Storm Troopers vs.Sardaukar (missed the original here's my $.02)
Dusty Miller
The answer to the question of who would defeat who between a legion of ST and a legion of Sardaukar is simple. Sardaukar. here's why....
A) A legion of Sardaukar is larger than a legion of ST. (A legion of Sardaukar is roughly a million men).
B)from the description given of a Sardaukar in Dune, they are a living weapon in and amongst their person is concealed literrally hundreds of weapons, including strands of shigawire which can cut through armor like warm butter.
c)The ST were overrun by a bunch of furry little critters with primitive weapons, whereas the Sardaukar(SD) have weapons such as lasguns, with ranges far superior to blasters. (read the entire Dune series).
D)ST are continually getting their asses whammied by a bunch of under-equipped rebels. SD are equipped by an entire empire!
E)Even if the SD had to take a break from yawning to call in reinforcements they would arrive quicker as folding space is instantaneous travel. Hyperspace is not!
In essence the scenario would likely boil down to:
SD commander reporting to SD Bashar: We have them Sir, all dead or dying. One casualty, a broken pinky finger from a hand chop through a Storm Trooper helmet.
Bashar: Good work! Long live Emperor Shaddam IV!
Well that's what I have to say. Looking forward to rebuttal (Or agreement if you want :) )
--
Dusty Miller
AKA Network God
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Simon H. Lee
>Bashar: Good work! Long live Emperor Shaddam IV!
>Well that's what I have to say. Looking forward to rebuttal (Or agreement if
>you want :) )
I think we enjoy this "Fight of the Week" thing too much.
But anyway, well, I'd say that if you took the average Sardaukar and
faced him with an average stormtrooper, if one of them didn't just shoot the
other one, the Sardie would win because his armor (or lack thereof) makes
him more agile.
Now, a Sardie vs. a Royal Guard...
Still, if the Fremen beat the Sardaukar with just knives and stuff
(ignoring David Lynch's earnest but very wacko movie effort), what does that
say about them?
And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
Next week: Ewoks vs. The Red Shirts!
-------------------------ALL DONE! BYE BYE!------------------------
| __ |
| / \ * |
| \__ ___ __ __ "Ah, boring conversation anyway." |
| \ | | | | / \ | \ --Han Solo |
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| |
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Fungi-Boy
>>Bashar: Good work! Long live Emperor Shaddam IV!
>>Well that's what I have to say. Looking forward to rebuttal (Or agreement if
>>you want :) )
> I think we enjoy this "Fight of the Week" thing too much.
> But anyway, well, I'd say that if you took the average Sardaukar and
>faced him with an average stormtrooper, if one of them didn't just shoot the
>other one, the Sardie would win because his armor (or lack thereof) makes
>him more agile.
> Now, a Sardie vs. a Royal Guard...
> Still, if the Fremen beat the Sardaukar with just knives and stuff
>(ignoring David Lynch's earnest but very wacko movie effort), what does that
>say about them?
I think it says that the Fremen are the biggest HTH badasses anyone's ever
met in humanoid form. Now if you want to get _wierd_, bring in the Tyranid
forces from Warhammer 40,000 and let some Stormtroopers try to duke it
out with a few Genestealers (four-armed, bio-engineered, they have a thing
for ripping through several inches of armour at a time.) And now back to your
regularly scheduled insanity.
> And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
> Next week: Ewoks vs. The Red Shirts!
> -------------------------ALL DONE! BYE BYE!------------------------
>| __ |
>| / \ * |
>| \__ ___ __ __ "Ah, boring conversation anyway." |
>| \ | | | | / \ | \ --Han Solo |
>| \__/ | | | | \__/ | | |
>| |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
=============================================================================
|"I'm not even supposed to _BE_ here today!!!!!"-Dante |
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=============================================================================
john william mills
: >Bashar: Good work! Long live Emperor Shaddam IV!
: >Well that's what I have to say. Looking forward to rebuttal (Or agreement if
: >you want :) )
: I think we enjoy this "Fight of the Week" thing too much.
: But anyway, well, I'd say that if you took the average Sardaukar and
: faced him with an average stormtrooper, if one of them didn't just shoot the
: other one, the Sardie would win because his armor (or lack thereof) makes
: him more agile.
: Now, a Sardie vs. a Royal Guard...
: Still, if the Fremen beat the Sardaukar with just knives and stuff
: (ignoring David Lynch's earnest but very wacko movie effort), what does that
: say about them?
: And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
I have. And the Fremen beat the Sardaukar because they were even more
kick-ass motherf*ckers. The Fremen were the be-all and end-all of
fighters (in the first book, which is the only one i have read thus far.)
: Next week: Ewoks vs. The Red Shirts!
Rickster
Lee) wrote:
** And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
Aye! All six books (in a month). Can't wait to read them again. Just
caught the 3 1/2 hr
version of the movie. Different beginning with a man narrating (who?) and
drawings
and pictures in place of space scenes. Little more history told. Lots more
scenes added.
All in All. 10 1/2. Definatly one of the best series, movies and authors.
Although I didn't care
much for the Green Brain (?) or The Jesus Incident or Lazarus Effect
series (yawn!). Comments?
__________________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________________
Father Morpheus
Well I have read the first two of the series. I loved them. I actually
wish that there was an RPG for Dune. But alas I have only heard vage
storeis about them.
I still think that the Sardaukar can kick anyones butt in the SW realm.
Just because the freman can kill them does not mean that anyone in SW
can. I would think of them as Dark Troopers, well the living type. With
out the armor, them have the same type of Strengh and Armor and there
weapons are deadly.
Sincerely,
Day Jobs: Cassana the Tremere Night Jobs: ERAU EE student
Father Morpheus
and 'net surfer
For Life: SIGMA TAU GAMMA brother. e-mail:buc...@pr.erau.edu
and one tired puppy.
"Only the dumb die young, the rest of us like it that way."
LIM KENNETH IGNATIUS
: OK here goes-
: E)Even if the SD had to take a break from yawning to call in reinforcements
they would arrive quicker as folding space is instantaneous travel.
Hyperspace is not!
Even so, they would need landers of some kind to get planetside from the
Guild Heighliners. Just hope not to run into TIE Int. squadrons on the
way in. But...
More plus points: The sacrificial trooper or trap vehicle with a Holtzmann
shield that gets hit by a lasbeam. Boom, fusion explosion.
Ornithopters for fast ingress and evac. AT-ATs are armoured but slow.
AT-STs are fast but pathetic.
Even when the guns are empty, they just keep going and going- trained in
blade combat. Great for disembowelling an officer or two.
Ken Lim
Muad 'Dib
: In article <shl10.20...@cornell.edu>, sh...@cornell.edu (Simon H.
: Lee) wrote:
: ** And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
: Aye! All six books (in a month). Can't wait to read them again. Just
: caught the 3 1/2 hr
: version of the movie. Different beginning with a man narrating (who?) and
: drawings
: and pictures in place of space scenes. Little more history told. Lots more
: scenes added.
: All in All. 10 1/2. Definatly one of the best series, movies and authors.
: Although I didn't care
: much for the Green Brain (?) or The Jesus Incident or Lazarus Effect
: series (yawn!). Comments?
as you might have guessed by the sig and name...loved the books....dune ties
with SW for the best thought out and ejoyable fiction round!!!!!!!!
Muad 'Dib
ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| MUAD 'DIB, SAVIOUR OF THE FREMEN, LAST OF THE ATREDIES LINE. |
| lbo...@metz.une.edu.au Science Student, The Future of Australia |
| "Fantasy is like an eyball, you can look, but you can't squeeze. |
| Anon. |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Jones
To say nothing of their bodyshields. And the convention that precludes
the use of atomics would be cast aside if the empire started using
superweapons that were comparable, like the DS superlaser, or any form
of radiation weaponery, if I recall the principal of that convention
correctly.
Timothy Jones
On 24 Apr 1995, Muad 'Dib wrote:
> Rickster (ri...@spacetec.com) wrote:
> : In article <shl10.20...@cornell.edu>, sh...@cornell.edu (Simon H.
> : Lee) wrote:
>
> : ** And how many of us on the newsgroup have read Dune?
I myself have read the first three books. And really, all one needs is
to have seen the film (preferably *NOT* the cruddy TV version), to
understand enough to comment.
> : Aye! All six books (in a month). Can't wait to read them again. Just
> : caught the 3 1/2 hr
> : version of the movie. Different beginning with a man narrating (who?) and
> : drawings
> : and pictures in place of space scenes. Little more history told. Lots more
> : scenes added.
And scenes taken out, changed, and in general wossified. Why do they
think we're so stupid, that they have to have the emperor say *Duke*
Atredies -- every damn time! -- and not house Atredies, like we're
not gonna' know what he's refering to?! Annoying! And why -- for
the love of spice, someone tell my *WHY* -- they had to go and change
the voice of the guild navagator! I *LIKED* it the way it originally
was! It was serious and deep. *Then* they put in all these risings and
fallings, and idiot tonal inflections ("... we want him *Kiiiiiled*"
very stupid, esp in contrast to the way he originally said it) that
basically make it impossible to take him seriously, or have any sort
of appreciation for the scene, as we did in the original. Nope. Sorry.
But I'm going to have to differ with you here. Only the original
film version is worth watching. Now it's true, I like *some* of the
new footage (the scene with Gurney playing the balliset for example,
which I thought was good enough to warrant a re-taping of the good version
so I could incorporate it into it), but overall, I really hate the TV
version. And this is no small thing for me to say, since I happen to
hold the *good* version of Dune in extreme -- almost heretical! --
regard. Seriously. I find it to be one of the best films I've ever seen,
and easily one of the best sci-fi films. (I have my due respect for
Siskel and Ebert, but they do *not* know how to review sci-fi -- PERIOD!)
So believe me, it's not at all easy for me to dislike the longer version.
But I just can't scantion it. It's just too silly.
> ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
The sardukar, obviously. The imperial guard are not much better trained
than regular troopers. They are not terror troops like the sardukar, but
formal honor guards -- not at all comparable with Paul's guard. I mean
there's a *reason* why the imperial guards aren't used in battle, and the
sardukar *are*...
Mahada!
Adam J. Flisser
adam. <acc0848@tam2000> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Timothy Jones wrote:
>
>> who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard.
>
>elite of the already elite storm troopers. see, in the star wars
>universe (if you don't know, and i'm going to assume that you don't),
>contrary to the notion the movies give out, not just
>any old joe can become a storm trooper. they are the best of the
>imperial soldiery and must go through extremely rigorous training to just
>become one. now, the very best of THESE (comparable to the commander of a
>green beret unit) go on to become the imperial guards. only the best for
>the paranoid emperor palpatine, as well as our own shaddam IV. and to
>keep the imperial guard in peak fighting form, they regularly rotate into
>active service.
>
Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
"Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
Adam
adam.
On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Timothy Jones wrote:
> > ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
>
> The sardukar, obviously. The imperial guard are not much better trained
> than regular troopers. They are not terror troops like the sardukar, but
> formal honor guards -- not at all comparable with Paul's guard. I mean
> there's a *reason* why the imperial guards aren't used in battle, and the
> sardukar *are*...
>
> Mahada!
i'm gonna quibble on you with this...
the imperial guard are not "just formal honor guards." they are the
elite of the already elite storm troopers. see, in the star wars
universe (if you don't know, and i'm going to assume that you don't),
contrary to the notion the movies give out, not just
any old joe can become a storm trooper. they are the best of the
imperial soldiery and must go through extremely rigorous training to just
become one. now, the very best of THESE (comparable to the commander of a
green beret unit) go on to become the imperial guards. only the best for
the paranoid emperor palpatine, as well as our own shaddam IV. and to
keep the imperial guard in peak fighting form, they regularly rotate into
active service.
anyone who plays the star wars rpg can check the imperial sourcebook for
this information, and if you do, please confirm and correct me if i'm wrong.
btw, to get on the point--the sardaukar would still kick the storm
troopers asses big time. hey, they're the fiercest fighters in the
imperium (excepting the FREMEN, of course, for all you hair splitters),
as well as the best funded and equipped (i'd have to give training to the
atreides, though, for their skill in fighting that all the characters
of the atreides like gurney duncan and hawat as well as the lower
lieutenants have) in the imperium.
sorry to go so far off base,
pigz.
Geoff Burch
<Pine.A32.3.91i.95042...@homer08.u.washington.edu>,
Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
> On 24 Apr 1995, Muad 'Dib wrote:
And why -- for
> the love of spice, someone tell my *WHY* -- they had to go and change
> the voice of the guild navagator! I *LIKED* it the way it originally
> was! It was serious and deep. *Then* they put in all these risings and
> fallings, and idiot tonal inflections ("... we want him *Kiiiiiled*"
> very stupid, esp in contrast to the way he originally said it) that
> basically make it impossible to take him seriously, or have any sort
> of appreciation for the scene, as we did in the original.
Agreed completely here! I thought the original voice was soooo cool.
Herbert described it as "ululating", which aside from being a wonderful
adjective in itself, held true in the "commercial" film.
>
> > ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
>
> The sardukar, obviously. The imperial guard are not much better trained
> than regular troopers. They are not terror troops like the sardukar, but
> formal honor guards -- not at all comparable with Paul's guard. I mean
> there's a *reason* why the imperial guards aren't used in battle, and the
> sardukar *are*...
Yes, but the important thing to remember is that Teg could kill all of
them! :)
--
Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them
intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that
you become ignorant.
Mentat Text Two (decto)
T. Tran
> Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
Well, there is a difference between the imperial guards and the storm
troopers. (Too bad we never saw the guards in action) Besides, it was a
movie and the good guys had to win!
/------\ /--------------------------\
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| | ---- | | dog...@u.washington.edu
John P. Raynor
Distribution:
If the fight is hand-to-hand, the Imperial Stormtroopers wouldn't have a
chance. I'm willing to believe that Stormtrooper armor would turn a
blade, but the Sardaukar are undoubtedly clever enough fighters to be able
to find the gaps in that armor, and to exploit all of its disadvantages
(reduced flexibility, limited peripheral vision, and so forth). Yes, the
Fremen were better than the Sardaukar, but Herbert says that the
Sardaukar had once been EVEN BETTER than they were in the period when the
original novel took place, and that they had gone a bit soft.
If, however, the Imperial Stormtroopers CAN use their blasters, and have
enough sense to stay out of reach, the Sardaukar MIGHT be meat. Would a
blaster bolt cause an explosion if it hits a personal shield? Probably
not. It's pretty clear those AREN'T real lasers (this issue has already
been flogged to death in the endless "U.S.S. Enterprise vs. Imperial Star
Destroyer" thread). Would a personal shield block a blaster bolt?
Another good question. Perhaps it might reduce the damage, or deflect a
"grazing" shot. On the other hand, Stormtrooper armor doesn't seem to be
very good at stopping direct hits from energy weapons, and the Sardaukar
ARE adept at using lasguns against unshielded targets. As long as the
Stormtroopers can stay out of reach, they've got a chance. If, however,
the Sardaukar can force them to engage in hand-to-hand combat, the
Stormtroopers are absolutely, and undeniably, shredded meat. There's no
evidence that Stormtroopers are trained for hand-to-hand blade combat
(crowd control with riot batons, perhaps, but not fencing and real
swordsmanship).
- J. Raynor
T. Tran
> btw, to get on the point--the sardaukar would still kick the storm
> troopers asses big time. hey, they're the fiercest fighters in the
> imperium (excepting the FREMEN, of course, for all you hair splitters),
> as well as the best funded and equipped (i'd have to give training to the
> atreides, though, for their skill in fighting that all the characters
> of the atreides like gurney duncan and hawat as well as the lower
> lieutenants have) in the imperium.
But, the imperial guards get to use high tech weapons, and they have some
force training. The Sardaukars may be fierce but they don't have high
tech weapons; the Butlerian jihad took care of that.
I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass. He can't see the future but he has a
light saber (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
explosion like a lasgun would?), and he's got the Force! haha
> sorry to go so far off base,
who cares? :)
Vadim V. Fuks
STs are not equipped with personal shields and Ss are able to
smash them with lasguns.The question is - will the personal shield
explode contacting with Lightsaber's blade?
V.
Scooter
> I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass. He can't see the future but he has a
> light saber (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
> explosion like a lasgun would?), and he's got the Force! haha
>
> > sorry to go so far off base,
>
> who cares? :)
Off base?
Hardly.
Star Wars is loosely based on Dune.
Let's see. A barely post-adolescent male with noble blood and special powers (and a desert planet to boot) plots to overthrow a corrupt Emperor with a force of rebels.
Hmmmm......
And George Lucas has said Dune is one of his favourite books and an inspiration.
Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
--
Scooter
sco...@helix.net
Tarath
>Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as
>Dune the movie is to the novel, in which case disregard this,
>but from what I remember from the movie SW, Imperial Storm
>Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
>judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against
>a legion or two "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
Actually, the Stormtroopers weren't so terrible at shooting normal things
(although people make fun of the Sandcrawler's multiple hits all over the
place), just those darn heroes and insufferable Ewoks, who all had secret
phasing devices that made them impossible to train one's weapon on :).
But your point is valid still. The Sardaukar are still a superior fighting
force. But if you tossed in three Fremen into your above squabble, you'd
be left with a lot of crysknife-gashed corpse when all was said and done
:).
Simon H. Lee
Of course, if a bunch of unshielded STs shoot at some shielded Sardies,
there's gonna be one helluva explosion.
--
_________________________ALL DONE! BYE BYE!_________________________
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|_____________________________________________________________________|
KELLEY SPOON
> Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
> Adam
Heh. Hey...give 'em a break. It can't be easy to hit a moving pre-Jedi
Knight while wearing all that body armor. (Eventhough it never really
seemed to work that well.) I'm sure that deep down, these are guys are
Navy SEALS waiting to happen. ;)
Kelley
'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran
> And George Lucas has said Dune is one of his favourite books and an inspiration.
>
Did Herbert get any royalty off of this
> Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
Ah, but they don't have laser blasters, just those crummy maula guns
(spring operated!). Plus, in the book, they don't get those nifty
weirding modules, so they're good close-in fighters but maybe not good on
long range striking.
JACOB AMBOS
<Pine.A32.3.91i.95042...@homer16.u.washington.edu> <scooter-3004...@happy.helix.net>:
Distribution:
Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
: Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
Amen. I was waiting for someone to say this. A half dozen Fremen
children could take down whoever finally ends up winning that infernal
Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer thing. Besides, Stormtroopers are just an
army of Gilligans. SKIPPER!
Be seeing you,
Jake
eu...@waikato.ac.nz
> Storm Troopers has virtually no chance vs. Sardaukar since
> STs are not equipped with personal shields and Ss are able to
> smash them with lasguns.The question is - will the personal shield
> explode contacting with Lightsaber's blade?
> V.
If you read in the Glossary under 'shield, holtzman' you will see that
intersecting a shield with a phased light weapon will cause sub-atomic fission
- ie BOOOOM!!!
What does the crystal in a light saber do?
Yep, you guessed it.
One swing of the trusty blade = adios muchachos.
Try and use the force to get out of this one.
Simon H. Lee
>If you read in the Glossary under 'shield, holtzman' you will see that
>intersecting a shield with a phased light weapon will cause sub-atomic fission
>- ie BOOOOM!!!
>What does the crystal in a light saber do?
>Yep, you guessed it.
>One swing of the trusty blade = adios muchachos.
>Try and use the force to get out of this one.
Yeah, but *everybody loses*. That includes whoever's using the shield.
John Robertson
R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
Man, I have been up nights just wondering about THIS ONE!
ug.
John/Duke Leto@Dune II
Simon H. Lee
>Let's get right to the one we REALLY want to hear about...
>R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
>Man, I have been up nights just wondering about THIS ONE!
Umm...this thread is just getting stranger and stranger...
--
_________________________ALL DONE! BYE BYE!_________________________
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|_____________________________________________________________________|
as...@orion.alaska.edu
> Adam J. Flisser (fli...@mcard27.med.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
> Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
Stormtroopers are great fighters with one exeption. That is when they are
shooting at main characters. Remember the beginning of SW:ANH, when they take
over the Blockade Runner? They totally routed the guards, killing almost all
of them and driving the rest back in a matter of seconds. They shoot very
precisely ("Only Stormtroopers can shoot with such precision"- A very rough
paraphrase of what Ben Kenobi said about the shots on a land crawler. But it
is when they try to hit that one miserable group (Han, Luke, Chewie, Lando, or
Leia) that they don't seem to do so well. Just like if a Sardukar ever tried
to hit Paul. They could put the muzzle to his head, but the shot would still
somehow miss.
The wild man of Borneo
of nay laser with a shield creates atomic fusion in both sheild and gun.
Both would be killed...
LIM KENNETH IGNATIUS
: >R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
: Umm...this thread is just getting stranger and stranger...
Lets make it worse, Sarlacc vs. Shai Hulud (Sandworm to non Duners)
Adam Cooper
: >Let's get right to the one we REALLY want to hear about...
: >R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
: >Man, I have been up nights just wondering about THIS ONE!
Good one, good one. Better yet:
A sandtrout versus a Jawa
A sandworm versus Jabba the Hutt.
WAIT A MINUTE! Sandworm...Jabba...Sandworm...Jabba. *bing* That's
it!! Could Leto II and Jabba be distant cousins?!?!?
In all seriousness folks, I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
--Adam
=============================================================================
| Adam John Cooper | "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to |
| tura...@eng.umd.edu | teach him to hold in higher regard those |
| tu...@wam.umd.edu | who think alike than those who think |
| http://www.wam.umd.edu/~turin | differently." --Nietzsche |
=============================================================================
|"Understand one another? I fear I am beyond your comprehension" --Gandalf |
=============================================================================
Timothy Jones
On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, adam. wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Timothy Jones wrote:
>
> > > ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
> >
> > The sardukar, obviously. The imperial guard are not much better trained
> > than regular troopers. They are not terror troops like the sardukar, but
> > formal honor guards -- not at all comparable with Paul's guard. I mean
> > there's a *reason* why the imperial guards aren't used in battle, and the
> > sardukar *are*...
> >
> > Mahada!
>
> i'm gonna quibble on you with this...
I'd rather you quibbled *with* me, *on* this, but ah well...as long
as you wipe it up afterwords...:*)
> the imperial guard are not "just formal honor guards." they are the
> elite of the already elite storm troopers. see, in the star wars
> universe (if you don't know, and i'm going to assume that you don't),
Thank you, but I *am* a SW fan, ya' know!
> contrary to the notion the movies give out, not just
> any old joe can become a storm trooper. they are the best of the
> imperial soldiery and must go through extremely rigorous training to just
> become one.
Yeah I know. But just how much good does that do? I mean, everyone
I know recognizes the old pun about the "Stormtrooper Academy of
Marksmanship," but when's the last time you've heard such a remark
made about the sardukar? And what makes you think terror troop training
is either cheap or easy to come by? After all, these are *the* premere
military soldiers, which is why the emperor is the emperor, as opposed to
one of the other great houses; *their* soldiers (whome I would *at least*
put on a par with stormtroopers) aren't as feared as the sardukar,
because they're not as effective.
> Now, the very best of THESE (comparable to the commander of a
> green beret unit) go on to become the imperial guards. only the best for
> the paranoid emperor palpatine, as well as our own shaddam IV. and to
> keep the imperial guard in peak fighting form, they regularly rotate into
> active service.
Whereas the sardukar are *always* in active service.
> anyone who plays the star wars rpg can check the imperial sourcebook for
> this information, and if you do, please confirm and correct me if i'm wrong.
And be sure to check the info re the sardukar, if there exists
a sourcebook for DUNE in which this can be done. (Is there?)
> btw, to get on the point--the sardaukar would still kick the storm
> troopers asses big time. hey, they're the fiercest fighters in the
> imperium
Exactly.
> (excepting the FREMEN, of course,
Of course.
> for all you hair splitters),
> as well as the best funded and equipped (I'd have to give training to the
> atreides, though, for their skill in fighting that all the characters
> of the atreides like gurney duncan and hawat as well as the lower
> lieutenants have) in the imperium.
Well maybe. I'm not sure. It seems to me that if they were *that* much better
than the sardukar, Leto wouldn't need to build up his popularity base or
develope the weirding technology to be able to challenge the emperor; he'd
already be able to defeat him -- unless it's also a question of numbers.
> sorry to go so far off base,
Not at all. I think you're quite on task.
> pigz.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 29 Apr 1995, John P. Raynor wrote:
> 29317B-100000@tam2000>:
> Distribution:
>
> If the fight is hand-to-hand, the Imperial Stormtroopers wouldn't have a
> chance. I'm willing to believe that Stormtrooper armor would turn a
> blade,
Well I'm not! The sardukar aren't using some flimsy, bought-on-the-
-cable-home-shopping-network ginsu steak knives! Nay indeed, they
are weilding blades that are *meant* to penetrate armor. Besides, they
can also apparantly toss their opponents around like beach balls, indicating
significant strength advantages, no doubt one of the benefits of their
green gas environment suits.
> but the Sardaukar are undoubtedly clever enough fighters to be able
> to find the gaps in that armor, and to exploit all of its disadvantages
> (reduced flexibility, limited peripheral vision, and so forth).
This is true.
> Yes, the
> Fremen were better than the Sardaukar,
Well of course! This is just about sardukar vs stormtroopers.
Who mentioned the Fremen?
> but Herbert says that the
> Sardaukar had once been EVEN BETTER than they were in the period when the
> original novel took place, and that they had gone a bit soft.
Just the same, I am quite certain they can *still* beat stromtroopers;
and that -- even when they'd been "even better," -- the Fremen would
still beat *them*.
> If, however, the Imperial Stormtroopers CAN use their blasters, and have
> enough sense to stay out of reach, the Sardaukar MIGHT be meat.
The weapon of choice for the sardukar is the lasgun, which is *also*
a ranged weapon, as well as having rapid-fire and significant power.
Also, we've seen a sardukar get hit point blank with such weapons,
and still keep fighting (There are two such instances in the attack
in the film on house Atredies: The first is in the open battlefield,
when a sardukar is hit in the chest, screams briefly, then truns around
and tosses a soldier through the air as if nothing had happened.
The second is during the underground scene when a sardukar lays a
waving suppression fire down the hall, killing at least two (possibly
three or four) advancing atredies soldiers. Then Duncan appears
behind the sardukar from around the hall, and shoots him point blank.
After a second, the sardukar starts to get up, and Duncan has to
shatter the faceplate with his knife to put the terror troop down.)
> Would a
> blaster bolt cause an explosion if it hits a personal shield? Probably
> not. It's pretty clear those AREN'T real lasers (this issue has already
> been flogged to death in the endless "U.S.S. Enterprise vs. Imperial Star
> Destroyer" thread).
The shields are designed to stop fast moving attacks, and particularly
any normal sort of energy weapon attack, which is what made the
hunter-seeker necessary to take down Idaho, once he'd activated his
own bodyshield. This is why the wierding way was such a novel idea,
and why I'm convinced that blasters wouldn't do much good against
sardukar suits (perhapse *several* shots would get through, but not
just one or two), and would probably be ineffective on bodyshields.
> On the other hand, Stormtrooper armor doesn't seem to be
> very good at stopping direct hits from energy weapons, and the Sardaukar
> ARE adept at using lasguns against unshielded targets.
This is true.
> As long as the
> Stormtroopers can stay out of reach, they've got a chance.
When it's lasguns vs blasters, I'd say "reach" is by no means an
obvious ally of the stormtroopers.
> If, however,
> the Sardaukar can force them to engage in hand-to-hand combat, the
> Stormtroopers are absolutely, and undeniably, shredded meat.
> There's no
> evidence that Stormtroopers are trained for hand-to-hand blade combat
> (crowd control with riot batons, perhaps, but not fencing and real
> swordsmanship).
> - J. Raynor
Absolutely agreed.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, T. Tran wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, adam. wrote:
>
> > btw, to get on the point--the sardaukar would still kick the storm
> > troopers asses big time. hey, they're the fiercest fighters in the
> > imperium (excepting the FREMEN, of course, for all you hair splitters),
> > as well as the best funded and equipped (i'd have to give training to the
> > atreides, though, for their skill in fighting that all the characters
> > of the atreides like gurney duncan and hawat as well as the lower
> > lieutenants have) in the imperium.
>
> But, the imperial guards get to use high tech weapons,
Like what? All I see are blasters and other tech trinkets, which
are matched by sardaukar lasguns and hunter-seekers. Besides which,
there's no clear indication that blasters and other SW weapons will
penetrate the terror troops' environment suits. True, there's no
definite indication that they won't, but we've seen that stromtrooper
armor won't stop blaster bolts, but sardaukar suits *do* at least
deter weapon attacks. So it comes down to two questions: 1) Which
has better protection, and/or 2) Which has more powerfull weaponery.
If either one of these can be determined, the other will be at least
partially explained.
> and they have some force training.
Do they now? I thought *that* was for the priests and secret order
members only.
> The Sardaukars may be fierce but they don't have high tech weapons;
We don't know that. I'd say lasguns are pretty impressive.
> the Butlerian jihad took care of that.
No. The Butlerian jihad took care of droids and the like, which is why
they have mentats instead. It was technology *IN THE FORM OF A MAN*
that was revolted against and outlawed -- not advanced tech of any kind,
fullstop. Let's not throw the worm out with the sand. :*)
> I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass.
I bet you're wrong.
> He can't see the future
Wellllllll he *kinda'* can, just like Yoda kinda' can -- just not as well
as a reverend mother, or (of course) the kwisats hadarak [sp?].
> but he has a
> light saber
Which wouldn't get the chance to be used.
> (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
> explosion like a lasgun would?),
Doubtfull. It would likely just be blocked, just like a shield
is meant to block energy weapon -- in *both* stroyworlds.
> and he's got the Force! haha
And Paul can kill with a word! Mahada!
Luke: You will drop your weapons and submit to my will.
Paul: *DON'T* try your powers on me! Try looking into that
cave where you failed your test. You'll find *me* there,
testing you again!
Vader: I find you lack of fai-
Paul: SILENCE!!!
Luke or Vader: Arrrggggghhhh!
Paul: I remember your saber. Now *you'll* remember *mine*!
Oh and BTW, if you're thinking you can block the weirding way with
a lightsaber, *OR* block the Voice of even a mundane Bene Gesseret
with the Force, you'd better think again. The weirding moduel is
a sound weapon, not an energy weapon, and is in any case frequently
used in area-effect attacks as well as "bolt" shots. As for Force
resistance of the Voice, noone but Paul has proven to be absolutely
immune to it *no matter what*. If it's done properly, with proper
discipline and forced spice development, I doubt anyone could
resist; not the Hutts, not the Jedi, not even the emperor. OTOH,
we *know* it's possible to resist the Force just by having a relatively
strong mind, or by being a member of a particular race, like the Hutts.
I mean this sort of thing is the Bene Gesserit's forte; and Paul
was better than *they* were! Sorry to burst your bubble. But I'll
put Paul up against *any* foe in the SW universe, anyday!
Mahada!
Timothy Jones
On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, Geoff Burch wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.A32.3.91i.95042...@homer08.u.washington.edu>,
> Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 24 Apr 1995, Muad 'Dib wrote:
> > And why -- for
> > the love of spice, someone tell my *WHY* -- they had to go and change
> > the voice of the guild navagator! I *LIKED* it the way it originally
> > was! It was serious and deep. *Then* they put in all these risings and
> > fallings, and idiot tonal inflections ("... we want him *Kiiiiiled*"
> > very stupid, esp in contrast to the way he originally said it) that
> > basically make it impossible to take him seriously, or have any sort
> > of appreciation for the scene, as we did in the original.
>
> Agreed completely here! I thought the original voice was soooo cool.
> Herbert described it as "ululating", which aside from being a wonderful
> adjective in itself, held true in the "commercial" film.
Thanks! I thought I had no allies on this one. Whew! It's a relief
to know you're not insane...
> > > ps who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard..;)
> >
> > The sardukar, obviously. The imperial guard are not much better trained
> > than regular troopers. They are not terror troops like the sardukar, but
> > formal honor guards -- not at all comparable with Paul's guard. I mean
> > there's a *reason* why the imperial guards aren't used in battle, and the
> > sardukar *are*...
>
> Yes, but the important thing to remember is that Teg could kill all of
> them! :)
Who's Teg? (I've only read the first three books, and it's been awhile...)
> --
> Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them
> intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that
> you become ignorant.
> Mentat Text Two (decto)
As a philosophy major, I find this hauntingly true...
Timothy Jones
On 28 Apr 1995, Adam J. Flisser wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.950428032840.29317B-100000@tam2000>,
> adam. <acc0848@tam2000> wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Timothy Jones wrote:
No I didn't! I am neither quoted nor mentioned in this post!
And for the record, I AM ON THE SIDE FAVORING THE SARDAUKAR.
> >> who do you think would be victors between sardukar and the imperial guard.
> >
> >the imperial guard are not "just formal honor guards." they are the
> >elite of the already elite storm troopers. see, in the star wars
> >universe (if you don't know, and i'm going to assume that you don't),
> >contrary to the notion the movies give out, not just
> >any old joe can become a storm trooper. they are the best of the
> >imperial soldiery and must go through extremely rigorous training to just
> >become one. now, the very best of THESE (comparable to the commander of a
> >green beret unit) go on to become the imperial guards. only the best for
> >the paranoid emperor palpatine, as well as our own shaddam IV. and to
> >keep the imperial guard in peak fighting form, they regularly rotate into
> >active service.
>
> Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
> Adam
I agree completely!
Mahada!
Timothy Jones
On Mon, 1 May 1995, Simon H. Lee wrote:
>
>
> > Storm Troopers has virtually no chance vs. Sardaukar since
> >STs are not equipped with personal shields and Ss are able to
> >smash them with lasguns.The question is - will the personal shield
> >explode contacting with Lightsaber's blade?
> > V.
>
> Of course, if a bunch of unshielded STs shoot at some shielded Sardies,
> there's gonna be one helluva explosion.
We don't know that. There's no reason to think a blaster will react
in the same manner as a lasgun.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On Sun, 30 Apr 1995, Scooter wrote:
>
> > I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass. He can't see the future but he has a
> > light saber (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
> > explosion like a lasgun would?), and he's got the Force! haha
> >
> > > sorry to go so far off base,
> >
> > who cares? :)
>
> Off base?
>
> Hardly.
>
> Star Wars is loosely based on Dune.
>
> Let's see. A barely post-adolescent male with noble blood and special powers (and a desert planet to boot) plots to overthrow a corrupt Emperor with a force of rebels.
>
> Hmmmm......
>
> And George Lucas has said Dune is one of his favourite books and an inspiration.
>
> Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
Here here! (Oh Luuuuuke -- CHAALLLLL-DA!)
> --
> Scooter
> sco...@helix.net
>
>
Timothy Jones
On 1 May 1995, KELLEY SPOON wrote:
> Adam J. Flisser (fli...@mcard27.med.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
> > Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> > to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> > movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> > judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> > "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
>
> > Adam
>
> Heh. Hey...give 'em a break. It can't be easy to hit a moving pre-Jedi
> Knight while wearing all that body armor. (Eventhough it never really
> seemed to work that well.) I'm sure that deep down, these are guys are
> Navy SEALS waiting to happen. ;)
>
> Kelley
Yeah right. And Pee-Wee Herman could probably get into shape, take a few
karate classes, and before you know it, Schwartzenegger and Mr.T will be
simply terrified of 'em! (click) And now, back to reality...:*)
Timothy Jones
On 1 May 1995, Tarath wrote:
>
> >Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as
> >Dune the movie is to the novel, in which case disregard this,
> >but from what I remember from the movie SW, Imperial Storm
> >Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> >judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against
> >a legion or two "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
> Actually, the Stormtroopers weren't so terrible at shooting normal things
> (although people make fun of the Sandcrawler's multiple hits all over the
> place), just those darn heroes and insufferable Ewoks, who all had secret
> phasing devices that made them impossible to train one's weapon on :).
Funny. That doesn't seem to hinder the sardaukar...
> But your point is valid still. The Sardaukar are still a superior fighting
> force. But if you tossed in three Fremen into your above squabble, you'd
> be left with a lot of crysknife-gashed corpse when all was said and done
> :).
Well hell, of *course*! You're just not being fair, now! Sheesh! :*)
Timothy Jones
On Mon, 1 May 1995, 'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 1995, Scooter wrote:
>
> > And George Lucas has said Dune is one of his favourite books and an inspiration.
> >
>
> Did Herbert get any royalty off of this
No more than Battle beyond the Stars paid royaltys to GL. Your point?
> > Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
>
> Ah, but they don't have laser blasters, just those crummy maula guns
> (spring operated!).
Oh pah-leeze! Are you *seriously* gonna' try and take on Fremen with
stromtroopers! Man , I never would have thought even SWers could be
so pig-head stupid, appogant, and just plain wrong! Dude, haven't
you noticed that everyone's been walking on eggshells re the Fremen?
Even my most stark opponents in the ST vs SW threads have been laying
low where they're concerned. You should just stop and back pedel *now*
while you're still able to show your face! Mark my words, if you start
down the road you're on, you're going to be a laughing stock.
THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
even suggest such a thing. That was just a mistake, plain and simple.
If you think there's controversey over the ST vs SW threads, believe
me, you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
Ditka and the stupid frigging Bears won't beat them! They are the
ultimate warriors. They are *the end* in military strength. And *that*
is all she wrote. Shai'Halud [sp?] created Arrakis to train the faithfull.
One cannot go against his word...
Mahada!
Timothy Jones
On 1 May 1995, JACOB AMBOS wrote:
> 29317B-100000@tam2000>
> <Pine.A32.3.91i.95042...@homer16.u.washington.edu> <scooter-3004...@happy.helix.net>:
> Distribution:
>
> Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
>
> : Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
>
> Amen. I was waiting for someone to say this. A half dozen Fremen
> children could take down whoever finally ends up winning that infernal
> Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer thing.
If you mean the soldiers, I agree of course. The ships though?
Um...how? I mean, we're not talking about air power, sea power,
*or* desert power...but space power. Do the words "orbital
bombardment" mean anything to you? However, I *am* thinking
here really of only the Feds. I think house shielding and rock
shielding *would* be adequate defense against the imps, with the
sole exception of the DS superLASER. OTOH, a few spaceborn houseships,
armed with the large-scale weirding guns, and I'm not very worried
at all...
> Besides, Stormtroopers are just an army of Gilligans. SKIPPER!
:*D
> Be seeing you,
> Jake
And you,
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Timothy Jones
On 2 May 1995 as...@orion.alaska.edu wrote:
> In article <3o2k7l$2...@alpha.wright.edu>, s00...@discover.wright.edu (KELLEY SPOON) writes:
> > Adam J. Flisser (fli...@mcard27.med.nyu.edu) wrote:
> >
> > Uh, maybe the SW films are about as faithful to the books as Dune the movie is
> > to the novel, in which case disregard this, but from what I remember from the
> > movie SW, Imperial Storm Troopers couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag,
> > judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> > "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
> Stormtroopers are great fighters with one exeption. That is when they are
> shooting at main characters. Remember the beginning of SW:ANH, when they take
> over the Blockade Runner? They totally routed the guards, killing almost all
> of them and driving the rest back in a matter of seconds. They shoot very
> precisely ("Only Stormtroopers can shoot with such precision"- A very rough
> paraphrase of what Ben Kenobi said about the shots on a land crawler. But it
> is when they try to hit that one miserable group (Han, Luke, Chewie, Lando, or
> Leia) that they don't seem to do so well. Just like if a Sardukar ever tried
> to hit Paul. They could put the muzzle to his head, but the shot would still
> somehow miss.
Yeah right. And *that's* why a small alliance of rebels can overthrow
the empire? Hel-loo. The rebs had been operating well before the advent
of the main characters, and even in the ANH battle you mentioned, they
missed more often than not. They also had a distinct advantage there
in the form of numbers. And there *were* imperial casualties in that
battle. The truth is, the sardaukar have no such shortcommings.
That running gag about the stormtrooper Academy of Marksmanship does
*not* apply to the terror troops. There's a reason...
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 2 May 1995, The wild man of Borneo wrote:
> In article <3nrvmi$f...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (John P. Raynor) writes:
> > 29317B-100000@tam2000>:
> > Distribution:
> >
> > If the fight is hand-to-hand, the Imperial Stormtroopers wouldn't have a
> > chance. I'm willing to believe that Stormtrooper armor would turn a
> > blade, but the Sardaukar are undoubtedly clever enough fighters to be able
> > to find the gaps in that armor, and to exploit all of its disadvantages
> > (reduced flexibility, limited peripheral vision, and so forth). Yes, the
> > Fremen were better than the Sardaukar, but Herbert says that the
> > Sardaukar had once been EVEN BETTER than they were in the period when the
> > original novel took place, and that they had gone a bit soft.
> >
> > If, however, the Imperial Stormtroopers CAN use their blasters, and have
> > enough sense to stay out of reach, the Sardaukar MIGHT be meat. Would a
> > blaster bolt cause an explosion if it hits a personal shield? Probably
> > not. It's pretty clear those AREN'T real lasers (this issue has already
> > been flogged to death in the endless "U.S.S. Enterprise vs. Imperial Star
> > Destroyer" thread). Would a personal shield block a blaster bolt?
> > Another good question. Perhaps it might reduce the damage, or deflect a
> > "grazing" shot. On the other hand, Stormtrooper armor doesn't seem to be
> > very good at stopping direct hits from energy weapons, and the Sardaukar
> > ARE adept at using lasguns against unshielded targets. As long as the
> > Stormtroopers can stay out of reach, they've got a chance. If, however,
> > the Sardaukar can force them to engage in hand-to-hand combat, the
> > Stormtroopers are absolutely, and undeniably, shredded meat. There's no
> > evidence that Stormtroopers are trained for hand-to-hand blade combat
> > (crowd control with riot batons, perhaps, but not fencing and real
> > swordsmanship).
> > - J. Raynor
> A blaster bolt, like a lasgun is quite simply a laser.
We don't know that. And in fact, there's excellant reason to
deny this in *both* cases, not the least of which is that
an ordinary laser beam wouldn't be so dangerous around
bodyshields, and wouldn't travel in the waves and bolts
which the sardaukar's weapons fire. Furthermore, in the
final battle in the film, in appears almost as if the weapons
fire is actually turning, as if trying to track a target...
> The intersection
> of any laser with a shield creates atomic fusion in both sheild and gun.
> Both would be killed...
I'm not convinced that blasters owuld cause such a reaction. Besides,
the sardaukar don't always use shields, and they probably wouldn't
need them. Their environment suits seem pretty tough, as the film showed.
BTW, I think you're making way too much out of this boogyman laser-on-shield
thing. I mean, if that were *literally* true, then house shields would
be a very stupid idea in any context, since a wave of lasgun fire would
destroy what they were there to protect. Obviously, not *all* shields
in Dune have this problem, and those that do, do not have it in *all*
contexts.
Timothy Jones
On 3 May 1995, LIM KENNETH IGNATIUS wrote:
> Simon H. Lee (sh...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>
> : >R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
> : Umm...this thread is just getting stranger and stranger...
>
> Lets make it worse, Sarlacc vs. Shai Hulud (Sandworm to non Duners)
Get real! Not only is Sarlacc a pissant in size next to even a runt
worm, but the stupid Sarlacc can't even move! Remember what became
of the harvester that was attacked? That was metal! And the worm
ate it! Sarlacc would barely register as a orderve. It's only
defense is the fact that it's immobile, so as not to be sensed.
TSB
Simon H. Lee
wonder, though, in the infamous "Canonical or not" debate, how the movies
stands. I don't think the weirding modules were in the book, right? There
was the Way, but no microphone-and-box-device.
Considering that, though...that general idea is hard to describe, as
are a few other things about Dune (which I consider as great a work of SF as
anything). Somehow, I think a Guild Heighliner's ability to basically pop
up anywhere in the span of a few seconds puts it far ahead of the entire
warp vs. hyperspace debate, but I don't even speculate anymore about how it
really works. I suppose the Force could be used as the catch-all reason for
everything, though...assume that all these powers are just a really high
level of Force development...oh well, I'll let you handle this one.
Idea: Sardaukar vs. Clan Elemental in battle armor? Hmm. Anyone?
Not being negative, just being speculative.
--
_________________________ALL DONE! BYE BYE!_________________________
| __ |
| / \* |
| \__ _ _ _ _ "Adevarul este undeva imprejur." |
| \|| | |/ \| \ |
| \__/|| | |\_/| | |
|_____________________________________________________________________|
Michael Williams
Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>which the sardaukar's weapons fire. Furthermore, in the
>final battle in the film, in appears almost as if the weapons
>fire is actually turning, as if trying to track a target...
Considering how inacurate the film generally is, its kind of pointless
to consider something in it for an argument. In reality, Herbert never
really explains what a lasgun is, although the very name implies that
it is a LASer GUN.
Phil Shimmin
Timothy Jones
On 2 May 1995 eu...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
> In article <3o04g4$f...@shum.cc.huji.ac.il>, va...@pita.cs.huji.ac.il (Vadim V. Fuks) writes:
> > Storm Troopers has virtually no chance vs. Sardaukar since
> > STs are not equipped with personal shields and Ss are able to
> > smash them with lasguns.The question is - will the personal shield
> > explode contacting with Lightsaber's blade?
> > V.
>
> If you read in the Glossary under 'shield, holtzman' you will see that
> intersecting a shield with a phased light weapon will cause sub-atomic fission
> - ie BOOOOM!!!
This does *not* necessarially apply to blasters. And the sardaukar
are quite well protected w/o shields in their environment suits.
> What does the crystal in a light saber do?
It focuses the beam. So?
> Yep, you guessed it.
> One swing of the trusty blade = adios muchachos.
Yeah, *both* of them! And that's *if* the saber is like a lasgun, which
I'm not at all convinced it is, and *if* its weilder gets the chance
to use it, which I'm not at all convinced s/he would.
> Try and use the force to get out of this one.
What makes you think the terror troops are weak-minded. After all,
practically everyone in the imperiem uses melange at one time or
another, which both extends their lifespan (roughly 2 centuries
for ordinary people), and expands their consciousness. My guess?
The Force would work as a putative weapon -- say, to cause direct
harm, by squeezing their hearts or throats -- but *not* as a means
of mental domination. And BTW, since this is about the terror troops
vs *stromtroopers* -- and not the *very* few Force users...who'd
be easily counteracted by the Bene Gesserit and the Guild -- considerations
of the Force are irrelevant.
Mahada!
Timothy Jones
On 4 May 1995 eu...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
> In article <shl10.54...@cornell.edu>, sh...@cornell.edu (Simon H. Lee) writes:
> >
> >>If you read in the Glossary under 'shield, holtzman' you will see that
> >>intersecting a shield with a phased light weapon will cause sub-atomic fission
> >>- ie BOOOOM!!!
> >>What does the crystal in a light saber do?
> >>Yep, you guessed it.
> >>One swing of the trusty blade = adios muchachos.
> >>Try and use the force to get out of this one.
> >
> >>Eu...@waikato.ac.nz
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but *everybody loses*. That includes whoever's using the shield.
>
> And everyone up to about a 12 mile radius from ground zero!
Well *that* might be overstating the danger a bit. (If this were
the literal state of things, then suicide troops would easily
take out large sections of enemy forces, which never happens...)
And besides, there's no clear evidence that SW weapons would react
in this manner. Add to this the fact that sardaukar don't seem
to use shields in the films at all (and don't *always* use them in
the books), and I think it's safe to say that it's not that big of
a problem for them to deal with.
> I hope they never meet.
Well being that they're both sci-fi, I somehow doubt they will...:*)
Timothy Jones
On 3 May 1995, Adam Cooper wrote:
> Simon H. Lee (sh...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>
> : >Let's get right to the one we REALLY want to hear about...
>
> : >R2D2 vs. The Shadout Mapes!
>
> : >Man, I have been up nights just wondering about THIS ONE!
Hey look, just 'cause Yueh [sp?] kiiled her via treachery doesn't
make her easy. She's still a fremen! Hell man, IG-88 couldn't
take down a fremen, esp when armed with a wierding moduel. I
would regard any wardroid from SW as comparable to the practice
fighters used in the film.
> Good one, good one. Better yet:
>
> A sandtrout versus a Jawa
No you're being stupid.
> A sandworm versus Jabba the Hutt.
No you're being very stupid.
> WAIT A MINUTE! Sandworm...Jabba...Sandworm...Jabba. *bing* That's
> it!! Could Leto II and Jabba be distant cousins?!?!?
Now you're being deliberately stupid.
> In all seriousness folks,
Yes please.
> I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
> it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
Mahada!
Christopher Novosad
>Timothy Jones, stop clogging up this group, ok.
There are many ways to deal with "noisemakers" on a newsgroup. I read a
FAQ in the "proper way to deal with such people" once, and if I find it
I'll post it. I find the best way to deal with them is to:
a) ignore them! Don't reply to their posts, since they are usually looking
for negative attention.
b) put them in your killfile, and you won't have to hear their noise, ever.
c) Hope that RASS is split -- and a moderated newsgroup is formed, then
people like that can be booted out.
Above all, DON'T DO WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO!
A small bit of advice, for what it's worth,
. "... Still, even a duck has to be taught to swim." .
. "What's a duck?" Luke asked curiously. .
o "Never mind..." Kenobi's unabashed look of evaluation made Luke nervous.o
O - Star Wars novelization O
o ------------------------------------------------------------------------ o
. Christopher Novosad, sometimes Pa'ash Shonasha, all others: .
. VOLTAYRE, Gundark Ear Puller, Esq. (volt...@actlab.utexas.edu) .
eu...@waikato.ac.nz
>
>>If you read in the Glossary under 'shield, holtzman' you will see that
>>intersecting a shield with a phased light weapon will cause sub-atomic fission
>>- ie BOOOOM!!!
>>What does the crystal in a light saber do?
>>Yep, you guessed it.
>>One swing of the trusty blade = adios muchachos.
>>Try and use the force to get out of this one.
>
>>Eu...@waikato.ac.nz
>
>
> Yeah, but *everybody loses*. That includes whoever's using the shield.
And everyone up to about a 12 mile radius from ground zero!
I hope they never meet.
Daniel Oberes
Shadout Mapes from the Dune movie?
fe...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
between Dune and SW has interested me for a long time. As far as Sardauker
vs. Storm Troopers? Think about this scene. Empire Strikes Back. Lando
and his forces surprise the squad of 'Troopers and get the drop on them.
The 'Troopers...surrender?!? Bunch of wussies, if you ask me. Can you see
Sardauker in the same situation? Back-to-back (to back) in threes. They
might all die, but Lando would be a smudge on the wall before they all went
down. How 'bout a trip to the SPICE planet of Kessel to check things out!
Here's another thought--Bene Gesserit (probably have to be a Rev. Mother) vs.
a Jedi.
Sorry this is an esoteric topic for those who are unfamiliar with Dune. Do
yourself a favor and read the book. For those who have read it--can you
imagine how much better the SW books would be if Frank Herbert wrote them?
-david
fe...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
"let the wookie win."
"Hai, Harkonnen!" the slave called. "Are you prepared to die?"
ps. anyone know of a Dune newsgroup out there?
Nathan Madison
>to consider something in it for an argument. In reality, Herbert never
>really explains what a lasgun is, although the very name implies that
>it is a LASer GUN.
According to the glossery in the Back of _Dune_ a lasgun is a
"continuous-wave laser projector" A fancy term for laser. I also agree that
using facts from the movie is not a valid way of proving anything in the
_Dune_ universe. The movie was good, but it is not the Books. As to who would
win, I would have to say the Sardaukar, they are better trained.
Nathan
Kevin L. Lord
Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
>> it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
>
>The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
>then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
>
>Mahada!
No, I'm afraid that the Fish Speakers were vastly superior to the
Fremen at their top, the Sardaukar at -their- top, and, indeed, any
good Fish Speaker would have most likely been able to take down
Paul, Duncan, Gurney, and Stilgar all at the same time. (To those
of you who balk at this... Re: God Emperor of Dune, where Moneo, an
old man of 270 or so... and also a -bureaucrat-... not -even- one
of the elite Fish Speakers... Regard where Moneo puts Duncan on his
ass in about a second, without any sort of trouble at *all*.)
The reason is, my friend, that Leto II took the remnants of the
Fremen and bred them with the strong... over the next 3000 years
since his ascension, he made them into the toughest, most elite
fighting force that the universe had ever seen.
So... basically, the Fremen would lose very *quickly* and very
*badly*... for the simple reason that the Fish Speakers are the
next evolution of the Fremen...
Kevin
--
Daniel Oberes
I still think Shadout Mapes vs. an Ewok would be the best!
Timothy Jones
On Wed, 3 May 1995, Simon H. Lee wrote:
> Well, Mr. Jones, you've created quite a thread here. I have to
> wonder, though, in the infamous "Canonical or not" debate, how the movies
> stands. I don't think the weirding modules were in the book, right? There
> was the Way, but no microphone-and-box-device.
As I just got through explaining to someone else in email, the book
does *not* expressly rule out the interpretation of the inclusion of
new tech in the weirding way, which was even there established to at
least be a novel form of fighting style or technique. I once saw a nifty
photo of Kyle MacLachlan standing arm-in-arm and shoulder-to-shoulder
with Frank Herbert, on the film set. Frank had tried to write (or
help write) a script, which he said in his own words "...was lousy."
He prefered the onw that got used. *That* means he had given it "the nod,"
so to speak. He has never mentioned any aspect of it that he disapproved of.
It has his countenance. :*)
Besides, films are just in general always considered as canon as books.
(I seem to recall hearing that somewhere before -- hint to the SWers...)
> Considering that, though...that general idea is hard to describe, as
> are a few other things about Dune
Oh I dunno. Seems to me one just has to work a little...which I think is
a good thing.
> (which I consider as great a work of SF as anything).
Agreed wholeheartedly.
> Somehow, I think a Guild Heighliner's ability to basically pop
> up anywhere in the span of a few seconds puts it far ahead of the entire
> warp vs. hyperspace debate,
True. But then, I never tried to compare either to DUNE. That's a special
brand of tom-foolery, reserved for certain extremeists on r.a.s.s.
I only intercede to defend the truth when it's challenged. There is little
from either universe that I'd put on a par with DUNE.
> but I don't even speculate anymore about how it really works.
How what works, exactly? If you mean, how folding space works, the idea
is really quite simple. Instead of moving through space, you hold still,
and the rest of the cosmos shifts. A close analogy would be to lay
a paperclip down flat to represent space, and put the point of a pencil
inside it at a 45 degree angle. Now normal movement would simply be
a matter of moving the pencil point from one side of the inside of the
paperclip to the other. When folding space, the pencil point stays still,
and the paperclip is moved, so that its opposite side or boarder is
now closer to the object that stayed still. Another, perhapse closer
idea, is that space is *literally* folded, hence the name. This is
the notion of forming what is called a tesseract (which, coincidently, is
also the name for a four-dimensional hypercibe -- hmm...), which is like
speeding up travel by shortening the distance between origin and destination.
If you've ever read "A Wrinkle In Time" (an above average book for
somewhat younger readers), you may recall it's illustration of a bug on
a long piece of string. When the string was bent (the hands were brought
closer together), the bug was able to hop from one end of it to the other
side instantly, or as Douglas Adams puts it,"Without all that tedious
mucking about in hyperspace." (refering in his case to the Infinite
Improbability Drive in his Hitchhikers books; which in certain respects
is not unlike folding space...)
Clear?
> I suppose the Force could be used as the catch-all reason for
> everything, though...assume that all these powers are just a really high
> level of Force development...oh well, I'll let you handle this one.
The "handleing" is simple. The Force is not omnipotence, even for its
masters. Its limits in the RPG are rather strict, and in *any* context
it's a good deal easier to block or resist then spice-evolved powers.
> Idea: Sardaukar vs. Clan Elemental in battle armor? Hmm. Anyone?
I wouldn't know. I'm ignorant re Battletech *and* Robotech. I can
speculate that the sardaukar would be more numerous, but to give
a definitive answer I'd need to know more about their respective
weapons and their effectiveness. Would sardaukar encounter suits
protect them normally? Would their enhanced strength be a match
for the CEs? How pernicious would lasguns be on the CEs, and *their*
weapons on the terror troops? I just don't know; I plead insuffecient data.
> Not being negative, just being speculative.
I understand.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 4 May 1995, Phil Shimmin wrote:
> Timothy Jones, stop clogging up this group, ok.
Phil Shimmin, you're not my mother, ok. If you're posting from r.a.s.s,
then I remind you for about the hndredth time now that you folks do
*not* own franchise rights to it, and *any* post that relates to SW
is relevant, whether you care to see that fact or not. If you're posting
from a.f.d, [shakes head in disbelief] all I can say is I can't believe
my eyes! You know, *I* did *not* start this thread; you'd think you guys
would be gratefull for a little support. Sheesh! Well in any case, I do
not see that I am "clogging up" a damn thing. I am posting my position
on a group-relevant topic, in response to a claim I don't agree with.
That is precisely the sort of thing the net is for, I have every right
to do so. If you or anyone else (from *either* group) don't/doesn't
agree, then you need to start a moderated group, which these are not.
THE END
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 4 May 1995, Christopher Novosad wrote:
> In article <3oasst$l...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk>, Phil Shimmin <ph...@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Timothy Jones, stop clogging up this group, ok.
>
> There are many ways to deal with "noisemakers" on a newsgroup. I read a
> FAQ in the "proper way to deal with such people" once, and if I find it
> I'll post it. I find the best way to deal with them is to:
>
> a) ignore them! Don't reply to their posts, since they are usually looking
> for negative attention.
I am defending the truth. Period. I did not start this thread, and
I am not after attention. The silence of my detractors would suit
me just fine.
> b) put them in your killfile, and you won't have to hear their noise, ever.
Again, that would be fine with me, esp when it comes to anyone unable
to face facts. I will still respond to all falsehoods.
> c) Hope that RASS is split -- and a moderated newsgroup is formed, then
> people like that can be booted out.
Oh I agree. And guess what else: those who would start such threads
and insist on such idiot falsehoods such as require my setting them
straight would be the first to go. I don't mind that my postings to
these threads would be disallowed in the slightest, because neither
would those of my detractors. If people think they can hideout in a
moderated group and spout their nonsense with impunity, thereby getting
that all-important last word and thus scoring some sort of cheap and
cowardly victory they haven't earned because their too afraid (inhale),
they're in for a disappointment. Any place where *you* can talk about
"X vs Y," I can talk back. Live with it.
> Above all, DON'T DO WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO!
You mean, argue rationally, as opposed to waste time ad hominizing?
Well if so, then *that's* the sort of policy that's *really* caused
these debates to becoms congested.
> A small bit of advice, for what it's worth,
Depending on how you meant certain things, it's either priceless or
valueless or counter-productive. It depends...
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Timothy Jones
On 5 May 1995, Adam Cooper wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : On 3 May 1995, Adam Cooper wrote:
>
> [INCIPIT DELETIA]
>
> : > I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
> : > it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
>
> : The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
> : then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
>
> Well, I'm not saying that any individual Fish Speaker would be a match
> for any individual Fremen or any even any individual Sardukaur... my
> "unarmed combat" above might be a bit premature, though I don't think one
> can entirely discount the fact that Leto II purposely bred the Fish
> Speakers over the years to be ideal human attackers. Witness Siona and
> her superior fighting ability to Idaho (though granted Duncan was no
> Fremen warrior): Siona, though not a Fish Speaker herself, was trained by
> them during her childhood.
OK, this is starting to make a bit more sense, now that you've grounded
it as a DUNE reference. I am afraid I cannot speak intelligently on
this, since as I said, I've only read the first three DUNE books, and
am thus unfamiliar with the fish speakers. *My* only point was that,
if they were something that was *non*-DUNE, then I would *never*
countenance their being a match for the Fremen. As it stands, I just
don't know.
> However, my emphasis is more on Fish Speakers as a military unit; their
> sense of community and group empathy I feel contributes to a totality
> that is more effectively focused as an aggressive unit than years of
> imposed training (Sardukaur), or even ritual traditions (Fremen).
If I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing, then I can give one response,
which is to note that the Fremen are trained by more than just
"ritual traditions," but also by the hardships of Arrakis life.
> Of course, in some sense we are comparing apples and oranges... the fish
> Speakers were not used against enemy armies (there weren't really any in
> their time) so much as internal policing, and, indeed, it was their
> feminine qualities that made them more effective for this role. With
> this in mind, I'm willing to relent and say they may not have been as
> competitive in purely military situations as either Fremen or Sardukau,
> though I believe some of the facts mentioned above should be taken into
> consideration.
A feminine police force? Hmm...
Did they have any special powers? What were their methods?
I need more data...
> (P.S. I *still* say Leto II and Jabba the Hutt are distant relations...
> ;-) ;-) ;-) )
Oh brother...
"Yes, exactly!"
That's it! Annie, get your gun. :*)
> Siaynoq!
Sorry, I'm not familiar with this one...?
> --Adam
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 5 May 1995, Jason Iler wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.A32.3.91i.950504...@homer04.u.washington.edu>
> Timothy Jones, time...@u.washington.edu writes:
> >> I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
> >> it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
> >
> >The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
> >then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
>
> To be polite, I'd suggest you read ALL the Dune novels
> before you compare different groups in the same universe.
Yes I know. My apologies. As I explained in my response to him, I
thought he was compairing the Fremen to something non-DUNE; which
I can never tolerate. I provisionally recant.
> The Fish Speakers were
> established by Leto II as elite guards who were entirely loyal to him,
> and the reason for their formation was- you guessed it!- the CONTROL of
> the Fremen. There's lots of history behind it, but the bottom line is
> that the Fremen were dissatisfied with Leto II and began a revolt to end
> his millenia- long reign. So, Leto assembled a band of highly trained
> women to perform the tasks of guardians and defenders, and their training
> was supposedly greater than that of the Fremen.
Impressive. But if their function was guardianship and general crowd
control, it's still possible that they could be overcome by the Fremen
in open war, yes?
> I'm not at all discounting the effectiveness of the Fremen,
> and I do realize that r.a.s.s. is not the newsgroup to be discussing
> this on;
Well yes and no. It *began* here, and was started *by* rass members.
So don't apologise too profusely. We are only temporarially off-topic,
and in a distant sense, this may relate to the comparason of the
sardaukar to imperial stormtroopers.
> I'm just advising on gathering all the facts before shooting someone down.
Agreed. I wasn't aware of the nature of what I was "shooting down."
I was hasty and I misunderstood. Still, the spirit of what I said
was correct; no non-DUNE fighting force will ever be a match for
the Fremen.
> Jason Iler
> il...@ucs.orst.edu
>
> ** Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. **
...or a dog-biscut. :*)
Adam Cooper
: On 3 May 1995, Adam Cooper wrote:
[INCIPIT DELETIA]
: > I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
: > it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
: The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
: then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
Well, I'm not saying that any individual Fish Speaker would be a match
for any individual Fremen or any even any individual Sardukaur... my
"unarmed combat" above might be a bit premature, though I don't think one
can entirely discount the fact that Leto II purposely bred the Fish
Speakers over the years to be ideal human attackers. Witness Siona and
her superior fighting ability to Idaho (though granted Duncan was no
Fremen warrior): Siona, though not a Fish Speaker herself, was trained by
them during her childhood.
However, my emphasis is more on Fish Speakers as a military unit; their
sense of community and group empathy I feel contributes to a totality
that is more effectively focused as an aggressive unit than years of
imposed training (Sardukaur), or even ritual traditions (Fremen).
Of course, in some sense we are comparing apples and oranges... the fish
Speakers were not used against enemy armies (there weren't really any in
their time) so much as internal policing, and, indeed, it was their
feminine qualities that made them more effective for this role. With
this in mind, I'm willing to relent and say they may not have been as
competitive in purely military situations as either Fremen or Sardukau,
though I believe some of the facts mentioned above should be taken into
consideration.
(P.S. I *still* say Leto II and Jabba the Hutt are distant relations...
;-) ;-) ;-) )
Siaynoq!
--Adam
=============================================================================
| Adam John Cooper | "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to |
| tura...@eng.umd.edu | teach him to hold in higher regard those |
| tu...@wam.umd.edu | who think alike than those who think |
| http://www.wam.umd.edu/~turin | differently." --Nietzsche |
=============================================================================
|"Understand one another? I fear I am beyond your comprehension" --Gandalf |
=============================================================================
Jason Iler
<Pine.A32.3.91i.950504...@homer04.u.washington.edu>
Timothy Jones, time...@u.washington.edu writes:
>> it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
>
>The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
>then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
To be polite, I'd suggest you read ALL the Dune novels before you
compare different groups in the same universe. The Fish Speakers were
established by Leto II as elite guards who were entirely loyal to him,
and the reason for their formation was- you guessed it!- the CONTROL of
the Fremen. There's lots of history behind it, but the bottom line is
that the Fremen were dissatisfied with Leto II and began a revolt to end
his millenia- long reign. So, Leto assembled a band of highly trained
women to perform the tasks of guardians and defenders, and their training
was supposedly greater than that of the Fremen.
I'm not at all discounting the effectiveness of the Fremen, and I do
realize that r.a.s.s. is not the newsgroup to be discussing this on; I'm
just advising on gathering all the facts before shooting someone down.
Timothy Jones
On 4 May 1995, Daniel Oberes wrote:
> You know that little ewok Wicket? Well, what if he fought that midget,
> Shadout Mapes from the Dune movie?
You're being an idiot. Mapes is a Fremen, the most fearsom fighters
in the universe, and Wicket is an annoying furball. Don't waste our time.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On Fri, 5 May 1995, Kevin L. Lord wrote:
> In article <Pine.A32.3.91i.950504...@homer04.u.washington.edu>,
> Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >> I'd cast my vote for Fish Speakers any day when
> >> it comes to group tactics and/or unarmed combat...
> >
> >The who? [shakes head] Anyway, if you're placing them above the fremen,
> >then you're a fool, and just plain wrong. Period.
> >
> >Mahada!
>
> No, I'm afraid that the Fish Speakers were vastly superior to the
> Fremen at their top, the Sardaukar at -their- top,
Yeah I know, I know. See my other respon-posts on this. I have only
read the first three books, and thought that they were something
non-DUNE.
> and, indeed, any
> good Fish Speaker would have most likely been able to take down
> Paul,
Sorry, but I must disagree. The FSs were formidable I'm sure.
But were they all kwisats hadaraks?! Somehow I find that difficult
to swallow, considering how long it took to produce just one -- Paul.
OTOH...
> Duncan, Gurney, and Stilgar all at the same time.
...this may well be true.
> (To those
> of you who balk at this... Re: God Emperor of Dune, where Moneo, an
> old man of 270 or so... and also a -bureaucrat-... not -even- one
> of the elite Fish Speakers... Regard where Moneo puts Duncan on his
> ass in about a second, without any sort of trouble at *all*.)
Duncan was one "man," and *not* the male-Bene Gesseret superbeing!
> The reason is, my friend, that Leto II took the remnants of the
> Fremen and bred them with the strong... over the next 3000 years
> since his ascension, he made them into the toughest, most elite
> fighting force that the universe had ever seen.
My impression from the other posters was that the FSs were a police
force more than an army. In an open war, it is not obvious that
the Fremen would loose.
> So... basically, the Fremen would lose very *quickly* and very
> *badly*...
Maybe. Maybe not. At least consider the question of numbers.
How many Fremen and how many FSs are there?
> for the simple reason that the Fish Speakers are the
> next evolution of the Fremen...
Well *now* the question is redundant! "Fremen could beat other Fremen."
So? Did I ever say anything to the contrary? *My* point was only
re *non*-Fremen (in *any* sense -- as in non-DUNE) vs Fremen. And
besides, I was talking about things as they stood AS OF DUNE. At *that*
time, my original statement would not even require the limited addending
given it here.
> Kevin
a timelord
Timothy Jones
On 4 May 1995, Michael Williams wrote:
> In article <Pine.A32.3.91i.95050...@homer13.u.washington.edu>,
> Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> >which the sardaukar's weapons fire. Furthermore, in the
> >final battle in the film, in appears almost as if the weapons
> >fire is actually turning, as if trying to track a target...
>
> Considering how inacurate the film generally is,
Like where?
> its kind of pointless
> to consider something in it for an argument. In reality, Herbert never
> really explains what a lasgun is, although the very name implies that
> it is a LASer GUN.
I tried that line re turboLASER and DS superLASER, and few in rass
have accepted it...
Given the nature, appearance, and behavior of lasgun fire, I seriously
doubt it's meant to be taken as a conventional laser. And besides, a
*conventional* laser would be dangerous around bodyshields at all...why
should it? Nope, there's gotta' be more here to this that just that.
TSB
"We have entered the time when all will turn against us,
and seek our lives." -- Paul to Jessica
LIM KENNETH IGNATIUS
Thats the whole point, they are very big on the self-sacrifice thing in
the Dune universe. Besides, you could do what the Atreides guys did when
they abandoned the fortress: leave a major wall shield on.
Ville Lehtonen
Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, T. Tran wrote:
: > On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, adam. wrote:
: > The Sardaukars may be fierce but they don't have high tech weapons;
: We don't know that. I'd say lasguns are pretty impressive.
It depends on what you are comparing it with.. phasers(this is irrelevant
in this conversation, though) and light sabers are much better than lasers.
: > I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass.
: I bet you're wrong.
Dunno.., but there can be many Jedis compared to the possible amount of
kwisats hadaraks...
: Wellllllll he *kinda'* can, just like Yoda kinda' can -- just not as well
: as a reverend mother, or (of course) the kwisats hadarak [sp?].
: > but he has a
: > light saber
: Which wouldn't get the chance to be used.
: > (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
: > explosion like a lasgun would?),
: Doubtfull. It would likely just be blocked, just like a shield
: is meant to block energy weapon -- in *both* stroyworlds.
I don't think that a shield couldn't stop a lightsaber, I haven't seen
anything stopping one..
: Vader: I find you lack of fai-
: Paul: SILENCE!!!
: Luke or Vader: Arrrggggghhhh!
: Paul: I remember your saber. Now *you'll* remember *mine*!
Ok.., Jedis would propably loose (unless they are in very great numbers),
but how about Jedi masters? (Emperor, Yoda etc.) I don't think that
Paul could kill them with a word...
: discipline and forced spice development, I doubt anyone could
: resist; not the Hutts, not the Jedi, not even the emperor.
Never underestimate the power of the Dark side (I believe that Paul
could kill any Jedi master challenging him.., but there were hundreds
of them once.. even three could beat Paul).
: OTOH,
: we *know* it's possible to resist the Force just by having a relatively
: strong mind, or by being a member of a particular race, like the Hutts.
The Force can be used in other ways than trough the mind (Emperor frying
Luke, DV throwing stuff at him in ESB etc.)
: I mean this sort of thing is the Bene Gesserit's forte; and Paul
: was better than *they* were! Sorry to burst your bubble. But I'll
: put Paul up against *any* foe in the SW universe, anyday!
Is DS a foe? (ok, propably not).. The ST universe seems to have stronger
foes...
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
: On 28 Apr 1995, Adam J. Flisser wrote:
: > judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
: > "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
Their aim? In ANH they are quite accurate.. Try to have a Sardaukar trying
to mortally wound Han or the Droids :) Hopeless
even from point blank range
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
u.washington.edu>
Distribution:
Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: On Mon, 1 May 1995, 'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran wrote:
: > On Sun, 30 Apr 1995, Scooter wrote:
: >
: > > Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
: >
: > Ah, but they don't have laser blasters, just those crummy maula guns
: > (spring operated!).
: If you think there's controversey over the ST vs SW threads, believe
: me, you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
: Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
I would bet on the Jedi in one vs one combat... The Force is very handy,
but the problem is that there are very few Jedis compared to Fremen..
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
: On 1 May 1995, JACOB AMBOS wrote:
: > Distribution:
: >
: > Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
: >
: > : Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
: >
: > Amen. I was waiting for someone to say this. A half dozen Fremen
: > children could take down whoever finally ends up winning that infernal
: > Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer thing.
: If you mean the soldiers, I agree of course.
The Redshirts are the ultimate warriors.. never mind the Fremen :)
: The ships though?
: Um...how? I mean, we're not talking about air power, sea power,
: *or* desert power...but space power. Do the words "orbital
: bombardment" mean anything to you? However, I *am* thinking
: here really of only the Feds. I think house shielding and rock
: shielding *would* be adequate defense against the imps, with the
: sole exception of the DS superLASER. OTOH, a few spaceborn houseships,
: armed with the large-scale weirding guns, and I'm not very worried
: at all...
Aren't weirding guns voice weapons? How are you going to use them
in space? And the Feds could adapt quite fast.., the Imps couldn't.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
: Here's another thought--Bene Gesserit (probably have to be a Rev. Mother) vs.
: a Jedi.
If you mix the two universes, the Bene Gesserit would propably be a very,
very advanced group of force users (propably better than Jedi masters)
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
: : > Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
: : >
:>: Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
This depends on what you count in as fighters..
They could beat any soldiers (the Borg would be impossible to kill from
long range, though.. if they would start 1km apart, the Borg would win)
Then there are few exceptions.. these are not fighters but could kill
Fremen easily:
1. Qs (ok, even one could kill them all)
2. Jedis
3. Paul (Kwizats haderak or something like that)
4. Reverend mothers
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
: On 2 May 1995, The wild man of Borneo wrote:
: > A blaster bolt, like a lasgun is quite simply a laser.
I (as a ST vs SW veteran, the ST side) don't believe that blasters
are lasers, simply because they travel slower than c.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 3 May 1995, Simon H. Lee wrote:
: > Somehow, I think a Guild Heighliner's ability to basically pop
: > up anywhere in the span of a few seconds puts it far ahead of the entire
: > warp vs. hyperspace debate,
: True. But then, I never tried to compare either to DUNE. That's a special
: brand of tom-foolery, reserved for certain extremeists on r.a.s.s.
: I only intercede to defend the truth when it's challenged. There is little
: from either universe that I'd put on a par with DUNE.
You're forgetting Q.., he could beat anything in _any_ universe...
: > but I don't even speculate anymore about how it really works.
: How what works, exactly? If you mean, how folding space works, the idea
: is really quite simple. Instead of moving through space, you hold still,
: and the rest of the cosmos shifts. A close analogy would be to lay
This sound quite like fast wormholes in ST, or Lt. Barclays nice invention
when he was super-intelligent...
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
Er, no. Once again, I must bitch about however it is out there
that refuses to edit properly. I am neither quoted nor mentioned
in this post, until just this contribution, just now. Please
be more careful. Pretty please? :*)
> : On 2 May 1995, The wild man of Borneo wrote:
>
> : > A blaster bolt, like a lasgun is quite simply a laser.
>
> I (as a ST vs SW veteran, the ST side) don't believe that blasters
> are lasers, simply because they travel slower than c.
Precisely. And I would argue in similar fashion re lasguns. I think the
whole point about the Holtzman thing in the book was re *sustained*
lasgun fire; as in *if* the beam continues *after* first contact with
a shielded target, so as to act as a "link" between firer and target.
I see no reason why the firer should be in danger if he shoots in short,
controlled bursts. (As Hicks would say...:*) ) In *that* manner of
handleing, I don't see why *either* weapon would be hazardous to use
on shielded targets, whether we're going by film *or* novel treatment
of the tech. Besides, as I said, the sardaukar don't use bodyshields
in the film at all (and they don't need them either!), and don't
*always* use them in the book. So it's really not that big of an issue
for them.
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Timothy Jones
On 7 May 1995, Adam Cooper wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> [INCIPIT DELETIA]
>
> : > Of course, in some sense we are comparing apples and oranges... the fish
> : > Speakers were not used against enemy armies (there weren't really any in
> : > their time) so much as internal policing, and, indeed, it was their
> : > feminine qualities that made them more effective for this role. With
>
> <snip>
>
> : A feminine police force? Hmm...
> : Did they have any special powers? What were their methods?
> : I need more data...
>
> : > Siaynoq!
>
> : Sorry, I'm not familiar with this one...?
>
> I could explain both of these,
Ah C'mon. [whimper, grovel, whine] It's gonna' be a bit before I
can go find out for myself, ya' know. (It's the middle of the
freggin quarter!)
> but probably the best source is "God Emperor of Dune".
> Read it. Now. :)
Yes...master........yes...my master. [gasp!] Hunh? Wa? Hey!
> It's the best Dune book of the series, IMHO.
I'm in no position to debate the matter of course, but I am aware
that there's some controversey over which is the best book. I have
heard both highly positive and highly negative commentary about GEoD.
Come to think of it, that may well go across the board, but I think
it's a bit more focused where the last three books are concerned --
wouldn't you know it; it *would* be the ones I *haven't* yet read...
Timothy Jones
On 5 May 1995, Daniel Oberes wrote:
> Howabout Thrawn vs. Gurney or Stilgar?
Stilgar is out of the question, PERIOD! But Gurney *may* be outmatched
by Thrawn...or not. I'll let the other DUNE experts decide.
> I still think Shadout Mapes vs. an Ewok would be the best!
That's because you're either not being serious, or are braindead.
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Randy Kaelber
: THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
: BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
: even suggest such a thing. That was just a mistake, plain and simple.
: ...you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
: Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
: Ditka and the stupid frigging Bears won't beat them! They are the
: ultimate warriors. They are *the end* in military strength. And *that*
I gotta disagree at this point. Fish Speakers at the end of Leto II's
reign could lay waste to the Fremen of Muad'Dib's era, though I think it
would be a good fight.
--
Randy Kaelber: kael...@muohio.edu
UIS/DARS Programmer/Analyst, MCIS, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056 USA
http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~rskaelber/homepage.html
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, T. Tran wrote:
>
> : > On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, adam. wrote:
>
> : > The Sardaukars may be fierce but they don't have high tech weapons;
>
> : We don't know that. I'd say lasguns are pretty impressive.
>
> It depends on what you are comparing it with.. phasers(this is irrelevant
> in this conversation, though) and light sabers are much better than lasers.
I agree about phasers. I do *not* agree about lightsabers. I do not
think it's obvious that they will deflect lasgun fire.
> : > I bet Luke would kick Paul's ass.
>
> : I bet you're wrong.
>
> Dunno.., but there can be many Jedis compared to the possible amount of
> kwisats hadaraks...
Yes indeed. Just like there are many Reverend Mothers. It makes
no difference whatsoever. Besides, you're now off-topic. The point
was one-on-one. If you bring in other Jedi, I will bring in the Fremen;
and there's no way in hell you'll convince me they wouldn't positively
mop the desert with the Jedi.
> : Wellllllll he *kinda'* can, just like Yoda kinda' can -- just not as well
> : as a reverend mother, or (of course) the kwisats hadarak [sp?].
>
> : > but he has a
> : > light saber
>
> : Which wouldn't get the chance to be used.
>
> : > (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
> : > explosion like a lasgun would?),
>
> : Doubtfull. It would likely just be blocked, just like a shield
> : is meant to block an energy weapon -- in *both* stroyworlds.
>
> I don't think that a shield couldn't stop a lightsaber, I haven't seen
> anything stopping one..
Sure you have. Namely *other* lightsabers. Energy barriers are "solid,"
in relation to other energy barriers. That's why one can deflect a
blaster bolt with a lightsaber, and why a lightsaber won't go through
certain things, like magnetically-sealed trash compactors, other
lightsabers, and shields.
> : Vader: I find you lack of fai-
>
> : Paul: SILENCE!!!
>
> : Luke or Vader: Arrrggggghhhh!
>
> : Paul: I remember your saber. Now *you'll* remember *mine*!
>
> Ok.., Jedis would propably loose (unless they are in very great numbers),
Not the topic. And they'd *still* loose when Paul called forth the Fremen.
> but how about Jedi masters? (Emperor, Yoda etc.) I don't think that
> Paul could kill them with a word...
Those figures are comparable to the Reverend Mothers. And Paul
could *easily* kill them with a word. There's a reson Paul is
worshiped by thhe Fremen as a god. And it 'aint just propaganda...
As I've explained before, such powers are only a sideline of Jedi
training. But they are the meat-and-potatoes of the Bene Gesseret.
This is their forte. And Paul could bring any one of them to their
knees.
> : discipline and forced spice development, I doubt anyone could
> : resist; not the Hutts, not the Jedi, not even the emperor.
>
> Never underestimate the power of the Dark side (I believe that Paul
> could kill any Jedi master challenging him.., but there were hundreds
> of them once.. even three could beat Paul).
I'm not underestimating a thing. Anyone can be a Jedi, esp if
conditioned from birth. But there's only one kwizats hadarak, and
it took ninety generations of genetic manipulation, a life of
combat training, special tutoring as a male Bene Gesseret, and
forced spice evolution through the water of life to produce him.
No, three Jedi would not in fact beat Paul. Nor would thirty.
Paul would destroy them with a single utterance. And even w/o
his special powers, the weirding module would kill them with one,
perhapse two wide blasts -- witness the desert raids in the film.
And lightsabers would be of no aid in either case.
As for the Dark side, Paul has faced things no Jedi or master
ever dreamed of. Any of them -- Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, Luke,
Ben, Leia (unless Leia had received Benegesseret conditioning) --
would die a horrible death if they tried to take the water of life.
And *that's* what it takes to face the "side" that Paul knows.
> : OTOH,
> : we *know* it's possible to resist the Force just by having a relatively
> : strong mind, or by being a member of a particular race, like the Hutts.
>
> The Force can be used in other ways than trough the mind (Emperor frying
> Luke, DV throwing stuff at him in ESB etc.)
It's impressive for SW. But contrast that with "Through sound and
motion, you will be able to paralyze nerves, shatter bones, set fires,
suffocate an enemy or burst his organs," and it becomes I think
rather less fearsome. I see nothing in the Force that Paul can't counter,
and nothing from Paul that a Jedi *can* counter. No confusion at all.
I'm afraid this one is open-and-shut.
> : I mean this sort of thing is the Bene Gesserit's forte; and Paul
> : was better than *they* were! Sorry to burst your bubble. But I'll
> : put Paul up against *any* foe in the SW universe, anyday!
>
> Is DS a foe? (ok, propably not).. The ST universe seems to have stronger
> foes...
If by "DS," you meant the Deathstar, it's not a *personal* foe.
But still, you raise a valid challenge. I'd say a few house ships
armed with the largescale weirding guns would take it out. And
Paul would see that baby coming a long way ahead...
I'm tempted to say the same thing re Fed ships. But since they have
superior tech over *both* worlds (wih the exception of folding space),
I'm not at all convinced the weirding guns would harm Fed shields.
Add to this the very reasonable assumption that the weirding gun's
weapons fire travels at the speed of sound (since it's a sound weapon),
and it becomes impossible, since a Fed ship's impulse engines would
easily outrun the blast, even at a low normative speed, say 1/4,
which is 1/4c. (Obviously it's not worth going to warp over.)
Heck, even a Fed ship's maneuveering thrusters could likely give
them enough speed to do this.
Again, a good argument. :*)
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Adam Cooper
[INCIPIT DELETIA]
: > Of course, in some sense we are comparing apples and oranges... the fish
: > Speakers were not used against enemy armies (there weren't really any in
: > their time) so much as internal policing, and, indeed, it was their
: > feminine qualities that made them more effective for this role. With
<snip>
: A feminine police force? Hmm...
: Did they have any special powers? What were their methods?
: I need more data...
: > Siaynoq!
: Sorry, I'm not familiar with this one...?
I could explain both of these, but probably the best source is "God
Emperor of Dune". Read it. Now. :) It's the best Dune book of the
series, IMHO.
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> : On 28 Apr 1995, Adam J. Flisser wrote:
>
> : > judging from their aim. Give me six Sardaukar against a legion or two
> : > "Stormtroopers," and it would be a fair fight.
>
> Their aim?
Yes, their aim! You gott'a problem?
> In ANH they are quite accurate..
Not. In *every* encounter -- including the corvet boarding scene --, they
miss more often than not.
> Try to have a Sardaukar trying
> to mortally wound Han or the Droids :) Hopeless
> even from point blank range
Nonsense. You'll notice that sardaukar are both tough *and* effective.
And *noone* has script immunity from them except the Fremen, who have
damn well earned it. The "Stormtrooper Academy of Marksmanship,"
is only for stormtroopers...
Script immunity arguments won't help you.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : On Mon, 1 May 1995, 'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran wrote:
>
> : > On Sun, 30 Apr 1995, Scooter wrote:
> : >
> : > > Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
> : >
> : > Ah, but they don't have laser blasters, just those crummy maula guns
> : > (spring operated!).
>
> : If you think there's controversey over the ST vs SW threads, believe
> : me, you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
> : Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
>
> I would bet on the Jedi in one vs one combat... The Force is very handy,
Not as handy as fighting better than anyone else in the whole
bloody universe! No. I'm sorry, but you're reaching way way WAY
too far with this one. The Fremen are the end.
> but the problem is that there are very few Jedis compared to Fremen..
The "problem" is that Jedi are simply not Fremen. That's all there
is to it.
> -- Ville Lehtonen
> v...@mits.mdata.fi
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : On 1 May 1995, JACOB AMBOS wrote:
>
> : > Distribution:
> : >
> : > Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
> : >
> : > : Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
> : >
> : > Amen. I was waiting for someone to say this. A half dozen Fremen
> : > children could take down whoever finally ends up winning that infernal
> : > Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer thing.
>
> : If you mean the soldiers, I agree of course.
>
> The Redshirts are the ultimate warriors.. never mind the Fremen :)
All I can say to this is you're damn lucky you remembered the smiley.
> : The ships though?
> : Um...how? I mean, we're not talking about air power, sea power,
> : *or* desert power...but space power. Do the words "orbital
> : bombardment" mean anything to you? However, I *am* thinking
> : here really of only the Feds. I think house shielding and rock
> : shielding *would* be adequate defense against the imps, with the
> : sole exception of the DS superLASER. OTOH, a few spaceborn houseships,
> : armed with the large-scale weirding guns, and I'm not very worried
> : at all...
>
> Aren't weirding guns voice weapons? How are you going to use them
> in space?
Yes that had worried mme for a while. *Until* remembered that they
are mind weapons *first*, and sound weapons sedond. They *work*
through sound and motion, but what they actually *do* is, as Paul
put it, "Give form to certain thoughts." Thus, I do not think they
need to actually *make* sound to work. This would go double if
they could fire one from within the atmosphere *into* space at
approaching ships. If you're still not convinced, then I add to this
the considerations of house and rock shielding, which Fed weapons
could penetrate, but imps probably could not. (I'm refering to normal
"day-to-day" weaponery, not the DS superLASER) So in the case of
imp ships, they'd have to make a surmave attack, at which point
the modules would work just fine thanks.
OTOH...
> And the Feds could adapt quite fast.., the Imps couldn't.
This is probably true. Now I don't know if the Feds could develope
anythig to actually counter the weirding way. But then, I would also say
they probably don't need to, as they could simply out run it. And
they *wouldn't* be compelled to make a surface strike...
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> : : > Scooter (sco...@helix.net) wrote:
> : : >
> : : Fremen are the superior fighters in any case. No contest.
>
> This depends on what you count in as fighters..
> They could beat any soldiers (the Borg would be impossible to kill from
> long range, though..
Even the Borg would not be able to adapt to the weirding way.
Theu are a tech-based race. Weirding modules give form to
*thoughts*. They are not just a sonic blast, easily blocked out.
Nay, but a mental attack, based on metaphysical principals the
Borg could never comprehend.
> Then there are few exceptions.. these are not fighters but could kill
> Fremen easily:
> 1. Qs (ok, even one could kill them all)
Not if Paul's around. For he has conqured gods before...
> 2. Jedis
Never. This one's already been beaten to death. Sufficed to say,
the Jedi would perish in minutes, esp if the Fremen were mounted.
> 3. Paul (Kwizats haderak or something like that)
But he *is* a Fremen! Kinda' redundant, no?
> 4. Reverend mothers
Not necessarially. Remember, Stilgar killes the RM Helen Moheam [sp?]
in I think the second book -- it's been awhile since I read it.
The Bene Gesseret are not warriors, and even Jessica remarked how
simple it was to subdue them. They have Voice, but would they
get the chance to use it? Anyway, the focus of comparason is
supposed to be re DUNE icaon vs non-DUNE icons, not internal considerations.
TSB
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
> Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
> : On Wed, 3 May 1995, Simon H. Lee wrote:
>
> : > Somehow, I think a Guild Heighliner's ability to basically pop
> : > up anywhere in the span of a few seconds puts it far ahead of the entire
> : > warp vs. hyperspace debate,
>
> : True. But then, I never tried to compare either to DUNE. That's a special
> : brand of tom-foolery, reserved for certain extremeists on r.a.s.s.
> : I only intercede to defend the truth when it's challenged. There is little
> : from either universe that I'd put on a par with DUNE.
>
> You're forgetting Q.., he could beat anything in _any_ universe...
I don't agree. Paul had to conquer a god to become the kwizats hadarak.
He could do so again...
At the very least, I'd say it's by no means obvious.
> : > but I don't even speculate anymore about how it really works.
>
> : How what works, exactly? If you mean, how folding space works, the idea
> : is really quite simple. Instead of moving through space, you hold still,
> : and the rest of the cosmos shifts. A close analogy would be to lay
>
> This sound quite like fast wormholes in ST, or Lt. Barclays nice invention
> when he was super-intelligent...
Well I'd agree the *second* analogy does, yes.
But a wormhole is still something you move through. Folding space
is different. You don't move at all. Everything else does.
THETA SIGMA BAAWA
Michael O. Akinde
> THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
> BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
What about Noghri? :)
Regards,
Michael.
------------------------
Veni, Vidi, Vici - Caesar.
Stra...@kom.auc.dk
WWW: http://www-i8.auc.dk/~strategy/
Timothy Jones
On 7 May 1995, Michael O. Akinde wrote:
> In article <Pine.A32.3.91i.95050...@homer13.u.washington.edu>, Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> writes:
> > THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
> > BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
>
> What about Noghri? :)
I'm glad you remembered the smiley. :*/
> Regards,
>
> Michael.
> ------------------------
> Veni, Vidi, Vici - Caesar.
> Stra...@kom.auc.dk
> WWW: http://www-i8.auc.dk/~strategy/
Salutations,
Timothy
Timothy Jones
On 6 May 1995, Randy Kaelber wrote:
> : Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
> : BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
> : even suggest such a thing. That was just a mistake, plain and simple.
>
> : ...you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
> : Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
> : Ditka and the stupid frigging Bears won't beat them! They are the
> : ultimate warriors. They are *the end* in military strength. And *that*
>
> I gotta disagree at this point. Fish Speakers at the end of Leto II's
> reign
Who I'm told are *also* Fremen, making this point redundant.
Besides, the point was that nothing non-DUNE will ever match
the Fremen. That remains unchallenged.
> could lay waste to the Fremen of Muad'Dib's era, though I think it
> would be a good fight.
And let's also remember the FSs are supposed to be like a police force,
not an army -- so I'm told. That means the Fremen may well be superior
in an open war. BTW, it may well also be a question of numbers: how many
of each are there?
TSB
"He shall know your ways, as if born to them..."
John P. Raynor
: And let's also remember the FSs are supposed to be like a police force,
: not an army -- so I'm told. That means the Fremen may well be superior
: in an open war. BTW, it may well also be a question of numbers: how many
: of each are there?
I'm afraid that this is absolutely wrong. At one point in "God Emperor
of Dune," Duncan Idaho tells Leto that he thinks that the Fish Speakers
are a police force, rather than a proper army. Leto gets very upset with
Idaho, and replies that they ARE an army, because in his opinion, police
forces always become corrupt, by abusing their authority and preying upon
crime, rather than trying to eradicate it.
It's not exactly clear what the population of Arrakis was prior to the
Jihad, but Hawat does discuss the "real" Fremen population at some point
with Baron Harkonnen, and suggests that there probably several million of
them - in short, far more than the Imperium suspected, but probably not very
many relative to the Fish Speakers.
- J. Raynor
Cabbage
: On 6 May 1995, Ville Lehtonen wrote:
: > You're forgetting Q.., he could beat anything in _any_ universe...
: I don't agree. Paul had to conquer a god to become the kwizats hadarak.
: He could do so again...
: At the very least, I'd say it's by no means obvious.
Hmmm, don't think you've thought too hard about this one.
Q is _omnipotent_. Like, has the power to do anything at all.
Paul, for all that he's a much more interesting character, is not.
He wanted, really really wanted, to not have the Fremen Jihad occur, but
there was nothing he could see in any future that would avoid it, he
could not hinder the unconscious desire of humanity to renew itself,
merely direct it.
Think a little thing like that would bother Q?
Think again. Hell, if he wanted, he could just win a contest with Paul
just by changing Paul so he didn't want to win anymore.
All-powerful vs terribly-powerful can only have one result, and if you
think terribly powerful wins (Paul), then you simply don't understand
what omnipotence means.
--
********************************
* Ralph Jenkin * "Corruption wears infinite disguises"
* cab...@ironbark.ucnv.edu.au * -Tleilaxu Thu-zen
* i93...@redgum.ucnv.edu.au *
********************************
Matthias Paschke
How about this:
A duell of several hundrets of jedi against ONE Leto II!
Adam Cooper
: Timothy Jones (time...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: : And let's also remember the FSs are supposed to be like a police force,
: : not an army -- so I'm told. That means the Fremen may well be superior
: : in an open war. BTW, it may well also be a question of numbers: how many
: : of each are there?
: I'm afraid that this is absolutely wrong. At one point in "God Emperor
: of Dune," Duncan Idaho tells Leto that he thinks that the Fish Speakers
: are a police force, rather than a proper army. Leto gets very upset with
: Idaho, and replies that they ARE an army, because in his opinion, police
: forces always become corrupt, by abusing their authority and preying upon
: crime, rather than trying to eradicate it.
I just looked through _GEoD_ and you are correct. I believe I am the one
who initially misremembered this.
Tarath
> A duel of several hundreds of jedi against ONE Leto II!
Believe it or not, the Jedi would eventually win! Leto II would easily
swat two, maybe three hundred Jedi by just rolling over them , but then
his sandtrout-part would want to join with the water in all the blood
splattered about, and that would be his undoing....
....sheesh....this is getting as bad as the ST vs. SW conflicts :)
Yes, I do indeed have a name.
> stromtroopers! Man , I never would have thought even SWers could be
> so pig-head stupid, appogant, and just plain wrong! Dude, haven't
> you noticed that everyone's been walking on eggshells re the Fremen?
> Even my most stark opponents in the ST vs SW threads have been laying
> low where they're concerned. You should just stop and back pedel *now*
> while you're still able to show your face! Mark my words, if you start
> down the road you're on, you're going to be a laughing stock.
> BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
> even suggest such a thing. That was just a mistake, plain and simple.
> Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
> Ditka and the stupid frigging Bears won't beat them! They are the
> ultimate warriors. They are *the end* in military strength. And *that*
> One cannot go against his word...
>
> Mahada!
Just a few words for ya. Jem'Hadar. And even worse, Borg. No question, the
Borg would run right over em. Hell, they wouldn't even bother w/ that, just
assimalate 'em! :*)
--
LAUNCELOT: Look, my liege!
ARTHUR: Camelot!
GALAHAD: Camelot!
PATSY: It's only a model.
'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran
> > But, the imperial guards get to use high tech weapons,
>
> Like what? All I see are blasters and other tech trinkets, which
> are matched by sardaukar lasguns and hunter-seekers. Besides which,
> there's no clear indication that blasters and other SW weapons will
> penetrate the terror troops' environment suits. True, there's no
> definite indication that they won't, but we've seen that stromtrooper
> armor won't stop blaster bolts, but sardaukar suits *do* at least
> deter weapon attacks. So it comes down to two questions: 1) Which
> has better protection, and/or 2) Which has more powerfull weaponery.
> If either one of these can be determined, the other will be at least
> partially explained.
Okay, but besides the lasguns, they only have knives where as the
stormtroopers have a large arsenal of blaster weapons and heavy blasters.
Don't tell me a bunch of lasguns is going to cutdown imperial AT-AT
walkers (those 4-legged things in Empire Strikes Back). We've seen the
low-tech aspect of dune-weaponry (my argument on that later) so pitting
lasguns against Sardaukar armor (which the books do not mention as I
recall) isn't any indication of their power.
> > and they have some force training. >
> Do they now? I thought *that* was for the priests and secret order
> members only.
I wasn't talking about your run-of-the-mill stormtroopers but the
imperial guards (the guys in red in Return of the Jedi) those sticks
they're carrying are force lances.
> > The Sardaukars may be fierce but they don't have high tech weapons;
>
> We don't know that. I'd say lasguns are pretty impressive.
But, that's the most destructive weapons they have. I mean, they don't
even use atomics (they're forbidden by the conventions to use it against
humans, I think). It would be logical for them to bring in the most
destructive weapons they have if they were fighting Paul, right? So, this
must mean, by my twisted logic, that lasguns are their most powerful
weapon.
> > > the Butlerian jihad took care of that. >
> No. The Butlerian jihad took care of droids and the like, which is why
> they have mentats instead. It was technology *IN THE FORM OF A MAN*
> that was revolted against and outlawed -- not advanced tech of any kind,
> fullstop. Let's not throw the worm out with the sand. :*)
Okay, here's my argument for the essential low-tech nature of Dune
weaponry. If you read the glossary in the back, it's pretty obvious that
the kind of weaponries available are either low, low tech, like the
spring-operated maula pistols, or semi-high tech, meaning they make use
of high technology but in a low-tech way. By this I mean they don't have
a variety of the same weapon. Take lasguns for instance, you don't see
ship based lasguns or tankbased lasguns, only hand-held lasguns.
Whereas the SW universe has their blasters on as diverse places as Star
Destroyer turbolasers, AT-AT Walker lasers, right down to Han Solo's
heavy hand blaster.
My reading of the Butlerian Jihad is that they went too far, not
only destroying all the droid technology but most of the high-tech stuff
with it. This is why only Ix is left with high tech capabilities
(they're a bunch of rebels or something, I don't know). So, yes, they
did throw the worm out with the sand. :)
My final argument is that we do not see any weapon in Dune with
the capability of destroying an entire planet like the Death Star.
Notice that in Chapter House: Dune (was it?) they razed the surface of
Dune but did not destroy it. I would argue that they couldn't since
their intention was to destroy the planet. Anyway, the whole novelty of
Dune is that human beings didn't rely on their technology as much as
their mind and skills, which is what makes the Sardaukar so deadly (not
heavy weapons).
> > but he has a
> > light saber
>
> Which wouldn't get the chance to be used.
Why not? You think a crysknife will block a lightsaber?
>
> > (if a light saber touches a shield, does it create an atomic
> > explosion like a lasgun would?),
>
> Doubtfull. It would likely just be blocked, just like a shield
> is meant to block energy weapon -- in *both* stroyworlds.
>
> > and he's got the Force! haha
>
> And Paul can kill with a word! Mahada!
>
You crazy nut, I'm talking about the book here! :) The movie is just
taking creative liberties with the book so the Voice is used mostly to
do a hypno-trick on people to get them to do what you want. It isn't, as
I remember, a powerful weapon but a subtle one. This subtlety is one of
the things that makes Dune such a great book, in my opinion.
> > Oh and
BTW, if you're thinking you can block the weirding way
with > a lightsaber, *OR* block the Voice of even a mundane Bene Gesseret
> with the Force, you'd better think again. The weirding moduel is
> a sound weapon, not an energy weapon, and is in any case frequently
> used in area-effect attacks as well as "bolt" shots. As for Force
> resistance of the Voice, noone but Paul has proven to be absolutely
> immune to it *no matter what*. If it's done properly, with proper
> discipline and forced spice development, I doubt anyone could
> resist; not the Hutts, not the Jedi, not even the emperor. OTOH,
> we *know* it's possible to resist the Force just by having a relatively
> strong mind, or by being a member of a particular race, like the Hutts.
> I mean this sort of thing is the Bene Gesserit's forte; and Paul
> was better than *they* were! Sorry to burst your bubble. But I'll
> put Paul up against *any* foe in the SW universe, anyday!
>
> Mahada!
>
Baba yaga to you too, but the Voice wasn't such a big deal in the book.
This weirding module thing is just plain weird. Paul won against the
Emperor because of his strategies, tactics, and the fighting skills of
the Fremen, not the power of their weapons! In Dune, the mind is all
powerful while raw power is not so respected. Witness the defeat of the
Emperor by an upstart planetbound Duke! That is power.
You really dig the movie huh? Maybe you can explain what those clunky
black leather (or should I have said, "kinky?") Saurdaukar suits are. Why
do they need the green gas? And why does one of them die when his
faceplate is cracked by Duncan?
/------\ /--------------------------\
/ \ / \
| | ^ ^ | | | Die Capitalist PIGS! |
| | - O | | | Today's PIG is tomorrow's |
| | | | | BACON! |
| | _{}_ | | \ /
| || || | \--------------------------/
| ||_/\_|| | /
| | ! ! | | ------/
| |\ /| |
| | | | | | Tu-Uyen Tran
| | ---- | | dog...@u.washington.edu
'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran
> Oh pah-leeze! Are you *seriously* gonna' try and take on Fremen with
> stromtroopers! Man , I never would have thought even SWers could be
> so pig-head stupid, appogant, and just plain wrong! Dude, haven't
> you noticed that everyone's been walking on eggshells re the Fremen?
> Even my most stark opponents in the ST vs SW threads have been laying
> low where they're concerned. You should just stop and back pedel *now*
> while you're still able to show your face! Mark my words, if you start
> down the road you're on, you're going to be a laughing stock.
> THERE IS NO WAY IN *HELL* THAT THE FREMEN WILL EVER BE OVERCOME
> BY *ANYTHIG* ELSE IN *EITHER* STROYWORLD! Period. You should never
> even suggest such a thing. That was just a mistake, plain and simple.
> If you think there's controversey over the ST vs SW threads, believe
> me, you *don't* want to start blathering foolishness about the Fremen.
> Troopers won't beat them. Jedi won't beat them. Sardaukar won't beat them.
> Ditka and the stupid frigging Bears won't beat them! They are the
> ultimate warriors. They are *the end* in military strength. And *that*
> is all she wrote. Shai'Halud [sp?] created Arrakis to train the faithfull.
> One cannot go against his word...
>
Hey, no name-calling here! Let's not underestimate Jedi training here!
Their training, while it is not completely comparable to Paul's, is quite
rigorous. I mean lifting 20 ton spaceships with your mind and standing on
one hand while stacking three rocks and lifing a droid, while supporting
a green muppet on your feet? I haven't seen Paul pull off feats like
that! And if Paul can't do it, what makes you think the Fremen can? So there!
'MR. BIGHEAD' T. Tran
> sole exception of the DS superLASER. OTOH, a few spaceborn houseships,
> armed with the large-scale weirding guns, and I'm not very worried
> at all...
>
Cut it out with the weirding stuff! You can't shoot sound in a vacuum!