Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Vader?
Cecil Leung
Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly appeared
so didn't it? I mean Tarkin ordered Vader to release the general from the
choking, and he also said to Vader that his plan to follow the Falcon "had
better work." Nobody except the Emperor would ever speak to Vader like
that!!!
Keith Rose
Leung) wrote:
> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader?
In a word, yes. At the time of ANH, Vader was still an up-and-comer. You'll
notice he doesn't even sit down at the staff meeting on the Death Star. He
stands behind Tarkin. It would appear that Vader is a hatchet man for
Tarkin, who as a territorial governor has about as much power as anybody in
the Empire (except Palpatine himself) can have.
There definitely seems to be a change in the power structure in the Empire
after ANH. It would seem that the incredible failure of the old guard to
put down the rebellion gave the Emperor the excuse he needed to clean house
and raise the status of his pupil. In TESB Vader obviously has the rank of
at least Admiral, since he is in command of a fleet.
The attitude of the rest of the military toward him changes significantly.
as well. In ANH even the grunts, while they obey his orders, don't seem to
fear Vader. In TESB, everybody seems terrified of him. Perhaps Vader's rise
to power was a bit messy? In ROTJ things seem to have calmed down a bit.
I guess the sting of executions has ended, or at least slowed down. Jerjerrod
barely even quakes until Vader tells him that Palpatine himself is coming
to oversee the final construction.
KR
--
Keith Rose You can waste time with your friends
kr...@mips2.phy.queensu.ca when your chores are done.
Dept. of Physics Now come on, get to it!
Queen's University - Owen Lars
JackCamden
construction as the Emperor's representative, and thus was nominally under
Tarkin's command, though also told by the Emperor to keep an eye on the
ambitious Grand Moff. (The radio drama bears this out).
I've always preferred to think of the Emperor as increasingly isolated and
crazed (alluded to in the SW novel prologue, which is admittedly a rather
suspect source) after the fall of the Old Republic, resulting in a
dissatisfied Vader hitching his star to the ambitious Tarkin and his quest
to become Emperor (again, SW novel source, and again that has to be taken
with a grain of salt).
Then ANH becomes much more of an intrigue: the meeting on the DS is
revealed as a coup plot, with the DS architects trying to persuade the
reluctant Tagge to throw the starfleet behind Tarkin. (In this case, the
DS's most logical target, ultimately, is Coruscant). Tarkin intends to
destroy the Alliance and then ride to the throne on the acclaim of the
military (and the planet-destroying laser helps, of course).
The Emperor uncovers the plot and brings the plotters out into the open by
disbanding the Senate (greatly increasing Tarkin's power...and greed). He
then leaks the DS plans to the Alliance (just as he does in ROTJ), hoping
the DS and the Alliance starfleet will cripple each other (he doesn't
anticipate an attack with snub fighters) and leave him able to eliminate
the plotters and the rebels all at once.
Sometime after ANH, he breaks Vader's will and trusts him again, which
proves a poor idea in TESB and ROTJ.
It's not the Lucasfilm official theory, but it explains a lot.
Jack
Gregory Gene Coleman
I always got the impression that Vader wasn't the Emporer's second in
military or even governmental functions until after ANH. He was the
Emporer's student, perhaps one of many..., but not in the military. He
had his personal squad in ANH and then his own Star Destoyer fleet, but I
don't really see him as the political, ruler type. all of this is, of
course IMO.
Jussi Hannula
> I have been thinking about Vader's status recently. In ANH I think Vader
> is much less villinous then in ESB and ROTJ. Tarkin makes several
> commands to Vader: "Relese him!" and "You had better be right>" Almost
> threatnening sometimes. And when Leia is brought to Tarkin to reveal the
> location of the rebel base, she comments how she "should have known he
> was holding Vader's leash..." I think Vader is subordinate to
> Tarkin....in ANh he was a lot like a vile henchman while Tarkin actually
> was in control. Look back at some of the threads about talking back to
> vader for some good discussion on this subject.
Perhaps so, technically at least. However, I still have no doubt in my
mind about what would have happened had Tarkin actually tried to pull
rank on Vader and enforce his superiority... And there would have been
no one to tell Vader to "Release him!" Maybe the Emperor would have got
a little mad, but I don't think he would have got Vader executed or
otherwise punished -- he was too valuable for him and it would have been
a risky attempt anyway, even for the Emperor.
| _ | \_____/ oo__ _ _ __oo / _ \
|=(_)=| __ | __ """--,,,_(_)_--_(_)_,,,--""" / _ _ \ |-=(_)=-|
| | \-(_)-/ _>_[____]_<_ |=(_)(_)=| \ /
\ / ___--""" (_)\__/(_) """--___ \ " /
/ \ oo"" ""oo -SpAce-
Never tell me the odds!!!
Alice Hadden
Jeez, I wish there was more information on that guy. I would have to guess
yes, since Vader's behavior was beyond respect and bordering on
submission. Leia's observation of Tarkin holding Vader's leash points
that out pretty well. Theory: Perhaps the Emperor did not quite trust
Vader enough to give him full command of the Death Star, and required
Tarkin to not only run the battle station but keep an eye on the Sith Lord
to make sure he didn't stragulate too many officers (ESB--what happens
when Vader has no leash). Just when the Emperor is about to give Vader
his complete trust (and perhaps a shot as his heir?), Vader blows it by
becoming obsessed with his son.
Question: What were the names of the two officers bickering at the
Imperial meeting in ANH? One argued that they must not underestimate the
Rebel Alliance, the other argued that the Death Star was impenetrable, and
the most powerful force in the galaxy. He ended up nearly strangled by
Vader for his disturbing "lack of faith".
Feel free to email your reply.
ali
*********************************************************
had...@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu
* * *
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
*********************************************************
Wade Harshman
> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly appeared
> so didn't it? I mean Tarkin ordered Vader to release the general from the
> choking, and he also said to Vader that his plan to follow the Falcon "had
> better work." Nobody except the Emperor would ever speak to Vader like
> that!!!
I've been trying to figure this one out for awhile. In fact, I posted on
this a few days ago, but no one responded. :(
I think Vader and Tarkin were on equal terms. Sure, Tarkin spoke to
Vader like that, but Vader wasn't always the most congenial person to
Tarkin, either.
I don't think Vader was military, per se. He gave orders, but the actual
planning was always up to the generals, much like a president giving his
army objectives to be met. And yet, he had his own TIE Fighter. I don't
know of too many presidents that have their own F-15. It's a wierd
relationship, one that I'm sure I don't fully understand, yet.
But I'm pretty convinced that Vader was more of an extension of the
Emperor. Even the SSD wasn't "Vader's ship", as it is so often called.
It was a command ship and a flag ship, that's why Vader was on it. The
ship itself belonged to Palpatine, if anyone, and it was Piett's ship if
we can give it to anybody (or maybe there was a no name captain on board).
But, alas, I'm just rambling. If I ever pull my thoughts together, I'll
try this again.
| | | |
| _ | / _ \ | _ |
|=-(_)=-| |=-(_)-=| |=-(_)-=|
| | \ Darth / | |
` ' Wader ` '
Regina Marie Lawrence
Wade Harshman <s102...@olivet.edu> wrote:
>
>> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly appeared
>> so didn't it? I mean Tarkin ordered Vader to release the general from the
>> choking, and he also said to Vader that his plan to follow the Falcon "had
>> better work." Nobody except the Emperor would ever speak to Vader like
>> that!!!
I have been thinking about Vader's status recently. In ANH I think Vader
is much less villinous then in ESB and ROTJ. Tarkin makes several
commands to Vader: "Relese him!" and "You had better be right>" Almost
threatnening sometimes. And when Leia is brought to Tarkin to reveal the
location of the rebel base, she comments how she "should have known he
was holding Vader's leash..." I think Vader is subordinate to
Tarkin....in ANh he was a lot like a vile henchman while Tarkin actually
was in control. Look back at some of the threads about talking back to
vader for some good discussion on this subject.
--
"The force is with you young Skywalker....but you are not a Jedi yet."
Regina Lawrence
reg...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
David Allen Sobelsohn
>
> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly appeared
> so didn't it? I mean Tarkin ordered Vader to release the general from the
> choking, and he also said to Vader that his plan to follow the Falcon "had
> better work." Nobody except the Emperor would ever speak to Vader like
> that!!!
>
Yes, he was the only one above vader besides the emperor.
Wade Harshman
To everyone who answered "yes":
Did you notice that Vader disobeyed a few of Tarkin's orders? I think he
let Tarkin run the show, but I don't think either one really "outranked"
the other in any clear cut sense.
ARTHUR REAM
When you post a theory, please state your reasons for it.
It was Tarkin who suggested the rule through fear of force and the
system of grand moffs. He was probably the FIRST Grand Moff, and
maybe the only one at the time, but I think, technically, all Grand
Moffs are of equal rank. No such thing as a grand Grand Moff. But
Tarkin would have been the Emperor's favorite, because of his good
ideas. He was also dangerous, cause he could easilly make a play
for power.
I've always assumed that Vader helped Palaptine eliminate the Jedi.
I'm not sure what he got in return. That's why I really don't see him
being completely subordinate to Tarkin. Vader is another dangerous
one who may want to make a bid for power.
Come to think of it, I doubt these would be the only individual that
the Emperor had his eye on.
David Miller
s102...@olivet.edu says...
>
>
>To everyone who answered "yes":
>
>Did you notice that Vader disobeyed a few of Tarkin's orders? I think
he
>let Tarkin run the show, but I don't think either one really "outranked"
>the other in any clear cut sense.
was assigned command of the DS, Vader deferred because he was on Tarkin's
turf. If Tarkin was on the Executer [I know, it wasn't built
yet.....just an example], then Tarkin would probably defer to Vader's
judgement. On the DS, though, Tarkin got the final call.
Make sense?
Dave....."You see, Lord Vader? She CAN be reasonable." -Tarkin, about
to be fooled.
Wade Harshman
> >Did you notice that Vader disobeyed a few of Tarkin's orders? I think he
> >let Tarkin run the show, but I don't think either one really "outranked"
> >the other in any clear cut sense.
> I agree. The two of them acted as equals. My guess is that since Tarkin
> was assigned command of the DS, Vader deferred because he was on Tarkin's
> turf. If Tarkin was on the Executer [I know, it wasn't built
> yet.....just an example], then Tarkin would probably defer to Vader's
> judgement. On the DS, though, Tarkin got the final call.
>
> Make sense?
Yep. One thing, though. Tarkin wasn't assigned to the DS, he built it.
He *was* governor of the outer rim territories, though.
David Skywalker Crowley
<s102...@olivet.edu> writes:
>
>
>To everyone who answered "yes":
>
>Did you notice that Vader disobeyed a few of Tarkin's orders? I think
he
>let Tarkin run the show, but I don't think either one really
"outranked"
>the other in any clear cut sense.
>
>
> | | | |
> | _ | / _ \ | _ |
> |=-(_)=-| |=-(_)-=| |=-(_)-=|
> | | \ Darth / | |
> ` ' Wader ` '
>
>
Vader had no rank. He was a Lord of the Sith. Pure nobility. Anyway, as
Anakin he was a General as was Obi-wan. But a General of the army
doesn't outrank or underrank an Admiral of the Navy. They are different
forces. They worked together.....
Skywalker Crowley
Jim Wolford
: In <Pine.SOL.3.91.950408181639.5387G-100000@tiger> Wade Harshman
: <s102...@olivet.edu> writes:
besides tarkin wasn't in the military, he was a govenor. In the chain of
command he would only answer to the Emperor.
Jim
Morpheus
>> I agree. The two of them acted as equals. My guess is that since Tarkin
>> was assigned command of the DS, Vader deferred because he was on Tarkin's
>> turf. If Tarkin was on the Executer [I know, it wasn't built
>> yet.....just an example], then Tarkin would probably defer to Vader's
>> judgement. On the DS, though, Tarkin got the final call.
>>
>> Make sense?
>Yep. One thing, though. Tarkin wasn't assigned to the DS, he built it.
>He *was* governor of the outer rim territories, though.
I think it was more than a matter of turf, though. I think Tarkin, more
than any other person at the time (including Vader!) was Palpatine's
favorite. Like you said, it was Tarkin's advice to Palpatine that got
the whole DS project started, and it was also Tarkin's advice that got
the rank of "Grand Moff" implemented. Palpatine like Tarkin so much, he
gave Tarkin not only the first Grand Moff title, but also command of the
Death Star. Vader, I believe, simply knew that Tarkin was more liked
by Palpatine.
I also agree with the thinking that Vader simply didn't have very much
power at this time. Remember, the rebellion was still very young, and it
wasn't until they actually blew-up the DS that the Emporer REALLY got...
annoyed. That's when he gave Vader a fleet with the command to search out
and destroy the rebellion. This is where Vader's power came from. The
Emporer wanted the rebellion destroyed at all costs, and put Vader in
charge of implementing that objective in ESB. That's when Vader has the
real power.
Morpheus
Douglas Harder
Subject: Re: Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Vader?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars
In article <3merl7$c...@ink.cc.pdx.edu> you wrote:
: besides tarkin wasn't in the military, he was a govenor. In the chain of
: command he would only answer to the Emperor.
Tarkin was a governer, but he was also a soldier. As far as i can tell,
there are two services: Army (usually wearing brown) and Navy (usually
wearing black -- what else is new?).
The Emporor
Army Navy
Grand Moff (Tarken) Grand Admiral (Thawn)
Moff (Jerjerod) Admiral (Piett)
General (Veers) Captain (Needa)
The rank structure does not appear to exactly parallel the typical
American rank structure:
Bill Clinton
Army Navy
General Admiral
Lt General Rear Admiral
Maj General ? Admiral (I forget)
Brigadier Gen ? Admiral (I forget, again)
Colonel Captain
If the Imperial Rank structure paralleled ours, then you would
have General Veers under the command of Admiral Piett -- I believe
that the AT-ATs and the legions of Imperial troops are
permanent fixtures on the SSD (according to other posts). It
would seem more likely (IMHO) that the command of the Imperial legions
on a SSD would be approximately equal in autority/responsibility as
the command of an ISD by a Captain of the Navy.
Since Vader was not planning a ground assult, it does not seem
all that likely that he would have brought General Veers out
specifically for that task.
I doubt that Lucas was concerned with rank struture at all during
the movies, so going by the multicoloured squares on everyone's
chest probably doesn't help in the comparison.
So much for my two cents.
Douglas.
--
Douglas Wilhelm Harder "You have yourself to blame for all
Dept of Mathematics and Statistics this! You're the one who annihilated
University of Guelph the Old Guard of the army; you had
Guelph, Ontario, Canada our best generals killed!"
dha...@sgi1.mathstat.uoguelph.ca - Marshal Voroshilov
"I am a complex man, but not in personality..." - Art Dash
ANDREW FRAM
I think it was the Imperial sourcebook. Anyone know what an emmisary
does?
Steve! (PHY)
On Sat, 8 Apr 1995, Wade Harshman wrote:
>
> To everyone who answered "yes":
>
> Did you notice that Vader disobeyed a few of Tarkin's orders? I think he
> let Tarkin run the show, but I don't think either one really "outranked"
> the other in any clear cut sense.
>
Right. Tarkin was a Grand Moff, probably the highest ranking government
official except for the Emperor, with military power to match.
But...Vader was the Dark Lord of the Sith, Palpatine's right-hand man,
and very powerful in the force. You simply don't want to get in a power
struggle with a guy like that :-) (I mean, how many guys did he kill in
those first few movies with just a wave of his hand?
K-Bye,
STEVE! (chet...@chuma.cas.usf.edu)
Glenn Saunders
I think people are implying that since Vader was a Jedi, that he had more
of a claim on authority than Tarkin.
But look at Vader's history. Vader was a hotshot pilot and NOT a tactician.
The Emperor eventually did give Vader total authority, but the Emperor
was not an idiot and he realized that, force or no, Tarkin was the best
man for the job.
Vader had to learn to be a good general. And at the time of ANH, he was
still more interested, it seems, in being a hotshot pilot than ordering
forces around in a command-room. Being a Jedi doesn't make you a good
general. It might make you feared, it might get people to follow you,
but you still have to learn how to win a battle.
It was only after he was humiliated by Han's shot that Vader was
convinced to put away his pilot-suit and assume total authority of the
Imperial fleet. It may have taken a reprimand from the Emperor himself
to do it, too.
Lou Trapani
death, he
was above Vader in rank, I believe.
-= Lou =- | lou_...@li.net | The Machine BBS 1-516-764-5748
Art Trap Productions | art...@aol.net | 24 hours - 14.4K - No Fee
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Stuart G. McGregor
: Darth Vader was an emmisary according to one of the sourcebooks.
: I think it was the Imperial sourcebook. Anyone know what an emmisary
: does?
Any thing they want? :)
MATTHEW B. MORRISON
I don't think Leia's remark about holding Vader's leash determines
anything. It seems it was meant to insult Vader and imply that he was under
Tarkin's command. That she would say this seems to indicate that Tarkin's
and Vader's power relationship was not a clear cut issue to anyone. Even
if it had been set down (by the Emperor) that one of them had authority over
the other, there was definitely something going between the lines.
Marissa Douglas
Wade Harshman <s102...@olivet.edu> writes:
> I've been trying to figure this one out for awhile. In fact, I posted on
> this a few days ago, but no one responded. :(
>
> I think Vader and Tarkin were on equal terms. Sure, Tarkin spoke to
> Vader like that, but Vader wasn't always the most congenial person to
> Tarkin, either.
Tarkin, as a regional governor, would definitely outrank Vader, in my
opinion, and he showed this a few times.
> I don't think Vader was military, per se. He gave orders, but the actual
> planning was always up to the generals, much like a president giving his
> army objectives to be met. And yet, he had his own TIE Fighter. I don't
> know of too many presidents that have their own F-15. It's a wierd
> relationship, one that I'm sure I don't fully understand, yet.
Vader was kind of an extension of the Emperor, one whom I believe the
Emperor made available to Tarkin to use as someone to get things done
right. This is also seen in ROTJ, when Vader says "I'm here to get you back
on schedule". But Tarkin was definitely in command. The only one who could
boss a Grand Moff and Regional Governor around would be the Emperor himself
or one of his ruling elite on Coruscant.
> But I'm pretty convinced that Vader was more of an extension of the
> Emperor. Even the SSD wasn't "Vader's ship", as it is so often called.
> It was a command ship and a flag ship, that's why Vader was on it. The
> ship itself belonged to Palpatine, if anyone, and it was Piett's ship if
> we can give it to anybody (or maybe there was a no name captain on board).
Well, in the Zahn books the Chimera isn't really Thrawn's ship either,
its Pellaeon's. So I assume the Executor wasn't Vader's but Piett's.
However the entire fleet as a whole was Vader's to command, as the entire
fleet in the Zahn books was Thrawn's.
>
> | | | |
> | _ | / _ \ | _ |
> |=-(_)=-| |=-(_)-=| |=-(_)-=|
> | | \ Darth / | |
> ` ' Wader ` '
>
*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*
* Marissa Louise Douglas*MD90...@Caper1.uccb.ns.ca*E-Mail Welcome! *
* ----------------------------------------------------------------- *
* "To live will be a very great adventure!" -Peter Banning, _Hook_ *
*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*
Jussi Hannula
> Tarkin, as a regional governor, would definitely outrank Vader, in my
> opinion, and he showed this a few times.
Heh heh... This reminds me of my favorite scene in Tombstone. After one
of the gunfights between the Earp brothers and the bad guys, the sheriff
tries to arrest the brothers. Wyatt Earp says: "I don't think I'll allow
you to arrest us today, sheriff" (or something like that) and there stands
the sheriff with no means to enforce his orders. That's kinda what I
would expect from Vader if someone (other than the Emperor) had really
tried to pull rank on him. You may well be right that technically Tarkin
outranked Vader, but my point is that ranks don't mean much to a Dark
Jedi if he/she so decides.
> Vader was kind of an extension of the Emperor, one whom I believe the
> Emperor made available to Tarkin to use as someone to get things done
> right. This is also seen in ROTJ, when Vader says "I'm here to get you back
> on schedule". But Tarkin was definitely in command. The only one who could
> boss a Grand Moff and Regional Governor around would be the Emperor himself
> or one of his ruling elite on Coruscant.
And the only one who could boss a Dark Jedi would be another stronger Dark
Jedi (or Force user). "The ability to pull rank is insignificant next to
the power of the Force." The only reason why Vader would let Tarkin give
commands is that he was professional and smart enough to understand that
maybe Tarkin was a better military genius than himself. But it was
definitely his decision to let that happen, nevertheless.
::::: ::: Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil>
:: ::::: :: :: ::::: ::::: US Air Force Academy, Class of '96
::::: ::..:: ::::::: :: ::..:: Major: Computer Science
:: :: :: :: :: :: Hometown: Helsinki, Finland
::::: :: :: :: ::::: ::::: "Never tell me the odds." -Han Solo
Craig Titterton,,,
On board the Death Star, Tarkin was the main man, although Vader was still
an authority to be obeyed. Vader was the Emperors personal rep on board
the Emperors "greatest weapon". To put it another way, he was the
enforcer. If Vader had no respect for the authority of Tarkin he would have
killed him. Note also that Tarkin was able to call Vader off at one stage.
A thought....perhaps Vaders reputation had not been so great amongst the
Imperial Senators and officers who sat at that table, as General Tagge was
not in the least bit hesitant at arguing with Vader. This is not the case
in TESB and ROTJ where ALL imperial officers seem to wince at the thought of
having to confront him. Just a thought. Any comments?
Craig.
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Lou Trapani
MORRISON, MORRISONMB97%CS...@cadetmail.usafa.af.mil writes:
>I don't think Leia's remark about holding Vader's leash determines
>anything. It seems it was meant to insult Vader and imply that he was
under
>Tarkin's command. That she would say this seems to indicate that
Tarkin's
>and Vader's power relationship was not a clear cut issue to anyone.
Even
This could very much be the case. I guess only Lucas knows for sure, if
he even thought it out thoroughly.
Dan Chapman
On Fri, 14 Apr 1995, ANDREW FRAM wrote:
> Darth Vader was an emmisary according to one of the sourcebooks.
> I think it was the Imperial sourcebook. Anyone know what an emmisary
> does?
>
>
Darth Vader was Lord of Sith what ever that ment
Marissa Douglas
David Allen Sobelsohn <da...@columbia.edu> writes:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Cecil Leung wrote:
>> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly
>> appeared so didn't it?
> Yes, he was the only one above vader besides the emperor.
I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
Jussi Hannula
> In message Fri, 7 Apr 1995 04:57:23 -0400,
> David Allen Sobelsohn <da...@columbia.edu> writes:
> > On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Cecil Leung wrote:
>
> >> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly
> >> appeared so didn't it?
> > Yes, he was the only one above vader besides the emperor.
> I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
How about providing some support for these arguments? Especially I would
like to see some hard evidence from the first person since he simply
states this as a fact. Beginning with "I think" is a good start if you
don't know something for sure. I'd still also like to see how the second
conclusion was made, however. Thank you.
____ ___
/ ___| _ __ / _ \ ___ ___ Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil>
\___ \| '_ \| |_| |/ __/ _ \ US Air Force Academy, Class of '96
___) | |_) | _ | (_| __/ Major: Computer Science
|____/| .__/|_| |_|\___\___| Hometown: Helsinki, Finland
|_| "Never tell me the odds." -Han Solo
Eric Ruenes
Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
>
>On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Marissa Douglas wrote:
>
>> In message Fri, 7 Apr 1995 04:57:23 -0400,
>> David Allen Sobelsohn <da...@columbia.edu> writes:
>> > On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Cecil Leung wrote:
>>
>> >> Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Darth Vader? It certainly
>> >> appeared so didn't it?
>
>> > Yes, he was the only one above vader besides the emperor.
>
>> I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank
Vader.
>
Grand Moff Tarkin outranked Vader-after all, he was already part of the
Empire when Vader was turned. However, Vader was of greater importance
simply because he was a Dark Lord of Sith. The Dark Lords (in a way)
were the Emporer's apprentices-for some reason, Vader was the only dark
lord who was addressed in the movies and/or books. Interesting point is
this -> who would have taken command of the Empire had the Emporer (not
Tarkin) been killed in SW: New Hope? Probably Tarkin because in New Hope
he did tell Vader to stop strangling one of the governors; but what
would keep Vader from taking the Emperor's position if he were consumed
by greed (which probably would happen anyway because the dark side is
not one for rationality and generosity-Vader would've been filled with
greed and usurped power from Tarkin).
Christopher A. Stansfield
: I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
I have to disagree. Darth Vader, in my mind, was basically an extension
of Palpatine, his representative, if you will. As you may have noticed,
Vader had no title (he wasn't "Admiral Vader", or "Governor Vader", and
yet, by the V episode he commanded the entire Imperial fleet. The point
is, second to the Emperor, Vader was the most powerful person in the
Empire, since his only duty was to make sure the Emperor's will was being
carried out. That he defferred to Tarkin, a powerful man in his own
right, does not contradict this. Tarkin was the OFFICIAL leader of his
men, and Vader understood that Tarkin would have to have respect if he
were to get the job done. Tarkin is also more of a military and
governmental strategist at this point. Though Vader was powerful, he was
pretty much just a mouthpeice for the Emperor. Until he was given
command over the fleet (akin to Palpatine directly rtunning the fleet,
though Vader), he wasn't meant to think much for himself.
Just as another example, if the supreme mucketymuck of the US
Military (I don't know who it is, (how embarrasing) but let's say its
Patton), was ordering troops around, President CLinton would, as
executive, and COmmander-In-CHief, would be more powerful. However, he
would defer to Patton's wisdom in most cases, since Patton was obviously
the military leader for a reason.
-Chris
JackCamden
>>who would have taken command of the Empire had the Emporer (not
Tarkin) been killed in SW: New Hope? Probably Tarkin because in New Hope
he did tell Vader to stop strangling one of the governors;
Vader doesn't strangle a governor, he strangles Admiral Motti. The meeting
on the Death Star is between Tarkin, Motti (one of the DS's champions),
and Tagge, a starfleet commander. In other words, it gathers the most
ruthless and ambitious of the governors and two of the most important
officers representing the old (Tagge) and new (Motti) military might of
the Empire.
The rest of your idea's on the money: what's being explored on the Death
Star is a coup: Tarkin destroys the rebellion with the Death Star, then
advances on Coruscant with the starfleet behind him to take the
throne...aided by the Emperor's faithless Dark Jedi servant.
Jack
Wade Harshman
> I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
But it always seemed that Vader chose who outranked him, which may be the
ultimate sign of power.
. * . .
. . . .
', . # . * , *
';;, * ## ___ ,-`. * .
. ';;;,,, . ####.-~~ ~~-.,-~ _~ . .
''|-O-| . #` `._- .
. . .` _-~.#### . . .
|-O-| | _- |########## .
* ;;;;; ` _-~ '#####/###_###\ .
. . .;;;' . _-~`. _-~ .' ###|=-(_)-=| *
,;;' ,-' _,-~`-__ __-' . \ Darth / .
. , ''' . ,.-~` . ~~~ . * Wader *
Current .sig from rwb...@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.auMon Apr 17 20:31:54 1995
Marissa Douglas
cas...@is.nyu.edu (Christopher A. Stansfield) writes:
[This should be quoted as Marissa Douglas wrote, cause its my sentence! :) ]
> : I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
>
> I have to disagree. Darth Vader, in my mind, was basically an extension
> of Palpatine, his representative, if you will. As you may have noticed,
> Vader had no title (he wasn't "Admiral Vader", or "Governor Vader", and
> yet, by the V episode he commanded the entire Imperial fleet.
> Just as example, if the supreme mucketymuck of the US
> Military (I don't know who it is, (how embarrasing) but let's say its
> Patton), was ordering troops around, President CLinton would, as
> executive, and COmmander-In-CHief, would be more powerful. However, he
> would defer to Patton's wisdom in most cases, since Patton was obviously
> the military leader for a reason.
But you miss an important point! Tarkin was *NOT* a military man! He was
a regional governor, not an Imperial Navy or Army official. The other
prople around the table scene in ANH (Tagge, etc) were the military people.
Tarkin was just what his title says: Governor. In your example, would
President Clinton defer to the Governor of Arkansas? Of course not. Tarkin
was in command of the Death Star, true, but thats because it was part of
his job as regional governor. A regional governor would definitely outrank
Darth Vader, who as you said had no real title. Vader was the Emperor's
most trusted right-hand-man, but if he had tried to usurp Tarkin's
authority without the Emperor's instructions to do so, I'm sure Tarkin
would have had Vader thrown in prison in 2 seconds flat.
> -Chris
Marissa Douglas
Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Marissa Douglas wrote:
>> I think any Regional Governor, including Tarkin, would outrank Vader.
> How about providing some support for these arguments?
> Beginning with "I think" is a good start if you
> don't know something for sure.
Argh! I've posted stuff about this a million times! I think Vader fans
would love to think he's the be-all and end-all of authority in the
Galaxy, but it just ain't so! Tarkin, as a Regional Governor, has as much
power as you can have without being either the Emperor or one of his ruling
elite on Coruscant. "The Regional Governors now have direct control over
the terrirories". He doesn't say "Darth Vader has direct control..."
or "the governors have control as long as they report to Vader" or
something.
Darth Vader is like the Emperor's right-hand man. He gets things done
and carries out the Emperor's will. Its true in the later movies he is
given a fleet (not *the* fleet, but *a* fleet "There are lots of command
ships" -Han), but in ANH he has no military rank or official status.
Fer cripes sake, Tarkin bosses him around, even threatens him, the
entire movie! Would Vader tolerate this treatment if he didn't have to? I
think not. Imagine if Ozzel or Piett had tried it in ESB or ROTJ.
I say again, if Vader tried to usurp Tarkin's authority in ANH without
express permission of the Emperor, Tarkin would have had Vader thrown in
prison and executed for treason without hesitation. If Vader tried it, he
would have been sharing a cell with his daughter.
I've checked my sources on this (the movie). Counterarguments anyone?
General Kev Benobi
First off Tarkin was part of the military and so actually had
a rank. Vader on the other hand was a citizen of the Empire.
He was not part of the military ranking and therefore comparing
the two is difficult.
Tarkin had the authority to do what he liked.
Vader had the ability to do what he liked.
A straight up confrontation would have been interesting indeed.
But I think Tarkin would win in the end because Vader says to
him "as you wish" which we all know means "I love you" and if
Vader really loved Tarkin, he would do what Tarkin wanted :-)
--
General Kev Benobi
Too much Star Wars is just barely enough!
"What's up Scoob? Nervous??"
Douglas M. Bragg
MORRISONMB97%CS...@cadetmail.usafa.af.mil (MATTHEW B. MORRISON) wrote:
> In article <3mpg3i$8...@linet02.li.net> Lou Trapani <lou_...@li.net> writes:
>
> >Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash" in ANH. At least before Tarkin's
> >death, he
> >was above Vader in rank, I believe.
> > -= Lou =- | lou_...@li.net | The Machine BBS 1-516-764-5748
> > Art Trap Productions | art...@aol.net | 24 hours - 14.4K - No Fee
> > ========================================================================
>
> I don't think Leia's remark about holding Vader's leash determines
> anything. It seems it was meant to insult Vader and imply that he was under
> Tarkin's command. That she would say this seems to indicate that Tarkin's
> and Vader's power relationship was not a clear cut issue to anyone. Even
> if it had been set down (by the Emperor) that one of them had authority over
> the other, there was definitely something going between the lines.
Grand Moff is the rank equal to a govenor, where Darth Vader was equal to
the Secretary of Defence. Thus, neither really outranked the other.
Vader had the military, Tarkin had the Death Star. Vader had greater
influence with the emporer, but not much control over Tarkin.
Jussi Hannula
> Fer cripes sake, Tarkin bosses him around, even threatens him, the
> entire movie! Would Vader tolerate this treatment if he didn't have to? I
> think not. Imagine if Ozzel or Piett had tried it in ESB or ROTJ.
> I say again, if Vader tried to usurp Tarkin's authority in ANH without
> express permission of the Emperor, Tarkin would have had Vader thrown in
> prison and executed for treason without hesitation. If Vader tried it, he
> would have been sharing a cell with his daughter.
I'm getting tired of this thread but can you just answer this one simple
question in your absolute certainty: how exactly do you think Tarkin would
have accomplished this? He was just a mortal man against the Dark Lord of
the Sith... The only person who could boss Vader without his consent was
the Emperor -- just because he was even stronger in the Dark Side of the
Force. But since I've already said this quite a few times, I assume that
you're willfully ignoring this point. I don't give a flying bantha crap
about whether Tarkin technically outranked Vader or not. He just could
have never enforced his superiority. Just like Thrawn could have never
enforced his on C'baoth without the Ysalamiri. GET IT???
> I've checked my sources on this (the movie). Counterarguments anyone?
Yes, I've pointed mine out a few times already but either you don't get
what I'm saying or you're just ignoring it because it proves your theory
wrong. Not that I really care.
Jussi Hannula
> First off Tarkin was part of the military and so actually had
> a rank. Vader on the other hand was a citizen of the Empire.
> He was not part of the military ranking and therefore comparing
> the two is difficult.
What makes you think that Tarkin was part of the military?
> Tarkin had the authority to do what he liked.
> Vader had the ability to do what he liked.
Exactly! I like that...
> A straight up confrontation would have been interesting indeed.
> But I think Tarkin would win in the end because Vader says to
> him "as you wish" which we all know means "I love you" and if
> Vader really loved Tarkin, he would do what Tarkin wanted :-)
Hmmh.... have you been reading "Star Whores" or how did you get THAT
idea? ;)
Collin Yeoh
>From: "Marissa Douglas" <MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca >
>Subject: Re: Did Grand Moff Tarkin outrank Vader?
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:10:49 -0600
> But you miss an important point! Tarkin was *NOT* a military man! He was
>a regional governor, not an Imperial Navy or Army official. The other
>prople around the table scene in ANH (Tagge, etc) were the military people.
>Tarkin was just what his title says: Governor. In your example, would
>President Clinton defer to the Governor of Arkansas? Of course not. Tarkin
>was in command of the Death Star, true, but thats because it was part of
>his job as regional governor. A regional governor would definitely outrank
>Darth Vader, who as you said had no real title. Vader was the Emperor's
>most trusted right-hand-man, but if he had tried to usurp Tarkin's
>authority without the Emperor's instructions to do so, I'm sure Tarkin
>would have had Vader thrown in prison in 2 seconds flat.
Duh....a problem with this. If Tarkin was a Governor (therefore Politician)
and not in the Military, why was he wearing a *uniform*?
I think this whole discussion is pointless (as are half of the discussions
I've participated in or *started*, but doesn't make them any less fun :-). I
think it doesn't *matter* who outranked who, it's obvious from the movie that
both Vader and Tarkin had plenty of healthy respect for each other. I've
already said that Vader is not psychotic enough to simply murder any officer
who so much as annoys him - both Ozzel and Needa had made *plenty* of
screw-ups prior to the ones which ultimately got them killed, IMO. And Admiral
Tagge, whom Vader strangles at the board room meeting, had only made an unwise
insult at Vader, which was enough to warrant a quick "I'M the boss here" from
Vader, but *not* enough to kill him - therefore Tarkin telling him to stop
meant nothing. Therefore Vader would never kill Tarkin just because he wasn't
properly "respectful" of the Dark Lord. Tarkin served the Emperor and the
Empire well, and Vader knew he had to work with him. If, and only IF, they
ever got into open hostilities, *then* as someone posted before, it would be
an interesting conflict. But the reason why this discussion is pointless is
that neither Vader nor Tarkin would *ever* openly declare war on each other,
because they were comrades-in-arms in every sense. Besides, even if they did,
I don't think *rank* would be a deciding factor.
Marissa Douglas
Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Marissa Douglas wrote:
>> I say again, if Vader tried to usurp Tarkin's authority in ANH
>> without express permission of the Emperor, Tarkin would have had Vader
>> thrown in prison and executed for treason without hesitation. If Vader
>> tried it, he would have been sharing a cell with his daughter.
> I'm getting tired of this thread but can you just answer this one simple
> question in your absolute certainty: how exactly do you think Tarkin would
> have accomplished this?
I think it would have gone something like this: "Guards! Place Lord
Vader under arrest!"
> He was just a mortal man against the Dark Lord of
> the Sith... The only person who could boss Vader without his consent was
> the Emperor -- just because he was even stronger in the Dark Side of the
> Force.
No, the stormtroopers would have just shot him. Even Vader has limits. If
you think he could singlehandedly beat a stormtrooper squadron you suffer
from "Vader Overestimation Error". :)
> But since I've already said this quite a few times, I assume that
> you're willfully ignoring this point.
Nope.
> [Tarkin] just could
> have never enforced his superiority. GET IT???
I think it would go something like "Guards! Place Lord Vader under arrest."
If he resists, the stormtroopers shoot him.
> Yes, I've pointed mine out a few times already but either you don't get
> what I'm saying or you're just ignoring it because it proves your theory
> wrong.
Nope to both. I just think its a silly argument.
> Not that I really care.
Aww! I wasted all this time writing this message, posting it, etc etc and
now you tell me that you dont even care! Jeez the least you could have done
is put the "I don't care" part at the beginning, so I could have saved
myself some time! :)
Marissa Douglas
dbr...@europa.com (Douglas M. Bragg) writes:
> Grand Moff is the rank equal to a govenor, where Darth Vader was equal to
> the Secretary of Defence. Thus, neither really outranked the other.
> Vader had the military, Tarkin had the Death Star. Vader had greater
> influence with the emporer, but not much control over Tarkin.
This is about exactly right, IMHO. However on board the Death Star
Tarkin's word was law. Thus he technically out ranked Vader, at least while
on the station.
MATTHEW B. MORRISON
>In message Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:16:50 -0600,
> Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Marissa Douglas wrote:
>>> I say again, if Vader tried to usurp Tarkin's authority in ANH
>>> without express permission of the Emperor, Tarkin would have had Vader
>>> thrown in prison and executed for treason without hesitation. If Vader
>>> tried it, he would have been sharing a cell with his daughter.
>> I'm getting tired of this thread but can you just answer this one simple
>> question in your absolute certainty: how exactly do you think Tarkin would
>> have accomplished this?
> I think it would have gone something like this: "Guards! Place Lord
>Vader under arrest!"
>> He was just a mortal man against the Dark Lord of
>> the Sith... The only person who could boss Vader without his consent was
>> the Emperor -- just because he was even stronger in the Dark Side of the
>> Force.
> No, the stormtroopers would have just shot him. Even Vader has limits. If
>you think he could singlehandedly beat a stormtrooper squadron you suffer
>from "Vader Overestimation Error". :)
NO WAY!!! Vader could make easy work of a storm trooper squadron. You
think blasters are going to bother him? Check out the seen where he meets
Han Solo in ESB. Even dealing with an outnumbered attack, Vader could
plausibly win. Think about ESB when he starts throwing things at Luke with
the force. He doesn't even look like he's trying hard. It's like he's
standing there saying "Now I will mock you. You thought you had a chance
before, but you never did." He wouldn't have any trouble dealing with the
numbers if he can toss that much debris around. Even if Tarkin tried to
have him arrested, you have to consider the loyalty of the storm troopers.
I have a hard time believing they would unquestioningly try to arrest the
Emperor's top henchman, just because Tarkin said so. Their loyalty is to
the Emperor, not Tarkin. Last argument for Vader defeating a storm trooper
squad: "You don't need to arrest me... I'm not the Sith Lord your looking
for... You can go about your business... Move along."
>> But since I've already said this quite a few times, I assume that
>> you're willfully ignoring this point.
> Nope.
>> [Tarkin] just could
>> have never enforced his superiority. GET IT???
> I think it would go something like "Guards! Place Lord Vader under arrest."
>If he resists, the stormtroopers shoot him.
>> Yes, I've pointed mine out a few times already but either you don't get
>> what I'm saying or you're just ignoring it because it proves your theory
>> wrong.
> Nope to both. I just think its a silly argument.
>> Not that I really care.
> Aww! I wasted all this time writing this message, posting it, etc etc and
>now you tell me that you dont even care! Jeez the least you could have done
>is put the "I don't care" part at the beginning, so I could have saved
>myself some time! :)
>*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*
>* Marissa Louise Douglas*MD90...@Caper1.uccb.ns.ca*E-Mail Welcome! *
>* ----------------------------------------------------------------- *
>* "To live will be a very great adventure!" -Peter Banning, _Hook_ *
>*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"
- Obi-Wan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jussi Hannula
> In message Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:16:50 -0600,
> Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
> > I'm getting tired of this thread but can you just answer this one simple
> > question in your absolute certainty: how exactly do you think Tarkin would
> > have accomplished this?
>
> I think it would have gone something like this: "Guards! Place Lord
> Vader under arrest!"
Sure, anyone can give orders but the important part is what happens next.
Did you see my Tombstone analogy? I think that's very similar to what
would have happened next in this scenario... Except that it was bloodless
while this would have ended with a dead Tarkin and a pile of dead
stormtroopers. Or, it just might be that Vader would have just smiled
inside his mask while the stormtroopers would have killed their Grand Moff
-- you don't really know who they were more loyal to (though I'm pretty
sure you THINK you know the truth). And, as always, I also accept the
possibility that I'm wrong and they would have gotten Vader. I just think
it's highly unlikely, and totally impossible without a terrible bloodshed.
I especially doubt that Tarkin would have survived that attempt even in
that case.
> > He was just a mortal man against the Dark Lord of
> > the Sith... The only person who could boss Vader without his consent was
> > the Emperor -- just because he was even stronger in the Dark Side of the
> > Force.
>
> No, the stormtroopers would have just shot him. Even Vader has limits. If
> you think he could singlehandedly beat a stormtrooper squadron you suffer
> from "Vader Overestimation Error". :)
Perhaps I do, perhaps I don't. What I do know for sure is that you have
as few tools to make that diagnosis as I do. We don't really know Vader's
true potential, do we? Since I've seen you quote Zahn as a reliable
source elsewhere, I assume you might consider this then: C'baoth took
control of Thrawn's whole flagship and its crew in a split second. What
could Thrawn do then? I don't think Vader was quite as powerful as
C'baoth (or he wouldn't have served the Emperor) but he was still powerful
enough to make any attempt on Tarkin's part to subdue him suicidal, even
if Vader himself had died in the end. Remember what Ben said about Vader:
"I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him." Remember also that he
was the one who helped to destroy all the other Jedi -- and survived
himself. Sounds like some sort of evidence to me that he had some
substantial powers that we never saw in the movies. No, I don't think it
would have been quite as easy as you make it seem. I think it's you who
are mistaken, about a great many things...
> I think it would go something like "Guards! Place Lord Vader under arrest."
> If he resists, the stormtroopers shoot him.
Sure, he could have done that. But as I've tried to point out, neither I
nor you know what would have happened next. I don't claim that I know for
sure that Vader would have beaten the stormtroopers, and if you're smart
you won't try to claim that you know for sure that they would have beaten
Vader. We just don't know. However, I'm pretty sure of one thing: Tarkin
would not have been close to the place where this episode took place...
And still, I would like to hear the confidence level of his voice when he
gave this order.
> > Yes, I've pointed mine out a few times already but either you don't get
> > what I'm saying or you're just ignoring it because it proves your theory
> > wrong.
>
> Nope to both. I just think its a silly argument.
Well, that's a beginning. It's a mutual feeling, you know... :) Not
that I really... oops, sorry. ;)
MTFBWY,
Benjamin Rice
Didn't Moff Tarkin command Vader to remove the choke hold on random Imperial
guy in New Hope? And didn't Vader do it? Seems to me Tarkin outranks Vader
emmasary or not.
Ben Rice
Wade Harshman
Ooo! Here's something I just thought of. This is stretching it a bit,
but it sort of explains how I think Vader and Tarkin related. Vader on
the DS was like Al Gore in California. Pete Wilson is governor, so Al
Gore has to live under his laws. This might restrict Gore a bit... one
might say Wilson had "a leash" on Gore. However, if the situation
warrented it, Gore *could* pull rank on Wilson in the name of the
federation, and thus their situation would be null.
Again, this isn't totally fitting to Vader (Dark Lord, right hand of an
Imperious leader) and Tarkin (Regional governor who ruled "with an iron
fist"), but I think it sort of illustrates how neither one really
outranked the other.
Morpheus
>NO WAY!!! Vader could make easy work of a storm trooper squadron. You
>think blasters are going to bother him? Check out the seen where he meets
>Han Solo in ESB. Even dealing with an outnumbered attack, Vader could
>plausibly win. Think about ESB when he starts throwing things at Luke with
>the force. He doesn't even look like he's trying hard. It's like he's
>standing there saying "Now I will mock you. You thought you had a chance
>before, but you never did." He wouldn't have any trouble dealing with the
>numbers if he can toss that much debris around. Even if Tarkin tried to
>have him arrested, you have to consider the loyalty of the storm troopers.
>I have a hard time believing they would unquestioningly try to arrest the
>Emperor's top henchman, just because Tarkin said so. Their loyalty is to
>the Emperor, not Tarkin. Last argument for Vader defeating a storm trooper
>squad: "You don't need to arrest me... I'm not the Sith Lord your looking
>for... You can go about your business... Move along."
All of your examples deal with how one-on-one confrontations... Vader and
Luke, Vader and Han, Obi-Wan and the Stormtrooper (he was only talking to
the commanding trooper). If Vader was confronted with a squad of storm-
troopers, I think Vader would have a pretty good chance of being defeated.
As far as stormtroopers being more loyal to the emporer... I'm sure you're
right! But I seriously doubt Tarkin would try to arrest Vader unless
Vader himself was acting against the empire in the first place.
Morpheus
Wade Harshman
> In message Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:16:50 -0600,
> Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> writes:
>
> > I'm getting tired of this thread but can you just answer this one simple
> > question in your absolute certainty: how exactly do you think Tarkin would
> > have accomplished this?
>
> I think it would have gone something like this: "Guards! Place Lord
> Vader under arrest!"
Heh heh. Yeah, right.
1) Would all the guards unanimously support Tarkin over Vader? After
all, Vader seemed to associate himself with troops and pilots (and he
liked to distance himself from officers).
2) Would many troops have the GUTS to TRY to take Vader away?
3) Would many troops have the guts to take away the Emperor's right hand?
> > He was just a mortal man against the Dark Lord of
> > the Sith... The only person who could boss Vader without his consent was
> > the Emperor -- just because he was even stronger in the Dark Side of the
> > Force.
>
> No, the stormtroopers would have just shot him. Even Vader has limits. If
> you think he could singlehandedly beat a stormtrooper squadron you suffer
> from "Vader Overestimation Error". :)
See above. I doubt an entire squadron would follow through with Tarkin's
order, especially after just one, good, dirty, threatening look from Vader.
nathan j burns
under any Govonor or Grand Moff. Dark Lord is not a rank of the Empire.
Also, I am pretty sure that the Grand Moff's have controll over whole
fleets that are not necessarily answerable to another Grand Moff.
Nate
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
| The strangest living boy you | njb...@mik.uky.edu |
| could ever wish to see...... | njb...@ukpr.uky.edu |
| that's me. | |
| -Gary Numan | write to mik address |
------------------------------------------------------------------
General Kev Benobi
: On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, General Kev Benobi wrote:
: > First off Tarkin was part of the military and so actually had
: > a rank. Vader on the other hand was a citizen of the Empire.
: > He was not part of the military ranking and therefore comparing
: > the two is difficult.
: What makes you think that Tarkin was part of the military?
Well he is in charge of the Death Star. And the Death Star is the
most powerful military weapon ever built. His uniform. The way
nobody else ever questions him (except Vader).
: > Tarkin had the authority to do what he liked.
: > Vader had the ability to do what he liked.
: Exactly! I like that...
Thank you.
: > A straight up confrontation would have been interesting indeed.
: > But I think Tarkin would win in the end because Vader says to
: > him "as you wish" which we all know means "I love you" and if
: > Vader really loved Tarkin, he would do what Tarkin wanted :-)
: Hmmh.... have you been reading "Star Whores" or how did you get THAT
: idea? ;)
Watch the Princess Bride. Everyone should anyway.
--
General Kev Benobi
Too much Star Wars is just barely enough!
You don't know the power of the Dark Side.
General Kev Benobi
: Didn't Moff Tarkin command Vader to remove the choke hold on random Imperial
: guy in New Hope? And didn't Vader do it? Seems to me Tarkin outranks Vader
: emmasary or not.
Did you notice that the choke hold remained for a second or so AFTER
Vader had said "as you wish" and walked away. It was a subtle
reminder that Vader was choosing to do what Tarkin said but that he
didn't have to.
--
General Kev Benobi
Too much Star Wars is just barely enough!
Cigarettes are now the greatest producer of statistics.
Wade Harshman
> Didn't Moff Tarkin command Vader to remove the choke hold on random Imperial
> guy in New Hope? And didn't Vader do it? Seems to me Tarkin outranks Vader
> emmasary or not.
Don't forget, though, to count the times Vader said "No" to Tarkin. He
even yelled at him, once: "What do you mean?" Those two stood and
calculated together, it's real hard to say one "outranked" the other (see
Al Gore/Pete Wilson analogy).
KE6 - Eddy Tanumihardja
His empire needs bureaucracy, his armed forces need proper organization
ranks and system of authority. Hence, Grand Moff Tarkin.
On the other hand, he keeps a staff of personal assistant or executives
whom he sends on missions outside normal bureaucratic channels, either
by personal choice (secrecy etc) or by nature. So he got this bunch of
hunchos whom he sends with his authority as inspectors, hunters,
executioners, auditors etc with all lights go to get the job done.
Hence, Vader.
So Vader can expect all co-operations from staff in the Imperial service
to get his job done. He would not unnecessarily inconvenience or step on
high-ranking officers' feet when it got nothing to do with the job, not
because he was afraid of them but Palpatine wouldn't like it if he
abused his authority to screw up Palpatine's other servants who were
doing their jobs. Same with the other servants, they could not refuse
Vader anything that would aid him.
ET
Marissa Douglas
k6t...@iss.nus.sg (KE6 - Eddy Tanumihardja) writes:
> Look at it from Palpatine's point of view.
> His empire needs bureaucracy, his armed forces need proper organization
> ranks and system of authority. Hence, Grand Moff Tarkin.
> So Vader can expect all co-operations from staff in the Imperial service
> to get his job done. He would not unnecessarily inconvenience or step on
> high-ranking officers' feet when it got nothing to do with the job, not
> because he was afraid of them but Palpatine wouldn't like it if he
> abused his authority to screw up Palpatine's other servants who were
> doing their jobs.
Agreed, but also because he would be outranked by many of them, too.
> Same with the other servants, they could not refuse
> Vader anything that would aid him.
Nope, sorry, no dice. If Tarkin refused Vader something, he could cry about
it all he wanted, but unless he got the Emperor's clearance he would be out
of luck.
And if Tarkin ever saw Vader insubordinating him, Darth would find himself
in a holding cell.
> ET
Wade Harshman
Vader in a cell. That's STILL so funny.
Reo H. Maynard
: I think that, even though Vared was Dark Lord and right hand man, he is
: Also, I am pretty sure that the Grand Moff's have controll over whole
: fleets that are not necessarily answerable to another Grand Moff.
Vader was under Tarkin in ANH. It wasn't until ESB that the Emperor gave
Vader his own command to pursue the Rebels across the galaxy. Beforehand
he was pretty much like the Emperor's agent. The ANH Radio Drama alludes to
this.
--
_____________________________
-Scipio [sci...@infi.net] \
Reo H. Maynard III at InfiNet |
_____________________________ /
Jussi Hannula
> Vader in a cell. That's STILL so funny.
Yes, sirree! I guess these people believe they had already discovered
the Ysalamiri.
-SpAce-
Ville Lehtonen
: In <1995Apr24.0...@scorch.hna.com.au> ben...@scorch.hna.com.au
: >
: >Did you notice that the choke hold remained for a second or so AFTER
: >Vader had said "as you wish" and walked away. It was a subtle
: >reminder that Vader was choosing to do what Tarkin said but that he
: >didn't have to.
: You all know this, but at risk of flames I'll mention:
: Leia, to Tarkin: 'Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find
: you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was
: brought on board.'
: Now either Leia is recognizing Tarkin's rank over Vader, or she's
: sarcastically thumbing it to Vader, who is standing silently by.
: Surely she knows Vader could just as soon break the old man in half!
And the other "old man" comes very angry endeed to Vader for killing
his best officer.. This old man wouldn't be too easy break in half,
though.. (if they would after Ben's death, the Emperor would propably
kill Vader because he was revolting).
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
J. McAleece
On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Marissa Douglas wrote:
> In message 27 Apr 1995 13:36:50 GMT,
> k6t...@iss.nus.sg (KE6 - Eddy Tanumihardja) writes:
>
> > Look at it from Palpatine's point of view.
>
> > His empire needs bureaucracy, his armed forces need proper organization
> > ranks and system of authority. Hence, Grand Moff Tarkin.
>
> > So Vader can expect all co-operations from staff in the Imperial service
> > to get his job done. He would not unnecessarily inconvenience or step on
> > high-ranking officers' feet when it got nothing to do with the job, not
> > because he was afraid of them but Palpatine wouldn't like it if he
> > abused his authority to screw up Palpatine's other servants who were
> > doing their jobs.
>
> Agreed, but also because he would be outranked by many of them, too.
>
> > Same with the other servants, they could not refuse
> > Vader anything that would aid him.
>
> Nope, sorry, no dice. If Tarkin refused Vader something, he could cry about
> it all he wanted, but unless he got the Emperor's clearance he would be out
> of luck.
> And if Tarkin ever saw Vader insubordinating him, Darth would find himself
> in a holding cell.
>
> > ET
> > Vader does not need a rank. He is essentially the emperor's
lackey. He keeps things in order for him, kind of like a reminder to the
emperor's staff-"If you screw around- Good ol' Vader will put you in
line" He is feared and therefore suits this position well.
Just my 2 cents.
Admiral Piett
Peter D Fisher
Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil> wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, General Kev Benobi wrote:
>> A straight up confrontation would have been interesting indeed.
>> But I think Tarkin would win in the end because Vader says to
>> him "as you wish" which we all know means "I love you" and if
>> Vader really loved Tarkin, he would do what Tarkin wanted :-)
>
>Hmmh.... have you been reading "Star Whores" or how did you get THAT
>idea? ;)
It's a line from "The Princess Bride".
_______________________________________________________________________
|Peter D Fisher | "Kiss My Wookiee" - Han Solo |
|nstn...@fox.nstn.ca | The Courtship Of Princess Leia |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "I will love him and squeeze him and hold him and I will call him |
| George" The Abnonin...The Abobati...The Abosta...The Yeti |
=======================================================================
KE6 - Eddy Tanumihardja
: > So Vader can expect all co-operations from staff in the Imperial service
: > to get his job done. He would not unnecessarily inconvenience or step on
: > high-ranking officers' feet when it got nothing to do with the job, not
: > because he was afraid of them but Palpatine wouldn't like it if he
: > abused his authority to screw up Palpatine's other servants who were
: > doing their jobs.
: Agreed, but also because he would be outranked by many of them, too.
I doubt if Vader had a rank in the hierarchy.
: > Same with the other servants, they could not refuse
: > Vader anything that would aid him.
: Nope, sorry, no dice. If Tarkin refused Vader something, he could cry about
: it all he wanted, but unless he got the Emperor's clearance he would be out
: of luck.
The assumption is whenever the Emperor gave Vader a mission, it is do
whatever you have to, just get the job done. If Tarkin refused Vader
without good reasons, Vader would not be bothered, it's Tarkin who would
be whining. And if Vader got the job done, Palpatine would not be lose
sleep if Tarkin complained.
: And if Tarkin ever saw Vader insubordinating him, Darth would find himself
: in a holding cell.
And what's to keep him in there ?
Nah, both Vader and Tarkin ain't stupid. Tarkin's rank does not cover
Vader. Vader's official authority comes from Palpatine's commission, not
found in the hierarchy of ranks. Both work out of common sense, not
ranking over each other.
ET
Chris Frain
been wondering about this for about 16 years now.
--
Chris Frain
"You wanna buy a monkey?" - Dave Letterman, from "Cabin Boy"
Arturo Salazar
In a previous article, MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca ("Marissa Douglas") says:
> Nope, sorry, no dice. If Tarkin refused Vader something, he could cry about
>it all he wanted, but unless he got the Emperor's clearance he would be out
>of luck.
> And if Tarkin ever saw Vader insubordinating him, Darth would find himself
>in a holding cell.
>
Yeah right! Tell me, who would Tarkin use to place Vader under arrest?
--
Art Salazar
ao...@lafn.org
Larry Latouf
Vader respected the Emperor, and the Emperor put Vader under Tarkin. If
Tarkin gave Vader an order, he would obey, just as he would obey the
Emperor. After the original Death Star was destroyed (and Tarkin and the
others with it), Vader became more powerful because there was noone else.
Ville Lehtonen
: In a previous article, MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca ("Marissa Douglas") says:
:> Nope, sorry, no dice. If Tarkin refused Vader something, he could
:> cry about it all he wanted, but unless he got the Emperor's clearance
:> he would be out of luck. And if Tarkin ever saw Vader insubordinating
:> him, Darth would find himself in a holding cell.
: Yeah right! Tell me, who would Tarkin use to place Vader under arrest?
Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Brian Jennings
>(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
>vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
Oh, come on! First of all, Vader has no problems with killing people.
Second, he can absorb blaster shots, as demonstrated on Bespin. Thirdly,
Vader can deflect any blaster shots with his lightsaber. 10 or 20 ST's
wouldn't do a damned thing to Lord Vader.
-Apocalypse
-------
Sent from Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School.
Quantum BBS/E-Mail (508)443-4644
The views expressed in this posting are those of the individual.
-------
Ville Lehtonen
: >Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
: >(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
: >vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
: Oh, come on! First of all, Vader has no problems with killing people.
: Second, he can absorb blaster shots, as demonstrated on Bespin. Thirdly,
: Vader can deflect any blaster shots with his lightsaber. 10 or 20 ST's
: wouldn't do a damned thing to Lord Vader.
In Zahns book, Luke had trouble deflecting 6 stormtroopers blaster shots
(the lightsaber _can't_ be anywhere, even if you are a jedi...). He con-
centrated on Hans shot.., he wouldn't be able to absorb all of the.
20 STs would do nicely (if he wouldn't try to flee...).
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
General Kev Benobi
: : Yeah right! Tell me, who would Tarkin use to place Vader under arrest?
: Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
: (Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
: vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
Yeah, right. 10-20 St's couldn't arrest a tired, old
weak-willed, small, non-agressive, deaf and blind ewok.
Get with the plan.
--
General Kev Benobi
Too much Star Wars is just barely enough!
"Can you move?"
"You're alive. If you want I can fly."
Brian Sheva Lutchmeesingh
Vader to maintain fear, and in turn order, in the ranks of the
Imperial Hiearchy. Tarkin did not necessarily outrank Vader but
he was recognized as the official representative of the Imperial
Armed Forces. Darth could have disposed of Tarkin should he
wanted to but I imagine that the Emperor would have been most
displeased with him. It costs good money to groom a good servant
like Tarkin. Remember...."Don't be too proud of this
technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy
a planet is insignificant to the power of the force." Even though
the full extent of Vader's powers were never revealed, they were
more than enough to have Tarkin talk to him as an
equal...remember, he did not force Vader to release the
insubordinate imperial officer....Vader did so of his own
choosing.
Ville Lehtonen (v...@mini.mits.mdata.fi) wrote:
: Brian Jennings (Brian_J...@lsrhs.linsud.k12.ma.us) wrote:
: : >Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
: : >(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
: : >vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
: : Oh, come on! First of all, Vader has no problems with killing people.
Jussi Hannula
> Brian Jennings (Brian_J...@lsrhs.linsud.k12.ma.us) wrote:
> : >Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
> : >(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
> : >vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
>
> : Oh, come on! First of all, Vader has no problems with killing people.
> : Second, he can absorb blaster shots, as demonstrated on Bespin. Thirdly,
> : Vader can deflect any blaster shots with his lightsaber. 10 or 20 ST's
> : wouldn't do a damned thing to Lord Vader.
>
> In Zahns book, Luke had trouble deflecting 6 stormtroopers blaster shots
> (the lightsaber _can't_ be anywhere, even if you are a jedi...).
1) Who cares what Zahn says? 2) Don't forget that Luke tries to do things
the light side way, i.e. he doesn't use any handy dark side tricks and
avoids killing people whenever possible. Defending yourself is a lot
harder if you're restricted to using only passive methods instead of
aggressively attacking your enemies first. Why do you think offense is
the number one principle of war? It's called initiative... Also, if you
have self-imposed restrictions on the methods you can use, you're at a
disadvantage. Think about what would have happened in the Vietnam War if
the US military would have been allowed to move to offensive and would
have had no restrictions.... I really doubt the North would have had a
chance. That's the big difference here too -- unlike Luke, Darth wasn't
restricted by the light side and could have used whatever methods he had
available without second thoughts. I'm not implying the dark side is
stronger, just that in cases like that it could have made a difference.
Also, IF we consider Zahn as an authority, think about what C'baoth could
do to the whole crew of a Star Destroyer....
> He con-
> centrated on Hans shot.., he wouldn't be able to absorb all of the.
> 20 STs would do nicely (if he wouldn't try to flee...).
He wouldn't have to absorb anything if he kicked their asses before they
even got to shoot... like with a little twisting of their minds or so.
Not very demanding, considering the obvious mental level of stormtroopers.
Besides, there's no way either Tarkin or the stormtroopers could have made
such a plot without Vader knowing about it (=sensing), so they could have
never surprised him.
____ ___
/ ___| _ __ / _ \ ___ ___ Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil>
\___ \| '_ \| |_| |/ __/ _ \ US Air Force Academy, Class of '96
___) | |_) | _ | (_| __/ Major: Computer Science
|____/| .__/|_| |_|\___\___| Hometown: Helsinki, Finland
|_| "Never tell me the odds." -Han Solo
JackCamden
I've read your intense stormtrooper debate, and I have another burning
question: Do you think Superman could beat up Batman?
Curious,
Jack
James T. Green
>2) Don't forget that Luke tries to do things
>the light side way, i.e. he doesn't use any handy dark side tricks and
>avoids killing people whenever possible. Defending yourself is a lot
>harder if you're restricted to using only passive methods instead of
>aggressively attacking your enemies first. Why do you think offense is
>the number one principle of war? It's called initiative... Also, if you
>have self-imposed restrictions on the methods you can use, you're at a
>disadvantage. Think about what would have happened in the Vietnam War if
>the US military would have been allowed to move to offensive and would
>have had no restrictions.... I really doubt the North would have had a
>chance.
[...]
A sideline from the Star Wars Debate:
Above we see the same tired old argument that we were "held back" in
Vietnam and that's why we lost. Normally I'd just look at this as just
another misinformed nitwit. After all, we dropped more explosives on
North Vietnam than in every other war up till then combined...and we are
still compared to the "light side" by implication in spite of this. We
used everything short of nukes on the North. But when I saw the sig
below, I wonder if perhaps a dogma isn't being spread by the "teachers" in
the military acadamies.
I fear for the future of our nation with future military officers spouting
nonsense like that. If you liked Vietnam, you'll love (...)...
> ____ ___
>/ ___| _ __ / _ \ ___ ___ Jussi Hannula <hann...@cs.usafa.af.mil>
>\___ \| '_ \| |_| |/ __/ _ \ US Air Force Academy, Class of '96
> ___) | |_) | _ | (_| __/ Major: Computer Science
>|____/| .__/|_| |_|\___\___| Hometown: Helsinki, Finland
> |_| "Never tell me the odds." -Han Solo
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgr...@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| Slogans of two generations: 1970s: Question Authority! |
| 1990s: Why Ask Why? |
\___________{-: http://www.calpoly.edu/~jgreen :-}______________/
Michael J. Peiluck
Grand Moff, Moff, Commander). However, he did possess the title of "Lord"
and was in direct contact with the Emporer. I'd guess that he was on
equal footing with GMT, but like with any royal family member, could muster
quite a bit of political muscle if necessary.
ex:
Grand Moff X:"I don't have to obey Vader's orders; he does not actually
outrank me."
Officer:"No, but he can take his case to the Emporer if need be."
GMX:"Oh. I see. I think I'll follow Vader's plan."
--------------------------------------
Michael J. Peiluck
PSI-COR ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTANTS LTD.
Suite 140, 440-10816 Macleod Trail S.
Calgary, Alberta, CANADA T2J 5N8
--------------------------------------
On Tue, 16 May 1995, General Kev Benobi wrote:
> Ville Lehtonen did bless us with:
>
> : : Yeah right! Tell me, who would Tarkin use to place Vader under arrest?
>
> : Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
> : (Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
> : vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
>
john william mills
: >Stormtroopers. Jedis are by no means invulnerable against non-Jedis
: >(Luke being hit at Jabbas place), so 10 or 20 stormtroopers should con-
: >vince him that surrendering would be intelligent...
: Oh, come on! First of all, Vader has no problems with killing people.
: Second, he can absorb blaster shots, as demonstrated on Bespin. Thirdly,
: Vader can deflect any blaster shots with his lightsaber. 10 or 20 ST's
: wouldn't do a damned thing to Lord Vader.
: -Apocalypse
ah, yes, my fine friends, but isn't it possible that Vader was actually
weaker in the first movie? and he was filled with so much hatred and
desire for vengeance after ANH htat he became the unstoppable moster in
ESB. I think it's a very viable possibility.
However, as to why he would obey Tarkin : MILITARY RESPECT/ HONOR. When you
are onboard someone else's vessel, you follow their orders because it's
their command. Even an Admiral must take a Captain's orders when aboard
his ship, and if he doesn't, he'd better have a f*cking good reason.
The reason? morale. everybody is a trooper is what it essentially says.
And besides, Vader was a LORD, which when I last checked was not a
military ranking. He was a special advisor from the Emperor, that's all.
Also, if you want to say that he was as strong as he was in ESB, well :
killing captains and admirals is bad, very bad. But Tarkin and the
Emperor, and the military as a whole couldn't afford Motti's death since
he was apparently key to the military and political support for the DS.
ALSO, Vader didn't want to kill him, he just wanted to scare the shit out
of him.
and thats' my $2.12 + tax.
hansolo
______________________________________________________________________________
THIS TRANSMISSION ENDS.......NOW!
-Star Trek VI
______________________________________________________________________________
This is what he's doing....BANG!BANG!BANG!.....ASSHOLE!
-Mr.White in Reservoir Dogs
It's better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool.
-Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man
Bacon tastes good, Pork Chops taste good....
-Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction
Uh, hey baby.
-Butt-head
______________________________________________________________________________
Eu...@waikato.ac.nz
I would have thought that in ESB, Vader would have been given complete
control over the battle group the emperor assigned him to track down the
rebels. If one of the personnel pissed him off so much that he killed
him, thats the life of a soldier. Anyway, I think that the idea was to
portray Vader as being really driven by hatred and evil, so show the Dark
Side of the Force to the public.
--
"I look at the world and see no understanding" Dream Theater - 'Learning to Live'
Matt Korth
>However, as to why he would obey Tarkin : MILITARY RESPECT/ HONOR. When you
>are onboard someone else's vessel, you follow their orders because it's
>their command. Even an Admiral must take a Captain's orders when aboard
>his ship, and if he doesn't, he'd better have a f*cking good reason.
>The reason? morale. everybody is a trooper is what it essentially says.
>And besides, Vader was a LORD, which when I last checked was not a
>military ranking. He was a special advisor from the Emperor, that's all.
My guess would be that Vader and Tarkin had different spheres of influence.
Tarkin was the commander of the Death Star, with a military rank. Vader, on
the other hand, was a Dark Jedi and personal agent of the Emperor, with no
such rank until ESB.
>ALSO, Vader didn't want to kill him, he just wanted to scare the shit out
>of him.
I'd say he succeeded.
--
mko...@mail.alliance.net
"Apology *accepted*, Captain Needa" --DV
Noel Aronson
: Guys,
: question: Do you think Superman could beat up Batman?
That's already been settled. Read "The Dark Knight Returns" by Frank Miller.
--
Noel Aronson a015...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jedi Knights don't wait fifteen years for a sequel.
-Binkley, Bloom County-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DRagan487
correct that higher-ranking visiting personnel are expected to obey orders
given by the commander of the vessel (station/base/take your pick).
In what I have read (whether canon or not), the large star destroyer in
ESB/ROTJ, the SSD Executor, has always been designated as Vader's
flagship, in essence making him the commander of the battle group. And,
apparently, even with the reputation of being a tough ship (as evidenced
by the Admiral coming out of hyperspace too early - Ouch, tough house),
there must have been a line to be assigned. In the first Zahn novel,
Capt. Pellaeon remembers that when the Executor crashed into the DS - Mark
2, most of the most experienced officers and crewmen in the entire
Imperial Fleet went with it.
<<Place this in the For What Its Worth bin, that circular one over ther,
will ya!>>
Dean L. Ragan "Savin' Lives
drag...@aol.com Cheatin' Death"