[COMIC] EnsViews: SOTE Evolution #3
Paul Ens
TITLE: Shadows of the Empire: Evolution #3
WRITER: Steve Perry
PENCILLER: Ron Randall
INKER: Tom Simmons
COLORS: Dave Nestelle
EDITOR: Bob Cooper and Peet Janes
STORY:
This issue contains more dialog than the previous two issues combined. This is
a mixed blessing. The added dialog definitely makes these characters seem
deeper than they have until now. All of the new characters are now
convincingly sleazy. On the other hand, with the exception of 3P0's "Being
blown up is NOT my primary function" line Steve Perry's attempts at adding
humor to the title are forced and painful at best. (I don't think newly Jedi
Luke Skywalker would make cheap jokes about Han being stupid.)
We're finally being shown what the characters are like, rather than just being
told. We really needed to see examples of Guri's killing proficiency before
they're taken away. (Granted, I'd have complained if the title was nothing but
her killing...) Kar Yang and Savan also receive some much needed competence.
I've criticized Evolution in the past for using movie characters as props in
flashback sequences. They come to life in this issue and while I don't find
their characterizations to be all that convincing, at least their presence in
the story makes sense.
ART:
The overall high quality pencils and colors continue, with nice attention to
detail throughout. Randall's Mark Hamill is my only minor complaint. This book
has a great look!
A note in the lettercol explains that the cover design is "an attempt to get
away from the 'movie poster' cover paintings". While I continue to dislike the
design, I'll applaud any effort to mix things up.
CONCLUSIONS:
The art remains good and the story is improving.
7.5/10. Recommended.
Comments?
=====================================================
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Ian Roney
Paul Ens wrote:
(snip)
> On the other hand, with the exception of 3P0's "Being
> blown up is NOT my primary function" line Steve Perry's attempts at adding
> humor to the title are forced and painful at best. (I don't think newly Jedi
> Luke Skywalker would make cheap jokes about Han being stupid.)
Boy, it's been a long time since I've posted here. Anyway...3PO's
comments kinda rolled over me. I guess it was almost obligatory for the
usual repartee between them, but it wasn't good or bad enough to catch
my attention. (The exchange at the beginning of SOTE #1 was much
better.)
> We're finally being shown what the characters are like, rather than just being
> told. We really needed to see examples of Guri's killing proficiency before
> they're taken away. (Granted, I'd have complained if the title was nothing but
> her killing...) Kar Yang and Savan also receive some much needed competence.
She managed to take out Yang pretty quickly, though that is to be
expected. I also liked the blood dripping frome her hand. Yang never
struck me as a particularly good villain anyway - but he is light years
ahead of 'Carnor Jax'. Xizor's niece is more interesting.
> ART:
> The overall high quality pencils and colors continue, with nice attention to
> detail throughout. Randall's Mark Hamill is my only minor complaint. This book
> has a great look!
Overall it is pretty good. (Note that Coruscant is shown to have a large
amount of ocean in its illustrations, which contradicts every other
description/illustration except for K-Mac's).
The character design is obviously Randall's strength, but Guri seems to
have had her ,ah, *attributes* enhanced between series.
> A note in the lettercol explains that the cover design is "an attempt to get
> away from the 'movie poster' cover paintings". While I continue to dislike the
> design, I'll applaud any effort to mix things up.
Let's get back to the movie posters, please. I liked Fegredo's covers in
Tales comics, but I'm not too hot on the stars.
> CONCLUSIONS:
> The art remains good and the story is improving.
> 7.5/10. Recommended.
Ditto. I thought that I would be buying this series because I am a
completist, but it is picking up. Unlike, say, Crimson Empire.
> Comments?
Yes.
Ian
policraticus
but it is picking up. Unlike, say, Crimson Empire.> Comments?
Long waffle:
Hmm. I think CE is picking up nicely with 3, 4, and 5 (try and read Jax with a Vader voice. owch!). I hated CE #1. I bought Evolution 1 and 2, I didn't even buy #3.... What's the point of establishing Yang and killing him off? Evolution's a very good idea with nowhere to go, and one good character who can't hold down six comics - but it would have been a great I, Jedi style novel. CE has, Dorman covers, improving art (even if Mirith Sinn's a Jade clone with an iffy costume) and a sequel in the works that could learn by its mistakes. And it basically ignores most of the rest of the non-film continuity. (have a look at #5, p.5 if you don't believe me). Brave, and I think, better than everyone says it is.
I can't be alone in this!
Policrat'
OtterPop 1
On Sat, May 2, 1998 00:23 EDT, policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
(Crimson Empire spoiler)
>CE has, Dorman covers, improving art
>(even if Mirith Sinn's a Jade clone with an iffy costume)
>and a sequel in the works that could learn by its
>mistakes. And it basically ignores most of the rest
>of the non-film continuity. (have a look at #5, p.5 if
>you don't believe me).
I assume you're referring to the appearance of the SSD Lusankya, commanded by
Wedge, with two big New Republic insignia painted on it (kind of nifty, I
thought). But does this really "ignore the non-film continuity"? The NR
captured the Lusankya in THE BACTA WAR, remember, and they would have had a
couple years to fix it up and get it into fighting trim.
Dan
policraticus
That's not what I'm referring to, btw. Obviously, without The Bacta War, there would be no Lusankya at all. I didn't want to be obtuse, but:
(a) The Rogues aren't in B- and E-wings in Specter of the Past
(b) According to Shield of Lies, the Lusankya was scrapped
before being repared:
"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair or make a
museum piece of the sole SSD captured from the Empire." (p.323).
(c) And what is Wedge doing in charge of an SSD. Shouldn't he be reparing Coruscant?
Most importantly, none of the CE plot-points are ever taken up again.
In short, there is a great big hole in continuity.
Then again, what's wrong with that. IMHO, CE's a great story.
Policrat'
PS - added bonus! According to CE, all the Guard bar Jax and Kanos were killed after Empire's End. But Grodin Tierce shows up in Specter of the Past in a manner that to all intents ignores the entire Dark Empire/Empire's End/Crimson Empire storyline.
In short, the entire novel and comic continuity is self-destructing like a battlemoon with a pair of proton torpedoes up its ventilation shoot.
fr...@pathcom.com
In article <199805042040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>#1/1,
otte...@aol.com (OtterPop 1) wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 2, 1998 00:23 EDT, policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> (Crimson Empire spoiler)
>
> >CE has, Dorman covers, improving art
> >(even if Mirith Sinn's a Jade clone with an iffy costume)
> >and a sequel in the works that could learn by its
> >mistakes. And it basically ignores most of the rest
> >of the non-film continuity. (have a look at #5, p.5 if
> >you don't believe me).
>
> I assume you're referring to the appearance of the SSD Lusankya, commanded
by
> Wedge, with two big New Republic insignia painted on it (kind of nifty, I
> thought). But does this really "ignore the non-film continuity"? The NR
> captured the Lusankya in THE BACTA WAR, remember, and they would have had a
> couple years to fix it up and get it into fighting trim.
>
>
Just on the issue of the whole "Wedge commanding the Lusankya" thing though, I
find it a bit hard to swallow that he would take command of a ship that has a
history of being a place of torture where the empire would bend people to
their will, even if it is totally refitted by the alliance to no longer surve
its original purpose. But thats just IMMHO
Sabrina
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
policraticus
fr...@pathcom.com wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
SPACE...
Just on the issue of the whole "Wedge commanding the Lusankya" thing though, I
find it a bit hard to swallow that he would take command of a ship that has a
history of being a place of torture where the empire would bend people to
their will, even if it is totally refitted by the alliance to no longer surve
its original purpose. But thats just IMMHO
Fair enough. But it is by far the most powerful ship in the fleet,
and (at least on Earth) there is a long history of refitting or otherwise
using emotionally symbolic wrecks. After Pearl Harbour, I believe, the
US Navy raised and refitted all but one of the Pacific Fleet battleships.
No-one stopped a businessman raising the scuttled German fleet in Scapa
Flow between the Wars. No-one has objected to James Cameron filming the
Titanic - a mass grave. To be fair, the Royal Oak, a British
battleship sunk by a U-boat (in Scapa Flow again) in WW2 is supposed to
be off-limits, but that's about the only example I can think of.
Personally, I liked seeing the Lusyanka in
Crimson Empire. The symbol of oppression has been turned into a
symbol of hope, with those big NR symbols (someone in another thread called
them "cheesy") giving a fairly unequivocal message to the Empire: the NR
may not be tyrants, but they aren't afraid to use SSD-scale force.
Policrat'
Speculator
>OtterPop 1 wrote:
>> (Crimson Empire spoiler)
Also a "Bacta War" spoiler, thankyouverymuch!
>> On Sat, May 2, 1998 00:23 EDT, policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >CE has, Dorman covers, improving art
>> >(even if Mirith Sinn's a Jade clone with an iffy costume)
>> >and a sequel in the works that could learn by its
>> >mistakes. And it basically ignores most of the rest
>> >of the non-film continuity. (have a look at #5, p.5 if
>> >you don't believe me).
>>
>> I assume you're referring to the appearance of the SSD Lusankya, commanded by
>> Wedge, with two big New Republic insignia painted on it (kind of nifty, I
>> thought). But does this really "ignore the non-film continuity"? The NR
>> captured the Lusankya in THE BACTA WAR, remember, and they would have had a
>> couple years to fix it up and get it into fighting trim.
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>That's not what I'm referring to, btw. Obviously, without The Bacta War, there
>would be no Lusankya at all. I didn't want to be obtuse, but:
>(a) The Rogues aren't in B- and E-wings in Specter of the Past
Something that struck me as odd, too ...
>(b) According to Shield of Lies, the Lusankya was scrapped before being repared:
>"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair or make a museum piece
>of the sole SSD captured from the Empire." (p.323).
IIRC "Shield of Lies" takes place several years after Crimson Empire -
certainly enough time for the politicians to have taken over from the
military and scrapped the SSD ...
>(c) And what is Wedge doing in charge of an SSD. Shouldn't he be reparing
>Coruscant?
Why?
He's the cutting edge of the New Republic Navy - he and the Rogues
always go where the front line is.
Until KJA started writing, anyway :)
>Most importantly, none of the CE plot-points are ever taken up again.
We're only at issue #5 of #6, and there may be a sequel - I'm sure all
the loose ends will be tied up.
>In short, there is a great big hole in continuity.
Nope, not really.
Tho I do wonder - Yinchorr wasn't depopulated until AFTER ESB, so how
long could it have been the Royal Guards' training ground for?
OTOH, they only needed a small region of one continent, and the Royal
Guard were still being trained there by the time of the Dark Empire
stories ...
>Then again, what's wrong with that. IMHO, CE's a great story.
>Policrat'
>PS - added bonus! According to CE, all the Guard bar Jax and Kanos were killed
>after Empire's End. But Grodin Tierce shows up in Specter of the Past in a manner
>that to all intents ignores the entire Dark Empire/Empire's End/Crimson Empire
>storyline.
Haven't read that one yet.
>In short, the entire novel and comic continuity is self-destructing like a
>battlemoon with a pair of proton torpedoes up its ventilation shoot.
I think you're overstating your case somehow.
also, is there anything you can do about the irritating HTML that
repeats everything you say in your post?
mtfbwy,
Speculator.
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policraticus
> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the greatdiscounts at the
> ORB while you wrote:
No.
> >That's not what I'm referring to, btw. Obviously, without The Bacta War, there
> >would be no Lusankya at all. I didn't want to be obtuse, but:
>
> >(a) The Rogues aren't in B- and E-wings in Specter of the Past
>
> Something that struck me as odd, too ...
>
> >(b) According to Shield of Lies, the Lusankya was scrapped before being repared:
> >"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair or make a museum piece
> >of the sole SSD captured from the Empire." (p.323).
>
> IIRC "Shield of Lies" takes place several years after Crimson Empire -
> certainly enough time for the politicians to have taken over from the
> military and scrapped the SSD ...
"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair." In other words, before Leia
became Chief of State - a few months after CE - and without reparing the Lusankya. Now
unless someone's going to wreck it again, which would be silly....
> >(c) And what is Wedge doing in charge of an SSD. Shouldn't he be reparing
> >Coruscant?
>
> Why?
>
> He's the cutting edge of the New Republic Navy - he and the Rogues
> always go where the front line is.
Yes, but it's always been implied - (eg, last few lines of I Jedi, p.32) that Wedge
went straight from the Rogues (or that mess in Dark Empire) to rebuilding Coruscant.
> Until KJA started writing, anyway :)
True :-)
> >Most importantly, none of the CE plot-points are ever taken up again.
>
> We're only at issue #5 of #6, and there may be a sequel - I'm sure all
> the loose ends will be tied up.
>
> >In short, there is a great big hole in continuity.
>
> Nope, not really.
What. So the Lusyanka saves the day again - and is damaged beyond repair - and they
rogues get reasigned to X-wings and Wedge goes off to rebuild a planet, and we find
out what Grodin Tierce was doing during Dark Empire.... You want me to go on?
> Tho I do wonder - Yinchorr wasn't depopulated until AFTER ESB, so how
> long could it have been the Royal Guards' training ground for?
I think Stradley basically ditched the timeline of The Alderaan Factor, but kept
Wessel and Yinchorr. I doubt the General would have survived letting Leia out of his
grasp. [is that a spoiler for a comic published 15 years ago?]
> OTOH, they only needed a small region of one continent, and the Royal
> Guard were still being trained there by the time of the Dark Empire
> stories ...
Not what it says in CE :-)
> >PS - added bonus! According to CE, all the Guard bar Jax and Kanos were killed
> >after Empire's End. But Grodin Tierce shows up in Specter of the Past in a manner
> >that to all intents ignores the entire Dark Empire/Empire's End/Crimson Empire
> >storyline.
>
> Haven't read that one yet.
Do. It's one of the best SW novels yet.
> >In short, the entire novel and comic continuity is self-destructing like a
> >battlemoon with a pair of proton torpedoes up its ventilation shoot.
>
> I think you're overstating your case somehow.
Do you really want me to send the entire "Where continuity and cannon get tangled up
like a Bantha with dreadlocks and a perm" list?
> also, is there anything you can do about the irritating HTML that
> repeats everything you say in your post?
It does? I'll try and sort it.
Now don't get me wrong. I like the SW universe messy like this.
Policrat'
Speculator
>> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the greatdiscounts at the
>> ORB while you wrote:
>No.
Oh.
Well, maybe ya oughta.
>> >That's not what I'm referring to, btw. Obviously, without The Bacta War, there
>> >would be no Lusankya at all. I didn't want to be obtuse, but:
>>
>> >(a) The Rogues aren't in B- and E-wings in Specter of the Past
>>
>> Something that struck me as odd, too ...
>>
>> >(b) According to Shield of Lies, the Lusankya was scrapped before being repared:
>> >"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair or make a museum piece
>> >of the sole SSD captured from the Empire." (p.323).
>>
>> IIRC "Shield of Lies" takes place several years after Crimson Empire -
>> certainly enough time for the politicians to have taken over from the
>> military and scrapped the SSD ...
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>"Mon Mothma had given orders to scrap rather than repair." In other words, before Leia
>became Chief of State - a few months after CE - and without reparing the Lusankya. Now
>unless someone's going to wreck it again, which would be silly....
So it wasn't repaired.
They started to dismantle its interior fittings - hey, it's a HUGE
ship, that could take forever -when suddenly it's required for one
last mission.
Hell, in CE all that's operational is the engines and the bridge - and
POSSIBLY one fighter bay for the Rogues to launch from.
>> >(c) And what is Wedge doing in charge of an SSD. Shouldn't he be reparing
>> >Coruscant?
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> He's the cutting edge of the New Republic Navy - he and the Rogues
>> always go where the front line is.
>Yes, but it's always been implied - (eg, last few lines of I Jedi, p.32) that Wedge
>went straight from the Rogues (or that mess in Dark Empire) to rebuilding Coruscant.
But he IS with the Rogues.
He's the highest-ranking New Rep officer present, so he's commanding
from the Cap Ship and not "leading from the front" in an x-wing - but
he is STILL the Navy officer in direct command of the Rogues.
>> Until KJA started writing, anyway :)
>True :-)
Someday I gotta read JA3 again - I'd better get good and drunk firstv
tho! :)
>> >Most importantly, none of the CE plot-points are ever taken up again.
>>
>> We're only at issue #5 of #6, and there may be a sequel - I'm sure all
>> the loose ends will be tied up.
>>
>> >In short, there is a great big hole in continuity.
>>
>> Nope, not really.
>What. So the Lusyanka saves the day again - and is damaged beyond repair - and they
>rogues get reasigned to X-wings and Wedge goes off to rebuild a planet, and we find
>out what Grodin Tierce was doing during Dark Empire.... You want me to go on?
[1] the Rebs look like they launched a pretty clumsy last-ditch effort
when they sent out Wedge, the Rogues and the Lusyanka.
It looks to me like that's all they had to spare - one fighter
squadron and a scrappile SSD.
[2] Maybe there are clues in the next Zahn book about Tierce ...
>> Tho I do wonder - Yinchorr wasn't depopulated until AFTER ESB, so how
>> long could it have been the Royal Guards' training ground for?
>I think Stradley basically ditched the timeline of The Alderaan Factor, but kept
>Wessel and Yinchorr. I doubt the General would have survived letting Leia out of his
>grasp. [is that a spoiler for a comic published 15 years ago?]
Maybe Wessel didn't tell anyone he almost had her! Hell, would you?
>> OTOH, they only needed a small region of one continent, and the Royal
>> Guard were still being trained there by the time of the Dark Empire
>> stories ...
>Not what it says in CE :-)
Well, Jax and Karnos graduated pre-ANH - but the base wasn't shut down
until after Jax betrayed Palpy in DE3!
IMHO there was ALWAYS an Imp training base on Yinchorr, but the
depopulation either didn't occur until after the Marvel story, or was
limited to the continent with the training base.
>> >PS - added bonus! According to CE, all the Guard bar Jax and Kanos were killed
>> >after Empire's End. But Grodin Tierce shows up in Specter of the Past in a manner
>> >that to all intents ignores the entire Dark Empire/Empire's End/Crimson Empire
>> >storyline.
>>
>> Haven't read that one yet.
>Do. It's one of the best SW novels yet.
I've been trying to get it out of the library, but the guy who has
it's got an extension on it, and someone else has it reserved. :-(
>> >In short, the entire novel and comic continuity is self-destructing like a
>> >battlemoon with a pair of proton torpedoes up its ventilation shoot.
>>
>> I think you're overstating your case somehow.
>Do you really want me to send the entire "Where continuity and cannon get tangled up
>like a Bantha with dreadlocks and a perm" list?
because Wedge and Co grabbed the greatest firepower they could find [a
scrap-pile SSD and a few heavy fighters] in a last-ditch mission?
And really, it's not like that one tiny insignificant comic series
will have any real effect on the overall continuity of the SW
universe.
>> also, is there anything you can do about the irritating HTML that
>> repeats everything you say in your post?
>It does? I'll try and sort it.
Thanks, it's appreciated.
>Now don't get me wrong. I like the SW universe messy like this.
Oh.
Sorry to have straightened it out for ya! :)
policraticus
Speculator wrote:
> >> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the greatdiscounts at the
> >> ORB while you wrote:
>
> >No.
>
> Oh.
>
> Well, maybe ya oughta.
I will. Just for you. Except I can't get through on your links.
> So it wasn't repaired.
>
> They started to dismantle its interior fittings - hey, it's a HUGE
> ship, that could take forever -when suddenly it's required for one
> last mission.
>
> Hell, in CE all that's operational is the engines and the bridge - and
> POSSIBLY one fighter bay for the Rogues to launch from.
So they just bluff the Imperials into surrender? And painted massive NR logos on the
bridge? And stuck a new bow on? Remember, at least 1/8 of the bow had been blasted away by
the end of The Bacta War. (pp.326, 321), and the ship was hardly spaceworthy. No, the ship
has to have been repaired, no matter what.
> He's the highest-ranking New Rep officer present, so he's commanding
> from the Cap Ship and not "leading from the front" in an x-wing - but
> he is STILL the Navy officer in direct command of the Rogues.
True. Dark Empire excepted.
> [1] the Rebs look like they launched a pretty clumsy last-ditch effort
> when they sent out Wedge, the Rogues and the Lusyanka.
> It looks to me like that's all they had to spare - one fighter
> squadron and a scrappile SSD.
Rogue Squadron and the largest ship in the Galaxy.
> [2] Maybe there are clues in the next Zahn book about Tierce ...
I doubt, it. I think he's one of several cocks of the snook at the utter mess that ist the
post-TLC continuity.
> Well, Jax and Karnos graduated pre-ANH - but the base wasn't shut down
> until after Jax betrayed Palpy in DE3!
>
> IMHO there was ALWAYS an Imp training base on Yinchorr, but the
> depopulation either didn't occur until after the Marvel story, or was
> limited to the continent with the training base.
Tenuous. So they just blitz part of the planet, and leave the rest full of bloody-minded
natives? And if so, why didn't Wessel call out the Guard (:-) when he found out about Leia?
> I've been trying to get it out of the library, but the guy who has
> it's got an extension on it, and someone else has it reserved. :-(
did you consider the greatdiscounts at the ORB :-)
> And really, it's not like that one tiny insignificant comic series
> will have any real effect on the overall continuity of the SW
> universe.
No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
> >Now don't get me wrong. I like the SW universe messy like this.
>
> Oh.
>
> Sorry to have straightened it out for ya! :)
mercifully unconvinced,
Policrat'
Speculator
>> >> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the greatdiscounts at the
>> >> ORB while you wrote:
>> >No.
>Speculator wrote:
>> Oh.
>> Well, maybe ya oughta.
>I will. Just for you. Except I can't get through on your links.
Oh?
What's the error message that comes up?
You're not on a text-only browser, are you?
If so, try
http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~lo386500/novelbot.htm
>> So it wasn't repaired.
>> They started to dismantle its interior fittings - hey, it's a HUGE
>> ship, that could take forever -when suddenly it's required for one
>> last mission.
>> Hell, in CE all that's operational is the engines and the bridge - and
>> POSSIBLY one fighter bay for the Rogues to launch from.
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>So they just bluff the Imperials into surrender? And painted massive NR logos on the
>bridge? And stuck a new bow on? Remember, at least 1/8 of the bow had been blasted away by
>the end of The Bacta War. (pp.326, 321), and the ship was hardly spaceworthy. No, the ship
>has to have been repaired, no matter what.
That's 300 pages ahead of where I am at the moment, so maybe we should
stop it with the spoilers, eh? :)
It looks like the CE writers may not have read that far either :)
>> He's the highest-ranking New Rep officer present, so he's commanding
>> from the Cap Ship and not "leading from the front" in an x-wing - but
>> he is STILL the Navy officer in direct command of the Rogues.
>True. Dark Empire excepted.
Glad we can agree on something! :)
>> [1] the Rebs look like they launched a pretty clumsy last-ditch effort
>> when they sent out Wedge, the Rogues and the Lusyanka.
>> It looks to me like that's all they had to spare - one fighter
>> squadron and a scrappile SSD.
>Rogue Squadron and the largest ship in the Galaxy.
hardly a "bluff", even if it IS about to be scrapped ...
>> [2] Maybe there are clues in the next Zahn book about Tierce ...
>I doubt, it. I think he's one of several cocks of the snook at the utter mess that ist the
>post-TLC continuity.
"utter mess" ???
You keep saying that, and what is your proof?
"One tiny insignificant sideline comic has the wrong SSD, so the WHOLE
continuity is wrong!"
Hmm.
>> Well, Jax and Karnos graduated pre-ANH - but the base wasn't shut down
>> until after Jax betrayed Palpy in DE3!
>>
>> IMHO there was ALWAYS an Imp training base on Yinchorr, but the
>> depopulation either didn't occur until after the Marvel story, or was
>> limited to the continent with the training base.
>Tenuous. So they just blitz part of the planet, and leave the rest full of bloody-minded
>natives? And if so, why didn't Wessel call out the Guard (:-) when he found out about Leia?
Different continent - besides, he had his own stormies there, why
transfer authority to one of Palpy's left-hand men when he could
capture Leia personally and present her as a gift to Palpy?
Which also explains his survival of her escape; he never told his
superiors!
>> I've been trying to get it out of the library, but the guy who has
>> it's got an extension on it, and someone else has it reserved. :-(
>did you consider the greatdiscounts at the ORB :-)
Well, the book's in hardback only for the next 6 months, and I only
purchase paperbacks! :)
Seriously, tho - for people who DO collect hardbacks, the ORB's
discounts are GREAT - 40% of £15 is a LOT more than 40% of £5!
>> And really, it's not like that one tiny insignificant comic series
>> will have any real effect on the overall continuity of the SW
>> universe.
>No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
well, a few more examples might not hurt your case.
>> >Now don't get me wrong. I like the SW universe messy like this.
>>
>> Oh.
>>
>> Sorry to have straightened it out for ya! :)
>mercifully unconvinced,
Well, whenever you've composed your essay on the subject we can
continue the debate :)
policraticus
> What's the error message that comes up?
>
> impressed.
>
>
> >So they just bluff the Imperials into surrender? And painted massive NR logos on the
> >bridge? And stuck a new bow on? Remember, at least 1/8 of the bow had been blasted away by
> >the end of The Bacta War. (pp.326, 321), and the ship was hardly spaceworthy. No, the ship
> >has to have been repaired, no matter what.
>
> That's 300 pages ahead of where I am at the moment, so maybe we should
> stop it with the spoilers, eh? :)
>
> here weeks ahead of the rest of the world (even the Orb:-).
>
> It looks like the CE writers may not have read that far either :)
>
> X-wing book, and Lusankya and all those B- and E-wings get scrapped as well, but that still
> doesn't really answer the question (hurry up and finish The Bacta War:-).
>
> >> He's the highest-ranking New Rep officer present, so he's commanding
> >> from the Cap Ship and not "leading from the front" in an x-wing - but
> >> he is STILL the Navy officer in direct command of the Rogues.
>
>
> Glad we can agree on something! :)
>
>
> [big snip]
>
>
>
> >No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
>
> well, a few more examples might not hurt your case.
>
>
> YES
>
> SPOILERS!
>
> INCOHERENT AVALANCHE of FACTOIDS
>
>
> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
> altogether. And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
> one more - Dash Rendar?). Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?); the fact that Pellaeon returns in
> Specter of the Past, quite sensibly, to the Chimaera, without any explanation, and to an
> Empire, which, while it bears a close resemblance to what Thrawn left behind at the end of
> TLC, has no warlords, no excess of Super Star Destroyers left over from WEG scenarios, and
> seems to be situated somewhere in the Mid Rim - and I think Pellaeon here has quite a
> different attitude to Daala than in Darksaber. And, more importantly for all of us, what
> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
> we're on the subject of Star Destroyers - the Kotiate and the Intrepid - were 'first' to be
> destroyed by fighters alone.
> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
> hardly fits the timeline.
>
> Then, there's the fact (just realised this) that the Rogues are back in X-wings by I, Jedi,
> after their brief (and absurd) B-wing trip in CE, which could hardly have been much earlier.
> Or Kube-Macdowell's (acknowledged) rejection of what everyone else said about Coruscant, or
> the fluctuating numbers of SSDs in Black Sword Command (1 or 3) and the appearance of
> Interdictors and at least 1 Dreadnought in a fleet with (supposedly) nothing smaller than a
> Victory Star Destroyer.
> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals? In short, while the general sweep of plot
> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
> Vader's lungs.
>
> >> >Now don't get me wrong. I like the SW universe messy like this.
> >>
> >> Oh.
> >>
> >> Sorry to have straightened it out for ya! :)
>
>
> Well, whenever you've composed your essay on the subject we can
> continue the debate :)
>
>
>
> Policrat'
Speculator
>> What's the error message that comes up?
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
> I think my computer's just generally dying. Found it (in my browser bookmarks) & was
> impressed.
Thanks!
>> >So they just bluff the Imperials into surrender? And painted massive NR logos on the
>> >bridge? And stuck a new bow on? Remember, at least 1/8 of the bow had been blasted away by
>> >the end of The Bacta War. (pp.326, 321), and the ship was hardly spaceworthy. No, the ship
>> >has to have been repaired, no matter what.
>>
>> That's 300 pages ahead of where I am at the moment, so maybe we should
>> stop it with the spoilers, eh? :)
> Sorry. I'll stick in notes in future. I'm sorry, I read fast, and we seem to get the books in
> here weeks ahead of the rest of the world (even the Orb:-).
Well, the ORB allows people to place orders BEFORE the official
release date, although the books won't be dispatched until the date
arises.
Apparently some bookstores start selling copies early, and thus risk
their agreement with the publishers. Their gamble!
>> It looks like the CE writers may not have read that far either :)
> Possible. Now I give you that perhaps, just perhaps, the Rogues get pasted in CEII or the 8th
> X-wing book, and Lusankya and all those B- and E-wings get scrapped as well, but that still
> doesn't really answer the question (hurry up and finish The Bacta War:-).
Hey, it's not like I don't have other stuff to do! :)
>> [big snip]
>> >No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
>> well, a few more examples might not hurt your case.
> OK. [takes a deep breath. SPOILER ALERT].
>
>> YES
>>
>> SPOILERS!
>>
>> INCOHERENT AVALANCHE of FACTOIDS
[1]
>> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
>> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
Sounds like KJA tried to correct the errors made when the other 2
sources came out simultaneously.
[1a]
>> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
>> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
>> altogether.
Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
[2]
> And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
>> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
see above
[3]
>> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
>> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
that's a well-documented continuity glitch - but it's been around for
over 15 years, hardly the fault of WEG, Dark Horse or Bantam!
[4]
>> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
>> one more - Dash Rendar?).
AFAIK Kataran found them, and sent them to Leia. She was a courier,
NOT an infiltrator assigned to break into the Imperial Top Secret R&D
facilities! :)
[5]
> Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
>> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
>> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
>> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
Well, scenarios are exactly that - Stackpole wasn't obligated to
acknowledge them.
As for Dodonna's rescue - I haven't read that far, but it seems from
what you've said that MS put it BEFORE TZ's books, not after. I'll
have to read on, and see how it affects the continuity.
[6]
>> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
Well, back in 1991 there was no coordination - and the KJA books were
a fast-buck generator, NOT proper literature ...
[6a]
>> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
>> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
>> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
>> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
I think the idea was that Luke helped her overcome the brainwashing
Palpy subjected her to.
But as I've said, both series were written simultaneously with no
coordination, so what do you expect?
[6b]
> the fact that Pellaeon returns in
>> Specter of the Past, quite sensibly, to the Chimaera, without any explanation, and to an
>> Empire, which, while it bears a close resemblance to what Thrawn left behind at the end of
>> TLC, has no warlords,
Didn't Daala re-unify the Empire in "Darksaber"?
[6bi]
> no excess of Super Star Destroyers left over from WEG scenarios, and
Scenarios - see above
[6bii]
>> seems to be situated somewhere in the Mid Rim
well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
else would they be?
[6biii]
> - and I think Pellaeon here has quite a
>> different attitude to Daala than in Darksaber.
Haven't read SOTP yet :-(
[7]
> And, more importantly for all of us, what
>> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
>> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
>> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
>> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
They're probbaly still out there - fighting Ssi-Ruuk, no doubt ...
[8]
>> we're on the subject of Star Destroyers - the Kotiate and the Intrepid - were 'first' to be
>> destroyed by fighters alone.
you've lost me here ...
[9]
>> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
>> hardly fits the timeline.
he's referred to as having previously had the rank of Colonel in
"X-Wing: Rogue Squadron" - don't see how that ruins the timeline ...
[10]
>> Then, there's the fact (just realised this) that the Rogues are back in X-wings by I, Jedi,
>> after their brief (and absurd) B-wing trip in CE, which could hardly have been much earlier.
we've discussed this already.
[11]
>> Or Kube-Macdowell's (acknowledged) rejection of what everyone else said about Coruscant, or
So he put a sea on city-world.
Does that mean Anakin Skywalker wasn't Luke's father?
hardly ruins the story!
[12]
>> the fluctuating numbers of SSDs in Black Sword Command (1 or 3) and the appearance of
>> Interdictors and at least 1 Dreadnought in a fleet with (supposedly) nothing smaller than a
>> Victory Star Destroyer.
haven't read K-Mac's stuff yet :-(
[13]
>> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
they lost.
> In short, while the general sweep of plot
>> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
>> Vader's lungs.
I disagree.
But when you have voiceovers by James Earl Jones, who cares? :)
[snip]
>> Well, whenever you've composed your essay on the subject we can
>> continue the debate :)
> That's the essay. Happy now?
Ecstatic! :)
policraticus
> >> >So they just bluff the Imperials into surrender? And painted massive NR logos on the
> >> >bridge? And stuck a new bow on? Remember, at least 1/8 of the bow had been blasted away by
> >> >the end of The Bacta War. (pp.326, 321), and the ship was hardly spaceworthy. No, the ship
> >> >has to have been repaired, no matter what.
> >>
> >> That's 300 pages ahead of where I am at the moment, so maybe we should
> >> stop it with the spoilers, eh? :)
>
> > Sorry. I'll stick in notes in future. I'm sorry, I read fast, and we seem to get the books in
> > here weeks ahead of the rest of the world (even the Orb:-).
>
> Well, the ORB allows people to place orders BEFORE the official
> release date, although the books won't be dispatched until the date
> arises.
>
> Apparently some bookstores start selling copies early, and thus risk
> their agreement with the publishers. Their gamble!
>
> >> It looks like the CE writers may not have read that far either :)
>
> > Possible. Now I give you that perhaps, just perhaps, the Rogues get pasted in CEII or the 8th
> > X-wing book, and Lusankya and all those B- and E-wings get scrapped as well, but that still
> > doesn't really answer the question (hurry up and finish The Bacta War:-).
>
> Hey, it's not like I don't have other stuff to do! :)
Still doesn't answere the question....
> >> [big snip]
>
> >> >No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
>
> >> well, a few more examples might not hurt your case.
>
> > OK. [takes a deep breath. SPOILER ALERT].
> >
> >> YES
> >>
> >> SPOILERS!
> >>
> >> INCOHERENT AVALANCHE of FACTOIDS
>
> [1]
> >> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
> >> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
> Sounds like KJA tried to correct the errors made when the other 2 sources came out simultaneously.
Really? KJA caring about straightening out a minor continuity glitch?
> [1a]
> >> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
> >> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
> >> altogether.
>
> Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
Trust me, I'm a historian.
> > And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
> >> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
> see above
OI! Stop trying to get out of it! :-)
> >> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
> >> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
>
> that's a well-documented continuity glitch - but it's been around for
> over 15 years, hardly the fault of WEG, Dark Horse or Bantam!
If I remember, Children of the Jedi and one of the other books add 'new' Bounty-Hunters.
> [4]
> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
>
> AFAIK Kataran found them, and sent them to Leia. She was a courier,
> NOT an infiltrator assigned to break into the Imperial Top Secret R&D
> facilities! :)
Yes, that's the DF scenario, but I'm sure there's another one. Will find out.
> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
>
> Well, scenarios are exactly that - Stackpole wasn't obligated to
> acknowledge them.
>
> As for Dodonna's rescue - I haven't read that far, but it seems from
> what you've said that MS put it BEFORE TZ's books, not after. I'll
> have to read on, and see how it affects the continuity. Still, it's 3 different scenarios....
>
> [6]
> >> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
> Well, back in 1991 there was no coordination - and the KJA books were
> a fast-buck generator, NOT proper literature ...
Still doesn't mean there's no problem. And even then (eg the intro to the DE trade p'back), KJA wrote
(he's a much better essayist than he seems as a novellist IMHO) about the 'research' he'd had to do -
WEG, others' novels, etc.
> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
> I think the idea was that Luke helped her overcome the brainwashing
> Palpy subjected her to.
It was fundamentally Force-control. And Palpy, being a powerful SoB (SotP? SotE?) could re-establish
it. Hey, why drop it in the first place and leave Mara wandering around like so?
> But as I've said, both series were written simultaneously with no
> coordination, so what do you expect?
It'sEXACTLY what I expect!
> > the fact that Pellaeon returns in
> >> Specter of the Past, quite sensibly, to the Chimaera, without any explanation, and to an
> >> Empire, which, while it bears a close resemblance to what Thrawn left behind at the end of
> >> TLC, has no warlords,
> Didn't Daala re-unify the Empire in "Darksaber"?
She unified the Warlords' fleets. In the Deep Core. What happened to the 1/4 of the Galaxy Thrawn had
controlled was never explained until Specter of the Past.
> [6bi]
> > no excess of Super Star Destroyers left over from WEG scenarios, and
>
> Scenarios - see above.
How Canon is the SWAJ - Reaper, anyone? Or the Kube-Macdowell trilogy. In which, incidentally, Byss
is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
> else would they be?
Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
Rim.
> > - and I think Pellaeon here has quite a
> >> different attitude to Daala than in Darksaber.
>
> Haven't read SOTP yet :-(
>
> [7]
> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
>
> They're probbaly still out there - fighting Ssi-Ruuk, no doubt ...
Now this, I like.
> >> we're on the subject of Star Destroyers - the Kotiate and the Intrepid - were 'first' to be
> >> destroyed by fighters alone.
>
> you've lost me here ...
Sorry. Two sources (WEG and X-wing) name different ISDs as the first to be destroyed by fighters
alone.
> >> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
> >> hardly fits the timeline.
>
> he's referred to as having previously had the rank of Colonel in
> "X-Wing: Rogue Squadron" - don't see how that ruins the timeline ...
Colonel - Captain - Vice Admiral - Grand Admiral ain't a regular promotion, and if everything's
thrown together, it's a mess - like the absurd attempt to integrate the (naval, or perhaps British
RAF) ranks of pilots in the movies with the American (army-based) system. It's the one thing in the
X-wing books that really bothers me, and at its worst (eg, "The Making of Baron Fel" it really screws
up. And what happens to the good baron between the comics and Wraith Squadron (as it stands, seems to
be another glitch).
> >> Then, there's the fact (just realised this) that the Rogues are back in X-wings by I, Jedi,
> >> after their brief (and absurd) B-wing trip in CE, which could hardly have been much earlier.
>
> we've discussed this already.
And agree there's a mess. Stop dodging the issue :-)
> [11]
> >> Or Kube-Macdowell's (acknowledged) rejection of what everyone else said about Coruscant, or
>
> So he put a sea on city-world.
>
> Does that mean Anakin Skywalker wasn't Luke's father?
>
> hardly ruins the story!
> >> the fluctuating numbers of SSDs in Black Sword Command (1 or 3) and the appearance of
> >> Interdictors and at least 1 Dreadnought in a fleet with (supposedly) nothing smaller than a
> >> Victory Star Destroyer.
>
> haven't read K-Mac's stuff yet :-(
At's OK.
> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
>
> they lost.
When? In the 6 months after Endor?! Before Zsinj and Isard and Daala. Please!:-)
> > In short, while the general sweep of plot
> >> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
> >> Vader's lungs.
>
> I disagree.
> But when you have voiceovers by James Earl Jones, who cares? :)
True. Anyway, I thing we agree that, if the SW universe is messy and inconsistent (like a lot of real
history), but the general thread holds together, we're all happy?
Policrat'
Speculator
>> >> [big snip]
>>
>> >> >No, but it is just one example of the utter mess that is SW continuity. You want an essay?
>>
>> >> well, a few more examples might not hurt your case.
>>
>> > OK. [takes a deep breath. SPOILER ALERT].
>> >
>> >> YES
>> >>
>> >> SPOILERS!
>> >>
>> >> INCOHERENT AVALANCHE of FACTOIDS
>>
>> [1]
>> >> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
>> >> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
>> Sounds like KJA tried to correct the errors made when the other 2 sources came out simultaneously.
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>Really? KJA caring about straightening out a minor continuity glitch?
He's the ULTIMATE SW fanboy - you haven't noticed???
Remember the trouble he went to, explaining the "Kessel run in less
than 12 parsecs" remark?
Anyway, by your account for once KJA's actually done us a favour! ;)
>> [1a]
>> >> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
>> >> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
>> >> altogether.
>>
>> Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
>Trust me, I'm a historian.
Well, you're still being vague about your sources.
When I did history we were expected to give quotes and page numbers!
Besides, who gives a monkey's WHAT kind of damn crystals Luke used?
>> > And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
>> >> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
>> see above
>OI! Stop trying to get out of it! :-)
Well, I can't debate on points if I haven't read exactly what the
Radio Drama says.
In fact, I never knew the Radio Dramas acknowledged Mara as a "Canon"
character!
>> >> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
>> >> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
>>
>> that's a well-documented continuity glitch - but it's been around for
>> over 15 years, hardly the fault of WEG, Dark Horse or Bantam!
>If I remember, Children of the Jedi and one of the other books add 'new' Bounty-Hunters.
Haven't read COTJ, and I sure as hell don't remember any other Bantam
books adding "new" Bounty-Hunters ...
Though, as you postulated, it is possible there were a LOT of them at
Ord Mantell.
In Ann Crispin's books, Han has confrontations with 9+ hunters - and
if he was in the Ord Mantell system for over a month, no doubt they'd
be swarming like buzzards!
>> [4]
>> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
>> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
>>
>> AFAIK Kataran found them, and sent them to Leia. She was a courier,
>> NOT an infiltrator assigned to break into the Imperial Top Secret R&D
>> facilities! :)
>Yes, that's the DF scenario, but I'm sure there's another one. Will find out.
Please do.
[5]
>> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
>> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
>> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
>> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
>>
>> Well, scenarios are exactly that - Stackpole wasn't obligated to
>> acknowledge them.
>>
>> As for Dodonna's rescue - I haven't read that far, but it seems from
>> what you've said that MS put it BEFORE TZ's books, not after. I'll
>> have to read on, and see how it affects the continuity. Still, it's 3 different scenarios....
Just got "I Jedi" out of the library - in the early chapters it says
the Rogues rescued Dodonna AFTER Thrawn's campaign.
>> [6]
>> >> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
>> Well, back in 1991 there was no coordination - and the KJA books were
>> a fast-buck generator, NOT proper literature ...
>Still doesn't mean there's no problem. And even then (eg the intro to the DE trade p'back), KJA wrote
>(he's a much better essayist than he seems as a novellist IMHO) about the 'research' he'd had to do -
>WEG, others' novels, etc.
The "research" started BECAUSE of the contradictions between the firts
2 simultaneous creation!
Before them there was no "SW Writers' Bible" - but they sure as hell
proved the need for it!
>> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
>> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
>> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
>> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
>> I think the idea was that Luke helped her overcome the brainwashing
>> Palpy subjected her to.
>It was fundamentally Force-control. And Palpy, being a powerful SoB (SotP? SotE?) could re-establish
>it. Hey, why drop it in the first place and leave Mara wandering around like so?
Maybe she wasn't.
She was given a task [TLC] - and when she failed, Palpy had no further
use for her.
>> But as I've said, both series were written simultaneously with no
>> coordination, so what do you expect?
>It'sEXACTLY what I expect!
Telepathy between 2 writers who, thanks to Lucasfilm bungling, were
not given any kind of continuity guidelines?
As I've said, Lucasfilm screwed up - but since then they've papered
over the cracks pretty well, and I for one am not going to say "SW is
falling to pieces" because Palpy felt his renegade ex-Hand wasn't
worth contacting after she betrayed him, disobeyed his Last Command
and shacked up with his worst enemy!
>> > the fact that Pellaeon returns in
>> >> Specter of the Past, quite sensibly, to the Chimaera, without any explanation, and to an
>> >> Empire, which, while it bears a close resemblance to what Thrawn left behind at the end of
>> >> TLC, has no warlords,
>> Didn't Daala re-unify the Empire in "Darksaber"?
>She unified the Warlords' fleets. In the Deep Core. What happened to the 1/4 of the Galaxy Thrawn had
>controlled was never explained until Specter of the Past.
Haven't read that yet :(
Checked at the library today - the SOB who took it out a whole
frigging MONTH ago, and renewed it a fortnight ago, also renewed it
YESTERDAY!!!
PLUS, someone else has had it reserved for about a month, and HE'll
have it for another bloody fortnight too!
In other words, it'll be a MONTH - at bloody LEAST - until I can read
the new bloody Thrawn book!
<Spec stops fuming at the lazy idle goodfernuthin BASTITCH who had the
book 4 weeks without reading it, and looks on the bright side>
Hey, I got "I, Jedi" out instead! Brand new copy, I'm the first person
to read it! :)
>> [6bi]
>> > no excess of Super Star Destroyers left over from WEG scenarios, and
>>
>> Scenarios - see above.
>How Canon is the SWAJ - Reaper, anyone? Or the Kube-Macdowell trilogy. In which, incidentally, Byss
SWAJ stories are canon - but a senario is a "what if" for PCs ...
>is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
but capital of WHO's Empire?
>> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
>> else would they be?
>Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
>Rim.
Well, it may be that there are 2 groups of Imperial worlds ...
>> > - and I think Pellaeon here has quite a
>> >> different attitude to Daala than in Darksaber.
>>
>> Haven't read SOTP yet :-(
see above.
Maybe I'll have read it this time next month - next bloody month of
Sundays, that is!
>> [7]
>> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
>> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
>> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
>> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
>> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
>>
>> They're probbaly still out there - fighting Ssi-Ruuk, no doubt ...
>Now this, I like.
Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
>> >> we're on the subject of Star Destroyers - the Kotiate and the Intrepid - were 'first' to be
>> >> destroyed by fighters alone.
>>
>> you've lost me here ...
>Sorry. Two sources (WEG and X-wing) name different ISDs as the first to be destroyed by fighters
>alone.
hmm.
Maybe 1 was ISD-I, other was ISD-II ...
>> >> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
>> >> hardly fits the timeline.
>> he's referred to as having previously had the rank of Colonel in
>> "X-Wing: Rogue Squadron" - don't see how that ruins the timeline ...
>Colonel - Captain - Vice Admiral - Grand Admiral ain't a regular promotion, and if everything's
>thrown together, it's a mess - like the absurd attempt to integrate the (naval, or perhaps British
>RAF) ranks of pilots in the movies with the American (army-based) system. It's the one thing in the
>X-wing books that really bothers me, and at its worst (eg, "The Making of Baron Fel" it really screws
>up. And what happens to the good baron between the comics and Wraith Squadron (as it stands, seems to
>be another glitch).
"General Lando Calrissian" ???
Hey, it's dumb, it sucks - but it's "Part of SW, GL's vision as
originall intended" ...
>> >> Then, there's the fact (just realised this) that the Rogues are back in X-wings by I, Jedi,
>> >> after their brief (and absurd) B-wing trip in CE, which could hardly have been much earlier.
>>
>> we've discussed this already.
>And agree there's a mess. Stop dodging the issue :-)
Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed the
ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the Rogues ...
>> [11]
>> >> Or Kube-Macdowell's (acknowledged) rejection of what everyone else said about Coruscant, or
>
>> So he put a sea on city-world.
>> Does that mean Anakin Skywalker wasn't Luke's father?
>> hardly ruins the story!
>> >> the fluctuating numbers of SSDs in Black Sword Command (1 or 3) and the appearance of
>> >> Interdictors and at least 1 Dreadnought in a fleet with (supposedly) nothing smaller than a
>> >> Victory Star Destroyer.
>>
>> haven't read K-Mac's stuff yet :-(
>At's OK.
>> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
>>
>> they lost.
>When? In the 6 months after Endor?! Before Zsinj and Isard and Daala. Please!:-)
Fair enough, it would be a GREAT story - or 11 ...
Pity nobody's done it yet.
<Spec turns to address K-Mac, Mike Stackpole, Ann Crispin, Rich and
any other VIPs who may be passing>
Guys, Pol' and I were thinking - maybe you could consider writing
about the ...
>> > In short, while the general sweep of plot
>> >> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
>> >> Vader's lungs.
>>
>> I disagree.
>> But when you have voiceovers by James Earl Jones, who cares? :)
>True. Anyway, I thing we agree that, if the SW universe is messy and inconsistent (like a lot of real
>history), but the general thread holds together, we're all happy?
hey, I for one am not complaining! :)
OtterPop 1
On Tue, May 12, 1998 23:06 EDT, spec...@infoshop.u-net.com (Speculator) wrote:
>>> >> Then, there's the fact (just realised this) that the Rogues are back in
>X-wings by I, Jedi,
>>> >> after their brief (and absurd) B-wing trip in CE, which could hardly
>have been much earlier.
>>>
>>> we've discussed this already.
>
>>And agree there's a mess. Stop dodging the issue :-)
>
>Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
>
>Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed
>the ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the
>Rogues ...
Actually, is it really that much of a stretch to say it's the actual Rogues, in
the flesh? Just because they usually fly X-wings doesn't necessarily mean
they'll *always* fly X-wings. Think about it ... in CE they appeared to be
going up against a heavy capital ship with minimal fighter opposition, a
mission in which a dedicated bomber like the B-wing would be perfectly suited.
Dan
policraticus
> >> >> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
> >> >> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
>
> >> Sounds like KJA tried to correct the errors made when the other 2 sources came out simultaneously.
>
> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
> discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
> >Really? KJA caring about straightening out a minor continuity glitch?
>
> He's the ULTIMATE SW fanboy - you haven't noticed???
>
> Remember the trouble he went to, explaining the "Kessel run in less
> than 12 parsecs" remark?
>
> Anyway, by your account for once KJA's actually done us a favour! ;)
Hmm. Not exactly. Though I see what you mean. KJA does normally read like bad fanfic:-)
> >> [1a]
> >> >> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
> >> >> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
> >> >> altogether.
> >>
> >> Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
>
> >Trust me, I'm a historian.
>
> Well, you're still being vague about your sources.
> When I did history we were expected to give quotes and page numbers!
Sorry! I'm citing from memory. SotE, pp.29-32. I don't have everything here with me (you didn't think I
was looking this all up?). Although it is admitted that "the best lightsabers used natural jewels, but
there weren't a lot of the kind he needed lying around where he could find them on Tatooine." (p.30), I
seem to recall (that prodigious memory again) that either Corusca Gems or Durindfires come from Tatooine.
The other lot are supposedly found in Yavin's heart. Or is it the same lot? I know there's a ref in "I,
Jedi", but I can't find it right now.
> Besides, who gives a monkey's WHAT kind of damn crystals Luke used?
No-one. They're simply ammunition to demolish the myth of a cohesive canon.
> >> > And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
> >> >> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
>
> >> see above
>
> >OI! Stop trying to get out of it! :-)
>
> Well, I can't debate on points if I haven't read exactly what the
> Radio Drama says.
>
> In fact, I never knew the Radio Dramas acknowledged Mara as a "Canon"
> character!
Indeed. There are even some .wav files of her on someone's site (Jade Crusades, I think) - though I don't
think I ever imagined Mara with a Southern US accent :-)
> >> >> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
> >> >> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
> >>
> >> that's a well-documented continuity glitch - but it's been around for
> >> over 15 years, hardly the fault of WEG, Dark Horse or Bantam!
>
> >If I remember, Children of the Jedi and one of the other books add 'new' Bounty-Hunters.
>
> Haven't read COTJ, and I sure as hell don't remember any other Bantam
> books adding "new" Bounty-Hunters ...
>
> Though, as you postulated, it is possible there were a LOT of them at
> Ord Mantell.
"That Bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell". Singular. I think the 'second' new (or old) BH is a
throwaway in KJA (again)....
> In Ann Crispin's books, Han has confrontations with 9+ hunters - and
> if he was in the Ord Mantell system for over a month, no doubt they'd
> be swarming like buzzards!
Tenuous. It's tangled again....
> >> [4]
> >> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
> >> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
> >>
> >> AFAIK Kataran found them, and sent them to Leia. She was a courier,
> >> NOT an infiltrator assigned to break into the Imperial Top Secret R&D
> >> facilities! :)
>
> >Yes, that's the DF scenario, but I'm sure there's another one. Will find out.
>
> Please do.
Give me a break :-) I'm looking....
> [5]
> >> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
> >> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
> >> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
> >> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
> >>
> >> Well, scenarios are exactly that - Stackpole wasn't obligated to
> >> acknowledge them.
> >>
> >> As for Dodonna's rescue - I haven't read that far, but it seems from
> >> what you've said that MS put it BEFORE TZ's books, not after. I'll
> >> have to read on, and see how it affects the continuity. Still, it's 3 different scenarios....
>
> Just got "I Jedi" out of the library - in the early chapters it says
> the Rogues rescued Dodonna AFTER Thrawn's campaign.
Sorry. That's clear, but people would know that Dodonna was alive and well after the X-wing books.
> >> [6]
> >> >> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
>
> >> Well, back in 1991 there was no coordination - and the KJA books were
> >> a fast-buck generator, NOT proper literature ...
>
> >Still doesn't mean there's no problem. And even then (eg the intro to the DE trade p'back), KJA wrote
> >(he's a much better essayist than he seems as a novellist IMHO) about the 'research' he'd had to do -
> >WEG, others' novels, etc.
>
> The "research" started BECAUSE of the contradictions between the firts
> 2 simultaneous creation!
>
> Before them there was no "SW Writers' Bible" - but they sure as hell
> proved the need for it!
> >> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
> >> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
> >> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
> >> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
>
> >> I think the idea was that Luke helped her overcome the brainwashing
> >> Palpy subjected her to.
>
> >It was fundamentally Force-control. And Palpy, being a powerful SoB (SotP? SotE?) could re-establish
> >it. Hey, why drop it in the first place and leave Mara wandering around like so?
>
> Maybe she wasn't.
>
> She was given a task [TLC] - and when she failed, Palpy had no further
> use for her.
Come on! Mara is (a) one of the Emperor's best agents and (b) killed C'Baoth and the clone Luuke, not to
mention all the other havoc she wreaked. And why would Palpy have let her get out of hand (and lose her
Force-powers) if he survived? On top of this, she'd have made great Skywalker-bait. If DE knew about
Thrawn (at least by the time they wrote the intros), why not Mara? Okay, I know, their choice, but it
doesn't add up.
> >> But as I've said, both series were written simultaneously with no
> >> coordination, so what do you expect?
>
> >It'sEXACTLY what I expect!
>
> Telepathy between 2 writers who, thanks to Lucasfilm bungling, were
> not given any kind of continuity guidelines?
No! I don't expect rigid continuity! People get their facts wrong all the time (me included). That's the
way it has to be.
> As I've said, Lucasfilm screwed up - but since then they've papered
> over the cracks pretty well....
Really? Now this IS what worries me. The Lucasfilm continuity police (after the stormtrooper-precise start
coordinating Zahn and the DE comics) seem to have imposed the WEG material as canon (even when - eg 5 mile
SSDs) it seems to contradict the movies, and at the same time, they let everything else get messy.
> I for one am not going to say "SW is
> falling to pieces" because Palpy felt his renegade ex-Hand wasn't
> worth contacting after she betrayed him, disobeyed his Last Command
> and shacked up with his worst enemy!
Fair enough.
> >> Didn't Daala re-unify the Empire in "Darksaber"?
>
> >She unified the Warlords' fleets. In the Deep Core. What happened to the 1/4 of the Galaxy Thrawn had
> >controlled was never explained until Specter of the Past.
>
> In other words, it'll be a MONTH - at bloody LEAST - until I can read
> the new bloody Thrawn book!
>
> Hey, I got "I, Jedi" out instead! Brand new copy, I'm the first person
> to read it! :)
Good luck on both books.
> >How Canon is the SWAJ - Reaper, anyone? Or the Kube-Macdowell trilogy. In which, incidentally, Byss
>
> SWAJ stories are canon - but a senario is a "what if" for PCs ...
>
> >is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
>
> but capital of WHO's Empire?
Byss was destroyed in EE #2 as far as I know (haven't read it). Not exactly government centre material
(tho' you could probably build a few Death Stars from it :-)
> >> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
> >> else would they be?
>
> >Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
> >Rim.
>
> Well, it may be that there are 2 groups of Imperial worlds ...
1/2 of which (take your choice of which lot) are ignored by everyone except Stackpole, depending on
whether they're following Zahn or whoever thought up all the warlords. btw, where did the warlords come
from?
> >> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
> >> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> >> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> >> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> >> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
> >>
> >> They're probbaly still out there - fighting Ssi-Ruuk, no doubt ...
>
> >Now this, I like.
>
> Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
> the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
Why not? Thrawn off-limits, or Ssi-Ruuk?
> >Two sources (WEG and X-wing) name different ISDs as the first to be destroyed by > fighters alone.
>
> hmm.
>
> Maybe 1 was ISD-I, other was ISD-II ...
LOL!
> >> >> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
> >> >> hardly fits the timeline.
>
> >> he's referred to as having previously had the rank of Colonel in
> >> "X-Wing: Rogue Squadron" - don't see how that ruins the timeline ...
>
> >Colonel - Captain - Vice Admiral - Grand Admiral ain't a regular promotion, and if everything's
> >thrown together, it's a mess - like the absurd attempt to integrate the (naval, or perhaps British
> >RAF) ranks of pilots in the movies with the American (army-based) system. It's the one thing in the
> >X-wing books that really bothers me, and at its worst (eg, "The Making of Baron Fel" it really screws
> >up. And what happens to the good baron between the comics and Wraith Squadron (as it stands, seems to
> >be another glitch).
>
> "General Lando Calrissian" ???
>
> Hey, it's dumb, it sucks - but it's "Part of SW, GL's vision as
> originall intended" ...
Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, and
THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels might
be allowed to get away with making Lando a General (exactly where 'Princess' sat in the Alliance rank
structure always puzzled me :-) but for the Imps in their heyday, it's an utter mess!
> Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
>
> Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed the
> ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the Rogues ...
Ingenious, but have a look at the last frame of CE #4!
> >> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
> >>
> >> they lost.
>
> >When? In the 6 months after Endor?! Before Zsinj and Isard and Daala. Please!:-)
>
> Fair enough, it would be a GREAT story - or 11 ...
>
> Pity nobody's done it yet.
>
> <Spec turns to address K-Mac, Mike Stackpole, Ann Crispin, Rich and
> any other VIPs who may be passing>
>
> Guys, Pol' and I were thinking - maybe you could consider writing
> about the ...
LOL (again! this is getting worrying!)
But seriously (or at least, not frivolously), what happened to them! Were they all aboard the DS III when
KJA was wandering around with a pen and paper, and everyone's too embarassed to mention what happened?
> >> > In short, while the general sweep of plot
> >> >> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
> >> >> Vader's lungs.
> >>
> >> I disagree.
> >> But when you have voiceovers by James Earl Jones, who cares? :)
>
> >True. Anyway, I thing we agree that, if the SW universe is messy and inconsistent (like a lot of real
> >history), but the general thread holds together, we're all happy?
>
> hey, I for one am not complaining! :)
me neither!
Policrat'
policraticus
> >> >> The fact that according to DE, lightsabers are made using only Adegan crystals from Adega,
> >> >> according to Zahn, they use corusca gems, and according to KJA, they use various crystals.
>
> >> Sounds like KJA tried to correct the errors made when the other 2 sources came out simultaneously.
>
> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
> discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
> >Really? KJA caring about straightening out a minor continuity glitch?
>
> He's the ULTIMATE SW fanboy - you haven't noticed???
>
> Remember the trouble he went to, explaining the "Kessel run in less
> than 12 parsecs" remark?
>
> Anyway, by your account for once KJA's actually done us a favour! ;)
Hmm. Not exactly. Though I see what you mean. KJA does normally read like bad fanfic:-)
> >> [1a]
> >> >> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
> >> >> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
> >> >> altogether.
> >>
> >> Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
>
> >Trust me, I'm a historian.
>
> Well, you're still being vague about your sources.
> When I did history we were expected to give quotes and page numbers!
Sorry! I'm citing from memory. SotE, pp.29-32. I don't have everything here with me (you didn't think I
was looking this all up?). Although it is admitted that "the best lightsabers used natural jewels, but
there weren't a lot of the kind he needed lying around where he could find them on Tatooine." (p.30), I
seem to recall (that prodigious memory again) that either Corusca Gems or Durindfires come from Tatooine.
The other lot are supposedly found in Yavin's heart. Or is it the same lot? I know there's a ref in "I,
Jedi", but I can't find it right now.
> Besides, who gives a monkey's WHAT kind of damn crystals Luke used?
No-one. They're simply ammunition to demolish the myth of a cohesive canon.
> >> > And while we're on the subject, the radio drama plops Leia in the hands of Mara
> >> >> Jade at Jabba's palace rather than Boba Fett (in one of the short story anthologies).
>
> >> see above
>
> >OI! Stop trying to get out of it! :-)
>
> Well, I can't debate on points if I haven't read exactly what the
> Radio Drama says.
>
> In fact, I never knew the Radio Dramas acknowledged Mara as a "Canon"
> character!
Indeed. There are even some .wav files of her on someone's site (Jade Crusades, I think) - though I don't
think I ever imagined Mara with a Southern US accent :-)
> >> >> There are at least five different accounts of Ord Mantell, and certainly several different
> >> >> Bounty Hunters who Han, Leia and/or Luke ran into (must have been a busy and popular planet).
> >>
> >> that's a well-documented continuity glitch - but it's been around for
> >> over 15 years, hardly the fault of WEG, Dark Horse or Bantam!
>
> >If I remember, Children of the Jedi and one of the other books add 'new' Bounty-Hunters.
>
> Haven't read COTJ, and I sure as hell don't remember any other Bantam
> books adding "new" Bounty-Hunters ...
>
> Though, as you postulated, it is possible there were a LOT of them at
> Ord Mantell.
"That Bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell". Singular. I think the 'second' new (or old) BH is a
throwaway in KJA (again)....
> In Ann Crispin's books, Han has confrontations with 9+ hunters - and
> if he was in the Ord Mantell system for over a month, no doubt they'd
> be swarming like buzzards!
Tenuous. It's tangled again....
> >> [4]
> >> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
> >> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
> >>
> >> AFAIK Kataran found them, and sent them to Leia. She was a courier,
> >> NOT an infiltrator assigned to break into the Imperial Top Secret R&D
> >> facilities! :)
>
> >Yes, that's the DF scenario, but I'm sure there's another one. Will find out.
>
> Please do.
Give me a break :-) I'm looking....
> [5]
> >> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
> >> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
> >> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
> >> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
> >>
> >> Well, scenarios are exactly that - Stackpole wasn't obligated to
> >> acknowledge them.
> >>
> >> As for Dodonna's rescue - I haven't read that far, but it seems from
> >> what you've said that MS put it BEFORE TZ's books, not after. I'll
> >> have to read on, and see how it affects the continuity. Still, it's 3 different scenarios....
>
> Just got "I Jedi" out of the library - in the early chapters it says
> the Rogues rescued Dodonna AFTER Thrawn's campaign.
Sorry. That's clear, but people would know that Dodonna was alive and well after the X-wing books.
> >> [6]
> >> >> Then there is the problem that Zahn's plots really do not work alongside KJA or the comics.
>
> >> Well, back in 1991 there was no coordination - and the KJA books were
> >> a fast-buck generator, NOT proper literature ...
>
> >Still doesn't mean there's no problem. And even then (eg the intro to the DE trade p'back), KJA wrote
> >(he's a much better essayist than he seems as a novellist IMHO) about the 'research' he'd had to do -
> >WEG, others' novels, etc.
>
> The "research" started BECAUSE of the contradictions between the firts
> 2 simultaneous creation!
>
> Before them there was no "SW Writers' Bible" - but they sure as hell
> proved the need for it!
> >> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
> >> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
> >> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
> >> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
>
> >> I think the idea was that Luke helped her overcome the brainwashing
> >> Palpy subjected her to.
>
> >It was fundamentally Force-control. And Palpy, being a powerful SoB (SotP? SotE?) could re-establish
> >it. Hey, why drop it in the first place and leave Mara wandering around like so?
>
> Maybe she wasn't.
>
> She was given a task [TLC] - and when she failed, Palpy had no further
> use for her.
Come on! Mara is (a) one of the Emperor's best agents and (b) killed C'Baoth and the clone Luuke, not to
mention all the other havoc she wreaked. And why would Palpy have let her get out of hand (and lose her
Force-powers) if he survived? On top of this, she'd have made great Skywalker-bait. If DE knew about
Thrawn (at least by the time they wrote the intros), why not Mara? Okay, I know, their choice, but it
doesn't add up.
> >> But as I've said, both series were written simultaneously with no
> >> coordination, so what do you expect?
>
> >It'sEXACTLY what I expect!
>
> Telepathy between 2 writers who, thanks to Lucasfilm bungling, were
> not given any kind of continuity guidelines?
No! I don't expect rigid continuity! People get their facts wrong all the time (me included). That's the
way it has to be.
> As I've said, Lucasfilm screwed up - but since then they've papered
> over the cracks pretty well....
Really? Now this IS what worries me. The Lucasfilm continuity police (after the stormtrooper-precise start
coordinating Zahn and the DE comics) seem to have imposed the WEG material as canon (even when - eg 5 mile
SSDs) it seems to contradict the movies, and at the same time, they let everything else get messy.
> I for one am not going to say "SW is
> falling to pieces" because Palpy felt his renegade ex-Hand wasn't
> worth contacting after she betrayed him, disobeyed his Last Command
> and shacked up with his worst enemy!
Fair enough.
> >> Didn't Daala re-unify the Empire in "Darksaber"?
>
> >She unified the Warlords' fleets. In the Deep Core. What happened to the 1/4 of the Galaxy Thrawn had
> >controlled was never explained until Specter of the Past.
>
> In other words, it'll be a MONTH - at bloody LEAST - until I can read
> the new bloody Thrawn book!
>
> Hey, I got "I, Jedi" out instead! Brand new copy, I'm the first person
> to read it! :)
Good luck on both books.
> >How Canon is the SWAJ - Reaper, anyone? Or the Kube-Macdowell trilogy. In which, incidentally, Byss
>
> SWAJ stories are canon - but a senario is a "what if" for PCs ...
>
> >is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
>
> but capital of WHO's Empire?
Byss was destroyed in EE #2 as far as I know (haven't read it). Not exactly government centre material
(tho' you could probably build a few Death Stars from it :-)
> >> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
> >> else would they be?
>
> >Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
> >Rim.
>
> Well, it may be that there are 2 groups of Imperial worlds ...
1/2 of which (take your choice of which lot) are ignored by everyone except Stackpole, depending on
whether they're following Zahn or whoever thought up all the warlords. btw, where did the warlords come
from?
> >> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
> >> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> >> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> >> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> >> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
> >>
> >> They're probbaly still out there - fighting Ssi-Ruuk, no doubt ...
>
> >Now this, I like.
>
> Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
> the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
Why not? Thrawn off-limits, or Ssi-Ruuk?
> >Two sources (WEG and X-wing) name different ISDs as the first to be destroyed by > fighters alone.
>
> hmm.
>
> Maybe 1 was ISD-I, other was ISD-II ...
LOL!
> >> >> And as for Thrawn, he appears variously as Colonel, Captain and Vice-Admiral in a way that
> >> >> hardly fits the timeline.
>
> >> he's referred to as having previously had the rank of Colonel in
> >> "X-Wing: Rogue Squadron" - don't see how that ruins the timeline ...
>
> >Colonel - Captain - Vice Admiral - Grand Admiral ain't a regular promotion, and if everything's
> >thrown together, it's a mess - like the absurd attempt to integrate the (naval, or perhaps British
> >RAF) ranks of pilots in the movies with the American (army-based) system. It's the one thing in the
> >X-wing books that really bothers me, and at its worst (eg, "The Making of Baron Fel" it really screws
> >up. And what happens to the good baron between the comics and Wraith Squadron (as it stands, seems to
> >be another glitch).
>
> "General Lando Calrissian" ???
>
> Hey, it's dumb, it sucks - but it's "Part of SW, GL's vision as
> originall intended" ...
Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, and
THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels might
be allowed to get away with making Lando a General (exactly where 'Princess' sat in the Alliance rank
structure always puzzled me :-) but for the Imps in their heyday, it's an utter mess!
> Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
>
> Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed the
> ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the Rogues ...
Ingenious, but have a look at the last frame of CE #4!
> >> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
> >>
> >> they lost.
>
> >When? In the 6 months after Endor?! Before Zsinj and Isard and Daala. Please!:-)
>
> Fair enough, it would be a GREAT story - or 11 ...
>
> Pity nobody's done it yet.
>
> <Spec turns to address K-Mac, Mike Stackpole, Ann Crispin, Rich and
> any other VIPs who may be passing>
>
> Guys, Pol' and I were thinking - maybe you could consider writing
> about the ...
LOL (again! this is getting worrying!)
But seriously (or at least, not frivolously), what happened to them! Were they all aboard the DS III when
KJA was wandering around with a pen and paper, and everyone's too embarassed to mention what happened?
> >> > In short, while the general sweep of plot
> >> >> (just about) holds together, there are so many inconsistencies that it has more holes than
> >> >> Vader's lungs.
> >>
> >> I disagree.
> >> But when you have voiceovers by James Earl Jones, who cares? :)
>
> >True. Anyway, I thing we agree that, if the SW universe is messy and inconsistent (like a lot of real
> >history), but the general thread holds together, we're all happy?
>
> hey, I for one am not complaining! :)
me neither!
Policrat'
Speculator
>> >> [1a]
>> >> >> According to SotE, Luke used an artificial 'lightsaber gem' to make his saber, while Zahn says
>> >> >> Leia gave him green corusca gems (or something) and the ROTJ radio drama has another account
>> >> >> altogether.
>> >>
>> >> Haven't read SOTE or Radio Dramas :-(
>>
>> >Trust me, I'm a historian.
>>
>> Well, you're still being vague about your sources.
>> When I did history we were expected to give quotes and page numbers!
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>Sorry! I'm citing from memory. SotE, pp.29-32. I don't have everything here with me (you didn't think I
>was looking this all up?). Although it is admitted that "the best lightsabers used natural jewels, but
>there weren't a lot of the kind he needed lying around where he could find them on Tatooine." (p.30), I
>seem to recall (that prodigious memory again) that either Corusca Gems or Durindfires come from Tatooine.
>The other lot are supposedly found in Yavin's heart. Or is it the same lot? I know there's a ref in "I,
>Jedi", but I can't find it right now.
Well, it seems there's enough room for doubt.
>> Besides, who gives a monkey's WHAT kind of damn crystals Luke used?
>No-one. They're simply ammunition to demolish the myth of a cohesive canon.
The matter is vague enough to let the canon remain cohesive.
[2]?
>> In fact, I never knew the Radio Dramas acknowledged Mara as a "Canon"
>> character!
>Indeed. There are even some .wav files of her on someone's site (Jade Crusades, I think) - though I don't
>think I ever imagined Mara with a Southern US accent :-)
I'll look the Radio Dramas up the next time I find 'em.
[3]?
>> Haven't read COTJ, and I sure as hell don't remember any other Bantam
>> books adding "new" Bounty-Hunters ...
>> Though, as you postulated, it is possible there were a LOT of them at
>> Ord Mantell.
>"That Bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell". Singular.
"We" ...
So Leia and all were only there for ONE major confrontation, while a
load of other BHs got wiped out on the sidelines! :)
> I think the 'second' new (or old) BH is a
>throwaway in KJA (again)....
Why does that not surprise me? :)
>> In Ann Crispin's books, Han has confrontations with 9+ hunters - and
>> if he was in the Ord Mantell system for over a month, no doubt they'd
>> be swarming like buzzards!
>Tenuous. It's tangled again....
It's logical.
>> >> [4]
>> >> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
>> >> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
[snip]
>Give me a break :-) I'm looking....
>> [5]
>> >> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
>> >> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
>> >> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
>> >> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
[snip]
>> Just got "I Jedi" out of the library - in the early chapters it says
>> the Rogues rescued Dodonna AFTER Thrawn's campaign.
>Sorry. That's clear, but people would know that Dodonna was alive and well after the X-wing books.
I haven't finished "Bacta Wars" yet, but I assume at the end Dodonna
and co are found to be missing from the recently-captured SSD - the
Rebs no doubt assume Iceheart spaced the POWs, and assume Dodonna's
dead.
Until the WEG senario occurs, of course - after Thrawn's demise.
[7]
>> >> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
>> >> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
>> >> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
>> >> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
>> She was given a task [TLC] - and when she failed, Palpy had no further
>> use for her.
>Come on! Mara is (a) one of the Emperor's best agents and (b) killed C'Baoth and the clone Luuke, not to
>mention all the other havoc she wreaked. And why would Palpy have let her get out of hand (and lose her
>Force-powers) if he survived? On top of this, she'd have made great Skywalker-bait. If DE knew about
>Thrawn (at least by the time they wrote the intros), why not Mara? Okay, I know, their choice, but it
>doesn't add up.
You're talking about the Trade Paperback intro?
I have a copy of the original monthly US first issue - IIRC the intro
was different ...
Anyway, Palpy had all the "Dark Empire" stuff going for him - clones,
World Devastators, etc - why bother with an ex-agent,
missing-believed-dead?
[snip]
>No! I don't expect rigid continuity! People get their facts wrong all the time (me included). That's the
>way it has to be.
ok.
>> As I've said, Lucasfilm screwed up - but since then they've papered
>> over the cracks pretty well....
>Really? Now this IS what worries me. The Lucasfilm continuity police (after the stormtrooper-precise start
>coordinating Zahn and the DE comics) seem to have imposed the WEG material as canon (even when - eg 5 mile
>SSDs) it seems to contradict the movies, and at the same time, they let everything else get messy.
WEG also enforces the "Solo shot first" scenario, NOT GL's SE
scenario!
The novels and comics are "Official", not part of the "canon" - they
are 2 seperate universes, and should be treated as such.
Think FASA vs TNG ...
[snip]
>> In other words, it'll be a MONTH - at bloody LEAST - until I can read
>> the new bloody Thrawn book!
>> Hey, I got "I, Jedi" out instead! Brand new copy, I'm the first person
>> to read it! :)
>Good luck on both books.
Thanks - I'll need it! :)
[snip]
[8???]
>> >is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
>>
>> but capital of WHO's Empire?
>Byss was destroyed in EE #2 as far as I know (haven't read it). Not exactly government centre material
>(tho' you could probably build a few Death Stars from it :-)
No! Don't say that, you'll give KJA ideas! :)
>> >> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
>> >> else would they be?
>>
>> >Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
>> >Rim.
>>
>> Well, it may be that there are 2 groups of Imperial worlds ...
>1/2 of which (take your choice of which lot) are ignored by everyone except Stackpole, depending on
>whether they're following Zahn or whoever thought up all the warlords. btw, where did the warlords come
>from?
Well, they started up in the power vacuum after Thrawn died ...
Of course, Zinsj started up a couple of years after ROTJ, when he
slipped Isard's leash.
So the warlords are Mid-Rim, and Palpy/Jax's lot are Deep Core ...
[9???]
>> >> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
>> >> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
>> >> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
>> >> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
>> >> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
>>
>> Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
>> the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
>Why not? Thrawn off-limits, or Ssi-Ruuk?
Well, the trouble is you have to become a WEG writer! :(
Besides, postage to the US is so damn expensive, it's hardly worth
applying! :(
[10??]
>> "General Lando Calrissian" ???
>> Hey, it's dumb, it sucks - but it's "Part of SW, GL's vision as
>> originall intended" ...
>Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, and
>THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
>Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels might
Lt, Capt, Maj, Colonel, General ...
Definitely Army command structure, but with one discrepancy.
"Colonel" commands a "Fighter Group" [Wing?]
"Commander" commands a Squadron.
But "Sqdn Cdr" is the equivalent of "Major" - so why did Phennir
become the former, not the latter?
>be allowed to get away with making Lando a General (exactly where 'Princess' sat in the Alliance rank
She was a Senator - a political bigwig in the political wing of the
Rebellion.
>structure always puzzled me :-) but for the Imps in their heyday, it's an utter mess!
So according to that comic the Imps used Earth Army ranking terms
instead of Earth Navy ranking terms.
>> Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
>>
>> Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed the
>> ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the Rogues ...
>Ingenious, but have a look at the last frame of CE #4!
umm ...
shit, man - you got me there!
>> >> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
>> <Spec turns to address K-Mac, Mike Stackpole, Ann Crispin, Rich and
>> any other VIPs who may be passing>
>>
>> Guys, Pol' and I were thinking - maybe you could consider writing about the ...
>LOL (again! this is getting worrying!)
Hey, I'm not the Official RASSM Chandler for nothing :)
>But seriously (or at least, not frivolously), what happened to them! Were they all aboard the DS III when
>KJA was wandering around with a pen and paper, and everyone's too embarassed to mention what happened?
I'm surprised Stackpole hasn't mentioned them.
OTOH, there are no books between Bakura and X-Wing, so there's room
for a few Del Ray books to start with! :)
[snip]
policraticus
Speculator wrote:
[snip]
> >Sorry! I'm citing from memory. SotE, pp.29-32. I don't have everything here with me (you didn't think I
> >was looking this all up?). Although it is admitted that "the best lightsabers used natural jewels, but
> >there weren't a lot of the kind he needed lying around where he could find them on Tatooine." (p.30), I
> >seem to recall (that prodigious memory again) that either Corusca Gems or Durindfires come from Tatooine.
> >The other lot are supposedly found in Yavin's heart. Or is it the same lot? I know there's a ref in "I,
> >Jedi", but I can't find it right now.
>
> Well, it seems there's enough room for doubt.
Or error. It's inherent.
> >> Besides, who gives a monkey's WHAT kind of damn crystals Luke used?
>
> >No-one. They're simply ammunition to demolish the myth of a cohesive canon.
>
> The matter is vague enough to let the canon remain cohesive.
In general terms, yes. The details contradict each other. There was even a scene in the movie (shot but cut, I
think - just found out about it) where Luke made his saber immediately before going off to Jabba (as he does in
the SW Radio Drama). This fundamentally contradicts SotE. Did Luke make two sabers :-)
> [2]?
> >> In fact, I never knew the Radio Dramas acknowledged Mara as a "Canon"
> >> character!
>
> >Indeed. There are even some .wav files of her on someone's site (Jade Crusades, I think) - though I don't
> >think I ever imagined Mara with a Southern US accent :-)
>
> I'll look the Radio Dramas up the next time I find 'em.
OK. Enjoy?
> [3]?
> >> Haven't read COTJ, and I sure as hell don't remember any other Bantam
> >> books adding "new" Bounty-Hunters ...
> >> Though, as you postulated, it is possible there were a LOT of them at
> >> Ord Mantell.
>
> >"That Bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell". Singular.
>
> "We" ...
>
> So Leia and all were only there for ONE major confrontation, while a
> load of other BHs got wiped out on the sidelines! :)
Ah, okay: "That bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell. You know, the one who we were all there to fight. Not
Fett, not [I forget the name - from CotJ], none of the others. The one you and I were there for.... "
> > I think the 'second' new (or old) BH is a
> >throwaway in KJA (again)....
>
> Why does that not surprise me? :)
> >> In Ann Crispin's books, Han has confrontations with 9+ hunters - and
> >> if he was in the Ord Mantell system for over a month, no doubt they'd
> >> be swarming like buzzards!
>
> >Tenuous. It's tangled again....
>
> It's logical.
No, it's a desperate way of reconciling a mess.
> >> >> [4]
> >> >> >> And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure there's AT LEAST
> >> >> >> one more - Dash Rendar?).
>
> [snip]
>
> >Give me a break :-) I'm looking....
>
> >> [5]
> >> >> > Jan Dodonna was reported as dead at the Imperial capture of Yavin
> >> >> >> (and exactly how long the Imps took to attack it is a matter of some dispute), and I think he
> >> >> >> is so reported in Zahn, while he then went and reappeared in DE, so I think (memory here)
> >> >> >> there was a WEG scenario to rescue him which Stackpole has just ignored.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> Just got "I Jedi" out of the library - in the early chapters it says
> >> the Rogues rescued Dodonna AFTER Thrawn's campaign.
>
> >Sorry. That's clear, but people would know that Dodonna was alive and well after the X-wing books.
>
> I haven't finished "Bacta Wars" yet, but I assume at the end Dodonna
> and co are found to be missing from the recently-captured SSD - the
> Rebs no doubt assume Iceheart spaced the POWs, and assume Dodonna's
> dead. Until the WEG senario occurs, of course - after Thrawn's demise.
I'll let you find out...
> [7]
> >> >> >> The Emperor's "last command" pretty much rules out the entire DE scenario, which Zahn
> >> >> >> (unsurprisingly) ignores in SotP. AND WHAT HAPPENED TO MARA IN DARK EMPIRE. ACCORDING TO THE
> >> >> >> SWAJ, SHE JUST HELPED THE REPUBLIC. WOULDN'T THE EMPEROR DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS WAYWARD HAND
> >> >> >> (sorry, that really bothered me. Jem Ysanna, anyone?);
>
> >> She was given a task [TLC] - and when she failed, Palpy had no further
> >> use for her.
>
> >Come on! Mara is (a) one of the Emperor's best agents and (b) killed C'Baoth and the clone Luuke, not to
> >mention all the other havoc she wreaked. And why would Palpy have let her get out of hand (and lose her
> >Force-powers) if he survived? On top of this, she'd have made great Skywalker-bait. If DE knew about
> >Thrawn (at least by the time they wrote the intros), why not Mara? Okay, I know, their choice, but it
> >doesn't add up.
>
> You're talking about the Trade Paperback intro?
>
> I have a copy of the original monthly US first issue - IIRC the intro
> was different ...
Did you just shoot yourself in the foot? :-)
> Anyway, Palpy had all the "Dark Empire" stuff going for him - clones,
> World Devastators, etc - why bother with an ex-agent,
> missing-believed-dead?
Let's see. Rather than use ancient dungeon ships, tenuous tractor-beams, and a gamble that Luke won't
kill/betray him, take over Mara again and use her as bait. It would have been a nice addition to the plot.
> [snip]
>
> >No! I don't expect rigid continuity! People get their facts wrong all the time (me included). That's the
> >way it has to be.
>
> ok.
>
> >> As I've said, Lucasfilm screwed up - but since then they've papered
> >> over the cracks pretty well....
>
> >Really? Now this IS what worries me. The Lucasfilm continuity police (after the stormtrooper-precise start
> >coordinating Zahn and the DE comics) seem to have imposed the WEG material as canon (even when - eg 5 mile
> >SSDs) it seems to contradict the movies, and at the same time, they let everything else get messy.
>
> WEG also enforces the "Solo shot first" scenario, NOT GL's SE
> scenario!
>
> The novels and comics are "Official", not part of the "canon" - they
> are 2 seperate universes, and should be treated as such.
>
> Think FASA vs TNG ...
FASA? What's at? Fair enough, but what's 'official' should be coherent (according to some people's definitions)
and certainly shouldn't contradict the canon. If you're watching ESB any time soon, watch out for a reference
to cloaking devices....
> [snip]
>
> [8???]
> >> >is mentioned as if it's still the Imperial capital - eight years after Empire's End.
> >>
> >> but capital of WHO's Empire?
>
> >Byss was destroyed in EE #2 as far as I know (haven't read it). Not exactly government centre material
> >(tho' you could probably build a few Death Stars from it :-)
>
> No! Don't say that, you'll give KJA ideas! :)
Oops. Nah. Byss is a convincing non-movie locale. KJA doesn't use 'em.
> >> >> well, they lost Coruscant, Correllia and the other Core Worlds - where
> >> >> else would they be?
> >>
> >> >Deep Core, like they are in KJA, Kube-Macdowell, etc. Hambly, to her credit, has Imperials in the Mid
> >> >Rim.
> >>
> >> Well, it may be that there are 2 groups of Imperial worlds ...
>
> >1/2 of which (take your choice of which lot) are ignored by everyone except Stackpole, depending on
> >whether they're following Zahn or whoever thought up all the warlords. btw, where did the warlords come
> >from?
>
> Well, they started up in the power vacuum after Thrawn died ...
>
> Of course, Zinsj started up a couple of years after ROTJ, when he
> slipped Isard's leash.
>
> So the warlords are Mid-Rim, and Palpy/Jax's lot are Deep Core ...
No no no no no.
Here comes a history of the Empire after Endor. Be warned. It makes very little sense.
Following Endor, Pestage and then Isard form a Coruscant-based Empire, although it is only force that keeps
people like Drommel, Derricote and Delvardus (warlords, not lawyers) in line. This seems rather different from
the Empire at this time being "kept together" by Pellaeon and the main Imperial Fleet. This, incidentally, was
not the largest, (30-odd ships out of 20,000) but the most important fleet, the one from Endor (though Harrsk
had apparently formed a Deep Core fief with some ships from Endor immediately after the Battle). This is the
Fleet and the Empire commanded latterly by Thrawn, though in the XWRS books, at least one line shows him to
have been in contact with Isard. Meanwhile - back to just after Endor - in the Deep Core, Palpy's back with the
"Dark Empire". [Did Stackpole borrowed Sate Pestage from Brendon Wahlberg's fanfic? This poses a very
interesting continuity problem]. And then, on the Rim, there's the Pentastar Alignment, which probably
comprises the bulk of Grand Moff Kaine's Outer Rim Oversector. With all these Empires - Palpy on Byss, Harrsk
and others in the Deep Core, Isard on Coruscant, Pellaeon in the Rim, and Kaine on the Outer Rim - where is the
New Republic?
Then, after Isard's fall, Zsinj takes over a chunk of her Empire. Exactly what happens to the rest isn't clear,
but by 5 years after Endor Zahn - writing first - seems to regard the Empire as being a still-cohesive unit,
now under Thrawn, and previously, Pellaeon, spanning 1/4 of the Galaxy. Hum.
Following Thrawn's death, Pellaeon (according to the TLC sourcebook) flees to the Unknown Regions, leaving the
(previously unheard-of) "Emperor's Inner Council" to take back Coruscant (!) and begin fighting amongst
themselves. Then, the Byss-based "Dark Empire" appears, and disappears. Another Imperial Council appears,
dominated by Carnor Jax, which seems to have control stretching from the Deep Core to the Outer Rim, and yet,
only months (if not weeks) after Crimson Empire....
...along comes KJA, who makes Carida the only Imperial outpost apart from the Deep Core Warlords. This seems to
be accepted by most authors, and in "Darksaber", the Deep Core warlords are united by Daala, who after failing
miserably, seems to pass command to Pellaeon, promising to serve under him.
But, in Planet of Twilight, Barbra Hambly introduces an Imperial sector in the Mid Rim, still under its Moff,
and apparently bordering other Imperial space, while Daala's retired!
By the time of K-Mac's books, the Empire seems redced to insignificant Deep Core warlords again, who the
Republic is no longer interested in, and, if there are some tenuous sector authorities (Shield of Lies, p.79),
the planetary Governors are effectively independant. K-Mac also claims that the Empire was divided, not into
Sector fleets, but "Commands". If Black Sword Command is typical, these controled several sectors, and had
upwards of 40 ships, including several Super Star Destroyers each, even though, on seeing the Knight Hammer,
Pellaeon said "only the Executor was this big, and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire"
(Darksaber, p.140. I'm not even going to mention Iron Fist here, let alone Reaper, Aggressor, Guardian,
Lusankya, Terror, Vengance, the illusive Overlord, or the even bigger Eclipse and Eclipse II). Also, K-Mac
claims that there are several shipyards in each Command. Zahn had given the Empire a total of three major
yards.
And then, in Specter of the Past, what do we find? (FACTS - I.E. POSSIBLE SPOILERS - AHEAD). The Empire
consists of eight Sectors in the Mid Rim. It is ruled by a Council of Moffs, one per sector, with Pellaeon as
military commander and has Sector Fleets under the Moffs, and apparently the independant Grand Fleet still
survives under Pellaeon's direct command (the rough maths (8x13 < 200 - don't ask) shows that not all the SDs
are in the Sector Fleets). Pellaeon has also got back the Chimaera from somewhere. And there are quadruple the
number of ISDs that Daala had scraped together seven years earlier - 200 plays 45.
Or, to put it another way, Zahn, Stackpole, KJA, K-Mac and Hambly all contradict each other horribly.
> [9???]
> >> >> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
> >> >> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> >> >> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> >> >> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> >> >> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And while
> >>
> >> Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
> >> the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
>
> >Why not? Thrawn off-limits, or Ssi-Ruuk?
>
> Well, the trouble is you have to become a WEG writer! :(
>
> Besides, postage to the US is so damn expensive, it's hardly worth
> applying! :(
The Orb doesn't sell the SWAJ, does it (or if not, where do I look)?
> [10??]
> >> "General Lando Calrissian" ???
> >> Hey, it's dumb, it sucks - but it's "Part of SW, GL's vision as
> >> originall intended" ...
>
> >Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, and
> >THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
> >Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels might
>
> Lt, Capt, Maj, Colonel, General ...
>
> Definitely Army command structure, but with one discrepancy.
>
> "Colonel" commands a "Fighter Group" [Wing?]
> "Commander" commands a Squadron.
>
> But "Sqdn Cdr" is the equivalent of "Major" - so why did Phennir
> become the former, not the latter?
The confusion's worse than this. In the Hutt Gambit, Fel's second-in-command is a Commander. So unless he
actually gets demoted - and severely - after the Rand Ecliptic defection, there's a big problem here. And even
so, the ranks are fouled up.
The films (and Zahn, I think) consistently use RAF ranks (Lieutenant, (Squadron) Leader, (Wing) Commander), and
NEVER army ones, until one gets these Generals in RotJ
(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just made the original 9?? It's the 'easy'
ending of RotJ - Palpy, Vader, DS destroyed, so Empire fallen - that causes the main problem. And btw, doesn't
the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
Sorry. Got a bit carried away....
> >be allowed to get away with making Lando a General (exactly where 'Princess' sat in the Alliance rank
>
> She was a Senator - a political bigwig in the political wing of the
> Rebellion.
So they send her as second-in-command of a commando raid on Endor?
> >structure always puzzled me :-) but for the Imps in their heyday, it's an utter mess!
>
> So according to that comic the Imps used Earth Army ranking terms
> instead of Earth Navy ranking terms.
No. There is a serious confusion as to the ranks of 'Captain' and 'Commander', partly caused by their being
transposed in the WEG books, partly by the confusion of the Naval and Army ranks - and partly by the confusion
caused by Lucas' use of RAF ranks (unfamiliar, I would imagine, in the USA).
> >> Actually, we don't KNOW it was the Rogues themselves.
> >>
> >> Think about it - the Imps say it's them, but perhaps they changed the
> >> ships' transponders to make themselves APPEAR to be the Rogues ...
>
> >Ingenious, but have a look at the last frame of CE #4!
>
> umm ...
>
> shit, man - you got me there!
hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge Antilles (well, neither of them look like
Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and far far away.
> >> >> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
>
> >> <Spec turns to address K-Mac, Mike Stackpole, Ann Crispin, Rich and
> >> any other VIPs who may be passing>
> >>
> >> Guys, Pol' and I were thinking - maybe you could consider writing about the ...
>
> >LOL (again! this is getting worrying!)
>
> Hey, I'm not the Official RASSM Chandler for nothing :)
>
> >But seriously (or at least, not frivolously), what happened to them! Were they all aboard the DS III when
> >KJA was wandering around with a pen and paper, and everyone's too embarassed to mention what happened?
>
> I'm surprised Stackpole hasn't mentioned them.
>
> OTOH, there are no books between Bakura and X-Wing, so there's room
> for a few Del Ray books to start with! :)
Just so long as they don't ask KJA. But the X-Wing comics, I thought, began 6 months after Endor. No Grand
Admirals in sight. And if they were all as good as Thrawn....
In fact, the entire novel timeline's a load of nonsense. I'm sorry, the sheer improbability of the Rebel
success has just dawned on me. At Endor, they destroy the Death Star, and the Empire starts collapsing? Just
like that? And okay, even if, as Thrawn said, the Emperor had held together the Fleet with the Force, it has
such a massive structure - and eleven Grand Admirals - that the whole thing would either fall instantly (SW:SE)
or last better than it does in the novels. Perhaps the Grand Admirals and everyone else important all killed
each other in a race to the top of the greasy pole, but then, how d'you explain the Imperial 'Ruling Councils'
that appear at least twice to paper over the cracks in the continuity.
I'm confused. Almost as much as the continuity.
Policrat'
Joe Student
policraticus wrote:
> No no no no no.
>
> Here comes a history of the Empire after Endor. Be warned. It makes very little sense.
>
> Following Endor, Pestage and then Isard form a Coruscant-based Empire, although it is only force that keeps
> people like Drommel, Derricote and Delvardus (warlords, not lawyers) in line.
Yes. By and large, the the warlords respected the power of Isard and Pestage on Coruscant. it was a symbolic thing.
The first few months see confusion in the Imperial forces - who is in charge? - but this reverts to taking orders
from the capital. At this point, the chain-of-command seems largely intact.
> This seems rather different from
> the Empire at this time being "kept together" by Pellaeon and the main Imperial Fleet.
Not necessarily. The bulk of the fleet seems loyal to whoever is in charge of Coruscant. Powerful warlords like
Zsinj and co don't move on Coruscant because of this. The ISD captain Sair Yonka makes mention of this in 'The
Bacta War.'
> This, incidentally, was
> not the largest, (30-odd ships out of 20,000) but the most important fleet, the one from Endor (though Harrsk
> had apparently formed a Deep Core fief with some ships from Endor immediately after the Battle).
Yes. 'Truce at Bakura' mentions the fleet regrouping at Annaj (sp?), but where it goes after that is unknown. I can
imagine opportunists like Harrsk taking his loyal ships with him.
> This is the
> Fleet and the Empire commanded latterly by Thrawn, though in the XWRS books, at least one line shows him to
> have been in contact with Isard.
There has been speculation by others in the ng that Isard kept him in the dark. Note in 'The Making of Baron Fel'
how Thrawn was relegated to the background after the victory at Derra IV even though he planned the attack.
> Meanwhile - back to just after Endor - in the Deep Core, Palpy's back with the
> "Dark Empire". [Did Stackpole borrowed Sate Pestage from Brendon Wahlberg's fanfic? This poses a very
> interesting continuity problem].
From my impression, the main DE comic does not make mention of Pestage - I can't remember if he is in the text end
notes or not. The comics have him ruling Coruscant for several months while Isard undermines him. Eventually she
forces him to flee to the Deep Core - how this happens we have not seen yet. How much of DE will the RS comics hint
at?
> And then, on the Rim, there's the Pentastar Alignment, which probably
> comprises the bulk of Grand Moff Kaine's Outer Rim Oversector.
I don't know as much about this - I only have a few of the SWAJ's.
> With all these Empires - Palpy on Byss, Harrsk
> and others in the Deep Core, Isard on Coruscant, Pellaeon in the Rim, and Kaine on the Outer Rim - where is the
> New Republic?
Initially, it isn't. As Imperial authority fragments and the warlords begin fighting amongst themselves, the NR
begins to sieze the day. We don't see the NR actually moving to militarily conquer a world until 'In Service to the
Empire', approx 6 months after Endor. It's hinted that some warlords defect to the NR, and at first, the NR isn't
regarded as important by the others. (The first RS novel says most warlords are adopting a 'wait and see'
attitude). Isard and Pestage regard them as a threat, and perhaps that reduces them in the eyes of the warlords who
think the NR is weak.
And remember, just because Pellaeon is in the Rim, and Pentastar Alignment is in the Outer Rim, that does not mean
that they have iron-clad control over their territories. Just as the warlords break away from Coruscant, they are
also losing authority over their own territories (even if this is - at first - a slow process.).
> Then, after Isard's fall, Zsinj takes over a chunk of her Empire.
Coruscant falls approx 3.5 years after Endor (IIRC). What loyalty the bulk of the Imp fleet has to Isard is gone as
she no longer controls the symbol of authority. I would say a fair chunk of the Rim and Outer Rim go over to
Pellaeon, the rest to various warlords. With this final fracturing of the Imperial fleet, the NR begins to hunt
down individual warlords like Zsinj.
> Exactly what happens to the rest isn't clear,
> but by 5 years after Endor Zahn - writing first - seems to regard the Empire as being a still-cohesive unit,
> now under Thrawn, and previously, Pellaeon, spanning 1/4 of the Galaxy. Hum.
From my impression, the majority of cohesive Imperial power falls under Pellaeon and Thrawn. There are pockets of
Imperial warlords left scattered around, but they are mainly interested in holding on to what they have. Thrawn
returns from the Unknown Regions approx 4.5 years after Endor.
> Following Thrawn's death, Pellaeon (according to the TLC sourcebook) flees to the Unknown Regions, leaving the
> (previously unheard-of) "Emperor's Inner Council" to take back Coruscant (!) and begin fighting amongst
> themselves
This is a hiccup in the continuity that I can't explain. Perhaps the DE sourcebook explains it. I have no idea who
these 'Inner Circle' guys are, but they may be some of the surviving warlords and advisors (seen in the RS comics
arguing to overthrow Pestage) who have joined forces.
> Then, the Byss-based "Dark Empire" appears, and disappears.
A 'huge warfleet' emerges from the Deep Core and takes most the Galactic Core regions. The NR is in full retreat
with, I assume, its main fleets exhausted and out of position (previously they were fighting Thrawn on the Rim).
Across the galaxy the NR is being called the rebellion again. I assume Pellaeon and the Rim fleets join forces with
the Deep Core.
The Emperor is killed by Luke and Leia (kinda), the war machine is thrown into confusion. The Emperor's Darks Side
Adepts attempt a coup, which Military Executor Sedriss puts an end to. The Emperor returns again (wince),
'Operation Shadow Hand' commences, but the final death of the Emperor at Onderon causes the Imperial fleet to
fragment again. The NR again takes advantage, pushing the feuding Imps out of the Core.
> Another Imperial Council appears,
> dominated by Carnor Jax, which seems to have control stretching from the Deep Core to the Outer Rim, and yet,
> only months (if not weeks) after Crimson Empire....
Does it say Jax 'dominates' the Council? I thought he was just a member *seeking* more power. Anyway, the Coucil
seems to have tenuous control over the Deep Core, perhaps of some of the territories around the galaxy (Phaeda
etc).
> ...along comes KJA, who makes Carida the only Imperial outpost apart from the Deep Core Warlords. This seems to
> be accepted by most authors, and in "Darksaber", the Deep Core warlords are united by Daala, who after failing
> miserably, seems to pass command to Pellaeon, promising to serve under him.
Up until about JA3, I have no real problem with the timeline. About here it goes a bit wonky. Mon Mothma shows
Furgan a map of the galaxy, in which the Empire controls the Deep Core, and parts of the Outer Rim, perhaps some
isolated worlds in between. After the final defeat of the Empire, it appears many of the neutral and borderline
worlds went over to the NR. My problem is that it happened too quickly.
> But, in Planet of Twilight, Barbra Hambly introduces an Imperial sector in the Mid Rim, still under its Moff,
> and apparently bordering other Imperial space, while Daala's retired!
See above. The vast bulk of the galaxy from Core to Rim seems to have gone over to the Republic. A sector is a lot
of space and worlds, but is probably insignificant compared to NR space.
> By the time of K-Mac's books, the Empire seems reduced to insignificant Deep Core warlords again, who the
> Republic is no longer interested in, and, if there are some tenuous sector authorities (Shield of Lies, p.79),
> the planetary Governors are effectively independant.
By now any pretence at centralised Imperial authority is gone, the Deep Core warlords are at open war with one
another. Surviving warlords from other parts of the galaxy (Harssk etc) seemed to have ended up here - perhaps they
attached themselves with the cloned Emperor and retreated to the DC when he died.
AFAIK, the NR has little information on the DC worlds, and due to the Imperial disunity there, is not interested in
conquering them. From the Senate debates, the galaxy seems to have tired of war.
> K-Mac also claims that the Empire was divided, not into
> Sector fleets, but "Commands". If Black Sword Command is typical, these controled several sectors, and had
> upwards of 40 ships, including several Super Star Destroyers each
These could be the remnants of the fleets of Grand Moffs. They controlled several sectors at once, and had personal
fleets not related to the 'sector fleets' which protected given territories.
> , even though, on seeing the Knight Hammer,
> Pellaeon said "only the Executor was this big, and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire"
> (Darksaber, p.140. I'm not even going to mention Iron Fist here, let alone Reaper, Aggressor, Guardian,
> Lusankya, Terror, Vengance, the illusive Overlord, or the even bigger Eclipse and Eclipse II).
This is just a screw up on KJA's behalf. They built the Death Star I & 2, but a SSD nearly bankrupted the Empire?
Even given massive cost overruns and design problems they wouldn't even approach the DS costs. I'm not familiar
with the Overlord SSD. And let's not forget the Sovereign-class SD's, nor the unusual Allegiance SSD seen in DE.
> Also, K-Mac
> claims that there are several shipyards in each Command. Zahn had given the Empire a total of three major
> yards.
At the time when the Empire ruled unquestioned, Black Sword Command had several shipyards at its disposal. By
'Spectre of the Past', the Empire is reduced to eight sectors or so and a couple of hundred SD's.
> And then, in Specter of the Past, what do we find? (FACTS - I.E. POSSIBLE SPOILERS - AHEAD). The Empire
> consists of eight Sectors in the Mid Rim.
I was under the mpression it was the Outer Rim...
> It is ruled by a Council of Moffs, one per sector, with Pellaeon as
> military commander and has Sector Fleets under the Moffs, and apparently the independant Grand Fleet still
> survives under Pellaeon's direct command (the rough maths (8x13 < 200 - don't ask) shows that not all the SDs
> are in the Sector Fleets).
It doesn't specify when this council was formed, but the fleets could have been attrited severely by the time the
fighting wound down. The Outer Rim probably isn't abounding with shipyards, or most have been destroyed. It is
implied that, like under Thrawn, Pellaeon has a personal battle fleet, but most of the other SD's are tied down on
sector patrol.
> Pellaeon has also got back the Chimaera from somewhere. And there are quadruple the
> number of ISDs that Daala had scraped together seven years earlier - 200 plays 45.
The relationship between the DC warlords and the Outer Rim Moffs wasn't explained. (I think Zahn is attempting to
repair the damage by ignoring all these issues). Where the Chimaera came from - who knows?KJA seems to severely
understimate the scope of the struggle - Daala goes to war against the NR with 45 SD's, about 70 (?) or so VSD's
and an SSD. She really shouldn't have a chance. I think Zahn was the first to state the size of the Imp fleet in a
novel - about 25,000 SD's at the height of its power.
> Or, to put it another way, Zahn, Stackpole, KJA, K-Mac and Hambly all contradict each other horribly.
The worst damage was done by KJA. The Empire goes from struggling superpower to ineffective losers in about a year
or less. The fate of Pellaeon and the Rim/Outer Rim forces is left hanging for years - they lost at Bilbingri, but
still controlled about 1/2 the galaxy at the time of DE. How did the NR gain that territory so quickly?
> > >> >> > And, more importantly for all of us, what
> > >> >> >> happened to the ships (a fleet, I presume), that Thrawn had in the Unknown Regions. A careful
> > >> >> >> reading of Stackpole and Zahn would suggest that at least one ship (Inexorable) was in the
> > >> >> >> Unknown Regions, and then in the fleet in the Zahn trilogy, but there's no mention of Dagon
> > >> >> >> Nriz and the Admonitor (Thrawn's Unknown Regions flagship) or the rest of his fleet. And
I don't know who wrote the above. Oh well. The fate of the Unknown Regions may be resolved in 'SotP'.
> > >> Thanks - I was thinking of writing a "Thrawn vs Ssi-Ruuk" story for
> > >> the SWAJ, or even a full SW novel, but alas, it was not to be. :-(
That would be an interesting resolve to that thread. 'Truce' has a small scout force being defeated, so what
happened next? In 'Jedi Search' Mon Mothma mentions scout ships looking over the remains of the Ssi-Ruuk
Imperium...did Thrawn 'happen' to them? :)
> > >Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, > > and
> > >THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
> > >Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels
This is one of my biggest beefs. I fired off a letter to DHC about this, but no response. :(
> (does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just made the original 9?? It's the 'easy'
> ending of RotJ - Palpy, Vader, DS destroyed, so Empire fallen - that causes the main problem. And btw, doesn't
> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
It seems to, but is actually easy to fix. Mass celebrations by those unhappy under the Empire, fade to credits,
Isard's stormtroopers march in and kill the lot.
> .> >> >> >> And what happened to the other 11 Grand Admirals?
Dunno. The first RS comic series makes mention of a GA, but I think it doesn't count. The first few issues were a
bit, ah, messy in terms of continuity. Like SOTE:E, it implies the Empire has largely collapsed (and this is one
month after Endor!), and the Rogues are busy stamping out the small remnants. After the first four issues it all
gets sorted out, and series goes from strength to strength, with the Empire still largely cohesive.
> > OTOH, there are no books between Bakura and X-Wing, so there's room
> > for a few Del Ray books to start with! :)
Interesting to see how they work around the RS comics. Wedge and co very well may be out of bounds for a while.
> Just so long as they don't ask KJA. But the X-Wing comics, I thought, began 6 months after Endor. No Grand
> Admirals in sight. And if they were all as good as Thrawn....
Actually, they seem to start about 1 month. The current 'Masquerade' story is about 7 months post-Endor, I think.
> In fact, the entire novel timeline's a load of nonsense. I'm sorry, the sheer improbability of the Rebel
> success has just dawned on me. At Endor, they destroy the Death Star, and the Empire starts collapsing? Just
> like that?
Well, no. It really starts falling to pieces about 3.5 years PE, when Isard loses Coruscant. With a strong central
authority gone, the Empire's collapse was inevitable. My real concern is that post-DE, the timeline is a mess.
> And okay, even if, as Thrawn said, the Emperor had held together the Fleet with the Force, it has
> such a massive structure - and eleven Grand Admirals - that the whole thing would either fall instantly (SW:SE)
> or last better than it does in the novels. Perhaps the Grand Admirals and everyone else important all killed
> each other in a race to the top of the greasy pole, but then, how d'you explain the Imperial 'Ruling Councils'
> that appear at least twice to paper over the cracks in the continuity.
I'd like to see references in the novels to huge battles between Imp fleets. It would explain how the bigger
warlords like Zsinj lost their grip.
> I'm confused. Almost as much as the continuity.
>
> Policrat'
It certainly could be tightened up a lot. Man, that took ages to write!
OtterPop 1
On Thu, May 14, 1998 17:41 EDT, policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>And then, in Specter of the Past, what do we find? (FACTS -
>I.E. POSSIBLE SPOILERS - AHEAD). The Empire
>consists of eight Sectors in the Mid Rim.
It's the Outer Rim, actually ... specifically "the edge of the boundary between
the Outer Rim worlds and the vast regions of territory known as Unknown Space."
(p.1 of SOP)
Dan
policraticus
> > This seems rather different from
> > the Empire at this time being "kept together" by Pellaeon and the main Imperial Fleet.
>
> Not necessarily. The bulk of the fleet seems loyal to whoever is in charge of Coruscant. Powerful warlords like
> Zsinj and co don't move on Coruscant because of this. The ISD captain Sair Yonka makes mention of this in 'The
> Bacta War.'
>
That's not the impression in the Zahn Trilogy, where Pellaeon seems to have been trying to keep the Empire on its feet
for five years while the command structure disintegrated. If Isard (or anyone else) had been in charge, they would
surely have appointed a new admiral (Zsinj? Roek with the Aggressor?) to succeed Piet. Pellaeon's situation between
Endor and Thrawn implies that there was no chain of command at all.
> > This, incidentally, was
> > not the largest, (30-odd ships out of 20,000) but the most important fleet, the one from Endor (though Harrsk
> > had apparently formed a Deep Core fief with some ships from Endor immediately after the Battle).
>
> Yes. 'Truce at Bakura' mentions the fleet regrouping at Annaj (sp?), but where it goes after that is unknown. I can
> imagine opportunists like Harrsk taking his loyal ships with him.
KJA makes out that Harrsk took off with a few ships in a different direction from Pellaeon and the bulk of the Fleet.
> > This is the
> > Fleet and the Empire commanded latterly by Thrawn, though in the XWRS books, at least one line shows him to
> > have been in contact with Isard.
>
> There has been speculation by others in the ng that Isard kept him in the dark. Note in 'The Making of Baron Fel'
> how Thrawn was relegated to the background after the victory at Derra IV even though he planned the attack.
Isard keeping Thrawn in the dark? Credible?
> > Meanwhile - back to just after Endor - in the Deep Core, Palpy's back with the
> > "Dark Empire". [Did Stackpole borrowed Sate Pestage from Brendon Wahlberg's fanfic? This poses a very
> > interesting continuity problem].
>
> From my impression, the main DE comic does not make mention of Pestage - I can't remember if he is in the text end
> notes or not. The comics have him ruling Coruscant for several months while Isard undermines him. Eventually she
> forces him to flee to the Deep Core - how this happens we have not seen yet. How much of DE will the RS comics hint
> at?
Pestage isn't in DE at all. Maybe he appears in the RotJ novel (not read it) as one of the courtiers with Palpy, but
otherwise, Wahlberg (fanfic at theForce.net) seems to introduce him.
[snip]
> And remember, just because Pellaeon is in the Rim, and Pentastar Alignment is in the Outer Rim, that does not mean
> that they have iron-clad control over their territories. Just as the warlords break away from Coruscant, they are
> also losing authority over their own territories (even if this is - at first - a slow process.).
All the same, it would be a lot easier for them to stop the NR taking power anywhere than it would to suppress local
discontent.
> > Then, after Isard's fall, Zsinj takes over a chunk of her Empire.
>
> Coruscant falls approx 3.5 years after Endor (IIRC). What loyalty the bulk of the Imp fleet has to Isard is gone as
> she no longer controls the symbol of authority. I would say a fair chunk of the Rim and Outer Rim go over to
> Pellaeon, the rest to various warlords. With this final fracturing of the Imperial fleet, the NR begins to hunt
> down individual warlords like Zsinj.
>
> > Exactly what happens to the rest isn't clear,
> > but by 5 years after Endor Zahn - writing first - seems to regard the Empire as being a still-cohesive unit,
> > now under Thrawn, and previously, Pellaeon, spanning 1/4 of the Galaxy. Hum.
>
> From my impression, the majority of cohesive Imperial power falls under Pellaeon and Thrawn. There are pockets of
> Imperial warlords left scattered around, but they are mainly interested in holding on to what they have. Thrawn
> returns from the Unknown Regions approx 4.5 years after Endor.
Okay. This is the MAJOR threat to the Republic. Not Zsinj, not Harrsk, the cohesive quarter of the Galaxy (still with
major worlds like Muunilinst) that's Imperial. So between Wedge's Gamble and Heir to the Empire (2+ yrs) the Repubic
ingnores it? As they do from KJA to SotP?
> > Following Thrawn's death, Pellaeon (according to the TLC sourcebook) flees to the Unknown Regions, leaving the
> > (previously unheard-of) "Emperor's Inner Council" to take back Coruscant (!) and begin fighting amongst
> > themselves
>
> This is a hiccup in the continuity that I can't explain. Perhaps the DE sourcebook explains it. I have no idea who
> these 'Inner Circle' guys are, but they may be some of the surviving warlords and advisors (seen in the RS comics
> arguing to overthrow Pestage) who have joined forces.
>
No, they're pure and simple nonsense.
> > Then, the Byss-based "Dark Empire" appears, and disappears.
>
> A 'huge warfleet' emerges from the Deep Core and takes most the Galactic Core regions. The NR is in full retreat
> with, I assume, its main fleets exhausted and out of position (previously they were fighting Thrawn on the Rim).
> Across the galaxy the NR is being called the rebellion again. I assume Pellaeon and the Rim fleets join forces with
> the Deep Core.
>
> The Emperor is killed by Luke and Leia (kinda), the war machine is thrown into confusion. The Emperor's Darks Side
> Adepts attempt a coup, which Military Executor Sedriss puts an end to. The Emperor returns again (wince),
> 'Operation Shadow Hand' commences, but the final death of the Emperor at Onderon causes the Imperial fleet to
> fragment again. The NR again takes advantage, pushing the feuding Imps out of the Core.
Tenuous. Why did Palpy wait 5 years?
> > Another Imperial Council appears,
> > dominated by Carnor Jax, which seems to have control stretching from the Deep Core to the Outer Rim, and yet,
> > only months (if not weeks) after Crimson Empire....
>
> Does it say Jax 'dominates' the Council? I thought he was just a member *seeking* more power. Anyway, the Coucil
> seems to have tenuous control over the Deep Core, perhaps of some of the territories around the galaxy (Phaeda
> etc).
No, Jax and Wessel between them have blackmailed the Council into compliance. (CE #0 at starwars.com). Jax can also
strongarm Wessel fairly easily. If he's acting the Darth Vader, he's got Vader's power, and wants to become Emperor.
> > ...along comes KJA, who makes Carida the only Imperial outpost apart from the Deep Core Warlords. This seems to
> > be accepted by most authors, and in "Darksaber", the Deep Core warlords are united by Daala, who after failing
> > miserably, seems to pass command to Pellaeon, promising to serve under him.
>
> Up until about JA3, I have no real problem with the timeline. About here it goes a bit wonky. Mon Mothma shows
> Furgan a map of the galaxy, in which the Empire controls the Deep Core, and parts of the Outer Rim, perhaps some
> isolated worlds in between. After the final defeat of the Empire, it appears many of the neutral and borderline
> worlds went over to the NR. My problem is that it happened too quickly.
>
> > But, in Planet of Twilight, Barbra Hambly introduces an Imperial sector in the Mid Rim, still under its Moff,
> > and apparently bordering other Imperial space, while Daala's retired!
>
> See above. The vast bulk of the galaxy from Core to Rim seems to have gone over to the Republic. A sector is a lot
> of space and worlds, but is probably insignificant compared to NR space.
Okay, but it shouldn't have.
> > By the time of K-Mac's books, the Empire seems reduced to insignificant Deep Core warlords again, who the
> > Republic is no longer interested in, and, if there are some tenuous sector authorities (Shield of Lies, p.79),
> > the planetary Governors are effectively independant.
>
> By now any pretence at centralised Imperial authority is gone, the Deep Core warlords are at open war with one
> another. Surviving warlords from other parts of the galaxy (Harssk etc)
Harrsk was always a Core warlord - at least according to KJA
> seemed to have ended up here - perhaps they
> attached themselves with the cloned Emperor and retreated to the DC when he died.
>
> AFAIK, the NR has little information on the DC worlds, and due to the Imperial disunity there, is not interested in
> conquering them. From the Senate debates, the galaxy seems to have tired of war.
>
> > K-Mac also claims that the Empire was divided, not into
> > Sector fleets, but "Commands". If Black Sword Command is typical, these controled several sectors, and had
> > upwards of 40 ships, including several Super Star Destroyers each
>
> These could be the remnants of the fleets of Grand Moffs. They controlled several sectors at once, and had personal
> fleets not related to the 'sector fleets' which protected given territories.
Nope. GMs command Oversectors - Inner, Mid and Outer Rim, Deep Core and the important bid (with the main worlds) I
always forget the name of. K-Mac just re-wrote the strategic map of the Galaxy.
> > , even though, on seeing the Knight Hammer,
> > Pellaeon said "only the Executor was this big, and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire"
> > (Darksaber, p.140. I'm not even going to mention Iron Fist here, let alone Reaper, Aggressor, Guardian,
> > Lusankya, Terror, Vengance, the illusive Overlord, or the even bigger Eclipse and Eclipse II).
>
> This is just a screw up on KJA's behalf. They built the Death Star I & 2, but a SSD nearly bankrupted the Empire?
> Even given massive cost overruns and design problems they wouldn't even approach the DS costs. I'm not familiar
> with the Overlord SSD. And let's not forget the Sovereign-class SD's, nor the unusual Allegiance SSD seen in DE.
That's the point. KJA's contradicting everyone else (except, possibly, Zahn).
> > Also, K-Mac
> > claims that there are several shipyards in each Command. Zahn had given the Empire a total of three major
> > yards.
>
> At the time when the Empire ruled unquestioned, Black Sword Command had several shipyards at its disposal. By
> 'Spectre of the Past', the Empire is reduced to eight sectors or so and a couple of hundred SD's.
No. In the original Zahn books, there are three shipyards - Ord Trasi, Bilbringi and Yaga Minor, I think. Three, in 1/4
of the Galaxy. And Black Sword (less than 4 sectors) has dozens??
> > And then, in Specter of the Past, what do we find? (FACTS - I.E. POSSIBLE SPOILERS - AHEAD). The Empire
> > consists of eight Sectors in the Mid Rim.
>
> I was under the mpression it was the Outer Rim...
OK, as OtterPop said. But the remaining shipyard (Yaga Minor?) is in the Mid Rim, I think (?)
> > It is ruled by a Council of Moffs, one per sector, with Pellaeon as
> > military commander and has Sector Fleets under the Moffs, and apparently the independant Grand Fleet still
> > survives under Pellaeon's direct command (the rough maths (8x13 < 200 - don't ask) shows that not all the SDs
> > are in the Sector Fleets).
>
> It doesn't specify when this council was formed,
The idea of "eight surviving Moffs" implies that they go right back.
> but the fleets could have been attrited severely by the time the
> fighting wound down. The Outer Rim probably isn't abounding with shipyards, or most have been destroyed. It is
> implied that, like under Thrawn, Pellaeon has a personal battle fleet, but most of the other SD's are tied down on
> sector patrol.
No. Braxant, the most important sector, has 13 SDs, giving a rough maximum of 8x13=104, so, say, 100 SDs in the Sector
Fleets. That leaves about 100 more under Pellaeon's command for a main task force and other duties.
> > Pellaeon has also got back the Chimaera from somewhere. And there are quadruple the
> > number of ISDs that Daala had scraped together seven years earlier - 200 plays 45.
>
> The relationship between the DC warlords and the Outer Rim Moffs wasn't explained. (I think Zahn is attempting to
> repair the damage by ignoring all these issues). Where the Chimaera came from - who knows?KJA seems to severely
> understimate the scope of the struggle - Daala goes to war against the NR with 45 SD's, about 70 (?) or so VSD's
> and an SSD. She really shouldn't have a chance. I think Zahn was the first to state the size of the Imp fleet in a
> novel - about 25,000 SD's at the height of its power.
OK. KJA made a mess. But he's not the only one.
> > Or, to put it another way, Zahn, Stackpole, KJA, K-Mac and Hambly all contradict each other horribly.
>
> The worst damage was done by KJA. The Empire goes from struggling superpower to ineffective losers in about a year
> or less. The fate of Pellaeon and the Rim/Outer Rim forces is left hanging for years - they lost at Bilbingri, but
> still controlled about 1/2 the galaxy at the time of DE. How did the NR gain that territory so quickly?
Right. And given that Pellaeon's Empire is pretty clearly not the Empire of Isard or Zsinj etc, there are at least two,
if not 4, continuities. Here's a wee sketch of how they diverge:
Stackpole continuity
(RS, WraithS, CoPL)
/ \
? \
/ \
Zahn continuity Dark Empire
(HttE, DFR, TLC, SotP, VotF) / \
/ \
Crimson KJA
Empire
Exactly where Hambly and K-Mac go, I don't know[snip]
> That would be an interesting resolve to that thread. 'Truce' has a small scout force being defeated, so what
> happened next? In 'Jedi Search' Mon Mothma mentions scout ships looking over the remains of the Ssi-Ruuk
> Imperium...did Thrawn 'happen' to them? :)
Interesting thought. Probably. Remember that one race whose art he didn't understand?.
> > > >Sure, but 'Captain' Fel, commanding a Dreadnaught, expecting a Destroyer, being promoted to Major, > > and
> > > >THEN Commander (or is it vice versa? any way, it's wrong, on all 3 counts!) under the Command of a
> > > >Colonel... All in one comic-book. ("Making of Baron Fel"). The SW rank system is a mess. The Rebels
>
> This is one of my biggest beefs. I fired off a letter to DHC about this, but no response. :(
Glad to hear someone else agrees :-)
> It seems to, but is actually easy to fix. Mass celebrations by those unhappy under the Empire, fade to credits,
> Isard's stormtroopers march in and kill the lot.
Hardly the way GL intended it.
[snip]
> > I'm confused. Almost as much as the continuity.
>
> It certainly could be tightened up a lot. Man, that took ages to write!
Thanks for agreeing! :-)
Policrat'.
Brendon J Wahlberg
In article <355C03A6...@yahoo.com>,
>> "Dark Empire". [Did Stackpole borrowed Sate Pestage from Brendon Wahlberg's fanfic? This poses a very
>> interesting continuity problem].
>From my impression, the main DE comic does not make mention of Pestage - I can't remember if he is in the text end
>notes or not. The comics have him ruling Coruscant for several months while Isard undermines him. Eventually she
>forces him to flee to the Deep Core - how this happens we have not seen yet. How much of DE will the RS comics hint
>at?
Hi, as the one who wrote that fanfic, I thought I'd chime in. I snipped most
of this fantastic analysis, but you are both impressive fans. Sate Pestage
came from an early draft of TESB. Originally Sate Molock (sp?), he appears
in my copy of draft 4 as Sate Pestage, the Grand Vizier. When Vader is summoned
to speak to the Emperor, he has to wait, and must talk to Pestage first.
Pestage, in a very small scene, warns Vader that the Emperor is in a foul
mood. Obviously this did not get into the film.
Sate Pestage is expanded upon in the WEG Dark Empire Sourcebook. It is
this version that I used in my fan fiction, adding a little history to
the character. I think Stackpole has screwed with the history set out
in the DE Sourcebook. A comparison of the two seems to be necessary.
I just think that the DE sourcebook, having been published first, should
have been used by Stackpole. I went back to my story and tried to allow
for Stackpole's additions, but now with Pestage becoming a traitor to
the Empire by turning to the rebels, I'm starting to think the X-wing
Pestage stories must simply be ignored in favor of the older material.
That's just my opinion, and any fan has to pick which material to accept
when things conflict.
For the record, Pestage does not appear in DE. The author of the sourcebook,
I am told, just liked the character and included him in it. In my fanfic,
I just decided that Pestage must be dead by DE. That's just fanfic, but it
does make sense.
One thing I'm concerned with is that in the DE sourcebook, it says Pestage
retires to Byss to be with the reborn Emperor. But in the X-wing books,
doesn't it say Isard hounded him "to his death?" Right there, you really
have to pick one or the other...
-Brendon
PS does anyone else think it is amusing that DH used the Kenner Imperial
Dignitary POTF figure for Sate Pestage? That figure is from the Death Star
II scene, and in that scene, WEG established that the character was not
Pestage. Kren Blista-vanee or something, but not Pestage. >:)
--
Brendon Wahlberg's Star Wars Fan Fiction can be found at
http://theforce.net/fanfiction/index.html (HTML formatted, not zipped)
http://www.fanfiX.com/pages/brendon.htm (zipped text files)
Mattemerso
<<In general terms, yes. The details contradict each other. There was even a
scene in the movie (shot but cut, I
think - just found out about it) where Luke made his saber immediately before
going off to Jabba (as he does in
the SW Radio Drama). This fundamentally contradicts SotE. Did Luke make two
sabers :-)>>
I'm going to go with an excuse a lot of people give here...
We didn't see it, it didn't happen.
Case closed.
Moving on...
<<Ah, okay: "That bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell. You know, the one
who we were all there to fight. Not
Fett, not [I forget the name - from CotJ], none of the others. The one you and
I were there for.... ">>
To my understanding, there were actually TWO incidents at Ord Mantell. The
first involved Han having to save Luke and Leia from a bounty hunter named
Skorr. This happened shortly after ANH. The second was when a bunch of bounty
hunters (including Skorr, Dengar and Boba Fett) trapped Han on Ord Mantell and
were going to deliver him to Jabba. Han (with some assitance) kills Skorr and
escapes back to Hoth. Both of these instances are in the Goodwin Classic Star
Wars series. I consider there "that bounty hunter at Ord Mantell" until I see
something different. For the record, these instances are referenced in a number
of the stories in Tales from The Bounty Hunters.
Of course, just my opinion...
Moving on...
<<And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure
there's AT LEAST one more - Dash Rendar?).>>
Actually, it was Han's love Bria. Read the last two or three chapters of Rebel
Dawn, it's there.
Moving on...
<<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just madehe
main problem. And btw, doesn't
the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops
being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we saw on
Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
(Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the books
and comics)
Moving on...
<<hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge Antilles
(well, neither of them look like
Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and far
far away.>>
Uh guys? Before we all start throwing stones, let's let them finish the X-Wing
series (comics and novels). I'm sure there is an explanation to your theories
there.
Want mine? Maybe it was WRAITH Squadron disgusied as the Rouges. They'd done
that before.
All just my opinion...
MTFBWY
Matt Periolat
Mattemerso
<<> > Then, the Byss-based "Dark Empire" appears, and disappears.
>
> A 'huge warfleet' emerges from the Deep Core and takes most the Galactic Core
regions. The NR is in full retreat
> with, I assume, its main fleets exhausted and out of position (previously
they were fighting Thrawn on the Rim).
> Across the galaxy the NR is being called the rebellion again. I assume
Pellaeon and the Rim fleets join forces with
> the Deep Core.
>
> The Emperor is killed by Luke and Leia (kinda), the war machine is thrown
into confusion. The Emperor's Darks Side
> Adepts attempt a coup, which Military Executor Sedriss puts an end to. The
Emperor returns again (wince),
> 'Operation Shadow Hand' commences, but the final death of the Emperor at
Onderon causes the Imperial fleet to
> fragment again. The NR again takes advantage, pushing the feuding Imps out of
the Core.
Tenuous. Why did Palpy wait 5 years?>>
The explantion I got was the energy he spent transfering himself from the
reactor shaft on Endor to a new clone body on Byss cost him a LOT of energy. He
needed the 5 years to recover.
MTFBWY
Matt Periolat
policraticus
> Hi, as the one who wrote that fanfic, I thought I'd chime in.
Thanks. Great work, btw. Anything else due soon?
> I snipped most
> of this fantastic analysis, but you are both impressive fans.
Hope that's a compliment :-)
> Sate Pestage
> came from an early draft of TESB. Originally Sate Molock (sp?), he appears
> in my copy of draft 4 as Sate Pestage, the Grand Vizier. When Vader is summoned
> to speak to the Emperor, he has to wait, and must talk to Pestage first.
> Pestage, in a very small scene, warns Vader that the Emperor is in a foul
> mood. Obviously this did not get into the film.
[snip]
you have earlier ESB draft scripts? Am I just dumb (probably) or are these not really available anywhere?
> That's just my opinion, and any fan has to pick which material to accept
> when things conflict.
Very true.
> For the record, Pestage does not appear in DE. The author of the sourcebook,
> I am told, just liked the character and included him in it. In my fanfic,
> I just decided that Pestage must be dead by DE. That's just fanfic, but it
> does make sense.
> One thing I'm concerned with is that in the DE sourcebook, it says Pestage
> retires to Byss to be with the reborn Emperor. But in the X-wing books,
> doesn't it say Isard hounded him "to his death?" Right there, you really
> have to pick one or the other...
Well, Stackpole includes a lot of obscure material. That clone of yours?
> PS does anyone else think it is amusing that DH used the Kenner Imperial
> Dignitary POTF figure for Sate Pestage? That figure is from the Death Star
> II scene, and in that scene, WEG established that the character was not
> Pestage. Kren Blista-vanee or something, but not Pestage. >:)
I recognised the characted (worrying, that), and wondered if that was where Pestage came from. (Now I know better :-)
Was the scene with the "original" S.P. ever shot?
Policrat'.
policraticus
> We didn't see it, it didn't happen.
>
> Case closed.
>
> Moving on...
SW Radio drama vs. SotE. Re-open the case, judge!
> <<Ah, okay: "That bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell. You know, the one
> who we were all there to fight. Not
> Fett, not [I forget the name - from CotJ], none of the others. The one you and
> I were there for.... ">>
>
> To my understanding, there were actually TWO incidents at Ord Mantell. The
> first involved Han having to save Luke and Leia from a bounty hunter named
> Skorr. This happened shortly after ANH. The second was when a bunch of bounty
> hunters (including Skorr, Dengar and Boba Fett) trapped Han on Ord Mantell and
> were going to deliver him to Jabba. Han (with some assitance) kills Skorr and
> escapes back to Hoth. Both of these instances are in the Goodwin Classic Star
> Wars series. I consider there "that bounty hunter at Ord Mantell" until I see
> something different. For the record, these instances are referenced in a number
> of the stories in Tales from The Bounty Hunters.
>
> Of course, just my opinion...
And contradicted, if I remember right, in CotJ! [sorry]
> Moving on...
>
> <<And who exactly found the Death Star plans? Leia, Kyle Kataran, or (I'm sure
> there's AT LEAST one more - Dash Rendar?).>>
>
> Actually, it was Han's love Bria. Read the last two or three chapters of Rebel
> Dawn, it's there.
Hah! Spec, you still here? :-) "Then fall, continuity!"
> Moving on...
>
> <<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just madehe
> main problem. And btw, doesn't
> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
> Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops
> being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
>
> Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
>
> OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we saw on
> Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
>
> (Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the books
> and comics)
A message regarding the prequels?
> Moving on...
>
> <<hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge Antilles
> (well, neither of them look like
> Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and far
> far away.>>
>
> Uh guys? Before we all start throwing stones, let's let them finish the X-Wing
> series (comics and novels). I'm sure there is an explanation to your theories
> there.
>
> Want mine? Maybe it was WRAITH Squadron disgusied as the Rouges. They'd done
> that before.
Good idea, but... nah. cf last frame of CE #4.
> All just my opinion...
Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
Policrat'
Mattemerso
> We didn't see it, it didn't happen.
>
> Case closed.
>
> Moving on...
<<SW Radio drama vs. SotE. Re-open the case, judge!>>
Well, I have not read or heard the radio drama so I am ill equipped to truly
debate this. I'll come back to this after I have.
> <<Ah, okay: "That bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell. You know, the one
> who we were all there to fight. Not
> Fett, not [I forget the name - from CotJ], none of the others. The one you
and
> I were there for.... ">>
>
> To my understanding, there were actually TWO incidents at Ord Mantell. The
> first involved Han having to save Luke and Leia from a bounty hunter named
> Skorr. This happened shortly after ANH. The second was when a bunch of bounty
> hunters (including Skorr, Dengar and Boba Fett) trapped Han on Ord Mantell
and
> were going to deliver him to Jabba. Han (with some assitance) kills Skorr and
> escapes back to Hoth. Both of these instances are in the Goodwin Classic Star
> Wars series. I consider there "that bounty hunter at Ord Mantell" until I see
> something different. For the record, these instances are referenced in a
number
> of the stories in Tales from The Bounty Hunters.
>
> Of course, just my opinion...
<<And contradicted, if I remember right, in CotJ! [sorry]>>
Wha??? If this is true, Hambly just didn't do her homework! That being said, I
guess I need to reread CotJ. (shudder)
> Moving on...
>
>> <<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just
madehe
>> main problem. And btw, doesn't
>> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
>> Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
>> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops
>> being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
>> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
>>
>> Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
>>
>> OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we saw
on
>> Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
>>
>> (Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the books
>> and comics)
<<A message regarding the prequels?>>
Well, how much of the novels can Lucas void with the Prequels? Or the TOTJ
comics since they took place beforehand? I doubt much. Lucas did after all
include the swoops, the Outrider and the planet Bob in the SE. Then again, I
hope he doesn't.
>> Moving on...
>>
>> <<hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge
Antilles
>> (well, neither of them look like
>> Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and
far
>> far away.>>
>>
>> Uh guys? Before we all start throwing stones, let's let them finish the
X-Wing
>> series (comics and novels). I'm sure there is an explanation to your
theories
>> there.
>>
>> Want mine? Maybe it was WRAITH Squadron disgusied as the Rouges. They'd done
>> that before.
<<Good idea, but... nah. cf last frame of CE #4>>.
Wraith did use the call signs for the Rouges during their assults, did they
not? Besides, you would know the Rouges from the comics and the novels.
Something isn't jiveing here.
<<> All just my opinion...
Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
Policrat'>>
Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
Matt Periolat
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
> > We didn't see it, it didn't happen.
> >
> > Case closed.
> >
> > Moving on...
>
> <<SW Radio drama vs. SotE. Re-open the case, judge!>>
>
> Well, I have not read or heard the radio drama so I am ill equipped to truly
> debate this. I'll come back to this after I have.
Oldest excuse in the book! Or raidio-drama :-)
> > <<Ah, okay: "That bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell. You know, the one
> > who we were all there to fight. Not
> > Fett, not [I forget the name - from CotJ], none of the others. The one you
> and
> > I were there for.... ">>
> >
> > To my understanding, there were actually TWO incidents at Ord Mantell. The
> > first involved Han having to save Luke and Leia from a bounty hunter named
> > Skorr. This happened shortly after ANH. The second was when a bunch of bounty
> > hunters (including Skorr, Dengar and Boba Fett) trapped Han on Ord Mantell
> and
> > were going to deliver him to Jabba. Han (with some assitance) kills Skorr and
> > escapes back to Hoth. Both of these instances are in the Goodwin Classic Star
> > Wars series. I consider there "that bounty hunter at Ord Mantell" until I see
> > something different. For the record, these instances are referenced in a
> number
> > of the stories in Tales from The Bounty Hunters.
> >
> > Of course, just my opinion...
>
> <<And contradicted, if I remember right, in CotJ! [sorry]>>
>
> Wha??? If this is true, Hambly just didn't do her homework! That being said, I
> guess I need to reread CotJ. (shudder)
[Profound sympathy. Anyone notice that KJA gets all the flak for the cheesy
superweapons, but Hambly's are infinitely less convincing? Sure, developed
characters, but underdeveloped everything else.]
> > Moving on...
> >
> >> <<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just
> madehe
> >> main problem. And btw, doesn't
> >> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
> >> Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
> >> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops
> >> being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
> >> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
> >>
> >> Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
> >>
> >> OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we saw
> on
> >> Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
> >>
> >> (Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the books
> >> and comics)
>
> <<A message regarding the prequels?>>
>
> Well, how much of the novels can Lucas void with the Prequels? Or the TOTJ
> comics since they took place beforehand? I doubt much. Lucas did after all
> include the swoops, the Outrider and the planet Bob in the SE. Then again, I
> hope he doesn't.
The planet Bob? Trouble is, there's so much out there that it'll be hard to leave
it all intact.
> >> Moving on...
> >>
> >> <<hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge
> Antilles
> >> (well, neither of them look like
> >> Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and
> far
> >> far away.>>
> >>
> >> Uh guys? Before we all start throwing stones, let's let them finish the
> X-Wing
> >> series (comics and novels). I'm sure there is an explanation to your
> theories
> >> there.
> >>
> >> Want mine? Maybe it was WRAITH Squadron disgusied as the Rouges. They'd done
> >> that before.
>
> <<Good idea, but... nah. cf last frame of CE #4>>.
>
> Wraith did use the call signs for the Rouges during their assults, did they
> not? Besides, you would know the Rouges from the comics and the novels.
> Something isn't jiveing here.
Yes, but they were using squadron comm. And I don't think he was being ironic.
Anyway, they're described in the blurbs as "the all-new Rogue Squadron", and it
would make more sense to have the Wraiths in X-wings.
> <<> All just my opinion...
>
> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>
> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
Policrat'
Mattemerso
Mattemerso wrote:
>> > We didn't see it, it didn't happen.
>> >
>> > Case closed.
>> >
>> > Moving on...
>>
>> <<SW Radio drama vs. SotE. Re-open the case, judge!>>
>>
>> Well, I have not read or heard the radio drama so I am ill equipped to truly
>> debate this. I'll come back to this after I have.
>Oldest excuse in the book! Or raidio-drama :-)
:-) Well, not all of us have read every single things in SW. I still have not
read the SWAJ, or the WEG supplements and sourcebooks, or the Droids comics or
Crimsom Empire...
The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
So true. I read CotJ twice and I was still like "What's going on?" Nice
characters, but a clear plot would have been nice! Oh, and if I heard Luke
bitch one more time about how much his knee hurt, I was going to hunt Hambly
down. While we're on that subject, doesn't Luke get beat up an AWFUL lot for
someone who's supposed to be an all-powerful Jedi?
OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but reusing
the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
>> > Moving on...
>> >
>> >> <<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just
>> madehe
>> >> main problem. And btw, doesn't
>> >> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
>> >> Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
>> >> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy)
stops
>> >> being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
>> >> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
>> >>
>> >> Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
>> >>
>> >> OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we
saw
>> on
>> >> Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
>> >>
>> >> (Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the
books
>> >> and comics)
>>
> <>
>>
>> Well, how much of the novels can Lucas void with the Prequels? Or the TOTJ
>> comics since they took place beforehand? I doubt much. Lucas did after all
>> include the swoops, the Outrider and the planet Bob in the SE. Then again, I
>> hope he doesn't.
>The planet Bob? Trouble is, there's so much out there that it'll be hard to
>leave
>it all intact.
Agreed, but I am still curious as to see what Lucas has got up his sleeve. Oh
and about the planet Bob? It's actually Courescant (sp)? See, on the old AOL
boards, we were not sure how it was prononced and we had a hard time spelling
it, so we just nicknamed it "the planet Bob." I am still scared that when Cour.
shows up in the prequels, someone in the theater will stand up and yell "The
planet Bob!"
Well, jeez, I don't know! I've just skimmed CE, I'm waiting for the trades.
Cheaper that way. That being said, I do believe the editors owe us an
explanation, because this is just... too confusing.
(loads up his blaster rifle and goes editor-hunting.)
>> <<> All just my opinion...
>>
>> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>>
>> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
Matt
policraticus
> >Oldest excuse in the book! Or raidio-drama :-)
>
> :-) Well, not all of us have read every single things in SW. I still have not
> read the SWAJ, or the WEG supplements and sourcebooks, or the Droids comics or
> Crimsom Empire...
S'okay. That makes us about equal.
> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
[snip]
> So true. I read CotJ twice and I was still like "What's going on?" Nice
> characters, but a clear plot would have been nice! Oh, and if I heard Luke
> bitch one more time about how much his knee hurt, I was going to hunt Hambly
> down. While we're on that subject, doesn't Luke get beat up an AWFUL lot for
> someone who's supposed to be an all-powerful Jedi?
I think Hambly just has a fetish :-)
> OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but reusing
> the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
How? It's the most pointless and dramatically deadening superweapon since Zsinj's
nightcloak (remember that?)....
[snip]
> about the planet Bob? It's actually Courescant (sp)? See, on the old AOL
> boards, we were not sure how it was prononced and we had a hard time spelling
> it, so we just nicknamed it "the planet Bob." I am still scared that when Cour.
> shows up in the prequels, someone in the theater will stand up and yell "The
> planet Bob!"
Thanks!
[snip]
> Well, jeez, I don't know! I've just skimmed CE, I'm waiting for the trades.
> Cheaper that way. That being said, I do believe the editors owe us an
> explanation, because this is just... too confusing.
Like the other profic writers don't?
> (loads up his blaster rifle and goes editor-hunting.)
You read the last 70 pages of "I, Jedi" yet? :-)
> >> <<> All just my opinion...
> >>
> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
> >>
> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>
> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
>
> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
Policrat'
Mattemerso
>In addition, there were other incidents on Ord Mantell, including
>Rebel Mission to Ord Mantell (an audio adventure), a WEG supplement (I
>can't remember its name), Marvel #37 (though the planet name is
>implied rather than specifically named), and a tale recounted in Young
>Jedi Knights #12 (thanks to Yours Truly.. thank you, thank you).
>Apparently, Han should learn NEVER to go to Ord Mantell. :)
>Incidentally, I wrote an Ord Mantell adventure not involving Han, for
>the Adventure Journal. It took place at Ten-Mile Plateau, the same
>location as Goodwin's "The Bounty Hunter at Ord Mantell."
I'm impressed. Han should learn to stay way from Ord Mantell. My understanding
is that Archie wasn't happy with the first story "The Bounty Hunter at Ord
Mantell" so he redid it with the second story (title escapes me) just before
the end of the strip. Both are referenced. What surprised me about Return to
Ord Mantell, the YJK story, is that they mentioned The Leviathan of Korbos,
which isn't even due to appear before August! Ye gods!
MTFBWY
Matt Periolat
Mattemerso
>> >Oldest excuse in the book! Or raidio-drama :-)
>>
>> :-) Well, not all of us have read every single things in SW. I still have
not
>> read the SWAJ, or the WEG supplements and sourcebooks, or the Droids comics
or
>> Crimsom Empire...
>S'okay. That makes us about equal.
Well, my dream is this: By the time I have my own batch of Rebels, I want this
continuity mess straightened out so I can know what to read to my kids at
bedtime.
>> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
>Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
>[snip]
So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends you make
along the way.
>> So true. I read CotJ twice and I was still like "What's going on?" Nice
>> characters, but a clear plot would have been nice! Oh, and if I heard Luke
>> bitch one more time about how much his knee hurt, I was going to hunt Hambly
>> down. While we're on that subject, doesn't Luke get beat up an AWFUL lot for
>> someone who's supposed to be an all-powerful Jedi?
>I think Hambly just has a fetish :-)
Vonda must too, because I understand Luke's a little weak in there too. I have
not read The Crystal Star yet, but I get the feeling that it's a mistake.
>> OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but
reusing
>> the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
>How? It's the most pointless and dramatically deadening superweapon >since
Zsinj's
>nightcloak (remember that?)....
Hmmm... star crushing torpedoes vs. a really big sun screen. Sounds like we're
comparing asteroid movies here! God, I cannot WAIT for the prequels next year!
>[snip]
>> about the planet Bob? It's actually Courescant (sp)? See, on the old AOL
>> boards, we were not sure how it was prononced and we had a hard time
spelling
>> it, so we just nicknamed it "the planet Bob." I am still scared that when
Cour.
>> shows up in the prequels, someone in the theater will stand up and yell "The
>> planet Bob!"
>Thanks!
>[snip]
::bows:: An honor to serve, my lord.
>> Well, jeez, I don't know! I've just skimmed CE, I'm waiting for the trades.
>> Cheaper that way. That being said, I do believe the editors owe us an
>> explanation, because this is just... too confusing.
> Like the other profic writers don't?
I guess I don't understand this statement. Elaborate please.
>> (loads up his blaster rifle and goes editor-hunting.)
>You read the last 70 pages of "I, Jedi" yet? :-)
Holding out for the paperback version, why?
>> >> <<> All just my opinion...
>> >>
>> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>> >>
>> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>>
>> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
>>
>> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
>mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
Oooooo... you make it sound like our Star comepetions convention.
MTFBWY,
Matt
policraticus
[snip]
> Well, my dream is this: By the time I have my own batch of Rebels, I want this
> continuity mess straightened out so I can know what to read to my kids at
> bedtime.
You'd read your kids SW novels? :-) Let's see. Not KJA or Hambly... In fact, Zahn
and a little Stackpole only (should be obvious).
> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
>
> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
>
> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends you make
> along the way.
Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a field a few
miles off.)
> >> So true. I read CotJ twice and I was still like "What's going on?" Nice
> >> characters, but a clear plot would have been nice! Oh, and if I heard Luke
> >> bitch one more time about how much his knee hurt, I was going to hunt Hambly
> >> down. While we're on that subject, doesn't Luke get beat up an AWFUL lot for
> >> someone who's supposed to be an all-powerful Jedi?
>
> >I think Hambly just has a fetish :-)
>
> Vonda must too, because I understand Luke's a little weak in there too. I have
> not read The Crystal Star yet, but I get the feeling that it's a mistake.
I always feel there's something a bit "nasty" about that book. Problem ain't Luke
getting hurt (though it is a trite, oft-repeated idea that Hambly, Wolverton, KJA
and others have used far too often - it should be an EFFECT, not a CAUSE in the
plot: kinda kills the drama to take out the main character 1/2 way thru' thr novel.
For instance: Vader gets fried near the end of the prequels - defeat of villan.
That he survives is (given that JE-J only has a few minutes of airtime) is not a
major prequel point (tho' it's important for the development of the whole series);
Luke gets hand chopped off at the end of ESB. Drama comes from rescue, not his
whining.). The problem (remember that) is that Luke is at once made an excessively
mighty Jedi AND thwacked about by just about everyone from a minor Dathomiri to a
characterless computer
(IMHO the Will was a great villan just left to go to waste - Hambly just can't do
evil characters, and, criminally, the one time she does (Tarkin), she misquotes an
entire ANH scene in CotJ! Continuity?)
> >> OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but
> reusing
> >> the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
>
> >How? It's the most pointless and dramatically deadening superweapon >since
> Zsinj's
> >nightcloak (remember that?)....
>
> Hmmm... star crushing torpedoes vs. a really big sun screen. Sounds like we're
> comparing asteroid movies here! God, I cannot WAIT for the prequels next year!
Okay. Now don't get me wrong. The problem with the Sun Crusher, like Luke's
injuries, is that it kills the drama because it's essentially unstopable. The
nightcloak, on the other hand, is so dire that everyone has to play it up for no
real reason, again, to the detriment of excitement, etc. And, in every case, the
solution to the problem is utterly contrived.
> >[snip]
[snip]
> >Thanks!
>
> >[snip]
>
> ::bows:: An honor to serve, my lord.
::smiles thinly in best Palpy style::
[snip]
> >> I do believe the editors owe us an
> >> explanation, because this is just... too confusing.
>
> > Like the other profic writers don't?
>
> I guess I don't understand this statement. Elaborate please.
Just about every profic SW writer has committed continuity errors of varying
degrees, either as regards the movies or with reference to each other.
> >> (loads up his blaster rifle and goes editor-hunting.)
>
> >You read the last 70 pages of "I, Jedi" yet? :-)
>
> Holding out for the paperback version, why?
You'll see.
> >> >> <<> All just my opinion...
> >> >>
> >> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
> >>
> >> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
> >>
> >> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
>
> >mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
>
> Oooooo... you make it sound like our Star comepetions convention.
Huh?
"Oh yeah? You and whose Empire?"
[last words of the last Autarch of the Ssi-Ruuk Imperium, addressed to the
blue-skinned alien who'd just shown up in a big triangular spaceship over his
homeworld.]
Policrat'
Mattemerso
>[snip]
>> Well, my dream is this: By the time I have my own batch of Rebels, I want
this
>> continuity mess straightened out so I can know what to read to my kids at
>> bedtime.
>You'd read your kids SW novels? :-) Let's see. Not KJA or Hambly... In fact,
>Zahn
>and a little Stackpole only (should be obvious).
Well, I doubt I'd be reading Hambly to them. That's too confusing. Stackpole's
too adult. KJA fits in well with them I think, since he did write the YJK
books. Besides, he wrote the TOTJ comics, which I use as the launching pad
until the prequels come out and erase them.
>> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
>>
>> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
>>
>> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends you
make
>> along the way.
>Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a field a
>few
>miles off.)
Each Jedi must forge his own path. I'll find a way, you make one.
Does seem unreasonable, huh? And how is it some of the writers can't get past
Luke whining about going to the Tosche Station to pick up the power converters?
Seems to me each writer is never sure A.) How powerful Luke should be or B.)
What to do with him. It's all a mess. Oh and while we're on the subject, how
beliveable is it that The Force could restore life to Luke in COPL, but
couldn't save some of the other Jedis? (BTW, I've been considering SotME
non-canon. Should I read it?)
>(IMHO the Will was a great villan just left to go to waste - Hambly just
>can't do
>evil characters, and, criminally, the one time she does (Tarkin), she
>misquotes an
>entire ANH scene in CotJ! Continuity?)
Hambly must have thought she could play fast and loose with SW fans. Bzzzzzz!
Wrong! We are EXTREME sticklers for detail!
>> >> OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but
>> reusing
>> >> the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
>>
>> >How? It's the most pointless and dramatically deadening superweapon >>since
>> Zsinj's
>> >nightcloak (remember that?)....
>>
>> Hmmm... star crushing torpedoes vs. a really big sun screen. Sounds like
we're
>> comparing asteroid movies here! God, I cannot WAIT for the prequels next
year!
>Okay. Now don't get me wrong. The problem with the Sun Crusher, like >Luke's
>injuries, is that it kills the drama because it's essentially unstopable. >The
>nightcloak, on the other hand, is so dire that everyone has to play it up >for
no
>real reason, again, to the detriment of excitement, etc. And, in every >case,
the
>solution to the problem is utterly contrived.
::rubs his temples:: Well, I think we'd be hard pressed to find the perfect
Star Wars novel, even in terms of the novelzations. I'm willing to turn a blind
eye to some of this stuff, in hopes of getting a good story. I do sometimes.
>> >[snip]
>[snip]
>> >Thanks!
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> ::bows:: An honor to serve, my lord.
>::smiles thinly in best Palpy style::
>[snip]
:-) Cannot wait to see him back for the prequels. Out of curiosity, who here
thinks Lucas will use the clone premis?
>> >> I do believe the editors owe us an
>> >> explanation, because this is just... too confusing.
>>
>> > Like the other profic writers don't?
>>
>> I guess I don't understand this statement. Elaborate please.
>Just about every profic SW writer has committed continuity errors of >varying
>degrees, either as regards the movies or with reference to each other.
True, true. Much as we love Zahn and Stackpole, I'm sure they've screwed up
from time to time too. I appricate if someone would just sit down and write a
book that says "This and this happened, but this and this didn't." Settle this
whole mess for good and all.
>> >> (loads up his blaster rifle and goes editor-hunting.)
>>
>> >You read the last 70 pages of "I, Jedi" yet? :-)
>>
>> Holding out for the paperback version, why?
>You'll see.
I may be twice blessed. I haven't read SOTP yet either!
>> >> >> <<> All just my opinion...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>> >>
>> >> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
>> >>
>> >> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
>>
>> >mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
>>
>> Oooooo... you make it sound like our Star comepetions convention.
>Huh?
The Trekkers. Gotta love all of THEIR continuity stuff!
MTFBWY,
Matt
policraticus
> >You'd read your kids SW novels? :-) Let's see. Not KJA or Hambly... In fact,
> >Zahn
> >and a little Stackpole only (should be obvious).
>
> Well, I doubt I'd be reading Hambly to them. That's too confusing. Stackpole's
> too adult. KJA fits in well with them I think, since he did write the YJK
> books. Besides, he wrote the TOTJ comics, which I use as the launching pad
> until the prequels come out and erase them.
D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just show them the
films.
[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the Iliad at
age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's reading, or most
other things, for that matter.]
> >> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
> >>
> >> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
> >>
> >> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends you
> make
> >> along the way.
>
> >Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a field a
> >few
> >miles off.)
>
> Each Jedi must forge his own path. I'll find a way, you make one.
Good luck. Hope you packed a map.
Um, when else did Luke have a character-building scene :-)
> Seems to me each writer is never sure A.) How powerful Luke should be or B.)
> What to do with him. It's all a mess. Oh and while we're on the subject, how
> beliveable is it that The Force could restore life to Luke in COPL, but
> couldn't save some of the other Jedis? (BTW, I've been considering SotME
> non-canon. Should I read it?)
Up to you. Probably non-canon, and a bit daft at the end, but hey. What DOESN'T
that describe?
> >(IMHO the Will was a great villan just left to go to waste - Hambly just
> >can't do
> >evil characters, and, criminally, the one time she does (Tarkin), she
> >misquotes an
> >entire ANH scene in CotJ! Continuity?)
>
> Hambly must have thought she could play fast and loose with SW fans. Bzzzzzz!
> Wrong! We are EXTREME sticklers for detail!
Strange no-one picked up on it in any of these continuity threads....
And why did she change the Night Hammer's [sic] name to "Eye of Palpatine"? (you
didn't think KJA could invent a name that good, did you?)
> >> >> OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but
> >> reusing
> >> >> the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
> >>
> >> >How? It's the most pointless and dramatically deadening superweapon >>since
> >> Zsinj's
> >> >nightcloak (remember that?)....
> >>
> >> Hmmm... star crushing torpedoes vs. a really big sun screen. Sounds like
> we're
> >> comparing asteroid movies here! God, I cannot WAIT for the prequels next
> year!
>
> >Okay. Now don't get me wrong. The problem with the Sun Crusher, like >Luke's
> >injuries, is that it kills the drama because it's essentially unstopable. >The
> >nightcloak, on the other hand, is so dire that everyone has to play it up >for
> no
> >real reason, again, to the detriment of excitement, etc. And, in every >case,
> the
> >solution to the problem is utterly contrived.
>
> ::rubs his temples:: Well, I think we'd be hard pressed to find the perfect
> Star Wars novel, even in terms of the novelzations. I'm willing to turn a blind
> eye to some of this stuff, in hopes of getting a good story. I do sometimes.
Four words: Specter of the Past
> >> >[snip]
>
> >[snip]
>
> >> >Thanks!
> >>
> >> >[snip]
> >>
> >> ::bows:: An honor to serve, my lord.
>
> >::smiles thinly in best Palpy style::
>
> >[snip]
>
> :-) Cannot wait to see him back for the prequels. Out of curiosity, who here
> thinks Lucas will use the clone premis?
>
No me. Or my clones.
Uh, which one. Presumably Palpy's (I doubt he can get out of the Clone Wars). The
main question is how Palpy gets the Force. Only clue anywhere is Zahn's ref. to
Jorus C'Baoth as a "Jedi Advisor" to him. I also have a v. large conspiracy theory
as to pre/sequel material being fed to the authors... but you don't want to know
about that :-)
:: Policraat' grins madly::
Kaiburr Chrystal, anyone?
> >Just about every profic SW writer has committed continuity errors of >varying
> >degrees, either as regards the movies or with reference to each other.
>
> True, true. Much as we love Zahn and Stackpole, I'm sure they've screwed up
> from time to time too. I appricate if someone would just sit down and write a
> book that says "This and this happened, but this and this didn't." Settle this
> whole mess for good and all.
I think KJA was down to do one (called "The Jedi Holocron" or something). Anyone
know what happened to it?
[snip]
> I may be twice blessed. I haven't read SOTP yet either!
You have much to look forward to.
> >> >> >> <<> All just my opinion...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
> >> >>
> >> >> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
> >> >>
> >> >> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
> >>
> >> >mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
> >>
> >> Oooooo... you make it sound like our Star comepetions convention.
>
> >Huh?
>
> The Trekkers. Gotta love all of THEIR continuity stuff!
Or hate it.
Policrat'
(Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded back to that
strange place called "sanity")
Mattemerso
>> >You'd read your kids SW novels? :-) Let's see. Not KJA or Hambly... In
fact,
>> >Zahn
>> >and a little Stackpole only (should be obvious).
>>
>> Well, I doubt I'd be reading Hambly to them. That's too confusing.
Stackpole's
>> too adult. KJA fits in well with them I think, since he did write the YJK
>> books. Besides, he wrote the TOTJ comics, which I use as the launching pad
>> until the prequels come out and erase them.
>D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just >show
them the
>films.
The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke losing
his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger days) for
Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
birthdays. It has more impact.
>[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
>Iliad at
>age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's >reading,
or most
>other things, for that matter.]
[Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2 and was reading
Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced his
life.]
>> >> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
>> >>
>> >> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
>> >>
>> >> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends
you
>> make
>> >> along the way.
>>
>> >Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a field a
>> >few
>> >miles off.)
>>
>> Each Jedi must forge his own path. I'll find a way, you make one.
>Good luck. Hope you packed a map.
Well, since until recently I considered KJA my tour guide, I may be in trouble.
The scene in Jedi where he spoke with Obi-Wan after Yoda's passing springs to
mind. Luke is a tough character to write, which may be why people prefer Han to
Luke. IMO.
>> Seems to me each writer is never sure A.) How powerful Luke should be or B.)
>> What to do with him. It's all a mess. Oh and while we're on the subject, how
>> beliveable is it that The Force could restore life to Luke in COPL, but
>> couldn't save some of the other Jedis? (BTW, I've been considering SotME
>> non-canon. Should I read it?)
>Up to you. Probably non-canon, and a bit daft at the end, but hey. What
>DOESN'T
>that describe?
Well, we're STILL debating the new end of Jedi, so who knows? I agree it was a
good thing to ditch the Yub-Yub theme, which sounded suspiciously like the
Seseme Street theme and adding the celebrations was a cool way to show off FX,
but kinda contridicts stuff. 1. Why would a Imperial garrison (Bespin)
celebrate the fall of the Emperor? 2. Same with "a hive of scum and villainy"
(Mos) 3. The freaking seat of Imperial power??? (Cour.) Oh and how is it said
three places knew off the fall but it missed Bakura?
>> >(IMHO the Will was a great villan just left to go to waste - Hambly just
>> >can't do
>> >evil characters, and, criminally, the one time she does (Tarkin), she
>> >misquotes an
>> >entire ANH scene in CotJ! Continuity?)
>>
>> Hambly must have thought she could play fast and loose with SW fans.
Bzzzzzz!
>> Wrong! We are EXTREME sticklers for detail!
>Strange no-one picked up on it in any of these continuity threads....
>And why did she change the Night Hammer's [sic] name to "Eye of >Palpatine"?
(you
>didn't think KJA could invent a name that good, did you?)
Hmmm... memory is fuzzy. I only remember the Knight Hammer in DS. Also, I still
haven't read PoT yet, so that may be part.
Three words: Paperback in December.
Five more: No money, paperback cheeper.
>> >> >[snip]
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> >Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> >[snip]
>> >>
>> >> ::bows:: An honor to serve, my lord.
>>
>> >::smiles thinly in best Palpy style::
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> :-) Cannot wait to see him back for the prequels. Out of curiosity, who here
>> thinks Lucas will use the clone premis?
>>
>No me. Or my clones.
>Uh, which one. Presumably Palpy's (I doubt he can get out of the Clone >Wars).
The
>main question is how Palpy gets the Force. Only clue anywhere is Zahn's >ref.
to
>Jorus C'Baoth as a "Jedi Advisor" to him. I also have a v. large conspiracy
>theory
>as to pre/sequel material being fed to the authors... but you don't want to
>know
>about that :-)
Probably not, not until we see everything in 2002. Then we'll see what's true
and what I have wasted my time and precious funds on.
>:: Policraat' grins madly::
>Kaiburr Chrystal, anyone?
Not the crystal arguement, please!!!!
>> >Just about every profic SW writer has committed continuity errors of
>>varying
>> >degrees, either as regards the movies or with reference to each other.
>>
>> True, true. Much as we love Zahn and Stackpole, I'm sure they've screwed up
>> from time to time too. I appricate if someone would just sit down and write
a
>> book that says "This and this happened, but this and this didn't." Settle
this
>> whole mess for good and all.
>I think KJA was down to do one (called "The Jedi Holocron" or something).
>Anyone
>know what happened to it?
>[snip]
Last I heard, it's supposed to be out in May 1999, just before Episode 1. But
isn't having KJA do it like asking the fox to guard the henhouse?
>> I may be twice blessed. I haven't read SOTP yet either!
>You have much to look forward to.
Well, the end of the journey is where the greatest rewards lie.
>> >> >> >> <<> All just my opinion...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MTFBWY, and the X-Wing you crashed into the swamp on.
>> >>
>> >> >mtfbwy, whichever continuity you're in.
>> >>
>> >> Oooooo... you make it sound like our Star comepetions convention.
>>
>> >Huh?
>>
>> The Trekkers. Gotta love all of THEIR continuity stuff!
>Or hate it.
Bingo, my friend.
Policrat'
> (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded >back to
that
> strange place called "sanity")
(Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor acting and
flimsy stories.)
MTFBWY,
Matt
Ian Roney
Brendon J Wahlberg wrote:
>
> In article <355C03A6...@yahoo.com>,
> Joe Student <@student.cowan.edu.au> wrote:
> >> No no no no no.
> >> "Dark Empire". [Did Stackpole borrowed Sate Pestage from Brendon Wahlberg's fanfic? This poses a very
> >> interesting continuity problem].
> >From my impression, the main DE comic does not make mention of Pestage - I can't remember if he is in the text end
> >notes or not. The comics have him ruling Coruscant for several months while Isard undermines him. Eventually she
> >forces him to flee to the Deep Core - how this happens we have not seen yet. How much of DE will the RS comics hint
> >at?
> Hi, as the one who wrote that fanfic, I thought I'd chime in. I snipped most
> of this fantastic analysis, but you are both impressive fans.
Ah, go on, get out...:)
Well, I am 'Joe Student' (razzin frazzin uni computers), and I have read
some of your work, though it was some time ago. I really liked how you
tied in the DE/Zahn work quite expertly.
> Sate Pestage
> came from an early draft of TESB. Originally Sate Molock (sp?), he appears
> in my copy of draft 4 as Sate Pestage, the Grand Vizier. When Vader is summoned
> to speak to the Emperor, he has to wait, and must talk to Pestage first.
> Pestage, in a very small scene, warns Vader that the Emperor is in a foul
> mood.
Reminds me a little of the part in the novel of RotJ where the officer
halts Vader, and then has an asthma attack. :)
> One thing I'm concerned with is that in the DE sourcebook, it says Pestage
> retires to Byss to be with the reborn Emperor. But in the X-wing books,
> doesn't it say Isard hounded him "to his death?" Right there, you really
> have to pick one or the other...
Well, that might have been the news that the Empire put out. He could
quite eaily have fled to the Deep Core. We'll just have to wait and see,
eh?
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> > Not necessarily. The bulk of the fleet seems loyal to whoever is in charge of Coruscant. > > Powerful warlords like
> > Zsinj and co don't move on Coruscant because of this. The ISD captain Sair Yonka makes > > mention of this in 'The
> > Bacta War.'
> >
> That's not the impression in the Zahn Trilogy, where Pellaeon seems to have been trying to > keep the Empire on its feet
> for five years while the command structure disintegrated. If Isard (or anyone else) had been > in charge, they would
> surely have appointed a new admiral (Zsinj? Roek with the Aggressor?) to succeed Piet. > Pellaeon's situation between
> Endor and Thrawn implies that there was no chain of command at all.
Sorry, 'Joe Student' is not my name/email. Forgot to change the
preferences. Gah.
Anyway...if Pellaeon was in absolute control of the Imp fleet, then
surely he would have promoted himself to Admiral (or better)? He
recognises himself as a competent if uninspired leader, and the need for
rank recognition is necessary in a fragmentating of the Empire. How
early did Zsinj go rogue (no pun intended)? I see references to Harrsk
and Teradoc in the comics (approx 1 - 6 months post-Endor), but no
Zsinj. I don't have the novels on-hand to refer to, d'oh.
> > There has been speculation by others in the ng that Isard kept him in the dark. Note in 'The > > Making of Baron Fel'
> > how Thrawn was relegated to the background after the victory at Derra IV even though he > > planned the attack.
>
> Isard keeping Thrawn in the dark? Credible?
*shrug*
It's hard to believe that Thrawn was so out of touch with the Empire
that he didn't know for 4.5 years that something had gone horribly
wrong. I think the reference to 'Colonel' Thrawn was a mistake anyway.
Stackpole shouldn't have included it - unless there is a method to his
madness. :)
And keeping Thrawn in the dark seems...tricky, doesn't it?
> > From my impression, the main DE comic does not make mention of Pestage - I can't remember if > > he is in the text end
> > notes or not. The comics have him ruling Coruscant for several months while Isard undermines > > him. Eventually she
> > forces him to flee to the Deep Core - how this happens we have not seen yet. How much of DE > > will the RS comics hint
> > at?
>
> Pestage isn't in DE at all. Maybe he appears in the RotJ novel (not read it) as one of the > courtiers with Palpy, but
> otherwise, Wahlberg (fanfic at theForce.net) seems to introduce him.
The RotJ novel refers to his ministers and so on, but doesn't specify
any, IIRC. I didn't think that Pestage was in the DE series. It would
have been a nice touch.
> > And remember, just because Pellaeon is in the Rim, and Pentastar Alignment is in the Outer > > Rim, that does not mean
> > that they have iron-clad control over their territories. Just as the warlords break away > > from Coruscant, they are
> > also losing authority over their own territories (even if this is - at first - a slow > > process.).
>
> All the same, it would be a lot easier for them to stop the NR taking power anywhere than it > would to suppress local
> discontent.
It is a lot easier to construct a scenario in which the Empire destroys
itself rather than the NR beginning a popular and military revolution. I
too am uncomfortable with the idea of the Empire and warlords not simply
squashing the NR, but we have to work with what we are given.
All I can really visualise is the NR grabbing territories which are
considered unimportant by any of the other parties at first, and as the
warlords/Empire go for each others throats, the NR picks up the pieces.
A lot of the novels and comics suggest that the Empire was losing its
grip on the Outer Rim even before ANH (see the new Han Solo novels).
> > From my impression, the majority of cohesive Imperial power falls under Pellaeon and Thrawn. > > There are pockets of
> > Imperial warlords left scattered around, but they are mainly interested in holding on to > > what they have. Thrawn
> > returns from the Unknown Regions approx 4.5 years after Endor.
>
> Okay. This is the MAJOR threat to the Republic. Not Zsinj, not Harrsk, the cohesive quarter of > the Galaxy (still with
> major worlds like Muunilinst) that's Imperial. So between Wedge's Gamble and Heir to the > Empire (2+ yrs) the Repubic
> ingnores it? As they do from KJA to SotP?
Hmm. Off the top of my head, the focus of the X-wing books after the
fall of Coruscant is Zsinj. That does not necessarily mean that the NR
isn't fighting the Empire - that part of the struggle is simply on the
sidelines for the moment. Of course, it's a bit disturbing that all this
isn't even *mentioned*. Even some throwaway references would be nice.
Again, it is implied that there are quite a few warlords, but only
Zsinj, Harrsk and Teradoc are mentioned. The others are basically
ignored.
As for KJA to SotP...how long did Pellaeon and Disra say an uneasy truce
had held? A thing I *really* liked in SotP is Lando's comment that they
didn't even come close to fighting the Empire's full strength, most of
which was tied down holding down rebellions and secession. The NR has
the same problem during the Corellian crisis.
> > This is a hiccup in the continuity that I can't explain. Perhaps the DE sourcebook explains > > it. I have no idea who
> > these 'Inner Circle' guys are, but they may be some of the surviving warlords and advisors > > (seen in the RS comics
> > arguing to overthrow Pestage) who have joined forces.
> >
>
> No, they're pure and simple nonsense.
Well, yes...but...oh I give up. You're right. At least until someone
makes a concerted effort to explain it via a storyline or sourcebook.
> > The Emperor is killed by Luke and Leia (kinda), the war machine is thrown into confusion. > > The Emperor's Darks Side
> > Adepts attempt a coup, which Military Executor Sedriss puts an end to. The Emperor returns > > again (wince),
> > 'Operation Shadow Hand' commences, but the final death of the Emperor at Onderon causes the > > Imperial fleet to
> > fragment again. The NR again takes advantage, pushing the feuding Imps out of the Core.
>
> Tenuous. Why did Palpy wait 5 years?
I skimmed some of the other messages, and someone mentioned he needed
time to recover. I'll go with that. Maybe some sort of sadistic
voyeurism involved as well. This *is* Palpatine, after all. :) He likes
to watch. :)
> No, Jax and Wessel between them have blackmailed the Council into compliance. (CE #0 at > starwars.com). Jax can also
> strongarm Wessel fairly easily. If he's acting the Darth Vader, he's got Vader's power, and > wants to become Emperor.
I haven't seen #0, for the simple reason I haven't thought much of CE so
far. Is the Inner Council the same group as from DE? Probably not, but
I'm clutching at the proverbial straws here...
> > See above. The vast bulk of the galaxy from Core to Rim seems to have gone over to the > > Republic. A sector is a lot
> > of space and worlds, but is probably insignificant compared to NR space.
>
> Okay, but it shouldn't have.
Not so quickly I agree. Much of the continuity 'faults' are explainable,
it is the *timing* I am concerned about. From JA3, it all happens too
quickly. I would have thought another 5 yuears hard fighting *at least*
were needed to beat Pellaeon and co, especially given the setbacks of
DE.
> > By now any pretence at centralised Imperial authority is gone, the Deep Core warlords are at > > open war with one
> > another. Surviving warlords from other parts of the galaxy (Harssk etc)
>
> Harrsk was always a Core warlord - at least according to KJA
Is this specifically stated? I really should have the books with me...
> > > K-Mac also claims that the Empire was divided, not into
> > > Sector fleets, but "Commands". If Black Sword Command is typical, these controled several > > > sectors, and had
> > > upwards of 40 ships, including several Super Star Destroyers each
> >
> > These could be the remnants of the fleets of Grand Moffs. They controlled several sectors at > > once, and had personal
> > fleets not related to the 'sector fleets' which protected given territories.
>
> Nope. GMs command Oversectors - Inner, Mid and Outer Rim, Deep Core and the important bid > (with the main worlds) I
> always forget the name of. K-Mac just re-wrote the strategic map of the Galaxy.
AFAIK, it goes Deep Core, Core, Inner, Mid, Outer Rim and Unknown
Regions. I thought the Oversectors were groups of several priority
sectors that were experiencing unusually heavy rebel or pirate activity.
Are you sure they are groupings of whole political segments of the
galaxy?
> > This is just a screw up on KJA's behalf. They built the Death Star I & 2, but a SSD nearly > > bankrupted the Empire?
> > Even given massive cost overruns and design problems they wouldn't even approach the DS > > costs. I'm not familiar
> > with the Overlord SSD. And let's not forget the Sovereign-class SD's, nor the unusual > > Allegiance SSD seen in DE.
>
> That's the point. KJA's contradicting everyone else (except, possibly, Zahn).
The two problems I have with KJA's work are these:
i) They ignore important portions of previous works and their
consequences (eg: Luke turns to the dark side but gets over it pretty
quick; whatever happened to Gilad Pellaeon?)
ii) He misinterprets a lot of events and material (eg: the size of the
Empire and the military)
> > At the time when the Empire ruled unquestioned, Black Sword Command had several shipyards at > > its disposal. By
> > 'Spectre of the Past', the Empire is reduced to eight sectors or so and a couple of hundred > > SD's.
>
> No. In the original Zahn books, there are three shipyards - Ord Trasi, Bilbringi and Yaga > Minor, I think. Three, in 1/4
> of the Galaxy. And Black Sword (less than 4 sectors) has dozens??
These are the three shipyards at full production turning out SD's. There
would probably be a lot of 'minor' specialising in repair work and
refitting, as well as many which had been damaged in the war, or weren't
recieving supplies. Hell, what happened to all the KDY and Sienar
facilities? KDY supposedly had a large number of major facilities all
across the galaxy. Like KJA, Zahn probably initially underestimated the
size of the Empire. If you have sector groups of 24 SD's and uncounted
support ships, they must have access to nearbly resupply, repair and
replacement facilities, preferably in every sector. I'm quite happy with
K-Mac's estimation of shipyard numbers.
> No. Braxant, the most important sector, has 13 SDs, giving a rough maximum of 8x13=104, so, > say, 100 SDs in the Sector
> Fleets. That leaves about 100 more under Pellaeon's command for a main task force and other > duties.
Fine, if a variant on standard Imperial procedure.
> > The worst damage was done by KJA. The Empire goes from struggling superpower to ineffective > > losers in about a year
> > or less. The fate of Pellaeon and the Rim/Outer Rim forces is left hanging for years - they > > lost at Bilbingri, but
> > still controlled about 1/2 the galaxy at the time of DE. How did the NR gain that territory > > so quickly?
>
> Right. And given that Pellaeon's Empire is pretty clearly not the Empire of Isard or Zsinj > etc, there are at least two,
> if not 4, continuities.
(snip)
I don't think it needs to be broken down into discrete 'continuities'.
What is *really* needed is a master reference, in which someone has gone
over the novels and comics with a fine tooth comb, then actively try to
repair serious errors and explain the gaps between the books.
> Exactly where Hambly and K-Mac go, I don't know[snip]
It seems that KJA is quietly exiting his role as high overseer of SW
continuity, and the Zahn/Stackpole/Allston triad is ascendancy. And I'll
take BFC over JA3 anyday, thank you. :)
> > That would be an interesting resolve to that thread. 'Truce' has a small scout force being > > defeated, so what
> > happened next? In 'Jedi Search' Mon Mothma mentions scout ships looking over the remains of > > the Ssi-Ruuk
> > Imperium...did Thrawn 'happen' to them? :)
>
> Interesting thought. Probably. Remember that one race whose art he didn't understand?.
Umm, no. Which novel/short story was that in?
RE: Rank mix-ups -
> > This is one of my biggest beefs. I fired off a letter to DHC about this, but no response. :(
>
> Glad to hear someone else agrees :-)
Absolutely. Allston's latest seems to fix things up somewhat. The only
new 'wrong' rank is General Crespin. Perhaps that works as he is charge
of a ground based fighter training facility. Maybe. Hmmm.
> > It seems to, but is actually easy to fix. Mass celebrations by those unhappy under the > > Empire, fade to credits,
> > Isard's stormtroopers march in and kill the lot.
>
> Hardly the way GL intended it.
But most amusing. :)
> Thanks for agreeing! :-)
No problem.
> Policrat'
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> > OK, I agree. KJA has beat the Death Star to death. I could buy JA, but reusing
> > the same idea for DS was a bit much. I did like the Sun Crusher though!
>
> nightcloak (remember that?)....
Well, I didn't think much of the Sun Crusher, but I kinda liked the
orbital nightcloak, simply because it was different. Like the World
Devastators, it wasn't just a case of 'point at nearest celestial body
and blow it up'. Some sort of imagination went into it.
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> You'd read your kids SW novels? :-) Let's see. Not KJA or Hambly... In fact, Zahn
> and a little Stackpole only (should be obvious).
A little Stackpole, a dash of K-Mac, mix in some Zahn. Mmmm, tasty. :)
> (IMHO the Will was a great villan just left to go to waste - Hambly just can't do
> evil characters, and, criminally, the one time she does (Tarkin), she misquotes an
> entire ANH scene in CotJ! Continuity?)
Agreed about the Will. I kept waiting for it to be a HAL-like entity, or
'Mother' from Alien - an omnipresent menace. But it just dribbled away
into nothing.
Obviously I am going to have read CotJ again. I recall it had some good
moments and I never thought of it as bad - it is just one of those SW
novels I haven't gone back to.
> "Oh yeah? You and whose Empire?"
> [last words of the last Autarch of the Ssi-Ruuk Imperium, addressed to the
> blue-skinned alien who'd just shown up in a big triangular spaceship over his
> homeworld.]
>
> Policrat'
LOL! Yes! This is something we HAVE to see.
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Brendon J Wahlberg
In article <199805152211...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Mattemerso <matte...@aol.com> wrote:
><<> > Then, the Byss-based "Dark Empire" appears, and disappears.
>>
>> A 'huge warfleet' emerges from the Deep Core and takes most the Galactic Core
>regions. The NR is in full retreat
>> with, I assume, its main fleets exhausted and out of position (previously
>they were fighting Thrawn on the Rim).
>> Across the galaxy the NR is being called the rebellion again. I assume
>Pellaeon and the Rim fleets join forces with
>> the Deep Core.
>
>reactor shaft on Endor to a new clone body on Byss cost him a LOT of energy. He
>needed the 5 years to recover.
Originally, Dark Empire was meant by Tom Veitch to occur just after ROTJ.
Then the powers that be set it after Zahn's books. So originally,
Palpatine did not wait six years to attack. It created a plot hole
when DE was moved in the timeline.
In some of my fanfic, I created an elaborate scenario to justify this
six year period, but really, it would have been easier and made more
sense if DE had just come right after ROTJ as intended!
My scenario had the Emperor's essence transfer to Mara Jade, who is then
taken to Byss where a new clone is inhabited. Using Mara as an unknowing host
meant leaving a lot of dark side energy behind, an energy which Leia
encounters above Endor in Zahn's book. Once in the new clone, Palpatine
is weak in the dark side, and his adepts become his teachers. I wrote one
story in between ROTJ and DE in which he recovers a lot of power.
My readers liked all of this, but it is convoluted. In the official fiction
alone, it is very hard to justify why exactly Palpatine must wait so long
before he takes revenge.
-Brendon
Brendon J Wahlberg
In article <355CF551...@hotmail.com>,
policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, as the one who wrote that fanfic, I thought I'd chime in.
>
I am in the middle of a sequel to "Journal of the Whills:The Preservers"
called "The Liberators". I'm 1/4 through a first draft. Family problems have
slowed things down.
>> I snipped most
>> of this fantastic analysis, but you are both impressive fans.
>
>Hope that's a compliment :-)
Yes, it is! I was just impressed by all the analysis of continuity, with
so much detail and such a grasp of the saga.
>you have earlier ESB draft scripts? Am I just dumb (probably) or are these not really available anywhere?
The only draft my group has is the fourth, and it can be found at
http://locals.onslowonline.net/~osgood/
aka the starkiller multimedia source page.
Wish there were more, but at least there's this one. Sate Pestage is in this
draft.
>I recognised the characted (worrying, that), and wondered if that was where Pestage came from. (Now I know better :-)
>Was the scene with the "original" S.P. ever shot?
Not to my knowledge.
policraticus
Brendon J Wahlberg wrote:
> In article <355CF551...@hotmail.com>,
> policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi, as the one who wrote that fanfic, I thought I'd chime in.
> >
> >Thanks. Great work, btw. Anything else due soon?
>
> I am in the middle of a sequel to "Journal of the Whills:The Preservers"
> called "The Liberators". I'm 1/4 through a first draft. Family problems have
> slowed things down.
Sorry to hear that, but (like most of the rest of RASSM, i think), looking forwards to the Liberators. Really liked the
characterisation (esp. of the Imperials and the aliens) in "Preservers" while we're on the subject.
> >> I snipped most
> >> of this fantastic analysis, but you are both impressive fans.
> >
> >Hope that's a compliment :-)
>
> Yes, it is! I was just impressed by all the analysis of continuity, with
> so much detail and such a grasp of the saga.
Aw, ta. :-)
kudos to Spec and everyone else who posted. It was a good thread.
<wistful, choked-back sob.>
> >you have earlier ESB draft scripts? Am I just dumb (probably) or are these not really available anywhere?
>
> The only draft my group has is the fourth, and it can be found at
> http://locals.onslowonline.net/~osgood/
> aka the starkiller multimedia source page.
Thanks
Policrat'
policraticus
[snip: why does Palpy wait 5 yrs before DE?]
Fair enough. I can buy the Dark Emperor continuity a lot more easliy than a lot of
the profic papering-over-the-cracks. But another question - what happens after the
original DE? Luke destroys all the Clones on Byss bar the one that goes up with the
Eclipse. I didn't pick up DE II until #3 or #4, but as I recal, there was some
problem with getting the Emperor 'back'.
Anyone?
Policrat'
Mattemerso
>Fair enough. I can buy the Dark Emperor continuity a lot more easliy than >a
lot of
>the profic papering-over-the-cracks. But another question - what >happens
after the
>original DE? Luke destroys all the Clones on Byss bar the one that goes >up
with the
>Eclipse. I didn't pick up DE II until #3 or #4, but as I recal, there was
>some
>problem with getting the Emperor 'back'.
The memory is fading... the problem was there was supposed to be a graphic
novel called Lightsider prior to DE II, but it was scrapped for some reason,
meaning we get a bunch of new characters with no explanation for DE II. All I
know is there were more clones! I'll have to reread.
MTFBWY
Matt
Mattemerso
<<I'll be interviewing Tom Veitch about Lightsider for Topps, and we'll
be covering the storyline of Lightsider -- stay tuned!
>>
Thanks, Rich! Of course, my dream is that Dark Horse will reconsider and
release Lightsider, but that seems very unlikely.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Brendon J Wahlberg
In article <3560D7D0...@hotmail.com>,
>the profic papering-over-the-cracks. But another question - what happens after the
>original DE? Luke destroys all the Clones on Byss bar the one that goes up with the
>Eclipse. I didn't pick up DE II until #3 or #4, but as I recal, there was some
>problem with getting the Emperor 'back'.
Somewhere in there it says the ex-Emperor had another clone lab below ground
under the Citadel. He takes another clone from there, but oops! It is diseased
and he begins to go insane and get a sort of cancer. Then two treacherous
adepts destroy the remaining clones. So he has to look for a new way to
survive. DEII and Empire's End, in my opinion, go way down hill in plot and
narrative quality as compared to DE. But note that each of the sequels were
supposed to be twice as long as they ended up. The stories had to be squeezed
when DH suddenly cut the number of issues in half, as if they were running
out of patience with the series. Tom Veitch is a good storyteller, and I give
him the benefit of the doubt that the sequels would have been better if they
had been the length he intended. Especially EE.
Mattemerso
>>[snip: why does Palpy wait 5 yrs before DE?]
>>
>>Fair enough. I can buy the Dark Emperor continuity a lot more easliy than a
lot of
>>the profic papering-over-the-cracks. But another question - what happens
after the
>>original DE? Luke destroys all the Clones on Byss bar the one that goes up
with the
>>Eclipse. I didn't pick up DE II until #3 or #4, but as I recal, there was
some
>>problem with getting the Emperor 'back'.
>Somewhere in there it says the ex-Emperor had another clone lab below >ground
>under the Citadel. He takes another clone from there, but oops! It is
>diseased
>and he begins to go insane and get a sort of cancer. Then two treacherous
>adepts destroy the remaining clones. So he has to look for a new way to
>survive. DEII and Empire's End, in my opinion, go way down hill in plot and
>narrative quality as compared to DE. But note that each of the sequels >were
>supposed to be twice as long as they ended up. The stories had to be >squeezed
>when DH suddenly cut the number of issues in half, as if they were >running
>out of patience with the series. Tom Veitch is a good storyteller, and I >give
>him the benefit of the doubt that the sequels would have been better if >they
>had been the length he intended. Especially EE.
I agree. I really have no complaints about DE II or EE, I just wish we had had
Lightsider, in addition to the longer stories. Now the Crimsom Empire trilogy
is adding even more material. Geez, some of the stories are getting longer than
the original trilogy!
MTFBWY,
Matt
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
[snip]
> Anyway...if Pellaeon was in absolute control of the Imp fleet, then
> surely he would have promoted himself to Admiral (or better)? He
> recognises himself as a competent if uninspired leader, and the need for
> rank recognition is necessary in a fragmentating of the Empire. How
> early did Zsinj go rogue (no pun intended)? I see references to Harrsk
> and Teradoc in the comics (approx 1 - 6 months post-Endor), but no
> Zsinj. I don't have the novels on-hand to refer to, d'oh.
Zsinj seems to have been kept in check by Isard for a few years, IIRC. Pellaeon chose not to promote himself because he was
always a by-the-book officer.
[snip]
> And keeping Thrawn in the dark seems...tricky, doesn't it?
Almost as hard as explaining what happened to Palpy and the other eleven Grand Admirals (not to mention most of the Grand Moffs)
between RotJ and HttE/DE....
[snip]
> It is a lot easier to construct a scenario in which the Empire destroys
> itself rather than the NR beginning a popular and military revolution. I
> too am uncomfortable with the idea of the Empire and warlords not simply
> squashing the NR, but we have to work with what we are given.
>
> All I can really visualise is the NR grabbing territories which are
> considered unimportant by any of the other parties at first, and as the
> warlords/Empire go for each others throats, the NR picks up the pieces.
> A lot of the novels and comics suggest that the Empire was losing its
> grip on the Outer Rim even before ANH (see the new Han Solo novels).
Fair enough, but it doesn't really cover the messed-up continuity.
> > > From my impression, the majority of cohesive Imperial power falls under Pellaeon and Thrawn. > > There are pockets of
> > > Imperial warlords left scattered around, but they are mainly interested in holding on to > > what they have. Thrawn
> > > returns from the Unknown Regions approx 4.5 years after Endor.
> >
> > Okay. This is the MAJOR threat to the Republic. Not Zsinj, not Harrsk, the cohesive quarter of > the Galaxy (still with
> > major worlds like Muunilinst) that's Imperial. So between Wedge's Gamble and Heir to the > Empire (2+ yrs) the Repubic
> > ingnores it? As they do from KJA to SotP?
>
> Hmm. Off the top of my head, the focus of the X-wing books after the
> fall of Coruscant is Zsinj. That does not necessarily mean that the NR
> isn't fighting the Empire - that part of the struggle is simply on the
> sidelines for the moment. Of course, it's a bit disturbing that all this
> isn't even *mentioned*. Even some throwaway references would be nice.
> Again, it is implied that there are quite a few warlords, but only
> Zsinj, Harrsk and Teradoc are mentioned. The others are basically
> ignored.
That's the problem. There even seems to be a Grand Moff, "Grand Moff Gann" ruling Sector 5 in the Deep Core (Shield of Lies,
p.79). It might be an assumed rank, but since his planetary Governors, however independant (like Foga Brill) haven't taken on
fancy titles, it might not. I think part of the problem is that no-one's quite sure what happened to the Empire after Endor. The
best that can be said is that the Imperials weren't quite sure either, but that's not the same as saying they gave up without a
fight. Thrawn was able to rally 1/4 of the Galaxy.
> As for KJA to SotP...how long did Pellaeon and Disra say an uneasy truce
> had held? A thing I *really* liked in SotP is Lando's comment that they
> didn't even come close to fighting the Empire's full strength, most of
> which was tied down holding down rebellions and secession. The NR has
> the same problem during the Corellian crisis.
Liked it too. Another of my major gripes with KJA is that he makes the SW Galaxy very thinly populated with ships. Zahn seems to
address this in SotP, but I still found giving Bel Iblis such a small squadron - and giving an Admiral an assault frigate - a
bit odd (but then I always equate "assault frigate" with "escort frigate", when Victory SD's probably a better comparisson.
Maybe it's because everyone except Zahn tends to forget that assault frigates are basically the NR's major human-built warships
until the K-mac 'new classes' come along.)
> > > This is a hiccup in the continuity that I can't explain. Perhaps the DE sourcebook explains > > it. I have no idea who
> > > these 'Inner Circle' guys are, but they may be some of the surviving warlords and advisors > > (seen in the RS comics
> > > arguing to overthrow Pestage) who have joined forces.
> > >
> >
> > No, they're pure and simple nonsense.
>
> Well, yes...but...oh I give up. You're right. At least until someone
> makes a concerted effort to explain it via a storyline or sourcebook.
Thanks :-) See the below (CE part of post) for more thoughts
> > > The Emperor is killed by Luke and Leia (kinda), the war machine is thrown into confusion. > > The Emperor's Darks Side
> > > Adepts attempt a coup, which Military Executor Sedriss puts an end to. The Emperor returns > > again (wince),
> > > 'Operation Shadow Hand' commences, but the final death of the Emperor at Onderon causes the > > Imperial fleet to
> > > fragment again. The NR again takes advantage, pushing the feuding Imps out of the Core.
> >
> > Tenuous. Why did Palpy wait 5 years?
>
> I skimmed some of the other messages, and someone mentioned he needed
> time to recover. I'll go with that. Maybe some sort of sadistic
> voyeurism involved as well. This *is* Palpatine, after all. :) He likes
> to watch. :)
LOL
> > No, Jax and Wessel between them have blackmailed the Council into compliance. (CE #0 at > starwars.com). Jax can also
> > strongarm Wessel fairly easily. If he's acting the Darth Vader, he's got Vader's power, and > wants to become Emperor.
>
> I haven't seen #0, for the simple reason I haven't thought much of CE so
> far. Is the Inner Council the same group as from DE? Probably not, but
> I'm clutching at the proverbial straws here...
I'm not sure. But two things really bother me: (a.) CE #0 clearly shows a Devaronian among the Councillors
(b.) There are supposedly 'disappointed' people with frustrated ambitions among the Council that's ruling the Empire after
EE! (CE #0 again). I know they had to get a way to get Carnor Jax into power, but....
> > > See above. The vast bulk of the galaxy from Core to Rim seems to have gone over to the > > Republic. A sector is a lot
> > > of space and worlds, but is probably insignificant compared to NR space.
> >
> > Okay, but it shouldn't have.
>
> Not so quickly I agree. Much of the continuity 'faults' are explainable,
> it is the *timing* I am concerned about. From JA3, it all happens too
> quickly. I would have thought another 5 yuears hard fighting *at least*
> were needed to beat Pellaeon and co, especially given the setbacks of
> DE.
Or, to put it another way, KJA messed up (tho' to be fair, he did start on JA3 before he knew of the DE comics).
> > > By now any pretence at centralised Imperial authority is gone, the Deep Core warlords are at > > open war with one
> > > another. Surviving warlords from other parts of the galaxy (Harssk etc)
> >
> > Harrsk was always a Core warlord - at least according to KJA
>
> Is this specifically stated? I really should have the books with me...
Darksaber, p.60.
[snip]
> AFAIK, it goes Deep Core, Core, Inner, Mid, Outer Rim and Unknown
> Regions. I thought the Oversectors were groups of several priority
> sectors that were experiencing unusually heavy rebel or pirate activity.
> Are you sure they are groupings of whole political segments of the
> galaxy?
Tarkin is "Grand Moff of the Outer Rim Oversector", so I presume so. Moffs command in Sectors, GMs in Oversectors. No "Commands"
in sight.
> > > This is just a screw up on KJA's behalf. They built the Death Star I & 2, but a SSD nearly > > bankrupted the Empire?
> > > Even given massive cost overruns and design problems they wouldn't even approach the DS > > costs. I'm not familiar
> > > with the Overlord SSD. And let's not forget the Sovereign-class SD's, nor the unusual > > Allegiance SSD seen in DE.
> >
> > That's the point. KJA's contradicting everyone else (except, possibly, Zahn).
>
> The two problems I have with KJA's work are these:
>
> i) They ignore important portions of previous works and their
> consequences (eg: Luke turns to the dark side but gets over it pretty
> quick; whatever happened to Gilad Pellaeon?)
>
> ii) He misinterprets a lot of events and material (eg: the size of the
> Empire and the military)
>
> > > At the time when the Empire ruled unquestioned, Black Sword Command had several shipyards at > > its disposal. By
> > > 'Spectre of the Past', the Empire is reduced to eight sectors or so and a couple of hundred > > SD's.
> >
> > No. In the original Zahn books, there are three shipyards - Ord Trasi, Bilbringi and Yaga > Minor, I think. Three, in 1/4
> > of the Galaxy. And Black Sword (less than 4 sectors) has dozens??
>
> These are the three shipyards at full production turning out SD's. There
> would probably be a lot of 'minor' specialising in repair work and
> refitting, as well as many which had been damaged in the war, or weren't
> recieving supplies. Hell, what happened to all the KDY and Sienar
> facilities? KDY supposedly had a large number of major facilities all
> across the galaxy. Like KJA, Zahn probably initially underestimated the
> size of the Empire. If you have sector groups of 24 SD's and uncounted
> support ships, they must have access to nearbly resupply, repair and
> replacement facilities, preferably in every sector. I'm quite happy with
> K-Mac's estimation of shipyard numbers.
So am I. The difference is in scale. Each K-Mac yard can build a few ISDs. Each Zahn yard probably has dozens of things on the
go at once. But at the height of the British Empire, the Royal Navy managed with four major shipyards - Belfast, Clydebank,
Tyneside and Devonport, if I remember right - and only one (?) was actually navy-run. (very hazy memory). My main problem is
that K-Mac just contradicts Zahn.
> > No. Braxant, the most important sector, has 13 SDs, giving a rough maximum of 8x13=104, so, > say, 100 SDs in the Sector
> > Fleets. That leaves about 100 more under Pellaeon's command for a main task force and other > duties.
>
> Fine, if a variant on standard Imperial procedure.
Except that SW.com seems to have stirred everything up. This comes from the new (and very well-researched) archive at
http://www.starwars.com/vehicles/star_destroyer/
The Imperial Navy is organized into fleets, which are
composed of one Imperial-class Star Destroyer accompanied
by support and lesser combat ships. Each fleet can operate
independently. In practice, Star Destroyers can be combined in
Task Forces of three, Sector Squadrons of six, or Regional and
Territorial Fleets of 24 - but it is unusual for more than one to
occupy the same star system, except for ceremonial purposes.
Such concentrations of force are rarely necessary - there are
few things which can seriously challenge even one Star
Destroyer.
"Territorial Fleets" of 24? The phrase "Outer Rim Territories" sounds horribly familiar. This would suggest 120 SDs in the
fleet, far short of Zahn's 25k, and not far beyond KJA's 45 in the Core (shudder) unless there are actually 200 "Territories" in
each Oversector.
[snip]
> > > That would be an interesting resolve to that thread. 'Truce' has a small scout force being > > defeated, so what
> > > happened next? In 'Jedi Search' Mon Mothma mentions scout ships looking over the remains of > > the Ssi-Ruuk
> > > Imperium...did Thrawn 'happen' to them? :)
> >
> > Interesting thought. Probably. Remember that one race whose art he didn't understand?.
>
> Umm, no. Which novel/short story was that in?
It's in TLC, I think. A passing remark from Thrawn to Pellaeon.
> RE: Rank mix-ups -
>
> > > This is one of my biggest beefs. I fired off a letter to DHC about this, but no response. :(
> >
> > Glad to hear someone else agrees :-)
>
> Absolutely. Allston's latest seems to fix things up somewhat. The only
> new 'wrong' rank is General Crespin. Perhaps that works as he is charge
> of a ground based fighter training facility. Maybe. Hmmm.
Allston does what Zahn does and cuts out all the ranks between Commander and Lieutenant. Very late-Victorian. Only problem is
that IIRC, "Squadron Leader" is used in the films.
> > > It seems to, but is actually easy to fix. Mass celebrations by those unhappy under the > > Empire, fade to credits,
> > > Isard's stormtroopers march in and kill the lot.
> >
> > Hardly the way GL intended it.
>
> But most amusing. :)
In a sick sort of way :-)
> > Thanks for agreeing! :-)
>
> No problem.
Except with the continuity...
Policrat'
policraticus
> >D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just >show
> them the
> >films.
>
> The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke losing
> his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger days) for
> Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
> birthdays. It has more impact.
Fair enough. Personally, it was the Tuskens and Jabba's Palace that sent me running
at age four. Speaking of which....
> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
> >Iliad at
> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's >reading,
> or most
> >other things, for that matter.]
>
> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
No. 3 :-)
> and was reading
> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced his
> life.]
Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste for
eclecticism :-)
> >> >> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
> >> >>
> >> >> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends
> you
> >> make
> >> >> along the way.
> >>
> >> >Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a field a
> >> >few
> >> >miles off.)
> >>
> >> Each Jedi must forge his own path. I'll find a way, you make one.
>
> >Good luck. Hope you packed a map.
>
> Well, since until recently I considered KJA my tour guide, I may be in trouble.
Oh dear.
[snip: Luke and getting beaten up]
> >Um, when else did Luke have a character-building scene :-)
>
> The scene in Jedi where he spoke with Obi-Wan after Yoda's passing springs to
> mind. Luke is a tough character to write, which may be why people prefer Han to
> Luke. IMO.
Point. Does IMO mean a disHonest oppinion or a not very Humble one (IMHO, it's not
important :-)
[snip]
> Well, we're STILL debating the new end of Jedi, so who knows? I agree it was a
> good thing to ditch the Yub-Yub theme, which sounded suspiciously like the
> Seseme Street theme and adding the celebrations was a cool way to show off FX,
> but kinda contridicts stuff. 1. Why would a Imperial garrison (Bespin)
> celebrate the fall of the Emperor? 2. Same with "a hive of scum and villainy"
> (Mos) 3. The freaking seat of Imperial power??? (Cour.) Oh and how is it said
> three places knew off the fall but it missed Bakura?
I dunno. Perhaps those are just the Victory Day celebrations 20 years later. Or
maybe the entire novel continuity's up the spout ?:-)
[snip]
> >And why did she change the Night Hammer's [sic] name to "Eye of >Palpatine"?
> (you
> >didn't think KJA could invent a name that good, did you?)
>
> Hmmm... memory is fuzzy. I only remember the Knight Hammer in DS. Also, I still
> haven't read PoT yet, so that may be part.
Hambly was originally going to call the dreadnaught/asteroid/battlemoon (she could
never decide what it was, could she :-) "Night Hammer", but changed this to "Eye of
Palpatine" for reasons unknown. KJA, in one of his last lucid moments, borrowed the
name for Darksaber, changing it to "Knight Hammer".
[Policrat just tested a Death Star on about 1/2 the post here]
> >> True, true. Much as we love Zahn and Stackpole, I'm sure they've screwed up
> >> from time to time too. I appricate if someone would just sit down and write
> a
> >> book that says "This and this happened, but this and this didn't." Settle
> this
> >> whole mess for good and all.
>
> >I think KJA was down to do one (called "The Jedi Holocron" or something).
> >Anyone
> >know what happened to it?
>
> >[snip]
>
> Last I heard, it's supposed to be out in May 1999, just before Episode 1. But
> isn't having KJA do it like asking the fox to guard the henhouse?
Good news! For whatever reason, according to tF.n, the book's being passed to Del
Rey, who're turning it into an Essential Guide, co-written by Dan Wallace. Still
doesn't answer the continuity problems....
[snip]
> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded >back to
> that
> > strange place called "sanity")
>
> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor acting and
> flimsy stories.)
Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
Policrat'
Mattemerso
>> >D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just
>>show
>> them the
>> >films.
>>
>> The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke
losing
>> his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger days)
for
>> Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
>> birthdays. It has more impact.
>Fair enough. Personally, it was the Tuskens and Jabba's Palace that sent >me
running
>at age four. Speaking of which....
Tuskens I get. That scream always bugged me. Jabba's was weird, but not too
scary. Except for the rancor in the basement.
>> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
>> >Iliad at
>> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
>>reading,
>> or most
>> >other things, for that matter.]
>>
>> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
>No. 3 :-)
What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
>> and was reading
>> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced his
>> life.]
>Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste for
>eclecticism :-)
Never read 'em so I can't say. The people who shaped me most in terms of
writing were Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. God, I read those books to tatters for
years.
>> >> >> >> The road to Jedi-hood is long and hard and I have only just begun.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Happy walking/levitating/Yogic Flying....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So long as I don't travel alone, the road is most fun with the friends
>> you
>> >> make
>> >> >> along the way.
>> >>
>> >> >Well, hi there. (sorry. was never good with roads. I think I'm in a
field a
>> >> >few
>> >> >miles off.)
>> >>
>> >> Each Jedi must forge his own path. I'll find a way, you make one.
>>
>> >Good luck. Hope you packed a map.
>>
>> Well, since until recently I considered KJA my tour guide, I may be in
trouble.
>Oh dear.
Thanks, Threepio!
>[snip: Luke and getting beaten up]
>> >Um, when else did Luke have a character-building scene :-)
>>
>> The scene in Jedi where he spoke with Obi-Wan after Yoda's passing springs
to
>> mind. Luke is a tough character to write, which may be why people prefer Han
to
>> Luke. IMO.
>Point. Does IMO mean a disHonest oppinion or a not very Humble one >(IMHO,
it's not
>important :-)
I'm a humble guy. I'll just give my opinion and stick to it.
> [snip]
>> Well, we're STILL debating the new end of Jedi, so who knows? I agree it was
a
>> good thing to ditch the Yub-Yub theme, which sounded suspiciously like the
>> Seseme Street theme and adding the celebrations was a cool way to show off
FX,
>> but kinda contridicts stuff. 1. Why would a Imperial garrison (Bespin)
>> celebrate the fall of the Emperor? 2. Same with "a hive of scum and
villainy"
>> (Mos) 3. The freaking seat of Imperial power??? (Cour.) Oh and how is it
said
>> three places knew off the fall but it missed Bakura?
>I dunno. Perhaps those are just the Victory Day celebrations 20 years >later.
Or
>maybe the entire novel continuity's up the spout ?:-)
Grrrr... I was pissed at George for doing that. Still am. Personally, I would
have been content with just SE for SW and ESB, since I think he maid ROTJ
worse. I mean Jedi Rocks was worse than the Ewoks, then the new ending pretty
buch blasted the books like the Death Star.
>[snip]
>> >And why did she change the Night Hammer's [sic] name to "Eye of
>>Palpatine"?
>> (you
>> >didn't think KJA could invent a name that good, did you?)
>>
>> Hmmm... memory is fuzzy. I only remember the Knight Hammer in DS. Also, I
still
>> haven't read PoT yet, so that may be part.
>Hambly was originally going to call the >dreadnaught/asteroid/battlemoon (she
could
>never decide what it was, could she :-) "Night Hammer", but changed this >to
"Eye of
>Palpatine" for reasons unknown. KJA, in one of his last lucid moments,
>borrowed the
>name for Darksaber, changing it to "Knight Hammer".
All Hambly could deterimine was Palpy had an ego the size of Jupiter to name a
whatever-it-was after himself when he wasn't even Emperor yet! I think the
Callista series is where SW starts to go south for me.
>[Policrat just tested a Death Star on about 1/2 the post here]
(cough,cough) You want to kill me but you can't! :-)
>> >> True, true. Much as we love Zahn and Stackpole, I'm sure they've screwed
up
>> >> from time to time too. I appricate if someone would just sit down and
write
>> a
>> >> book that says "This and this happened, but this and this didn't." Settle
>> this
>> >> whole mess for good and all.
>>
>> >I think KJA was down to do one (called "The Jedi Holocron" or something).
>> >Anyone
>> >know what happened to it?
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> Last I heard, it's supposed to be out in May 1999, just before Episode 1.
But
>> isn't having KJA do it like asking the fox to guard the henhouse?
>Good news! For whatever reason, according to tF.n, the book's being >passed to
Del
>Rey, who're turning it into an Essential Guide, co-written by Dan Wallace.
>Still
>doesn't answer the continuity problems....
By the time the thing gets out, it'll be outdated. Look at the Essential Guide
to Characters. Seriously, if someone HAD to do a story that told EVERY single
story in the history of SW from The Sith Saga all the way to YJK, I'd pick
Stackpole. He's the biggest stickler for the details.
>[snip]
>> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded >>back
to
>> that
>> > strange place called "sanity")
>>
>> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor >acting
and
>> flimsy stories.)
>Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point in our
lives.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
>>Thanks, Rich! Of course, my dream is that Dark Horse will reconsider and
>>release Lightsider, but that seems very unlikely.
>Unfortunately, that likely won't ever happen, which is a shame since
>I've read Lightsider and it's FANTASTIC. (For the record, though, it
>wasn't Lucasfilm who decided not to have it published -- it was Tom
>Veitch.)
Huh? I was under the impression Dark Horse cut it because of time constraints.
DE II and EE suffered simmilar fates. If the story is fantastic, and why
wouldn't it be, why would Vetch change his mind and pull it, since it is key to
DE II?
MTFBWY,
Matt
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> Zsinj seems to have been kept in check by Isard for a few years, IIRC. Pellaeon chose not to > promote himself because he was
> always a by-the-book officer.
You're right, Zsinj gets active when the RS novels came along about 2.5
years Post-Endor. As for Pellaeon's lack of self-promotion, I'm not
convinced. He cannot be content to be 'first among equals' - a clear
chain of command must be preserved. I assume he was serving under Isard,
as she was the one in control of the bulk of the Empire until Corusant
fell. Why didn't she promote him? (Note that Wraith Squadron refers
distinctly to the Empire, NR and warlords. I assume the Empire was under
the control of Pellaeon at that time.)
> Almost as hard as explaining what happened to Palpy and the other eleven Grand Admirals (not to > mention most of the Grand Moffs)
> between RotJ and HttE/DE....
I don't see Palpatine as a problem. I can go along with the 'recovery'
explanation. Whether he foresaw his defeat at Endor, or had a convenient
escape-hatch 'just in case' is another matter entirely.
As for the other Grand Admirals...another Outbound Flight project? :)
Or, maybe they were all travelling to a defence exhibition in a lone,
unescorted shuttle and Isard offed them.
Seriously, though, the last may have happened, if not in such a
ridiculous way. She may have pulled a Daala on them. Invited them all to
talks on the future of the Empire, and killed at least most of them.
Just a thought.
Of course, they are Grand Admirals, and just may have worked out that
Isard was a psychotic bitch. :)
> > Hmm. Off the top of my head, the focus of the X-wing books after the
> > fall of Coruscant is Zsinj. That does not necessarily mean that the NR
> > isn't fighting the Empire - that part of the struggle is simply on the
> > sidelines for the moment. Of course, it's a bit disturbing that all this
> > isn't even *mentioned*. Even some throwaway references would be nice.
> > Again, it is implied that there are quite a few warlords, but only
> > Zsinj, Harrsk and Teradoc are mentioned. The others are basically
> > ignored.
>
> That's the problem. There even seems to be a Grand Moff, "Grand Moff Gann" ruling Sector 5 in > the Deep Core (Shield of Lies,
> p.79). It might be an assumed rank, but since his planetary Governors, however independant > (like Foga Brill) haven't taken on
> fancy titles, it might not. I think part of the problem is that no-one's quite sure what > happened to the Empire after Endor. The
> best that can be said is that the Imperials weren't quite sure either, but that's not the same > as saying they gave up without a
> fight. Thrawn was able to rally 1/4 of the Galaxy.
Have you read SOTE:E yet? It implies that *weeks* after the Battle of
Endor most of the Empire has surrendered. WEEKS! Lord help us. I mean,
it's not even as if they had an excuse like the first few X-wing comics
had - that the concept for Post-Endor Empire had not yet been really
established. SOTE:E has the weight of material of masses of novels and
comics giving them a rough guide, but they still got it wrong.
> Liked it too. Another of my major gripes with KJA is that he makes the SW Galaxy very thinly > populated with ships. Zahn seems to
> address this in SotP, but I still found giving Bel Iblis such a small squadron - and giving an > Admiral an assault frigate - a
> bit odd (but then I always equate "assault frigate" with "escort frigate", when Victory SD's > probably a better comparisson.
> Maybe it's because everyone except Zahn tends to forget that assault frigates are basically the > NR's major human-built warships
> until the K-mac 'new classes' come along.)
IIRC, SotP is set after the BFC. Hence, the 'new classes' should be
fairly widespread. But I don't recall reading about them in Zahn's
novel.
Another thing - was the fleet of VSD's in Darksabre newly built, or just
repaints of early models? If the former, why on Earth were the Deep Core
Imps building out-of-date warships?
> > I haven't seen #0, for the simple reason I haven't thought much of CE so
> > far. Is the Inner Council the same group as from DE? Probably not, but
> > I'm clutching at the proverbial straws here...
>
> I'm not sure. But two things really bother me: (a.) CE #0 clearly shows a Devaronian among > the Councillors
Eh? Stackpole and co. clearly established the Empire's NhM policy
(Non-huMAn), so why is a Devaronian on the Council? They got away with
it in the comic 'Requiem for a Rogue' because Cartariun (sp?) was 'a
lowly tech'.
> (b.) There are supposedly 'disappointed' people with frustrated ambitions among the Council > that's ruling the Empire after
> EE! (CE #0 again). I know they had to get a way to get Carnor Jax into power, but....
I'm not sure I follow you here.
> > > Harrsk was always a Core warlord - at least according to KJA
> >
> > Is this specifically stated? I really should have the books with me...
>
> Darksaber, p.60.
Strange that when I moved house in February I left Darksabre packed away
at home. Might be a subconscious thing. :)
> > AFAIK, it goes Deep Core, Core, Inner, Mid, Outer Rim and Unknown
> > Regions. I thought the Oversectors were groups of several priority
> > sectors that were experiencing unusually heavy rebel or pirate activity.
> > Are you sure they are groupings of whole political segments of the
> > galaxy?
>
> Tarkin is "Grand Moff of the Outer Rim Oversector", so I presume so. Moffs command in Sectors, > GMs in Oversectors. No "Commands"
> in sight.
There even seems to be some confusion over the label of Moff - other
books/comics have placed Moff's as planetary governors - the Moff from
the first RS comic series springs to mind.
I don't remember seeing the term 'Oversector' before. One day I'll
actually pick up the Imperial sourcebook. I don't know how to reconcile
the 'Commands' enigma either.
> So am I. The difference is in scale. Each K-Mac yard can build a few ISDs. Each Zahn yard > probably has dozens of things on the
> go at once. But at the height of the British Empire, the Royal Navy managed with four major > shipyards - Belfast, Clydebank,
> Tyneside and Devonport, if I remember right - and only one (?) was actually navy-run. (very > hazy memory). My main problem is
> that K-Mac just contradicts Zahn.
Glasgow wasn't in there somewhere? There were major commercial shipyards
there IIRC (I was born in Edinburgh, myself). Was Scapa Flow just a
naval base or did/does it hold repair yards?
And I would go with the K-Mac scenario myself - it makes more sense.
They are not necessarily irreconcilable - Zahn just focuses on the
biggest, war-effort critical shipyards that are fully functional.
> Except that SW.com seems to have stirred everything up. This comes from the new (and very > well-researched) archive at
>
> http://www.starwars.com/vehicles/star_destroyer/
>
> The Imperial Navy is organized into fleets, which are
> composed of one Imperial-class Star Destroyer accompanied
> by support and lesser combat ships. Each fleet can operate
> independently. In practice, Star Destroyers can be combined in
> Task Forces of three, Sector Squadrons of six, or Regional and
> Territorial Fleets of 24 - but it is unusual for more than one to
> occupy the same star system, except for ceremonial purposes.
> Such concentrations of force are rarely necessary - there are
> few things which can seriously challenge even one Star
> Destroyer.
>
> "Territorial Fleets" of 24? The phrase "Outer Rim Territories" sounds horribly familiar. This > would suggest 120 SDs in the
> fleet, far short of Zahn's 25k, and not far beyond KJA's 45 in the Core (shudder) unless there > are actually 200 "Territories" in
> each Oversector.
I'm actually starting to get aggravated at this. OK, WEG screws up some
of the details on SD's and the composition of the Imp fleet, and
Lucasfilm toes the line. But now they can't even stay internally
consistent! 120 SD's to defend the Empire?! Either the Empire is a lot
smaller than suggested in the novels and comics, or SD's are a lot more
powerful. I'm sorry, but 120 SD's cannot hold down an Empire of between
1 million (conservative) and 12 million (upper end) star systems.
(I'm sure someone will say this isn't very important, but I am a
stickler for details...)
> > > Interesting thought. Probably. Remember that one race whose art he didn't understand?.
> >
> > Umm, no. Which novel/short story was that in?
>
> It's in TLC, I think. A passing remark from Thrawn to Pellaeon.
Hmm. That would be another case of retroactive continuity then. TAB
hadn't been written then.
If it is from TLC, that is.
> > No problem.
>
> Except with the continuity...
Agreed.
(looks at watch) Gah! Now look what you made me do! I'm late for class!
:)
> Policrat'
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> Except that SW.com seems to have stirred everything up. This comes from the new >(and very well-researched) archive at
>
> http://www.starwars.com/vehicles/star_destroyer/
>
> The Imperial Navy is organized into fleets, which are
> composed of one Imperial-class Star Destroyer accompanied
> by support and lesser combat ships. Each fleet can operate
> independently. In practice, Star Destroyers can be combined in
> Task Forces of three, Sector Squadrons of six, or Regional and
> Territorial Fleets of 24 - but it is unusual for more than one to
> occupy the same star system, except for ceremonial purposes.
> Such concentrations of force are rarely necessary - there are
> few things which can seriously challenge even one Star
> Destroyer.
I just visited the site for a quick look, and within a couple of
minutes, guess what I had found?
"The personal flagship of Darth Vader, the Executor, is
the Empire's first Super-class Star Destroyer. The
Executor is over eight times the size of an Imperial-class
Star Destroyer."
Now if I do the math right, that is 12.8km, not the 8km 'myth' that WEG
perpetuates.
And yet, it is still short of the movie ship length, which looks around
16km or so.
So now we have *three* SSD lengths. Sigh.
BTW, it looks like the text for the SD was lifted straight from the WEG
Star Wars Sourcebook.
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
> >> >D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just
> >>show
> >> them the
> >> >films.
> >>
> >> The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke
> losing
> >> his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger days)
> for
> >> Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
> >> birthdays. It has more impact.
>
> >Fair enough. Personally, it was the Tuskens and Jabba's Palace that sent >me
> running
> >at age four. Speaking of which....
>
> Tuskens I get. That scream always bugged me. Jabba's was weird, but not too
> scary. Except for the rancor in the basement.
It was the creatures that got me. The fact that everyone was walking into the hands
of these big ugly latex things. Yuk!
> >> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
> >> >Iliad at
> >> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
> >>reading,
> >> or most
> >> >other things, for that matter.]
> >>
> >> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
>
> >No. 3 :-)
>
> What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
?
> >> and was reading
> >> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced his
> >> life.]
>
> >Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste for
> >eclecticism :-)
>
> Never read 'em so I can't say. The people who shaped me most in terms of
> writing were Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. God, I read those books to tatters for
> years.
C.S. Lewis, that's a point. A very good point. Sorry, never read Tolkein beyond
"The Hobbit". But the two of them's favourite pub is about 200yrds NW of me right
now.[snip]
> >> Well, we're STILL debating the new end of Jedi, so who knows? I agree it was
> a
> >> good thing to ditch the Yub-Yub theme, which sounded suspiciously like the
> >> Seseme Street theme and adding the celebrations was a cool way to show off
> FX,
> >> but kinda contridicts stuff. 1. Why would a Imperial garrison (Bespin)
> >> celebrate the fall of the Emperor? 2. Same with "a hive of scum and
> villainy"
> >> (Mos) 3. The freaking seat of Imperial power??? (Cour.) Oh and how is it
> said
> >> three places knew off the fall but it missed Bakura?
>
> >I dunno. Perhaps those are just the Victory Day celebrations 20 years >later.
> Or
> >maybe the entire novel continuity's up the spout ?:-)
>
> Grrrr... I was pissed at George for doing that. Still am. Personally, I would
> have been content with just SE for SW and ESB, since I think he maid ROTJ
> worse. I mean Jedi Rocks was worse than the Ewoks, then the new ending pretty
> buch blasted the books like the Death Star.
Perhaps that's the point. Though it's a spectacular, feel-good Lucas ending in a
way that the original one never was.
> >[snip]
>
> >> >And why did she change the Night Hammer's [sic] name to "Eye of
> >>Palpatine"?
> >> (you
> >> >didn't think KJA could invent a name that good, did you?)
> >>
> >> Hmmm... memory is fuzzy. I only remember the Knight Hammer in DS. Also, I
> still
> >> haven't read PoT yet, so that may be part.
>
> >Hambly was originally going to call the >dreadnaught/asteroid/battlemoon (she
> could
> >never decide what it was, could she :-) "Night Hammer", but changed this >to
> "Eye of
> >Palpatine" for reasons unknown. KJA, in one of his last lucid moments,
> >borrowed the
> >name for Darksaber, changing it to "Knight Hammer".
>
> All Hambly could deterimine was Palpy had an ego the size of Jupiter to name a
> whatever-it-was after himself when he wasn't even Emperor yet! I think the
> Callista series is where SW starts to go south for me.
It still JUST held me there. Mind you, after KJA, anything was up, but after
re-reading, and the disappointment of PoT, I'm less convinced. If you think about
it, Bantam are finally getting their act together: after the mess begun by KJA,
they've not been too bad recently (K-Mac, Stackpole, Allston, and more Zahn).
IMHO, The difference between Stackpole (and Zahn and Allston and K-Mac and above
all, Lucas) and KJA is that, while the former lot always have a lot of references
to things that are never explained (eg Alderaanian Expeditions), and to obscure
bits of SW lore, (eg Domina Tagge) creating a far richer fictional universe, KJA
has to have everything set out on the page, and if he uses something obscure, it's
to explain the interest out of it. Probably good as a kids' author, and I enjoyed
the DE trade paperback intro, but disappointing in JA3.
Thoughts?
> >[snip]
>
> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded >>back
> to
> >> that
> >> > strange place called "sanity")
> >>
> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor >acting
> and
> >> flimsy stories.)
>
> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
>
> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point in our
> lives.
Was I?
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > Zsinj seems to have been kept in check by Isard for a few years, IIRC. Pellaeon chose not to > promote himself because he was
> > always a by-the-book officer.
>
> You're right, Zsinj gets active when the RS novels came along about 2.5
> years Post-Endor. As for Pellaeon's lack of self-promotion, I'm not
> convinced. He cannot be content to be 'first among equals' - a clear
> chain of command must be preserved.
Equally, when there is no chain of command, Pellaeon wouldn't take it upon himself to promote himself. He might assume the (temporary)
rank of Commodore, but then he'd resign it when Thrawn turned up. I'm guessing that it was an Admiral or Commodore commanding Chimaera
who was killed at Endor, with Pellaeon (like Piet before Ozzel was killed) holding the rank of Captain but acting as first officer. As
Flag-Captain, Pellaeon would automatically be the senior captain of his Admiral/Commodore's squadron, and after the Executor went up and
other Admirals - Harrsk with whatever ships he took, and Trigit with the Implacable, if either of them actually held flag rank - fled,
the senior captain in the Fleet. Thus his assumption of command, as the senior surviving officer, was fully within the chain of command.
> I assume he was serving under Isard,
> as she was the one in control of the bulk of the Empire until Corusant
> fell. Why didn't she promote him?
No! The very fact Pellaeon was never promoted, yet retained command of the most important fleet units, implies that there was no-one to
promote him - he was on his own. Also, the fact that the Ubiqutorate accepted Pellaeon and Thrawn (though Isard had removed them in her
Empire in her putsch to take over Imperial Intelligence and then Coruscant) shows that we're dealing with two rival Empires.
> (Note that Wraith Squadron refers
> distinctly to the Empire, NR and warlords. I assume the Empire was under
> the control of Pellaeon at that time.)
I'd buy that - but it ain't Isard's Empire (see above).
> > Almost as hard as explaining what happened to Palpy and the other eleven Grand Admirals (not to > mention most of the Grand Moffs)
> > between RotJ and HttE/DE....
>
> I don't see Palpatine as a problem. I can go along with the 'recovery'
> explanation. Whether he foresaw his defeat at Endor, or had a convenient
> escape-hatch 'just in case' is another matter entirely.
>
> As for the other Grand Admirals...another Outbound Flight project? :)
>
> Or, maybe they were all travelling to a defence exhibition in a lone,
> unescorted shuttle and Isard offed them.
>
> Seriously, though, the last may have happened, if not in such a
> ridiculous way. She may have pulled a Daala on them. Invited them all to
> talks on the future of the Empire, and killed at least most of them.
> Just a thought.
>
> Of course, they are Grand Admirals, and just may have worked out that
> Isard was a psychotic bitch. :)
Doesn't Han say "I thought WE had taken care of them all" in DFR? Implies that between Endor and HttE, the NR had beaten the other GAs.
Of course, the Empire itself took out Zarin (sp?) in "TIE fighter" (I'm willing to accept that as canon because it explains why everyone
knows there should be 12 GAs, but no-one knows about the 12th; Thrawn replaced Zarin without any official anouncement) but that still
leaves 11!
> > > Hmm. Off the top of my head, the focus of the X-wing books after the
> > > fall of Coruscant is Zsinj. That does not necessarily mean that the NR
> > > isn't fighting the Empire - that part of the struggle is simply on the
> > > sidelines for the moment. Of course, it's a bit disturbing that all this
> > > isn't even *mentioned*. Even some throwaway references would be nice.
> > > Again, it is implied that there are quite a few warlords, but only
> > > Zsinj, Harrsk and Teradoc are mentioned. The others are basically
> > > ignored.
> >
> > That's the problem. There even seems to be a Grand Moff, "Grand Moff Gann" ruling Sector 5 in > the Deep Core (Shield of Lies,
> > p.79). It might be an assumed rank, but since his planetary Governors, however independant > (like Foga Brill) haven't taken on
> > fancy titles, it might not. I think part of the problem is that no-one's quite sure what > happened to the Empire after Endor. The
> > best that can be said is that the Imperials weren't quite sure either, but that's not the same > as saying they gave up without a
> > fight. Thrawn was able to rally 1/4 of the Galaxy.
>
> Have you read SOTE:E yet? It implies that *weeks* after the Battle of
> Endor most of the Empire has surrendered. WEEKS! Lord help us. I mean,
> it's not even as if they had an excuse like the first few X-wing comics
> had - that the concept for Post-Endor Empire had not yet been really
> established. SOTE:E has the weight of material of masses of novels and
> comics giving them a rough guide, but they still got it wrong.
That's the problem. I can, just about, accept a bit of chaos before Pellaeon and/or Isard provide a rallying-point, but not utter
surrender.
> > Liked it too. Another of my major gripes with KJA is that he makes the SW Galaxy very thinly > populated with ships. Zahn seems to
> > address this in SotP, but I still found giving Bel Iblis such a small squadron - and giving an > Admiral an assault frigate - a
> > bit odd (but then I always equate "assault frigate" with "escort frigate", when Victory SD's > probably a better comparisson.
> > Maybe it's because everyone except Zahn tends to forget that assault frigates are basically the > NR's major human-built warships
> > until the K-mac 'new classes' come along.)
>
> IIRC, SotP is set after the BFC. Hence, the 'new classes' should be
> fairly widespread. But I don't recall reading about them in Zahn's
> novel.
There's a brief mention of the Diamala having Nebula-class SDs and Endurance-class carriers (p.330). I think they're basically confined
to the 5 main fleets and the member races' own defence forces. Out on the Rim, Dreadnaughts and Assault Frigates are probably still the
main fleet presence - they're the most powerful ships the NR has apart from SDs, and it doesn't seem to have many of those.
> Another thing - was the fleet of VSD's in Darksabre newly built, or just
> repaints of early models? If the former, why on Earth were the Deep Core
> Imps building out-of-date warships?
Terradoc was building masses of VSDs to gain a tactical advantage. If you look at DE, there are quite a few VSDs, but they're smaller
than the VSD-I and VSD-II, and don't have the 'Victory-V' fins or hangar-bays. They seem to be designed for speed and turbolaser
firepower, and probably cost a fraction of what an ISD does. In a straight fight, 3 or 4 VSDs modified to blast capital ships - no ion
cannon, no TIEs - can overwhelm an ISD. This is what KJA has Terradoc use them for, but (this being a good idea) he seems to have got the
idea from Veitch/Kennedy's "Dark Empire" tactical philosophy (the Dark Empire also has a lot of what look like dedicated carriers,
presumably command ships that hang back and provide fighter support while the VSDs, and similarly redesigned ISDs and Avenger-class SSDs
roundhouse with the enemy). Harrsk's flagship Shockwave, incedentally, seems to be designed along the same lines, and may be
Avenger-class.
> > > I haven't seen #0, for the simple reason I haven't thought much of CE so
> > > far. Is the Inner Council the same group as from DE? Probably not, but
> > > I'm clutching at the proverbial straws here...
> >
> > I'm not sure. But two things really bother me: (a.) CE #0 clearly shows a Devaronian among > the Councillors
>
> Eh? Stackpole and co. clearly established the Empire's NhM policy
> (Non-huMAn), so why is a Devaronian on the Council? They got away with
> it in the comic 'Requiem for a Rogue' because Cartariun (sp?) was 'a
> lowly tech'.
That's what bothers me.
> > (b.) There are supposedly 'disappointed' people with frustrated ambitions among the Council > that's ruling the Empire after
> > EE! (CE #0 again). I know they had to get a way to get Carnor Jax into power, but....
>
> I'm not sure I follow you here.
Disappointed? Frustrated ambitions? As one of a handful of people ruling an Empire that (after EE) still comprises 1/2 the Galaxy?
Methinks not!
> > > > Harrsk was always a Core warlord - at least according to KJA
> > >
> > > Is this specifically stated? I really should have the books with me...
> >
> > Darksaber, p.60.
>
> Strange that when I moved house in February I left Darksabre packed away
> at home. Might be a subconscious thing. :)
Probably.
> > > AFAIK, it goes Deep Core, Core, Inner, Mid, Outer Rim and Unknown
> > > Regions. I thought the Oversectors were groups of several priority
> > > sectors that were experiencing unusually heavy rebel or pirate activity.
> > > Are you sure they are groupings of whole political segments of the
> > > galaxy?
> >
> > Tarkin is "Grand Moff of the Outer Rim Oversector", so I presume so. Moffs command in Sectors, > GMs in Oversectors. No "Commands"
> > in sight.
>
> There even seems to be some confusion over the label of Moff - other
> books/comics have placed Moff's as planetary governors - the Moff from
> the first RS comic series springs to mind.
I'd imagine that important worlds have their own Moff. (Presumably you mean Tavira's lover on Eiattu 4, and don't forget the Moff of
Elshandruu Pica - Bacta War p.243 - which seems to be a fairly well-known world, mentioned casually in conversation). Very minor worlds
only have Military Prefects (cf Tales from the Empire), while some are semi-autonomous under local rulers (cf the Viceroy of Alderaan,
and the Diktat of Corellia - who seems to rule a very large and long-established Sector).
> I don't remember seeing the term 'Oversector' before. One day I'll
> actually pick up the Imperial sourcebook. I don't know how to reconcile
> the 'Commands' enigma either.
Tarkin's title is in the ANH script, I think. It's about as canon as something can get without actually being on screen.
> > So am I. The difference is in scale. Each K-Mac yard can build a few ISDs. Each Zahn yard > probably has dozens of things on the
> > go at once. But at the height of the British Empire, the Royal Navy managed with four major > shipyards - Belfast, Clydebank,
> > Tyneside and Devonport, if I remember right - and only one (?) was actually navy-run. (very > hazy memory). My main problem is
> > that K-Mac just contradicts Zahn.
>
> Glasgow wasn't in there somewhere? There were major commercial shipyards
> there IIRC
Clydebank was the shipbuilding area of Glasgow.
> (I was born in Edinburgh, myself).
Makes two of us! Where are you now?
> Was Scapa Flow just a
> naval base or did/does it hold repair yards?
Just a base. Just a bloody great bit of water with bloody little else. Rosyth (I presume you know where that is :-) was a Royal Dockyard
like Devonport, but kept being opened and closed, so (unlike Devonport) never built anything big. Counting small ships built at Leith,
Aberdeen etc., Scotland provided about 1/2 the ships in the RN in 1941.
Not sure what this has to do with the topic....
> And I would go with the K-Mac scenario myself - it makes more sense.
> They are not necessarily irreconcilable - Zahn just focuses on the
> biggest, war-effort critical shipyards that are fully functional.
Hmm. Personally, I'll take the Zahn idea (based on the old RN analogy above).
> > Except that SW.com seems to have stirred everything up. This comes from the new (and very > well-researched) archive at
> >
> > http://www.starwars.com/vehicles/star_destroyer/
> >
> > The Imperial Navy is organized into fleets, which are
> > composed of one Imperial-class Star Destroyer accompanied
> > by support and lesser combat ships. Each fleet can operate
> > independently. In practice, Star Destroyers can be combined in
> > Task Forces of three, Sector Squadrons of six, or Regional and
> > Territorial Fleets of 24 - but it is unusual for more than one to
> > occupy the same star system, except for ceremonial purposes.
> > Such concentrations of force are rarely necessary - there are
> > few things which can seriously challenge even one Star
> > Destroyer.
> >
> > "Territorial Fleets" of 24? The phrase "Outer Rim Territories" sounds horribly familiar. This > would suggest 120 SDs in the
> > fleet, far short of Zahn's 25k, and not far beyond KJA's 45 in the Core (shudder) unless there > are actually 200 "Territories" in
> > each Oversector.
>
> I'm actually starting to get aggravated at this. OK, WEG screws up some
> of the details on SD's and the composition of the Imp fleet, and
> Lucasfilm toes the line. But now they can't even stay internally
> consistent! 120 SD's to defend the Empire?! Either the Empire is a lot
> smaller than suggested in the novels and comics, or SD's are a lot more
> powerful. I'm sorry, but 120 SD's cannot hold down an Empire of between
> 1 million (conservative) and 12 million (upper end) star systems.
>
> (I'm sure someone will say this isn't very important, but I am a
> stickler for details...)
I agree with you. I don't know where the SW.com info's coming from, but most of it seems good, and aren't those WEG plans they're using?
I suppose, at a push, one could argue that what is normally called a 'sector' is officially styled either a 'territory' or a 'region',
depending on where one is, and there are 200-odd in the Core Regions or Outer Rim Territories. But this doesn't really work. Unless we
say KJA is right and Zahn is wrong :-)
> > > > Interesting thought. Probably. Remember that one race whose art he didn't understand?.
> > >
> > > Umm, no. Which novel/short story was that in?
> >
> > It's in TLC, I think. A passing remark from Thrawn to Pellaeon.
>
> Hmm. That would be another case of retroactive continuity then. TAB
> hadn't been written then.
> If it is from TLC, that is.
It is....
> > > No problem.
> >
> > Except with the continuity...
>
> Agreed.
>
> (looks at watch) Gah! Now look what you made me do! I'm late for class!
> :)
Ach! Guess who a;most missed the start of a tutorial writing this reply!
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > Except that SW.com seems to have stirred everything up. This comes from the new >(and very well-researched) archive at
> >
> > http://www.starwars.com/vehicles/star_destroyer/
> >
> > The Imperial Navy is organized into fleets, which are
> > composed of one Imperial-class Star Destroyer accompanied
> > by support and lesser combat ships. Each fleet can operate
> > independently. In practice, Star Destroyers can be combined in
> > Task Forces of three, Sector Squadrons of six, or Regional and
> > Territorial Fleets of 24 - but it is unusual for more than one to
> > occupy the same star system, except for ceremonial purposes.
> > Such concentrations of force are rarely necessary - there are
> > few things which can seriously challenge even one Star
> > Destroyer.
>
> I just visited the site for a quick look, and within a couple of
> minutes, guess what I had found?
>
> "The personal flagship of Darth Vader, the Executor, is
> the Empire's first Super-class Star Destroyer. The
> Executor is over eight times the size of an Imperial-class
> Star Destroyer."
>
> Now if I do the math right, that is 12.8km, not the 8km 'myth' that WEG
> perpetuates.
> And yet, it is still short of the movie ship length, which looks around
> 16km or so.
> So now we have *three* SSD lengths. Sigh.
Ach, [expletive deleted]!
I hadn't picked up on that. It's an interesting compromise (8 miles/12km) between the 11 or 12 mile 'accurate' length and
the 8 km WEG length!
> BTW, it looks like the text for the SD was lifted straight from the WEG
> Star Wars Sourcebook.
OK. I think everyone can agree that it's WEG's fault. Again.
Policrat'
Mattemerso
matte...@aol.com (Mattemerso) wrote:
>>Huh? I was under the impression Dark Horse cut it because of time
constraints.
>>DE II and EE suffered simmilar fates. If the story is fantastic, and why
>>wouldn't it be, why would Vetch change his mind and pull it, since it is key
to
>>DE II?
>What happened (and I'll try to avoid the political tension, out of
>respect for both Tom and LFL) is that there were creative differences
>between the two over the rights to any potential video game spinofffs.
>They never saw eye-to-eye, and so Tom decided not to have it published
>as a Star Wars tale. He is still considering having it published in a
>non-SW setting, however.
And because they can't settle an issue over a video game, we lose a great
story. Oh well. Give my right arm to see the story anyway.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
Mattemerso wrote:
>> >> >D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just
>> >>show
>> >> them the
>> >> >films.
>> >>
>> >> The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke
>> losing
>> >> his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger
days)
>> for
>> >> Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
>> >> birthdays. It has more impact.
>>
>> >Fair enough. Personally, it was the Tuskens and Jabba's Palace that sent
>me
>> running
>> >at age four. Speaking of which....
>>
>> Tuskens I get. That scream always bugged me. Jabba's was weird, but not too
>> scary. Except for the rancor in the basement.
>It was the creatures that got me. The fact that everyone was walking >into the
hands
>of these big ugly latex things. Yuk!
I'll give ya that. I mean, the cantina you can handle, but this was like a
carnival freekshow. Not at all pleasent for younger viewers.
>> >> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
>> >> >Iliad at
>> >> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
>> >>reading,
>> >> or most
>> >> >other things, for that matter.]
>> >>
>> >> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
>>
>> >No. 3 :-)
>>
>> What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
>?
Think our signals got crossed. What I gather is you started reading at 3, I did
at 2. Issue solved. I believe.
>> >> and was reading
>> >> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced
his
>> >> life.]
>>
>> >Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste for
>> >eclecticism :-)
>>
>> Never read 'em so I can't say. The people who shaped me most in terms of
>> writing were Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. God, I read those books to tatters for
>> years.
>C.S. Lewis, that's a point. A very good point. Sorry, never read Tolkein
>beyond
>"The Hobbit". But the two of them's favourite pub is about 200yrds NW of >me
right
>now.[snip]
Well, I'll be! How's that for luck? I recommend you check out The Lord of the
Rings. Long, but really good.
Not sure if I agree with that. I always felt ROTJ ended very nicely, very
poinently with Vader's cremation and the rejoining of his spirti with Yoda and
his old friend Obi-Wan. That was perfect for me.
Well, I'll get my very first read of PoT in about a week or so, along with
everything between PoT and SoTP. June 2 is my birthday so I get mucho SW. I
dunno about KJA. I still stand by the belief that his stories are actually
pretty good, if not always correct. K-Mac, since I have not read, I cannot say.
Stackpole is much better than LFL gives him credit, Allston is good too, enough
that I cannot wait for Iron Fist, the next X-Wing novella. Zahn? Well, he
started this, so I think we owe the most to him. That being said, what about
some of the other writers like Tyers, Wolverton and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
Hunter trilogy? I liked Truce at Bakura and CoPL had to grow on me, but it was
OK.
Comments?
>Thoughts?
Yes, I have thoughts frequently... oh, you mean on your statement! You are
exactly right. When I first picked up Jedi Search, I was like "WHat on earth
happened?" I had not read DE or any other novels besides the Zahn trilogy. KJA
is good at writing kids stuff (YJK) or some comics (gotta admit, the Ulic
Qel-Droma saga is one of my fav. SW stories), but if we're talking the big pic,
we need Stackpole and Zahn.
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded
>>back
>> to
>> >> that
>> >> > strange place called "sanity")
>> >>
>> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor
>>acting
>> and
>> >> flimsy stories.)
>>
>> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
>>
>> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point in our
>> lives.
>Was I?
Were you? You tell me!
May. The. Force. Be. With. You. (Best Shatner imitation, sorry!)
Matt
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
> Mattemerso wrote:
>
> >> >> >D'you really want KJA as a formative influence on your kids? :-) Just
> >> >>show
> >> >> them the
> >> >> >films.
> >> >>
> >> >> The original for sure. Not sure how they would handle the Wampa or Luke
> >> losing
> >> >> his hand (both of which scared the beezeusus out of me im my younger
> days)
> >> for
> >> >> Empire. Jedi you'll want to save until just before their double diget
> >> >> birthdays. It has more impact.
> >>
> >> >Fair enough. Personally, it was the Tuskens and Jabba's Palace that sent
> >me
> >> running
> >> >at age four. Speaking of which....
> >>
> >> Tuskens I get. That scream always bugged me. Jabba's was weird, but not too
> >> scary. Except for the rancor in the basement.
>
> >It was the creatures that got me. The fact that everyone was walking >into the
> hands
> >of these big ugly latex things. Yuk!
>
> I'll give ya that. I mean, the cantina you can handle, but this was like a
> carnival freekshow. Not at all pleasent for younger viewers.
True. Another thing that bothered me (just remembered now) is the fact that they
re-used the Death Star as a plot device. A friend told me (having seen it first)
and I didn't believe him until I saw it too. How many 4-yr-olds would this bother?
:-)
> >> >> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read the
> >> >> >Iliad at
> >> >> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
> >> >>reading,
> >> >> or most
> >> >> >other things, for that matter.]
> >> >>
> >> >> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
> >>
> >> >No. 3 :-)
> >>
> >> What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
>
> >?
>
> Think our signals got crossed. What I gather is you started reading at 3, I did
> at 2. Issue solved. I believe.
Okay. Well done! Ya beat me!
> >> >> and was reading
> >> >> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has influenced
> his
> >> >> life.]
> >>
> >> >Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste for
> >> >eclecticism :-)
> >>
> >> Never read 'em so I can't say. The people who shaped me most in terms of
> >> writing were Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. God, I read those books to tatters for
> >> years.
>
> >C.S. Lewis, that's a point. A very good point. Sorry, never read Tolkein
> >beyond
> >"The Hobbit". But the two of them's favourite pub is about 200yrds NW of >me
> right
> >now.[snip]
>
> Well, I'll be! How's that for luck? I recommend you check out The Lord of the
> Rings. Long, but really good.
I'll look it up. They probably have most of it stuck on the wall in the Lamb and
Flag, but it's gone down a long way since the good old days of CS and JRR.
Hmmm. I s'pose. Okay, I admit. Lucas and his folks are just grandstanding at the
end of the SW:SE - though maybe he'd planned the airbus for the end of SW IX to
match the one that'll supposedly start of Ep.I?
Okay. I recomend SotP 100%. Same with I, Jedi. PoT I went into with very high
hopes, but was v. disappointed. One great villan, but under-used and surrounded by
drab ones, and the main plot 'surprises' were obvious from their introduction, but
Luke wanders about like Jerec with a blindfold most of the time.
> June 2 is my birthday so I get mucho SW.
Happy birthday!
> I dunno about KJA. I still stand by the belief that his stories are actually
> pretty good, if not always correct.
I agree in a funny sort of way. Lemeisk is proof that KJA can actually write decent
characters. I always feel KJA and Hambly have quite good ideas that are let down by
a lot of dross and some dumb characters. Zahn has described the Callie trilogy as
'thrown together', and perhaps DS and PoT were re-written at some point. If the
decent villan from PoT was the main villan in Darksaber (and nasty things happened
to Callista, of course :-) it would have been a cracking bit of SW. But good ideas
badly done, unlike modest ones well done, don't make a good read.
> K-Mac, since I have not read, I cannot say.
Read it. Or at least, read Tyrant's Test. The main problems with K-Mac, if they are
problems, is that he (by his own admission) ignores the finer points of continuity,
and gives a lot of space to his own characters (v. well done, but including a
Klingon :-) rather than the movie ones. Han, um, gets beaten up. Luke, ah, gets
lied to and gets his end away. Lando, er, floats round in an automated alien ship
that's being chased by the Core Warlords. Admiral Drayson is, um, head of an
Intelligence Service. Only Leia, Lobot and Chewie really DO anything! If you like
Tom Clancy-style technothrillers, it's a must. Otherwise, you might hate it.
> Stackpole is much better than LFL gives him credit, Allston is good too, enough
> that I cannot wait for Iron Fist, the next X-Wing novella. Zahn? Well, he
> started this, so I think we owe the most to him.
IMHO, Zahn, Stackpole and Allston get the ballance right in a way that Hambly and
KJA don't. Good ideas are no good unless they really work. What's this about LFL
not liking Stackpole? How wrong can they be?
> That being said, what about
> some of the other writers like Tyers
Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it. A great
book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in uniforms.
> Wolverton
I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether the Iron
Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, but I liked
the ref to the Mon Remonda.
> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
> Hunter trilogy?
I haven't read it yet :-)
Don't forget Allston. I can never decide whether I like the whole TotJ thing or
not: all the mysticism Veitch and KJA put in really doesn't jibe with me, I think.
I preferred the Zahn view of the Force.
> >> >[snip]
> >>
> >> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded
> >>back
> >> to
> >> >> that
> >> >> > strange place called "sanity")
> >> >>
> >> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor
> >>acting
> >> and
> >> >> flimsy stories.)
> >>
> >> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
> >>
> >> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point in our
> >> lives.
>
> >Was I?
>
> Were you? You tell me!
>
> May. The. Force. Be. With. You. (Best Shatner imitation, sorry!)
Live long and prosper... always! (Ben Spockenobi)
Policrat'
Mattemerso
Mattemerso wrote:
Yeah, I remember seeing it in theaters at the tender age of six or so and
thinking "Hey, this didn't work before, why are they trying it again? FYI, of
all the SW films, even with the SE, the only one I never saw in theaters was
ESB. Weird.
>> >> >> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he read
the
>> >> >> >Iliad at
>> >> >> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
>> >> >>reading,
>> >> >> or most
>> >> >> >other things, for that matter.]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
>> >>
>> >> >No. 3 :-)
>> >>
>> >> What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
>>
>> >?
>>
>> Think our signals got crossed. What I gather is you started reading at 3, I
did
>> at 2. Issue solved. I believe.
>Okay. Well done! Ya beat me!
Cannot tell you how much it freaked my mom out to come into my bedroom late one
night and find me reading Richard Scarry into a tape recorder. (Yeah, I do have
a long memory.)
>> >> >> and was reading
>> >> >> Tolkin's The Lord of the Rings by age 7. Wonders how that has
influenced
>> his
>> >> >> life.]
>> >>
>> >> >Nope. Let's see. Patrick O'Brian and Ian Fleming. It's given me a taste
for
>> >> >eclecticism :-)
>> >>
>> >> Never read 'em so I can't say. The people who shaped me most in terms of
>> >> writing were Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. God, I read those books to tatters
for
>> >> years.
>>
>> >C.S. Lewis, that's a point. A very good point. Sorry, never read Tolkein
>> >beyond
>> >"The Hobbit". But the two of them's favourite pub is about 200yrds NW of
>me
>> right
>> >now.[snip]
>>
>> Well, I'll be! How's that for luck? I recommend you check out The Lord of
the
>> Rings. Long, but really good.
>I'll look it up. They probably have most of it stuck on the wall in the >Lamb
and
>Flag, but it's gone down a long way since the good old days of CS and JRR.
So has literature if ya think about it, but let's not get TOO off topic.
::shrugs:: Also, if Lucas tended to Death Star the novels, why include the
Swoop and Outrider from SOTE in SW? Also, why use the name Cours. at all? All
are novel creations.
SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers, plus
cheeper. PoT I am not expected much, since I was monumentally frustrated by
CoTJ. I just... I thought it was just the story until I started reading
Habley's shorts in the Tales collection. She just does boring stories. To me
anyway.
>> June 2 is my birthday so I get mucho SW.
>Happy birthday!
Wait for it... wait for it... (secretly hoping a few people recongnize it.
Knowing I'm not GL, but it is nice to be the center of the Milkey Way for 24
hours.)
>> I dunno about KJA. I still stand by the belief that his stories are actually
>> pretty good, if not always correct.
>I agree in a funny sort of way. Lemeisk is proof that KJA can actually >write
decent
>characters. I always feel KJA and Hambly have quite good ideas that are >let
down by
>a lot of dross and some dumb characters. Zahn has described the Callie
>trilogy as
>'thrown together', and perhaps DS and PoT were re-written at some point. >If
the
>decent villan from PoT was the main villan in Darksaber (and nasty >things
happened
>to Callista, of course :-) it would have been a cracking bit of SW. But >good
ideas
>badly done, unlike modest ones well done, don't make a good read.
Well, for me, it felt like KJA was trying to salvage something from the mess of
the Callista trilogy. Say what you will about KJA (I have since learned he's
hardly that great since he's not willing to cooperate with the others) but I
lay the blame for this one at the feet of Hambly. I'm sorry, but she's got to
be the poorest of the writers. She just takes too damn long to get to the point
and the point is buried under tons of muck! Ugh! Her books are like Dagobah!
>> K-Mac, since I have not read, I cannot say.
>Read it. Or at least, read Tyrant's Test. The main problems with K-Mac, if
>they are
>problems, is that he (by his own admission) ignores the finer points of
>continuity,
>and gives a lot of space to his own characters (v. well done, but including >a
>Klingon :-) rather than the movie ones. Han, um, gets beaten up. Luke, ah,
>gets
>lied to and gets his end away. Lando, er, floats round in an automated >alien
ship
>that's being chased by the Core Warlords. Admiral Drayson is, um, head of >an
>Intelligence Service. Only Leia, Lobot and Chewie really DO anything! If >you
like
>Tom Clancy-style technothrillers, it's a must. Otherwise, you might hate >it.
::Shrugs:: Not a big Clancy reader. However, my wishlist for the birthday is
PoT, Crystal Star, Black Fleet Saga, TNR, and the Corillian Trillogy, plus The
Mandalorian Armor. That should keep me busy for a while.
>> Stackpole is much better than LFL gives him credit, Allston is good too,
enough
>> that I cannot wait for Iron Fist, the next X-Wing novella. Zahn? Well, he
>> started this, so I think we owe the most to him.
>IMHO, Zahn, Stackpole and Allston get the ballance right in a way that >Hambly
and
>KJA don't. Good ideas are no good unless they really work. What's this >about
LFL
>not liking Stackpole? How wrong can they be?
I never said LFL didn't like him, I just said I don't think he gets enough
credit! Oh and carve my heart out with a spoon, I almost forgot about anoth
fav: A.C. Crispen! Oh, the Han Solo Trilogy absolutly was outstanding! The best
SW series I've read in many moons. LFL should lock her in a room somewhere and
force her to write more stuff like this!
>> That being said, what about
>> some of the other writers like Tyers
>Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it. >A
great
>book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in
>uniforms.
What was wrong with Gaeriel? I must have missed something. I loved Thanas and
was surprised not to see him more in SW. I enjoyed the book since it worked
well as a follow up to Jedi. Now, if someone could explain what happened
between Truce and the X-Wing comics...
>> Wolverton
>I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether >the
Iron
>Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, >but I
liked
>the ref to the Mon Remonda.
Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
like "why is sex (which I considered a SW taboo up until this book) even being
brought up here?"
>> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>> Hunter trilogy?
>I haven't read it yet :-)
Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
::shrugs:: Dunno. Oh, and am I the only one who noted only KJA has used the
TOTJ series in his books? I have yet to see anything connected to that stuff in
a Zahn or a Stackpole novel. (Think Crispen used it in Han Solo, but am not
sure.)
>> >> >[snip]
>> >>
>> >> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him hounded
>> >>back
>> >> to
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> > strange place called "sanity")
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor
>> >>acting
>> >> and
>> >> >> flimsy stories.)
>> >>
>> >> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
>> >>
>> >> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point in
our
>> >> lives.
>>
>> >Was I?
>>
>> Were you? You tell me!
>>
>> May. The. Force. Be. With. You. (Best Shatner imitation, sorry!)
>Live long and prosper... always! (Ben Spockenobi)
Star Trek is the disease, the Force is the cure. That's my call.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
>Exactly how I felt when Tom told me what had happened. It's a shame,
>too, because Dark Empire II becomes a much stronger story after you've
>read Lightsider and understand why some of the things in it happened.
>Hopefully, when my article comes out in Galaxy Collector #4 (in
>something like six months, unfortunately), you'll be able to piece
>together enough of the storyline to fill in the gaps.
Rich, maybe you don't hear it enough on this board, but thanks!
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
[snip]
>> >True. Another thing that bothered me (just remembered now) is the fact
>that
>> they
>> >re-used the Death Star as a plot device. A friend told me (having seen it
>> >first)
>> >and I didn't believe him until I saw it too. How many 4-yr-olds would
>>this
>> bother?
>> >:-)
>>
>> Yeah, I remember seeing it in theaters at the tender age of six or so and
>> thinking "Hey, this didn't work before, why are they trying it again? FYI,
of
>> all the SW films, even with the SE, the only one I never saw in theaters was
>> ESB. Weird.
>Not particularly. Makes 2 of us. Or is that 'weirder'?
Wierd the common triats people share.
>> >> >> >> >[Policraticus would like to make it known that the fact that he
read
>> the
>> >> >> >> >Iliad at
>> >> >> >> >age six has nothing to do with his reactionary views on children's
>> >> >> >>reading,
>> >> >> >> or most
>> >> >> >> >other things, for that matter.]
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> [Matt wants it known he started reading at the age of 2
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >No. 3 :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What, were you sneaking into my house? :-)
>> >>
>> >> >?
>> >>
>> >> Think our signals got crossed. What I gather is you started reading at 3,
I
>> did
>> >> at 2. Issue solved. I believe.
>>
>> >Okay. Well done! Ya beat me!
>>
>> Cannot tell you how much it freaked my mom out to come into my bedroom late
one
>> night and find me reading Richard Scarry into a tape recorder. (Yeah, I do
have
>> a long memory.)
>You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
figured it out.
>Okay. I don't know why I said 'Lamb and Flag', tho. It's the 'Eagle and
>Child'
>across the road. Now that IS off-topic. End of topic.
Very well. Back to SW!
>IIRC, Lucas wasn't happy with the name, but was 'persuaded'. And as to >SOTE,
>no-one's ever said what the exact GL/LFL contribution was.
>[snip]
::shrugs:: Well, the fact that GL included them at all is a positive. But I
don't think he likes the novels or comics. He's like a kid who made a great
toy, but won't let anyone else play with it.
>> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers, plus
>> cheeper.
>OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
>> PoT I am not expected much, since I was monumentally frustrated by
>> CoTJ. I just... I thought it was just the story until I started reading
>> Habley's shorts in the Tales collection. She just does boring stories. To me
>> anyway.
Boring... That's the word I was looking for!
Wow! Sometimes the best words are the simplest!
>> >> June 2 is my birthday so I get mucho SW.
>>
>> >Happy birthday!
>>
>> Wait for it... wait for it... (secretly hoping a few people recongnize it.
>> Knowing I'm not GL, but it is nice to be the center of the Milkey Way for 24
>> hours.)
>Consider it an advanced message.
Message accepted.
>> >> I dunno about KJA. I still stand by the belief that his stories are
actually
>> >> pretty good, if not always correct.
>>
>> >I agree in a funny sort of way. Lemeisk is proof that KJA can actually
>>write
>> decent
>> >characters. I always feel KJA and Hambly have quite good ideas that are
>let
>> down by
>> >a lot of dross and some dumb characters. Zahn has described the Callie
>> >trilogy as
>> >'thrown together', and perhaps DS and PoT were re-written at some point.
>If
>> the
>> >decent villan from PoT was the main villan in Darksaber (and nasty >>things
>> happened
>> >to Callista, of course :-) it would have been a cracking bit of SW. But
>>good
>> ideas
>> >badly done, unlike modest ones well done, don't make a good read.
>>
>> Well, for me, it felt like KJA was trying to salvage something from the mess
of
>> the Callista trilogy.
>Okay. Problem was, DS goes rapidly downhill in the middle. This massive >Imp
fleet
>shows up, so he has to bring in Jedi ex machina to get rid of it.
A really needless sacrifice, two needless deaths... just very strange how it's
all done. I wonder why KJA would butcher this book so tremendously. It COULD
have been better, but it just sank.
>> Say what you will about KJA (I have since learned he's
>> hardly that great since he's not willing to cooperate with the others) but I
>> lay the blame for this one at the feet of Hambly. I'm sorry, but she's got
to
>> be the poorest of the writers. She just takes too damn long to get to the
point
>> and the point is buried under tons of muck! Ugh! Her books are like Dagobah!
>Hmmm. I don't know. OK on characters, bad on villans and plot.
I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who they
are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in CoTJ
anyway, the Gammorian cow?
>> >> K-Mac, since I have not read, I cannot say.
>>
>> >Read it. Or at least, read Tyrant's Test. The main problems with K-Mac, if
>> >they are
>> >problems, is that he (by his own admission) ignores the finer points of
>> >continuity,
>> >and gives a lot of space to his own characters (v. well done, but including
>a
>> >Klingon :-) rather than the movie ones. Han, um, gets beaten up. Luke, ah,
>> >gets
>> >lied to and gets his end away. Lando, er, floats round in an automated
>>alien
>> ship
>> >that's being chased by the Core Warlords. Admiral Drayson is, um, head of
>an
>> >Intelligence Service. Only Leia, Lobot and Chewie really DO anything! If
>>you
>> like
>> >Tom Clancy-style technothrillers, it's a must. Otherwise, you might hate
>it.
>>
>> ::Shrugs:: Not a big Clancy reader. However, my wishlist for the birthday is
>> PoT, Crystal Star, Black Fleet Saga, TNR, and the Corillian Trillogy, plus
The
>> Mandalorian Armor. That should keep me busy for a while.
>OK. Enjoy. At least some of that batch should be OK
Seems only PoT and Crystal Star seem poor. The rest look really good. Except
for Armor. That one I'm hoping...
>> >> Stackpole is much better than LFL gives him credit, Allston is good too,
>> enough
>> >> that I cannot wait for Iron Fist, the next X-Wing novella. Zahn? Well, he
>> >> started this, so I think we owe the most to him.
>>
>> >IMHO, Zahn, Stackpole and Allston get the ballance right in a way that
>>Hambly
>> and
>> >KJA don't. Good ideas are no good unless they really work. What's this
>>about
>> LFL
>> >not liking Stackpole? How wrong can they be?
>>
>> I never said LFL didn't like him, I just said I don't think he gets enough
>> credit! Oh and carve my heart out with a spoon, I almost forgot about anoth
>> fav: A.C. Crispen! Oh, the Han Solo Trilogy absolutly was outstanding! The
best
>> SW series I've read in many moons. LFL should lock her in a room somewhere
and
>> force her to write more stuff like this!
>Hear, Hear. You listening, Ann? Start talking to Del Rey right away!
Her, Stackpole, Zhan and Allston should all sign up pronto!
>> >> That being said, what about
>> >> some of the other writers like Tyers
>>
>> >Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it.
>A
>> great
>> >book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in
>> >uniforms.
>>
>> What was wrong with Gaeriel? I must have missed something. I loved Thanas
and
>> was surprised not to see him more in SW. I enjoyed the book since it worked
>> well as a follow up to Jedi. Now, if someone could explain what happened
>> between Truce and the X-Wing comics...
>I just really found her annoying! Personal opinion.
To each his or her own. I thought either her or Mara were the best of possible
choices for Luke.
>> >> Wolverton
>>
>> >I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether
>>the
>> Iron
>> >Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious,
>>but I
>> liked
>> >the ref to the Mon Remonda.
>>
>> Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
>> CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
>> like "why is sex (which I considered a SW taboo up until this book) even
being
>> brought up here?"
>Nope, it was always an SSD. Just got destroyed and reappeared. Why, I >don't
know.
When was it destroyed originally? That and I believe Wolverton called it a SD.
Then again, I last read it in Dec. so...
>> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>> >> Hunter trilogy?
>>
>> >I haven't read it yet :-)
>>
>> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
>Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the world:->)
I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d off if
they do!
>Read 'I, Jedi'. Okay, he uses JA3 as his main source, but it's still TotJ
>stuff.
OK, in May 1999, I'll finally read it. PB.
>> >> >> >[snip]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him
hounded
>> >> >>back
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> > strange place called "sanity")
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor
>> >> >>acting
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> flimsy stories.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point
in
>> our
>> >> >> lives.
>> >>
>> >> >Was I?
>> >>
>> >> Were you? You tell me!
>> >>
>> >> May. The. Force. Be. With. You. (Best Shatner imitation, sorry!)
>>
>> >Live long and prosper... always! (Ben Spockenobi)
>>
>> Star Trek is the disease, the Force is the cure. That's my call.
>Nicely put!
[Matt now considers himself offically a member of RASSM]
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
>Yes. SOTE:E seems a bit screwy in terms of the timeline as well. The
>text suggests that is immediately after RotJ, but TAB would clash with
>it chronoligically. So it must be about two weeks or so post-Endor.
Last timeline I saw put it before X-Wing, but after ROTJ. With Truce coming up
in graphic novel form next year, we'll get out answer. Maybe Stackpole would be
nice enough to do a short X-Wing story that links the two when that's complete.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Bobby Cox
On Sat, 16 May 1998 10:16:14 +0100, policraticus
<policr...@hotmail.com> jumped up and announced to the general
posting public:
<mass nukage>
>> Wha??? If this is true, Hambly just didn't do her homework! That being said, I
>> guess I need to reread CotJ. (shudder)
>
>[Profound sympathy. Anyone notice that KJA gets all the flak for the cheesy
>superweapons, but Hambly's are infinitely less convincing? Sure, developed
>characters, but underdeveloped everything else.]
I wouldn't classify the 'Eye' as a superweapon, more like a huge
collection of conventional weapons. Would you call an Executor-class
SSD a superweapon? After all, if it exerts a little effort, one
Executor-class can level a largish chunk of a planet.
>> > Moving on...
>> >
>> >> <<(does that film really have to be canon? Why couldn't Lucas have just
>> madehe
>> >> main problem. And btw, doesn't
>> >> the Special Edition show Coruscant rejecting the Empire IMMEDIATELY after
>> >> Endor?? The gist seems to be, once
>> >> the Emperor, Vader and the DSII are gone, everyone (across the Galaxy) stops
>> >> being scared and goes Rebel. Kinda
>> >> sends a proton torpedo up the entire novel continuity.)
>> >>
>> >> Sorry. Got a bit carried away....>>
>> >>
>> >> OK, ya kinda got me with this one. Maybe it was just a minor uprising we saw
>> on
>> >> Coruscant and the Empire squashed it back a few days later, I dunno.
>> >>
>> >> (Kinda hate to see Lucas squash 10 years of work by the authors of the books
>> >> and comics)
>>
>> <<A message regarding the prequels?>>
>>
>> Well, how much of the novels can Lucas void with the Prequels? Or the TOTJ
>> comics since they took place beforehand? I doubt much. Lucas did after all
>> include the swoops, the Outrider and the planet Bob in the SE. Then again, I
>> hope he doesn't.
>
>The planet Bob? Trouble is, there's so much out there that it'll be hard to leave
>it all intact.
Just the major stuff will keep me happy. Stuff like the Jedi Academy
(good idea, less-than-ideal execution), the Solo kids, Thrawn (eagerly
awaiting Vision of the Future, I am...), etc. There's some stuff that
I wouldn't mind seeing dumped... 'The Crystal Star' would be my first
choice... God, that was a dire novel. I think I wasted my money with
that one.
>> >> Moving on...
>> >>
>> >> <<hah! :-) Of course, there might be two Rougue Squadrons, two Wedge
>> Antilles
>> >> (well, neither of them look like
>> >> Denis Lawson anyway), two Lusankyas, hey, two Galaxies a long time ago and
>> far
>> >> far away.>>
>> >>
>> >> Uh guys? Before we all start throwing stones, let's let them finish the
>> X-Wing
>> >> series (comics and novels). I'm sure there is an explanation to your
>> theories
>> >> there.
>> >>
>> >> Want mine? Maybe it was WRAITH Squadron disgusied as the Rouges. They'd done
>> >> that before.
>>
>> <<Good idea, but... nah. cf last frame of CE #4>>.
>> Wraith did use the call signs for the Rouges during their assults, did they
>> not? Besides, you would know the Rouges from the comics and the novels.
>> Something isn't jiveing here.
<minor spoiler for 'In the Empire's Service' and 'The Making of Baron
Fel'>
Such as the inclusion of Soontir Fel in Wraith Squadron? I know for a
fact that he was captured at Brentaal IV, and defected to the Alliance
in return for help in finding his wife (I own the comics :). Did
Allston read the comics? You'd think that Mike'd tell him about it.
Oh, well, it's a minor quibble anyway...
>Yes, but they were using squadron comm. And I don't think he was being ironic.
>Anyway, they're described in the blurbs as "the all-new Rogue Squadron", and it
>would make more sense to have the Wraiths in X-wings.
I thought it was to fool the Imps (well, Zsinj's troops, anyway), that
they were Rogue Squadron. Wedge even asked Kell Tainer to call him
'Tycho'.
>> <<> All just my opinion...
>>
>> Fair 'nuf. a CPoV. That's the way the world is.
>>
>> Hmmm... the Force is with me. But I am not a Jedi yet.
>
>mtfbwy, and the ronto you rode in on,
All opinions stated are mine, as no-one else will admit to having
them... :)
Bobby Cox
Representative of the Tirax System
"I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
"I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee."
"I can arrange that. You could use a good kiss!"
Note: Reply-to address mangled to get rid of spamming mail-bots
I think you can figure out what to get rid of...
policraticus
[snip]
> > Thoughts?(Concentrating, concentrating, BING. Got one.)
> KJA seems to put in lots of references in to 'anchor' his work. When
> Stackpole and company drop some history or an anecdote in, it seems
> natural (except multiple references to the Katana fleet), while KJA's
> seem to stick out like a sore thumb. They seem far more...forced. (In
> JA3, he had a reference to just about *every* other SW title out at the
> time).
I think it's because KJA feels the need to EXPLAIN everything. Stackpole and Zahn just
MENTION it. What exactly were the Alderaanian Expeditions? What exactly is a "Sith
lanvarock"? And just what does a "come-up flector" do?
> I tend to look at KJA's work as being an example of great ideas let down
> by poor execution.
I can never decide whether KJA's novels are over-worked or under-worked. They just never
seem quite... finished. It's as if he either can't work out how to solve the situations
he sets up (unlike Zahn, for instance, who is the most ingenious SW plotter of the lot)
or he's rewritten them to death.
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > Equally, when there is no chain of command, Pellaeon wouldn't take it upon himself to promote > himself. He might assume the (temporary)
> > rank of Commodore, but then he'd resign it when Thrawn turned up.
>
> This is what I assumed. I imagine that the Imperial Navy is rife with
> politics, and without a clear system of heirarchy Post-Endor, there very
> well could have been a bloodbath.
Certainly would explain some things, but there are also good officers (like Pellaeon).
> > I'm guessing that it was an Admiral or Commodore commanding Chimaera
> > who was killed at Endor, with Pellaeon (like Piet before Ozzel was killed) holding the rank of > Captain but acting as first officer.
>
> Again, I assume so - I think Pellaeon recalls in HTTE that he took
> command after the CO was killed, but doesn't specify name or rank.
Calls him 'Chimaera's captain' (small c), but in Commodores and Admirals can certainly command single ships in SW.
> > > I assume he was serving under Isard,
> > > as she was the one in control of the bulk of the Empire until Corusant
> > > fell. Why didn't she promote him?
> >
> > No! The very fact Pellaeon was never promoted, yet retained command of the most important fleet > units, implies that there was no-one to
> > promote him - he was on his own. Also, the fact that the Ubiqutorate accepted Pellaeon and Thrawn > (though Isard had removed them in her
> > Empire in her putsch to take over Imperial Intelligence and then Coruscant) shows that we're > dealing with two rival Empires.
>
> I'm skeptical as to no-one being able to promote him. ALL the senior
> flag officers cpapble of raising Pellaeon were killed at Endor?
The fact is, no-one did promote him. Pellaeon was the senior surviving officer of the most important Imperial Fleet. If there had been any
semblance of authority in the Empire, that fleet would have had to recieve a flag officer.
> The RS novels mention the Navy is disgruntled at being led by Imp
> Intelligence - perhaps although Isard ruled the Empire, the Navy
> insisted on handling its own affairs.
That's not the issue. In RS, Isard has wiped out the Ubiqutorate (I.I. high command) to assume sole control of the Empire, but Thrawn still has
an Ubiqutorate working for him. Implies a schism between Coruscant Empire (Isard kills Ubiqutorate, takes power) and Pellaeon/Thrawn Empire
(Ubiqutorate survives - as best-organised part of Imperial power structure according to WEG).
> Alternatively, Pellaeon and co were allied to Coruscant, and lent Isard
> support enough for the Empire to belargely regarded as a singular unit.
>
> If Pellaeon and Isard ruled two different Empires, the novels certainly
> don't state it. There are two opponent groupings for the NR at that
> point - the Empire and the warlords. And if Pellaeon is in control of
> the bulk of the Imp fleet, then he could have moved on Isard quite
> easily - I imagine there would be a lot of pressure on him from other
> officers to eject the 'usurper'.
I don't think either of them can afford to accept the fact that they're in opposition. Pellaeon might not recognize Isard's political authority,
but both Pellaeon and Isard essentially rule by projection of force. Isard sits on Coruscant and sends out SDs to try and hold the Core together,
Pellaeon roams the Mid Rim with his battlefleet. I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to argue with either.
> > > Seriously, though, the last may have happened, if not in such a
> > > ridiculous way. She may have pulled a Daala on them. Invited them all to
> > > talks on the future of the Empire, and killed at least most of them.
> > > Just a thought.
> > >
> > > Of course, they are Grand Admirals, and just may have worked out that
> > > Isard was a psychotic bitch. :)
> >
> > Doesn't Han say "I thought WE had taken care of them all" in DFR? Implies that between Endor and > HttE, the NR had beaten the other GAs.
> > Of course, the Empire itself took out Zarin (sp?) in "TIE fighter" (I'm willing to accept that as > canon because it explains why everyone
> > knows there should be 12 GAs, but no-one knows about the 12th; Thrawn replaced Zarin without any > official anouncement) but that still
> > leaves 11!
>
> I thought it was Mon Mothma who stated something along the lines of "I
> thought all the Grand Admiral's were accounted for?", or perhaps, "I
> thought we..." etc.
It;s Luke, at the end of HttE (p.334):
A cold chill ran up Luke's back. "I thought we'd accounted for all the Grand Admirals."
[Han] "Me too. We must have missed one."
> That leaves room to maneouvre. It simply means that the NR kept track of
> the movements of the GA's and thought they were all dead.
s'pose. But that still leaves eleven of the Empire's top officers MIA!
> The TIE Fighter game, AFAIK, has Thrawn being promoted to GA by the
> Emperor away from Coruscant, and DFR has him being promoted officially
> at the secret ceremony at the Imperial Palace.
>
> I think the spelling is Zaarin. I would like to see a TIE Fighter comic
> or novel, perhaps a series. They could either adapt the game or come up
> with a new story.
Would be good. Stackpole has said Baron Fel's the only Imp he's interested in writing, but I'm sure there's someone out there who'd be happy to
do the work! Are you listening, Dark Horse?
> > > Have you read SOTE:E yet? It implies that *weeks* after the Battle of
> > > Endor most of the Empire has surrendered. WEEKS! Lord help us. I mean,
> > > it's not even as if they had an excuse like the first few X-wing comics
> > > had - that the concept for Post-Endor Empire had not yet been really
> > > established. SOTE:E has the weight of material of masses of novels and
> > > comics giving them a rough guide, but they still got it wrong.
> >
> > That's the problem. I can, just about, accept a bit of chaos before Pellaeon and/or Isard provide > a rallying-point, but not utter
> > surrender.
>
> Yes. SOTE:E seems a bit screwy in terms of the timeline as well. The
> text suggests that is immediately after RotJ, but TAB would clash with
> it chronoligically. So it must be about two weeks or so post-Endor.
I think it's just a mess!
> > There's a brief mention of the Diamala having Nebula-class SDs and Endurance-class carriers > (p.330). I think they're basically confined
> > to the 5 main fleets and the member races' own defence forces. Out on the Rim, Dreadnaughts and > Assault Frigates are probably still the
> > main fleet presence - they're the most powerful ships the NR has apart from SDs, and it doesn't > seem to have many of those.
>
> I must have missed that reference. You're right - they seem to have
> organised the NR military into two broad categories. The first group is
> modeled along the Imperial Sector fleet defence, the second group are
> five (or seven, I can't remember) large roving battlegroups, similiar to
> the US Navy Carrier Groups.
Make that 3 categories:
(1) Firstly, there's the Fleets, the large battlegroups - mostly new, heavy ships. Since the First Fleet (Ackbar's) is also the Home Fleet, it's
fair to assume they have territorial responsibilities. I think the Fifth Fleet was actually created specially for the Black Fleet Crisis (the
other 4 were tied down). Each fleet is made up of 2 or more task forces.
(2) Then there are the detached squadrons, like Bel Iblis' force (Peregrine, two escort frigates, and a few fighter squadrons, including the
Rogues), convoy escorts, etc.
(3) Then there are local defense fleets, which seem to be provided by the member worlds by the time of SotP. Up to BFC, the policy was to
integrate them - like General A'baht's Dornean Military - but by SotP, the Calamari and the Diamala (for instance) have modern battlefleets of
their own, with local defense responsibilities, but which can be used to project their power. Other, less important races, have old ships.
> > Terradoc was building masses of VSDs to gain a tactical advantage. If you look at DE, there are > quite a few VSDs, but they're smaller
> > than the VSD-I and VSD-II, and don't have the 'Victory-V' fins or hangar-bays. They seem to be > designed for speed and turbolaser
> > firepower, and probably cost a fraction of what an ISD does. In a straight fight, 3 or 4 VSDs > modified to blast capital ships - no ion
> > cannon, no TIEs - can overwhelm an ISD. This is what KJA has Terradoc use them for, but (this > being a good idea) he seems to have got the
> > idea from Veitch/Kennedy's "Dark Empire" tactical philosophy (the Dark Empire also has a lot of > what look like dedicated carriers,
> > presumably command ships that hang back and provide fighter support while the VSDs, and similarly > redesigned ISDs and Avenger-class SSDs
> > roundhouse with the enemy). Harrsk's flagship Shockwave, incedentally, seems to be designed along > the same lines, and may be
> > Avenger-class.
>
> Of course, all of that 'new-Victory' models are simply retroactive
> continuity - I doubt Cam Kennedy was trying to nail down his SD
> illustrations so accuratetely. They looked close enough, so that
> sufficed. Later, it needed to be placed within the continuity and the
> differences explained.
I think Kennedy had a fair idea of what he wanted. After all, he designed the E-wing, Howlrunner and A-9 Vigilance, not to mention the Eclipse,
and the Avenger-class SSD that appears several times in DE, and the Star Hauler. The most common SD in DE is a scaled-down ISD (which I call the
Imperial-III) which appears often enough that it seems probable that there's a design behind it.
The Victory-III is about the ONLY 'new' ship to appear regularly in DE that doesn't have clear evidence of 'class' design, and the presence
of these ships in Darksaber (built from new) suggests thay Kennedy and KJA had a little chat. I'm not counting the massive carriers at Byss,
which seem to be one-offs (though at least two of them do share the same design).
> Thet did seem to use 'swarm' tactics in Darksabre, though I didn't like
> it much - they are still big ships, and KJA didn't give them sufficient
> 'weight'. They sounded more like fighter squadrons than heavy cruisers.
I think the VSD tactics in Darksaber make a lot of sense. Basically, it's Blitzkreig.
> Wasn't 'Shockwave' described as being larger than the other ISD's in
> orbit? Some new design, I suppose.
Either Shockwave was an Avenger-class SSD, or possibly Harrsk was producing mostly the scaled-down ISD-IIIs of DE.
> > Disappointed? Frustrated ambitions? As one of a handful of people ruling an Empire that (after > EE) still comprises 1/2 the Galaxy?
> > Methinks not!
>
> Ah, I see. I didn't actually consider them ruling the Rim territories,
> more just the Deep Core, and that only tenuosly.
After EE, even with Byss destroyed, the Empire's still in the most powerful position since Endor.
> > > There even seems to be some confusion over the label of Moff - other
> > > books/comics have placed Moff's as planetary governors - the Moff from
> > > the first RS comic series springs to mind.
> >
> > I'd imagine that important worlds have their own Moff. (Presumably you mean Tavira's lover on > Eiattu 4, and don't forget the Moff of
> > Elshandruu Pica - Bacta War p.243 - which seems to be a fairly well-known world, mentioned > casually in conversation). Very minor worlds
> > only have Military Prefects (cf Tales from the Empire), while some are semi-autonomous under > local rulers (cf the Viceroy of Alderaan,
> > and the Diktat of Corellia - who seems to rule a very large and long-established Sector).
>
> Yes. Then there was the Moff in the first XWRS comic series, 'The Rebel
> Opposition', who also seemed to be working with the local Governor.
> Strangely, that Moff didn not seem to have any significant military
> forces - a few TIE's and AT-ST's, although an SD did arrive at one point
> later in the comic.
>
> Again, the last is strange. A lone SD should have been able to quikly
> squash the Cilpari rebellion. Granted, RS was present, but the Cilpari
> Resistance seemed pretty small.
Fair enough. Then, of course, Crimson Empire goes and muddles it even further by introducing a Major as a planetary governor!
> > > Glasgow wasn't in there somewhere? There were major commercial shipyards
> > > there IIRC
> >
> > Clydebank was the shipbuilding area of Glasgow.
>
> (slaps forehead).
>
> Showing off my outstanding knowledge of Scottish Geography here. :)
That's OK. My Aussie Geography's bad enough.
> > > (I was born in Edinburgh, myself).
> >
> > Makes two of us! Where are you now?
>
> Perth...Western Australia. Where all the action is. :)
>
>
> > Ach! Guess who a;most missed the start of a tutorial writing this reply!
>
> Not my fault. Move along, move along...
>
> Besides, I only missed the first ten minutes of 'Lancelot du Lac'.
>
> A film you should avoid unless you feel like a pounding headache. :)
A bit like European Diplomacy, 1815-1848, then :-)
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > Okay. I recomend SotP 100%. Same with I, Jedi. PoT I went into with very high
> > hopes, but was v. disappointed. One great villan, but under-used and surrounded by
> > drab ones, and the main plot 'surprises' were obvious from their introduction, but
> > Luke wanders about like Jerec with a blindfold most of the time.
>
> SotP is great. Haven't read 'I, Jedi' yet. It'n not on general release
> yet here, and the price in the import shops is beyond my means at the
> moment. PoT was a disappointment for me as well. I thought CotJ was
> different but interesting, however I found myself skimming through PoT.
IMHO, CotJ was a lot of buildup with an utter anti-climax. If they'd killed Callista....
> And the Daala subplot was obviouly an afterthought. I was interested in
> seeing Hambly's take on our favorite dunderheaded Imperial, but it was
> too brief. A shame, 'cause Daala is one of those characters that has a
> lot of potential, but was poorly written.
True. My main problems were: (a) she was characterised completely differently from KJA;
(b) she abandonned the Empire for no more reason than to did Hambly out of a plot-hole;
(c) they just let this war criminal walk off into the sunset with Liegius Vorn!
> > I agree in a funny sort of way. Lemeisk is proof that KJA can actually write decent
> > characters. I always feel KJA and Hambly have quite good ideas that are let down by
> > a lot of dross and some dumb characters.
>
> Agreed.
Why, thank you.
> > Zahn has described the Callie trilogy as
> > 'thrown together', and perhaps DS and PoT were re-written at some point.
>
> He said that? (Big delighted smile) My man!
Good, innit.
> > Read it. Or at least, read Tyrant's Test. The main problems with K-Mac, if they are
> > problems, is that he (by his own admission) ignores the finer points of continuity,
> > and gives a lot of space to his own characters (v. well done, but including a
> > Klingon :-) rather than the movie ones. Han, um, gets beaten up. Luke, ah, gets
> > lied to and gets his end away. Lando, er, floats round in an automated alien ship
> > that's being chased by the Core Warlords. Admiral Drayson is, um, head of an
> > Intelligence Service. Only Leia, Lobot and Chewie really DO anything! If you like
> > Tom Clancy-style technothrillers, it's a must. Otherwise, you might hate it.
>
> Listen to him you should!
>
> K-Mac is the most intelligently written SW you will find, period. The
> Leia/Lando/Luke stories DON'T TIE IN (much), so there are very few of
> the coincidences that you normally get in a SW book.
>
> Yes, some of the continuity is a bit off, but otherwise...
>
> Han gets beaten up! (and again in the Corellian trilogy)
>
> Luke gets fooled a lot!
>
> Admiral Drayson is a devious little beggar!
>
> Politics abound!
That was what I was trying to say :-)
> > IMHO, Zahn, Stackpole and Allston get the ballance right in a way that Hambly and
> > KJA don't. Good ideas are no good unless they really work. What's this about LFL
> > not liking Stackpole? How wrong can they be?
>
> They don't like him? Why on Earth not?!
>
> > Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it. A great
> > book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in uniforms.
>
> No problem with the book, but not at the top of my 'SW read-again pile'.
I'm sorry, I just found it... irritating.
> > > Wolverton
> >
> > I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether the Iron
> > Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, but I liked
> > the ref to the Mon Remonda.
>
> The error can be fixed - Zsinj is extremely sneaky, after all. The
> Hapans were great - you can imagine Han's hackles rising when he's
> around them.
I just found them a bit un-SW. I don't believe the Empire wouldn't have just crushed
them.
> > Don't forget Allston. I can never decide whether I like the whole TotJ thing or
> > not: all the mysticism Veitch and KJA put in really doesn't jibe with me, I think.
> > I preferred the Zahn view of the Force.
>
> I liked the first TotJ series (now called Knights of the Old Republic),
> and 'Dark Lords of the Sith'. The rest were ok, but 'Fall of the Sith
> Empire' annoyed me. Like Anderson's take on the Galactic Empire post-DE,
> the Sith Empire is defeated far too easily and quickly.
I think it's the usual KJA problem of a brilliant premise he can't solve. It holds the
interest at the start, and you think 'how's he going to solve it?' until you see him cop
out in the last few pages. Zahn is at the other end of the scale inasmuch as you have no
idea what's going to happen - until it does.
Policrat'
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
[snip]
> Wierd the common triats people share.
I didn't know I had any triats :-) Sorry.
[snip]
> >You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
>
> I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
> figured it out.
Child prodigy!
[snip]
> >IIRC, Lucas wasn't happy with the name, but was 'persuaded'. And as to >SOTE,
> >no-one's ever said what the exact GL/LFL contribution was.
>
> >[snip]
>
> ::shrugs:: Well, the fact that GL included them at all is a positive. But I
> don't think he likes the novels or comics. He's like a kid who made a great
> toy, but won't let anyone else play with it.
I don't know. He's like the kid with the toy he hates to give out to people he's
worried might break it. Remember, Allan Dean Foster ghosted the ANH novelisation,
and there's this (well sourced) rumour that Terry Brooks is writing the prequel
adaptations. Lucas gave them the jobs because he knows and trusts them both.
(That said, didn't Lucas and Chris Claremont collaborate on a novel a few years
back. Now there's a man I'd like to see do a SW comic/novel).
> >> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers, plus
> >> cheeper.
>
> >OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
>
> I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
At the end of SotP, you won't be able to....
> >> PoT I am not expected much, since I was monumentally frustrated by
> >> CoTJ. I just... I thought it was just the story until I started reading
> >> Habley's shorts in the Tales collection. She just does boring stories. To me
> >> anyway.
>
> > Boring... That's the word I was looking for!
>
> Wow! Sometimes the best words are the simplest!
true[snip]
I think it might have been rewritten to incorporate Callista. But then, it always
seemed padded out. Now if Callie had turned to the Dark Side (thanks to a certain
non-human Jedi from PoT, put in place of Durga - Darksaber and all), while Luke was
having to deal with Pellaeon....
That would have been a good novel!
> >> Say what you will about KJA (I have since learned he's
> >> hardly that great since he's not willing to cooperate with the others) but I
> >> lay the blame for this one at the feet of Hambly. I'm sorry, but she's got
> to
> >> be the poorest of the writers. She just takes too damn long to get to the
> point
> >> and the point is buried under tons of muck! Ugh! Her books are like Dagobah!
>
> >Hmmm. I don't know. OK on characters, bad on villans and plot.
>
> I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who they
> are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in CoTJ
> anyway, the Gammorian cow?
Um. Roganda/Irek/the Senex Lords/the Will/Drust Elegin... A feeble lot.
Don't get me wrong, PoT isn't 'poor'. It just fails to fulfil its potential. Now if
KJA and Hambly co-wrote a book....
> >> >> Stackpole is much better than LFL gives him credit, Allston is good too,
> >> enough
> >> >> that I cannot wait for Iron Fist, the next X-Wing novella. Zahn? Well, he
> >> >> started this, so I think we owe the most to him.
> >>
> >> >IMHO, Zahn, Stackpole and Allston get the ballance right in a way that
> >>Hambly
> >> and
> >> >KJA don't. Good ideas are no good unless they really work. What's this
> >>about
> >> LFL
> >> >not liking Stackpole? How wrong can they be?
> >>
> >> I never said LFL didn't like him, I just said I don't think he gets enough
> >> credit! Oh and carve my heart out with a spoon, I almost forgot about anoth
> >> fav: A.C. Crispen! Oh, the Han Solo Trilogy absolutly was outstanding! The
> best
> >> SW series I've read in many moons. LFL should lock her in a room somewhere
> and
> >> force her to write more stuff like this!
>
> >Hear, Hear. You listening, Ann? Start talking to Del Rey right away!
>
> Her, Stackpole, Zhan and Allston should all sign up pronto!
Absolutely!
> >> >> That being said, what about
> >> >> some of the other writers like Tyers
> >>
> >> >Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it.
> >A
> >> great
> >> >book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in
> >> >uniforms.
> >>
> >> What was wrong with Gaeriel? I must have missed something. I loved Thanas
> and
> >> was surprised not to see him more in SW. I enjoyed the book since it worked
> >> well as a follow up to Jedi. Now, if someone could explain what happened
> >> between Truce and the X-Wing comics...
>
> >I just really found her annoying! Personal opinion.
>
> To each his or her own. I thought either her or Mara were the best of possible
> choices for Luke.
I don't know. I think Anakh (sp) in BFC was good - equally screwed up - and I've
always thought Luke and Winter should get together :-)
> >> >> Wolverton
> >>
> >> >I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether
> >>the
> >> Iron
> >> >Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious,
> >>but I
> >> liked
> >> >the ref to the Mon Remonda.
> >>
> >> Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
> >> CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
> >> like "why is sex (which I considered a SW taboo up until this book) even
> being
> >> brought up here?"
>
> >Nope, it was always an SSD. Just got destroyed and reappeared. Why, I >don't
> know.
>
> When was it destroyed originally? That and I believe Wolverton called it a SD.
> Then again, I last read it in Dec. so...
I don't think he's ever quite explicit that there is an SSD called Iron Fist at
Dathomir, but there is an SSD, there is a flagship called Iron Fist, and Zsinj had
a (supposedly destroyed) SSD flagship, Iron Fist. I don't know!
> >> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
> >> >> Hunter trilogy?
> >>
> >> >I haven't read it yet :-)
> >>
> >> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
>
> >Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the world:->)
>
> I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d off if
> they do!
I think they might be....
[snip: I, Jedi]
> OK, in May 1999, I'll finally read it. PB.
You have worrying self-discipline.
> >> >> >> >[snip]
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > (Reformed Trekkie, whose views on Trek canon got him
> hounded
> >> >> >>back
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> > strange place called "sanity")
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (Reformed Trekker, who is baffled at what he ever saw in such poor
> >> >> >>acting
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> flimsy stories.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Ah, the rashness of youth :-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Well, we were all Luke SKywalker rushing off to Bespin at some point
> in
> >> our
> >> >> >> lives.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Was I?
> >> >>
> >> >> Were you? You tell me!
> >> >>
> >> >> May. The. Force. Be. With. You. (Best Shatner imitation, sorry!)
> >>
> >> >Live long and prosper... always! (Ben Spockenobi)
> >>
> >> Star Trek is the disease, the Force is the cure. That's my call.
>
> >Nicely put!
>
> [Matt now considers himself offically a member of RASSM]
Congrats!
::Policrat' has an expression of slight puzzlement::
Polirat'.
policraticus
Bobby Cox wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 1998 10:16:14 +0100, policraticus
> <policr...@hotmail.com> jumped up and announced to the general
> posting public:
>
> <mass nukage>
> >> Wha??? If this is true, Hambly just didn't do her homework! That being said, I
> >> guess I need to reread CotJ. (shudder)
> >
> >[Profound sympathy. Anyone notice that KJA gets all the flak for the cheesy
> >superweapons, but Hambly's are infinitely less convincing? Sure, developed
> >characters, but underdeveloped everything else.]
>
> I wouldn't classify the 'Eye' as a superweapon, more like a huge
> collection of conventional weapons. Would you call an Executor-class
> SSD a superweapon? After all, if it exerts a little effort, one
> Executor-class can level a largish chunk of a planet.
The Eye is a superweapon inasmuch as it holds the same relationship to a VSD as the
Death Star does to the Executor. It lies in the 'superweapon' line of development,
whereas the Executor (though probably more powerful) is a very large but conventional
capital ship. Why build it in an asteroid, though?
[snip]
> >> <<Good idea, but... nah. cf last frame of CE #4>>.
>
> >> Wraith did use the call signs for the Rouges during their assults, did they
> >> not? Besides, you would know the Rouges from the comics and the novels.
> >> Something isn't jiveing here.
> <minor spoiler for 'In the Empire's Service' and 'The Making of Baron
> Fel'>
>
> Such as the inclusion of Soontir Fel in Wraith Squadron? I know for a
> fact that he was captured at Brentaal IV, and defected to the Alliance
> in return for help in finding his wife (I own the comics :). Did
> Allston read the comics? You'd think that Mike'd tell him about it.
> Oh, well, it's a minor quibble anyway...
I presume Mrs. Fel dies because of the Rogues and he goes home. Or else she leaves
him. Or something.
> >Yes, but they were using squadron comm. And I don't think he was being ironic.
> >Anyway, they're described in the blurbs as "the all-new Rogue Squadron", and it
> >would make more sense to have the Wraiths in X-wings.
>
> I thought it was to fool the Imps (well, Zsinj's troops, anyway), that
> they were Rogue Squadron. Wedge even asked Kell Tainer to call him
> 'Tycho'.
I think we've got crossed wires here. I was talking about CE#5. Someone came up with
the ingenious idea that the 'Rogues' there were actually the 'Wraiths' - but the last
frame of CE#4 rules out that idea.
Policrat'
Mattemerso
Mattemerso wrote:
>[snip]
>> Wierd the common triats people share.
>I didn't know I had any triats :-) Sorry.
>[snip]
Spelling is highly overrated these days anyway. That being said, yeah, my
spelling kinda bites.
>> >You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
>>
>> I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
>> figured it out.
>Child prodigy!
I don't brag, but I just like to think I was blessed with a natural knack.
Maybe like Anakin.
>[snip]
>> >IIRC, Lucas wasn't happy with the name, but was 'persuaded'. And as to
>>SOTE,
>> >no-one's ever said what the exact GL/LFL contribution was.
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> ::shrugs:: Well, the fact that GL included them at all is a positive. But I
>> don't think he likes the novels or comics. He's like a kid who made a great
>> toy, but won't let anyone else play with it.
>I don't know. He's like the kid with the toy he hates to give out to people
>he's
>worried might break it. Remember, Allan Dean Foster ghosted the ANH
>novelisation,
>and there's this (well sourced) rumour that Terry Brooks is writing the
>prequel
>adaptations. Lucas gave them the jobs because he knows and trusts them >both.
True. Lucas really has no control over who writes the books. For all we know,
he could hate what Stackpole and Zahn are doing and be worshiping at the alter
of KJA and Hambly.
Have I made it clear I don't care for Hambly's writing yet? :-)
>(That said, didn't Lucas and Chris Claremont collaborate on a novel a few
>years
>back. Now there's a man I'd like to see do a SW comic/novel).
NovelS actually. Shadow Dawn and Shadow something. They are sequels of a
fashion to the movie Willow. (I kinda liked it myself.)
>> >> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers, plus
>> >> cheeper.
>>
>> >OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
>>
>> I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
>At the end of SotP, you won't be able to....
Think waiting for the paperback of TLC was easy? I just about had a stroke when
they brought in clones. Now THAT'S a more terrifying weapon than the Death
Star, IMHO. Scarier now that it can become a reality.
>true[snip]
Maybe so, maybe so. But then, if Durga hadn't been in Darksaber, would Ann have
used him in the Han Solo Trilogy? ::shrugs:: Maybe everything will get better
when I read PoT. I'm hoping.
>> >> Say what you will about KJA (I have since learned he's
>> >> hardly that great since he's not willing to cooperate with the others)
but I
>> >> lay the blame for this one at the feet of Hambly. I'm sorry, but she's
got
>> to
>> >> be the poorest of the writers. She just takes too damn long to get to the
>> point
>> >> and the point is buried under tons of muck! Ugh! Her books are like
Dagobah!
>>
>> >Hmmm. I don't know. OK on characters, bad on villans and plot.
>>
>> I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who
they
>> are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in CoTJ
>> anyway, the Gammorian cow?
>Um. Roganda/Irek/the Senex Lords/the Will/Drust Elegin... A feeble lot.
Uh... OK... must reread this book because I don't remember even one of these
people. Then again, I just raced through it to get to the end, just to see how
Hambly dug the characters out of the soup.
Hmmmm... well, considering they've been flamed alive by so many fans, I
seriously doubt we'll see either of them writing an actual novel again. KJA
will wrap up YJK and maybe more stuff for Dark Horse, but that's it. Hambly...
>Absolutely!
Then it's agreed. Those four should be the ones Del Rey should sign up.
>> >> >> That being said, what about
>> >> >> some of the other writers like Tyers
>> >>
>> >> >Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to
it.
>> >A
>> >> great
>> >> >book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in
>> >> >uniforms.
>> >>
>> >> What was wrong with Gaeriel? I must have missed something. I loved Thanas
>> and
>> >> was surprised not to see him more in SW. I enjoyed the book since it
worked
>> >> well as a follow up to Jedi. Now, if someone could explain what happened
>> >> between Truce and the X-Wing comics...
>>
>> >I just really found her annoying! Personal opinion.
>>
>> To each his or her own. I thought either her or Mara were the best of
possible
>> choices for Luke.
>I don't know. I think Anakh (sp) in BFC was good - equally screwed up - >and
I've
>always thought Luke and Winter should get together :-)
Hvae not read BFC, so I'll get back to you on that. This hasn't been explored
in the novels, but I thought Tycho and Winter were an item. Stackpole seems to
think so and I agree!
Well, Allston's next book is subtitled Iron Fist, so in July, we'll get our
answers.
>> >> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>> >> >> Hunter trilogy?
>> >>
>> >> >I haven't read it yet :-)
>> >>
>> >> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
>>
>> >Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the
world:->)
>>
>> I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d off
if
>> they do!
>I think they might be....
I for one would be very surprised if true. The X-Wings, BFC, and JA3 were all
released in paperbacks first. Really no reason to go hardcover with this.
>[snip: I, Jedi]
>> OK, in May 1999, I'll finally read it. PB.
>You have worrying self-discipline.
Don't see why it worries you. It's killing me to wait, but with college, I just
don't have the funds to get the hardcovers. I wish I could, but I don't. So, I
have to wait a while.
>Congrats!
:-) I didn't consider myself an accepted member of the club until the last
statement by you and acknoledgement by Rich. Just a rookie until then.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
>I think we've got crossed wires here. I was talking about CE#5. Someone >came
up with
>the ingenious idea that the 'Rogues' there were actually the 'Wraiths' - >but
the last
>frame of CE#4 rules out that idea.
Uh, that would be me with the idea. Yeah, maybe it was a grab for straws.
Refresh my memory since I have only skimmed CE up until now. What was the last
frame of CE #4? Then maybe I can justify myself.
MTFBWY,
Matt
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
It's a shot of B- and E-wings, looking portside aft (back left) from in the
cockpit of a B-wing, where the pilot's saying something like "Let's show these
Imps what Rogue Squadron can do". Don't get me wrong, I liked your idea. This just
shoots it down in flames like an eyeball against X-wings:-)
Policrat'
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
> Mattemerso wrote:
>
> >[snip]
>
> >> Wierd the common triats people share.
>
> >I didn't know I had any triats :-) Sorry.
>
> >[snip]
>
> Spelling is highly overrated these days anyway. That being said, yeah, my
> spelling kinda bites.
At's OK. Mine's not too hot sometimes.
> >> >You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
> >>
> >> I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
> >> figured it out.
>
> >Child prodigy!
>
> I don't brag, but I just like to think I was blessed with a natural knack.
> Maybe like Anakin.
Not another f****n Jedi!
> >[snip]
>
> >> >IIRC, Lucas wasn't happy with the name, but was 'persuaded'. And as to
> >>SOTE,
> >> >no-one's ever said what the exact GL/LFL contribution was.
> >>
> >> >[snip]
> >>
> >> ::shrugs:: Well, the fact that GL included them at all is a positive. But I
> >> don't think he likes the novels or comics. He's like a kid who made a great
> >> toy, but won't let anyone else play with it.
>
> >I don't know. He's like the kid with the toy he hates to give out to people
> >he's
> >worried might break it. Remember, Allan Dean Foster ghosted the ANH
> >novelisation,
> >and there's this (well sourced) rumour that Terry Brooks is writing the
> >prequel
> >adaptations. Lucas gave them the jobs because he knows and trusts them >both.
>
> True. Lucas really has no control over who writes the books. For all we know,
> he could hate what Stackpole and Zahn are doing and be worshiping at the alter
> of KJA and Hambly.
Does anyone believe that?
> Have I made it clear I don't care for Hambly's writing yet? :-)
Very.
> >(That said, didn't Lucas and Chris Claremont collaborate on a novel a few
> >years
> >back. Now there's a man I'd like to see do a SW comic/novel).
>
> NovelS actually. Shadow Dawn and Shadow something. They are sequels of a
> fashion to the movie Willow. (I kinda liked it myself.)
Willow, or the novels?
> >> >> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers, plus
> >> >> cheeper.
> >>
> >> >OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
> >>
> >> I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
>
> >At the end of SotP, you won't be able to....
>
> Think waiting for the paperback of TLC was easy? I just about had a stroke when
> they brought in clones. Now THAT'S a more terrifying weapon than the Death
> Star, IMHO. Scarier now that it can become a reality.
Another disturbing product of Scotland (Like modern artillery, TV and granulated
sugar:-)
> >I think it might have been rewritten to incorporate Callista. But then, it
> >always
> >seemed padded out. Now if Callie had turned to the Dark Side (thanks to a
> >certain
> >non-human Jedi from PoT, put in place of Durga - Darksaber and all), >while
> Luke was
> >having to deal with Pellaeon....
>
> >That would have been a good novel!
>
> Maybe so, maybe so. But then, if Durga hadn't been in Darksaber, would Ann have
> used him in the Han Solo Trilogy? ::shrugs:: Maybe everything will get better
> when I read PoT. I'm hoping.
I think so. Was in the KJA/McQuarrie Planet Guide (another eg of what KJA's good
at).
> >> I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who
> they
> >> are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in CoTJ
> >> anyway, the Gammorian cow?
>
> >Um. Roganda/Irek/the Senex Lords/the Will/Drust Elegin... A feeble lot.
>
> Uh... OK... must reread this book because I don't remember even one of these
> people. Then again, I just raced through it to get to the end, just to see how
> Hambly dug the characters out of the soup.
It really isn't worth it.
> >Don't get me wrong, PoT isn't 'poor'. It just fails to fulfil its potential.
> >Now if
> >KJA and Hambly co-wrote a book....
>
> Hmmmm... well, considering they've been flamed alive by so many fans, I
> seriously doubt we'll see either of them writing an actual novel again. KJA
> will wrap up YJK and maybe more stuff for Dark Horse, but that's it. Hambly...
I dunno. They brought her back to do PoT. I don't know why they don't just KILL
CALLISTA and be done with it! Or turn her into a twisted Dark Jedi.
[snip]
> >> >Hear, Hear. You listening, Ann? Start talking to Del Rey right away!
> >>
> >> Her, Stackpole, Zhan and Allston should all sign up pronto!
>
> >Absolutely!
>
> Then it's agreed. Those four should be the ones Del Rey should sign up.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, the only person we've heard any of negotiations with is
KJA (shudder) - for the 'Holocron' book. It'll either be his best work (better than
the Planet Encyclopaedia, the best TotJ and the DE intro), or a stinker that makes
Dark Apprentice look good.
> >> >> >> That being said, what about
> >> >> >> some of the other writers like Tyers
> >> >>
> >> >> >Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to
> it.
> >> >A
> >> >> great
> >> >> >book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in
> >> >> >uniforms.
> >> >>
> >> >> What was wrong with Gaeriel? I must have missed something. I loved Thanas
> >> and
> >> >> was surprised not to see him more in SW. I enjoyed the book since it
> worked
> >> >> well as a follow up to Jedi. Now, if someone could explain what happened
> >> >> between Truce and the X-Wing comics...
> >>
> >> >I just really found her annoying! Personal opinion.
> >>
> >> To each his or her own. I thought either her or Mara were the best of
> possible
> >> choices for Luke.
>
> >I don't know. I think Anakh (sp) in BFC was good - equally screwed up - >and
> I've
> >always thought Luke and Winter should get together :-)
>
> Hvae not read BFC, so I'll get back to you on that. This hasn't been explored
> in the novels, but I thought Tycho and Winter were an item. Stackpole seems to
> think so and I agree!
Okay. Okay.
Its and SSD - read Wraith Squadron!
> >> >> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
> >> >> >> Hunter trilogy?
> >> >>
> >> >> >I haven't read it yet :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
> >>
> >> >Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the
> world:->)
> >>
> >> I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d off
> if
> >> they do!
>
> >I think they might be....
>
> I for one would be very surprised if true. The X-Wings, BFC, and JA3 were all
> released in paperbacks first. Really no reason to go hardcover with this.
OK. Hope so!
[snip]
::Policrat holds up a road-sign::
Welcome to RASSM City.
Policrat'
Speculator
[snip]
matte...@aol.com (Mattemerso)did you consider the great discounts at
the ORB while you wrote:
>::shrugs:: Also, if Lucas tended to Death Star the novels, why include the
>Swoop and Outrider from SOTE in SW? Also, why use the name Cours. at all? All
>are novel creations.
The books and the SEs are 2 different timelines ...
>>> >> >[snip]
>>> Wolverton
>>I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether the Iron
>>Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, but I liked
>>the ref to the Mon Remonda.
>Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
>CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
Iron Fist WAS an SSD.
Han Solo blew it up before he returned to Coruscant in COPL.
Zinsj survived, took over an ISD as his new flagship, and renamed it
"Iron Fist" ...
>like "why is sex (which I considered a SW taboo up until this book) even being
>brought up here?"
maybe you considered wrong ;)
>>> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>>> Hunter trilogy?
>>I haven't read it yet :-)
>Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
Not just So Cal :)
[snip]
>::shrugs:: Dunno. Oh, and am I the only one who noted only KJA has used the
>TOTJ series in his books? I have yet to see anything connected to that stuff in
>a Zahn or a Stackpole novel. (Think Crispen used it in Han Solo, but am not
>sure.)
KJA referred to it in JA3, and Stackpole by necessity had to include
it in "I, Jedi".
I think it was mentioned in "Correllian Trilogy", but I can't be sure.
mtfbwy,
Speculator.
e-mail: spec...@infoshop.u-net.com
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policraticus
Welcome back to the thread!
Speculator wrote:
> [snip]
>
> matte...@aol.com (Mattemerso)did you consider the great discounts at
> the ORB while you wrote:
> >::shrugs:: Also, if Lucas tended to Death Star the novels, why include the
> >Swoop and Outrider from SOTE in SW? Also, why use the name Cours. at all? All
> >are novel creations.
>
> The books and the SEs are 2 different timelines ...
Huh? I thought we'd just agreed it was all a mess?
> >>> >> >[snip]
>
> >>> Wolverton
>
> >>I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether the Iron
> >>Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, but I liked
> >>the ref to the Mon Remonda.
>
> >Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
> >CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
>
> Iron Fist WAS an SSD.
>
> Han Solo blew it up before he returned to Coruscant in COPL.
>
> Zinsj survived, took over an ISD as his new flagship, and renamed it
> "Iron Fist" ...
No no no no. A SSD (Iron Fist) is at Dathomir, under repair in Zsinj's dockyards, when
Han arrives:
"docked around it were thousands of craft -- one
Super Star Destroyer, dozens of old Victory-class
models and escort frigates, thousands of box-like
barges." (CoPL, p.85 Quote courtesy of Curtis Saxton's page:
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~saxton/starwars/novels/tcopl.html)
Though it's never stated explicitly, this is presumably the same Iron Fist as Zsinj had
before and later, which Han had supposedly destroyed. I think your confusion comes
because, according to WEG, Zsinj re-names his flagship from 'Brawl' to 'Iron Fist' at
some point (before Wraith Squadron) after the VSD which had been his first command.
But at any rate, it's a right old mess.
Policrat'
Mattemerso
>[snip]
>matte...@aol.com (Mattemerso)did you consider the great discounts >at
>the ORB while you wrote:
>>::shrugs:: Also, if Lucas tended to Death Star the novels, why include the
>>Swoop and Outrider from SOTE in SW? Also, why use the name Cours. at all? All
>>are novel creations.
>The books and the SEs are 2 different timelines ...
But the originals are on the same timeline as the books? ::shakes head:: I'm
going to get some Advil, I'll be right back.
>>>>> >> >[snip]
>>>>> Wolverton
>>>>I liked CopL a lot. Except for the major continuity error about whether the
Iron
>>>>Fist was destroyed or not! Though I found the Hapans pretty obnoxious, but
I liked
>>>>the ref to the Mon Remonda.
>>Add that to the fact that Stackpole called Iron Fist a SSD in X-Wing, but by
>>CopL, it was a SD, we have a flaw. Maybe Allston will explain it. I was also
>Iron Fist WAS an SSD.
>Han Solo blew it up before he returned to Coruscant in COPL.
>Zinsj survived, took over an ISD as his new flagship, and renamed it
>"Iron Fist" ...
Thought so. Hope that will be mentioned in the X-Wing stories, since Han made a
cameo in Wraith Squadron.
>>like "why is sex (which I considered a SW taboo up until this book) even
being
>>brought up here?"
>maybe you considered wrong ;)
Maybe so, but it was after all, the first time I had really seen it brought up
in SW, beyond kissing.
>>>>> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>>> Hunter trilogy?
>>>>I haven't read it yet :-)
>>Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
>Not just So Cal :)
>[snip]
Thought I would get flamed for mentioning So. Cal, so I ducked. :-)
>>::shrugs:: Dunno. Oh, and am I the only one who noted n or a Stackpole novel.
(Think Crispen used it in Han Solo, but am not
>>sure.)
>KJA referred to it in JA3, and Stackpole by necessity had to include
>it in "I, Jedi".
>I think it was mentioned in "Correllian Trilogy", but I can't be sure.
I'll be reading Correllian sometime in June, so I'll let ya know.
>mtfbwy,
>Speculator.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
>Thanks, Matt -- I appreciate that! :)
Credit where it is due to our elders, Rich.
MTFBWY,
Matt
OtterPop 1
On Thu, May 21, 1998 16:01 EDT, policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>No no no no. A SSD (Iron Fist) is at Dathomir, under repair
>in Zsinj's dockyards, when Han arrives:
<snip>
>Though it's never stated explicitly, this is presumably the
>same Iron Fist as Zsinj had before and later, which Han
>had supposedly destroyed. I think your confusion
>omes because, according to WEG, Zsinj re-names his
>flagship from 'Brawl' to 'Iron Fist' at some point (before
>Wraith Squadron) after the VSD which had been his first
>command.
Well, maybe, but I think the confusion is primarily the result of three
puzzling passages in COPL:
1) In Chapter 1, it's clearly implied that the SSD Iron Fist has been
destroyed.
2) When Han shows up at Dathomir there's an SSD at the drydocks, but it's
not named. Is it the Iron Fist? Maybe.
3) When Han blows up the ship at the end of the book it *is* called the Iron
Fist, but Wolverton never calls it a Super Star Destroyer, instead using only
"Star Destroyer."
My personal interpretation of these events goes something like this: The Mon
Remonda & the SSD Iron Fist have a big brawl; Han thinks his enemy is destroyed
but the Iron Fist manages to limp away to the Dathomir shipyards for repairs.
This is the same ship Han sees when he arrives. It's also the same ship that
he destroys at the end of the book, but due to that intangible concept known as
writer's privilege, the omniscient narrator only refers to as a "Star
Destroyer." (After all, a Super Star Destroyer *is* a Star Destroyer, just a
different class.)
Dan
Mattemerso
>Mattemerso wrote:
>> Mattemerso wrote:
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> Wierd the common triats people share.
>>
>> >I didn't know I had any triats :-) Sorry.
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> Spelling is highly overrated these days anyway. That being said, yeah, my
>> spelling kinda bites.
>At's OK. Mine's not too hot sometimes.
Understandable. Sometimes we slip a key in order to say what we need to as fast
as we can. Sometimes.... well, not everyone has gone to Oxford. No offense to
those who have.
>> >> >You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
>> >>
>> >> I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
>> >> figured it out.
>>
>> >Child prodigy!
>>
>> I don't brag, but I just like to think I was blessed with a natural knack.
>> Maybe like Anakin.
>Not another f****n Jedi!
Well, since I haven't created the world's first working lightsaber yet, I don't
think we have to worry. Yet. :-)
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> >IIRC, Lucas wasn't happy with the name, but was 'persuaded'. And as to
>> >>SOTE,
>> >> >no-one's ever said what the exact GL/LFL contribution was.
>> >>
>> >> >[snip]
>> >>
>> >> ::shrugs:: Well, the fact that GL included them at all is a positive. But
I
>> >> don't think he likes the novels or comics. He's like a kid who made a
great
>> >> toy, but won't let anyone else play with it.
>>
>> >I don't know. He's like the kid with the toy he hates to give out to people
>> >he's
>> >worried might break it. Remember, Allan Dean Foster ghosted the ANH
>> >novelisation,
>> >and there's this (well sourced) rumour that Terry Brooks is writing the
>> >prequel
>> >adaptations. Lucas gave them the jobs because he knows and trusts them
>both.
>>
>> True. Lucas really has no control over who writes the books. For all we
know,
>> he could hate what Stackpole and Zahn are doing and be worshiping at the
alter
>> of KJA and Hambly.
>Does anyone believe that?
No, but the point is none of us knows what Lucas is thinking.
>> Have I made it clear I don't care for Hambly's writing yet? :-)
>Very.
Gee, I was hoping for a grin. Now I think I offened a Hambly fan. If so, I
apologize.
>> >(That said, didn't Lucas and Chris Claremont collaborate on a novel a few
>> >years
>> >back. Now there's a man I'd like to see do a SW comic/novel).
>>
>> NovelS actually. Shadow Dawn and Shadow something. They are sequels of a
>> fashion to the movie Willow. (I kinda liked it myself.)
>Willow, or the novels?
Willow, since I have not read said novels yet.
>> >> >> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers,
plus
>> >> >> cheeper.
>> >>
>> >> >OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
>> >>
>> >> I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
>>
>> >At the end of SotP, you won't be able to....
>>
>> Think waiting for the paperback of TLC was easy? I just about had a stroke
when
>> they brought in clones. Now THAT'S a more terrifying weapon than the Death
>> Star, IMHO. Scarier now that it can become a reality.
>Another disturbing product of Scotland (Like modern artillery, TV and
>granulated
>sugar:-)
Then again, Scotland gave us kilts and William Wallace, so points for them.
Plus some of the best ships ever to sail. (Amatur liner fan here.)
Kinda sympathize with the Scots since I'm part Irish. Both cultures crushed
under the boot of the British Empire. But I don't want to start a major flame
war, so I will halt there.
>>> >I think it might have been rewritten to incorporate Callista. But then, it
>>> >always
>>> >seemed padded out. Now if Callie had turned to the Dark Side (thanks to a
>>> >certain
>> >non-human Jedi from PoT, put in place of Durga - Darksaber and all),
>>while
>> Luke was
>> >having to deal with Pellaeon....
>>
>> >That would have been a good novel!
>>
>> Maybe so, maybe so. But then, if Durga hadn't been in Darksaber, would Ann
have
>> used him in the Han Solo Trilogy? ::shrugs:: Maybe everything will get
better
>> when I read PoT. I'm hoping.
>I think so. Was in the KJA/McQuarrie Planet Guide (another eg of what >KJA's
good
>at).
I think Darksaber would have been better if, as you have said, Callista went to
the darkness, which would have made PoT VERY interesting!
>> >> I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who
>> they
>> >> are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in
CoTJ
>> >> anyway, the Gammorian cow?
>>
>> >Um. Roganda/Irek/the Senex Lords/the Will/Drust Elegin... A feeble lot.
>>
>> Uh... OK... must reread this book because I don't remember even one of these
>> people. Then again, I just raced through it to get to the end, just to see
how
>> Hambly dug the characters out of the soup.
>It really isn't worth it.
Well, consider this: It usually takes me a day to read a SW novel. (FYI, the
record is six hours for Paradise Snare. I was back at the bookstore the next
day looking for the next two and the Daley trilogy). CotJ took me two weeks!
>> >Don't get me wrong, PoT isn't 'poor'. It just fails to fulfil its
potential.
>> >Now if
>> >KJA and Hambly co-wrote a book....
>>
>> Hmmmm... well, considering they've been flamed alive by so many fans, I
>> seriously doubt we'll see either of them writing an actual novel again. KJA
>> will wrap up YJK and maybe more stuff for Dark Horse, but that's it.
>Hambly...
>I dunno. They brought her back to do PoT. I don't know why they don't just
>KILL
>CALLISTA and be done with it! Or turn her into a twisted Dark Jedi.
>[snip]
They kinda had to bring her back to end it. But don't look for her to write any
more any time real soon,
[Wonders how different the Callista trilogy would have been if Ann had written
CotJ and PoT and Stackpool had written DS.]
>> >> >Hear, Hear. You listening, Ann? Start talking to Del Rey right away!
>> >>
>> >> Her, Stackpole, Zhan and Allston should all sign up pronto!
>>
>> >Absolutely!
>>
>> Then it's agreed. Those four should be the ones Del Rey should sign up.
>Absolutely. Unfortunately, the only person we've heard any of >negotiations
with is
>KJA (shudder) - for the 'Holocron' book. It'll either be his best work
>(better than
>the Planet Encyclopaedia, the best TotJ and the DE intro), or a stinker >that
makes
>Dark Apprentice look good.
Dark Apprentice was a strange creation. A plotline that could have been handled
in half the book that it was. ::shrugs:: I think JA3 would have made a better
comic series than novels.
>Okay. Okay.
Hey, easy there. I wasn't yelling, just voicing my agreement with Stackpole's
plot. If you disagree, cool.
I'm not arguing that it isn't. I know it was for X-Wing. The dispute comes over
what happened. I'm going with the theory that it's destroyed (maybe in the next
X-Wing book) or even captured and Zjinji renames a SD Iron Fist.
(sigh) I just love continuity.
>> >> >> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
>> >> >> >> Hunter trilogy?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >I haven't read it yet :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
>> >>
>> >> >Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the
>> world:->)
>> >>
>> >> I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d
off
>> if
>> >> they do!
>>
>> >I think they might be....
>>
>> I for one would be very surprised if true. The X-Wings, BFC, and JA3 were
all
>> released in paperbacks first. Really no reason to go hardcover with this.
>OK. Hope so!
>[snip]
You and me both, my friend. You and me both.
:-) I'll mind my manners and uphold the letter of the law while within.
And I always said I wasn't gonna play RASSM City. :-)
10 points if you get the joke.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Mattemerso
> It's a shot of B- and E-wings, looking portside aft (back left) from in >the
>cockpit of a B-wing, where the pilot's saying something like "Let's show
>these
>Imps what Rogue Squadron can do". Don't get me wrong, I liked your idea. >This
just
>shoots it down in flames like an eyeball against X-wings:-)
I don't follow. Yelling that out on a open mike isn't exactly SOP. ("Cut the
chatter, Red 2!") I could be really wrong here. I still think it's the Wraiths
posing as the Rouges. Besides, why would NR dispatch an offical and high
profile group like the Rouges against what is really a skirmish when they would
better be served in retaking Cour.
Anyone know how the got Cour. back in the first place?
MTFBWY,
Matt
policraticus
OtterPop 1 wrote:
Would make sense, except for the fact that, through most of the novel, while Han is
well aware that there is an SSD at Dathomir, he fails to connect it with the Iron
Fist, but Luke realises as soon as he sees it. In fact, even after seeing Zsinj's
damaged SSD at Dathomir, Han's still going on about how he destroyed the Iron Fist.
Is he that stupid? :-)
Policrat'
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> > SotP is great. Haven't read 'I, Jedi' yet. It'n not on general release
> > yet here, and the price in the import shops is beyond my means at the
> > moment. PoT was a disappointment for me as well. I thought CotJ was
> > different but interesting, however I found myself skimming through PoT.
>
> IMHO, CotJ was a lot of buildup with an utter anti-climax. If they'd killed Callista....
I liked Callista whole lot more when she inhabited the Eye of Palpatine.
As a regular
character she was, well, boring. Mara's a lot better for Luke - if he
pulls his whining farmboy routine on her, she'll take his head off. :)
RE: Daala -
> True. My main problems were: (a) she was characterised completely differently from KJA;
> (b) she abandonned the Empire for no more reason than to did Hambly out of a plot-hole;
> (c) they just let this war criminal walk off into the sunset with Liegius Vorn!
I didn't think she was that different. And given some time to reflect on
her 'brilliant strategies', I think some self-criticism was probably in
order. Her desertion from the Empire was a cop-out, but I definately
agree with c).
"Sure you murdered thousands, if not millions of innocent people, but
we're forgiving people."
Maybe they can't handle the idea of a war cromes trial in SW. The end of
TBW suggested that Fliry (sp) Vorru was going to undergo such a trial,
but it hasn't been mentioned yet.
> > Admiral Drayson is a devious little beggar!
> >
> > Politics abound!
>
> That was what I was trying to say :-)
Yes. Actually, one of my favorite bits was the characterisation of
Drayson. He goes from mediocre Admiral to 'crafty head of super-secret
intelligence unit'. How sneaky can you get? :)
> > > Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it. A great
> > > book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in uniforms.
> >
> > No problem with the book, but not at the top of my 'SW read-again pile'.
>
> I'm sorry, I just found it... irritating.
Anything in particular? Gaeriel was no prob - I knew she and Luke
weren't getting hitched, so she was largely irrelevant to me. The
governer, Nereus (?) was a bit weak as a villain, but I liked the
Ssi-Ruuk. My biggest annoyance is not the novel itself, - it's that
no-one has followed up on it.
> > The error can be fixed - Zsinj is extremely sneaky, after all. The
> > Hapans were great - you can imagine Han's hackles rising when he's
> > around them.
>
> I just found them a bit un-SW. I don't believe the Empire wouldn't have just crushed
> them.
Maybe, but no more so than the Mon Cals or whatever. The Empire could
have put a large task force over Calamari in days, if not weeks, and
squashed them. Same problem with the Goodwin comics and the 'Yavin
blockade'. It was implied the rebels remained on Yavin 4 for weeks after
SW4 - surely the Empire could have moved its blockade fleet in and
trashed the place? After all, there was no substatial fleet presence -
the comics show some freighters, Nebulon-B frigates and Corvettes, but
that's about it.
> > I liked the first TotJ series (now called Knights of the Old Republic),
> > and 'Dark Lords of the Sith'. The rest were ok, but 'Fall of the Sith
> > Empire' annoyed me. Like Anderson's take on the Galactic Empire post-DE,
> > the Sith Empire is defeated far too easily and quickly.
>
> I think it's the usual KJA problem of a brilliant premise he can't solve. It holds the
> interest at the start, and you think 'how's he going to solve it?' until you see him cop
> out in the last few pages. Zahn is at the other end of the scale inasmuch as you have no
> idea what's going to happen - until it does.
Yes. Even before the 'Fall of the Sith Empire' came out I sent a letter
to DHC querying how they would pull it off. And of course, they didn't.
It was completely unconvincing.
> Policrat'
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> I think it's because KJA feels the need to EXPLAIN everything. Stackpole and Zahn just
> MENTION it. What exactly were the Alderaanian Expeditions? What exactly is a "Sith
> lanvarock"? And just what does a "come-up flector" do?
Yes, and...but I want to know! What *is* a Sith lanvarock?! Damn that
Stackpole! :)
> I can never decide whether KJA's novels are over-worked or under-worked. They just never
> seem quite... finished. It's as if he either can't work out how to solve the situations
> he sets up (unlike Zahn, for instance, who is the most ingenious SW plotter of the lot)
> or he's rewritten them to death.
IIRC, a letter from one Elwyn Chow in a TotJ comic mentioned that KJA's
work seems less polished, less refined than the work of Zahn and co. I
would have to agree. 'Under-worked' seems to apply more in this case.
Zahn is the best at overall plotting, but he's weaker on the fine
details of writing - he repeats himself a lot. I cringe every time Han's
lip 'twists'.
> Policrat'
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
Bobby Cox wrote:
> Just the major stuff will keep me happy. Stuff like the Jedi Academy
> (good idea, less-than-ideal execution), the Solo kids, Thrawn (eagerly
> awaiting Vision of the Future, I am...), etc. There's some stuff that
> I wouldn't mind seeing dumped... 'The Crystal Star' would be my first
> choice... God, that was a dire novel. I think I wasted my money with
> that one.
It's a testament to the character that if Thrawn HAD returned in some
fashion in SotP, I *almost* would have let it go...
Agree about JA3 - not bad, but doesn't even come close to Zahn's mighty
trilogy. 'The Crystal Star' is a book I read once and haven't touched
again. I don't recall it being 'dire', just boring. Nothing exceptional
happened, no outstanding villain, no space battle.
Blah. You wasted your money? *I* bought it in hardback!
> Such as the inclusion of Soontir Fel in Wraith Squadron? I know for a
> fact that he was captured at Brentaal IV, and defected to the Alliance
> in return for help in finding his wife (I own the comics :). Did
> Allston read the comics? You'd think that Mike'd tell him about it.
> Oh, well, it's a minor quibble anyway...
THE DHC web site brief on it implies he's a double agent, kinda like
Erisi Dlarit. They mention something along the lines of Fel 'revealing
his true colours' in the final battle.
Maybe his wife snuffs it as well.
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
Ian Roney
policraticus wrote:
> Calls him 'Chimaera's captain' (small c), but in Commodores and Admirals can certainly command single > ships in SW.
So the captain effectively becomes the XO, so what does the XO become?
May, you must be really pissed as an XO if a Grand Admiral comes aboard.
All the command staff take one step down. :)
> > The RS novels mention the Navy is disgruntled at being led by Imp
> > Intelligence - perhaps although Isard ruled the Empire, the Navy
> > insisted on handling its own affairs.
>
> That's not the issue. In RS, Isard has wiped out the Ubiqutorate (I.I. high command) to assume sole > control of the Empire, but Thrawn still has
> an Ubiqutorate working for him. Implies a schism between Coruscant Empire (Isard kills Ubiqutorate, > takes power) and Pellaeon/Thrawn Empire
> (Ubiqutorate survives - as best-organised part of Imperial power structure according to WEG).
I didn't see any reference to the demise if the Ubiqtorate under Isard.
Do you have any reference page for this?
OK, this beginning to make some sense (TWO Empires, buncha warlords -
Zsinj by far the most powerful and threatening, sealed Deep Core). My
beef then is that the RS novels *never* clarify any of this. As you say
it is all implied and involves reading between the lines. Whenever the
Rogues talk about the Empire, it is just that...*the* Empire. Allston
makes the same distinction - Warlords, NR, Empire. Perhaps at this point
it has reverted to 'one' Empire again - what will become Thrawn's
Empire.
Idle thoughts - who was holding KDY at this point? A warlord? It can't
be Isard. By the later books she was having to beg, borrow and steal to
get a lousy Interdictor. The taking of Kuat would be a good story. (Have
you seen the description of Kuat in "Platt's Starport Guide"? The place
is a fortress).
The captain of the Lusankya was considering the state of the 'Iceheart
Empire' in TBW and was annoyed that Thyferra did not support a TIE
production facility. He also implies that there were many such
facilities scattered across the galaxy, which seems to support the K-Mac
assertion of many (as opposed to few) naval yards.
> I don't think either of them can afford to accept the fact that they're in opposition. Pellaeon might > not recognize Isard's political authority,
> but both Pellaeon and Isard essentially rule by projection of force. Isard sits on Coruscant and sends > out SDs to try and hold the Core together,
> Pellaeon roams the Mid Rim with his battlefleet. I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to argue > with either.
Interesting, then, that they go after Isard first. I would imagine that
taking the Core is more difficult than taking the Mid Rim. After all,
the Alliance has a broad base of popular support in the Rim territories,
and the Imp fleets would be spread more thinly. I can only think of two
motivations for going for the 'hard target' first:
a) Isard's power base was unstable. Some of the Imps realise she is a
loony. The Navy resents being ordered around by a Intelligence
director.
b) The reason given in the novels. Capture of Coruscant legitimises the
Alliance to a greater degree. Coruscant is the political and
social heart of the galaxy and has been for thousands of years. It
confers great authority on those who control it.
>
> s'pose. But that still leaves eleven of the Empire's top officers MIA!
Ok. Now all we need is a story covering what happened to them.
> Would be good. Stackpole has said Baron Fel's the only Imp he's interested in writing, but I'm sure > there's someone out there who'd be happy to
> do the work! Are you listening, Dark Horse?
Hell, I'd do it for free! (shuffles uncomfortably) 'Course, I haven't
got anything published yet, so that kinda shoots me down in flames.
A decent Imperial story would be excellent. You could do a follow a
young, ambitious TIE pilot as he climbs the ranks, or a more
politically-oriented story with SD officers. Personally, I'd like to see
a 'Hunt for Red October' style story.
> Make that 3 categories:
>
(snip NR fleet breakdown)
A quick question. Are you cheating? :) Do you have all the books with
you? I have to travel halfway across Perth to Uni by bus, so lugging the
novels with me is kinda difficult.
If you are doing all this off the top of your head, I'm impressed.
> I think Kennedy had a fair idea of what he wanted. After all, he designed the E-wing, Howlrunner and A-9 > Vigilance, not to mention the Eclipse,
> and the Avenger-class SSD that appears several times in DE,
'Avenger-class' SSD? Was this the 'Allegiance' over Calamari? I don't
have the DESB.
> The Victory-III is about the ONLY 'new' ship to appear regularly in DE that doesn't have clear > evidence of 'class' design, and the presence
> of these ships in Darksaber (built from new) suggests thay Kennedy and KJA had a little chat. I'm not > counting the massive carriers at Byss,
> which seem to be one-offs (though at least two of them do share the same design).
The ships in orbit over Byss are unsual. They don't appear anywhere else
in SW, and they remain largely unidentified.
Curtis Saxton's web page
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~saxton/starwars/warships.html does a
breakdown of the ships seen there, and argues that they are designs
intermediate between the SSD/Executor-class and common
Imperial/Imperator' models. (I don't know if you have seen his pages. A
lot of quite convincing material regarding various SW ship and science
details, esp regarding the SD being just that - a 'destroyer', rather
than than the 'battleship' it has become in most SW fiction. If you
haven't seen his pages, I strongly recommend them.)
> > Thet did seem to use 'swarm' tactics in Darksabre, though I didn't like
> > it much - they are still big ships, and KJA didn't give them sufficient
> > 'weight'. They sounded more like fighter squadrons than heavy cruisers.
>
> I think the VSD tactics in Darksaber make a lot of sense. Basically, it's Blitzkreig.
Oh, the tactics are sound, but I didn't like Anderson's descrptive
style. Like in his JA3, the cap ships didn't have the feeling of
'weight' that they had in the films.
> > Wasn't 'Shockwave' described as being larger than the other ISD's in
> > orbit? Some new design, I suppose.
>
> Either Shockwave was an Avenger-class SSD, or possibly Harrsk was producing mostly the scaled-down > ISD-IIIs of DE.
I think Harrsk was producing mostly ISD's, which is why Teradoc used the
VSD approach to overwhelm him. And what about the death of Kratas. Did
that seem a little pointless to you?
> After EE, even with Byss destroyed, the Empire's still in the most powerful position since Endor.
Not according to KJA. The Empire loses half the galaxy within a few
weeks. Which is ridiculous.
> Fair enough. Then, of course, Crimson Empire goes and muddles it even further by introducing a Major as > a planetary governor!
Could we pass that off as a military prefect?
>
> Policrat'
Ian Roney
thra...@yahoo.com
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
> >Mattemerso wrote:
>
> >> Mattemerso wrote:
> >>
> >> >[snip]
> >>
> >> >> Wierd the common triats people share.
> >>
> >> >I didn't know I had any triats :-) Sorry.
> >>
> >> >[snip]
> >>
> >> Spelling is highly overrated these days anyway. That being said, yeah, my
> >> spelling kinda bites.
>
> >At's OK. Mine's not too hot sometimes.
>
> Understandable. Sometimes we slip a key in order to say what we need to as fast
> as we can. Sometimes.... well, not everyone has gone to Oxford. No offense to
> those who have.
None taken. Or by those who're still here.
::Policrat' realises he is about to be beaten sensless like a Skywalker on a bad
day by massed RASSMers shouting "Pedant!"::
<Ouch!>
> >> >> >You could read AND use a tape recorder at age 2?
> >> >>
> >> >> I believe so. Mom got me one of those big Fisher Price things and I just
> >> >> figured it out.
> >>
> >> >Child prodigy!
> >>
> >> I don't brag, but I just like to think I was blessed with a natural knack.
> >> Maybe like Anakin.
>
> >Not another f****n Jedi!
>
> Well, since I haven't created the world's first working lightsaber yet, I don't
> think we have to worry. Yet. :-)
::sigh of relief::
Use the Force, Matt :-)
> >> Have I made it clear I don't care for Hambly's writing yet? :-)
>
> >Very.
>
> Gee, I was hoping for a grin. Now I think I offened a Hambly fan. If so, I
> apologize.
Oi, that's harsh! I'm not a Hambly 'fan'. I just think in a league of badness from
1 to KJA, she's probably only about 5.
> >> >(That said, didn't Lucas and Chris Claremont collaborate on a novel a few
> >> >years
> >> >back. Now there's a man I'd like to see do a SW comic/novel).
> >>
> >> NovelS actually. Shadow Dawn and Shadow something. They are sequels of a
> >> fashion to the movie Willow. (I kinda liked it myself.)
>
> >Willow, or the novels?
>
> Willow, since I have not read said novels yet.
OK. Anyone out there know what Claremont's like in a Lucas franchise?
> >> >> >> SotP is my Christmas gift, since I prefer paperbacks to hardcovers,
> plus
> >> >> >> cheeper.
> >> >>
> >> >> >OK. Fair enough. Means you have to wait a whole year to VotF, though!
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not complaining. Somethings are well worth waiting for.
> >>
> >> >At the end of SotP, you won't be able to....
> >>
> >> Think waiting for the paperback of TLC was easy? I just about had a stroke
> when
> >> they brought in clones. Now THAT'S a more terrifying weapon than the Death
> >> Star, IMHO. Scarier now that it can become a reality.
>
> >Another disturbing product of Scotland (Like modern artillery, TV and
> >granulated
> >sugar:-)
>
> Then again, Scotland gave us kilts and William Wallace, so points for them.
> Plus some of the best ships ever to sail. (Amatur liner fan here.)
>
> Kinda sympathize with the Scots since I'm part Irish. Both cultures crushed
> under the boot of the British Empire. But I don't want to start a major flame
> war, so I will halt there.
Don't worry. So long as we can keep the English happy and fool the world into
thinking we're a bunch of mad blokes in skirts while we take over the world. :-)
::Policraticus Palpatine cackles::
> >>> >I think it might have been rewritten to incorporate Callista. But then, it
> >>> >always
> >>> >seemed padded out. Now if Callie had turned to the Dark Side (thanks to a
> >>> >certain
> >> >non-human Jedi from PoT, put in place of Durga - Darksaber and all),
> >>while
> >> Luke was
> >> >having to deal with Pellaeon....
> >>
> >> >That would have been a good novel!
> >>
> >> Maybe so, maybe so. But then, if Durga hadn't been in Darksaber, would Ann
> have
> >> used him in the Han Solo Trilogy? ::shrugs:: Maybe everything will get
> better
> >> when I read PoT. I'm hoping.
>
> >I think so. Was in the KJA/McQuarrie Planet Guide (another eg of what >KJA's
> good
> >at).
>
> I think Darksaber would have been better if, as you have said, Callista went to
> the darkness, which would have made PoT VERY interesting!
Aye. In fact, it would have made PoT a completely different novel.
> >> >> I know. She throws in good characters, then takes 20 pages to explain who
> >> they
> >> >> are and why they are there in the first place. Who was the bad guy in
> CoTJ
> >> >> anyway, the Gammorian cow?
> >>
> >> >Um. Roganda/Irek/the Senex Lords/the Will/Drust Elegin... A feeble lot.
> >>
> >> Uh... OK... must reread this book because I don't remember even one of these
> >> people. Then again, I just raced through it to get to the end, just to see
> how
> >> Hambly dug the characters out of the soup.
>
> >It really isn't worth it.
>
> Well, consider this: It usually takes me a day to read a SW novel. (FYI, the
> record is six hours for Paradise Snare. I was back at the bookstore the next
> day looking for the next two and the Daley trilogy). CotJ took me two weeks!
You have a point. And you read fast. (FYI my record is 4 1/4 hrs non-stop for I,
Jedi, skimming bits). But CotJ took about 3 days.
> >> >Don't get me wrong, PoT isn't 'poor'. It just fails to fulfil its
> potential.
> >> >Now if
> >> >KJA and Hambly co-wrote a book....
> >>
> >> Hmmmm... well, considering they've been flamed alive by so many fans, I
> >> seriously doubt we'll see either of them writing an actual novel again. KJA
> >> will wrap up YJK and maybe more stuff for Dark Horse, but that's it.
> >Hambly...
>
> >I dunno. They brought her back to do PoT. I don't know why they don't just
> >KILL
> >CALLISTA and be done with it! Or turn her into a twisted Dark Jedi.
>
> >[snip]
>
> They kinda had to bring her back to end it. But don't look for her to write any
> more any time real soon,
>
> [Wonders how different the Callista trilogy would have been if Ann had written
> CotJ and PoT and Stackpool had written DS.]
Lemme see. Better? I don't know if either of them could do Callista, though, but I
think a KJA Dark Callie might work. In fact, the only person I can think of who can
definately write Callie is Shura4 (fanfic author).
> >> >> >Hear, Hear. You listening, Ann? Start talking to Del Rey right away!
> >> >>
> >> >> Her, Stackpole, Zhan and Allston should all sign up pronto!
> >>
> >> >Absolutely!
> >>
> >> Then it's agreed. Those four should be the ones Del Rey should sign up.
>
> >Absolutely. Unfortunately, the only person we've heard any of >negotiations
> with is
> >KJA (shudder) - for the 'Holocron' book. It'll either be his best work
> >(better than
> >the Planet Encyclopaedia, the best TotJ and the DE intro), or a stinker >that
> makes
> >Dark Apprentice look good.
>
> Dark Apprentice was a strange creation. A plotline that could have been handled
> in half the book that it was. ::shrugs:: I think JA3 would have made a better
> comic series than novels.
Perceptive. Scripted by Stackpole, with Plunkett art, it might be damn good. You
listening, Dark Horse
::Policrat raises a hand and reaches out with the Force::
Fine. I just suddenly thought one day that Winter would be the perfect match for
Luke. They just seem to fit together.
Don't we all :-)
But unless Zsinj had a second damaged SSD at Dathomir, and instead shifted his flag
to a damaged ISD, which he renamed Iron Fist for no good reason, it doesn't work.
> >> >> >> >> and Jeter's upcoming Bounty
> >> >> >> >> Hunter trilogy?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >I haven't read it yet :-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hits bookstores on June 1. Well, in So. Cal anyway. :;ducks::
> >> >>
> >> >> >Probably here sooner (we had I, Jedi a week before the rest of the
> >> world:->)
> >> >>
> >> >> I just hope they don't do it as a hardcover first. I'll be soooo p****d
> off
> >> if
> >> >> they do!
> >>
> >> >I think they might be....
> >>
> >> I for one would be very surprised if true. The X-Wings, BFC, and JA3 were
> all
> >> released in paperbacks first. Really no reason to go hardcover with this.
>
> >OK. Hope so!
>
> >[snip]
>
> You and me both, my friend. You and me both.
Makes 2 of us.
Ecosse, nul points.
Policrat'
policraticus
Mattemerso wrote:
It's not an open mike. It squadron comm. And besides, they're billed as the Rogues
in the "next week" box on the lettercol, and on the Dark Horse website. But this
ain't exactly a skirmish. There are (or were) two SDs, plus the de facto ruler of
the Empire. You're not going to take a chance you'll miss them.
> Anyone know how the got Cour. back in the first place?
Hmm. Let's see. Coruscant's planetary shields are down. The NR has the Lusankya,
the most powerful ship in space, which also has a repulsor-bed. Drop into
Coruscant's atmosphere, hover a few hundred yards above the surface, and wait for
Imps to start waving the white flag.
But of course, according to SoL, the Lusankya had been scrapped.
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > I think it's because KJA feels the need to EXPLAIN everything. Stackpole and Zahn just
> > MENTION it. What exactly were the Alderaanian Expeditions? What exactly is a "Sith
> > lanvarock"? And just what does a "come-up flector" do?
>
> Yes, and...but I want to know! What *is* a Sith lanvarock?! Damn that
> Stackpole! :)
I think it MIGHT be a double-ended lightsaber.
> > I can never decide whether KJA's novels are over-worked or under-worked. They just never
> > seem quite... finished. It's as if he either can't work out how to solve the situations
> > he sets up (unlike Zahn, for instance, who is the most ingenious SW plotter of the lot)
> > or he's rewritten them to death.
>
> IIRC, a letter from one Elwyn Chow in a TotJ comic mentioned that KJA's
> work seems less polished, less refined than the work of Zahn and co. I
> would have to agree. 'Under-worked' seems to apply more in this case.
> Zahn is the best at overall plotting, but he's weaker on the fine
> details of writing - he repeats himself a lot. I cringe every time Han's
> lip 'twists'.
Or Thrawn cocks a blue-black eyebrow. But this ain't great literature. Just ripping good
yarns.
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > > SotP is great. Haven't read 'I, Jedi' yet. It'n not on general release
> > > yet here, and the price in the import shops is beyond my means at the
> > > moment. PoT was a disappointment for me as well. I thought CotJ was
> > > different but interesting, however I found myself skimming through PoT.
> >
> > IMHO, CotJ was a lot of buildup with an utter anti-climax. If they'd killed Callista....
>
> I liked Callista whole lot more when she inhabited the Eye of Palpatine.
> As a regular
> character she was, well, boring. Mara's a lot better for Luke - if he
> pulls his whining farmboy routine on her, she'll take his head off. :)
I think the problem was that they gave her to KJA to use in Darksaber. The Callie in PoT is
quite different - when she actually appears.
> RE: Daala -
>
> > True. My main problems were: (a) she was characterised completely differently from KJA;
> > (b) she abandonned the Empire for no more reason than to did Hambly out of a plot-hole;
> > (c) they just let this war criminal walk off into the sunset with Liegius Vorn!
>
> I didn't think she was that different. And given some time to reflect on
> her 'brilliant strategies', I think some self-criticism was probably in
> order.
Since when. At the end of Darksaber, they still had a pretty big fleet (okay, they'd lost the
Knight Hammer, but...) and Daala would never just cop out like that. And in PoT she blames
everyone but herself and gives the impression of being competent :-)
> Her desertion from the Empire was a cop-out,
That's not something KJA's Daala would do.
> but I definately agree with c).
>
> "Sure you murdered thousands, if not millions of innocent people, but
> we're forgiving people."
>
> Maybe they can't handle the idea of a war cromes trial in SW. The end of
> TBW suggested that Fliry (sp) Vorru was going to undergo such a trial,
> but it hasn't been mentioned yet.
I don't think any of the authors knows what to do (and remember, there are probably 1 or 2
Grand Admirals in the NR nick).
> > > Admiral Drayson is a devious little beggar!
> > >
> > > Politics abound!
> >
> > That was what I was trying to say :-)
>
> Yes. Actually, one of my favorite bits was the characterisation of
> Drayson. He goes from mediocre Admiral to 'crafty head of super-secret
> intelligence unit'. How sneaky can you get? :)
Shame about the continuity, though.
> > > > Bakura. Gaeriel really p****s me off. I'm sorry. That's all there is to it. A great
> > > > book spoiled. That, and the aspersions cast against Tarkin's taste in uniforms.
> > >
> > > No problem with the book, but not at the top of my 'SW read-again pile'.
> >
> > I'm sorry, I just found it... irritating.
>
> Anything in particular? Gaeriel was no prob - I knew she and Luke
> weren't getting hitched, so she was largely irrelevant to me. The
> governer, Nereus (?) was a bit weak as a villain, but I liked the
> Ssi-Ruuk. My biggest annoyance is not the novel itself, - it's that
> no-one has followed up on it.
True. Perhaps LFL didn't want to use the 'bellicose lizard-men' plot for some reason. I wonder
what it could be... :-)
> > > The error can be fixed - Zsinj is extremely sneaky, after all. The
> > > Hapans were great - you can imagine Han's hackles rising when he's
> > > around them.
> >
> > I just found them a bit un-SW. I don't believe the Empire wouldn't have just crushed
> > them.
>
> Maybe, but no more so than the Mon Cals or whatever. The Empire could
> have put a large task force over Calamari in days, if not weeks, and
> squashed them. Same problem with the Goodwin comics and the 'Yavin
> blockade'. It was implied the rebels remained on Yavin 4 for weeks after
> SW4 - surely the Empire could have moved its blockade fleet in and
> trashed the place? After all, there was no substatial fleet presence -
> the comics show some freighters, Nebulon-B frigates and Corvettes, but
> that's about it.
I always thought the Empire DID trash Calamari at least three times (WEG, DE, JA3). And as for
Yavin, don't forget, the Rebels had just destroyed the Death Star. I doubt they would have
sent in many more ships without checking exactly how the big ball had gone up. Moreover, the
Alliance did have those Assault Frigates - which everyone except Zahn has always forgotten
about. A dozen of them could give a SD squadron a hard time.
> > > I liked the first TotJ series (now called Knights of the Old Republic),
> > > and 'Dark Lords of the Sith'. The rest were ok, but 'Fall of the Sith
> > > Empire' annoyed me. Like Anderson's take on the Galactic Empire post-DE,
> > > the Sith Empire is defeated far too easily and quickly.
> >
> > I think it's the usual KJA problem of a brilliant premise he can't solve. It holds the
> > interest at the start, and you think 'how's he going to solve it?' until you see him cop
> > out in the last few pages. Zahn is at the other end of the scale inasmuch as you have no
> > idea what's going to happen - until it does.
>
> Yes. Even before the 'Fall of the Sith Empire' came out I sent a letter
> to DHC querying how they would pull it off. And of course, they didn't.
> It was completely unconvincing.
Should you have been surprised? Massassi, anyone?
Policrat'
policraticus
Ian Roney wrote:
> policraticus wrote:
>
> > Calls him 'Chimaera's captain' (small c), but in Commodores and Admirals can certainly command single > ships in SW.
>
> So the captain effectively becomes the XO, so what does the XO become?
> May, you must be really pissed as an XO if a Grand Admiral comes aboard.
> All the command staff take one step down. :)
I doubt a GA would command just one ship. Think about the Executor. You have Vader, Piett, the 'fleet commanders' we see on the bridge at Endor, and
probably a lot more 'staff' officers outwith the chain of command.On an SD, the XO probably holds captain's rank anyway - eg the Virulence in TBW - as do
the TIE commander (Group Captain) and the chief engineer. The military forces are under a General! For comparison think about the Red October (fictional,
I know, but a good example). IIRC, the Captain, Political Officer, Chief Engineer and XO were all 'captains' by rank.
> > > The RS novels mention the Navy is disgruntled at being led by Imp
> > > Intelligence - perhaps although Isard ruled the Empire, the Navy
> > > insisted on handling its own affairs.
> >
> > That's not the issue. In RS, Isard has wiped out the Ubiqutorate (I.I. high command) to assume sole > control of the Empire, but Thrawn still has
> > an Ubiqutorate working for him. Implies a schism between Coruscant Empire (Isard kills Ubiqutorate, > takes power) and Pellaeon/Thrawn Empire
> > (Ubiqutorate survives - as best-organised part of Imperial power structure according to WEG).
>
> I didn't see any reference to the demise if the Ubiqtorate under Isard.
> Do you have any reference page for this?
It's implied rather than said. Isard is operating as Director without reference to any Ubiqutorate, and I doubt they would have approved of her putsch if
they could have stopped her:
She deftly undercut the bureaucrats she had used to vanquish
Pestage and took control of the Empire for herself. While
she maintains her title of Director of Intelligence, and has
suggested she is holding the planet in stewardship, there is
no doubt that she is in full control (XWWG, p.33)
but in Zahn, there's a fully-functioning Ubiqutorate that seems to have come through the previous five years better than most of the rest of the Empire.
It's just another continuity mess, but the '2 Empires' theory is the only way it can be explained.
> OK, this beginning to make some sense (TWO Empires, buncha warlords -
> Zsinj by far the most powerful and threatening, sealed Deep Core). My
> beef then is that the RS novels *never* clarify any of this. As you say
> it is all implied and involves reading between the lines. Whenever the
> Rogues talk about the Empire, it is just that...*the* Empire. Allston
> makes the same distinction - Warlords, NR, Empire. Perhaps at this point
> it has reverted to 'one' Empire again - what will become Thrawn's
> Empire.
I think it's more a case of a lot of Imperial local officers - Moffs, Generals, bureacrats, etc - who really don't know who to turn to after Endor (In
Planet of Twilight, p.21, "Moff Getelles still rules the Antemeridian sector 'in the name of the Emperor,'" about 9yrs. post-Endor ). Only a few have the
guts and strength to declare themselves absolute rulers in their own right (eg Kaine, Zsinj, Harrsk, Derricote, Terradoc). The rest remain, somewhot
amorphously, 'the Empire'. At first, the interim administration of Pestage provides continuity, but on its collapse, Isard and Pellaeon emerge as
alternative sources of authority within the Empire. Isard controls Coruscant, Pellaeon has the one major fleet that seems reasonably intact (and also
probably the support of the Ubiqutorate, for rather obvious reasons). They aren't in conflict, and don't have any formal border between them, so the NR
regards the Empire as generally united, but they are in effect independant of each other, exercising authority through their forces; Pellaeon's fleet, or
Isard's - or the threat of either - should keep anyone in line.
> Idle thoughts - who was holding KDY at this point? A warlord? It can't
> be Isard. By the later books she was having to beg, borrow and steal to
> get a lousy Interdictor. The taking of Kuat would be a good story. (Have
> you seen the description of Kuat in "Platt's Starport Guide"? The place
> is a fortress).
According to WEG, one Admiral Roek, with the SSD Aggressor, was sent to guard the Corellian sector after Endor, and the mentions in RS of a SD called
Aggressor and of Isard using an otherwise unidentified SSD (can't be Iron Fist or Lusyanka) to strongarm Derricote suggest that he (and Kuat, Fondor,
Gyndine and the rest of the Sector) were still loyal - though it could all be coincidence.
Also, given that the Corellian Diktat was always semi-independant, and the Kuati nobility probably fairly independant from the Diktat, it wouldn't
surprise me if they really didn't need to answer to anyone unless a SSD showed up. Given the defences of KDY, and its capacity for producing SDs and
Golans, I'd imagine it's probably still fairly independant even after the Corellian Trilogy. Both sides need their ships, but they probably don't want to
aggravate anyone too much. Also, by the time Isard's begging Interdictors off Derricote, she's probably too far off and too poor to buy them new (and
also, where'd she get a crew from? Thyferran conscripts?)
> The captain of the Lusankya was considering the state of the 'Iceheart
> Empire' in TBW and was annoyed that Thyferra did not support a TIE
> production facility. He also implies that there were many such
> facilities scattered across the galaxy, which seems to support the K-Mac
> assertion of many (as opposed to few) naval yards.
Production facility, not shipyard. Difference, to use a WWII example, between a Spitfire factory and a dockyard building battleships and aircraft
carriers.
> > I don't think either of them can afford to accept the fact that they're in opposition. Pellaeon might > not recognize Isard's political authority,
> > but both Pellaeon and Isard essentially rule by projection of force. Isard sits on Coruscant and sends > out SDs to try and hold the Core together,
> > Pellaeon roams the Mid Rim with his battlefleet. I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to argue > with either.
>
> Interesting, then, that they go after Isard first. I would imagine that
> taking the Core is more difficult than taking the Mid Rim. After all,
> the Alliance has a broad base of popular support in the Rim territories,
> and the Imp fleets would be spread more thinly. I can only think of two
> motivations for going for the 'hard target' first:
I think the NR is probably too busy consolidating its hold on the Rim regions it already holds to worry about what's going on on the other side of the
Galaxy. Coruscant is probably closer than Pellaeon, and would open up the Core to the Republic.
> a) Isard's power base was unstable. Some of the Imps realise she is a
> loony. The Navy resents being ordered around by a Intelligence
> director.
> b) The reason given in the novels. Capture of Coruscant legitimises the
> Alliance to a greater degree. Coruscant is the political and
> social heart of the galaxy and has been for thousands of years. It
> confers great authority on those who control it.
Basically both reasons work together. Whereas Pellaeon has a fleet of his own, Isard depends on her control of Coruscant to give her the 'legitimacy' to
control fleet units in the Core. Take it away from her, and the NR inherits that legitimacy, while the Empire loses its centre. If it wasn't for the
Lusankya, Isard would have been finished after the loss of Coruscant. Also, the NR may not realise that Pellaeon's acting independantly of her.
> >
> > s'pose. But that still leaves eleven of the Empire's top officers MIA!
>
> Ok. Now all we need is a story covering what happened to them.
>
> > Would be good. Stackpole has said Baron Fel's the only Imp he's interested in writing, but I'm sure > there's someone out there who'd be happy to
> > do the work! Are you listening, Dark Horse?
>
> Hell, I'd do it for free! (shuffles uncomfortably) 'Course, I haven't
> got anything published yet, so that kinda shoots me down in flames.
>
> A decent Imperial story would be excellent. You could do a follow a
> young, ambitious TIE pilot as he climbs the ranks, or a more
> politically-oriented story with SD officers. Personally, I'd like to see
> a 'Hunt for Red October' style story.
Would be good, and I'm sure there are people out there who'd do it. Hey, hold on, it's already been done. It was called Crimson Empire, and IMHO, it was
damn good - and Dark Horse's best-selling comic at the time.
> > Make that 3 categories:
> >
> (snip NR fleet breakdown)
>
> A quick question. Are you cheating? :) Do you have all the books with
> you? I have to travel halfway across Perth to Uni by bus, so lugging the
> novels with me is kinda difficult.
>
> If you are doing all this off the top of your head, I'm impressed.
It's a combination. The information I remember off the top of my head, then if I need a precise ref, I look it up in the books I have here - just about
everything after PoT - or I use the novel tech references on Curtis Saxton's page:
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~saxton/starwars/novels/
which I try to credit when I use it. But as for the comics, I'm using my memory.
> > I think Kennedy had a fair idea of what he wanted. After all, he designed the E-wing, Howlrunner and A-9 > Vigilance, not to mention the Eclipse,
> > and the Avenger-class SSD that appears several times in DE,
>
> 'Avenger-class' SSD? Was this the 'Allegiance' over Calamari? I don't
> have the DESB.
That's the one. There are also Cam Kennedy design-sketches for the class, and others appear as (a) command ship at Byss and (b) escort for the Eclipse.
> > The Victory-III is about the ONLY 'new' ship to appear regularly in DE that doesn't have clear > evidence of 'class' design, and the presence
> > of these ships in Darksaber (built from new) suggests thay Kennedy and KJA had a little chat. I'm not > counting the massive carriers at Byss,
> > which seem to be one-offs (though at least two of them do share the same design).
>
> The ships in orbit over Byss are unsual. They don't appear anywhere else
> in SW, and they remain largely unidentified.
>
> Curtis Saxton's web page
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~saxton/starwars/warships.html does a
> breakdown of the ships seen there, and argues that they are designs
> intermediate between the SSD/Executor-class and common
> Imperial/Imperator' models. (I don't know if you have seen his pages. A
> lot of quite convincing material regarding various SW ship and science
> details, esp regarding the SD being just that - a 'destroyer', rather
> than than the 'battleship' it has become in most SW fiction. If you
> haven't seen his pages, I strongly recommend them.)
As I said above, I've seen Saxton, think his is about the best SW webpage out there, and try and credit him when I use him directly. As to the
'destroyer', it's one argument I'm not convinced by, and I have my own theory as to the origin of the term.
Basically, the Alliance uses the term 'frigate' a lot, to describe every large capital ship short of a SD: medical frigate = hospital ship; trade frigate
= merchant ship (in the early drafts and for the Rand Ecliptic in the cut Biggs scene); headquarters frigate = flagship; assault frigate = dreadnaught.
Now this seems to be slang, probably because smugglers and the sort who make up the Alliance have probably tended to run into 'proper' frigates - which
would be used to patrol against smugglers and pirates - a lot more than other capital ships for many centuries. Now the Star Destroyer was bigger than
any 'frigate' in this broad, imprecise sense, and obviously, the new class needed a new name. Since 'destroyer' as a term for ships between 'proper
frigates' and 'crusiers' is hardly ever used in SW (only by the Bakurans in the Corellian trilogy, IIRC), it's a fair bet that it was pretty obsolete,
so, to describe ships that outclassed any 'frigate' (in the broad sense of 'large capital ship') 'destroyer' would be an appropriate term, just like
'corvette' and indeed 'frigate' were revived in WWII for escorts. Hence, Walex Blissex named the Victory a 'Star Destroyer'.
On a similar note, the much maligned phrase 'Super Star Destroyer' does have a real analogy in the WWI term 'superdreadnaught'.
> > > Thet did seem to use 'swarm' tactics in Darksabre, though I didn't like
> > > it much - they are still big ships, and KJA didn't give them sufficient
> > > 'weight'. They sounded more like fighter squadrons than heavy cruisers.
> >
> > I think the VSD tactics in Darksaber make a lot of sense. Basically, it's Blitzkreig.
>
> Oh, the tactics are sound, but I didn't like Anderson's descrptive
> style. Like in his JA3, the cap ships didn't have the feeling of
> 'weight' that they had in the films.
true enough. Apart from the Shockwave, they all seemed lightweight. Even the Knight Hammer. Whereas with Zahn, an ISD is a real heavyweight. I have the
same problem with Stackpole, btw. Except at the end of TBW, his ISDs always seem weak compared to half a dozen X-wings.
> > > Wasn't 'Shockwave' described as being larger than the other ISD's in
> > > orbit? Some new design, I suppose.
> >
> > Either Shockwave was an Avenger-class SSD, or possibly Harrsk was producing mostly the scaled-down > ISD-IIIs of DE.
>
> I think Harrsk was producing mostly ISD's, which is why Teradoc used the
> VSD approach to overwhelm him. And what about the death of Kratas. Did
> that seem a little pointless to you?
Yup.
> > After EE, even with Byss destroyed, the Empire's still in the most powerful position since Endor.
>
> Not according to KJA. The Empire loses half the galaxy within a few
> weeks. Which is ridiculous.
Hey, who ever said continuity mattered?
> > Fair enough. Then, of course, Crimson Empire goes and muddles it even further by introducing a Major as > a planetary governor!
>
> Could we pass that off as a military prefect?
Maybe. But then, Stradley gave Wessel a planet once, too.
Policrat'