TIMOTHY ZAHN IS NOT WORTHY OF WRITING FOR SW
Cecil Leung
Okay, this one is going to get me a lot of flames. I read Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire a little while ago. I was a big fan of SW in the old
days, and I just had to know what all of the big hoopla about this Zahn
trilogy was. Well, it sucked. Not only is Zahn a bad writer, but the story
was structurally NOT Star Wars. I read in an interview with STARLOG where
Zahn defends his books by saying: 'Well, if you only read all three books,
then I'm sure you'll all be satisfied.' I have not read all three books,
I'll admit. I've only read the first one. However, there is no reason for
me to read parts II and III if I hated part I! I mean, if the first SW film
totally sucked, Lucas would not have had the audience he did for Empire Strikes
Back. You have to kick ass with your first installment, or forget it! I
can't believe that Zahn is an award winning author. I just completed a
Masters degree in English Lit., so I guess I'm just used to reading good
authors. My personal opinion is that Mr. Zahn's books came out at a time
when fans were starving for anything related to Star Wars (we were in a big
drought weren't we?). Zahn's books just came at the right time, so even
though his story sucked, people ate it up. Come on, Zahn, Lucas would never
have had little friggin' monkeys blocking the force!
Okay Zahn lovers, flame me if you want, but I'm just being honest.
Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
Parallax
[snip]
> Okay Zahn lovers, flame me if you want, but I'm just being honest.
>
>Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
>Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
>
Go read Anderson. Just go read HIS trilogy. You will probably like it, since
it seems like you didn't like the spirit of Zahn's trilogy...it wasn't the fast
moving action that the movies were. Now that I think about it, please read the
first Anderson book, Jedi Search, and tell me if you like it or not. Personally
I think Zahn is realativly the best writer, but he can't come close to Lucas.
--
========================================================================
Matt Hilliard, Star Wars fan and MiSTie | "Kreg" on SWmud | Formerly:
"Red Three, Red Two, pull in!" -Wedge | "Setrion" on IRC | "Matt H."
========================================================================
SESP...@ysub.ysu.edu
forests killing stormtroopers with rocks, logs and spears....oh wait a
minute....yes he did do that....that's right. Come on dude...get some
imagination with that English degree. We all have read our award winning
books by capable authors, and before I agree with you that Zahn sucks, I'm
going to need a little more than monkeys (by the way, they were lizards)
blocking out the force.
Flame me if it pleases you....
Jim Carsone
sesp...@ysub.ysu.edu
SESP...@ysub.ysu.edu
SESP...@ysub.ysu.edu writes:
>
>In article <D66vI...@torfree.net>
>bc...@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Cecil Leung) writes:
>
>>Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
>
>
>
>forests killing stormtroopers with rocks, logs and spears....oh wait a
>minute....yes he did do that....that's right. Come on dude...get some
>imagination with that English degree. We all have read our award winning
>books by capable authors, and before I agree with you that Zahn sucks, I'm
>going to need a little more than monkeys (by the way, they were lizards)
>blocking out the force.
>
>Flame me if it pleases you....
> Jim Carsone
> sesp...@ysub.ysu.edu
reading what I have posted will probably think that I am flaming Lucas.
This is about as far from the truth as O.J. being innocent. I just hate
when people say, "Lucas would never do this...". Let me inform you that
nobody but Lucas knows what Lucas is going to do. I am a huge Lucas fan
and I just wanted to clear anything up before it begins.
ddddd ooooo tttttttttt aaa kk kk eeeeee
d dd o o tt aa aa kk kk ee
d dd o o tt aaaaaaa kkkk eeeeee
d dd o o tt aa aa kk kk ee
ddddd ooooo tt aa aa kk kk eeeeee
ggggggg ooooo ooooo ddddd cccccc aaa rrrrrrr eeeeee
gg o o o o d dd cc aa aa rr rr ee
gg ggg o o o o d dd cc aaaaaaa rrrrrrr eeeeee
gg gg o o o o d dd cc aa aa rr rr ee
ggggggg ooooo ooooo ddddd cccccc aa aa rr rr eeeeee
oooooo ffffffff
o o ff
o o fffff
o o ff
oooooo ff
y y oooooo uu uu rrrrrrr ssss eeeeee ll fffffff
y y o o uu uu rr rr s ee ll ff
yyy o o uu uu rrrrrrr ssss eeeeee ll fffff
y o o uu uu rr rr s ee ll ff
y oooooo uuuuuu rr rr ssss eeeeee llllllll ff
Captain of the Chimaera
As said by C-3PO sesp...@ysub.ysu.edu
(YA, SO IT'S A LITTLE LONG!)
The Platinum Boy
Cecil Leung <bc...@freenet.toronto.on.ca> wrote:
>
> Okay, this one is going to get me a lot of flames. I read Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire a little while ago. I was a big fan of SW in the old
>days, and I just had to know what all of the big hoopla about this Zahn
>trilogy was. Well, it sucked. Not only is Zahn a bad writer, but the story
>was structurally NOT Star Wars. I read in an interview with STARLOG where
>Zahn defends his books by saying: 'Well, if you only read all three books,
>then I'm sure you'll all be satisfied.' I have not read all three books,
>I'll admit. I've only read the first one. However, there is no reason for
>me to read parts II and III if I hated part I! I mean, if the first SW film
>totally sucked, Lucas would not have had the audience he did for Empire Strikes
>Back. You have to kick ass with your first installment, or forget it! I
>can't believe that Zahn is an award winning author. I just completed a
>Masters degree in English Lit., so I guess I'm just used to reading good
>authors. My personal opinion is that Mr. Zahn's books came out at a time
>when fans were starving for anything related to Star Wars (we were in a big
>drought weren't we?). Zahn's books just came at the right time, so even
>though his story sucked, people ate it up. Come on, Zahn, Lucas would never
>have had little friggin' monkeys blocking the force!
> Okay Zahn lovers, flame me if you want, but I'm just being honest.
>
>Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
Well, I indeed share your opinion that the writing was atrocious in
Zahn's books, but I DID like the story. It just seemed to me that
his books were no more than rough drafts. His prose was terrible,
and his phrase selection was awfully repetitive (you all know what
I'm talking about, or you will in a handful of heartbeats after
letting out a breath you didn't know you were holding). The
"kryptonite" ysalamiri may have been a crutch, but they didn't
particularly bother me.
On the bright side, I enjoyed his villain, I liked the whirlwind
travel schedules, Delta Source intrigued me (though I figured it
out in a dream before the last book came out), I enjoyed the Mara/
Luke dynamic, and I really felt it had the "spirit" of Star Wars.
I've read the series at least three times now (this summer I read
ALL the books again in chronological order, from the silly Lando
stories to Anderson's last), and I still find it entertaining. So
while Timothy Zahn may not know how to get a good grade in an English
class, he still keeps me interested. If only he had decided to look
at his work instead of printing it right off the computer as soon as
it was finished...
As far as writing goes, I put the Han Solo books first. Anyone who
hasn't read those definitely should. But skip the Landos. Man, what
the hell are those about?!?! I also didn't particularly care for
Truce at Bakura or The Crystal Star. IMHO, Kevin Anderson's weren't
that bad, and I thought Courtship of Princess Leia rocked, though I
have absolutely no idea why it had that Star Wars logo on the cover.
This book had as little to do with Star Wars as my senior thesis.
But it was a good read. Oh yeah, Star Wars (the novel) was EXCELLENT,
ESB sucked (straight from the movie-no new info), and RotJ was pretty
good. And Dark Empire was dumb.
-platinum
David Miller
>
>
> [A lot of uncomplimentary things about Zahn]
While I agree that all of the new fiction is generally inferior to the
films, I think that the renewed uproar about Zahn is due to the other bad
material that followed.
Zahn introduces new and interesting characters, he constructs a
well-thought-out plot, and he presents the SW universe in a logical way.
This is more than can be said for any other released fiction (with the
exception of "Ambush", that was a pretty well-constructed story. I just
wish they'd spell-checked it).
A run-through of all the new fiction (that I've read):
Zahn:
The Good......well thought out; new characters; good villians. It
also takes the "Overall SW story development" in a logical direction.
Mara Jade 8-)
The Bad.......some characterization problems with Han;
ysalamiri-as-plot-device.
Dark Empire:
The Good......better characterization of Han; epic "rebels fighting
against hopeless odds" feeling; good Luke plot; Jedi spiritual fighting.
The Bad.......recycled villians; outrageous dialogue; poor flow from
Zahn trilogy (no outright contradictions, but ...Luke suddenly a Jedi
Master? Lando back in the military? Wedge promoted? [not bad, just not
what I would expect from Zahn's version of Wedge] Coruscant captured
AFTER Thrawn defeated? Omnipotent, vastly destructive Force storms? Get
the idea?)
Dark Empire II:
The Good:
The Bad: Everything. Nuff said.
Anderson Trilogy:
The Good: Luke finally gets his ass in gear and trains some more jedi.
The Bad: everything else.
"Ambush at Corellia":
The Good: Well-constructed; nothing that made me want to throw up;
good "Overall SW saga development" (I'll leave out spoilers); new
characters; no recycled villians; Mara Jade; characterization.
The Bad: ehh......proofreading 8-)
"Truce at Bakura":
Boring and unrememberable. Although if you're desperate, it's worlds
better than Anderson.
Haven't read any of the others, mostly because of bad word of mouth.
Dave....who's gonna get midieval on your ass! (More Pulp sigs to come!)
Mangum
>
>: Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
>: Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
>
You're also confusing entertainment with Lit. None of the books, or for
that matter the movies, were meant to be serious literature. They are
an easy read, simple plotlines and just fun. If you want to talk
corruption, talk 'Crystal Star' and parts of 'Courtship'.
--
Jeanne Mangum.......MANGUM@ix.netcom.com.....Aunt...@aol.com
The door to your cage is open.
All you have to do is walk out....if you dare ...George Lucas
Andrei Zaitsev
: Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
Andrew
Tigger
smooth, flowing, the tactics were ingenious, etc.
He may have taken liberties making up races and cloaking devices and
ylesmar or whatever, but the books were great, IMHO.
--
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him...I heard a great voice saying "Go, pour out the wrath of God upon the earth"...and I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven!
Andrei Zaitsev
: In <3lcj9o$1...@crl.crl.com> dau...@crl.com (Andrei Zaitsev) writes:
: >: Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
: >: Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
: an easy read, simple plotlines and just fun. If you want to talk
: corruption, talk 'Crystal Star' and parts of 'Courtship'.
Hey, be careful with quoting. I didn't say any of that crap, I was defending
Zahn :)
Andrew
JWooten
~ I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
~ into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
~ made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
~ the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
~ 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
~ 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
~ 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
~ Andrew
I get the feeling you like Zahn better than Lucas......Let's look at what
you said Lucas 'threw into the movies,' etc.
~ 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
What the hell does this mean? When do the movies *ever* address this in
*any* way, no matter how small? If you're talking about how Yoda stayed
hidden, what importance did that really have in the movie? There is
really no reason to explain it. They didn't know Yoda even existed until
the very end, so it's not hard to be hidden if no one is looking for
you...The Dark side sheilding is a pretty weak explanation anyway. If
that's how one would stay hidden, how did Kenobi remain hidden? My guess
is, everyone thought they (the Jedi) were dead and/or scattered, remember
Tarkin's quote to Vader? There was essentially little to worry about,
because, if any *were* alive, they were to scattered and unorganized to
mount any serious resistance.
~ 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
Yet again, you're confusing Zahn's creation as something Lucas 'left
out.' The Clone Wars were only mentioned in passing, we don't even know
if 'cloning' has anything to do with them. The 'madness' was a convenient
plot device to create an alternate *yawn* Luke and an 'evil Jedi Master.'
~ 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
When did Lucas ever say the Empire lost at *this* battle? I think
everyone just conveniently assumed that, with the final defeat of the key
figures, the war would be over. How interesting would the movie have been
if we would have seen, to the letter, every mop up mission and skirmish
post-Endor? I believe Endor was the beginning of the end, and I don't
think the movie contradicts that at all. If you're talking about how the
Empire lost post-ROTJ, that's really not Lucas's fault is it? According
to the 1980 Time article (just recently reposted), the final three parts
are about the establishment of the New Republic. Maybe Lucas has decided
to leave this to the current battery of authors, but with all the recent
noise about Hamill, I think this idea could very well end up being false.
I liked Zahn's stuff, but your arguments are *way* off base. Some of the
stuff you accuse Lucas of leaving out are strictly Zahn's creation. I'm
not saying it's good or bad, but you can hardly criticize Lucas for not
putting in or disagreeing with another's ideas. Lucas *is* Star Wars's
creator, after all. He had a basic outline of all *nine* parts before
Zahn learned to spell 'sardonically.' On another point, does Lucas have
to explain *everything*? We did come in at the middle of the story. I
liked the mystery and vagueness of what happened before. I don't think
the Star Wars saga was ever meant to be more than the fairy tale Lucas
wanted. A little grayness here, a little there. This contributes to the
feel of SW as some type of mythological epic.
Just my nickel,
John
--
"People must think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--Calvin
woot...@osu.edu
Joshua E. Rowr
: : Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
: : Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
: I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
: into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
: made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
: the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
: 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
: 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
: 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
: Andrew
These were all intresting, but as a story, it failed for me. None of the
charaters rang true, especially Han and Lando. They seemed... off. He
had a lot of good ideas (Thrawn, more details of force use, ect.) but a
lot of silly ones (yasmrai wern't so bad, but Wookiee with a SPEECH
IMPEDAMENT able to TALK??? Please.)
--
Quinn the Eskimo
"You know, there are some people that just don't love their fellow human
beings, and I HATE people like that."
Tom Lehrer
Geoff Emerson
> "Truce at Bakura":
> Boring and unrememberable. Although if you're desperate, it's worlds
> better than Anderson.
>
suck. The general story was OK, but I was about to puke at all of Luke's
schoolgirl thoughts. Equally distressing was Anderson's portrayal of Luke
as a weak leader with no foresight. (Let's see... There's only one
starship on this planet, it's reletively unprotected, and a student who
is showing strong dark-side tendancies just got very upset and walked out
on dinner. Hmmm... I think I'll go to bed.)
FROG CROAKED FOR OUR SINS...
> Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
> Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
Well, I wouldn't put it down as much as you do, but I will say this:
The idea that Ben Kenobi cannot appear to Luke anymore is STUPID!!!!
Parallax
>
>In article <3lcj9o$1...@crl.crl.com>, dau...@crl.com (Andrei Zaitsev) wrote:
>
>
>~ I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
>~ into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
>~ made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
>~ the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
>~ 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
>~ 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
>~ 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
>~ Andrew
[snip]
>~ 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
>
>When did Lucas ever say the Empire lost at *this* battle?
I believe he said this when the Rebels had that big party on Endor with
no sign of Imperial interferance.
[snip]
>He had a basic outline of all *nine* parts before
>Zahn learned to spell 'sardonically.'
ROTFL!!!
[rest snipped]
>Just my nickel,
>John
>
>--
>
>"People must think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard
it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--Calvin
>
> woot...@osu.edu
>
My thoughts (I'm too financially challenged to give some change),
Evan Reynolds
|>
|> ~ 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
|>
|> *any* way, no matter how small? If you're talking about how Yoda stayed
|> hidden, what importance did that really have in the movie? There is
|> really no reason to explain it. They didn't know Yoda even existed until
|> the very end, so it's not hard to be hidden if no one is looking for
|> you...The Dark side sheilding is a pretty weak explanation anyway. If
|> that's how one would stay hidden, how did Kenobi remain hidden? My guess
|> is, everyone thought they (the Jedi) were dead and/or scattered, remember
|> Tarkin's quote to Vader? There was essentially little to worry about,
|> because, if any *were* alive, they were to scattered and unorganized to
|> mount any serious resistance.
|>
It's a good point about Kenobi, but he had to hide SOMEWHERE while
the Empire was purging Jedi. And there is NO WAY Vader would
just forget about him - he's the one who put Vader in permanent
Life-Support. So he must have had some very clever spot. Vader
seems exactly the type to hound Kenobi unless he had no leads or
believed Kenobi was dead.
|> 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
|>
|> When did Lucas ever say the Empire lost at *this* battle? I think
|> everyone just conveniently assumed that, with the final defeat of the key
|> figures, the war would be over. How interesting would the movie have been
I don't think the original poster was referring to
the Empire losing the war, just the one battle at Endor. The Rebels
must have won that battle, because losing forces rarely hold celebrations
on the territory they lost. And as for the rebel fleet vs. the Empire
fleet, I quote Admiral Ackbar : "We won't last long against those
Star Destroyers." Yet, since they stayed on Endor, they must have driven
them off at least. And how they managed that really does need
explanation.
=========================================================================
-Evan erey...@cs.utk.edu
WWW: http://www.cs.utk.edu:80/~ereynold/
Two peanuts crossed the street and one was assaulted.
The other was turned into peanut butter, making it assault and buttery.
Then the cops came and everything was nuts.
Jeffrey A Bowers
really significant--I won't reveal how Han gets killed --OOPS! :) )
In article <3lch15$e...@nexus.uiowa.edu> ddmi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (David Miller) writes:
>A run-through of all the new fiction (that I've read):
>
>Zahn:
> The Good......well thought out; new characters; good villians. It
>also takes the "Overall SW story development" in a logical direction.
>Mara Jade 8-)
> The Bad.......some characterization problems with Han;
>ysalamiri-as-plot-device.
>
>Dark Empire:
> The Good......better characterization of Han; epic "rebels fighting
>against hopeless odds" feeling; good Luke plot; Jedi spiritual fighting.
> The Bad.......recycled villians; outrageous dialogue; poor flow from
>Zahn trilogy (no outright contradictions, but ...Luke suddenly a Jedi
>Master? Lando back in the military? Wedge promoted? [not bad, just not
>what I would expect from Zahn's version of Wedge] Coruscant captured
>AFTER Thrawn defeated? Omnipotent, vastly destructive Force storms? Get
>the idea?)
>
>Dark Empire II:
> The Good:
> The Bad: Everything. Nuff said.
Has anybody else been really disappointed with the art of Dark Empire and
Dark Empire II? The pencil and ink work is fine, but the coloring is awful,
in my opinion. There are big pictures of space battles where _everything_
is just splashed over indiscriminantly with blues and greens. The artist
seems to go overboard with that whole "cinematic effect" with long obscuring
shadows and no color detail--I've never seen green hair or green skin, but
there's plenty of it in these comics. Not to mention that the story itself
is just awful--very contrived and very ridiculous.
Now the Tales of the Jedi Series is a different matter. I am very impressed
by the art in this series, especially the archaic look of the ships and the
clothing and the weapons that really makes it feel like something out of the
old days of the Republic. I really like the story as well--it's refreshing
to read a Star Wars story that doesn't deal with Luke, Han, and all the
other regulars. I mean, I like Han and Luke and the others, but there is so
much more that can be written about in the Star Wars universe.
>
>Anderson Trilogy:
> The Good: Luke finally gets his ass in gear and trains some more jedi.
> The Bad: everything else.
The main thing that I didn't like about the Anderson trilogy was the
preponderance of super-gizmos like the Sun Crusher. I'm getting tired of
plots that center around the appearance of ultra-high-tech weaponry:
World Devastators and Ultra-huge-whammo-gigantic Star Destroyers in
Dark Empire, the Sun Crusher in the Anderson Trilogy, and now the
Mega-Interdictor in Ambush at Corellia (I groaned when those stupid kids
discovered that cone-shaped alien thing. Oh boy, another mysterious
high-tech gizmo).
>"Ambush at Corellia":
> The Good: Well-constructed; nothing that made me want to throw up;
>good "Overall SW saga development" (I'll leave out spoilers); new
>characters; no recycled villians; Mara Jade; characterization.
> The Bad: ehh......proofreading 8-)
>
Yes, overall I was very impressed by Ambush at Corellia. Not much really
happened in the book, but it was obvious that things are going to move
pretty quickly in the books to follow.
>"Truce at Bakura":
> Boring and unrememberable. Although if you're desperate, it's worlds
>better than Anderson.
>
Actually, I rather liked Truce at Bakura. It's one of the only new books
that actually doesn't portray Luke as a limp-wristed, ineffectual milktoast.
And the business with Gaerial was interesting also. Luke really missed an
opportunity there. He just needs a chick, and then he'll be cool: with a babe
on one arm, and a lightsaber in the other, there's nothing he couldn't handle.
:).
>Haven't read any of the others, mostly because of bad word of mouth.
>
I liked _The Courtship of Princess Leia_, even though it got a really bad
rap on this newsgroup. The story is very innovative, and I think the
characterization is done well. Buy the paperback when it comes out, I think
you'll enjoy it.
I really disliked _The Crystal Star_, as did just about everybody I've spoken
to about it. The plot is ridiculous, the characterization is awful, and I'm
totally sick of those three little brats (I really NOT looking forward to
_Children of the Jedi_. A whole book about those stupid kids). And Luke is
just awful in this book. He walks around saying "Gosh, this is wierd,
there's a disturbance in the force and it's messing with my brain", and then he
goes psycho a couple of times and almost kills himself, and each time has to
rely on everybody else to snap him out of it. Oooh, what a powerful Jedi
Master, cool and in control. Jeez.
Well, that's what I think. Any opinions?
--Jeff Bowers
jbo...@mit.edu
Grickle
Wars books? Read them, then tell me which suck.
So who IS qualified to write SW books? I liked Zahn. Though Wingrove
(author of the Chung Kuo series) would write a masterpiece of a Star Wars
book.
Philip Giunta
First off, I really do not think that anyone yet, including Tim Zahn has
really captured the characters of Star Wars all that well. Some worse than
others but no oneyet has got it right.
Also, I really am not fond of any worms that are able to block the Force.
These ysalmiri (or whatever they were, it has been a few years since I finished
Zahn's trilogy), were a bunch of crap. The Force was supposed to be all
powerful. Nothing could stop it. That's the way Lucas first envisioned it
and i cannot see how he could have approved of that crap unless he just saw
$$$$ with a new novel series.
So all in all, it's not just Zahn but all the SW novelist have been pretty bad
thus far. I have some faith though in Roger Allen MacBride. But the whole
Lando searching for a rich wife is questionable... Bye for now!
Chewy
On 29 Mar 1995, Andrei Zaitsev wrote:
> : Star Wars is too good a trilogy to be corrupted by half-ass crap like
> : Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
>
> I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
> into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
> made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
> the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
> 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
> 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
> 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
> Andrew
>
>
I agree 100%! I loved Zahn's books and wished that he would write more.
The author that makes me sick is Tyers and that crap that she wrote. I
have never before put a Star Wars book down before I completed it to read
another book. I actually read one of my text books rather than that
piece of rubbish.
Chewy
Robert Wieser
writes:
I realy liked the idea of Lando trying to find a wife. After all its been
something like 14 years since the battle of Endor. He can't go on being a
smugler and gambling forever. And all the other characters have started settling
down and raising kids; Han and Leia have the kids and leia's galaxy to run,
Lukes become a teacher, Mon Mothmas retired, Wedge fell in love. Maybe they
should start working more with the younger characters Mara, the twins and
Aniken, and of course luke's students. just a thought... Bye
JWooten
Reynolds) wrote:
~ I don't think the original poster was referring to
~ the Empire losing the war, just the one battle at Endor. The Rebels
~ must have won that battle, because losing forces rarely hold celebrations
~ on the territory they lost. And as for the rebel fleet vs. the Empire
~ fleet, I quote Admiral Ackbar : "We won't last long against those
~ Star Destroyers." Yet, since they stayed on Endor, they must have driven
~ them off at least. And how they managed that really does need
~ explanation.
I'll give in on this, the party does imply rebel victory, no doubt. But
we really don't know how long afterward it takes place and we don't really
know that the space battle is over, we can assume, but for all we know,
there is still some mopping up and chasing them out of the system. I
guess I did misread a bit, but maybe this is the explanation of the
rebel's victory at Endor: Ackbar prefaced your quote by mentioning the
*close range* that Lando was recommending, we really have no idea whether
or not the Calamari ships could hold their own at a further distance, but
it is implied (why else take them along if they couldn't hold up against
Destroyers?). When the DS2 was destroyed, they could have pulled back and
fought a normal battle. Or maybe the technique of fighting them head on
had a more successful result than they could've dreamed, sending the fleet
into a state of disarray. We see a few Destroyers go up in flames, the
flagship *and* the Death Star are destroyed, and they were presumably the
coordinators of the Fleet. Remember the Fleet was in a defensive posture
as well, put there by Lando's decision to attack. They probably weren't
really used to this kind of engagement, and were thus *seriously*
disadvantaged. This is the largest offensive we *ever* see the rebels
engage in, so it seems plausible that the remaining Destroyers' commanders
were confused and forced to flee or simply overwhelmed. It must have been
quite a blow to morale to know that the Emperor, Vader and the Executor
were destroyed and to an extent, knowing that the huge ground force had
been somehow undermined. I know the movie doesn't explain all this, but
doesn't this seem a little more realistic than simply saying the Emperor
'controlled' the minds of the Imperial Commanders? Sorry, but that theory
has *always* seemed really weak to me. If the Emperor was so damn
all-powerful, why not just overtake Luke's mind. Or if Luke was 'too
strong,' why not take control of the rebel commender's mind. It is just
too simplistic. Just my opinion....
...and I still *did* enjoy the books...just certain parts bothered me...
STACEY WAGNER
>From: Kerman Geoffrey Bryan <ker...@server.uwindsor.ca>
>Subject: Re: TIMOTHY ZAHN IS NOT WORTHY OF WRITING FOR SW
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 00:44:08 GMT
>On 30 Mar 1995, Robert Wieser wrote:
>> Date: 30 MAR 1995 20:37:35 GMT
>> From: Robert Wieser <WIE...@ix.netcom.com>
>> Newgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars
>> Subject: Re: TIMOTHY ZAHN IS NOT WORTHY OF WRITING FOR SW
> Just a thought, but does anyone out there agree that Bantam
>should not have started selling these novels? I mean, we all have been
>innundated with these new characters, planets etc., so we pretty much
>consider these books canon, right? So if Lucas decides to do
>movies/novels that follow ROTJ, what happens to these books by Zahn and
>others?
> Personally, I think the quality of the novels has gone down hill
>since Zahn. Anyone else?
I agree with you! I like Zahn's books, but feel the other books don't have
the same flare. It's as if the other author's are guessing at how to write
SW. I sometimes wonder how Lucas picks the SW authors. But in all fairness,
no matter who writes the next SW book (or series) some people will love it,
and some will hate it.
Any thoughts?
Stacey
Kerman Geoffrey Bryan
karl mamer
> I don't. Zahn was the one who brought realism and sophistication
> into SW universe. Aside from creating new heroes and villains, he also
> made a good effort to explain some stuff that Lucas just threw into
> the movies, without thinking much about it, such as:
> 1) How presence of dark side can shield a Jedi from detection
> 2) Details of cloning and reasons for clone madness
> 3) Reason, why Empire has lost battle of Endor after DS destruction
He might have done something for the tech, although I'd dispute that
as well, he did little for characterization or properly pacing the
story. We're lead all over the place like a dog on a leash. Little
time is spent on atmosphere. Herbert did more to establish atmosphere
in four pages of DUNE than Zahn or Anderson did in 6 books...
--
Grasp-O-Reality Meter
Basically Dangerously
Clueless Normal Alert
|---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+|
|=========================== |
|---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+|
"What about that thing you keep in the freezer? You call that normal?"
karl mamer
> In <3lcj9o$1...@crl.crl.com> dau...@crl.com (Andrei Zaitsev) writes:
>
> >
> >: Heir to the Empire. Please, does anyone share my opinion?
> >
>
> that matter the movies, were meant to be serious literature. They are
> an easy read, simple plotlines and just fun. If you want to talk
> corruption, talk 'Crystal Star' and parts of 'Courtship'.
Uh, I'd debate you on the movies. What made the movies universal
blockbusters is that they mined the depths of our literary
culture, our legends, and our archetypes. SW was brilliant. Yes,
there's some silly stuff in SW. Like teddy bears bashing Storm
Troopers with spears, although there's some silly stuff in The
Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Alice in Wonderland, et al.
The reason Zahn and Anderson fail is because they simply ignore
the art of good story telling.
David Miller
>I agree with the bit about the Emperor's mind control being a lousy
explanation,
>
Okay, I see Zahn get blamed for the theory that the Empire lost at Endor
because the Emperor's "driving, evil will" failed. When I first read it,
I was immediately reminded of Sauron, from "The Lord of the Rings." But
what I did NOT realize until some time later was that the "Emperor's
Will" theory was not Zahn speculation. It's right out of the ROTJ
novellization.[I finally had the chance to read all three novellizations.
I recommend them.....some GREAT insights into the characters, and
they're even canon, or at least semo-canon.] I quote "The Emperor was
dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to
the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this
nondirected-this was simply where it lead. Confusion. Desperation.
Damp fear." So Zahn was just following up on something he'd read in a
pretty reliable source.
So if the Emperor was so powerful, why not just control Luke or the Rebel
commander's mind? Because reinforcing the convictions, the coordination,
and the will of troops who are fighting your cause willingly is a lot
different than completely restructuring a mind that is completely opposed
to you. Rebels (especially Luke), would resist....but the Imperials
probably didn't even realize that Palpatine was doing it.
Dave....the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of
his 4-part singing quartet in high school.
[The WildWinds Traveler]
think Zahn did an admirable job of doing just what we all really wanted
him to, give us a little bit more of the SW story until the new movies
come out. As far as your complaints about the charactes and the force
blockers...well, the characters were very well done, I will even go so
far to say Thrawn was much more interesting than any imperial character
short of Vader, and perhaps more so than even Vader (Flame Shield On),
kind of an evil Sherlock Holmes. Think about it, a villian with a brain....
The Ysalmari (sp -2) were a plot device to limit the force so
that Luke wouldn't blow the whole story by winning the war all by
himself. It doesn't matter if they were "real" or not according to your
perception of what the Universe is like, they served a real literary
purpose of making the stories more exciting. Lucas would have done the
same thing.
All in all I agree that the quality of the writing has gone down
since Zahn, some of it very bad (ahem, Crystal Star, Jedi Search,
Courtship), some of it acceptible to good (Ambush has potential).
However, I must make the point that Zahn, with his new characters even,
managed to maintain the "spirit" of Star Wars as far as I'm concerned.
The story moved fast in a Lucaslike style, was exciting, had very
interesting settings and races (The Nogri sure beat the hell out of the
Ewoks) and best of all, they had Wedge! So cop a chill and eagerly await
Zahns last SW books like the rest of us really are in our heart of
hearts. Even if Lucas shoots it down, it was still quite a good ride.
Zahn, if you read these things, why not put Kyle Katarn in your
new novel? I'd like to see him meet Mara Jade. 8)
>>>>>>>Nerfherder
.
Who was it who said "Everyones a critic?"
--Golyath
Collin Yeoh
initially. Though after Anderson, I began to look favourably toward Zahn too...
Basically my biggest problem with Zahn is that he's *too* realistic. He delves
merrily into technobabble, which was *never* a part of SW. Note how Luke
escapes the Chimaera's tractor beam in HttE. All he does is get Artoo to
fiddle around with a proton torpedo, and by some engineering-babble-gizmo-
trick manages to get away. *What* is this? There are further examples of how
Zahn lets his plot rely too heavily on technical stuff, but this is the most
glaring one. The realism argument doesn't apply; Zahn could've made SW more
realistic without making it *confusing*.
What's also confusing is his plot without the technical stuff. It's too
*complicated*. SW had plenty of depth, but you could always keep track of the
story, you'd never have trouble remembering the subplots or what's happening
to the other characters elsewhere. It was something like Tolkien, where
references to previously-mentioned information could easily be connected. Not
so Zahn. What with Mara and Karrde, Luke and Mara, Mara and the Emperor,
Ackbar, Fey'lya, Thrawn and C'baoth, C'baoth and Luke, Luke and Leia, Leia and
Han.....it just becomes too much to keep track of. SW was never like this.
Neither do I like his style. Too dry, too antiseptic. The action scenes don't
come *alive*, the screenplay of the story doesn't come into your mind. At
least not mine.
But in the end, I guess I wouldn't mind Zahn writing more SW again. Hell, if
the rest of the new books suck, I'd probably be praying for it.
Evan Reynolds
I agree with the bit about the Emperor's mind control being a lousy explanation,
but for a different reason. Controlled or not, the Empire still had a
huge fleet - and even un-mind-controlled, that fleet should have done
a lot of damage. As for the commanders not being used to large
engagements, neither were the rebels - they usually tried to
avoid that sort of thing. The imperials probably had more experience
at it. Of course, a lot of Rebel officers were former imperials, so
that would probably even out.
I actually have a feeling that this is a thing we are just not
supposed to question... ;)
Have fun!
=========================================================================
Two peanuts crossed the street and one was assaulted.
The other was turned into peanut butter, making it assault and buttery.
Then the cops came and everything was nuts.
|>
karl mamer
> Who was it who said "Everyones a critic?"
It was you, I believe. Brilliant observation...
Ian T Robinson
The Platinum Boy <plat...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>In article <D66vI...@torfree.net>,
>Cecil Leung <bc...@freenet.toronto.on.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Okay, this one is going to get me a lot of flames. I read Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire a little while ago. I was a big fan of SW in the old
>>days, and I just had to know what all of the big hoopla about this Zahn
>>trilogy was. Well, it sucked. Not only is Zahn a bad writer, but the story
Are you crazy? Zahn's novels are the best Star Wars books written so far.
Anderson's trilogy is absolutely the worst thing I've ever read.
Zahn should write more Star Wars related stories, but that's just my
opinion.
Christopher A. Lisy
: movies/novels that follow ROTJ, what happens to these books by Zahn and
: others?
Good question. I would say that most people on the group here do not
consider all the new books and comics canon. Just MHO, of course. When
Lucas gets around to working on the trilogy that takes place after ROTJ,
he may or may not follow what these other writers have written. It's his
decision all the way. If he doesn't, I guess they could be considered
sort of an alternate timeline kinda thing, sorta like the Elseworlds
series that DC Comics puts out, or the What If... series Marvel Comics
publishes.
--
Chris
cl...@ashland.edu or
gr...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Help! My .sig file was arrested and thrown in jail. Bail set at
$50,000. Please send money to help get it out.
Paula Jantunen
Maybe no one... HEYHEYHEY now this is only my humble opinion. I happen to
hate movie novelizations and sequels - especially if they're written by
someone else than the one who created the original thing. But it's
everyones own business what he thinks and likes, of course.
Peace&love! Flayar
--
** Paula*Jantunen * jant...@messi.uku.fi * University*of*Kuopio * Finland **
"Never mind how! You're not the only one here with hidden talents!"-Gentlemen
Prefer Blondes "In case of doubt, make it sound convincing."-Murphy ~~~~~~~~~
***********************TAMA*TYTTO*EI*LIEKEISTA*PIITTAA***********************
Gillian E Runcie CS91
Timothy Zahn wrote the best Star Wars novels I have yet
to see - I nearly failed two of my second year exams because
Dark Force Rising was released at the start of revision week,
and I just couldn't put it down. I have to admit that The
Last Command was slightly disappointing, and a bit confusing,
but compared to Anderson's Trilogy, they are all still an
absolute work of art. And as for the Crystal Star...
I have read a couple of Vonda McIntyres Star Trek novels -
one called the Entropy Effect was Ok, while her adaption of
Star Trek 4 was piss poor. So, i went into reading the
Crystal Star with a 50 / 50 expectation, and was sorely
disappointed. I can't understand how *anybody* can have such
little understanding of the characters they are writing about.
I get sick to death of authors who see Luke as some kind of
mystic who spends his time meditating and staring off into
space - that's exactly what McIntyre did. Her book was total
bullshit, IMHO.
So far, I think the Corellian trilogy looks very promising -
for me, it has the 'keep you up all night until you finish it,
and severly endanger your final year exams in the process' quality.
Just as well the second part is coming out after my finals ;-)
Just my 2 groats worth.
Sielah
Saint Erroneous
>
> I have to agree with the previous poster on this matter.
>
> Timothy Zahn wrote the best Star Wars novels I have yet
> to see - I nearly failed two of my second year exams because
> Dark Force Rising was released at the start of revision week,
> and I just couldn't put it down. I have to admit that The
> Last Command was slightly disappointing, and a bit confusing,
> but compared to Anderson's Trilogy, they are all still an
> absolute work of art. And as for the Crystal Star...
Hmmm... I've _just_ finished reading all three of the Zahn books
in one go. I enjoyed them. They were fun. Nice space combat
scenes, interesting extrapolation of the events
post-Endor, but good sci-fi?
Not on Zahn's nelly.
The writing is annoying. It did, admittedly, take until page 59
until someone said "I've got a bad feeling about this" and page 60
for C3PO to say "We're doomed..." The number of mynock references
(eg - "faster than a mynock with a burnt tail" etc.) was absurd
and irritating.
There are _huge_ plot holes. Like how the dog-like creatures who
hunt by the Force are going to hunt by the Force in the middle
of a forest where the Force is specifically _excluded_? How could
they react to Luck and Mara when all Force-based abilities where
non-functional?
Unless, of course, you're going to say that the ability to sense
the ability to use the Force isn't itself a Force ability.
*sigh*
There are several appalling attempts at pseudo-science. The
cloaking system is one of them. Nothing gets in, and nothing
gets out of a cloak, so how come they can _fire_ out of it?
A wanted to like the trilogyu, I really did, and I enjoyed
reading them, but if it wasn't for the SW connection they'd be
accepted as prime examples of bad writing.
I've been reading too much Iain M Banks. I expect too much from
SF authors.
-michael (mainly) Erroneous