The Books again
Norm
Anncrispin
Very wise of you, Norm. Reading can be dangerous. You know what they say
about pens and swords...
-Ann C. Crispin
John & Deborah Proctor
In article <199805310155...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
Norm,
What got me re-interested in Star Wars was the novels. Who are kidding?
Ann's trilogy about Han Solo was exceptionally written. I felt she
portrayed Han's character exactly, as well as providing a lot of
background about him.
Maybe you need to read some more...
Deborah Proctor
call...@ix.netcom.com
Phoenix, AZ
Dark Lord Karno Dal
Anncrispin wrote in message
<199805310155...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Very wise of you, Norm. Reading can be dangerous. You know what they say
>about pens and swords...
Not to mention actually forming one's own opinion about things. I mean it's
just so much easier to read someone else's opinions and adopt them. That
way you never have to think for youself.
>-Ann C. Crispin
By the way Ann, I read your books last week and I loved them. The money I
gave you was money well spent. :)
May the darkness be with you...
Dark Lord Karno Dal
si...@lords.com
Anisa
> Very wise of you, Norm. Reading can be dangerous. You know what they say
> about pens and swords...
>
> -Ann C. Crispin
Touché!
--
Hace mucho tiempo en una galaxia lejana, muy lejana...
Norm
My email to that web page!
I just want to say that, I am really enjoying your articles on Star Wars,so
far I have read the Emperor which I totally agree with you on, and the
Failing of the S.W. novels. I only read one novel Splinter of the Minds Eye
in the 70's.I prefer not to read anymore novels because I am afraid the will
cheapen the Trilogy. Keep up the good work!
Norm
Norm,
Thanks for the kind words. Glad you like our Star Wars selections so
much.
Your reasoning for not wanting to read the SW novels is most wise.
They have had the exact effect on me that you mention...they do
indeed cheapen the trilogy. I personally don't even want to
acknoweldge that they take place in the same continuity as the films.
Thanks for the letter!
MIKEO
Anisa wrote in message ...
Tommy Maguire
Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things should
be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central characters
from the original trilogy will have created other images to which everyone
will become familiar. This is where continuity comes in to play. Will
George tow the line with the novels or will he disregard anything we have
read in favour of his ideal vision ? It is like any transition from book to
film. Everyone who has read, for example, Jurassic Park before the movie
release will tell you the book was far better, and vice versa. As with
Patriot Games, I read the novel months before the film release and was
dissapointed with the film simply because of the distortion of the story to
accomodate the film. And I would fear for a similar happening should I
become involved in the novels. I don't believe that GL will use the Zahn
trilogy as a basis for a sequel. Therefore we will no doubt see an
alternative storyline. But does anyone think that a sequel would not be as
enjoyable if it did not stick to the likes of Zahn's vision ? We are human
by default and if we like something we dont want it to change, thats
natural. And I am not knocking or criticising Ann Crispin and all the other
authors out there. In fact their writing must be of the highest standard to
attract so much acclaim among such die hard fans. And for that I have
nothing but admiration for them.
fresca
Tommy Maguire wrote:
> Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
> any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
> already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
> trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things should
> be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central characters
> from the original trilogy will have created other images to which everyone
> will become familiar.
Unfortunately, maybe, it is human nature to anticipate how things will be. The
prequel audience will, no doubt, walk into the theater with their own idea of
what should and shouldn't be in the them. This goes whether the audience read
the books or not. At least with the novels, there will be a group of us with a
somewhat similiar idea of what should be. And, BTW, since Lucas supposedly read
all of the books, he will probably be influenced by them to some degree. It
would be difficult for him not to be. There is also the fact that Lucasfilms
has a list of do's and don'ts on characters, so most the characters from the
books should have fallen within what Lucas intends with them. However, being a
creative force, Lucas could very well change his minds about some of this
guidelines. The question is whether Lucas will, or will not, work within the
same constraints that he put other authors in. Which, considering SW IS his
baby, is his prerogative.
> It is like any transition from book to
> film. Everyone who has read, for example, Jurassic Park before the movie
> release will tell you the book was far better, and vice versa.
I read the book after seeing the movie, but before seeing the sequel. You do
have a very good point. The book was better than the movie, but the movie's
alternate ending from the book made the sequel difficult to watch. I don't know
how different the sequel movie was from the sequel book, but I was not moved to
read that book.
> As with
> Patriot Games, I read the novel months before the film release and was
> dissapointed with the film simply because of the distortion of the story to
> accomodate the film.
This is why I try not to read the book before the movie.
> And I would fear for a similar happening should I
> become involved in the novels. I don't believe that GL will use the Zahn
> trilogy as a basis for a sequel.
I really don't expect to see the sequel. I believe that Lucas had an idea for
one, but let it slide too long. That is the only reason I can think of for him
not allowing the books until 1991.
> Therefore we will no doubt see an
> alternative storyline. But does anyone think that a sequel would not be as
> enjoyable if it did not stick to the likes of Zahn's vision ?
I'm thinking that the only way Lucas can make a sequel, and make it his own,
would be to make it about Leia's grandchildren. Otherwise, the characters have
already been drawn up for him.
> We are human
> by default and if we like something we dont want it to change, thats
> natural.
Usually, but sometimes change is preferable. The film version of 'The Spy Who
Loved Me" was radically different from the book, and was all the better for it.
Then there's the 'Lethal Weapons" movies. The girlfriend is always supposed to
die, and I believe was originally filmed that way, but Rene Russo created a
strong character and we wanted to see her survive.
> And I am not knocking or criticising Ann Crispin and all the other
> authors out there. In fact their writing must be of the highest standard to
> attract so much acclaim among such die hard fans. And for that I have
> nothing but admiration for them.
Not necessarilty. I believe that Star Trek the Next Generation is total
garbage, but Star Trek fans were still attracted. The need to continue was so
great that not only did they embrace the fundamental changes in
characterization, but they went on to reject the original concepts. Finally the
original character of the show came back with Voyager, but so great was this
desire for 'space opera' that Voyager is slowly metamorphizing into a lesser
show.
Anisa
In article <6kscq8$nbi$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>, "Tommy Maguire"
<tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
> any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
> already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
> trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things should
> be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central characters
> from the original trilogy will have created other images to which everyone
> will become familiar. This is where continuity comes in to play. Will
> George tow the line with the novels or will he disregard anything we have
> read in favour of his ideal vision ?
First, I don't think there will be any sequels, simply because GL is
getting too old. Second, he stated many times back in the '80's (Sorry; I
can't quote any sources offhand) that if he made the sequels they would be
about "Luke's offspring." Since he clearly said "offspring," not
"children," I took that as an indication that he might well mean
grandchildren or even successive generations. If that's so, the novels
would have an extremely limited impact on sequels.
Frankly, I think he's abandoned the idea of sequels because he's
incorporated those ideas into the prequels. The sequels would likely have
been about the reestablishment of the Jedi order and what role they play
in society, but it looks as if the prequels are going to be pretty much
the story of the Jedi. He doesn't need to tell a similar story twice. RoTJ
is a nice ending to the whole saga-- Anakin is redeemed, he and Obi-Wan
are reunited, and we have two potential Jedi left alive to carry on the
tradition. Luke has lost his father, but he's found his sister, and we
(or I, at least) get the feeling that he's about to make the transition
from learner to teacher. That's all we really need to know about these
people; the circle is complete.
The novels, IMHO, are frosting. They're fun, but they don't really impact
the main saga. If there were film sequels, they would have to be about a
later generation, because the *mythical* part of the story of Luke's
generation is completed.
Mike
Norm wrote:
>
> I think i'll pass on the books too,after reading this!
> http://pages.prodigy.com/crossover/star8.htm
Christ, man, read the books and decide for yourself!
--
-Mike
Unofficial Master of the Twist
Mike's word of the Day: "Undulate"
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policraticus
Anisa wrote:
> The novels, IMHO, are frosting. They're fun, but they don't really impact
> the main saga. If there were film sequels, they would have to be about a
> later generation, because the *mythical* part of the story of Luke's
> generation is completed.
No! It's only half-done. To take the Arthurian parallel, we've got as far as Badon
- at most. There's the story of Luke's death to do as well.
Policrat'
Douglas A. Hurstell
Ditto that Ann, 'cept I read all three in two days :)
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Dark Lord Karno Dal wrote in message <6kqrjq$ke2$1...@camel0.mindspring.com>...
>
>Anncrispin wrote in message
><199805310155...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>Very wise of you, Norm. Reading can be dangerous. You know what they say
>>about pens and swords...
>
Norm
Thats why he may not do episode 7,8 & 9 because the fans would hate him if
they are different than the books, and will feel ripped off, or he would
have alter his vision and set it far in the future!
Tommy Maguire wrote in message <6kscq8$nbi$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
>any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
>already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
>trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things
should
>be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central
characters
>from the original trilogy will have created other images to which everyone
>will become familiar. This is where continuity comes in to play. Will
>George tow the line with the novels or will he disregard anything we have
>read in favour of his ideal vision ? It is like any transition from book
to
>film. Everyone who has read, for example, Jurassic Park before the movie
>release will tell you the book was far better, and vice versa. As with
>Patriot Games, I read the novel months before the film release and was
>dissapointed with the film simply because of the distortion of the story to
>accomodate the film. And I would fear for a similar happening should I
>become involved in the novels. I don't believe that GL will use the Zahn
>trilogy as a basis for a sequel. Therefore we will no doubt see an
>alternative storyline. But does anyone think that a sequel would not be as
>enjoyable if it did not stick to the likes of Zahn's vision ? We are human
>by default and if we like something we dont want it to change, thats
>natural. And I am not knocking or criticising Ann Crispin and all the
Norm
If the prequels make enuff money we will see 7,8,9,10,11,12 etc.
Anisa wrote in message ...
>In article <6kscq8$nbi$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>, "Tommy Maguire"
><tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
>> any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
>> already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
>> trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things
should
>> be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central
characters
>> from the original trilogy will have created other images to which
everyone
>> will become familiar. This is where continuity comes in to play. Will
>> George tow the line with the novels or will he disregard anything we have
>> read in favour of his ideal vision ?
>
>First, I don't think there will be any sequels, simply because GL is
>getting too old. Second, he stated many times back in the '80's (Sorry; I
>can't quote any sources offhand) that if he made the sequels they would be
>about "Luke's offspring." Since he clearly said "offspring," not
>"children," I took that as an indication that he might well mean
>grandchildren or even successive generations. If that's so, the novels
>would have an extremely limited impact on sequels.
>
>Frankly, I think he's abandoned the idea of sequels because he's
>incorporated those ideas into the prequels. The sequels would likely have
>been about the reestablishment of the Jedi order and what role they play
>in society, but it looks as if the prequels are going to be pretty much
>the story of the Jedi. He doesn't need to tell a similar story twice. RoTJ
>is a nice ending to the whole saga-- Anakin is redeemed, he and Obi-Wan
>are reunited, and we have two potential Jedi left alive to carry on the
>tradition. Luke has lost his father, but he's found his sister, and we
>(or I, at least) get the feeling that he's about to make the transition
>from learner to teacher. That's all we really need to know about these
>people; the circle is complete.
>
>The novels, IMHO, are frosting. They're fun, but they don't really impact
>the main saga. If there were film sequels, they would have to be about a
>later generation, because the *mythical* part of the story of Luke's
>generation is completed.
>
Anncrispin
> And, BTW, since Lucas supposedly read
>all of the books, he will probably be influenced by them to some degree. It
>would be difficult for him not to be.
George Lucas, according to all I've heard, does not read the Star Wars novels.
He does read (and sign off on) a short synopsis of each project, but that's
only 1-2 pages per book, hardly enough to "influence" his filmmaking concepts.
I just can't believe people keep getting in such a lather about a series of
books...read them or don't, who cares? I make about 12 cents per book anyhow,
so if Norm never reads The Han Solo Trilogy, I'm out a grand total of 36 cents.
Big whoop.
There are hundreds of thousands of fans reading the books, and most of them
just read them and never give a thought to continuity, literary merit, canon,
or anything else. The folks here on RASSM are but the teeniest tip of the
iceberg insofar as the total number of readers buying Star Wars books.
That's something many RASSMers seem to lose sight of. As far as any given Star
Wars publishing program goes, the "die-hard" RASSM-type fans are the smallest
minority of their total audience. Same goes for Star Trek. The bottom line
for a publisher is not how many fans LIKE the books, but how many BUY them.
And I've had plenty of examples of fans who seem to detest every book
published, yet admit to buying, reading, and hating every darned one. Wrong
strategy if they hope to influence Bantam or Del Rey. The only way fans can
send a message to the Star Wars publisher(s) is by voting with their dollars.
Money is everything to publishers.
Best,
-Ann C. Crispin
fresca
Rich Handley wrote:
> fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
> >Not necessarilty. I believe that Star Trek the Next Generation is total
> >garbage, but Star Trek fans were still attracted. The need to continue was so
> >great that not only did they embrace the fundamental changes in
> >characterization, but they went on to reject the original concepts. Finally the
> >original character of the show came back with Voyager, but so great was this
> >desire for 'space opera' that Voyager is slowly metamorphizing into a lesser
> >show.
>
> I must seriously disagree with you. I'm a fan of the original series
> from way back, and I think that Voyager is as far from what
> Roddenberry ever envisioned as could possibly be. It's a TERRIBLE
> show, with lame writing, even lamer acting, and the very premise of
> the show is no different than Gilligan's Island. Voyager should never
> have come to light. ST:TNG, on the other hand, was developed by
> Roddenberry and carried on the same ideals of the original. While I
> respect your opinion, I completely disagree with it. Voyager isn't
> metamorphizing into a lesser show -- it has always been a lesser show,
> IMHO.
I was thinking mainly of characters. Both Kirk and Janeway are standup Captains.
Picard is a concensus freak who depends too much on the services of an empath and a
brownnoser to make decisions. Also Picard in to situations with preconceived notions
of people. I point to his treatment of Q, in relation to Janeways and Kirk's
reaction to Terall's (sp?). Only Picard talks down to aliens when he incounters
them, no one Q always says he needs to teach Picard things, he's clueless.
fresca
Norm wrote:
> If the prequels make enuff money we will see 7,8,9,10,11,12 etc.
Using that logical, we should have already seen 7, 8, and 9. It's all up to
Lucas' tenacity. There his baby and he wants a hand in the deliveries, but he
also wants to do other things. I think the authorization came from he
realization that he can only do so much. He wont live forever, so if we seen
anything past 9, it will be because his family sold out.
Tommy Maguire
I did not mean that the fans would hate GL should he not keep in synch with
the novels. What I meant was that there are many, many SW fans who are also
big fans of the books. The books have no doubt built up a story that most
of their readers have come to know as the lives of Luke, Leia, Han etc after
the original movies. If GL was to make his sequels and run off on a
different tangent from which the books follow, a lot of people are going to
say "Hey ! whats that all about ?". We all demand continuity, as we will
from the prequels based on what we have seen/read already. Of course it
makes no difference if you have read the books or not, you still have your
own visions. But the books give an altogether solid view and this is far
stronger in the mind than empty daydreams. Also mentioned in this thread
was that the sequels may centre around Luke's kids. From what I understand
in other threads Luke isn't what you would call the family man. In respect
to the books would a sequel not be more plausable centred round the Jedi
twins to which Han and Leia are parents ? And what if we never see
charcters such as Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn etc who have read so much
about in other threads. The impact of these characters have warranted their
characters to be used in the computer game tie-ins. Surely if these and
other characters have such an impact on people through the written word,
they should certainly be included in the sequels. But again, if the
characters people have already read about are "misrepresented" on film, this
would almost certainly reflect poorly on any sequel.
Norm wrote in message ...
MrinCodex
The way that I understand it is that EP 7,8+9 are going to take place at a
time when Han and Leia's kids are all grown up.
Any of the original characters will be very old or even dead by then. I
cannot remeber where I heard/read that, but it was a long while ago (about the
time that Zhan's first SW book came out)
MrinCodex
bl...@popstar.com
In article <gFzc1.362$E82.3...@news.internetmci.com>,
"Norm" <stor...@internetmcinospam.com> wrote:
>
> Thats why he may not do episode 7,8 & 9 because the fans would hate him if
> they are different than the books, and will feel ripped off, or he would
> have alter his vision and set it far in the future!
Oh, I don't know about that ...
AGREE - that it would be very weird to see a future that was somehow different
to the books.
DISAGREE - that the fans would hate him. C'mon, that's *us* you're talking
about. Are we really going to hate George because he churns out another 3
GREAT movies, that blow away the novels to some extent???
But hey, consider this: Parts 7, 8 & 9 WOULD NOT affect many of the novels,
(I'm thinking of the Han Solo books, Rogue Squadron books, probably Truce at
Bakura ... actually, most of the damn things!!!)
George Lucas has said that if he does 7, 8 & 9 it would probably be set
waaaaay in the future and might deal, "with whatever Luke Skywalker is up to"
(to paraphrase what I read).
So, I don't think that the sequel trilogy would necessarily be forced to blow
away the books (and cause us all to hate George, according to you).
For fun, let's look at some of the plot developments in the books that might
be affected:
Han and Leia together? Well, considering Harrison Ford probably wouldn't want
to act in the sequels, and Carrie Fisher would rather direct them, (you go
girl!) you could have story where Luke and other characters might allude to
their being married, but you don't necessarily have to show this on screen.
Grand Admiral Thrawn. Sure! He can totally exist and the books can be
completely canon, if we're talking about a story set 20 years after him.
Infact, has it struck you as weird that the books never go too far into the
future??? Perhaps this is to allow the books to be relatively canon, and give
George a number of years, (let's say 30) after ROTJ to create a new trilogy
without disrupting the balance of power.
Having said that, all I'm saying in this post is that you can have sequels
without affecting the novels ... and even if the sequels did affect the novels
in some way, I don't think we're going to get too cut about it.
The books, after all, are an accessory to the movies - not vice-versa.
Cheers,
Rob
--
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PC Week [Australia] PC Magazine [Australia]
Ph:+61 2 9936 8693 Fax:+61 2 9955 8871
www.zdnet.com.au/pcweek www.zdnet.com.au/pcm
> Tommy Maguire wrote in message <6kscq8$nbi$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
> >Just to throw my tuppence worth in about the books. IMO the enjoyment of
> >any sequels, if GL ever gets round to them, will be distorted by what has
> >already been read in the novels. Example, anyone who has read the Zahn
> >trilogy will now have a picture built up in their minds of how things
> should
> >be. Or for that matter, any of the books relating to the central
> characters
> >from the original trilogy will have created other images to which everyone
> >will become familiar. This is where continuity comes in to play. Will
> >George tow the line with the novels or will he disregard anything we have
> >read in favour of his ideal vision ? It is like any transition from book
> to
> >film. Everyone who has read, for example, Jurassic Park before the movie
> >release will tell you the book was far better, and vice versa. As with
> >Patriot Games, I read the novel months before the film release and was
> >dissapointed with the film simply because of the distortion of the story to
> >accomodate the film. And I would fear for a similar happening should I
> >become involved in the novels. I don't believe that GL will use the Zahn
> >trilogy as a basis for a sequel. Therefore we will no doubt see an
> >alternative storyline. But does anyone think that a sequel would not be as
> >enjoyable if it did not stick to the likes of Zahn's vision ? We are human
> >by default and if we like something we dont want it to change, thats
> >natural. And I am not knocking or criticising Ann Crispin and all the
> other
> >authors out there. In fact their writing must be of the highest standard
> to
> >attract so much acclaim among such die hard fans. And for that I have
> >nothing but admiration for them.
> >
> >
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
bl...@popstar.com
In article <199806011554...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
>
> > And, BTW, since Lucas supposedly read
> >all of the books, he will probably be influenced by them to some degree.
It
> >would be difficult for him not to be.
>
> George Lucas, according to all I've heard, does not read the Star Wars
novels.
> He does read (and sign off on) a short synopsis of each project, but that's
> only 1-2 pages per book, hardly enough to "influence" his filmmaking
concepts.
That certainly makes sense, and follows what I've always thought.
> I just can't believe people keep getting in such a lather about a series of
> books...read them or don't, who cares? I make about 12 cents per book
anyhow,
> so if Norm never reads The Han Solo Trilogy, I'm out a grand total of 36
cents.
> Big whoop.
That's a big call, because that 36 cents is still money in your pocket.
Certainly a very honest response to a stupid post from Norm, however!
> There are hundreds of thousands of fans reading the books, and most of them
> just read them and never give a thought to continuity, literary merit,
canon,
> or anything else. The folks here on RASSM are but the teeniest tip of the
> iceberg insofar as the total number of readers buying Star Wars books.
> That's something many RASSMers seem to lose sight of. As far as any given
Star
> Wars publishing program goes, the "die-hard" RASSM-type fans are the
smallest
> minority of their total audience. Same goes for Star Trek. The bottom line
> for a publisher is not how many fans LIKE the books, but how many BUY them.
> And I've had plenty of examples of fans who seem to detest every book
> published, yet admit to buying, reading, and hating every darned one. Wrong
> strategy if they hope to influence Bantam or Del Rey. The only way fans can
> send a message to the Star Wars publisher(s) is by voting with their
> dollars.
I wouldn't say "many" RASSMers lose sight of that. I mean, if you're reading
the whole thread of some of these arguments, I would say an overwhelming
majority are a lot more "switched-on" over this issue, than you might think.
I mean, how big is RASSM, anyway? How many lurkers are there at any given
time? They're all reading this and forming opinions too - even if they aren't
posting themselves.
> Money is everything to publishers.
I know *precisely* where you're coming from! :)
Cheers,
Rob
> Best,
>
> -Ann C. Crispin
--
Rob Irwin - Journalist
PC Week [Australia] PC Magazine [Australia]
Ph:+61 2 9936 8693 Fax:+61 2 9955 8871
www.zdnet.com.au/pcweek www.zdnet.com.au/pcm
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
bl...@popstar.com
In article <EtuKH...@news2.new-york.net>,
Card...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
>
> Norm wrote:
> > I think i'll pass on the books too,after reading this!
> > http://pages.prodigy.com/crossover/star8.htm
>
> the books and, as a result, have decided not to read them? Why not
> read them yourselves and form your own opinions???
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Rich Handley (Card...@unix.asb.com)
I totally agree with Rich. Read the books for yourself!
However, having seen this Web page for the first time today, I have to say the
author raises some valid points - such as the "cookie cutter" way characters
are often portrayed in the novels and how you come to dread hearing familiar
lines, (eg: "I've got a bad feeling about this ...") when something with a
little more originality would have been 10x better.
Having said that, the books are nowhere near as bad as this guy makes out,
either. I occasionally have similiar feelings, or inklings towards what he is
talking about - the difference being, I take everything in life with a grain
of salt, and just because it's not my thing, doesn't make it any the less
valid or good.
You certainly won't see me creating a Web page to whinge and complain about
the novels, at any rate. On the whole, I really like them! You know, I would
much rather talk about a SW novel that I thought was really good - (Zahn's,
Stackpole's and Crispin's are GREAT examples) than the one I thought was
really bad.
As we're all trying to tell you: go and read these for yourself!!!
Cheers,
Rob
--
Rob Irwin - Journalist
PC Week [Australia] PC Magazine [Australia]
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could
produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the
Internet, we know this is not true."
- Robert Wilensky
Rick Baumhauer
For an even better examination of the State of the Star Wars Universe,
including the novels, look here:
http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/myth/myth.htm
Robert Brown presents a very thoughtful essay on what's right and wrong with
the various parts of the Universe, including some of the films' failings.
It's thought-provoking stuff, all the better if you've delved into
comparative mythology (Joseph Campbell is the best place to start). At the
very least, it might give you some new ideas on why Star Wars *works* at
such a deep level.
Rick
Bobby Cox
On 01 Jun 1998 15:54:11 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) jumped up
and announced to the general posting public:
>
>
>> And, BTW, since Lucas supposedly read
>>all of the books, he will probably be influenced by them to some degree. It
>>would be difficult for him not to be.
>
>George Lucas, according to all I've heard, does not read the Star Wars novels.
>He does read (and sign off on) a short synopsis of each project, but that's
>only 1-2 pages per book, hardly enough to "influence" his filmmaking concepts.
>
>I just can't believe people keep getting in such a lather about a series of
>books...read them or don't, who cares? I make about 12 cents per book anyhow,
>so if Norm never reads The Han Solo Trilogy, I'm out a grand total of 36 cents.
> Big whoop.
Well, you've got my 36 cents. Try not to spend it all in the one
place. :)
>There are hundreds of thousands of fans reading the books, and most of them
>just read them and never give a thought to continuity, literary merit, canon,
>or anything else. The folks here on RASSM are but the teeniest tip of the
>iceberg insofar as the total number of readers buying Star Wars books.
I'd hope so, otherwise this group would be flooded!
>That's something many RASSMers seem to lose sight of. As far as any given Star
>Wars publishing program goes, the "die-hard" RASSM-type fans are the smallest
>minority of their total audience. Same goes for Star Trek. The bottom line
>for a publisher is not how many fans LIKE the books, but how many BUY them.
>And I've had plenty of examples of fans who seem to detest every book
>published, yet admit to buying, reading, and hating every darned one. Wrong
>strategy if they hope to influence Bantam or Del Rey. The only way fans can
>send a message to the Star Wars publisher(s) is by voting with their dollars.
>
>Money is everything to publishers.
I'm gonna jump into this debate now...
The topic seems to be 'Will George Lucas ignore the novels for the
remainder of the movies?' Personally, I think he'll incorporate some
of the major elements, such as the Jedi Academy, GA Thrawn, and a
couple of others, but will ditch the minor stuff. Besides half of it
is contradictory, anyway.
But if he totally ignores them... *shrug* I won't be terribly
heartbroken. I'll go see 'em, and if they're any good, I'll fork out
for the videos. Alright, I admit it... I'm a Star Wars junkie :)
*glazed look appears in eyes*
Star... Wars...
*starts drooling for a second, then reverts to normal*
Huh? Oh, sorry... anyway, the words Star Wars on the cover will
probably entice me to part with the $$$ - and I'm offering that as my
excuse for buying CoPL and TCS. :)
I just hope that I haven't crossed the line into total and
irretreivable fanatacism...
Bobby Cox
Representative of the Tirax System
"I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
"I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee."
"I can arrange that. You could use a good kiss!"
Note: Reply-to address mangled to get rid of spamming mail-bots
I think you can figure out what to get rid of...
Michael Mierzwa
Anncrispin wrote:
>
> > And, BTW, since Lucas supposedly read
> >all of the books, he will probably be influenced by them to some degree. It
> >would be difficult for him not to be.
>
> George Lucas, according to all I've heard, does not read the Star Wars novels.
> He does read (and sign off on) a short synopsis of each project, but that's
> only 1-2 pages per book, hardly enough to "influence" his filmmaking concepts.
>
> I just can't believe people keep getting in such a lather about a series of
> books...read them or don't, who cares? I make about 12 cents per book anyhow,
> so if Norm never reads The Han Solo Trilogy, I'm out a grand total of 36 cents.
> Big whoop.
>
> just read them and never give a thought to continuity, literary merit, canon,
> or anything else. The folks here on RASSM are but the teeniest tip of the
> iceberg insofar as the total number of readers buying Star Wars books.
>
I'll take acception with that. There is a vocal number of people who
might seem that way, but there are plenty of others (I happen to
consider myself among them) that totally understand that "SW fan" means
a very large and different thing to many people. :)
The purpose of discussing the novels in the NRG thread isn't to create a
better book or push demands/requests to the authors/publisher. It is
clearly a way to examine the different opinions in the novels and also
create a series of discussions so that future readers can find several
people who seem to represent their opinions on other issues and then
borrow their tastes or advice when choosing what other novels they might
want to read next. I like to think of the NRG as being like those
"Employee Recommended Videos" at blockbuster. Do you choose to watch
"Bud's" recommendations or "Sally's"?
> Money is everything to publishers.
Spoken almost like an economist. ;)
Michael Mierzwa
bl...@popstar.com
In article <3577A0...@ix.netcom.com>,
I agree, Michael. I felt kind of weird when I read Ann's post too, and I'm
glad someone else has said something, because I didn't know if I was the only
one who didn't like being lumped into such a category.
I particularly felt weird about the "36c / big whoop" equation. I can see it
was an emotional and biting aside towards Norm - and probably Norm only - but
it made me think of other authors out there who *strive* to have their books
read, (Case in point: Mike Stackpoles "essay" on his homepage about buying
second hand books, instead of new ones. I totally agree with it!) and bought
by their fans ... and to cut a long story short, it just seemed a little
ungrateful.
I mean, 36c is 36c, but 10x that is $3.60 ... 10x that is $36.00 ... 10x that
is $360 ... Noone said writing novels was a money spinner, but hey, it's still
money. And last I heard, no novelist ever had a gun pointed to their head and
were told, "You WILL write novels!"
As an aside: The way some novelists behave, (and I'm NOT talking about Ann,
here) you'd think they were doing everyone a major favour for writing a novel
and living in poverty. Sad truth is, most of the novels in the bookstores
aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Ok, ok ... *controversial mode off* ...
> The purpose of discussing the novels in the NRG thread isn't to create a
> better book or push demands/requests to the authors/publisher. It is
> clearly a way to examine the different opinions in the novels and also
> create a series of discussions so that future readers can find several
> people who seem to represent their opinions on other issues and then
> borrow their tastes or advice when choosing what other novels they might
> want to read next. I like to think of the NRG as being like those
> "Employee Recommended Videos" at blockbuster. Do you choose to watch
> "Bud's" recommendations or "Sally's"?
Absolutely right again, Michael.
We've all heard what opinions are like ... everybody's got one. I think the
NRG is a fantastic idea, where people can really throw their ideas at one
another, and noone gets hurt, which is always a bonus.
Besides, as the old saying goes, if everyone thought the same thing - what a
boring old place it would be.
I like the fact that some people will say, "That totally sucks !!!" because it
gives other people a chance to say, "Nooooo waaaaaaaaay, man !!!" and argue
their respective points. At the end of the day, noone's opinion is going to
change much, but speaking from a personal perspective, RASSM as a
whole has certainly opened my eyes as far as the novels go. Before I got
hooked on RASSM, I thought everyone would agree with me that Barbara Hambly's
novels are *terrible*. I'm glad to see, however, that Ms Hambly will still
have a very successful career, with the number of people who really enjoy her
work. Conversely, I will defend to the death some novels which people think
are utter crap. And so it goes on ...
I'm starting to waffle now, so will switch off for another episode.
As a closing comment, I don't think any writers reading this group should get
too psyched about negativity towards their books. Sure it's great to see
someone rave about your novels, but you can't get too high & mighty, (these
are only SW books, after all!) and become offended if someone dares to dislike
your work.
Taste, after all, is the enemy of art ;)
Cheers people,
Rob
--
Rob Irwin
Music Freak
Star Wars Fan Au-Go-Go
Journalist for PC Week & PC Magazine [Australia]
Oh my peer
Your veneer is wearing thin and cracking
The surface informs that underneath
Underneath is lacking
(REM "Bittersweet Me" from New Adventures In Hi-Fi)
bl...@popstar.com r...@apnpc.com.au
[work web addresses = www.zdnet.com.au/pcweek & www.zdnet.com.au/pcm]
Anncrispin
Hey, WAIT A MINUTE!
STOP THE PRESSES!
Did I say ONE WORD about the NRG in my post? No, I did not, and I was by no
means dissing that group, or the Star Wars readers in general.
Back up here.
You have missed the point of what I said. The point of that post was that the
people who read and comment extensively on the books, who care about canon,
continuity, etc., are a very tiny minority in the overall category "Star Wars
fan." They're vocal, but they're still a miniscule minority of the general SW
book-buying public. And the publishers know this. Just one of those
unpleasant facts of life...
Most Star Wars fans have never read the novels. And if they've read one or
two, (most likely back when they were kids) they could no more tell you the
difference between an X-Wing and a TIE fighter than they could fly to the GFFA.
The average reader who buys a Star Wars novel in the airport to have something
to read doesn't read the book with anything like the knowledge base a NRG
reader would.
NRG and most RASSMers are the tip of the iceberg. Tiny percentage.
My point with that post was that people spend a lot of time and energy getting
all het up about "do the books count?" The answer is, they count a little bit,
from time to time,, but only insofar as merchandising (i.e. money) is
concerned. Will they influence movies 7,8,9 assuming GL ever gets around to
making them? Maybe a little bit (remember, we did see the Outrider in the SE)
but most likely not.
People argue about whether Mara Jade or Dash Rendar or people from the books
will turn up in any post-ROTJ films. Almost certainly not. Nobody's going to
turn Tim Zahn's books into movies. That's not the way the Hollywood LFL
mindset works. They want to invent their own characters, not use ones invented
by the novelists. Writers in Hollywood are always the low folks on the totem
pole, and book writers even more so.
My point was also that fans have a totally different mindset from those who are
making the films or producing the books. The authors are somewhere in between.
I'm a true-blue Star Wars fan, yes, but I'm also a professional who knows
where the money comes from, and that Star Wars doesn't belong to me. When I
was writing my books, I had comments from fans about what I should do, but if
those comments conflicted with what Lucasfilm wanted, you can bet what my
writing reflected.
Is this bad? Does that make me a conscienceless mercenary? (Some fans have
actually said similar things to me about both Star Wars and Star Trek books --
that by writing these things for money instead of love, I'm betraying myself
and the fans.)
In my opinion, no, it makes me a conscientious writer who knows how to be
professional and work with those in power.
And yes, my comment about the thirty-six cents was directed to Norm, who is
probably about 12 years old, and doesn't like to read. Arguing with such people
about the merits of the books is a waste of time. I'd much rather spend my
time rapping with people like the NRG readers, frankly.
Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
characters, etc.
But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
As I said, just another of those unpleasant facts of life...
-Ann C. Crispin
fresca
Anncrispin wrote:<sniped>
> Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
> being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
> Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
> readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
> for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
> characters, etc.
>
> But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
> publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
> Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
>
> As I said, just another of those unpleasant facts of life...
>
Your defination of the average SW book reader is analogous to saying the average SW
movie only saw one of the movies. In my experience, people chose specific genres
to read. People who read romance novels are not necessarily the same people who
read sci-fi. And the sci-fi readers who read Asimov novels are not necessarily the
same people who read the SW books. An Asimov fans may read a SW book or two, but
will probably read all of the Asimov books. The reverse would also be true. The
thing you seem to be missing is that once a person reads a story they like, they
are more inclined to the next book in the series, then someone who didnt' like what
they read. What you have here is called repeat business. Repeat business is the
bread and butter of most businesses. Your suggestion that they there are more
casual readers, then loyal readers is statistically improbable. The casual reader
is more apt to pick up a book in the airport that is more in line with his/her
reading habits. Which means that a SW reader is more likely to pick up a SW book
then some who prefers Clancy. Because they have read the books before, they would
not about inconsistencies. These inconsistencies are forgivable in SW because of
the conditions in which the writers work. But if Jack Ryan all of a sudden became
never married, people would complain.
Norm
No ANN, i'm 32 and don't like to read fiction, is that ok with you! I read
alot of History & I am a Movie/Star Wars fan thats why i'm here.Bug Off,
because i don't read your books!
Anncrispin wrote in message
<199806051550...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Hey, WAIT A MINUTE!
>
>STOP THE PRESSES!
>
>Did I say ONE WORD about the NRG in my post? No, I did not, and I was by
no
>means dissing that group, or the Star Wars readers in general.
>
>Back up here.
>
>You have missed the point of what I said. The point of that post was that
the
>people who read and comment extensively on the books, who care about canon,
>continuity, etc., are a very tiny minority in the overall category "Star
Wars
>fan." They're vocal, but they're still a miniscule minority of the general
SW
>book-buying public. And the publishers know this. Just one of those
>unpleasant facts of life...
>
>Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
>being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
>Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more
informed
>readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of
respect
>for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all
the
>characters, etc.
>
>But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
>publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
>Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
>
>As I said, just another of those unpleasant facts of life...
>
>-Ann C. Crispin
>
Rimrunner
In article <3578490A...@mpinet.net>, fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
>
>
>Anncrispin wrote:<sniped>
>
>> Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
>> being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
>> Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
>> readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
>> for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
>> characters, etc.
>>
>> But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
>> publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
>> Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
>>
>> As I said, just another of those unpleasant facts of life...
>>
>
>movie only saw one of the movies. In my experience, people chose specific genres
>to read. People who read romance novels are not necessarily the same people who
>read sci-fi. And the sci-fi readers who read Asimov novels are not necessarily the
>same people who read the SW books. An Asimov fans may read a SW book or two, but
>will probably read all of the Asimov books. The reverse would also be true. The
>thing you seem to be missing is that once a person reads a story they like, they
>are more inclined to the next book in the series, then someone who didnt' like what
>they read.
'Scuse me for butting in here, but fresca, I really don't see how that
follows from what Ann was saying.
Her point was that most folks who read SW books are not the rabid fans
(and I'm including myself in this category) who post to RASSM, devote
entire websites to Wedge and Admiral Piett, and track plot holes or
inconsistencies in everything from Zahn to Roger McBride Allen.
Now I have only personal experience to cite in the following example, as
opposed to actual statistics or any other damn lies, but here goes (cause
this is Usenet, and if you can't monger rumors here, where can you monger
them?). Most of the people I know who've read SW books do NOT buy and read
them all. They come to me (knowing that I have read most of them) and ask
what's good.
What's more, your statement indicates that the sales figures for each SW
book (not just books by the same author, but all across the board) should
be roughly the same. The ones I've seen show that this is not the case.
>What you have here is called repeat business. Repeat business is the
>bread and butter of most businesses. Your suggestion that they there are more
>casual readers, then loyal readers is statistically improbable. The casual reader
>is more apt to pick up a book in the airport that is more in line with his/her
>reading habits. Which means that a SW reader is more likely to pick up a SW book
>then some who prefers Clancy. Because they have read the books before, they would
>not about inconsistencies. These inconsistencies are forgivable in SW because of
>the conditions in which the writers work. But if Jack Ryan all of a sudden became
>never married, people would complain.
Ah. I think I see the problem, and Ann, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ann's
definition of a "casual SW reader" is someone who is a fairly casual SW
fan, and who sees the books as light entertainment or bathtub reading.
They may read several (or all) of the books, but they don't discuss the
finer points of the plot, nor do I see all that many showing up on Usenet
to talk about it. (Yes, there are more people contributing regularly to
this group than there were four years ago, but not THAT many more, and the
demographics have changed substantially.)
Rimrunner
works in a bookstore, *knows* repeat business
--
Murder of Crows official web site: http://www.nwlink.com/~noah/
Force This!: http://www.shavenwookie.com/rimrun
Pop-Culture Corn: http://www.pccmag.com
--
"Look, I don't know how they do things on your home planet, spaceman...but
here in Mayberry, we just don't talk to gun-toting, redneck, amphetamine
freaks that way." -- Milkman Dan, "Red Meat"
--
Speculator
"Norm" <stor...@internetmcinospam.com>did you consider the great
discounts at the ORB while you wrote:
>No ANN, i'm 32 and don't like to read fiction, is that ok with you! I read
>alot of History & I am a Movie/Star Wars fan thats why i'm here.Bug Off,
>because i don't read your books!
Yes NORM, we believe your 32, and the moon is made of green cheese, is
that ok with you!
<Spec turns to RASSM throng>
Yo guys, maybe we should let this thread die.
mtfbwy,
Speculator.
e-mail: spec...@infoshop.u-net.com
business: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~lo386500/
Spec Fic: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~lo386500/specfic.htm
bookshop: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~lo386500/novels.htm
The Official RASSM Bookstore ...
Services we provide include:
- extensive range of Science Fiction and Fantasy novels
- Ordering from Amazon.Com
- On-line ordering
- Credit card acceptance
- 24 hour shipping with all purchases paid with money orders and credit cards
- Money back guarantee on almost all items
- Excellent service
- Ship anywhere in the world!
Anncrispin
>Ah. I think I see the problem, and Ann, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ann's
>definition of a "casual SW reader" is someone who is a fairly casual SW
>fan, and who sees the books as light entertainment or bathtub reading.
>They may read several (or all) of the books, but they don't discuss the
>finer points of the plot, nor do I see all that many showing up on Usenet
>to talk about it. (Yes, there are more people contributing regularly to
>this group than there were four years ago, but not THAT many more, and the
>demographics have changed substantially.)
>
>Rimrunner
>works in a bookstore, *knows* repeat business
>--
Dear Rimrunner:
Yes, you got my point exactly. Matter of fact, Bantam has acknowledged that
there are two "slots" that are the best for selling Star Wars novels --
December, due to holiday gift-giving, and July-August because people are
looking for something casual to read at the beach.
Star Wars books sell better in summer because of beach reading...which I would
call casual reading.
And Norm...take it easy. This is Star Wars, not life and death. I don't care
whether you read fiction, cereal boxes, or The Rise and Fall of the Third
Reich. Sorry if I offended you, but I was generalizing. There are many kids
these days that don't read: not Star Wars novels, or Goosebumps or anything.
It's unfortunate, but they're definitely here, and they turn up pretty
frequently and post things like "george lucas says the books dont count" and "i
never read the novels." So it wasn't too surprising you got mistaken for one
of those folks.
Apologies...you're obviously a grownup and a sophisticated reader -- of
nonfiction, and that's far more important than fiction, because fiction is
basically just a series of vile canards strung together.
I am concerned that I keep being misinterpreted in this thread. People seem to
be getting really steamed, and I'm not sure why. Is it that they don't like
the notion that they're part of a small subgroup, as I pointed out? And that
publishers know this? Or they don't like the idea that George Lucas will
probably never make the Zahn books into movies or pay much attention to the
Star Wars print universe?
I'm not sure, but I think, as somebody suggested, it would be better to let
this thread just die. I don't want to make enemies and it's obvious I've
pushed some very sensitive buttons without meaning to.
-Ann C. Crispin
Norm
To answer your question, I think its you attitude!
Anncrispin wrote in message
<199806061452...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Norm
Anisa
In article <199806061452...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
> And Norm...take it easy. This is Star Wars, not life and death. I don't care
> whether you read fiction, cereal boxes, or The Rise and Fall of the Third
> Reich. Sorry if I offended you, but I was generalizing. There are many kids
> these days that don't read: not Star Wars novels, or Goosebumps or anything.
> It's unfortunate, but they're definitely here, and they turn up pretty
> frequently and post things like "george lucas says the books dont count"
and > "i never read the novels." So it wasn't too surprising you got
mistaken for > one of those folks.
> Apologies...you're obviously a grownup and a sophisticated reader -- of
> nonfiction, and that's far more important than fiction, because fiction is
> basically just a series of vile canards strung together.
;) ;) (Although it is sort of a battle of wits with an unarmed etc.)
> I am concerned that I keep being misinterpreted in this thread. People seemto
> be getting really steamed, and I'm not sure why. Is it that they don't like
> the notion that they're part of a small subgroup, as I pointed out? And that
> publishers know this? Or they don't like the idea that George Lucas will
> probably never make the Zahn books into movies or pay much attention to the
> Star Wars print universe?
I tried to make the same point (though rather less eloquently) during the
discussion of the "Plot does matter" thing on the starwars.com website. I
think it is difficult for people who read this group to look at hundreds
of posts a day from all around the world and still realize what a tiny
portion of humanity (and even of Star Wars fans) we really represent.
And for that matter, I think if we really looked at it, a lot of us are
"casual readers." I've read some of the books and haven't read others;
I've liked some and hated others; but I've never lost any sleep about
inconsistencies among them, much less whether they'll influence GL in any
way or not. I certainly can't figure out why some of these people care
more than *you* do about whether the books are taken seriously.
And, by the way, thank you for hanging out here. Please don't let folks
like Norm get to you.
--Anisa
Tommy Maguire
From: Tommy Maguire <tommym...@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: The Books again
Date: 07 June 1998 01:10
Ann, everyone is entitled to their opinions. And you are in a better
position than most here to determine if your "offensive" post was correct.
You were very direct in what you said and maybe that is why offense was
taken. My motto is "say what you mean and mean what you say" (although I am
sure I have stolen that of someone). And I am sure that no one will hold
what you said against you, well not for too long anyway :-). In fact you
are maybe in a better position than the rest of us to determine if your post
was relevant and correct to the subject being discussed. Don't keep your
comments or views from us for fear of upsetting someone. It is good to get
some input from someone with a more direct link to the Star Wars universe.
But.......it had to come........I think that your comment was incorrect to
an extent. When you talk about RASSM do you consider the number of people
posting to the group or the people who read the group ? I am sure there are
a huge number of lurkers which never seem to be considered when discussing
people who use RASSM. Has anyone conducted some sort of survey to see how
many visitors RASSM actually have ? I would also say that most of the
people that use RASSM are what I would call the hard core fans of the Star
Wars universe. Most of the threads generated are a joy to read and it is,
most of the time, intelligent and thoughtful postings concerning Star Wars
in all it's incarnations. As for the "will GL use the Zahn books or not" as
a basis for sequels, wether he does or not is entirley GL's decision. That
is the reason why I try to steer clear of reading the novels. IMO GL's
vision is the only vision I wish to see in the future. Maybe I take things
a bit to seriously and I should broaden my horizons. But whatever his
decision should be, no one can hold you responsible.
>I am concerned that I keep being misinterpreted in this thread. People
seem to
>be getting really steamed, and I'm not sure why. Is it that they don't
like
>the notion that they're part of a small subgroup, as I pointed out? And
that
>publishers know this? Or they don't like the idea that George Lucas will
>probably never make the Zahn books into movies or pay much attention to the
>Star Wars print universe? >I am concerned that I keep being misinterpreted
Anncrispin
>I certainly can't figure out why some of these people care
>more than *you* do about whether the books are taken seriously.
>
>And, by the way, thank you for hanging out here. Please don't let folks
>like Norm get to you.
>
>--Anisa
Dear Anisa,
Thanks for the kind words, that's nice of you. It's also pleasant to have my
scintillating wit appreciated. <vbeg>
Having never met George Lucas, I am basing my comments about how much attention
he'll ever pay to the print SW universe on a couple of interviews I've read
with the gentleman, in which he stated that he didn't read the Star Wars
novels. He probably sees them on the shelves at Skywalker ranch, along with
the lunch boxes and action figures, but does he ever pick them up and read
them? Not according to what I've read.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure if you woke him up out of a sound sleep and asked him,
"Who is A.C. Crispin?" he wouldn't have the foggiest idea.
<grin>
Tim Zahn and Kevin J. Anderson...maybe. If he was wide awake and had had his
morning coffee, probably. But at this point there are so many books, and Mr.
Lucas is a really busy guy. There are officials at Lucasfilm whose sole job is
to check the continuity of Star Wars books and other licensed materials. GL is
too busy making movies and running a multi-million or billion (I guess it's the
latter) business for him to pay personal attention to all the offshoots of his
brain-child.
I'm basing some of my opinions about Lucasfilm and George Lucas from having met
many of the Star Trek film and television folks over the years. I knew Gene
Roddenberry, not well, but we were guests together at half a dozen conventions
over the years, and shared meals, etc. From hearing people like Roddenberry,
Ron Moore, Jeri Taylor, etc., talk it was very plain that it was THEIR vision
of Star Trek they wanted appearing on film or in the series -- and that they
were all creative people who didn't need to (or certainly didn't think they
needed to!) go looking at the published Star Trek novels for storylines.
By stating that I don't think the books will wind up being part of the filmed
Star Wars universe, I'm certainly not dissing the books or their readers. That
would be ridiculous, under the circumstances! I honestly believe that many of
the books have been a terrific addition to the Star Wars universe -- and that
the authors' imaginations have benefitted the SW canon.
But it's like comparing the publishing industry with the film industry. Both
are huge, and have lots of money, but the film industry completely eclipses the
publishing industry in terms of how much money they rake in.
One successful movie can take in 50 million bucks in a single weekend these
days. For a book to earn that much...well, it would have to be a bestseller
for months, maybe years.
So to Lucasfilm the films are the most important thing, and that's only
natural. The books are one of their many products, but only one. It's very
nice when the books do "branch out" and they produce action figures from the
characters, or okay WEG to write a Sourcebook based on them, but that's not the
same thing as having Mr. Lucas decide to adapt the Timothy Zahn trilogy and
produce it as Episodes 7,8 and 9.
Do I think that will ever happen? No, I don't.
But hey, those of us who DO read the books can continue to enjoy them for a
long time to come. The success of SW guarantees that there will be a SW
publishing program for many years to come.
-Ann C. Crispin
policraticus
Anisa wrote:
> I think it is difficult for people who read this group to look at hundreds
> of posts a day from all around the world and still realize what a tiny
> portion of humanity (and even of Star Wars fans) we really represent.
Having just been involved in a fairly serious conversation - the third time SW has
been mentioned to me in the past 6 hours - about the prequels with several people,
none of whom could be honestly described as dedicared SW fans, I think it's fair to
say that there are immense legions of latent SW fans out there.
Policrat'
Bobby Cox
On 05 Jun 1998 15:50:21 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) jumped up
and announced to the general posting public:
>Hey, WAIT A MINUTE!
>
>STOP THE PRESSES!
>
>Did I say ONE WORD about the NRG in my post? No, I did not, and I was by no
>means dissing that group, or the Star Wars readers in general.
>
>Back up here.
>
>You have missed the point of what I said. The point of that post was that the
>people who read and comment extensively on the books, who care about canon,
>continuity, etc., are a very tiny minority in the overall category "Star Wars
>fan." They're vocal, but they're still a miniscule minority of the general SW
>book-buying public. And the publishers know this. Just one of those
>unpleasant facts of life...
>Most Star Wars fans have never read the novels. And if they've read one or
>two, (most likely back when they were kids) they could no more tell you the
>difference between an X-Wing and a TIE fighter than they could fly to the GFFA.
> The average reader who buys a Star Wars novel in the airport to have something
>to read doesn't read the book with anything like the knowledge base a NRG
>reader would.
>
>NRG and most RASSMers are the tip of the iceberg. Tiny percentage.
Yeah, but we're the loud ones... :) What's the quote? 'He who shouts
the loudest has the floor'?
IMHO, we serve as feedback for the authors. Apart from yourself, K-Mac
has been known to post occaisonally (and probably still lurks), and
I've heard that Mike Stackpole lurks, too. KJA used to make
appearances here.
>My point with that post was that people spend a lot of time and energy getting
>all het up about "do the books count?" The answer is, they count a little bit,
>from time to time,, but only insofar as merchandising (i.e. money) is
>concerned. Will they influence movies 7,8,9 assuming GL ever gets around to
>making them? Maybe a little bit (remember, we did see the Outrider in the SE)
>but most likely not.
*shrug* It won't really worry me one way of the other, but it'd be
nice to see...
>People argue about whether Mara Jade or Dash Rendar or people from the books
>will turn up in any post-ROTJ films. Almost certainly not. Nobody's going to
>turn Tim Zahn's books into movies. That's not the way the Hollywood LFL
>mindset works. They want to invent their own characters, not use ones invented
>by the novelists. Writers in Hollywood are always the low folks on the totem
>pole, and book writers even more so.
The impression that I got from the 'Who would you cast in a Zahn
trilogy?' thread was that it was pure speculation, nice to see, but
knowing that it wouldn't happen...
>My point was also that fans have a totally different mindset from those who are
>making the films or producing the books. The authors are somewhere in between.
> I'm a true-blue Star Wars fan, yes, but I'm also a professional who knows
>where the money comes from, and that Star Wars doesn't belong to me. When I
>was writing my books, I had comments from fans about what I should do, but if
>those comments conflicted with what Lucasfilm wanted, you can bet what my
>writing reflected.
Well, since LFL are the guys signing the checks...
Writing is what pays your bills. For us, it's an amusing past-time to
while away a few idle hours. Some of us ust take it a *tad* too
seriously...
>Is this bad? Does that make me a conscienceless mercenary? (Some fans have
>actually said similar things to me about both Star Wars and Star Trek books --
>that by writing these things for money instead of love, I'm betraying myself
>and the fans.)
I don't think so. You obviously love SW (I'm making that statement
based on reading the Han Solo novels - you've obviously put a lot of
effort into them), and you'e getting paid to contribute to it. There'd
be a few people here on RASSM who'd jump at the chance to write a SW
novel (myself being one of them, and any money I got out of it would
be a bonus).
>In my opinion, no, it makes me a conscientious writer who knows how to be
>professional and work with those in power.
>
>And yes, my comment about the thirty-six cents was directed to Norm, who is
>probably about 12 years old, and doesn't like to read. Arguing with such people
>about the merits of the books is a waste of time. I'd much rather spend my
>time rapping with people like the NRG readers, frankly.
Yep, Norm sounds like a troll to me, too. Killfiling's too good for
gits like him.
>Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
>being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
>Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
>readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
>for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
>characters, etc.
>
>But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
>publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
>Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
Oh, we're not, but as I said earlier, we're the ones who get up and
shout the loudest, and the people who shout the loudest tend to get
the most attention.
>As I said, just another of those unpleasant facts of life...
fresca
Bobby Cox wrote:
I'm just thinking that were the people who care that post here. Not everyone who
reads the books are on the ng's, but that doesn' mean that they just read that book
and forget about forever. I'm sure the people who read HttE when it first came out,
remembered the particulars when Dark Forces came. To assume that the only people
who care about continuity are on the ng is myopic. Continuity counts when books
are connected by themes and characters regardless of whether, or not, the readers
post on the ngs. Look at it this way, we are the focal minority of a larger group
of repeat customers. People react to shoddy workmanship in different ways. Some
come to the ng's, some write to the publisher, some grin and bear, and others just
stop buying the product. Using the ng's as a indicator of problems works because
they are the self-professed repeat buyers (most of them that is). They have proven
that their interest in the product is well ground. Basically, they are the
hardcore fans that can be counted on to buy. It the market ignors them, they risk
losing their core profits. When an author of a book comes here and tells us that
our opinions don't matter, then she is, in effect, telling her hardcore fans to stop
reading her books.
> >My point with that post was that people spend a lot of time and energy getting
> >all het up about "do the books count?" The answer is, they count a little bit,
> >from time to time,, but only insofar as merchandising (i.e. money) is
> >concerned. Will they influence movies 7,8,9 assuming GL ever gets around to
> >making them? Maybe a little bit (remember, we did see the Outrider in the SE)
> >but most likely not.
>
> *shrug* It won't really worry me one way of the other, but it'd be
> nice to see...
Crispin is rich here. She claims to not to known Lucas but then claims an insight
into his creative mind. The point is that the only one who really knows how much
of the books will find their way in the movies is Lucas. For all she knows, he
hasn't read them as of the time of the interviews she's read. (personally, wouldn't
take what's said interviews as gospel), but intended to prior to writing the
scripts. Lucas supposedly went through 50 books on mythology before writing ANH,
why wouldn't he put some effort into seeing what other authors had done with his
universe? The one thing we do know about Lucas and SW, continiuty, to some degree,
matters to him. If it didn't he wouldn't have placed restrictions what authors did
with his characters.
> >People argue about whether Mara Jade or Dash Rendar or people from the books
> >will turn up in any post-ROTJ films. Almost certainly not. Nobody's going to
> >turn Tim Zahn's books into movies. That's not the way the Hollywood LFL
> >mindset works. They want to invent their own characters, not use ones invented
> >by the novelists. Writers in Hollywood are always the low folks on the totem
> >pole, and book writers even more so.
>
> The impression that I got from the 'Who would you cast in a Zahn
> trilogy?' thread was that it was pure speculation, nice to see, but
> knowing that it wouldn't happen...
I agree with you here, Crispin seems to like getting on her soapbox for the sake of
speaking. Why should it bother her so much that some people here like to discus
dream scripting ideas. I don't get her. And I have serious doubt that she is who
she says she is. She claims no affiliation with Lucas, but then claims to know for
a fact that Mara Jade would not be used for the sequels. This is one of the
reasons I doubt her validity. Why would an author who used another writers
characters be so adamant about how Lucas would not want to use another authors
characters. I would think that Lucas would want to make the best picture possible,
and if that meant using another authors characters, he would do it. I am inclined
to agree with her that the Zahn trilogy would not be made into a movie because it
would Lucas guards his stories jealousy and to make a movie based on a book means no
surprises. But to stretch that to mean that Lucas wouldn't use a good character in
a book just it isn't his character is far reaching. Now, if this Crispin person
claimed to be a good friend of Lucas', I could understand the statement.
> >My point was also that fans have a totally different mindset from those who are
> >making the films or producing the books. The authors are somewhere in between.
> > I'm a true-blue Star Wars fan, yes, but I'm also a professional who knows
> >where the money comes from, and that Star Wars doesn't belong to me. When I
> >was writing my books, I had comments from fans about what I should do, but if
> >those comments conflicted with what Lucasfilm wanted, you can bet what my
> >writing reflected.
>
> Well, since LFL are the guys signing the checks...
> Writing is what pays your bills. For us, it's an amusing past-time to
> while away a few idle hours. Some of us ust take it a *tad* too
> seriously...
I'm kind of thinking that we are the buying public. We are more likely to buy
anything out there connected to SW. Crispin is almost on target when she says that
the mindsets are different. But the main distinction is the movie audience versus
the book audience. Lucas will pull in the a far more diverse audience then any of
the books. The books readers will no doubt be dwarfed by the non-readers.
However, this still doesn't mean that continuity is unimportant. Bear in mind that
a lot of book readers don't read the comics, but things from the comics still find
their way into the books and vice versa. It just comes down to how much Lucas
likes continuity, and how his originally vision has been altered by time and the
books. Refuse to believe that a person who goes out of his way to insure that the
books, medium he doesn't even write for, follow a few restrictions, would turn
around and ditch everything written before in some egotistical sweep.
> >Is this bad? Does that make me a conscienceless mercenary? (Some fans have
> >actually said similar things to me about both Star Wars and Star Trek books --
> >that by writing these things for money instead of love, I'm betraying myself
> >and the fans.)
>
> I don't think so. You obviously love SW (I'm making that statement
> based on reading the Han Solo novels - you've obviously put a lot of
> effort into them), and you'e getting paid to contribute to it. There'd
> be a few people here on RASSM who'd jump at the chance to write a SW
> novel (myself being one of them, and any money I got out of it would
> be a bonus).
I have a problem believing this if the person that wrote the books. She claims to
be a writer for money, but then spends a huge amount of time suggesting that her
fans opiinions don't matter. She seems more like an artful troll.
> >In my opinion, no, it makes me a conscientious writer who knows how to be
> >professional and work with those in power.
> >
> >And yes, my comment about the thirty-six cents was directed to Norm, who is
> >probably about 12 years old, and doesn't like to read. Arguing with such people
> >about the merits of the books is a waste of time. I'd much rather spend my
> >time rapping with people like the NRG readers, frankly.
>
> Yep, Norm sounds like a troll to me, too. Killfiling's too good for
> gits like him.
He may be a troll, haven't noticed one way or the other, but Crispin reads an awful
lot like a troll. A verbrose troll, but a troll just the same.
> >Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
> >being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
> >Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
> >readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
> >for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
> >characters, etc.
> >
> >But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
> >publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
> >Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
>
> Oh, we're not, but as I said earlier, we're the ones who get up and
> shout the loudest, and the people who shout the loudest tend to get
> the most attention.
Why is this person so quick to bite the hands that she claims feeds her? What kind
of writer was suggest that the vast majority of readers are uninformed? I can see
the majority movie goer's being blissifully uninformed because not alot of people
read for pleasure any more, but those that do tend to be faithful to their favorite
authors. I thought that was the reason that publisher prefer to publish books be
well known writers. Product loyalty, why does she have such a problem
understanding the concept?
John Donchig
> To answer your question, I think its you attitude!
I'm a latecomer to this thread, but it appears as though Ms. Crispin was
attempting to apologize, and was very forthright doing it. Now you come
back with a crack about her attitude? Why can't you just do what she
asked, and let this thread die? And stop with the personal attacks. It
makes you seem juevenile.
John D.
Tommy Maguire
>I disagree -- I'm sure the number of people in the world not using
>newsgroups FAR, FAR, FAR exceeds the number using them, by geometrical
>proportions. We are but a small cross-section of the crowd, and the
>vast majority of casual fans (the ones LFL is really aiming at) would
>consider us geeks. Look, I know it's an unpleasant reality -- but it
>IS reality.
No doubt about that. Even if every net user in the world visited RASSM we
would all still be in a minority group. But what we have in the group is an
excellent cross section of fans from all over the world. Look at the
discussions in the group running at the moment. Debates about characters,
the books, other film comparisons, prequel speculation, various items of
humour, it has it all. And yes to casual fans we would be considered geeks
because of our devotion. But we also have casual fans who get involved from
time to time as well with queries or responses to posts based on their own
knowledge. RASSM is reprentative of every type of Star Wars fan known to
mankind and I think it is a shame that Ann seemed to be slightly dismissive
of the group. I am the sort of fan who takes the films way too seriously, I
have browsed one or two books but never bought one and I have never found
myself wanting to read one (I am the really big minority I think.). Not all
Star Wars fans are like me though. Others will read the books because they
crave more knowledge on Star Wars. Others will read them because they like
the author. Maybe some will read them because of the games like Shadows Of
The Empire. Or the so called casual fan will buy the book for light
reading, as they would any other book based on any other subject. And these
types of fans can all be found here. If LFL want to aim their books at a
certain type of fan, all they need to do is to look at RASSM to get the
perfect picture.
Anncrispin
>RASSM is reprentative of every type of Star Wars fan known to
>mankind and I think it is a shame that Ann seemed to be slightly dismissive
>of the group.
Dear Mr. Maguire:
I'm not at all dismissive of this group. I'm spending my time having a
dialogue, writing posts, and most of the time, what I write I get paid to
write. To writers, time and words are money. If I were dismissive, I wouldn't
bother to respond.
My point all along has been that the big corporations, while interested in fan
opinion to some extent, as it affects their product, are perfectly aware that
MOST of the people who go to see Star Wars movies don't read Star Wars novels,
or tech manuals, or play the games, or anything like that. They know SW only
through the films.
And Bantam, Lucasfilm and Del Rey are also aware that the fans who know
everything there is to know about the Star Wars print universe -- people who
know the exact length of a Super-Star Destroyer, and how many credits Guri the
HRD cost Prince Xixor -- are a minorty, compared to the many readers who will
read a Star Wars book on a plane or on the beach.
That's not an insult to the true-fans, it's just reality.
Lucas might indeed make some references to the print universe when and if he
ever gets around to making the 7,8 and 9 episodes. But I would bet real money
that he will NEVER transform any of the Star Wars printed novels into one or
more film. George Lucas wants his own vision to be Star Wars -- not mine, or
Michael P. Kube MacDowell's, or Timothy Zahn's, or Kevin J. Anderson's or
Barbara Hambly's.
I don't see that this is in any way being dismissive of the Star Wars fans. I
like and respect the fans, as I do all my readers. I just believe that George
Lucas will want his own vision of Star Wars to be the one on film.
As to that gentleman who thinks I am a troll...I proved who I was long ago on
this board. <sigh>
-Ann C. Crispin
fresca
John Donchig wrote:
It read more like a left handed apology. And I don't see why we should let
the thread die just because she ask that we do. That's not how the ngs
work. Thread die when they exhausted and no cares to engage in life
support, not because they offend one person who seems to like to pass
judgment on others.
Tommy Maguire
>My point all along has been that the big corporations, while interested in
fan
>opinion to some extent, as it affects their product, are perfectly aware
that
>MOST of the people who go to see Star Wars movies don't read Star Wars
novels,
>or tech manuals, or play the games, or anything like that. They know SW
only
>through the films.
So who are the books aimed at ? I don't buy with your reasoning at all. At
some point Star Wars fans will indulge themselves in the games, books,
figures, comics, web sites etc. And that goes for the majority of Star Wars
fans. If we are talking about minorities who would use these types of
media, why do Lucasfilm bother ? And I was talking about this group being a
minority within all this, not the general Star Wars fan on the street.
Lucasfilm have pumped millions into the games Force Commander and Rogue
Squadron due for release later this year. Everyone who owns a PC or N64
that likes Star Wars will no doubt buy these games, and that would not by no
means be a minority. Star Wars has has continued it's long reign because of
the constant additions to it's universe through other media sources, not
soley through the films.
>And Bantam, Lucasfilm and Del Rey are also aware that the fans who know
>everything there is to know about the Star Wars print universe -- people
who
>know the exact length of a Super-Star Destroyer, and how many credits Guri
the
>HRD cost Prince Xixor -- are a minorty, compared to the many readers who
will
>read a Star Wars book on a plane or on the beach.
No doubt about it. So what is the point here ? The thing I am trying to
say is there is an obvious fan base for the books. And these people who
know the size of a Star Destroyer and how many credits such and such cost
can be found here or other similar newsgroups across the internet. When
people get almost obssessive about something they crave information about
it, one of the reasons the Internet itself has taken off. And the hard core
"minority" of Star Wars fans can be found at RASSM an other internet
sources. And if the books are aimed at the occasional fan, why strive for
continuity within the books ? Who do you consider when writing your books
? If the hard core element of fans did not exist IMO there would not be a
necessity to keep a degree of continuity from film to novel to each
subsquent novel.
fresca
Anncrispin wrote:
> As to that gentleman who thinks I am a troll...I proved who I was long ago on
> this board. <sigh>
>
And exactly how did you do this? I'm real curious. I can't imagine anything you
could possibly do to prove who you are short of mentioning the RASSM and some of
the people here in here books. Or making statements to the affect in interviews.
You contradict yourself when you say that words are living to you, and yet you come
here regularly. It makes no sense to do so.
And you don't just insult the people here, you insult the sci-fi genre. People
who don't read sci-fi, don't pick up the books in the airports. Note the small
numbers sci-fi books that can be found places like airports and grocery stores.
Sci-fi readers, like romance readers are writer loyal. Two expections to this
would be SW and ST books where more that one writer writes the stories. I have
known many people who read sci-fi and people who don't. People who don't have a
preference for a specific genre tend to stick with the best sellers list, as does
the casual reader. Unless you want to contend that SW books are regularly on the
best seller list, I don't think your casual reader scenerio works. It's called
name recognition. But again, in most businesses, product loyalty is the bread and
butter. The company that ignores the loyal customers is the company that goes out
of business.
Norm
you just kept it alive
John Donchig wrote in message <357B74...@earthlink.net>...
>> To answer your question, I think its you attitude!
>
>I'm a latecomer to this thread, but it appears as though Ms. Crispin was
>attempting to apologize, and was very forthright doing it. Now you come
>back with a crack about her attitude? Why can't you just do what she
>asked, and let this thread die? And stop with the personal attacks. It
>makes you seem juevenile.
>
>John D.
Tommy Maguire
....whoops, hit the post button to soon. Anyway, what I can summise is that
the Star Wars novels and indeed the Star Trek novels which you were also
involved in are nothing more than novels tagged with Star Wars/Star Trek to
make them sell. If this was the case I cannot see GL allowing the
commisioning of the books. Please don't take me wrong on this Ann. I am
sure you invest a lot of time and effort into your novels to make them
appeal to all degrees of Star Wars fans. It's just that your view on the
whole novel thing appears to be contrary to what IMO the purpose of novel
writing is all about.
John Donchig
fresca wrote:
>
> John Donchig wrote:
>
> > > To answer your question, I think its you attitude!
> >
> > I'm a latecomer to this thread, but it appears as though Ms. Crispin was
> > attempting to apologize, and was very forthright doing it. Now you come
> > back with a crack about her attitude? Why can't you just do what she
> > asked, and let this thread die? And stop with the personal attacks. It
> > makes you seem juevenile.
> >
> >
>
> the thread die just because she ask that we do. That's not how the ngs
> work. Thread die when they exhausted and no cares to engage in life
> support, not because they offend one person who seems to like to pass
> judgment on others.
Like I said, I was a latecomer to the thread. I thought Ms. Crispin
asked for it to die so it wouldn't degenerate into bickering (which, now
that I think about it, I may have contributed to). If I was wrong, I'm
sorry.
John D.
Wayne Poe
On 8 Jun 1998, Anncrispin wrote:
> And Bantam, Lucasfilm and Del Rey are also aware that the fans who know
> everything there is to know about the Star Wars print universe -- people who
> know the exact length of a Super-Star Destroyer, and how many credits Guri the
> HRD cost Prince Xixor -- are a minorty, compared to the many readers who will
> read a Star Wars book on a plane or on the beach.
This "minority" however, is extremely vocal, and DO affect change. When
Kenner came out with the new SW action figures, making the main characters
resemble Arnold Scwarzenegger(sp?) rather than Ford, Hamill, or Fisher,
the minority that DOES have an eye toward continuity and quality of film
related product, took them to task for it. Now, "new likenesses" of the SW
characters are now cropping up that look MUCH more like the characters we
saw in the movies.
The "casual" SW moviegoer probably wouldn't have cared, but the minority
who know ship lengths and droid costs did, and affected change.
Anncrispin
Dear RASSMers:
A few months ago, the NRG group asked me to stick around here on RASSM until my
three novels were reviewed, so I could answer questions about them. I did
this, and we had a pleasant dialogue. It was fun, and several times I was able
to shed some light on the continuity problems connected with Han Solo's life as
Lucasfilm explained them to me.
To the individual who demanded to know how I proved who I am, the answer is
simple and twofold: (1) months before REBEL DAWN came out, I responded to all
emails questioning my identity with the information that the book was going to
be dedicated to Brian Daley. This is something only the author could know, or
someone closely affiliated with the Bantam Star Wars department, and (2) I sent
an early copy of the hand-corrected ms. to Rich Handley so he could read it,
several months before it appeared on the bookstore shelves.
(Rich Handley helped me with research on REBEL DAWN throughout the book, and
there's an acknowledgment to him there. We spoke on the phone, sent letters
back and forth, and, when his collaborator came to tour the Star Wars exhibit,
she came out to the house and met me personally. So Rich was able to vouch
that I am not a "troll.")
When I first got onto RASSM, a number of other SW authors warned me: "Authors
don't stay around long on RASSM. There are too many flamewars and people get
really nasty and personal and dump on the writers and their books. You'll find
out.." Well, that never proved to be true. Except for a couple of posts, most
everyone was nice about my books, or at least civil.
Up till now, there's been no flaming, no nastiness. We've had discussions,
but's always been pleasant and fun.
But...I sense that this is no longer the case. This discussion is degenerating
towards flaming, and I am not sticking around for that. It's much better to
make my exit before things degenerate further into real nastiness and
name-calling.
Many of the people I'm currently exchanging postings with have admitted upfront
that they're not readers, and thus have no reason to like or respect the books
or those who write them. They don't believe I'm me, and they keep insisting
that I'm out to insult the Star Wars fans, including my own readers. They're
accusing me of all kinds of dastardly dissing.
It's not true. I think most of the folks I've exchanged postings here with
will attest that I've been pleasant and respectful.
Be that as it may, there's no point in arguing with people with closed minds.
Nothing I can say here will convince anyone that I'm the author of the Han Solo
Trilogy, that I respect and admire the Star Wars fans, and that I'm not out to
insult anyone.
So...I won't be posting here again. I'm not sure whether I'll leave RASSM
altogether...probably. Work on my fantasy trilogy for Avon is heating up, and
Star Wars is now part of the past for me. I had never intended to stay much
past the publication of REBEL DAWN anyhow.
But before I bow out, I'd like to thank a number of folks on RASSM who were
very pleasant to me, including Michael Mierzwa (hope I spelled that right),
Amara, Wayne Poe, and many others. And, of course, my pal Rich, but we stay in
touch anyhow, so this isn't goodbye to him.
Thanks guys, and may the force be with you.
-Ann C. Crispin
Dark Lord Karno Dal
fresca wrote in message <357C1B3E...@mpinet.net>...
>It read more like a left handed apology. And I don't see why we should let
>the thread die just because she ask that we do. That's not how the ngs
>work. Thread die when they exhausted and no cares to engage in life
>support, not because they offend one person who seems to like to pass
>judgment on others.
Well maybe if you hadn't been so busy making an ass out of yourself, you';d
have stopped to take a look at what was going on. I assume it was far to
easy to get your oanties in a wad and strut around like a big bad nitwit
insulting Ann and being high and mighty. All you've done is managed to run
off one of the few authors who still bothered to come around here. Ann's
been nothing but friendly and respectful of everyone on here and has done
not a damned thing to deserve the ego-boosting tirade you launched at her.
She is under NO mandate to prove her identity to you or anyone else on here.
If you didn't believe she was who she claimed to be, then the simple answer
would have been to refrain from reading her posts. And you dare to mention
passing judgement on others. Of all the hypocritical baskets of hog $h!t
I've ever heard in my life. get a damned clue for Christ's sake.
Thank you SO much for spoiling it for the rest of us. I can only hope Ann
might reconsider and decide to stay, but with self-aggrandizing morons like
you on here, I can't blame her for not wanting to hang around.
Dark Lord karno Dal
si...@lords.com
Rimrunner
In article <Eu5uw...@news2.new-york.net>,
Rich Handley <Card...@unix.asb.com> wrote:
>"Tommy Maguire" <tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>But.......it had to come........I think that your comment was incorrect to
>>an extent. When you talk about RASSM do you consider the number of people
>>posting to the group or the people who read the group ? I am sure there are
>>a huge number of lurkers which never seem to be considered when discussing
>>people who use RASSM. Has anyone conducted some sort of survey to see how
>>many visitors RASSM actually have ? I would also say that most of the
>>people that use RASSM are what I would call the hard core fans of the Star
>>Wars universe.
>
>newsgroups FAR, FAR, FAR exceeds the number using them, by geometrical
>proportions. We are but a small cross-section of the crowd, and the
>vast majority of casual fans (the ones LFL is really aiming at) would
>consider us geeks. Look, I know it's an unpleasant reality -- but it
>IS reality.
Allow me to chime in here; while I don't have actual statistics and
there's no marketing person around at the moment that I can ask, consider
this:
The U.S. probably has a greater percentage of its population online than
any other country in the world right now (the second, third, and
fourth--not necessarily in that order--are probably England, Germany, and
Japan). And yet, I forget the exact number, but it's somewhere below 10
percent, have access to the Internet.
This ain't five years ago. In other words, when most people access the net
these days, it's through the Web. And you wouldn't believe how few of
these people have even HEARD of Usenet, let alone use it. In other words
(2), the number of people who are on Usenet is a subset of the people who
are on online. Which is, even in the U.S., a small fragment of the
population.
Even allowing for the fact that SF readers, Star Wars fans, and other such
folks are probably more likely to have net access than your average
person, the number of SW fans who spend time on this here group is a
subset of the number of total SW fans, and I'd wager a rather small one. I
may have flunked statistics, but it's fairly obvious to me that we're a
small pond.
Get used to it.
Rimrunner
publishers look at sales figures, not the internet
--
Murder of Crows official web site: http://www.nwlink.com/~noah/
Force This!: http://www.shavenwookie.com/rimrun
Pop-Culture Corn: http://www.pccmag.com
--
"Look, I don't know how they do things on your home planet, spaceman...but
here in Mayberry, we just don't talk to gun-toting, redneck, amphetamine
freaks that way." -- Milkman Dan, "Red Meat"
--
Rimrunner
In article <aSfe1.238$uJ4.3...@news.internetmci.com>,
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Still wondering why people assume that you're 12, not 32?
Rimrunner
i mean, jesus christ on a pogo stick
fresca
Tommy Maguire wrote:
> >My point all along has been that the big corporations, while interested in
> fan
> >opinion to some extent, as it affects their product, are perfectly aware
> that
> >MOST of the people who go to see Star Wars movies don't read Star Wars
> novels,
> >or tech manuals, or play the games, or anything like that. They know SW
> only
> >through the films.
>
> So who are the books aimed at ? I don't buy with your reasoning at all. At
> some point Star Wars fans will indulge themselves in the games, books,
> figures, comics, web sites etc. And that goes for the majority of Star Wars
> fans. If we are talking about minorities who would use these types of
> media, why do Lucasfilm bother ? And I was talking about this group being a
> minority within all this, not the general Star Wars fan on the street.
> Lucasfilm have pumped millions into the games Force Commander and Rogue
> Squadron due for release later this year. Everyone who owns a PC or N64
> that likes Star Wars will no doubt buy these games, and that would not by no
> means be a minority. Star Wars has has continued it's long reign because of
> the constant additions to it's universe through other media sources, not
> soley through the films.
>
> >And Bantam, Lucasfilm and Del Rey are also aware that the fans who know
> >everything there is to know about the Star Wars print universe -- people
> who
> >know the exact length of a Super-Star Destroyer, and how many credits Guri
> the
> >HRD cost Prince Xixor -- are a minorty, compared to the many readers who
> will
> >read a Star Wars book on a plane or on the beach.
>
> No doubt about it. So what is the point here ? The thing I am trying to
> say is there is an obvious fan base for the books. And these people who
> know the size of a Star Destroyer and how many credits such and such cost
> can be found here or other similar newsgroups across the internet. When
> people get almost obssessive about something they crave information about
> it, one of the reasons the Internet itself has taken off. And the hard core
> "minority" of Star Wars fans can be found at RASSM an other internet
> sources. And if the books are aimed at the occasional fan, why strive for
> continuity within the books ? Who do you consider when writing your books
> ? If the hard core element of fans did not exist IMO there would not be a
> necessity to keep a degree of continuity from film to novel to each
> subsquent novel.
Well said!
Anisa
> Anncrispin wrote:
>
> > As to that gentleman who thinks I am a troll...I proved who I was long
ago on
> > this board. <sigh>
> >
>
> And exactly how did you do this? I'm real curious. I can't imagine
anything you
> could possibly do to prove who you are
She posted excerpts from "Rebel Dawn" before it was released. It was
pretty iron-clad proof.
>
> You contradict yourself when you say that words are living to you, and
yet you come
> here regularly. It makes no sense to do so.
No, it doesn't particularly "make sense;" it's just a nice thing for her
to do. It's like a professional ball player who goes out and plays catch
with the underpriveleged kids in the neighborhood.
>
Unless you want to contend that SW books are regularly on the
> best seller list, I don't think your casual reader scenerio works.
Check the paperback bestseller list right now. A.C. Crispin's "Rebel
Dawn" is on it. (Not that I actually understand your point. All Ann has
been trying to say is that, while she loves Star Wars and tries to write
entertaining books related to it, she doesn't think those books [or the
more rabid fans like us here on RASSM] have any real influence on people
like George Lucas or their plans for future films. We (and she kindly
includes herself in that "we" category) are small potatoes compared to the
film audience. I'm not sure how this can be considered an insult.
It's called
> name recognition. But again, in most businesses, product loyalty is
the bread and
> butter. The company that ignores the loyal customers is the company
that goes out
> of business.
How many things have greater name recognition than "Star Wars?"
--Anisa (who admits that she's gotten rather lost in this thread. She
thinks, frankly, that people are screaming at each other without realizing
that they're in almost total agreement.)
Rimrunner
In article <6lhdtm$ove$1...@flex.london.pipex.net>,
Tommy Maguire <tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>My point all along has been that the big corporations, while interested in
>fan
>>opinion to some extent, as it affects their product, are perfectly aware
>that
>>MOST of the people who go to see Star Wars movies don't read Star Wars
>novels,
>>or tech manuals, or play the games, or anything like that. They know SW
>only
>>through the films.
>
>
>So who are the books aimed at ? I don't buy with your reasoning at all. At
>some point Star Wars fans will indulge themselves in the games, books,
>figures, comics, web sites etc. And that goes for the majority of Star Wars
>fans.
Does it? Let's compare the number of people who've seen Star Wars at least
once, whether in the theater or on video, against the number who've read
at least one of the books. I'm willing to bet that the second number is
substantially smaller.
>If we are talking about minorities who would use these types of
>media, why do Lucasfilm bother ?
The books are a sizable moneymaker for Bantam, without Lucasfilm having to
invest all that much. (Yes, there are people on their staff who are paid
to keep novel continuity straight. But think about Lucasfilm's main
business: movie production. The people who keep track of novel continuity
are a minuscule segment of the company. And editors are rarely well paid,
believe me.)
It's good marketing. Even if most people never buy the books, they see the
advertising. They see the books listed on bestseller lists. And the books
being published generates a lot of press.
>And I was talking about this group being a
>minority within all this, not the general Star Wars fan on the street.
>Lucasfilm have pumped millions into the games Force Commander and Rogue
>Squadron due for release later this year. Everyone who owns a PC or N64
>that likes Star Wars will no doubt buy these games, and that would not by no
>means be a minority. Star Wars has has continued it's long reign because of
>the constant additions to it's universe through other media sources, not
>soley through the films.
While I agree that the new wave of SW hype has helped return SW to the
public consciousness, I believe we were talking about SW fans who actually
spend time on RASSM. The number of people in the U.S. alone who have
access to a computer (not necessarily one they own, mind you) is still
quite small. In other countries it's even smaller.
RASSM does make a blip on a few publications' and companies' radars, but
it's a small one.
[snip]
>If the hard core element of fans did not exist IMO there would not be a
>necessity to keep a degree of continuity from film to novel to each
>subsquent novel.
Actually, if I had my druthers, they wouldn't. I think it's caused a big
mess.
But if I had to guess, Bantam is hoping that more people will buy more
than one of the books if they make the storylines fit together. Whether
they're actually doing so is a market research question.
Rimrunner
what, you thought publishing was an art?
Rimrunner
In article <357C3C9E...@mpinet.net>, fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
>
>
>Anncrispin wrote:
>
>> As to that gentleman who thinks I am a troll...I proved who I was long ago on
>> this board. <sigh>
>>
>
>And exactly how did you do this? I'm real curious. I can't imagine anything you
>the people here in here books. Or making statements to the affect in interviews.
Well, Ann and Rich already answered this question, so I'll leave it.
Actually, I wanted to ask you if you'd mind trimming your line lengths to
less than 80 characters. Right now they wrap at something like 82, which
makes your posts difficult to read.
>You contradict yourself when you say that words are living to you, and yet you come
>here regularly. It makes no sense to do so.
Maybe she enjoyed spending time on RASSM and interacting with readers?
Words are MY living, but I come here too. (It doesn't have anything to do
with Star Wars.) There are quite a few professional writers who hang out
here. It's called recreation, y'know?
>And you don't just insult the people here, you insult the sci-fi genre.
Funny, I don't feel insulted.
>People
>who don't read sci-fi, don't pick up the books in the airports. Note the small
>numbers sci-fi books that can be found places like airports and grocery stores.
>Sci-fi readers, like romance readers are writer loyal. Two expections to this
>would be SW and ST books where more that one writer writes the stories. I have
>known many people who read sci-fi and people who don't. People who don't have a
>preference for a specific genre tend to stick with the best sellers list, as does
>the casual reader. Unless you want to contend that SW books are regularly on the
>best seller list, I don't think your casual reader scenerio works.
Actually, the Star Wars books show up on the bestseller lists fairly
regularly.
>It's called
>name recognition. But again, in most businesses, product loyalty is the bread and
>butter. The company that ignores the loyal customers is the company that goes out
>of business.
Which company are you referring to?
The majority of the American publishing industry is run by approximately
six corporations.
Rimrunner
and they're getting fewer every year
Anisa
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.98060...@h4h.com>, Wayne Poe
<lo...@h4h.com> wrote:
> On 8 Jun 1998, Anncrispin wrote:
>
> > And Bantam, Lucasfilm and Del Rey are also aware that the fans who know
> > everything there is to know about the Star Wars print universe are a
minorty, compared to the many readers who will
> > read a Star Wars book on a plane or on the beach.
>
> This "minority" however, is extremely vocal, and DO affect change. When
> Kenner came out with the new SW action figures, making the main characters
> resemble Arnold Scwarzenegger
<snip so that my stupid (but free) newsreader program will let me post
a short reply>
>
> The "casual" SW moviegoer probably wouldn't have cared, but the minority
> who know ship lengths and droid costs did, and affected change.
Was the change really effected by the "vocal minority" who complained, or
by the "silent majority" who just simply refused to buy the cr**py
things? Again, I kind of think most of the money comes from the "casual"
buyers-- the ones who aren't going to buy their 5-year-old a Princess Leia
doll for her birthday if it looks more like "Princess Terminator."
Dark Lord Karno Dal
Tommy Maguire wrote in message <6lhtsr$fho$1...@soap.news.pipex.net>...
>And if Ann finds one of her books being critisised badly, she will stop
>writing novels ?
There is a difference between criticism of one's work and an unprovoked
personal attack, which is what fresca foisted upon Ann.
> And what makes your post any different from
>Fresca's original post ? Or indeed why should Fresca be so different from
>Ann and take abuse like that ?
Simple: feesca's comments have been intended, from square one, to be
abusive. Ann's were not and have never been. As to my response, it was
only a fraction of what fresca deserved, let me assure you.
As I recall offense was taken at one of
>Ann's original posts, but look no harm was done. We are all still here,
>shook it off and got on with life.
No, we are not all still here. Ann is now gone.
My advise to you and Fresca is keep this
>sort of thing away from the group. It bears no relevance to any subject
>matter here and should be kept away.
When people are being run off of the newsgroup by the cras, insensitive, and
idiotic posts of others, it does indeed bear relevance to us all.
Dark Lord Karno Dal
si...@lords.com
Michael Mierzwa
Rimrunner wrote:
On the Statistics of On-Line Populations and Diversity.
> Even allowing for the fact that SF readers, Star Wars fans, and other such
> folks are probably more likely to have net access than your average
> person, the number of SW fans who spend time on this here group is a
> subset of the number of total SW fans, and I'd wager a rather small one. I
> may have flunked statistics, but it's fairly obvious to me that we're a
> small pond.
Actually statistics could be used to argue that RASSM might or might not
represent the American population. ;)
You just stated that a largerly number of SF fans are likely to have
computer access. This implies that there is a tendency for SF fans to
have a skew or bias in favour of technology. In fact, in #rassm Garnet
was suggesting that it is not uncommon for SF fans to also have similar
personalities (she was describing some wild and crazy personality tests
we were playing with).
So *if* SF fans have a certain trend towards technology and a higher
representation on the web or usenet, the question becomes "do the SF
fans present on the usenet show enough diversity to possibly represent
the general population about SW issues; and how many usenet SW fans are
need to represent this population?"
The second of these two questions is subjective. But when USA Today or
Time or CNN runs a poll like "Do you approve of President Clinton?" they
too are effected by skews and are sampling only a fraction of the true
"population" <--- that is what you call "everything you are trying to
represent in statistics".
CNN is only going to sample people who are *interested* enough to answer
yes or no. They can not talk to people who just hang up when phoned,
and I have yet to actually meet somebody who has ever been sampled by
*any* poll other than one conducted on a university campus or the
Neilson's ratings (which I myself have been a sample statistic back in
1988). ;)
NOTE: Just because I've not meet CNN poll people or USA Today or Time or
Newsweek or ABC or whatever doesn't mean they don't exist, but FACPOV it
suggests the possibility that polls tend to focus on a small pool of
people already! :)
Back to statistics. Imagine if you will a poll about the favorite SW
characters asked here (easy one was conducted two weeks ago). There
appears to be a trend that secondary characters like Wedge are very
popular here. :( [NOTE: I tried to interfer with the poll, but our
Wedge stuffed the ballot box as many times as I did, countering my evil
plans.] ;)
Interestingly enough the SW Insider also conducted a poll of SW Insider
readers (not just computer people). And again Wedge scored high. Not
super high, but higher than somebody saying RASSM statistics are not
representative of the US or world opinion on SW might imply! I mean if
our poll was first, I would certainly say there is a better chance of
Wedge being favoured in the general population than 4-LOM, because the
Gand didn't get a single vote here ... the commander got many. :)
I don't think just one sample is enough to set up a cross corelation
function, but statisticans can and then you actually create null
hypothesis to try and disprove the level of confidence of the
cross-corelation.
What does this mean? Well look at other topics in RASS.misc.
People can't agree upon hardly anything. The question is are there
enough people disagreeing on things that they actually represent a
similar level of disagreement in the real population? We've already
seen that favorite character polls aren't too far out of wack (not close
enough to prove the populations are the same ... in fact, I'd say those
two polls are the proof needed to statistically argue that RASSM is not
exactly representative of the larger SW population), and you've already
suggested that SF fans tend to at least be more inclined to use
computers than non SF people.
So .... that brings us back to the original question. If there is
enough disagreement on issues in RASSM, then it is very possible that to
a degree the topics covered in here may reflect some of the diversity of
the full SW fan population. Not perfectly, and certainly not enough
that Lando Calrissian would place a money bet on it. ;)
But when people here all tend to move from the usual mass disagreement,
to mass agreement on say the opinions of a novel then that some "shift"
might be present on a smaller or larger scale in the general poplution.
In fact, attitude shifts, are the best most useful indictor that might
come from lurking in RASSM. :)
If I were really a novelist in disguise, planning to write a book and
had a bit of research time, I would at least lurk or spy on RASSM. ;)
Michael Mierzwa
-If asked about my connections to the Bothan spynet, I will claim the
Mon Calamari don't get along with the Bothans! :)
Rimrunner
I'm thinking it's a question of numbers. The percentage of SW fans who
spend time on this NG is tiny. How many regular readers of RASSM (ooh,
nice alliteration there, Rim) do you know personally. There were three in
the city I live in, and none of them post much anymore.
>Not everyone who
>reads the books are on the ng's, but that doesn' mean that they just read that book
>and forget about forever. I'm sure the people who read HttE when it first came out,
>remembered the particulars when Dark Forces came. To assume that the only people
>who care about continuity are on the ng is myopic.
I didn't see anyone who assumed this. Can you clarify?
[snip]
>When an author of a book comes here and tells us that
>our opinions don't matter, then she is, in effect, telling her hardcore fans to stop
>reading her books.
Whoa, I think you're generalizing a bit here. The way I interpreted Ann's
post is that what we post to RASSM has very little, if any, impact on
Bantam's business decisions. I've certainly seen no evidence of it so far.
Now, could you please explain how this could be construed as her telling
us to stop reading her books? If that's so, why did she participate on
this newsgroup for months?
>> >My point with that post was that people spend a lot of time and energy getting
>> >all het up about "do the books count?" The answer is, they count a little bit,
>> >from time to time,, but only insofar as merchandising (i.e. money) is
>> >concerned. Will they influence movies 7,8,9 assuming GL ever gets around to
>> >making them? Maybe a little bit (remember, we did see the Outrider in the SE)
>> >but most likely not.
>>
>> *shrug* It won't really worry me one way of the other, but it'd be
>> nice to see...
>
>Crispin is rich here. She claims to not to known Lucas but then claims an insight
>into his creative mind. The point is that the only one who really knows how much
>of the books will find their way in the movies is Lucas. For all she knows, he
>hasn't read them as of the time of the interviews she's read. (personally, wouldn't
>take what's said interviews as gospel), but intended to prior to writing the
>scripts. Lucas supposedly went through 50 books on mythology before writing ANH,
>why wouldn't he put some effort into seeing what other authors had done with his
>universe?
Well, reading mythology is one thing, reading fiction is another. The
first is research, and any writer will do that before they start writing,
whether it's fiction or non-fiction, whether it's a novel or a newspaper
article.
There are well over 50 separate pieces of Star Wars fiction out there. Are
you suggesting Lucas should read all of them, when he could just ask a
staff member for a summary?
To me, though, the biggest argument against using the novel material is
that Lucas said (before any of the novels came out, I might add) that the
final trilogy would not include the principal characters from the middle
one. Now, he's been known to change his mind (witness some of the changes
to the SEs), but seeing as how we've heard nothing on the final trilogy
recently (rumors aside), and given the growing complexity of the novel
continuity, I wouldn't be surprised if the books were ignored. ESB ignored
Alan Dean Foster's "Splinter of the Mind's Eye".
>The one thing we do know about Lucas and SW, continiuty, to some degree,
>matters to him. If it didn't he wouldn't have placed restrictions what authors did
>with his characters.
This, I do agree with. If the final tril ever does get made, it'll be
interesting to see what, if anything, he keeps from the books.
>> >People argue about whether Mara Jade or Dash Rendar or people from the books
>> >will turn up in any post-ROTJ films. Almost certainly not. Nobody's going to
>> >turn Tim Zahn's books into movies. That's not the way the Hollywood LFL
>> >mindset works. They want to invent their own characters, not use ones invented
>> >by the novelists. Writers in Hollywood are always the low folks on the totem
>> >pole, and book writers even more so.
>>
>> The impression that I got from the 'Who would you cast in a Zahn
>> trilogy?' thread was that it was pure speculation, nice to see, but
>> knowing that it wouldn't happen...
>
>I agree with you here, Crispin seems to like getting on her soapbox for the sake of
>speaking. Why should it bother her so much that some people here like to discus
>dream scripting ideas. I don't get her. And I have serious doubt that she is who
>she says she is.
She is. She has proven it here before, though it was before you started
posting here.
>She claims no affiliation with Lucas, but then claims to know for
>a fact that Mara Jade would not be used for the sequels. This is one of the
>reasons I doubt her validity. Why would an author who used another writers
>characters be so adamant about how Lucas would not want to use another authors
>characters.
It actually wouldn't surprise me if Lucas didn't. Of course, I'm
speculating. But consider what happens to the average novel when it's
adapted to film. Look at the changes that were made to "Starship Troopers"
or "Johnny Mnemonic" (which was horrid, and just goes to show that Gibson
has some huge karmic debt in his past somewhere).
[snip]
>Refuse to believe that a person who goes out of his way to insure that the
>books, medium he doesn't even write for, follow a few restrictions, would turn
>around and ditch everything written before in some egotistical sweep.
This is actually a very good point.
On the other hand, it could just be a marketing decision. Never
underestimate the power of marketing.
>> >Is this bad? Does that make me a conscienceless mercenary? (Some fans have
>> >actually said similar things to me about both Star Wars and Star Trek books --
>> >that by writing these things for money instead of love, I'm betraying myself
>> >and the fans.)
>>
>> I don't think so. You obviously love SW (I'm making that statement
>> based on reading the Han Solo novels - you've obviously put a lot of
>> effort into them), and you'e getting paid to contribute to it. There'd
>> be a few people here on RASSM who'd jump at the chance to write a SW
>> novel (myself being one of them, and any money I got out of it would
>> be a bonus).
>
>I have a problem believing this if the person that wrote the books. She claims to
>be a writer for money, but then spends a huge amount of time suggesting that her
>fans opiinions don't matter. She seems more like an artful troll.
Don't matter to whom? It seems to me that her point was that the fans'
(namely, RASSM's) opinions don't matter to Bantam Doubleday Dell, and this
I can easily believe. I haven't seen anyone from the publisher hanging
around here, though someone may lurk. But in general, there's one thing
that makes a difference where a publisher's decisions are concerned, and
that's money. Whatever makes the most money gets the vote.
>> >In my opinion, no, it makes me a conscientious writer who knows how to be
>> >professional and work with those in power.
>> >
>> >And yes, my comment about the thirty-six cents was directed to Norm, who is
>> >probably about 12 years old, and doesn't like to read. Arguing with such people
>> >about the merits of the books is a waste of time. I'd much rather spend my
>> >time rapping with people like the NRG readers, frankly.
>>
>> Yep, Norm sounds like a troll to me, too. Killfiling's too good for
>> gits like him.
>
>He may be a troll, haven't noticed one way or the other, but Crispin reads an awful
>lot like a troll. A verbrose troll, but a troll just the same.
Since she's proven that she is who she says she is, has your opinion
changed?
That was a serious question, by the way.
>> >Just because I have a rather clear picture of the average Star Wars reader
>> >being a casual reader who probably doesn't know the difference between Bria
>> >Tharen and Mara Jade doesn't mean that I don't -appreciate- the more informed
>> >readers. I've become an informed reader myself, and I have a lot of respect
>> >for those who know exactly how long the ships are, the background of all the
>> >characters, etc.
>> >
>> >But don't go imagining that the informed readers are perceived by the
>> >publishers as being the -majority- of SW readers. That just isn't so, and
>> >Bantam knows it, and Del Rey knows it, and Lucasfilm knows it.
>>
>> Oh, we're not, but as I said earlier, we're the ones who get up and
>> shout the loudest, and the people who shout the loudest tend to get
>> the most attention.
>
>Why is this person so quick to bite the hands that she claims feeds her? What kind
>of writer was suggest that the vast majority of readers are uninformed? I can see
>the majority movie goer's being blissifully uninformed because not alot of people
>read for pleasure any more, but those that do tend to be faithful to their favorite
>authors. I thought that was the reason that publisher prefer to publish books be
>well known writers. Product loyalty, why does she have such a problem
>understanding the concept?
Define "informed reader".
Define "product loyalty".
Rimrunner
these are serious questions
Rimrunner
[Mierzwa's followup to my post snipped]
While I follow your argument, Michael, my point was that the number of SW
fans here on RASSM is a pretty small subset of SW fans in general. And
while there might be enough to get a pretty good idea of what fans want, I
can think of two reasons why someone doing market research would look
elsewhere:
a. The information as presented here is too disorganized (that's the
nature of Usenet), and
b. The population here, if you will, is skewed toward diehard fans, when
the lion's share of the book-buyers are more likely to be casual fans.
Rimrunner
cranky today due to headache
Rimrunner
In article <6li3s3$mh9$1...@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Tommy Maguire <tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
[snipped numbers]
>Fair enough, if we compare this to total Star Wars novel sales across the
>world in the same time periods then we remain in the minority. But I am
>sure that net users account of a large chunk of those sales and I think it
>is wrong to dismiss that.
I don't see it being dismissed, except maybe by the publishers, and even
then only insofar as their central question is, "If we do this, will we
turn a profit?"
I'd also point out that comparing the number of posts to Usenet to the
number of novels sold in the same time period isn't entirely accurate.
Most of the regular participants on this newsgroup post dozens, if not
hundreds, of times a month. You'd need to break the numbers down into the
actual number of posters discussing the novels (as opposed to discussing
starships or posting flamebait).
And need I mention here that all this started because one person declined
to purchase the novels? Publishers don't go after individuals, they go
after trends. Sometimes they manage to start trends. And a lot of the
time, the editors make their decisions on the fly.
Rimrunner
the deadline's *when*?!
Cheetah!
> anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
--
Ann...
I'm *really* sorry to see you leaving, due to the idiotic posts that
have been directed to you in the past week.. I found that your posts are
NOT insulsting, demeaning, etc. and have enjoyed having discussions with
you - I've also enjoyed your SW books, and have found them hard to put
down, as well as being re-readable..
Please try to stick around, but if you won't - I can't say as I can
really blame you.
Sincerely..
==> Cheetah! <==
... The force is the force, of course, of course...
Anisa
In article <357C1B3E...@mpinet.net>, fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
> John Donchig wrote:
>
[Norm wrote- attribution got snipped]:
> > > To answer your question, I think its you attitude!
> >
> > I'm a latecomer to this thread, but it appears as though Ms. Crispin was
> > attempting to apologize, and was very forthright doing it.
>
> It read more like a left handed apology.
The "lefthanded" part of it was directed at Norm, the troll (actually, not
a troll; trolls at least KNOW they're annoying) who chimes in with such
intelligent comments as "george lucas says the books don't count i don't
like the books i never read one." AFAIC, any attention from Ann Crispin
was more than he merits; he really only deserved one particular finger of
that left hand.
The rest of the post was sincere, a real "insider" trying to give us some
insight into how the whole Star Wars publishing scene works and how it
ties into the rest of the Lucasfilm universe. Unfortunately, that insight
includes the fact that we here are not as important as we like to believe
ourselves. She held up a mirror, and a lot of people here didn't like the
little glimpse of reality it gave us. To paraphrase (ironically) a
certain former Imperial cadet, "Musta hit pretty close to the mark to get
ya all riled up like that."
--Anisa
(who, with this, officially re-lurks-- but not in a huff. 。hau, y'all!)
fresca
First off, a lot of people lie about who are on the newsgroups. I would think
that if Ann Crispin were truly who she claims would be delighted to find that not
everyone takes people at screenname value here. It doesn't take much to pretend
to be someone famous on the net. If everyone bought into the screenname at first
blush, I dare say that a lot more misinformation would be taken as truth.
Newsgroups are not a place a person should go to to learn facts. It's all buyer
beware.
Second, Where does Ms. Crispin get off describing different opinion as a flame.
Yes, I think a lot of what she as said is out to lunch, but that is hardly a
flame. I have agreed with some things she has said, but deagreed with her
reasoning. Namely the possibility that Zahn's trilogy will be the third trilogy.
I would bet money on it, too. But not because Lucas has a colossal ego, or because
he is a slave to total originallity in his creations, but because he has admitted
several times that he wants his work to be a surprise. There is no surprise it is
based on a book. That said I take great exception to her claim that everyone on
this newsgroup is absolutely wrong about things that she claims to be fact.
Especially when she feelly admits that she never spoke directly with Lucas.
If her attitude is "If I say it, it must be so, and any you say to the contrary is
completely wrong," then this ng could only be improved by her absence.
That said, I sincerely doubt that she will go away completely. That fact that she
comes here as often as she has been proves that she is somewhat addicted. She may
change her screen name, she be back, assuming she actually leaves.
She may actually be the writer she claims to be, if so, so needs to learn not to
mess where she sleeps. Which means, if she makes her living off of sci-fi
writing, she should be more respectfull of her hardcore fans. Personally, I feel
better thinking that this person is just a standard troll pretending to be the
author, because it would truly be sad to think of how a woman with that kind of
contempt for her fans making money off them. Maybe she should write an Emperor
series, she's captured his sole perfectly.
fresca
Dark Lord Karno Dal wrote:
> fresca wrote in message <357C1B3E...@mpinet.net>...
>
> >It read more like a left handed apology. And I don't see why we should let
> >the thread die just because she ask that we do. That's not how the ngs
> >work. Thread die when they exhausted and no cares to engage in life
> >support, not because they offend one person who seems to like to pass
> >judgment on others.
>
> Well maybe if you hadn't been so busy making an ass out of yourself, you';d
> have stopped to take a look at what was going on. I assume it was far to
> easy to get your oanties in a wad and strut around like a big bad nitwit
> insulting Ann and being high and mighty. All you've done is managed to run
> off one of the few authors who still bothered to come around here. Ann's
> been nothing but friendly and respectful of everyone on here and has done
> not a damned thing to deserve the ego-boosting tirade you launched at her.
> She is under NO mandate to prove her identity to you or anyone else on here.
> If you didn't believe she was who she claimed to be, then the simple answer
> would have been to refrain from reading her posts. And you dare to mention
> passing judgement on others. Of all the hypocritical baskets of hog $h!t
> I've ever heard in my life. get a damned clue for Christ's sake.
You may like having someone state categorically that your opinion totally stupid
because it was hers, but I don't. Even after admitting that she never met
Lucas, she claimed that her opinion was superior to everyone else's and that we
should stop discusing continuity because of this. Why do you think her "high
and mighty" opinion is so okay to express, but no else's?
> Thank you SO much for spoiling it for the rest of us. I can only hope Ann
> might reconsider and decide to stay, but with self-aggrandizing morons like
> you on here, I can't blame her for not wanting to hang around.
Maybe you'll get lucky and she'll come back after changing her screen name to
Tim Zahn.
Rimrunner
In article <6li685$o56$1...@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Tommy Maguire <tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Does it? Let's compare the number of people who've seen Star Wars at least
>>once, whether in the theater or on video, against the number who've read
>>at least one of the books. I'm willing to bet that the second number is
>>substantially smaller.
>
>sales, no question about that. But what I was refering to was the comment
>that most people that have seen the film have not indulged themselves in
>other items aside from the films. We have the figures, games, comics,
>posters, underwear etc all released with the Star Wars tag and I would
>assume that everyone that has seen Star Wars has at some stage purchased
>some sort of merchandise attatched with the film.
Well, I don't know. Of the above list, I've occasionally bought comics or
books, and (this is the important part) I bought them as light reading for
the lunch counter. The only expectation I had was for an adventure
starring familiar characters.
And at a guess, this may be why Lucasfilm made certain continuity
decisions, such as authors not being allowed to kill off major characters,
or Luke never being allowed to have a long-term love interest. It could be
that changes like these would be too drastic for a casual reader who picks
up a book because they see the Star Wars logo on it.
Unlike most SF, SW books *are* sold in airports and supermarkets. I've
seen them in such places any number of times.
>>The books are a sizable moneymaker for Bantam, without Lucasfilm having >to
>invest all that much. (Yes, there are people on their staff who are paid
>>to keep novel continuity straight. But think about Lucasfilm's main
>>business: movie production. The people who keep track of novel continuity
>>are a minuscule segment of the company. And editors are rarely well paid,
>>believe me.)
>
>Again I don't doubt that for a second. But why does GL appoint guys to take
>care of continuity if it is of little relevance to the grand scheme of
>things ? Why would he commision such established writers such as Ann, Tim
>Zahn etc if the novels were not an integral part of SW ? That is why I
>cannot fathom the point that these novels are aimed at the occasional reader
>for light reading. I feel that because of the work that goes into
>publishing these things and the apparent fluent continuity between each book
>they are not simple items of literature slapped with Star Wars on the cover
>to sell. They are created with the dedication of the hard core elements of
>the fans in mind.
I don't doubt that fandom is considered a niche that the publisher has to
appeal to. On the other hand, I've seen too much SW fiction that most
people on RASSM (those who bothered to venture an opinion, anyway)
loathed. (Roger McBride Allen's books are a good example, "The Crystal
Star" is another.
Another point is something I wanted to mention about the authors: all of
them already wrote for Bantam before they started writing SW. While some,
like Crispin, McIntyre and Zahn, were well established authors with books
currently in print, many of the others (Kathy Tyers, Dave Wolverton, Kevin
Anderson, to cite a few examples) were authors who were previously
published but who didn't have anything in print. Tyers and Wolverton had
only had a book or two published before they got the Star Wars books. And
shortly after their SW books came out, they had new original books
published.
Consider: why doesn't Bantam ask more of its higher-profile writers to do
Star Wars books? While some (the examples I noted above) are well
established writers whose names are currently fairly well known among SF
readers, the others aren't.
Now, you could argue (and you'd probably be right) that more people read
SW books than read SF in general--Star Wars books end up on the bestseller
lists more often, and I remember Kube-McDowell saying that his SW books
sold better than his original fiction. And so, there's no point in the
publisher going for an established writer (whose price tag will probably
be higher, to boot, assuming those kinds of negotiations apply) when the
Star Wars name itself will sell more books.
But enough of those Star Wars books have been sufficiently dismal that
sometimes I really do wonder what Bantam is thinking. Figuratively
speaking; corporations, by nature, are incapable of thought.
>>It's good marketing. Even if most people never buy the books, they see the
>>advertising. They see the books listed on bestseller lists. And the books
>>being published generates a lot of press.
>
>I would say that is a more realistic perspective on things. The novels mean
>that Star Wars is in the public eye and is never really out of mind. As
>would be the case with the games, toys and what have you. But again if this
>was the sole purpose who would by this stuff ? Another thing on the
>occasional reader, I have heard that most if not all the novels are spread
>over trilogies. And the later novels bear a lot of relevance to earlier
>works to make them intelligable to a degree. If this is the case would that
>not disuade occasional readers from buying Star Wars novels ?
Have you noticed that most of those trilogies are published in paperback
only? Why do you think that is?
Remember Ann's comment about sales peaking around the holidays and
summertime? What do you think that means?
I think Bantam (and possibly Lucasfilm as well) is trying to encourage
more people to buy more than one book, for obvious reasons. Maybe it
works, to a sufficient degree that they'll keep doing it.
>>While I agree that the new wave of SW hype has helped return SW to the
>>public consciousness, I believe we were talking about SW fans who actually
>>spend time on RASSM. The number of people in the U.S. alone who have
>>access to a computer (not necessarily one they own, mind you) is still
>>quite small. In other countries it's even smaller.
>
>I think RASSM is the perfect cross section of every Star Wars fan out there.
>And I really believe in terms of numbers that RASSM is very underated.
>Again we are a minority who use the group but I have posted some figures in
>this thread that kind of show we are not that much of a minority. And the
>wealth of information from the users here is astounding. I feel confident
>in asking a question about SW and knowing I will get an answer at most in a
>few hours. And a lot of users of RASSM are also involved in great web sites
>that get many visitors. This is probably a bit over dramatic but RASSM is
>like the basis for all things Star Wars on the internet. Ok, I'll wind my
>neck in :-)
I agree that this NG is an excellent community for SW fans. But when Ann
referred to the casual reader, I think she meant someone who passes
through an airport bookstore looking for something to read on a flight, or
someone who needs to find a present for a SW fan, or even a SW fan who
doesn't necessarily care whether the Executor is 5 miles long. (We do
exist!)
While I love Star Wars and I enjoy the books, I really don't see most of
them as more than a passing diversion, and IF the final tril is ever made,
I really won't care if it ignores the books entirely.
But (and I keep mentioning this because no one ever comments on it), what
if Lucas does make the final tril, and makes it as he said he would
several years ago--that is, so that it doesn't involve the characters from
eps. 4-6 at all? Then the whole question becomes moot, doesn't it?
>>RASSM does make a blip on a few publications' and companies' radars, but
>>it's a small one.
>
>I feel it may be a bigger one than we all give RASSM credit for.
Evidence? Seriously, I haven't seen much sign of it. Yes, Ann did a hell
of a lot of work on her books and spent a lot of time gathering feedback
here (which is why I find it particularly unfair that she's been targeted
lately--she's participated so extensively on this group that I think the
accusation that she doesn't care about the fans is undeserved). But most
of the authors didn't. K-Mac was here for awhile, Kevin Anderson was for
some time (this was a few years back), and Michael Stackpole dropped in
every so often. I think K-Mac was the only author besides Ann who spent a
lot of time here.
But that's authors. Is there any evidence at all that RASSM influences how
Bantam publishes SW novels?
>>But if I had to guess, Bantam is hoping that more people will buy more
>>than one of the books if they make the storylines fit together. Whether
>>they're actually doing so is a market research question.
>
>
>And where could they do their market research ? Right here at RASSM of
>course ?
Booksellers regularly report sales figures to publishers so they know how
their books are doing. That's data that's much easier to interpret than a
lot of discussions that may only be tangentially related to Star Wars and
that all too often degenerates into bickering.
(This isn't a comment on your post, by the way--I find you civil and your
arguments well-reasoned. But though I've only worked in the books business
for a very short time (almost 3 years if anyone cares), what I've seen
makes it very hard for me to believe that we're influencing anything but
each other's opinions, and often not even that.)
Rimrunner
see the truman show!
fresca
Tommy Maguire wrote:
> My advise to you and Fresca is keep this
> sort of thing away from the group. It bears no relevance to any subject
> matter here and should be kept away.
I appreciate your fairminded assessment of the situation. However, I feel
that when resorts to public humilation, they should expect it in kind. I
merely disagree with her assessment of whether Lucas is likely to use things
from the novels and her belief that the opinions of hardcore fans are taken in
account by publishers. I merely stated that sci-fi fans are a different breed
then that average casual reader and as such should be accorded a certain amount
of respect.
Her responses have basically that my opinions were garbage because they weren't
hers, and then used her position as an author to qualify it. Now anyone who's
been on the net for awhile knows that some people on the net lie about who they
are. Since she threw in all of our faces that she was a successful fiction, I
suggested that my belief in her position is dubious. I didn't call her on it,
I just I have no way of knowing. I have know intention of defering my opinion
in light of someones unprovable claim of prominence. I just feel that she is
being very unprofessional about the people on this newsgroup. I only asked
about her proof because she claimed that she proofed it. I was just curious
about how one would go about such a thing. I had an open mind on the subject.
I still do. I am not 100% percent convinced one way or the other. Her stated
proof is dubious, but I don't really care. If it's important to her, so can
mention hobby of cruising the newsgroups in the bio of her next book. I don't
really care. I was half way expected claim she already did it. I have yet to
read any of her books, so she could have. Who knows. Either way, I don't
think it disminshes the validity of anyone's opinion in this ng. As it should
be.
Rimrunner
You know, Fresca, I'm really starting to wonder about you...
In article <357CA0FE...@mpinet.net>, fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
>First off, a lot of people lie about who are on the newsgroups. I would think
>that if Ann Crispin were truly who she claims would be delighted to find that not
>everyone takes people at screenname value here.
Well, the fact of the matter is, when she first showed up here, most of us
DID wonder if she was who she said she was. She proved it at the time, and
Rich Handley vouched for her. Maybe that doesn't carry weight with you,
but Rich has been here for years and has a reputation for being honest.
>It doesn't take much to pretend
>to be someone famous on the net. If everyone bought into the screenname at first
>blush, I dare say that a lot more misinformation would be taken as truth.
That happens anyway.
>Newsgroups are not a place a person should go to to learn facts.
Duh.
>Second, Where does Ms. Crispin get off describing different opinion as a flame.
>Yes, I think a lot of what she as said is out to lunch, but that is hardly a
>flame.
Please explain how "out to lunch" is supposed to be a sophisticated
argument.
And where do YOU get off dismissing her apology to Norm, which IMHO was
more polite than he deserved?
>I have agreed with some things she has said, but deagreed with her
>reasoning. Namely the possibility that Zahn's trilogy will be the third trilogy.
>I would bet money on it, too. But not because Lucas has a colossal ego, or because
>he is a slave to total originallity in his creations, but because he has admitted
>several times that he wants his work to be a surprise. There is no surprise it is
>based on a book. That said I take great exception to her claim that everyone on
>this newsgroup is absolutely wrong about things that she claims to be fact.
>Especially when she feelly admits that she never spoke directly with Lucas.
When I read this, this is where I started wondering. I mean, how did you
manage to distill that from her post? It is true that writers don't get
much respect in the film industry. It is probably true that Lucas would
prefer to work with his own characters rather than someone else's, simply
because he does have a reputation for liking to do things his way.
And what I really don't get is where you think she said that "everyone on
this newsgroup is absolutely wrong". So she never spoke directly with
Lucas. Neither have YOU.
>If her attitude is "If I say it, it must be so, and any you say to the contrary is
>completely wrong," then this ng could only be improved by her absence.
This is complete and utter bullshit. (I'm sorry, usher, but a lesser word
simply would not suffice, and I pray you forgive me.)
This NG was substantially improved when she showed up. And I haven't found
her attitude to be as you describe at all. Since when does well-reasoned =
know-it-all, hmm?
>That said, I sincerely doubt that she will go away completely. That fact that she
>comes here as often as she has been proves that she is somewhat addicted. She may
>change her screen name, she be back, assuming she actually leaves.
Nothing in her previous behavior or actions toward people on this NG has
suggested that she would ever behave this way, and I for one would be
pleased if she changed her mind.
And by the way, dearie, I've been here for over four YEARS. Am I an
addict?
Those of us who come to RASSM regularly come here to participate in a
community of fellow Star Wars fans. You, apparently, come here to insult
(and if your above paragraphs aren't insulting, I don't know what is)
someone who most of the rest of us have been pleased to talk to. Not just
because she wrote a SW trilogy, but because she participated in the
discussions here. And, I might add, far more politely and respectfully
than you have so far.
>She may actually be the writer she claims to be, if so, so needs to learn not to
>mess where she sleeps. Which means, if she makes her living off of sci-fi
>writing, she should be more respectfull of her hardcore fans. Personally, I feel
>better thinking that this person is just a standard troll pretending to be the
>author, because it would truly be sad to think of how a woman with that kind of
>contempt for her fans making money off them. Maybe she should write an Emperor
>series, she's captured his sole perfectly.
You know, just today several people have posted the proof that Ann
provided when she first came here. (Far before you did, I might add.) If
you've seen it and you still believe the above...what can I say, except
*PLONK*
Rimrunner
having a very bad day
Dark Lord Karno Dal
fresca wrote in message <357CA26C...@mpinet.net>...
>You may like having someone state categorically that your opinion totally
stupid
>because it was hers, but I don't. Even after admitting that she never met
>Lucas, she claimed that her opinion was superior to everyone else's and
that we
>should stop discusing continuity because of this. Why do you think her
"high
>and mighty" opinion is so okay to express, but no else's?
If you'd actually READ what she had to say instead of shooting your mouth
off, I think you'd have seen that that is NOT what she was saying. I took
her response to mean that, as an wuthor who had actually dealt with the
folks at Lucasfilm, that she had a more informed opinion. Believe it or
not, there actually are people in the world who know more than you do.
Sorry if that shatters your ego, but it's a fact.
>> Thank you SO much for spoiling it for the rest of us. I can only hope
Ann
>> might reconsider and decide to stay, but with self-aggrandizing morons
like
>> you on here, I can't blame her for not wanting to hang around.
>
>Maybe you'll get lucky and she'll come back after changing her screen name
to
>Tim Zahn.
Or maybe we'll get even luckier and you'll either grow a brain or learn how
to keep your mouth in check, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
Dark Lord Karno Dal
fresca wrote in message <357CA0FE...@mpinet.net>...
>She may actually be the writer she claims to be, if so, so needs to learn
not to
>mess where she sleeps.
True....never know what kind of nut will crawl out of the woodwork and try
to make themselves look intelligent at her expense.
>Which means, if she makes her living off of sci-fi
>writing, she should be more respectfull of her hardcore fans. Personally,
I feel
>better thinking that this person is just a standard troll pretending to be
the
>author,
Much easier to live in your own little fantasy world that way isn't it?
>because it would truly be sad to think of how a woman with that kind of
>contempt for her fans making money off them. Maybe she should write an
Emperor
>series, she's captured his sole perfectly.
You just can't help showing off your lack of intelligence, can you? If you
had ANY idea how incredibly stupid you're making yourself look, you'd be the
one changing your screen name because you'd never be able to show your face
in here again. Then again, if you had half a clue, we wouldn't be having
this discussion, would we?
Dark Lord Karno Dal
fresca wrote in message <357CA64A...@mpinet.net>...
>I have yet to read any of her books
Well this certainly expplains a few things. Please accept my humble
apologies for ever having doubted that you had the facts at hand to even
argue this issue. Quite obviously, one doesn't need to read the work of the
one they're attacking and insulting left and right before initiating a
discussion on them. Obviously your intelligence is so great that you have
managed to mentally divine all of the necessary information to put Ann to
shame and debunk her as a fraudulant troll. How could I have ever doubted
you?
</sarcasm>
fresca
Rimrunner wrote:
> In article <6lhdtm$ove$1...@flex.london.pipex.net>,
> Tommy Maguire <tommym...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >>My point all along has been that the big corporations, while interested in
> >fan
> >>opinion to some extent, as it affects their product, are perfectly aware
> >that
> >>MOST of the people who go to see Star Wars movies don't read Star Wars
> >novels,
> >>or tech manuals, or play the games, or anything like that. They know SW
> >only
> >>through the films.
> >
> >
> >So who are the books aimed at ? I don't buy with your reasoning at all. At
> >some point Star Wars fans will indulge themselves in the games, books,
> >figures, comics, web sites etc. And that goes for the majority of Star Wars
> >fans.
>
> Does it? Let's compare the number of people who've seen Star Wars at least
> once, whether in the theater or on video, against the number who've read
> at least one of the books. I'm willing to bet that the second number is
> substantially smaller.
Your right, but I think we are getting away from the big picture here, which is,
should books companies listen to the critism of books they publish. I say yes.
There are many degrees of sci-fi fans. There's the casual fan who can be drawn
in by commercials to go see they movies. Then there are the book fans. A
subgroup of that would be the series fans. Then there are the merchandising
buyers. These fans come in many degrees too. But the series fans usually follow
the whole series, instead of selecting a book here there. This group would
subdivide when it comes to spinoffs of the series (example: X-wings). Now all
of these fans fall into several levels of consumer activism. Obviously, the more
vocal of the groups would be listen to more. But it should never be assumed that
the silent ones don't agree have any critisms, they just choose not to voice them
for some reason.
> >If we are talking about minorities who would use these types of
> >media, why do Lucasfilm bother ?
>
> The books are a sizable moneymaker for Bantam, without Lucasfilm having to
> invest all that much. (Yes, there are people on their staff who are paid
> to keep novel continuity straight. But think about Lucasfilm's main
> business: movie production. The people who keep track of novel continuity
> are a minuscule segment of the company. And editors are rarely well paid,
> believe me.)
We can't know this because not everyone with an opinion will speak out.
However, if a company like Lucasfilm has bother to set up continuity guidelines
for their authors, they should be willing to honor that dedacation to
continuity. However, they are just being power hungry hippocrats.
> It's good marketing. Even if most people never buy the books, they see the
> advertising. They see the books listed on bestseller lists. And the books
> being published generates a lot of press.
Not that much. I only just started reading them. I went looking for a SW book
in '91, and only found SotME. Otherwise I don't read much sci-fi. I'm a
commitment phobic, so I choose my serials carefully. I think sci-fi readers are
a niche group within the publishing industry. More dedicated to following
serials then romance readers. My friends have always ran in two types. Those
that read sci-fi serials religiously and those that never touch anything sci-fi
unless it's in the theaters and had a good publicity.
> >And I was talking about this group being a
> >minority within all this, not the general Star Wars fan on the street.
> >Lucasfilm have pumped millions into the games Force Commander and Rogue
> >Squadron due for release later this year. Everyone who owns a PC or N64
> >that likes Star Wars will no doubt buy these games, and that would not by no
> >means be a minority. Star Wars has has continued it's long reign because of
> >the constant additions to it's universe through other media sources, not
> >soley through the films.
>
> While I agree that the new wave of SW hype has helped return SW to the
> public consciousness, I believe we were talking about SW fans who actually
> spend time on RASSM. The number of people in the U.S. alone who have
> access to a computer (not necessarily one they own, mind you) is still
> quite small. In other countries it's even smaller.
Yes, but RASSM could be respresentational of the repeat customer. The people the
publishers can count to buy the books. Some people wont read SW novels because
there are so many of them. I know it took me awhile before I decided to take the
plunge.
> RASSM does make a blip on a few publications' and companies' radars, but
> it's a small one.
But the opinion of RASSM and those that write letters to the company should be
taken into account because that are loyal enough to make the effort. The person
that simply picks a book off of the shelf just for something to read will read
what's in front of him/her. But in my experience, a sci-fi reader cares about
continuity, they may not always speak up, but that should never be taken as a
sign that they don't care. Just they didn't think the publishers care about
there opinion. These are the silent majority. The people that start reading the
book, and then when continuity faulters, decided whether or not that are going to
ignore the flaws and read on, or they just stop reading and the publisher never
knows. There customers are not stupid. They'll notice if the X-wing all of
sudden can't jump into hyperspace, or if Leia has three kids in one book and two
in a later book, or if Mara Jade seems to like Luke in one book, but couldn't
care less in another.
> >If the hard core element of fans did not exist IMO there would not be a
> >necessity to keep a degree of continuity from film to novel to each
> >subsquent novel.
>
> Actually, if I had my druthers, they wouldn't. I think it's caused a big
> mess.
If there was no continuity in SW books, I would never have read anything past the
adaptations.
fresca
Rimrunner wrote:
> >You contradict yourself when you say that words are living to you, and yet you come
> >here regularly. It makes no sense to do so.
>
> Maybe she enjoyed spending time on RASSM and interacting with readers?
>
> Words are MY living, but I come here too. (It doesn't have anything to do
> with Star Wars.) There are quite a few professional writers who hang out
> here. It's called recreation, y'know?
I don't know if you've realized it, but coming is kind of a major time suck. If I were
getting paid to write novels, I would not take a break to come here and claim my morally
superiority because I'm a published writer. I would take breaks for food, sleep,
physical recreation and family. Since I am in between semesters, I have plenty of time
to burn here. Otherwise, I would keep my appearances here to my days off.
> >People
> >who don't read sci-fi, don't pick up the books in the airports. Note the small
> >numbers sci-fi books that can be found places like airports and grocery stores.
> >Sci-fi readers, like romance readers are writer loyal. Two expections to this
> >would be SW and ST books where more that one writer writes the stories. I have
> >known many people who read sci-fi and people who don't. People who don't have a
> >preference for a specific genre tend to stick with the best sellers list, as does
> >the casual reader. Unless you want to contend that SW books are regularly on the
> >best seller list, I don't think your casual reader scenerio works.
>
> Actually, the Star Wars books show up on the bestseller lists fairly
> regularly.
I have yet to see them in my grocery store.
> >It's called
> >name recognition. But again, in most businesses, product loyalty is the bread and
> >butter. The company that ignores the loyal customers is the company that goes out
> >of business.
>
> Which company are you referring to?
Microsoft is one. I personally don't believe that they make the best software, but a
lot of people do. Miniseries. When people watch the first installment and it's good,
they comeback for the next one. Publishing. People who read Danielle Steel, read all
of her books. I don't, but I've known a lot of people who do.
> The majority of the American publishing industry is run by approximately
> six corporations.
Maybe, but those publishers give huge advances to popular writers because they know that
people come for more when they like the author, and are more likely to comeback for a
series. People have only seen Interview of the Vampire, the movie, think that they
whole story. People who have read the book, and liked it, have gone to read all of the
books in the series. And some have gone on to read her other serials.
Cheetah!
Dark Lord Karno Dal wrote:
> Or maybe we'll get even luckier and you'll either grow a brain or learn how
> to keep your mouth in check, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
ROTFL! nice...
==> Cheetah! <==
... Confucious say: Baseball wrong. Man with 4 balls cannot walk.
Michael Mierzwa
Rimrunner wrote:
>
> [Mierzwa's followup to my post snipped]
>
> While I follow your argument, Michael, my point was that the number of SW
> fans here on RASSM is a pretty small subset of SW fans in general. And
> while there might be enough to get a pretty good idea of what fans want, I
> can think of two reasons why someone doing market research would look
> elsewhere:
>
> a. The information as presented here is too disorganized (that's the
> nature of Usenet), and
I'm not so sure. If I wanted to read, I would use a search filter like
dejanews, get a feel for the nature of discussions in a group in about
one week of reading (a paid internet can do this maybe). And then focus
on those threads.
> b. The population here, if you will, is skewed toward diehard fans, when
> the lion's share of the book-buyers are more likely to be casual fans.
Yes. But think of it this way, if I take as sample of people's
political parties here in the hopes of finding the trend of full SW
population. And maybe I find something like this from the American
readers:
Democrats: 30%
Republicans: 25%
Libertarians: 1%
Greens: 1%
Peace and Freedom: 1%
Reform: 1%
American Independents: 1%
Non-Partisan: 40%
This is just an imaginary result of a poll here on RASSM. What might
this say if we don't know anything about the larger population?
Well, since there isn't a skew on this issue (i.e. we all hypothetically
split equally), then you could argue statistically that you could use
RASSM to infer information about the general population. The next
question is what is the margin of error (which is based on how many
people are surveyed). If the sample is from 300 people, then I'd say
that this is good data. If the sample is from 30 people, I wouldn't bet
squat on it.
OK, so the next question is what does political afilliation have to do
with "hardcore" SW fans? Well, hardcore really only means
"self-selected". If I can't agree with people about say the nature of
the Force, and *if* most of us can't agree with each other, then again,
I'd say it is safe to say that RASSM might actually be representative
even if RASSM is composed of hardcore fans.
The key is "Is Rassm balanced or skewed?" A causal buyer might not have
*strong* opinions about Darth Vader, the Force, the physics of a TIE
fighter, or Luke's love life. And if pressed on the issues, they might
be easily convinced to change their minds (at least more so than we
might be). But they still are fans, and in theory might have the same
opinions just at a different intensity than we do.
My kid brother and I exchange SW novels and always talk about what we
like and dislike. Generally we like about the same stuff, but he is
much more interested in ships and navies and aliens (yes, he is more
alien crazy than I!) where I get more into physics and the Force and
spies. He doesn't post in RASSM (imagine having two alien loving
Mierzwa's here), but he and many other fans still have opinions ... they
just don't get the chance to express them publically! :)
Look at the letters to the editor that sometimes appear in the SW
magazines. While I don't see many of those names here in RASSM, I think
those people are just as hardcore or at the very least have their own
unique opinions.
Statistics only really require that you somehow capture a large enough
sample and that the sample is representative of the true population.
Type I and Type II errors result from failures of the sample population
to represent the full population and I *do* agree that statistically I
would be very uncomfortable about making any bets based on the small
population of RASSM. {READ: the sample size is too small, even Lando
would hesitate to place a bet on many RASSM polls}
However, I wouldn't mind making some crude assumptions based on the
small RASSM population. And the types of things I look for are shifts
form disagreements (our normal mode of operation) to agreements. If
suddenly people like say myself and others who tend to hold totally
different views on something start agreeing ... then I'd say it is a
good bet that TK421 and DS114 also might find themselves closer to
agreement. In english, if something generates stronger opinions than
normal here, it might be doing so outside of RASSM as well. ;)
> Rimrunner
> cranky today due to headache
Going to sleep??? ... that is the only cure that works for me. :(
Michael Mierzwa
-of course I will never admit to being cranky! ;)
Jill Marie Fritsche
As a very dedicated reader of the SW boods since 1978, I'm just going to
throw in my 2¢ here.
1> The publishers don't really care what the hardcore fans think. <GL
thinks even less...see Skywalking...> They want the books marketable to
the general public. SW books are not some obscure sci-fi cult books.
They are mainsteam.
2> Almost all of the SW movels have been on the NY Times best seller
list. In grocery stores too!
3> Newbies shoud do their homework before they insult SW
authors.....All fresca had to do was to look up some old threads from
Mar or Apr. Ann has never been rude, or 'thrown her weight around', or
put herself on a pedestal. She has taken criticism quite gracefully
IMHO.
4> Rich Handley's word on novel authors and facts should be good enough
for anyone on this group.
5> Ann C. Crispin put more time and effort into her trilogy than any
author I know of, and, if you had read the books, you would know it
shows. She took opinions and did her homework. I think she has a
great respect for fans....maybe not with rassm now.....
6> Ann had said before that she wasn't going to stay long, as she had
another project coming up, so I really don't think we're running her
off...but I do hope she pops her head in once in a while like K-Mac.
Ditto with what rim said, if I missed anything. ;-)
~~jill marie
Isn't it amazing, all the people who can read English, but not
understand it?
Tommy Maguire
And if Ann finds one of her books being critisised badly, she will stop
justify her own comments and attack criticism directed against her. I agree
with you that she is under no obligation to justify who she is, no one is.
But I agree with Fresca that the thread should die of it's own accord, not
because we are told we should let it because of objection to a comment. Ann
is an author and part of the subject matter discussed here is the Star Wars
novels. And if people feels that Ann's writing is not to their taste or
disagrees with her comments to other threads, it will be posted. But nobody
should be subjected to any sort of verbal abuse and attacked for their
comments in the NG. If anyone has a personal problem with anyone posting
stuff here, keep it personal. As you know Dark Lord I offered you opinions
in the past before about other postings you had made. And I had the
courtesy to keep it personal. And what makes your post any different from
Fresca's original post ? Or indeed why should Fresca be so different from
Ann's original posts, but look no harm was done. We are all still here,
Tommy Maguire
I am really sorry to hear this Ann. And I am sorry to see you having to
justify who you are just to be around the group. Again, at the risk of
sounding repetitive, I am not a reader of any of the novels. But I am sure
that I speak on behalf of the majority that your postings have been a great
contribution here and a joy to read.
I don't think that you were being attacked personally for your comments
surrounding the novel readers here. The attacks I think were pointed more
at the industry you are involved in. I had dissagreement with what you said
but that was not directed at you personally. As I also said before I have
nothing but admiration for yourself and other SW writers who can create such
a following amongst such ardent fans.
I have had people disagree to a great extent with things that I have posted
but that will never get me. I have also been flamed for things I have said
(and also things I was not aware of) but I will always rise above that.
There was an incident I was involved in with the group were I felt I could
no longer be a part of things here. The abusive post I got was unreal. But
Rich and other RASSMers convinced me to stick around. I looked at things
and decided the few positives outweighed the many negatives and I am still
posting my own unique type of drivel :-) Never let anyone get you down Ann.
I am sure if you get adverse criticism (constructive criticism) on your
books you will not put down your pen and stop writing. It never takes any
amount of brain power to ridicule someone though. And blatant abuse should
be looked at as mindless and empty comments with no depth and meaning.
Well I really do hope you reconsider leaving the group. And just because
you are no longer going to be involved with Star Wars does not mean that you
are no longer wanted here. Putting aside your involvment with the novels,
your posts alone justify you having a permanent place of residence here.
But whatever your decision, all the best wishes for the future. And who
knows, I might just buy one of your novels :-)
Take good care,
Tommy
Tommy Maguire
>The U.S. probably has a greater percentage of its population online than
>any other country in the world right now (the second, third, and
>fourth--not necessarily in that order--are probably England, Germany, and
>Japan). And yet, I forget the exact number, but it's somewhere below 10
>percent, have access to the Internet.
>This ain't five years ago. In other words, when most people access the net
>these days, it's through the Web. And you wouldn't believe how few of
>these people have even HEARD of Usenet, let alone use it. In other words
>(2), the number of people who are on Usenet is a subset of the people who
>are on online. Which is, even in the U.S., a small fragment of the
>population.
There have been approximatley 100 million postings to Usenet since March
1995 worldwide. This information is courtesy of Deja News and this
information covers 15,000 newsgroups. This would work out approximatley at
33,333,333 postings per year not taking into account the annual growth of on
line users. RASSM as had 130,000 approx postings since Jan 1st 1998. There
have been 560,000 approx postings on the subject of Star Wars across all
newsgroups and 46,000 approx postings on Star Wars books and 12,000 of those
refer specifically to the novels. That's a lot of discussion and these
figures all fall short of the same time period last year by little over
2,000 posts approx. Break it down whatever way you like. Even if we put
this down to regular posters, who regular would they need to be to hit this
figure ? And this does not take into account a further 10,000 newsgroups
which have not been archived at Deja News.
Tommy Maguire
>Does it? Let's compare the number of people who've seen Star Wars at least
>once, whether in the theater or on video, against the number who've read
>at least one of the books. I'm willing to bet that the second number is
>substantially smaller.
I don't doubt for a second that the book sales run second fiddle to ticket
sales, no question about that. But what I was refering to was the comment
that most people that have seen the film have not indulged themselves in
other items aside from the films. We have the figures, games, comics,
posters, underwear etc all released with the Star Wars tag and I would
assume that everyone that has seen Star Wars has at some stage purchased
some sort of merchandise attatched with the film.
>The books are a sizable moneymaker for Bantam, without Lucasfilm having >to
invest all that much. (Yes, there are people on their staff who are paid
>to keep novel continuity straight. But think about Lucasfilm's main
>business: movie production. The people who keep track of novel continuity
>are a minuscule segment of the company. And editors are rarely well paid,
>believe me.)
Again I don't doubt that for a second. But why does GL appoint guys to take
care of continuity if it is of little relevance to the grand scheme of
things ? Why would he commision such established writers such as Ann, Tim
Zahn etc if the novels were not an integral part of SW ? That is why I
cannot fathom the point that these novels are aimed at the occasional reader
for light reading. I feel that because of the work that goes into
publishing these things and the apparent fluent continuity between each book
they are not simple items of literature slapped with Star Wars on the cover
to sell. They are created with the dedication of the hard core elements of
the fans in mind.
>It's good marketing. Even if most people never buy the books, they see the
>advertising. They see the books listed on bestseller lists. And the books
>being published generates a lot of press.
I would say that is a more realistic perspective on things. The novels mean
that Star Wars is in the public eye and is never really out of mind. As
would be the case with the games, toys and what have you. But again if this
was the sole purpose who would by this stuff ? Another thing on the
occasional reader, I have heard that most if not all the novels are spread
over trilogies. And the later novels bear a lot of relevance to earlier
works to make them intelligable to a degree. If this is the case would that
not disuade occasional readers from buying Star Wars novels ?
>While I agree that the new wave of SW hype has helped return SW to the
>public consciousness, I believe we were talking about SW fans who actually
>spend time on RASSM. The number of people in the U.S. alone who have
>access to a computer (not necessarily one they own, mind you) is still
>quite small. In other countries it's even smaller.
I think RASSM is the perfect cross section of every Star Wars fan out there.
And I really believe in terms of numbers that RASSM is very underated.
Again we are a minority who use the group but I have posted some figures in
this thread that kind of show we are not that much of a minority. And the
wealth of information from the users here is astounding. I feel confident
in asking a question about SW and knowing I will get an answer at most in a
few hours. And a lot of users of RASSM are also involved in great web sites
that get many visitors. This is probably a bit over dramatic but RASSM is
like the basis for all things Star Wars on the internet. Ok, I'll wind my
neck in :-)
>RASSM does make a blip on a few publications' and companies' radars, but
>it's a small one.
I feel it may be a bigger one than we all give RASSM credit for.
>Actually, if I had my druthers, they wouldn't. I think it's caused a big
>mess.
And endless NG threads :-)
Tommy Maguire
I think I had a bad choice of wording in my post. I understand fully that
Ann was merely trying to explain the way the industry works and it was not
her intention or upset anyone here. I haven't misunderstood what Ann was
trying to say, I just addressed my response towrds Ann rather than the
subjext I was tring to address. I have read Ann's posts and I know she has
never been abusive or made offensive remarks about anyone here, or anyone at
all for that matter. She has always given thoughtful responses to all the
topics she has been involved in. And it is great to see someone involved so
closely involved with Star Wars to actually get involved with the fans. So
Ann if any of my comments have upset you I am truly sorry. I did not mean
to draw my criticism at you, that was never my intention. I know you are
not dismissive of the group, you have been far from it. You have always
taken the time to respond to everyone here and I think we should all be
grateful for that given that your profession must be very time consuming.
Again, I cannot apologise enough to you Ann, and everyone on the group for
my poor choice of words on the subject.
>With all due respect, I think that you have misunderstood Ann's post
>greatly. She was not, in any way, dismissing RASSM or anyone here.
>Ann, in fact, has been a major proponent of fandom -- so much so that
>she literally spent *hours* at a time on the phone, day after day,
>with me and others while writing the Han Solo Trilogy, just to make
>sure to get all the tiniest details right for those fans who take
>details seriously -- and she has been very gracious and friendly to
>everyone here. I think it's a shame that you're mis-interpreting what
>she said so much, because you're getting an inaccurate picture of her
>as a result.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Rich Handley (Card...@unix.asb.com)
>
Mattemerso
<<I know several of the current authors, and I don't know
ANY who took the time and effort to get things write that Ann did, nor
any as interested in the fans as she is.>>
I like to think Mike Stackpole is the same way. It angers me to no end that yet
another author has been driven from the boards. I was just working up the
courage to post a thank you letter to Ann, for writing such wonderful books and
making such enduring characters. I hope, regardless of wheather Ann is
listening or not, she knows that we do truly appricate the extra mile she went
to to write the books. I sincerely hope she does write a few more. God knows
I'll always think of Ann everytime I read one of her books or her short
stories. Bluntly, Ann is one of the best Star Wars writers ever. Period. That
is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
MTFBWY,
Matt
Tommy Maguire
>I don't see it being dismissed, except maybe by the publishers, and even
>then only insofar as their central question is, "If we do this, will we
>turn a profit?"
Just of the record I am refering to the publishing industry. They seem to
be more interested in profit rather than satisfying the readers needs. But
thankfully the readers needs have been catered for by the writers.
Tommy Maguire
I think what has happened here is a gross misinterpretation of posts. It
steemed through Ann's comment about RASSM. That was taken as Ann's personal
view and I had to read twice to see that it was not. With the greatest of
respect to Ann but the original post left a bit open to various
interpretation. This then steemed a short burst of outrage amongst one or
two members of the group who seen fit to point out to Ann their views on the
matter. Again, bad choice of wording on my behalf may have lead Ann to
believe that she was the point of my frustration. Although I did make the
point in a few of my responses that I had respect for Ann and the other
writers involved with SW and it was not a personal attack, I maybe did not
clarify this enough. And Norm bounders in with his attack on books and
authors he has not read. Ok he had an opinion, not an educated one, but
none the less an opinion. Ann duly responded to Norm thoughtfully, the at
time sarcastically, to clarify her stand on the subject. And then Fresca
gave thoughtful response but launched it on the premise that Ann's comment's
were based on her own opinion. This then started into a thread all of it's
own. Bear in mind also that Fresca and Norm were not the only ones who took
exception to Ann about her post. I only mention them because they seem to
be bearing the brunt, especially Fresca, of all this. And I think Fresca
more so because he continued to justify his opinion throughout the thread.
And the question about Ann being who she really was seemed to be the final
straw. I know there are people in RASSM that have been duped before and I
can understand someone being sceptical about a famous name within the group.
But it has been established in the past and again in this thread that Ann
Crispin is very much a part of the group. That I think we can all conside a
closed subject. Nevertheless, all these events have prompted Ann to
withdraw from the group which I think is very sad. She also mentioned the
fact that she was concerned that this whole thing was going to degenerate
into name calling. So one of the RASSM regulars decides to post the most
abusive post yet towards Fresca. I just want to say to Ann is that sort of
response to anyone here is not representative of me and, at the risk of
assumption, any of the other RASSMers, with a few minor exceptions.
Personal attacks do not belong here. Personal problems with posters should
be kept just that, personal. As justified as Dark Lord felt with his
attack, I am sure Fresca felt the same in his attacks on Ann. IMO there is
no difference between either of you. You have made attacks on individuals
and failed to notice that the reason Ann is departing is because of this.
Both of you start growing up, you are both capable of making good
contributions to this group, as you both have done in the past.
fresca
Anisa wrote:
> In article <357C3C9E...@mpinet.net>, fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
>
> > Anncrispin wrote:
> >
> > > As to that gentleman who thinks I am a troll...I proved who I was long
> ago on
> > > this board. <sigh>
> > >
> >
> > And exactly how did you do this? I'm real curious. I can't imagine
> anything you
> > could possibly do to prove who you are
>
> She posted excerpts from "Rebel Dawn" before it was released. It was
> pretty iron-clad proof.
Okay, I don't know you from a hole in the ground, but I'll take your word for
it. But does that really give her opinions of what Lucas might do with the
sequels any more credibility than anyone else here? I think not. And does her
being the real Ann Crispin really mean that I should take every claim of
celebrity on the net at face value? Again, I see no reason to make myself into
a victim for the ego's of others.
> > You contradict yourself when you say that words are living to you, and
> yet you come
> > here regularly. It makes no sense to do so.
>
> No, it doesn't particularly "make sense;" it's just a nice thing for her
> to do. It's like a professional ball player who goes out and plays catch
> with the underpriveleged kids in the neighborhood.
Fine. But this is not the place for ego stroking. I would definately have more
respect for her as a writer is she came here using a pseudonym instead of
declaring her opinion superior to everyone else. If we were discussing her
books, they would be one thing. But we weren't. Or at least I wasn't. And
with her attitude towards her readership wouldn't want to read them. Again, I
don't think being famous, in any sense of the word, gives her opinions any
greater value than anyone else's. Now if she used logically deduction to
validate her opinion, I could respect her opinion even if I disagreed with
them. But she doesn't. At least not with the opinions I read.
> Unless you want to contend that SW books are regularly on the
> > best seller list, I don't think your casual reader scenerio works.
>
> Check the paperback bestseller list right now. A.C. Crispin's "Rebel
> Dawn" is on it. (Not that I actually understand your point. All Ann has
> been trying to say is that, while she loves Star Wars and tries to write
> entertaining books related to it, she doesn't think those books [or the
> more rabid fans like us here on RASSM] have any real influence on people
> like George Lucas or their plans for future films. We (and she kindly
> includes herself in that "we" category) are small potatoes compared to the
> film audience. I'm not sure how this can be considered an insult.
If she kept to just her opinion, fine. But no, she rattled off her pedigree as
if it were gold when she proclaimed my opinions totally worthless. Now if
that's not trolling, I don't know what is. 'I'm superior to you, so mine is the
opinion that counts' just don't cut as intelligent debate.
> It's called
> > name recognition. But again, in most businesses, product loyalty is
> the bread and
> > butter. The company that ignores the loyal customers is the company
> that goes out
> > of business.
>
> How many things have greater name recognition than "Star Wars?"
This is out of context. My point is that regular readers are the ones who the
books. Since I was told that publishers to not count fan opinions, in the
publishing industry as a whole, I spoke of the book industry as a whole and made
reference to loyal readers. Readers who find authors they like to read and then
go on to read more books by those authors. Also stated that people who buy
books that are part of series, continue to buy from that series. SW fits in
this category. In my experience casual readers don't opt for sci-fi books, or
books that are part of a series of books. The hardcore fans do. Yes, SW has
name recognation, but the hardcore fans buy the books and the merchandise.
Companies have to listen to their fan base. If RASSM is part of that fan base,
than their opinions count. Now, can your explain to me why the fact that I am
not Ann Crispin, means that my opinion stupid?
James Watson
Rich Handley wrote:
>
> fresca <fre...@mpinet.net> wrote:
> >And exactly how did you do this? I'm real curious. I can't imagine anything you
> >the people here in here books. Or making statements to the affect in interviews.
>
> That's exactly what she did, fresca. Look in the Acknowledgments
> pages of Rebel Dawn. Then look on page 19. You'll find me listed in
> both places, first as a thank-you, then as a character.
Yes, *BUT* how do we know who *YOU* are Mr. Handley?
How do we know *YOU* are the same guy mentioned in the
novel? HMmmmmmm???
Can you provide us of proof of your identity? How so
we know you are not some shill stooge of Ms. Crispin??
Where were you when Kennedy was shot?!
;)
> >And you don't just insult the people here, you insult the sci-fi genre.
>
> Oh, get real. You **clearly** haven't read anything she's written, if
> you think that. Her post said nothing even remotely resembling that,
> so you might want to read more carefully in the future. However, I
> strongly suspect you are merely a troll, so I doubt your attitude will
> change because of anything I or anyone else here might say.
Fresca has posted here for a little while, but I too am
confused as to where all this 'negative attitude' crap is coming
from. All this seems to track back to Ann's response to Norm. Now,
considering Norm's post was inflamatory and accusatory, I though
Ann handled herself quite well. Better then I would have. I would
have just said "Shut up, asshole" and moved on.
Fresca, may I suggest that you go back and read Norms'
post and then Ann's so you can get an objective look at the situation.
Otherwise, I believe you are basing your opinion on an incomplete
picture.
--
wat...@iamerica.net (-o-)