows, enlighten us please!), RDF/REF tactics seem
|> considerably more fluid (akin to those of the Alliance, perhaps?)
--
email: perf...@bnr.ca ---===*===--- UW OASys 99
Knight of the Cesium Order, Defender of the Planarian Way
My opinions are confiscated at the door. Any seen here are imposters.
Robotech_Master
The First Lord of the Dark Forces <edwa...@hartwick.edu> wrote:
>In article <3l9vrq$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu
>(Robotech_Master) writes:
>> Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
>> technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
>> fighters. (ie, snubfighters such as X-wings have hyperdrive systems built
>> in, making for much more easy deployment) Also, metal alloys would be
>> stronger, less receptive to damage, etc.
>
> Hmmm... how big is something like an X-wing or TIE, anyway? You're right,
>though: Alliance/New Republic fighters would have some sort of tactical
>advantage due to hyperdrive; however, I was comparing the RDF/REF to Imperial
>tech...
Yeah, Imperial TIEs don't have hyperdrive, being built to the same design
philosophy as Zentraedi pods...expendability. But other ships would, and
it's possible that the REF would come up against a force that used that type
of fighter.
>> Armament: Star Wars ships tend to have energy weapons to the virtual
>> exclusion of all else. I'm not certain what proton torpedoes are (or even
>> if they're the same as the missiles of the same name in the Robotech RPG
>> book :) but they also seem to have some kind of energy connotation. As the
>> RPG says, slugthrowers are largely considered to be obsolete. However,
>> slugthrowers and regular missiles are what Robotech ships seem to be armed
>> with, for the most part. How effective would these be against Star Wars
>> metal alloys? How effective would they be against deflecter shields?
>
> I don't know.
I wasn't specifically asking YOU, silly! I was suggesting these as
questions you might consider and/or philosophize on.
>> One advantage on the Robotech side in this respect would seem to be that
>> Star Wars missiles seem to have rather primitive guidance systems, if any at
>> all, while Robotech missiles can lock in on their targets. But Star Wars
>> missiles seem to be a great deal more powerful, as do their blaster weapons.
>
> On the other hand, the RDF/REF has a greater variety of missile payloads,
>allowing for more tactical options. (burst-explosive, armor-piercing, maybe
>exotica like 'Stardust' and EMP...) And I really have no way to compare, say,
>a VT's nose lasers to their conterparts on a TIE, sorry.
Actually, neither Valkyries nor Alphas have nose lasers. In both instances,
these weapons are actually due to animation errors. (The RPG is wrong about
a lot of other things, too...you really shouldn't take it at face value. If
you'd like to know more about what systems Veritechs REALLY (probably) have,
check the Robotech glossaries on ftp.std.com under
/pub/archives/anime-fan-works/Robotech/Operation-Reflex-Point.
As for the REF's variety of missile weapons, variety means very little if
they don't have the power to penetrate the enemy's armor.
>> Shields: One measure of the technology difference between Robotech and Star
>> Wars is that almost all Star Wars fighters and starships (except for TIEs)
>> have deflector shields. In Robotech, shields are limited to the larger
>> starships and these tend to be only pinpoint barriers--only the SDFs
>> actually have what could be termed a true deflector shield. What effect
>> would these shields have on reducing Robotech weapons damage? Would the
>> GU-11 55mm cannon be effective at all?
>
> This is why the destabilizer was developed by the REF: for the specific job
>of temporarily disrupting shields. Originally designed to knock down those
>of Invid hives, a little field mod and the SD is in trouble.
And what guarantee do you have that a Destabilizer would be effective
against Star Wars deflector shields at all, even with "a little field mod"?
SW shields could work on an entirely different principle than the Invids'
shields...
>> Of course, one advancement that Robotech has over the Empire is in the field
>> of powered armor. Robotech Cyclones are small, fast, and very maneuverable.
>> The only armor suits that the Empire has, the ones the Space Stormtroopers
>> are outfitted with, seem to be large and clunky, and fairly limited in their
>> utility save for in a zero-gee environment. And the only "mecha" that the
>> Empire uses--AT-ATs AT-STs--are clumsy, clunky, wobbly, and rather prone to
>> falling over.
>
> My point exactly. Worse, there is an unofficial Shadow Cyclone variant that
>uses fans instead of wheels... I'll have to dig up a back issue of Protoculture
>Addicts for the stats...
Shadow Cyclone. Ewww. Don't even mention that munchkinmecha.
>> If the Battle of Hoth were replayed with the REF defending the ice world,
>> the REF would probably drive the Empire out. There didn't seem to be any
>> air-support on the Imperial side, unless you count the star destroyers in
>> orbit. The Valkyries and Legioses (Alpha/Betas) would rule in the air,
>> while hovertanks, Destroids, and Cyclones would take care of the AT-ATs and
>> ground troops. (This is assuming, of course, that the REF wouldn't have any
>> trouble adapting their mecha to the cold...)
>
> That _is_ odd... why didn't the Imperials have air support? I kinda expected
>it.
Maybe they didn't think they needed it...though it is kind of strange,
considering that the Rebels had those airspeeders. Come to think of it, I
don't think I've ever seen an Imperial atmospheric fighter of any kind.
(And those scout bikes don't count.)
>And I believe the various RPGs state that RDF/REF mecha can function in a
>wide variety of environments; only minor mods would be necessary for Hoth's
>conditions...
Well, being of a higher technology base, presumably the airspeeders also
need "only minor mods," but they were still troublesome...in fact, the
reason that Luke (and later Han) went out on that critter was that the
landspeeders weren't ready yet. Regardless of what extent, modifications
would have to be made, and in Hoth situations, they could be something of a
nuisance to have to do.
>> Another question to consider is on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
>> work, and whether they could defeat the cloaking on the Shadow Fighters...
>
> The Shadow stealth mods are designed to defeat detection by radar, IR, and
>P'culture emissions; the only sure way to detect one, according to the manuals,
>is by visual sighting... and in space, their coloration makes even that hard.
>Which makes you wonder why you never saw 'camoflagued' Alliance fighters...
You kinda missed my point..."on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
work..." What if they have gravitic sensors, which can detect the minute
amount of curvature imposed by the mass of a Shadow Fighter on the spacetime
continuum? What if they have some kind of subspace or other advanced sensor
that works on a principle that Shadow designers didn't even know about and
wouldn't know how to defeat? It's a factor which you can't be certain of,
but which might cause some major problems in combat...
Andrew C. Kirby
> In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Hogg) writes:
> >On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
> >annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
> >defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
>
> with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
> are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
> torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
> energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
> which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
> would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
>
In many Robotech Episodes we see Rick shooting down missiles (whether superior to Empire missiles or no I do not know). Admittedly this is probably more because he was such an exceptional pilot (not to mention main character :), but on the other hand we see LOTS AND LOTS (pretty unlimited supply of VTs and pilots abord the SDF-1 eh? :) VTs getting wasted by elementary tactics. I would have to say it would be a close battle, but the TIEs are pure space fighers, wheras the Veritechs were multi-role superio
rity craft. And their lack of shields would make life very easy for the TIE pilots. But then again they showed enormous (the VTs) durability and manouverability.
A tough one at best
Andrew
Andrew King
(John Hogg) writes:
>
>sail...@ix.netcom.com (Andrew King) writes:
>
>>In <3l9vrq$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu
>>(Robotech_Master) writes:
>
>>----------------text deleted------------------------
>>>--
>>>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>>>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv
(bit.listserv.superguy)
>>>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
>>> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
>>>
>
>>this ought to start a good one :>
>
>Oooh, I get to be first!
>
>>Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
>>If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a
2000000
>>mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
>
>Ok, SDF-1's got range, buy DeathStar's got firepower. I believe it
took
>several hundred Zentraedi Battle Cruisers to level the majority of the
Earth.
>The Death Star took one shot and OBLITERATED a planet. Have the Death
Star
>hyperspace to one side for a few seconds as soon as SDF-1 appears on
screen and
>then recalculate to appear a few miles BEHIND her, and assuming she
can't
>maneuver out of the way, kiss the SDF-1 goodbye. The Death Star
(second one)
>has been used to engage in Station-to-ship attacks and blew away a Mon
Cal
>Cruiser in Return of the Jedi, however, the Star's targeting computer
has
>never been used on a ship trying to evade the big gun.
>
>On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less
than an
>annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat,
avenger, or
>defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other
ones.
>
>John
>mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
>
>
But as i said the range of the SDF-1's gun is somthing ridiculous like
2000000 miles. Can the DS sensors pick a therat up that far? And to boot
the SDF-1 <assuming the fold generators worked more than once> could
fold next to the DS and fold away spliting it in half ( l ) destroying
with out firing a shot :)
sailor
Andrew King
does anyone care to risk a lighting bolt on this one????
who else
Jeffrey Watkins
> Can any ship make hyperspace jumps so short with such percision?
>Maybe they can, I'm not up on SW hyperspace pseudophysics.
> I do seem to remember that one cannot make hyperspace jumps while in
>a gravity well, at least in the RPG, while the SDF-1 can, much to other
>people's distress, make space folds while in a gravity well.
There is also something about large obsticles and seeing as the SDF-1 is
a mile or more long, this would be condisered large. The safety of Hyper-
space near large objects is exceptionally low. However, Ol' Darth probably
wouldn't be too concerned about this when it came right down to it and would
attempt to ram through Hyper-space.
This could easily be repelled by the Full-Barrier system on the SDF-1 and I
Gloval and crew would be quite safe from this.
I doubt that either craft could withstand the power of the others guns, and
as they take about the same time to warm up, their chances of survival are
about equal.
I do feel that Darth and crew should be concerned about the suicide tactics
sometimes employed by Gloval. That Warp stunt he pulled could pose a serious
threat. For example, If the SDF-1 came within a certain distance of the DS
and executed a Warp, a portion of the Space Station would vanish along with the
SDF-1. I would think that this would seriously reduce the effectiveness of
the Death Star, infact I'd say it would destroy it.
--
--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Jeff WATKINS | I do have a project! I do I do! |
Curtin Student/part-time Mad Tutor. | |
"Self-appointed Creative thinking Expert." | |
and well rounded Weird Guy. | Creativity - Where does it come |
W.A. - Australia watk...@cs.curtin.edu.au | from? Where does it go? |
***** My Goals ****************************** How would one teach it? |
I'll find the ultimate cure for insanity if | |
only I knew where to look, then dispose of | The human mind is a glorious |
it for the good of Humanity! | thing. It has powers that we |
I'll put a nail through both hands then walk| use every day and never know. |
around saying "I'm the Chosen One!" | It has brought us this far, so |
I'll boldly do what everyone else has | How far will it go? |
attempted but have died in the process. | |
Who am I kidding! | "Stick in ear and wiggle." |
--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Rand
>>On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
>>annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
>>defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
>It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
>with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
>are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
>torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
>energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
>which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
>would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
TIE Interceptors have no shields. Super Veritechs use guided missles that
have a range of about 40-50 miles, but Alpha's and Beta's use shorter range
missles, but they are fast enough that they could catch TIEs within that
range. Most TIEs don't have Proton Torpedos, but even if they did Veritechs
could easily outrun them, because PTs are very slow.
In battle a group of any kind of Veritechs would just SHRED TIEs. VTs are a
hell of a lot faster and more manuerverable than TIEs. Also, TIEs guns are
fixed forward, while a VT in guardian mode can shoot anywhere. Hell, VTs are
so much faster they could just fly up behind a TIE and rip it's wings off,
saving ammo. Since all VTs have a large supply of guided missles, this
would allow a small group of VTs to wipe out a very large group of TIEs very
quickly by just launching all their missles.
Well, that's just my two bytes.
-L8r,
Rand
Rand
>As would the SDF-3 from the DS's gun... We also don't know the strength of
>the DS's shield system from Endor ('course, if the REF knocked it out first...)
Simple, fire one of the main guns at the shield generator from orbit, then
fire the other at the Death Star.
The SDF-3 has a much greater chance against the DS than the SDF-1, since it
has 2 reflex cannons and Sublight capability.
But, either way, one shot is all it takes (granted, the DS is way too big to
be completley destroyed by the reflex cannon, but i don't think it'd be much
of a threat with a hole 5 miles in diameter through it, that's GOTTA hit
something important).
-L8r,
Rand
donald TAKESHI mcfall
>2) SDF-1 would have VT series Veritech fighters (not Alphas or Betas).
> According to Robotech RPG, they can carry @6 long range missles or 12 med
> range missles in jet fighter mode, mounted on the wings like a conventional
> fighter. Without the book in front of me, I believe the range on long range
> missle was somewhere near 20 miles, this is a conservative guess. As far as
> warhead strength goes, the Reflex multi-warhead lrm (essentially a low-yield
> MIRV) did HUGE amounts of damage and could easily cut through all but the
> most powerful Zentraedi mecha with a near miss. The short range missles had
> the 1-5 mile range.
Wow, is that it? Even today, we have missiles that can engage targets over
100 miles away... you'd think ranges could really be increased in space...
__,__ Donald T. McFall
/ \ st...@jetson.uh.edu
John Hogg
>In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Hogg) writes:
>>On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
>>annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
>>defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
>It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
>with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
>are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
>torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
>energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
>which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
>would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
1) according to SWRPG, NONE of the TIE series fighters have shields, according
to Tie Fighter, the assault gunboat (not a tie series fighter), and two
experimental fighters, the avenger (a souped-up version of Vader's TIE with
a missle system and really weak tractor beam) and the defender (the TIE
equivilent of a B-wing, really tough)
Correction, I believe the SWRPG says Vader's tie may have had shields.
2) SDF-1 would have VT series Veritech fighters (not Alphas or Betas).
According to Robotech RPG, they can carry @6 long range missles or 12 med
range missles in jet fighter mode, mounted on the wings like a conventional
fighter. Without the book in front of me, I believe the range on long range
missle was somewhere near 20 miles, this is a conservative guess. As far as
warhead strength goes, the Reflex multi-warhead lrm (essentially a low-yield
MIRV) did HUGE amounts of damage and could easily cut through all but the
most powerful Zentraedi mecha with a near miss. The short range missles had
the 1-5 mile range.
Incidently, the imperial escort shuttles may be more of a match for VF veritechs
since they DO have shields. Unfortunately, they don't have a missle system.
John Hogg
>In article <3lbocr$2...@portal.gmu.edu> ckin...@osf1.gmu.edu (Christopher L Kinnahan) writes:
>>All I have to say is Daedalus Manuever. SDF-1 would ram the Daedalus down
>that>shaft in RotJ, open up and have a ton of destroids firing at that
>reactor(?)
>One big problem: The SDF-1 has to get close enough first.
Second problem: The second death star looked like a half-eaten apple, the core
was practically out in the open screaming hit ME!!!! A completed Death Star
would have several hundred (possibly thousand) meters of hull and internal
compartments to blast through before you even got NEAR the power core.
This is also assuming the shields are down.
However, the SDF-1 performing the Daedalus Maneuver IS a cool visual,
especially if you start thinking about all the little bubbles from the munitions
going off forming on the opposite side of the station just before a HUGE BOOM.
John
mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
John Hogg
Whole bunch of original argument snipped :)
>But as i said the range of the SDF-1's gun is somthing ridiculous like
>2000000 miles. Can the DS sensors pick a therat up that far? And to boot
> the SDF-1 <assuming the fold generators worked more than once> could
>fold next to the DS and fold away spliting it in half ( l ) destroying
>with out firing a shot :)
>sailor
Well, YEAH, but then Gloval's got to put up with a WHOLE CITY worth of grumpy
Imperial types, some of which are REALLY NASTY COMMANDOS!
THEN Lynn Minmei will end up singing a duo with the Max Rebo Band and drive the
whole ship nuts. Thus the SDF-1 while still having an intact hull, would be
turned into a giant space-folding PARANOIA game !!!!! :)
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!!!!!
:)
John,
who felt like using a bunch of caps
mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
S.G. Hagen
Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
>As for the REF's variety of missile weapons, variety means very little if
>they don't have the power to penetrate the enemy's armor.
That's the thing.
Looking at the SW RPG, which admitedly may not be the best source, it
is possible for a character to take a blast from a starfighter scale
weapon and survive. If I was converting the Star Wars stuff into Paladium
stats to stage these battles I would have to make the TIEs and X-Wings,
ect, ect, all SDC stuff with SDC weapons.
That would mean all the Star Wars stuff could hope to to was warm the
paint of veritechs with their weapons.
And because a starfighter can also survive a blast from a capital
ship, though it is unlikely, I would give captial ships MDC weapons but
on the very low end of the scale.
Of course trying to make conversions between SW RPG and Palladium is
probaly an exercise in futility.
Miyamoto Musashi
>In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>, mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Hogg) writes...
>>2) SDF-1 would have VT series Veritech fighters (not Alphas or Betas).
>> According to Robotech RPG, they can carry @6 long range missles or 12 med
>> range missles in jet fighter mode, mounted on the wings like a conventional
>> fighter. Without the book in front of me, I believe the range on long range
>> missle was somewhere near 20 miles, this is a conservative guess. As far as
>> warhead strength goes, the Reflex multi-warhead lrm (essentially a low-yield
>> MIRV) did HUGE amounts of damage and could easily cut through all but the
>> most powerful Zentraedi mecha with a near miss. The short range missles had
>> the 1-5 mile range.
>Wow, is that it? Even today, we have missiles that can engage targets over
>100 miles away... you'd think ranges could really be increased in space...
> __,__ Donald T. McFall
> / \ st...@jetson.uh.edu
Aha! The RPG books ARE usefull for something :)
With the books in front of me here are the ranges of missiles:
Short Range: 1/2 mile (Tear gas) to 5 miles (Armor Piercing)
Med. Range: 40 miles (several) to 80 miles (Multi-Warhead)
Long Range: 400 miles (Frag.) to 1800 miles (Reflex Multi-warhead)
Yes, that was a VERY conservative estimate :)
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| The views contained within are those of me, myself, and I. |
| (Not necessarily in that order, though) |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
irwi...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Miyamoto Musashi)
ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu
>As would the SDF-3 from the DS's gun... We also don't know the strength of
>the DS's shield system from Endor ('course, if the REF knocked it out first...)
:Simple, fire one of the main guns at the shield generator from orbit, then
:fire the other at the Death Star.
:as 2 reflex cannons and Sublight capability.
:but, either way, one shot is all it takes (granted, the DS is way too big to
:be completley destroyed by the reflex cannon, but i don't think it'd be much
:of a threat with a hole 5 miles in diameter through it, that's GOTTA hit
:something important).
generator can't be hit from orbit.
Second, off from the subject, the BIG super star destroyer from Dark Horse
comics DARK EMPIRE series could take on SDF-1, 2(if it hadn't been destroyed)
and 3 at the same time! (it was bigger than a planet! thats friggin HUGE!):)
Third, even further off the subject, the Dark Trooper from Lucasart's
DARK FORCES could spank those little old Cyclone bike/armor.
my $.2.
Allen
ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu
sw...@pomona.edu
>Ok, SDF-1's got range, buy DeathStar's got firepower. I believe it took
>several hundred Zentraedi Battle Cruisers to level the majority of the Earth.
>The Death Star took one shot and OBLITERATED a planet. Have the Death Star
>hyperspace to one side for a few seconds as soon as SDF-1 appears on screen and
>then recalculate to appear a few miles BEHIND her, and assuming she can't
>maneuver out of the way, kiss the SDF-1 goodbye. The Death Star (second one)
>has been used to engage in Station-to-ship attacks and blew away a Mon Cal
>Cruiser in Return of the Jedi, however, the Star's targeting computer has
>never been used on a ship trying to evade the big gun.
>mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
>
Ok if my memory serves me correctly, in star wars (part one) it took a long
time for the death star to maneuver correctly to destroy the planet and in
return of the jedi, the deah star destroyed the MOn cal cruiser becuase it was
boxed in by the death stars. Also it took a couple of minutes for the death
star to power up its gun (duuno if this is true for the death star in ROJ).
Anywaz, i really doubt that it could hyperspace as soon as it sees the sdf1 and
surprise her from the behind. Anywaz, one blast of the Sdf1's gun will
obliterate a hole right through the death star. Even though its big, i think
that would kinda hurt.
sw...@pomona.edu
Well, if i remeber the robotech series correctly and the RPG book correctly,
Lord Dolza'a base was over 900 miles tall but still the sdf1 with the help of
brettai, spanked the lights out of dolza's huge ship. Also, i dunno how many of
you have seen macross 2, but in the movie, which i highly recommend, the
Macross (sdf1) had main guns everywhere. One on each leg, one on each arm, one
on the top and one in the chest area (not sure about this one). well anywaz,
the macross shot all of these badboys at the momma of all zentrad ships but did
practically no damage at all. In retailation, that zentrad mother ship,
disintegrated the whole sdf1 with one shot.
So im guessin the death star is probably a little bigger than these two
zentradia momma ships. Thus, i guess its possible that the sdf1 can destroy the
death star but still, it'll be damn hard.
harold
sw...@pomona.edu
>Ok if my memory serves me correctly, in star wars (part one) it took a long
>time for the death star to maneuver correctly to destroy the planet and in
>return of the jedi, the deah star destroyed the MOn cal cruiser becuase it was
>boxed in by the death stars.
sorry, surrounded by star destroyers not death stars.
Robotech_Master
"Death Star vs Enterprise vs SDF-1 vs Yamato vs whatever" because they're
sick to death of that kind of thing. I think that matching the smaller
mecha is a hell of a lot more interesting than matching the big stuff, but
people will think that this is talking about the big stuff (which it isn't)
unless we stay on topic.
In article <bgaydek.7...@engin.umich.edu>,
Rand <bga...@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
>TIE Interceptors have no shields. Super Veritechs use guided missles that
>have a range of about 40-50 miles, but Alpha's and Beta's use shorter range
>missles, but they are fast enough that they could catch TIEs within that
>range. Most TIEs don't have Proton Torpedos, but even if they did Veritechs
>could easily outrun them, because PTs are very slow.
Are you sure we're talking about the same stuff here? I don't know how to
compare speeds, but the TIEs sure seemed a hell of a lot faster to me than
Veritechs did. Of course, that could be just a trick of the different
styles of special effects. But regardless of that, I was pretty sure that a
protorp was a damn fast rocket. But I'll be the first to say I could be
wrong.
>In battle a group of any kind of Veritechs would just SHRED TIEs. VTs are a
>hell of a lot faster and more manuerverable than TIEs. Also, TIEs guns are
This is kind of odd...I seem to recall from the SW sourcebooks that TIEs are
ultramaneuverable because of their ability to vector thrust (from their Twin
Ion Engines) in any direction. How would a standard fighter jet compare to
that?
>fixed forward, while a VT in guardian mode can shoot anywhere. Hell, VTs are
>so much faster they could just fly up behind a TIE and rip it's wings off,
>saving ammo. Since all VTs have a large supply of guided missles, this
>would allow a small group of VTs to wipe out a very large group of TIEs very
>quickly by just launching all their missles.
IF the TIEs couldn't somehow just evade by vectoring thrust to get them out
of the way...
Robotech_Master
S.G. Hagen <u884...@muss.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
> Looking at the SW RPG, which admitedly may not be the best source, it
>is possible for a character to take a blast from a starfighter scale
>weapon and survive. If I was converting the Star Wars stuff into Paladium
>stats to stage these battles I would have to make the TIEs and X-Wings,
>ect, ect, all SDC stuff with SDC weapons.
Um, no. You would have to convert both systems to something sensible, like
Mekton, which does not suffer from the seriously broken nature of
Palladium's megadamage system. From their large size, TIE fighter and other
starfighter scale weapons would be MDC. Thus, this means that it should be
possible for a character to take a hit from an MDC weapon and survive. :)
> That would mean all the Star Wars stuff could hope to to was warm the
>paint of veritechs with their weapons.
> And because a starfighter can also survive a blast from a capital
>ship, though it is unlikely, I would give captial ships MDC weapons but
>on the very low end of the scale.
> Of course trying to make conversions between SW RPG and Palladium is
>probaly an exercise in futility.
If you're so LITERAL about it, damn straight it is. :) That's the problem
with trying to convert between two systems when one of them Rather Seriously
Doesn't Work. :)
Robotech_Master
DISREGARDED as a source of information on the mecha and starships in the
show. Both are extremely full of errors when compared to the actual TV show
itself, and tend to ascribe to Robotech mecha weapons and properties it did
not have, or else over look weapons and properties that it DID have.
If you would like to find out what the technological specifications of the
mecha and starships are, take a look at the Operation Reflex Point
glossaries. These are spec files composed as a supplement for Peter
Walker's "Operation Reflex Point" fanfic, lovingly pieced together from the
TV show, source material for the original Japanese TV series, and even a
ruler and trigonometry where necessary.
These files reveal such interesting things as the fact that "Vindicators"
did not actually exist, and are, in fact, normal-sized Shadow Alphas. What
the RPG calls Shadow Alphas are actually unmanned drone fighters, which is
why Scott Bernard had no compunction about shooting at them in the final
episode.
These are the most technically accurate source of information I know of
about Robotech mecha. They can be obtained through FTP from
ftp://ftp.std.com/archives/anime-fan-works/Robotech/Operation-Reflex-Point/
Have fun...
Frank Dutkiewicz
> And what guarantee do you have that a Destabilizer would be effective
> against Star Wars deflector shields at all, even with "a little field mod"?
> SW shields could work on an entirely different principle than the Invids'
> shields...
From my understanding, all shields no matter which sci-fi serie your
speaking of, have very little effect in areas of extreme spacial turbulance.
The Destabilizer's do just that! Accourding to my sources, it creates
a field which does not allow any energy cohesion. If you can't focus
the energy, you can't erect a shield! A simple answer to this question.
Oh yeah, one more thing. Most of what I just said is probably bullshit,
but it sounds pretty cool.
Shawn Southern
>This whole thread is, I'm assuming, not taking the force into
>consideration? That would change things considerably.
Of course, there's the "Shapings" that Lang always spews about. Course, Lang
couldn't choke someone just by thinking about it (or could he!?!?).
//----------------------
//Shawn Southern
Justin Shipp
: Flame me for it but what the hell :)
: does anyone care to risk a lighting bolt on this one????
: who else
After Palpatine was simply IN HIS PRESENCE, he would die!!! No one can
look upon the face of God and live!
However, if God decided to *allow* Palpatine to live, it would be
somewhat laughable. Palpatine would be on his knees begging for death!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOHOHOHOHOHOHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Jabba laughs)
Kinda funny - no flame this time.....
Sam Krishna aka SAMBO!
Haan Solo
GOD wins, hands down
the force is strong BUT if it exists than GOD must be the
Grandest Jedi Master ever.
no, i am not very religous
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Bates
Binghamton University Internet: bd3...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
PO Box 6007
Dickinson #07266 Telephone: (607)-777-7338
Binghamton, NY 13902-6007
Noah J.D. Chinn
in art class I once saw this painting of God hanging over a city,
and it looked to me like he was giving it the Hogan Leg Drop!
That endeared the dude to me forever, so I'd say God gives the
Emperor a Sodem and Gemorra (sp) Hogan Leg Drop and toasts the
Emperor! (oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that I equated the city
in the painting made me think of those two cities God toasted
in the Old Testiment)
--
_____
____(_o_o_)____
UUU U UUU Alas, my friend, before you spoke
Kilroy was here, but his pencil broke.
Shawn Southern
> "What about the massive-Butt-Kickin' Foot-Stomping Belly-Busting,
>Macross Cannon BUSTA Beeeeeaaaaam! Reflex-pseudo dimentional folding,
>supercharged, massive-carnage, blow though solid-neutronium on a sunny
>weekend afternoon, headbanger of a Big Gun the SDF-1 carries on its nose?"
The SDF-1's main gun has a range of 60,000 miles (according to the RPG)
and fires a beam two miles wide. The Death Star is much larger than that,
and has extremely powerful shields.
btw. The TIE's in TIE Fighter appear to have shields.
//----------------------------
//Shawn Southern
Rand
>>have a range of about 40-50 miles, but Alpha's and Beta's use shorter range
>>missles, but they are fast enough that they could catch TIEs within that
>>range. Most TIEs don't have Proton Torpedos, but even if they did Veritechs
>>could easily outrun them, because PTs are very slow.
>Are you sure we're talking about the same stuff here? I don't know how to
>compare speeds, but the TIEs sure seemed a hell of a lot faster to me than
>Veritechs did. Of course, that could be just a trick of the different
>styles of special effects. But regardless of that, I was pretty sure that a
>protorp was a damn fast rocket. But I'll be the first to say I could be
>wrong.
Ok, i'm kinda peicing this together from sources that are pretty inconsistent,
but here goes: In the movie, proton torpedos were only used a few times.
According to both the RPG and the X-wing/TIE Fighter games they were too slow
to shot other fighters, they were meant for larger less maenuverable targets.
As far as speed goes, that's kinda iffy. According to the X-wing/TIE fighter
games, i would put the speed of TIEs around mach 1. Veritechs, on the other
hand, travel at over mach 7 in outer space. Even if my estimates on TIE
speeds are off by a factor of 2-4, that still leaves the VTs bieng between
four and two times as fast as a TIE
>>In battle a group of any kind of Veritechs would just SHRED TIEs. VTs are a
>>hell of a lot faster and more manuerverable than TIEs. Also, TIEs guns are
>This is kind of odd...I seem to recall from the SW sourcebooks that TIEs are
>ultramaneuverable because of their ability to vector thrust (from their Twin
>Ion Engines) in any direction. How would a standard fighter jet compare to
>that?
Super veritechs have maenuvering jets on their arms and legs, and Alpha
fighters are supposed to be very manuverable. Even so, a VT in jet mode
probably couldn't outmanuver a TIE, but in Guardian they would be a hell of a
lot more manuverable wouldn't have to worry about fixed firing positions.
Think about it, if a TIE passes you it would have to turn around to shoot at
you again, but a VT on G mode could just turn the other way fire away. Also,
TIEs can't hover like a VT can. They may be manuverable, but they still have
to have a forward thust to be able to turn.
>>fixed forward, while a VT in guardian mode can shoot anywhere. Hell, VTs
are >>so much faster they could just fly up behind a TIE and rip it's wings
off, >>saving ammo. Since all VTs have a large supply of guided missles,
this >>would allow a small group of VTs to wipe out a very large group of
TIEs very >>quickly by just launching all their missles.
>IF the TIEs couldn't somehow just evade by vectoring thrust to get them out
>of the way...
That's where the GUIDED part comes in. If the missles miss, they would just
circle around and come back. Assuming my estimates of SW to RT speed is even
remotely accurate, the TIE would be toast pretty fast or they would have to
spend so much time avoiding the missles that they would be vulnerable to
another attack.
Also, fighting a RT mech is ALOT different than fighting a SW fighter. A TIE
pilot would have to adapt to fighing mech that are unlike any they have fought
before. RT mechs are faster, more manuverable, can hover in space, and don't
have fixed forward firing. It would require quite different strategies. RT
pilots, at least ones that would be in a Super VT, are mostly old GCW veterans
who would be quite used to fighting fighters like TIEs.
Well, that's my two bytes. Like i said, i'm doing my best to piece this info
together from relativly inconsistent and incompatible sources, so don't flame
my speed/manuverability conversions, 'cause no one's come up with anything
better.
-L8r,
Rand
S.G. Hagen
Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>Are you sure we're talking about the same stuff here? I don't know how to
>compare speeds, but the TIEs sure seemed a hell of a lot faster to me than
>Veritechs did. Of course, that could be just a trick of the different
>styles of special effects. But regardless of that, I was pretty sure that a
>protorp was a damn fast rocket. But I'll be the first to say I could be
>wrong.
According to the starwars RPG 2nd edition and the Robotech RPG, the
Valkiries are approximitely four times faster than the TIE Interceptors
in atmosphere.
No idea how to compare maneuverability.
Shawn Southern
>Simple, fire one of the main guns at the shield generator from orbit, then
>fire the other at the Death Star.
'Course, it has to get through the shield to get at the shield generator.
>The SDF-3 has a much greater chance against the DS than the SDF-1, since it
>has 2 reflex cannons and Sublight capability.
Granted.
>But, either way, one shot is all it takes (granted, the DS is way too big to
>be completley destroyed by the reflex cannon, but i don't think it'd be much
>of a threat with a hole 5 miles in diameter through it, that's GOTTA hit
>something important).
But, the SDF-3's guns have a range of 120,000 miles. the DS's guns have a much
longer range. Don't bring up that the SDF-3 could jump in close, since that's
not REF procedure, and very dangerous to do (ie. they could materialize inside
Endor, which, although it may destroy the shield generator, wouldn't do much
to the DS.
//-----------------------
//Shawn Southern
na...@stsci.edu
> btw. The TIE's in TIE Fighter appear to have shields.
How so? I thought they specifically had no shields.
--
_______ _______ ______ ______
/ / / / na...@stsci.edu
\____ / \____ _____ / na...@mousse.gsfc.nasa.gov
/ / / / / na...@nemesis.stsci.edu
_____/ * / * _____/ \____ ___/__ http://sunset.bph.jhu.edu
Mark Browning
In a previous article, mai...@ug.cs.dal.ca (Andre' Maillet) says:
>On Thu, 30 Mar 95 10:12:17 CST, ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu wrote:
>:>
>:>Second, off from the subject, the BIG super star destroyer from Dark Horse
>:>comics DARK EMPIRE series could take on SDF-1, 2(if it hadn't been destroyed)
>:>and 3 at the same time! (it was bigger than a planet! thats friggin HUGE!):)
>:>Third, even further off the subject, the Dark Trooper from Lucasart's
>:>DARK FORCES could spank those little old Cyclone bike/armor.
>:>my $.2.
>
>Recall that in Return of the Jedi, the Executor (the super star destroyer
>class vessel, the only one in existence at the time,) was destroyed in
>the following way.
>
>1) Several Bwings and Ywings did torpedo runs to destroy the shield
>projectors (the two spherical towers on the top of the bridge column.)
>The first was destroyed on screen by a Ywing, which survived the run,
>I think. Not sure there. Main reason they were able to was the fact that
>the Executor was more worried about the MonCalamari cruisers than the
>fighters. The TIEs were in charge of taking out the fighters.
>
>2) The shields were down, while they were busy trying to bring the shields
>back up, a dying A-wing did a suicide run and crashed into the bridge,
>damaging the guidance system of the Executor.
>
>3) Coincidentally, the guidance system called for a hard left turn and the
>Executor crashed into the death star, doing massive damage to the death
>star and finishing off the Executor.
>
>All star destroyers were built with the same design flaw (yes flaw) that put
>the projectors in towers that are easily attaignable. The only reason it's
>damn near impossible for a fighter to reach those towers to destroy them
>is the fact that there are many upon many anti-fighter turbolasers waiting
>to eat them for breakfast.
>
>So, about 4 Ywings, about 4 Bwings and an Awing took out a super star
>destroyer. I think veritechs could do a similar job.
>
>Frankly, I think the superstar destroyer would not survive a shot from
>the main gun of the sdf-1, but I don't think the SDF would survive too
>long against the guns of the Executor either.
>
>Remember that Breetai was very careful not to damage the SDF. If he wanted
>the micronians dead, they would have been dead.
>
>Andre'
>--
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Andre' M. Maillet | "The Universe is but a screen-saver, |
>| mai...@ug.cs.dal.ca | waiting for God to twitch." |
>| dj...@is.dal.ca | - Paul Eric Lagace', 1994 |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>DISCLAIMER: Add any standard, non-standard, usual, unusual, wild and
>crazy disclaimers that you feel are appropriate. Smileys as needed.
>
1. Admiral Ackbar orders several cruisers to concentrate more firepower
on the Super-Class SD(one of four in service at the time, prehaps more),
while the SSD is defending itself, three A-wings come in one of the
shield generators, using six concussion missiles, they acually manage to
destroy the generator, the SSD loses its bridge deflector shield(bridge
mind you), the incompetent Admiral of the ship, orders to intensify
forward firepower in order for none of the fighters to get through to
the bridge.. An X-wing and A-wing are flying on the surface of the SSD,
the X-wing is destroyed and the A-wing is damaged, and out of control,
heading straight for the command tower, hitting it, blowing right
through.. The ENTIRE(need the letterbox version for this)command tower
explodes, which obviously takes the engine room with it since the
engines are on fire on the way down, as the SSD drops into the Death
Star, pulled by the gravity of Endor, and also totally out of control..
And there wasn't much massive damage done to the DS, it rocked, thats
all, and it wasn't even a finished DS..
2. Do you think, that after that flaw is discovered by the Imperials
they would even ALLOW anyone to exploit it again?
3. Just remember the SDF-1 gets one shot(a big shot), but thats all,
after that unless they have the full shield system, and not the pin
point barrier system, Lets see if the V-techs can catch 200 or so
concussion and proton torpedos..
--
-=Mark=- "The regional governers now have direct control over
territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this
battle station." -Tarkin, ANH
no one of consequence
What about the ramming attack the SDF-1 used to get inside Dolza's
fortress? :-)
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|
|Member Lovely Angels Fan Club/Fire Support Team/Cleanup Crew |
|"Weep for the future, Na'Toth. Weep for us all..." G'Kar, "Revelations"|
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article....|
Andre' Maillet
etp...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu
>
>In article <ccoxen.59...@julian.uwo.ca>, cco...@julian.uwo.ca (Shawn Southern) writes:
>> In article <3lbocr$2...@portal.gmu.edu> ckin...@osf1.gmu.edu (Christopher L Kinnahan) writes:
>>
>> >All I have to say is Daedalus Manuever. SDF-1 would ram the Daedalus down
>> that>shaft in RotJ, open up and have a ton of destroids firing at that
>> reactor(?)
>>
>> One big problem: The SDF-1 has to get close enough first.
>
>small moon. The SDF-1 has no where NEAR the size/ fire power to take
>THAT out.
>
>Don Keinath University of Michigan
>n...@engin.umich.edu Electrical Engineering
>"The object of war is not to die for your country,
> but to make the other bastard die for his."
> --General George Patton
>
they did a number on dolza's command carrier and it was SIGNIFICANTLY larger
than the sdf-1 besides, if they did that extended deadalus they could just keep
flying around and blasting things till the Death Star was history, there is no
was they could fire on it if it was inside them.
Christopher A. Lisy
: >> Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
: >> technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
My own personal thoughts here, but it has always seemed to me that
Robotech is a bit more advanced than Star Wars. I don't recall anything
in the SW universe that can transform from a plane to a giant robot, with
an interface with the pilots brain. OOOOOOOOOOHHHH, could you imagine a
Jedi Knight in any of the Robotech mecha? Could you imagine the sort of
things they could be doing? COOL!
--
Chris
cl...@ashland.edu or
gr...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
And Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?"
They replied, "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground
of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very
selfhood revealed."
And Jesus replied, "What?"
John Hogg
snip :)
>Are you sure we're talking about the same stuff here? I don't know how to
>compare speeds, but the TIEs sure seemed a hell of a lot faster to me than
>Veritechs did. Of course, that could be just a trick of the different
>styles of special effects. But regardless of that, I was pretty sure that a
>protorp was a damn fast rocket. But I'll be the first to say I could be
>wrong.
Watch Luke fire his proton torps at the Death Star's exhaust port in the first
movie. They barely move faster than his fighter.
>>In battle a group of any kind of Veritechs would just SHRED TIEs. VTs are a
>>hell of a lot faster and more manuerverable than TIEs. Also, TIEs guns are
>This is kind of odd...I seem to recall from the SW sourcebooks that TIEs are
>ultramaneuverable because of their ability to vector thrust (from their Twin
>Ion Engines) in any direction. How would a standard fighter jet compare to
>that?
The Harrier, an actual fighter used by the US Marines (flown by Arnie in True
Lies) uses vectored thrust along with many military VTOL and STOL (Vertical or
Short Take Off and Landing) aircraft today. Folowing the robotech timeline,
the VF veritechs were first built circa 2005 I believe. Therefore, I think
it's a good bet Veritechs have vectored thrust. Especially when they can
suddenly move their engines from all the way behind them to all the way
in front of them (swing the legs in guardian mode). VF veritechs can nearly
stop on a dime in this manner, TIEs still glide a ways.
>>fixed forward, while a VT in guardian mode can shoot anywhere. Hell, VTs are
>>so much faster they could just fly up behind a TIE and rip it's wings off,
>>saving ammo. Since all VTs have a large supply of guided missles, this
>>would allow a small group of VTs to wipe out a very large group of TIEs very
>>quickly by just launching all their missles.
>IF the TIEs couldn't somehow just evade by vectoring thrust to get them out
>of the way...
Or do other standard and predictible evasive maneuvers. Veritechs have proto-
culture. This gives them the ability to bond with their pilots and react
nearly as fast as thought. A veritech pilot doesn't think about moving the
stick right in the cockpit, he thinks of moving right and does so nearly
instantaneously.
John
mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
henry bramlet
The SDF-? through whatever means, folds into some other galaxy
a LOOOONG LOONNG time ago. It notices a giant metal moon baring down at
it. Communications with said moon determine that the SDF is sorta lost.
Well, the nice leader of this Death Star, one Darth Vader is happy
to come over and discuss the situation with the SDF's commander. After all,
who would want to destroy souch a beautifull peice o machinery as a Super
Dimensional Fortress. The good Mr Vader also brings his bennevolant leader,
Paulpatein. They all welcome this diplomatic party with full hooplah.
Commander of SDF: Hello, Darth Vader.
DV: Hello, brave commander.
EP:Yes. Hello, brave commander. <cackle>
COSDF: I would like to begin work on getting my people home.
EP: No...You want to integrate your ship into the Empire's fleet.
COSDF: ...I want to integrate my ship into the Empire's Fleet.
Leutennant COSDF: Sir, what are you saying?
DV: <Pinchy fingers come up>
LCOSDF: ACK! <Thump>
COSDF: John! No...What have you done!??! You killed him.
EP: It needed to be done. He was a traitor.
COSDF: ...He was a traitor...It needed to be done.. . . ..
EP: Your people will reward you for your loyalty.
COSDF: .. . ...My people will..reward me....
EP: It is your destiney.
COSDF: It is my destiney....
No contest! 8)
Henry Bramlet
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE FORCE!
Kevin E. Allen
: In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>,
: John Hogg <mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
: >Or do other standard and predictible evasive maneuvers. Veritechs have proto-
: >culture. This gives them the ability to bond with their pilots and react
: >nearly as fast as thought. A veritech pilot doesn't think about moving the
: >stick right in the cockpit, he thinks of moving right and does so nearly
: >instantaneously.
: I'm afraid not. That whole "mental symbiosis" thing is a crock, foisted
: upon Robotech fans by James Luceno (1/2 of Jack McKinney) in his attempt to
: turn Robotech into some kind of half-baked copy of the Dune saga. I'm
: sorry, but there is no evidence for mental control of Valkyries, and a good
: deal of evidence against it. For example, the same Valkyries do the exact
: same maneuvers with the exact same proficiency in the original Macross TV
: show, and they had no "protoculture" (as a power source, anyway) OR mental
: control in that. (And as a further proof that they had no mental control
: there, it was later DEVELOPED in Macross Plus.)
: Valkyries/Veritechs have no mental control. They have an "automatic control
: system" that essentially automates the robot's motion. And protoculture is
: not the mystic force of the universe that it's made out to be in McKinney's
: books.
The major difference here is that Valkyries and Veritechs are NOT the
same thing. Look the same, shoot the same, whatever, they are most
definately NOT the same.
Perhaps Macross has made some sort of a scientific attempt at
explaining how the mecha works - Robotech has not. Personally, I tend to
think that anyone who argues against something such as mental control, or
a substance such as protoculture, while doing so from a source which
includes 60-foot humanoids and spacefolding, is just ASKING for trouble.
Face it, this stuff is science FICTION. While there is an underlying
basis of SCIENCE, the FICTION is there for the author to do with as he
pleases, which is what makes all this possible. Hell, mecha are such an
incredibly improbable creation, arguing science with them is just
slightly short of insane. But that is another thread, and I will leave
it there.
But nothing at all in McKinney's books has contradicted anything in
the TV Robotech, or even in the sourcebooks. I know, I am a student of
them in the extreme. Perhaps I fall short of some of the purists because
I have not seen much of the original Macross but hey, we all have our
preferences.
- K. Allen
Robotech_Master
>Or do other standard and predictible evasive maneuvers. Veritechs have proto-
>culture. This gives them the ability to bond with their pilots and react
>nearly as fast as thought. A veritech pilot doesn't think about moving the
>stick right in the cockpit, he thinks of moving right and does so nearly
>instantaneously.
I'm afraid not. That whole "mental symbiosis" thing is a crock, foisted
upon Robotech fans by James Luceno (1/2 of Jack McKinney) in his attempt to
turn Robotech into some kind of half-baked copy of the Dune saga. I'm
sorry, but there is no evidence for mental control of Valkyries, and a good
deal of evidence against it. For example, the same Valkyries do the exact
same maneuvers with the exact same proficiency in the original Macross TV
show, and they had no "protoculture" (as a power source, anyway) OR mental
control in that. (And as a further proof that they had no mental control
there, it was later DEVELOPED in Macross Plus.)
Valkyries/Veritechs have no mental control. They have an "automatic control
system" that essentially automates the robot's motion. And protoculture is
not the mystic force of the universe that it's made out to be in McKinney's
books.
Robotech_Master
Christopher A. Lisy <cl...@sol.ashland.edu> wrote:
>
>: >> Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
>: >> technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
>
>My own personal thoughts here, but it has always seemed to me that
>Robotech is a bit more advanced than Star Wars. I don't recall anything
I don't think so...
WE have turbine-powered jets. THEY have antigravity, ion drives, and other
stuff that we don't even know about.
WE have a spacefold system that vanished the first time it was ued. THEY
have hyperdrive, and can put it on even the smallest starfighter.
WE have slugthrowing weapons on most of our mecha. THEY have energy weapons
that make slugthrowers totally obsolete.
WE have ONE android--Janice Em. THEY have thousands or millions of them.
>in the SW universe that can transform from a plane to a giant robot, with
>an interface with the pilots brain. OOOOOOOOOOHHHH, could you imagine a
>Jedi Knight in any of the Robotech mecha? Could you imagine the sort of
>things they could be doing? COOL!
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Robotech doesn't have any mecha that
interface with the pilot's brain either, unless you count the Bioroids from
Southern Cross. See my responses elsewhere within this thread on that
subject.
Mark Browning
In a previous article, mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Hogg) says:
>cco...@julian.uwo.ca (Shawn Southern) writes:
>
>>In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Hogg) writes:
>>>On a smaller scale, a tie fighter is no mach for a Destroid, and less than an
>>>annoyance against a Veritech fighter. Maybe an assault gunboat, avenger, or
>>>defender from Tie Fighter would stand a chance, but none of the other ones.
>
>>It would depend on the weapons. The VT's have no shields, use guided missiles
>>with a range of one to 5 miles, and have the GU-XX. TIE Interceptors, if they
>>are less maneuverable than VTs (probably) have shield systems, guided proton
>>torpedos (range unknown - someone clarify please) and have fairly powerful
>>energy guns. As long as the GU-XX & missiles can get through TIE shields,
>>which I don't think they could, the VTs would win. Otherwise, the Empire
>>would eventually win the battle, even though it would take longer.
>
>1) according to SWRPG, NONE of the TIE series fighters have shields, according
> to Tie Fighter, the assault gunboat (not a tie series fighter), and two
> experimental fighters, the avenger (a souped-up version of Vader's TIE with
> a missle system and really weak tractor beam) and the defender (the TIE
> equivilent of a B-wing, really tough)
> Correction, I believe the SWRPG says Vader's tie may have had shields.
>2) SDF-1 would have VT series Veritech fighters (not Alphas or Betas).
> According to Robotech RPG, they can carry @6 long range missles or 12 med
> range missles in jet fighter mode, mounted on the wings like a conventional
> fighter. Without the book in front of me, I believe the range on long range
> missle was somewhere near 20 miles, this is a conservative guess. As far as
> warhead strength goes, the Reflex multi-warhead lrm (essentially a low-yield
> MIRV) did HUGE amounts of damage and could easily cut through all but the
> most powerful Zentraedi mecha with a near miss. The short range missles had
> the 1-5 mile range.
>
>Incidently, the imperial escort shuttles may be more of a match for VF veritechs
>since they DO have shields. Unfortunately, they don't have a missle system.
>
>John
>mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
>
>
>
>
Unfortunetly you have not gotten the HTTE Sourcebook, TIE Interceptors
were fitted with shields, along with Scimitar Assault bombers, make that
the DFR Sourcebook..
S.G. Hagen
Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
>If you're so LITERAL about it, damn straight it is. :) That's the problem
>with trying to convert between two systems when one of them Rather Seriously
>Doesn't Work. :)
Okay, after giving it some thought, how about this.
In episode 1 or 2, I think, we see a Valkerie crash through several
buildings and come out of it more or less little the worse for ware.
What effect would crashing through several buildings have on an
X-Wing or a TIE fighter? The shields of the X-Wing may allow it to
survive such a crash, may. The TIE fighter will most likely be reduced to
a firey ball and wreckage.
The SDF-1 crashes on a planet, and in the end is little the worse for
ware, well it was pretty beat up but not so much that it could not be
rebuilt.
Try to land a star destroyer and see what happens.
Using this as the conversion I think we could say with some confidence
that the Robotech stuff is several degrees of magnitude tougher than the
Star Wars stuff. We can expand this to say that the Robotech weapons are
also several degrees of magnitude stroger than Star Wars. After all,
Robotech ships are continually blowing the snot out of each other.
Just some thoughts.
Alexander Williams
Christopher A. Lisy, replying to the mystic words as written, saying:
>an interface with the pilots brain. OOOOOOOOOOHHHH, could you imagine a
>Jedi Knight in any of the Robotech mecha? Could you imagine the sort of
>things they could be doing? COOL!
Reminds me of the Murian Knights from the Mekton II basic Algolian
setting. Chaste warriors fighting for reasons that are unknown to
the populace at large, in huge, battle-scarred mecha using
technology the other mecha-using powers can only dream of.
In fact, let me get my book out...
The Excalibur is a 113 tonne mech used by the Murian Knights on
Algol, and just happens to carry /two/ two-handed nova beam sabers,
or, in other words, two godawfulhuge light sabers. Mind you, the
mech is only several thousand years old and left-over technology
from the original Imperial crash-landing, but ain't it always the
way?
--
tha...@runic.mind.org (Alexander Williams) | PGP 2.6 key avail
Should we shed our mental pants and compare | DF 22 16 CE CA 7F
the size of our consciousnesses? | 98 47 13 EE 8E EC
Jan Sand to Marvin Minsky | 9C 2D 9B 9B
John Hogg
>In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>,
>John Hogg <mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
>>Or do other standard and predictible evasive maneuvers. Veritechs have proto-
>>culture. This gives them the ability to bond with their pilots and react
>>nearly as fast as thought. A veritech pilot doesn't think about moving the
>>stick right in the cockpit, he thinks of moving right and does so nearly
>>instantaneously.
>I'm afraid not. That whole "mental symbiosis" thing is a crock, foisted
>upon Robotech fans by James Luceno (1/2 of Jack McKinney) in his attempt to
>turn Robotech into some kind of half-baked copy of the Dune saga. I'm
>sorry, but there is no evidence for mental control of Valkyries, and a good
>deal of evidence against it. For example, the same Valkyries do the exact
>same maneuvers with the exact same proficiency in the original Macross TV
>show, and they had no "protoculture" (as a power source, anyway) OR mental
>control in that. (And as a further proof that they had no mental control
>there, it was later DEVELOPED in Macross Plus.)
>Valkyries/Veritechs have no mental control. They have an "automatic control
>system" that essentially automates the robot's motion. And protoculture is
>not the mystic force of the universe that it's made out to be in McKinney's
>books.
>--
>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
OK, correct me if I'm wrong (boy what an invite!)
1) We're discussing ROBOTECH (not Macross) Vs Star Wars, right?
2) Robotech and Macross are 2 different plots, right?
3) Therefore, while veritechs are identical in appearance to Valkyries, because
a plot difference exists Veritechs CAN work different than Valkyries
4) wasn't protoculture the whole reason the Zentraedi came after the SDF-1
in the Robotech (not Macross) series? Therefore, how can protoculture be
something not cannon, as it's a HUGE plot device in Robotech?
I suppose this could become another thread ...
Oh well, this newsgroup needs a boost in traffic!
Eugene Leung
utmwi...@cc.memphis.edu wrote:
>In article <D6A8s...@cs.dal.ca>, mai...@ug.cs.dal.ca (Andre' Maillet)
writes:
>The Star Wars and Robotech universes both have the same quirk: The good guys
>always win in the end, regardless of how impossible the odds.
>As we all know, the Empire consists entirely of "bad guys," while the SDF-1
is
>crewed entirely by "good guys." The only logical conclusion is that Gloval
and
>crew could not possibly lose.
>See?
>
Um, is being rammed into little tiny pieces by Khyron's kamikaze cruiser
(end of american Macross series) called winning? Sure the REF survived,
but...
Ciao, Eug
Robert Culpepper
(that is until the SciFi Channel (thank all Gods) picked it up a while
ago. Now, to the point.
The SDF-1 could easily take out the Death Star (either Star Wars or Jedi)
and here's the reason. Remember the Dateless (sp?) maneuver? The big arm
comes up and goes right through the enemy ship. The SDF-1 could easily do
the same thing. Another thing to look at is that the SDF-1 had the mecha,
something the Aliance didn't have. The X-Wings, B-Wings and A-Wings had
to keep flying and manuevering around obsticals. Meca (in warrior mode of
course) could just stand up and blast the Tie fighters as they came by.
Just my opinion...
R.C.
Scott D. Craig
>In article <3lheor$8...@pangea.ohionet.org>,
>Christopher A. Lisy <cl...@sol.ashland.edu> wrote:
>>
>>: >> Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
>>: >> technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
>>
>>My own personal thoughts here, but it has always seemed to me that
>>Robotech is a bit more advanced than Star Wars. I don't recall anything
>I don't think so...
>WE have turbine-powered jets. THEY have antigravity, ion drives, and other
>stuff that we don't even know about.
>WE have a spacefold system that vanished the first time it was ued. THEY
>have hyperdrive, and can put it on even the smallest starfighter.
>WE have slugthrowing weapons on most of our mecha. THEY have energy weapons
>that make slugthrowers totally obsolete.
WHAT are you talking about?? The only Robotech slugthrowers I
can think of are the GU-11 gun pod and the anti-personnell
machinegun on the Excaliber and Gladiator. Are you trying to
say that the P-Beams on the Excaliber are slug-throwers, or the
dual barrelled high powered anti-aircraft laser arms on the
Defender are slug-throwers? Or the VT's head lasers?
Or the ultra powerful anti-warship guns on the Mac II (you
know, the ones that do 2400 MD?) are OBSOLETE????
And you SURELY couldn't be saying that the missiles are
obsolete, when they are the most damaging thing in Robotech...
remember in the grand battle, when the SDF-1 rammed through
Dolza's base? It was inside the main engine room and fired off
literally thousands of missiles from the Spartans, Excalibers,
and Gladiators. Don't forget the first Daedalus maneouver -
there were around 10 Excalibers and 2 Mac IIs.... and they
destroyed a landing ship!
>WE have ONE android--Janice Em. THEY have thousands or millions of them.
So? The have no mecha - we have billions of them.
>>in the SW universe that can transform from a plane to a giant robot, with
>>an interface with the pilots brain. OOOOOOOOOOHHHH, could you imagine a
>>Jedi Knight in any of the Robotech mecha? Could you imagine the sort of
>>things they could be doing? COOL!
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but Robotech doesn't have any mecha that
>interface with the pilot's brain either, unless you count the Bioroids from
>Southern Cross. See my responses elsewhere within this thread on that
>subject.
>--
Peter Walker
: Perhaps Macross has made some sort of a scientific attempt at
: explaining how the mecha works - Robotech has not. Personally, I tend to
: think that anyone who argues against something such as mental control, or
: a substance such as protoculture, while doing so from a source which
: includes 60-foot humanoids and spacefolding, is just ASKING for trouble.
Well, the show *itself* is the strongest argument against mental control
of mecha. It comes as a total surprise to the Southern Cross that the
Bioroids use direct mental control. The Southern Cross' answer to
this advanced technology? The pupil pistol.
: But nothing at all in McKinney's books has contradicted anything in
: the TV Robotech, or even in the sourcebooks.
Two examples that contradict this claim:
1) See above. The show explicitly states that Earth, by the time of
the Southern Cross episodes, has no mental control of mecha.
2) McKinney completely ignores the fact that Carpenter's aide's comments
about their ship ("Outsiders") requires that it, by that episode, had
been in service for approximately 15 years. This puts the construction
of the vessel *well* before the departure of the SDF-3 - not during
the occupation of Tirol.
I got those two without breaking a sweat. Want more?
A possible third: everyone seems to think Miriya killed Roy. I can only
assume this legend grew out of the novels. It is not true. Miriya
was already engaged with Max at the time. Roy was hit by some random
flunkey.
: I know, I am a student of
: them in the extreme.
I suggest you do more research. The McKinney novels are repleat with
contradictions to the TV series.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter W. Walker II p...@spacsun.rice.edu
Rice University (713) HEY-0ME1
Physicist, historian, writer, collector, philosopher, and looney for hire
(not necessarily in that order)
Co-author of ROBOTECH: OBJECTIVE REFLEX POINT and author of ROBOTECH: THE
HUNTED.
Robotech_Master
>
>>In article <muffy.7...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>,
>>John Hogg <mu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Or do other standard and predictible evasive maneuvers. Veritechs have proto-
>>>culture. This gives them the ability to bond with their pilots and react
>>>nearly as fast as thought. A veritech pilot doesn't think about moving the
>>>stick right in the cockpit, he thinks of moving right and does so nearly
>>>instantaneously.
>
>>I'm afraid not. That whole "mental symbiosis" thing is a crock, foisted
>>upon Robotech fans by James Luceno (1/2 of Jack McKinney) in his attempt to
>>turn Robotech into some kind of half-baked copy of the Dune saga. I'm
>>sorry, but there is no evidence for mental control of Valkyries, and a good
>>deal of evidence against it. For example, the same Valkyries do the exact
>>same maneuvers with the exact same proficiency in the original Macross TV
>>show, and they had no "protoculture" (as a power source, anyway) OR mental
>>control in that. (And as a further proof that they had no mental control
>>there, it was later DEVELOPED in Macross Plus.)
>
>>Valkyries/Veritechs have no mental control. They have an "automatic control
>>system" that essentially automates the robot's motion. And protoculture is
>>not the mystic force of the universe that it's made out to be in McKinney's
>>books.
>>Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
>>CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
>>ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
>> EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/
>
>
>1) We're discussing ROBOTECH (not Macross) Vs Star Wars, right?
And what would Robotech be without Macross?
>2) Robotech and Macross are 2 different plots, right?
But they use the exact same footage.
>3) Therefore, while veritechs are identical in appearance to Valkyries, because
> a plot difference exists Veritechs CAN work different than Valkyries
Not if it uses the same footage.
In Macross, Valkyries use a nuclear reactor system. In Robotech, their
design is apparently very similar--Roy tells Rick that Veritechs work on a
reaction system. Only in this case, it just happens to be a protoculture
reactor.
If you look at the Macross segment of Robotech and say, "Gee, they must have
mental control provided by protoculture!" then you have to look at Macross,
which uses the exact same footage, and say, "Gee, they must have mental
control provided by a nuclear reactor!" It just doesn't follow.
The tech levels are the same. The mecha are almost the same. They behave
the same. What evidence can you find, IN THE SHOW, that Veritechs have
"mental symbiosis" and Valks don't?
Just off the top of my head I can find two points that show that NO Robotech
mecha has any kind of mental control system.
1) Numerous times Rick or someone else is shown piloting a Veritech without
his helmet on.
2) When the scientists examining the captured Bioroid in Southern Cross
observed its mental control systems, their surprise and astonishment quite
clearly indicates that they've never seen anything like direct mental
interfacing with mecha before. Including their own.
There are other points as well, but I don't want to have to remember them
right now.
>4) wasn't protoculture the whole reason the Zentraedi came after the SDF-1
> in the Robotech (not Macross) series? Therefore, how can protoculture be
> something not cannon, as it's a HUGE plot device in Robotech?
Protoculture is simply a clean-burning, high-energy organic power-source
with some usefulness in genetic engineering/cloning. Everyone was after
this for his own reason--the Zentraedi because the Masters sent them, the
Masters because their own supplies were almost exhausted (and, having built
their civilization around Protoculture, they couldn't very well allow it to
collapse, now could they...?), and the Invid because it was made from the
plant they lived in symbiosis with (which provided THEM with power and
genetic engineering capabilities before the Masters had even heard of it)
and, since their planet had since been razed by the Masters, it was the only
remaining source of life for their race.
I'm just sick and tired of people getting confused by McKinney into thinking
of protoculture as some sort of mystic force that permeates the universe and
acts as some sort of divine incarnation of cosmic karma. If you'd just pay
a bit more attention to the show(s) you would realize that it's not. 90% of
that metaphysical junk came from Invid Invasion (Mospeada) anyway, and if
you ascribe that correctly (to magic/psychic powers possessed by the Invid
Regis) rather than to protoculture, that explains everything.
B Masc
SDF-X and Robotechnology why? Well with the goodguy / badguy rule aside (good
guys win, bad guys lose, want to win? be a good guy) The SW universe would
lose simply because they are the more realistic of the two technologies. If
there is a technology that can allow 50ft tall mecha walk/run around like
humans, tumble roll around on the floor (Max vs. Miriya battle) and TRANSFORM
into a fighter with manuevering capabilities that rival those of dedicated
fighters (x-wings, TIE's) and then STILL build them robust enough to crash
into a modern building construct and have just a few scratches to it's paint
as damage (using NO shields for protection as an X-wing would need to
survive) -I want to be on their team! The SDF-X fleet (1,2,3,...) has their
destabilizer technology (which affects ALL shields by causing energy fields
(remember all force fields are energy fields) to lose cohesion and become
unstable -probably the way an ion storm affects even the mighty Enterprise D's
vaunted shield technology), they could perform a full ship daedalus manuever
(protected by their full barrier system) and destroy the Death Star ala Dolza
style. They could also manuever into position (the Death Star I doubt would be
able to bring their main gun to bear on the SDF X if the SDF even tried any
kind of evasive maneuvers -the SDF X being smaller and much more maneuverable
than a small moon) And perform Gloval's emergency/suicidal space fold and yes
take a huge chunk of the Death/Deadstar with them. Robotech has less of a
foothold on reality (I am a fan nonetheless of both universes) and thus would
emerge the victor. 50 foot mecha running around with enough manueverability to
get into a fistfight with a 50 foot zentraedi? Come on, there's no doubt who
would win this 'skirmish'. Though I like the post about Darth using the force
to control Gloval and crew ;)
B Masc
ma...@masc.ni.net
B Masc
The only logical conclusion is that Gloval
>and
>>crew could not possibly lose.
>>See?
>Um, is being rammed into little tiny pieces by Khyron's kamikaze cruiser
>(end of american Macross series) called winning? Sure the REF survived,
>but...
>
>Ciao, Eug
>
Well, letsee Khyron Dead, Azonia dead. REF survived, lived on, had many
offspring. Khyron? dead. Azonia? dead. Khyron Jr? never happened. It's close
but I'd have to say, the REF won.
It was a good point though, but in these universe crossovers we don't take
current time lines into consideration (umm gee, my memory is real bad but I
think that maybe, perhaps the deathstar and the second deathstar have been
destroyed in the Star Wars movies/universe right? maybe? Uh Oh forgot to put a
*Spoiler* warning before mentioning that.)
B Masc
trung p nguyen
On 31 Mar 1995 na...@stsci.edu wrote:
> In article <ccoxen.69...@julian.uwo.ca>, cco...@julian.uwo.ca (Shawn Southern) writes:
>
> > btw. The TIE's in TIE Fighter appear to have shields.
>
> How so? I thought they specifically had no shields.
I think he meant that the TIE Advanced, TIE Defender, and (maybe) TIE
Interceptor have shields. TIE Fighters do not have any shields.
David Filip
On 29 Mar 1995, Andrew King wrote:
> In <3l9vrq$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu
> (Robotech_Master) writes:
> this ought to start a good one :>
>
> Lets see the Death Star "Fold" out of the way of the main gun.
> If memory serves me the SDF-1 's main gun had something like a 2000000
> mile range. Im afraid Vader and Ole Palpy would be sitting ducks.
In order to destroy a planet the DS had to have a much larger
range for the super turbolaser gun, especially if they wanted to stay out
of the way of giant flying planet chunks! This won't help the the DS if
the SDF1 gets the first shot off, if you will look back at Star Wars.
Once the DS hyperspaced to Yavin it took about 30 minutes at sublight
speeds to get around to aim the gun at the rebel's moon.
But there is no guarantee that anything short of the SDF's full
barrier explosion would be able to blow up the DS, especially if the
SDF's crew didn't know where the DS's exhaust port/generator was placed; the
main gun has a chance only if aimed properly.
I should aslo mention (from my video game knowledge) that TIE
fighters have a standard speed of 100 MGLT (can someone tell me what the
acronym means?) and the proton torpedoes are ballistic nuclear warheads
that probably could smash a Veritech in one shot...but getting close
enough to fire a missile that tracks as poorly as the proton torpedoes do
(other warheads can track a little better) is a suicide mission against a
mobile vehicle like a VT.
A while ago someone said that people would just look for the
evidence to support their favorite side, and that this debate would go
nowhere. I have to disagree, even though I like both. If SW people
demonstrate the evidence that says SW would win, the evidence is not
invalidated by the RT fans. Everyone will look for the "real" evidence
so we will see the best from each side and be free to compare them. If
we choose to use reason at that time, then we will be able to take the
debate somewhere.
DF
John Hogg
> Unfortunetly you have not gotten the HTTE Sourcebook, TIE Interceptors
>were fitted with shields, along with Scimitar Assault bombers, make that
>the DFR Sourcebook..
>--
> -=Mark=- "The regional governers now have direct control over
>territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this
>battle station." -Tarkin, ANH
irrleveant, DFR or Dark Force Rising, a Timothy Zahn book, happens 5 years
after the destruction of the second star destroyer. Between A New Hope and
Return of the Jedi, the time when the Death Stars existed, Tie Interceptors
did not have shields.
S.G. Hagen
David Filip <grim...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> A while ago someone said that people would just look for the
>evidence to support their favorite side, and that this debate would go
>nowhere. I have to disagree, even though I like both. If SW people
>demonstrate the evidence that says SW would win, the evidence is not
>invalidated by the RT fans. Everyone will look for the "real" evidence
>so we will see the best from each side and be free to compare them. If
>we choose to use reason at that time, then we will be able to take the
>debate somewhere.
THe funny thing about evidence is that two sides can use the exact
same evidence, interpretted slightly differently, as proof for
diametrically opposed arguments. THere are some extremely interesting
psychological experiments that had two groups, one for capital
punishment, and one against find evidence to support their stand. Both
sides used the same evidence, interpretted in different ways, to conclude
they were right.
Admitedly, it is possible for someone who has no side on this to
examine each sides evidence and come to an informed conclusion. Making
someone whose favourite is Star Wars (or Robotech) believe that there
side will loose is a lot harder, if not impossible.
Since both sides will not shift their initial stand, and there is no
better way to entrench someone in their beliefs than by making an attack
on them, the debate goes no where, stalemate. It should be a lot of fun
in the mean time though :)
S.G. Hagen
Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
>I don't think so...
>WE have turbine-powered jets. THEY have antigravity, ion drives, and other
>stuff that we don't even know about.
Turbine powered jets that are faster than even TIE interceptors and
A-Wings in atmosphere and space. Keep the ion drives, they're slow. The
SDF-1 did have anti-grav, didn't work so hot at first but it was antigrav.
>
>WE have a spacefold system that vanished the first time it was ued. THEY
>have hyperdrive, and can put it on even the smallest starfighter.
That the SDF-1's spacefold system was a bit shoddy means nothing
really. THe Zentradi's sapce fold worked perfectly. I'm not sure but it
seems that folding space for instantaneous travel from point A to B is a
lot better than mucking about in hyperspace.
>
>WE have slugthrowing weapons on most of our mecha. THEY have energy weapons
>that make slugthrowers totally obsolete.
A Valkyrie crashed, ripped through several buildings, and emerged
little the worse for ware. Do that with an X-Wing and see waht sort of
shape it is in. THe weapons they used could damage fighter craft that
could take that sort of punishment. Which weapons are likely the more
powerful? Just because it isn't all flash does not mean its bad. Kinetic
energy is a form of energy.
Slug throwers on the scale of the ones used on the mecha are not
obsolete. Their biggest problem is limited ammunition.
>
>WE have ONE android--Janice Em. THEY have thousands or millions of them.
Ehh, let's ignore that one, Macross, or Robotech, had no androids so
let's forget about them.
Of course in the realms of gientic engineering... Let them keep their
droids, the Earthers are bringing full side Zentradi.
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but Robotech doesn't have any mecha that
>interface with the pilot's brain either,
But the mecha, especially the Valkyries were incredibly maneuverable.
I wonder if an X-Wing could go into a dive, match falling velocities with
a person, the pilot pop the canopy, go out, retireve the person, get them
both back in, ignoring that the X-Wing is a single seater, and pull out
before a rather unpleasent and sudden stop?
Daniel Oberes
>
>
> The only logical conclusion is that Gloval
>>and
>>>crew could not possibly lose.
>>>See?
>
>>Um, is being rammed into little tiny pieces by Khyron's kamikaze
cruiser
>>(end of american Macross series) called winning? Sure the REF
survived,
>>but...
>>
>>Ciao, Eug
Well I got some ideas about fights that I think would be cool. I am not
knowlegdeable enough to decide for myself.
What if a Jedi Master fought the Kwisatz Haderach (Dune)?
Or Storm Troopers against a bunch of Sardaukar (again Dune)?
You guys covered most of the other Sci fi stuff so please reply...
Daniel Oberes
Sorry about that last posting but I have a question, Do you think a
light Saber could block a ST hand phaser?
ARTHUR REAM
: Flame me for it but what the hell :)
: does anyone care to risk a lighting bolt on this one????
: who else
The Emporer couldn't touch Satan, let alone God. Palpadine might last
a few rounds with a minor angel or demon, but the supreme being?
Andrew King
:)
CHRISTOPHER M. RIPP
> God in round one! Not that I'm overly religous or anything, but
> in art class I once saw this painting of God hanging over a city,
> and it looked to me like he was giving it the Hogan Leg Drop!
> That endeared the dude to me forever, so I'd say God gives the
> Emperor a Sodem and Gemorra (sp) Hogan Leg Drop and toasts the
> Emperor! (oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that I equated the city
> in the painting made me think of those two cities God toasted
> in the Old Testiment)
This argument is irrelevant, because everyone knows that God is dead.
He died in 33 AD, with a bunch of other con-artists and criminals. Or maybe
that was Brian. I can't remember.
--
=== Christopher M. Ripp ===== THX-...@utulsa.edu ===== University of Tulsa ===
== My opinions are my own, probably not TU's...and you'll probably hate 'em ===
Timothy Jones
On 29 Mar 1995, Robin Lim wrote:
I was all set to just read this and not say anything until you
just *had* to go and slight ST tech in here too! What--you thought
you could get away with it? Fool.
> [snip]
> >One advantage on the Robotech side in this respect would seem to be that
> >Star Wars missiles seem to have rather primitive guidance systems, if any at
> >all, while Robotech missiles can lock in on their targets. But Star Wars
> >missiles seem to be a great deal more powerful, as do their blaster weapons.
>
> Definitely, if the computer games are any judge, your proton torpedos
> have difficulty hitting the side of a small moon. Due to their
> similarity in name to a weapon from a certain OTHER sci-fi TV show, I
Oh and would those happen to be the photon torps of the Feds?
'Cause if *that's* what you're insinuating, you've one hell of a
shocker comin' to you! They're called *pHoton* torpedos, not
pRoton torps, and the former is vastly superior to the latter.
If you disagree, it only shows you don't watch things very closly.
SW torps do fission damage, based on solid matter interactions:
protons against target. ST torps, OTOH, are more efficient *and*
destructive, as well as being more versitle. How do I know this?
Easy. It's the nature o' the beast...so to speak. No matter to
energy conversion is going to be very efficient that works by
fission; that E=mc^2 formula looks nice on paper, but what most
people don't know is that you can't plug more than about 1% of the
actual matter in the warhead into that equation. ST torps, however,
are based on photon emmissions, as the name suggests. But not just
light -- but energy. They use partitions to control the rate of
anhilation of the matter and antimatter in the warhead -- that's
where the variable yield setting comes from. At max yield, they
are far more pernicious than anything in the SW universe. On any
setting, the efficency level of the matter to energy conversion
process will be 100%, so even on a pound-for-pound comparasin,
ST torps far outclass their SW counterparts. So then, we can
just get *that* myth out of the way, shall we.
> >
> >Another question to consider is on what principles Star Wars sensor systems
> >work, and whether they could defeat the cloaking on the Shadow Fighters...
>
> Hrm, I suspect Star Wars sensors work in the same way as Star Trek
> sensors :)
This is the sort of foolish remark that will perpetuate
these debates if your not carefull, lad. I'll have you
know that ST sensors are centuries ahead of those in SW.
How can you possibly think to compare a tech that can't
spot ships in hyperspace, can't lock on to targets
(which is why guns are fired by gunners in turrets, and
not via computer control), and can't even do lifescans
*or* tac scans which Fed ships do all the time. Answer:
There *is* no comparasin...don't doubt it for a second.
Timothy..."When the weather starts to burn...then you'll know
that you're in trouble."...Jones
Frank Dutkiewicz
hell of a lot faster and more manuerverable than TIEs. Also, TIEs guns are
>This is kind of odd...I seem to recall from the SW sourcebooks that TIEs are
ultramaneuverable because of their ability to vector thrust (from their Twin
Ion Engines) in any direction. How would a standard fighter jet compare to
that?
A VT. is nowhere close to a standard jet fighter. (except in appearance)
B Masc
>A possible third: everyone seems to think Miriya killed Roy. I can only
>assume this legend grew out of the novels. It is not true. Miriya
>was already engaged with Max at the time. Roy was hit by some random
>flunkey.
Hmm, if I remember correctly wasn't it Miriya's attack on the SDF-1 (to find
the 'one on board the SDF-1 whom she could not best' -Khyron's words) that
resulted in Roy's death? And wasn't it the same battle where Miriya first
meets Max? You know the battle where she uses the famous line "You wish to do
battle? You impudent fool!" -If so they couldn't have been engaged already.
_But_ then again I'm recollecting this from the first Southern Cross episode
where Dana tells Bowie how her parents met, soooo the episodes they used to
piece together her story could have been mixed up to erroneously reflect this
(If so this would explain why so many people, including myself believed Miriya
killed Roy). I don't have the episodes on tape anymore so I don't know for
sure. Anyone have a copy that they can look up and check on this?
B Masc-
ma...@masc.ni.net
Andrew King
Culpepper) writes:
How about this.......SDF-1 rams deathstar and the Mecha just ramble
about inside the Death star destroying everything inside till its not
operational. a 50 foot peice of Mecha steps on Vader and then they have
vader cakes for dinner at the party afterwards.
sailor
Max Schau
On 30 Mar 1995, Andrew King wrote:
> Flame me for it but what the hell :)
>
> does anyone care to risk a lighting bolt on this one????
>
> who else
I'd have to say the Emperor wpuld win..
Sure god made everything (Well according to people who want answers to
questions that don't have them)
But what else has god done? NOTHING!!
He let's his curches burn down, and ggod people always seem to be the
ones dying!
Now the emperor he can shoot lightning and kill people just by looking at
them! Now that's power!
Matthias Rauhut
Would you please check the FAQ before posting such useless nonsence here!
Such discussion was banned from rec.games.mecha long ago! And i don't feel
like we should change the rec.games.mecha-FAQ on that subject...
Matthias
--
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| Maintainer of > WWW: http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~mr2 /
| The > IRC: st-guru /
| Patches Scrolls > real life:huh? /
+-----------------------+------------------------------------------+
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`----------------------------------------------------------------'
na...@stsci.edu
> I don't agree with the "swarms of Tie-Fighters" attacking the REF. The
> Empire has always seemed timid in its use of air power on planets. Not
> one appeared on Hoth, even though the Rebels were using their snow
> speeders. The battle would have been over VERY, VERY quickly had the
[...]
> The Empire also didn't use any air support when the Rebels were attacking
> the shield generator on Endor (Surely there had to be at least a few
> Tie-Fighters somewhere on the planet or near orbit!!!).
Clearly, TIE fighters are not atmosphere-capable! Or if they are, they don't
stand up to much. Figger, those things don't have aerilons anywhere, how would
they manuever?
> I agree. The Veritech-type mecha would quickly get around the main
> blasters of the AT-AT (think about a VF-1S standing on the back of an
> AT-AT shooting everything it has into the top of its head!!!). Destroids
> wouldn't be a pushover either.
Heh heh... but of course, you're assuming that a Veritech's gun can
penetrate that kind of armor that Snowspeeder cannons, from the same 'universe'
could not.
--
_______ _______ ______ ______ Lord of the Flies
Christopher E. Ronnfeldt
-
->A possible third: everyone seems to think Miriya killed Roy. I can only
->assume this legend grew out of the novels. It is not true. Miriya
->was already engaged with Max at the time. Roy was hit by some random
->flunkey.
-
-Hmm, if I remember correctly wasn't it Miriya's attack on the SDF-1 (to find
-the 'one on board the SDF-1 whom she could not best' -Khyron's words) that
-resulted in Roy's death? And wasn't it the same battle where Miriya first
-meets Max? You know the battle where she uses the famous line "You wish to do
-battle? You impudent fool!" -If so they couldn't have been engaged already.
This is the battle in question. You seem to have misinterpreted the use of
the term 'engaged'. In the post you replyed to, it was used in a military
sense : engaged in battle (they were trying to blow each other out of the
sky when Jane Q. Flunkey got lucky and wasted Roy). You apparently read it
to mean that they were at this point planing to get married. Don't you just
love the potential ambiguity of the English Language.
Chris
--
Geek Code V2.1 : GCS/M d++(---) H s+: g+ !au a- w+ v+* C+++ US++ P+ L N+++ K++
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r-- n+++(----) y?
The BOB(tm)
-Kill The Bob(tm)
henry bramlet
: One of the first episodes of Macross: The SDF-1 tries to lift off using
: Anti-Grav units, but they rip out of the hull due to the massive weight of
: the SDF-1 (could it be they were not used previously on a world with
: gravity as strong as earth's?)
Yeah, but that is tech that the REF didn't understand, isn't it?
: I don't agree with the "swarms of Tie-Fighters" attacking the REF. The
: Empire has always seemed timid in its use of air power on planets. Not
: one appeared on Hoth, even though the Rebels were using their snow
: speeders. The battle would have been over VERY, VERY quickly had the
: Empire followed the destruction of the Rebel's shield generator with a
: barage of Tie-Fighter squadrons. Not one Rebel ship would have been able
: to flee.
In this case, I chalked it up that the TIEs would have had the same
prob as the Snow Speeders for the rebels. That being that they weren't
aclimated to Hoth's cold weather...however, they are pretty good in the
cold of space...so...I dunno...Wind sheer?
8)
: The Empire also didn't use any air support when the Rebels were attacking
: the shield generator on Endor (Surely there had to be at least a few
: Tie-Fighters somewhere on the planet or near orbit!!!).
Um...There is a PRETTY good reason for this. What are the TIEs gonna do?
they can't see through the canopies of giant redwoods! Or perhaps they
should go weaving in and out of the trees? I don't think so...
: I agree. The Veritech-type mecha would quickly get around the main
: blasters of the AT-AT (think about a VF-1S standing on the back of an
: AT-AT shooting everything it has into the top of its head!!!). Destroids
: wouldn't be a pushover either.
I think you are right here...Though I think the Empire's resources
alone would be able to eventually overtake Hoth. I mean, come on. They
have SUCH a huge fleet, eventually the AT-ATs would get through, and thats
assuming the AT-ATs' armor could be penetrated (Which I think is a good
chance) Still, eventually, the empire would start sending down ships and
perhaps AT-ATs eqiupped with deflectors. But again, who knows?
henry bramlet
: would win this 'skirmish'. Though I like the post about Darth using the force
Teee heee....Thanks. ;)
But I can't accept the REF winning. Why? All the Empire needs is
some heavey duty-industrial strength paint thinner/stripper, and they'll
send those animated cells running into lil' pools.
Hunter: Haha! Eat lead, Empire!
Darth:You will not defeat the Empire. <Squirt>
Hunter: <Hisssss> I'm MEeeeeeLLTING Meeelting...What a world....
henry bramlet
: But the mecha, especially the Valkyries were incredibly maneuverable.
: a person, the pilot pop the canopy, go out, retireve the person, get them
: both back in, ignoring that the X-Wing is a single seater, and pull out
**************HALT! STOP! HANG ON!******************
Now just a moment. If yer gonna play against Non-Animated
people like the Empire, you have to play by Non-Animated rules! I
could let the building crashes slide, and the pretty little pirouettes
around zentradi in space go by, But HELL! You gotta make this fight
SOMEWHAT fair! Sheeeeeesh! If we are gonna follow Anime Physics, then
we might as well throw in everything else, such as the heroes not being
effected by the Vacuum of space while outside their EVA suits.
But, I'll see your Pseudo-Physics for the REF, and RAISE you with
TRUE physics for the Empire ;)! Let's take the Turbo Lasers and the lasers
caried by the AT-STs and the other machines in the Movies. They all had
the recoils one would associate with a slug/shell thrower of the same
size. Well...hmm...If anyone here on games.mecha has been watching the
Gauss cannon De-Munchkinizer debate, they have seen the almost constant
arguement that for each and every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction (Where it come from is beyond me 8)...). So let's take that
a little further. These lasers/blasters would have a recoil, except it
is very minimal because of the very very very very low mass of the beam
we are firing. So, if these huge turbo-blasters are having recoil, they
must be putting up a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE amount of energy/particles into
the beam being fired, don't you think? Go try and figure out where
they get that energy from if you want to...but of course we aren't trying
to figure out a battle-ship made on earth can be rammed through high tech,
space age flying, fleet pulverizing, SDF-spanking Zentradi ship hull, are
we?
So maybe the theory is not truely PHYSICS in its purist form, but
the point is, if you get to use Cartoon Physics, then the Empire gets to
use Hollywood physics. So THERE!!!! ;)
Henry Bramlet
Always happy to throw confusion upon pointless debates.....
Marco van Loon
> In article <3l9vrq$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,
> Robotech_Master <robo...@eyrie.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >Overall technology base: Star Wars seems to have a higher general level of
> >technology than Robotech. Thus, better systems can be fitted to smaller
> >fighters. (ie, snubfighters such as X-wings have hyperdrive systems built
> >in, making for much more easy deployment) Also, metal alloys would be
> >stronger, less receptive to damage, etc.
Since the subject line also mentions Macross, let's throw in the YF19 and YF21
from Macross+ :equipped with fold boosters good for about 20 light years.
(How far can an X-wing travel using hyperdrive anyway?)
> True, however, in general, things LOOK clunkier, so, IMHO, it would be
> very difficult to find someone with the capability to build transforming
> mecha. Designs also tend to emphasize functionality over form, unlike
> your very stylish anime mecha. Power sources in Star Wars are most
> likely very advanced, since I've never figured out what things are
> powered by. The other thing that Robotech (allegedly) doesn't have is
> anti-grav, but I could be wrong.
>
The SDF-1 has anti-grav:
episode 2: the first launch fails because the anti-grav pods are breaking away from
the ship.
episode 7 (bye bye Mars): they can't take off because gravity mines cancel
out the anti-grav system (and they can't use normal engines because those
were damaged)
[munch]
> Oh yes.. I forget, anime missiles also tend to have VERY poor guidance
> systems. Missiles tend to be small, and they also tend to be released in
> huge clouds which spiral towards the enemy.
>
I have to disagree about the poor guidance: in the episode where Lisa goes
to earth in a shuttle, the shuttle is attacked and the escort fights back.
Rick comes to the rescue and fires a lot of the missiles of his super veritech
from quite a long range at the battle pods (who are still fighting the escort).
Would he have done this if there was ANY chance of him blowing away the
escort??? I don't think so, so the missiles must have some very GOOD
guidance system: 'image recognition', 'friend or foe'
(sorry for the Wingcommander terms) or something like that.
Marco van Loon
For pc-utils, qtflat, animeDOOM, JIS utils,
s38...@stud.tue.nl the anime pocket guide and
valk...@charm.il.ft.hse.nl anime fanzines on internet:
veri...@stack.urc.tue.nl http://www.stack.urc.tue.nl/~veritech
S.G. Hagen
henry bramlet <bramlet@beethoven> wrote:
> So maybe the theory is not truely PHYSICS in its purist form, but
>the point is, if you get to use Cartoon Physics, then the Empire gets to
>use Hollywood physics. So THERE!!!! ;)
Anime pyhsics, not cartoon physics. Few anime charaters survive
having anvils dropped on them. Of course hyperpace hammers are a differnt
matter entirely.
And are we talking the same Hollywood physics like the fact you can
hear space fighters go by in space non the less? I guess SW space is not
quite the vacumn ours is :)
B Masc
>-Hmm, if I remember correctly wasn't it Miriya's attack on the SDF-1 (to find
>-the 'one on board the SDF-1 whom she could not best' -Khyron's words) that
>-resulted in Roy's death? And wasn't it the same battle where Miriya first
>-meets Max? You know the battle where she uses the famous line "You wish to
do
>-battle? You impudent fool!" -If so they couldn't have been engaged already.
>
>This is the battle in question. You seem to have misinterpreted the use of
>the term 'engaged'. In the post you replyed to, it was used in a military
>sense : engaged in battle (they were trying to blow each other out of the
>sky when Jane Q. Flunkey got lucky and wasted Roy). You apparently read it
>to mean that they were at this point planing to get married. Don't you just
>love the potential ambiguity of the English Language.
Ahhh, now I understand why Picard always says "engage" and yet is still
without a wife! ;)
It's funny when I posted that one about Max and Miriya not possibly being
engaged I was going to add "well unless they were 'engaged' in battle of
course!" I had no idea that you meant the same thing! Ah yes the english
language is a thing of beauty to be sure.
Hmmm, now I wonder when Picard says "make it sew" whether he's talking about a
sewing machine or not. hmmm...I was so sure before, now I just don't know ;)
B Masc-
B Masc
Well the flying saucer from LOST IN SPACE (commanded by Will Robinson) would
have both the Death Star, the SDF 1 and all 5 Enterprises (6 including the 3
engined one from the finale)for lunch. I think you would have to agree with me
there! Just one look at that 'fortress' would send any fleet who would dare
oppose it scurrying away like so many mindless rats. Face it, if that Robinson
family and their robot ever realized they were in possession of the most power
full "war ship/instrument of mass destruction" in the omniverse, we'd all be
doomed.
B Masc
Michael Powers
>What about the ramming attack the SDF-1 used to get inside Dolza's
>fortress? :-)
>
I think that the SDF-1 was bigger than the Death Star's reactor chamber...
Plus which if destroying the reactor could blow up something the size of
a small moon, don't you think that would be rather fatal for whatever
happened to be nearby at the time?
Mike Powers
P.S. And just HOW big is the Death Star? According to the RPG, the
main super huge motherfucker gun that the SDF-1 and most Zentradei ships
(like they ever used it) had, when fired at a planet, would "only" produce
a crater 2d4 miles around and 1d4 miles deep. And the gun could only fire
every ten minutes or so. I'd think that the amount of capital warships
that the Death Star could launch in ten minutes would be rather annoying
to our heroes...
Mike Powers
Knight of the Black Rose
>> Third, even further off the subject, the Dark Trooper from Lucasart's
>> DARK FORCES could spank those little old Cyclone bike/armor.
>> my $.2.
>> Allen
>> ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu
>>
Doubtful, especially if the character you play in the game can take them out.
Anyone make up th3eir stats for the star wars RPG?
--
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