Lucas Facing Potential Legal Action Over Dinotopia
Loren Phillips
is causing great debate in the entertainment industry. James Gurney,
author of "Dinotopia" is being pressured by the film production industry
to hold Lucas accountable for plagiarism. Gurney spoke to Loren
Phillips of EchoStation.com about the matter, and the history of
production of his "Dinotopia" film having connections to the production
crew of "Phantom Menace". Read the entire article at
www.echostation.com
John Savard
>James Gurney,
>author of "Dinotopia" is being pressured by the film production industry
>to hold Lucas accountable for plagiarism.
He should tell the film production industry to get lost, since he
would be wasting millions on legal fees - and it is *extremely*
unlikely he would get anywhere.
Even in cases of obvious plagiarism, plaintiffs often lose.
I have no idea how anyone could even imagine that TPM was plagiarized
from anything - the Star Wars movies are not only original, they are
unique.
John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://members.xoom.com/quadibloc/index.html
MPSpillers
>from anything - the Star Wars movies are not only original, they are
>unique.
Not true. Open any Dinotopia storybook to any page and you'll see the Naboo
city of Theed - pretty much verbatim.
I've never heard of "visual" plagarism as opposed to plagarizing words and plot
though, so it should be interesting to see what the lawyers decide with this
one.
dave phillips
> I have no idea how anyone could even imagine that TPM was plagiarized
> from anything - the Star Wars movies are not only original, they are
> unique.
overwhelming case that Lucas in fact *did* lift things wholesale from
Dinotopia.
- dave
Sakura
You know, I did...and I /still/ don't see the supposed 'connection'. The
ending parade 'eerily like' the one from TPM? I just don't get that from
the small and indistinct Dinotopia picture that's been referenced. Going
point-by-point on the 'similarities' I've seen mentioned:
* A big lizard with people riding on it's back
That thing they're riding in is a howdah, and it's used in the real world
- a covered pavilion carried on the back of an elephant. Is this a case
of Lucas ripping off Gurney, or a case of both of them looking at how
real-world people ride on real-world giant animals?
* children scattering flowers
I can hardly begin to talk about this. This idea was not original to
Gurney. People scattering flower petals in front of VIPs is an old, old
real-world custom. It happens at weddings. It turned into confetti and
'ticker-tape parades'
* Gungans riding bipedal lizards
I have to wonder: if the Gungans rode Tauntauns from ESB, would anyone
have complained? Is it just because the Gungans ride lizards that people
are seeing these similarities?
Oddly enough, nobody seems to mention the things that are /different/ from
the 'Dinosaur Parade' painting, like the ranks upon ranks of Gungan
soldiers marching along and the Gungan musicians with those weird
saxohorns.
This controversy makes me want to go back and look for
pictures/paintings/movies/etc of things happening in India - illustrations
from Kipling novels or films, for example. I'm willing to bet that we'll
find images that resemble both scenes that are dated well before both
Lucas and Gurney.
As for the similarities between Theed and Waterfall City:
Again, I just don't see it. The architecture looks completely different
to me, the colors are different, the surrounding landscape is different.
Gurney may well have suggested green domes for Waterfall City in the
Dinotopia film, but the book had red tile roofs, and if (as he states) he
wants to avoid looking like TPM, he can just go back to his original
vision, yes?
J
--
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - je...@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Loren Phillips
>Again, I just don't see it. The architecture looks completely different
> to me, the colors are different, the surrounding landscape is different.
> Gurney may well have suggested green domes for Waterfall City in the
> Dinotopia film, but the book had red tile roofs, and if (as he states) he
> wants to avoid looking like TPM, he can just go back to his original
> vision, yes?
I guess the overwhelming fact is that there isn't just one similarity, but
several. And that Lucas himself was involved in meetings regarding production
of the Dinotopia movie. AND that production artists went from the Dinotopia
project to the Phantom Menace project. Lucas wanted to do the Dinotopia film
because he thought the parade scene would be a great project for ILM. Since
business negotiations fell apart over Lucas directing the film, he wasn't able
to do "Dinotopia"...but he sure found a way to do that parade scene, didn't
he?
Loren Phillips
MMeazark
>but he sure found a way to do that parade scene, didn't
>he?
I really hope you aren't trying to insinuate that Lucas did not
possibly already have his parade scene in the plans or in his
mind. If so, please provide proof.
- MM
John Savard
quoting me:
>>I have no idea how anyone could even imagine that TPM was plagiarized
>>from anything - the Star Wars movies are not only original, they are
>>unique.
>Not true. Open any Dinotopia storybook to any page and you'll see the Naboo
>city of Theed - pretty much verbatim.
>I've never heard of "visual" plagarism as opposed to plagarizing words and plot
>though, so it should be interesting to see what the lawyers decide with this
>one.
Hmm. At least now I know what this is about.
However, I'd still be dubious. Likely, Theed was based on a certain
style and period of *Earthly* architecture, with fantasy elements
added, and so it could well resemble the architecture in another
fantasy work.
Just as M. C. Escher can't copyright the south of Italy...no, I still
think that the case is not worth pursuing. But I'll need to look
closely at Dinotopia to be positive, of course.
dave phillips
MMeazark wrote:
> I really hope you aren't trying to insinuate that Lucas did not
> possibly already have his parade scene in the plans or in his
> mind. If so, please provide proof.
Sure, he had "a parade scene" or something similar in mind...every one
of his movies (at least since the SE's) have had "the big finale"...but
the bipedal dinosaurs, large lumbering dinosaurs, and all the other
similarities between Dinotopia and the end of TPM are just *way* too
frequently occurring.
Plus, add to those facts the little tidbit that Lucas didn't start
writing TPM until well *after* he'd seen the Dinotopia setups, and that
he called Gurney *immediately* after the movie opened (most likely after
everyone started saying "Uhh...George? That's sort of Dinotopia you've
put on screen..."), lend credence to the theory that even HE knows he
did it.
George Lucas is NOT god, nor is he infallible, nor is he above pocketing
storylines wholesale from other movies when it suits him: please
reference the entire pod race/Ben Hur connection, among others.
- dave
AxL
>Sure, he had "a parade scene" or something similar in mind...every one
>of his movies (at least since the SE's) have had "the big finale"...but
>the bipedal dinosaurs, large lumbering dinosaurs, and all the other
>similarities between Dinotopia and the end of TPM are just *way* too
>frequently occurring.
Hey, there were dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, which came out way
before this Dinotropia crap. Maybe Spielberg (he did Jurassic I think)
should be the one suing, according your your flawed logic.
>Plus, add to those facts the little tidbit that Lucas didn't start
>writing TPM until well *after* he'd seen the Dinotopia setups, and that
>he called Gurney *immediately* after the movie opened (most likely after
>everyone started saying "Uhh...George? That's sort of Dinotopia you've
>put on screen..."), lend credence to the theory that even HE knows he
>did it.
I'm afraid the basic story of Episodes I - III was in place well
over 20 years ago. Nice try, tho.
>George Lucas is NOT god, nor is he infallible, nor is he above pocketing
>storylines wholesale from other movies when it suits him: please
>reference the entire pod race/Ben Hur connection, among others.
Hey, I saw a silent movie from the 1920's hat had some cars
racing. Every movie since that has featured a vehicle race must have
"pocketed" that storyline, again according to your flawed logic.
--
-AxL a...@wpcr.plymouth.edu "In Christianity, neither morality nor religion
j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu Come into contact with reality at any point."
http://mindwarp.plymouth.edu/~axl - Nietzsche
Tragic Lad
> to do "Dinotopia"...but he sure found a way to do that parade scene, didn't
> he?
>
> Loren Phillips
And Gurney has cornered the market on parades, when exactly?
Now, admittedly, I haven't read the Dinotopia stories - so I can't
comment on potential similarities there - but as far as the images
themselves go...
Waterfall City is a tenacious link at best. I can't even count the
number of similar cities that appear in fantasy art. I recall having
designed one myself - way back when in the days I used to play AD&D.
Green domed roofs does not a plagerist make.
As far as the parade goes - there's a link. But no greater a link
than the Pod Race and Ben Hur, A New Hope and The Hidden Fortress,
Star Wars and Flash Gordon.
I think that this is a tempest in a teapot. Let's face it, no
creative work is 100% original. Everything is a compilation of
other elements and influences. And one of the things that, imho,
makes Lucas great, is his ability to weave the various influences
together into something new, yet familiar.
Tragic Lad
"Once those plagerists take control of the surface,
they'll take control of you..."
dave phillips
> I'm afraid the basic story of Episodes I - III was in place well
> over 20 years ago. Nice try, tho.
<shaking head>
The people that really believe that George Lucas isn't winging it as
he's going along, even when he ultimately says so himself, are the most
deluded of fans...
san...@my-deja.com
uec...@cris.com (B. P. Uecker) wrote:
>I've read the article, seen the images, and think the charge is
>totally basis. Gurney is himself borrowing visually from numerous
>other sources, and the similarity frankly isn't that close. He is
>probably fishing for a settlement or wants to see his name in the TPM
>credits.
Actually, according to what I have read Gurney is being really
cool about it and it probably won't become a legal mess. I think
he is taking the right approach since Lucas will probably help him
in the long run anyways if he wants to make a movie (Lucas does
admire his work). His main concern is that when people see his work
they will think it came from TPM. However, I would think if I saw
his work I would think it came from ideas like Jurassic Park, Land
of the Lost, and bunch of other dinosaur type of stories rather than
TPM. ;)
Kevin
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Edward Curtis
rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc, let's see if they are worth reading....
> I've read the article, seen the images, and think the charge is
> totally basis. Gurney is himself borrowing visually from numerous
> other sources, and the similarity frankly isn't that close. He is
> probably fishing for a settlement or wants to see his name in the TPM
> credits.
You might want to go back and reread the article. My impression was that
Gurney would like to avoid legal proceedings, still has a great amount of
respect for Lucas, and has had an amicable exchange with Lucas over the
matter.
In an age where so many people rush to file lawsuits for far lesser
offenses (or perceived offenses), Gurney's patience is remarkable. In
fact I'd say it's worthy of a Jedi. Maybe Lucas can give Gurney a walk-
on role as a Jedi in Episode II. :-)
Edward
--
===zoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
Edward "Mr. Zoom" Curtis cur...@labyrinth.net
Visit the Handicapped Encounter Christ webpage
http://welcome.to/encounter-christ
MtLoweMan
came out, and remarked to friends "This movie borrowed a lot from a book called
Dinotopia-----the architecture is the same, especially the domes and building
roofs."
Chris----...@aol.Com
YodaBeavis
Sounds like a 1977 Patrol Dewback to me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Maguire
yodab...@aol.com
Palindrome page: http://hometown.aol.com/yodabeavis/recipe/index.htm
Gyumaoh
I think that's the point.
This controversy was designed merely to bring attention to Dinotopia.
ROGERDDSD
dinosaurs parading through ancient Rome. Something Hannible tried to do with
Elephants some 1500 years ago. The cities were simular but also different.
Hopefully they will keep the lawyers out of it.
MPyre
of similar cities that appear in fantasy art. >>
Dinotopia should also sue "What Dreams May Come". I thought the city shown on
ads and in the film matched Dinotopia even more.
MPyre Graphics (Mel Marcelo)
Laura Burchard
And echostation. That has to be one of the most hysterically biased
articles I've read in ages-- "The Internet is becoming awash in
conversation on newsgroups, message boards, and websites, questioning
whether James Gurney was involved in the preproduction conceptualization
of particular scenes of the film." Yeah, right. Apart from a couple of
comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation, despite
the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
Most of the 'resemblances' are downright silly -- the only way in which
Theed resembles Waterfall City is that they are both near waterfalls.
Theed is a marble and patina city, all circles and domes, perched on the
edge of a cliff with some small waterfalls. WC is sandstone and red tile,
pyramids and squares, sitting in the middle of a giant series of
waterfalls. The makers of 'Myst' would have a lot more reason to complain
than Gurley.
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
MMeazark
>MMeazark wrote:
>> I really hope you aren't trying to insinuate that Lucas did not
>> possibly already have his parade scene in the plans or in his
>> mind. If so, please provide proof.
>Sure, he had "a parade scene" or something similar in mind...every one
>of his movies (at least since the SE's) have had "the big finale"...but
>the bipedal dinosaurs, large lumbering dinosaurs, and all the other
>similarities between Dinotopia and the end of TPM are just *way* too
>frequently occurring.
We've established Lucas likes big finales.
Bipedal and lumbering Dinosaurs - He's had bipedal furry creatures (tauntauns),
lumbering dinosaurs (the Ronto), and smaller dino-like animals (Dewbacks) in
the past. Bipedal dinosaurs are by no means a surprise nor a stretch in Lucas'
playland.
The architecture - I've seen similar styles to Dinotopia and Theed buildings in
other places. No stretches here.
Using a parade with the Gungans riding lizards/dinosaurs - No surprise here.
It's logical for the Gungans to have mounts of that nature. It's logical to
hold a victory parade. Please keep in mind that for Lucas to have set out to
swipe this scene, he'd have had to craft a good size of the whole movie for
just this one rip-off. After all, he'd have had to set up Theed for it and the
whole Gungan race (primitive warrior race...they won't be on ships when they
fight). We aren't talking his Ben Hur rip-off of the pod race, which was just a
videogame promotion. We are talking about a whole geography, cities,
characters, beasts, etc. Perhaps the Gungans should have been on three-legged
furry dogbeasts. Yeah, they would have stunk when they got wet going to Otoh
Gunga and made no sense from a geographic or physical standpoint but it would
have calmed the litigation bloodhounds. I guess if someone decides to make a
movie with a bunch of people riding Komodo Dragons down a beautiful road, they
better watch out.
BTW...a very prominent picture of Theed was in one or both of the trailers that
were showing long before the release of the movie. Did Gurney contact Lucas or
LFL about this? He had plenty of time. Did I miss Dinotopia threads in this
newsgroup where people raised the architectural questions then or is this whole
problem based on Lucas using lizards in a parade scene?
>Plus, add to those facts the little tidbit that Lucas didn't start
>writing TPM until well *after* he'd seen the Dinotopia setups, and that
>he called Gurney *immediately* after the movie opened (most likely after
>everyone started saying "Uhh...George? That's sort of Dinotopia you've
>put on screen..."), lend credence to the theory that even HE knows he
>did it.
I'd like to emphasize the word *THEORY* in the above paragraph. I'd also like
to point out that you have NO knowledge of the notes that may have existed
concerning TPM prior to Lucas seeing Dinotopia. You also have no idea what
ideas Lucas may have had in mind prior to putting anything to paper. Since
Lucas points to Jurassic Park as the moment he realized he could go back and
make new movies, its entirely possible that dinosaur or lizard type creations
had been in the back of his mind already. That theory holds as much water as
the theory that Lucas "knows" he ripped off Dinotopia. Since you really don't
know what was going on with Lucas and you don't know what Lucas did or did not
have in mind or on paper, you only have half the picture now don't you?
>George Lucas is NOT god, nor is he infallible, nor is he above pocketing
>storylines wholesale from other movies when it suits him: please
>reference the entire pod race/Ben Hur connection, among others.
Did I miss something? Have I said Lucas is God? Have I also said he is above
swiping things? Answer to those...No. I have said nothing of the sort so you
can drop this lame direction. If you want to continue in that direction, I'll
have to ask for you to put Loren back on since Loren is the person I directed
my comments at to begin with. I will give you points for trying to veer away
from the original question I raised but keep the "Lucas is God" and other
gibberish in the threads where people are gushing over his "genius". I am not
doing that.
Does Loren have any proof what Lucas did or did not have in his mind or planned
or since you've peeked in...do you? A simple yes or no will do and if yes,
provide the proof.
- MM
Loren Phillips
> I really hope you aren't trying to insinuate that Lucas did not
> possibly already have his parade scene in the plans or in his
> mind. If so, please provide proof.
It's in the article. The book "Making of the Phantom Menace" indicates
that the screenplay wasn't even begun until 8 months AFTER the
"Dinotopia" production meeting. Lucas himself also states that he only
had a rough outline of what the plot would entail prior to writing the
screenplay...that even many of the characters hadn't even been developed
yet.
Loren Phillips
> I'm afraid the basic story of Episodes I - III was in place well
> over 20 years ago. Nice try, tho.
Lucas himself has stated that he did not have any screenplay written, and that
the majority of characters for Episode 1 were not created until he wrote the
screenplay in the past few years.
Loren Phillips
MMeazark wrote:
Does Loren have any proof what Lucas did or did not have in his mind or planned or
since you've peeked in...do you? A simple yes or no will do and if yes,provide the
proof.
I'm not trying a legal case. Proof one way or another is for the courts to decide,
if it ever happens to get to that point. I was presenting an article with an
interview with the one person other than George Lucas involved in the case, as well
as siting other sources which were relevant to the story. I would be most happy
to present Lucas' interview as well, if he were willing to grant one, and I'm sure
that particular article would be just as "biased" as this one has been claimed to
be. I am more than comfortable with my article, as it was written to inform our
readers of a growning controversy, not to settle the controversy. That's not my
job.
echo...@my-deja.com
mmea...@aol.comhere (MMeazark) wrote:
> BTW...a very prominent picture of Theed was in one or both of the
trailers that
> were showing long before the release of the movie. Did Gurney contact
Lucas or
> LFL about this? He had plenty of time.
To answer this point, Mr. Gurney is sort of a computer-less wonder [g]
He doesn't even have email - all correspondence goes through his
webmaster who *faxes* copies of the emails along to him. So, the
trailers being available on the web most likely passed right by him, and
as hard as it is to believe, some people just don't really watch a lot
of television and he could very well have missed it entirely. Besides,
I know several individuals who *purposely* avoided watching the trailers
so as to remain *completely* spoiler-free.
> I'd like to emphasize the word *THEORY* in the above paragraph. I'd
also like
> to point out that you have NO knowledge of the notes that may have
existed
> concerning TPM prior to Lucas seeing Dinotopia. You also have no idea
what
> ideas Lucas may have had in mind prior to putting anything to paper.
All 100% correct and true, but I do have the following facts to point
to:
- Lucas saw the sketches and plans for the Dinotopia movie some 8 months
prior to his established date when he started even *writing* TPM, let
alone putting artwork and conceptual "look" issues together.
- Other principals involved in the Dinotopia project returned to LFL to
work on TPM after the Dinotopia project stalled
- Lucas' immediate call to Mr. Gurney after the film's premiere
Point two raises an issue that occurs every day in professional life,
and has even been the foundation of several lawsuits to date - employees
taking knowledge of the way Company A does things when they leave and go
work at new Company B. There's a large company right now that is
attempting to sue the pants off of a large online bookseller for
recruiting their employees, and also claiming breach of contract against
said former employees for having the audacity to remember the skills and
lessons learned while in their employ. Puh-leaze. It's ridiculous to
assume that a computer jock would forget what they learned at one
company before going to another company...just like it's ridiculous to
assume that Lucas and the special effects folks would forget what they
saw in their exposure to, and work on, the Dinotopia project.
Point three is quite simple, and in my mind the most damning of Lucas -
if there's no issue at all, and Lucas doesn't even BELIEVE that there's
an issue...why call the day after the film opens to talk with him? Why
demand that said conversation remain 100% under wraps and secret?
> Did I miss something? Have I said Lucas is God? Have I also said he is
above
> swiping things? Answer to those...No. I have said nothing of the sort
so you
> can drop this lame direction.
Sorry :-) Got fired up by several others who seem incapable of
believing that Lucas is even remotely capable of doing what we're
discussing. My apologies [g]
> Does Loren have any proof what Lucas did or did not have in his mind
or planned
> or since you've peeked in...do you? A simple yes or no will do and if
yes,
> provide the proof.
Attempting to know what was or was not in someone's mind is impossible,
as I'm not psychic...we have only the actions that took place both
before and after-the-fact to judge what happened...and as I said above,
those actions paint a not-so-innocent George Lucas canvas.
- dave
Loren Phillips
> I think that this is a tempest in a teapot. Let's face it, no
> creative work is 100% original. Everything is a compilation of
> other elements and influences. And one of the things that, imho,
> makes Lucas great, is his ability to weave the various influences
> together into something new, yet familiar.
I think the major difference is that this isn't a matter of a coincidence of Lucas'
film looking like Gurney's book. It's the fact that Lucas and his production
company were specifically brought into the project by Columbia Pictures...that there
were the same people working on both films. If a storyboard artist developed
designs for a Columbia film, then took those same designs to another production
company (ILM in this case) for a film which would be released earlier, that would
definitely be a legal issue. If Lucas was indeed in a production meeting involving
the conceptual storyboards for Dinotopia, then sat down and wrote something
extremely similar, then Columbia or Gurney may have a case. This is why Gurney is
getting so much pressure to litigate the matter...because other production companies
and effects artists are concerned about the crossover of personnel resulting in the
loss of their ideas to other films. It's the specific correlations between the
production companies that are the issue, not just people noting a similarity. My
article was designed to present these other events, as well as present the
interview.
If people don't agree with the issue, that certainly shows that it is indeed a
controversy. If everyone felt the same way on the matter, there wouldn't be
anything to have written about in the first place.
Loren Phillips
> Yeah, right. Apart from a couple of
> comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation, despite
> the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps the newsgroups or websites with which
you are affiliated have not addressed the issue, however there are thousands
of people across the country discussing it. I merely posted a message here
indicating that the article was available for you to read. I do, however,
respond to posts replying to me, since it is common courtesy.
Jeffrey Wheeler
costuming designs for "Dinotopia" are 'inspired by' the work of Pauline
Baynes? Not the coloring or drawing style (Baynes mostly does B&W sketches),
but the actual designs. For an example, those with a copy of C.S. Lewis'
"The Horse and his Boy" might compare her Tashbaan illustration with
Waterfall City (http://www.dinotopia.com/waterfall2.gif ). Despite the
obvious functional disparities, the buildings, the surrounding water, the
walls, even the framing of the illustrations are the same. Gurney is as
guilty as Lucas. However, to the extent of placing guilt, I believe the two
guys combine existing elements into projects that demonstrate their own
individuality, rather than acting as plagiarists, who steal with no
interests in mind other than their own, nor have a meaningful investment in
the artistry and craftsmanship of that which they steal. In other words,
this entire controversy is, as a friend put it, "like God suing all of us
for defamation of character and for plagiarizing, well, *everything*."
Jeffrey Wheeler
sha...@bellsouth.net
AxL
>I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps the newsgroups or websites with which
>you are affiliated have not addressed the issue, however there are thousands
>of people across the country discussing it. I merely posted a message here
>indicating that the article was available for you to read. I do, however,
>respond to posts replying to me, since it is common courtesy.
This nor any other newsgroup was "awash" in discussion about this
Dinotropia thing until YOU came in here, contrary to your little
article. Nice publicity stunt, but better people than you have tried
and failed.
KBusby2256
with it. I mean really..just because Star Trek and Star Wars are both set in
outer space..do you really think Lucas copied Star Trek? And in case your
wondering..there have been other films with a palace and a parade scene..its
nothing new. The shots in DINO and SW are very different.
"Look sir, droids"
John Savard
>Since
>business negotiations fell apart over Lucas directing the film, he wasn't able
>to do "Dinotopia"...but he sure found a way to do that parade scene, didn't
>he?
He did do *a* parade scene, but that's a natural parallel to the
endings of ANH and ROJ. I'm tempted to ask if the Rose Bowl is next on
the litigation list...
I suppose if Lucas were some unknown, they could have got him to sign
a contract saying "since I'm going to learn a lot about making movies
from these contract negotiations, I agree not to make any movies of my
own for X years afterwards..." but in general one needs striking
similarities to *unique* elements of Dinotopia. Parades? Young
children scattering flower petals? People riding on the backs of
animals? You're saying these things were _invented_ for Dinotopia?
Even the combination of the three is common.
Sakura
Loren Phillips <lo...@nospam.echostation.com> wrote:
>Sakura wrote:
>>Again, I just don't see it. The architecture looks completely different
>> to me, the colors are different, the surrounding landscape is different.
>> Gurney may well have suggested green domes for Waterfall City in the
>> Dinotopia film, but the book had red tile roofs, and if (as he states) he
>> wants to avoid looking like TPM, he can just go back to his original
>> vision, yes?
>
>I guess the overwhelming fact is that there isn't just one similarity, but
>several.
Honestly, looking at the Dinotopia illustration as someone who has seen
SW:TPM but is not familair with Dinotopia: I felt no urge to say, "Hey,
Gurney ripped that off from Lucas" or vice versa. They're both pictures
of a parade, and there are going to be some similarities, sure.
I remember seeing line drawings of very similar scenes (with elephants
and horses) that predate both Lucas and Gurney. I only wish I could
remember where, so that I could find them and point people to them.
Are people honestly saying that Lucas planned the Gungan culture and their
use of lizardlike riding beasts just to take advantage of the parade
scene? He clearly wanted a culture with beasts of burden. Mammals would
be a bit silly for an underwater civilization, and the beasts had to be as
amphibious as the Gungans, so fish and birds are out. What else was he
going to use? Giant earthworms? (Oh, wait, then he'd be ripping off
_Dune_...)
Also, nobody has explained exactly why anyone thinks that Waterfall City
looks anything like Theed, when they clearly do not...
Anyway, I think it's telling that Gurney himself is trying to stay out of
the controversy and is looking for other options than the mindless
'sue-sue-sue' that is so common in our society. I might just go buy his
book out of respect for that attitude.
J
--
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - je...@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
echo...@my-deja.com
l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard) wrote:
> And echostation. That has to be one of the most hysterically biased
> articles I've read in ages-- "The Internet is becoming awash in
> conversation on newsgroups, message boards, and websites, questioning
> whether James Gurney was involved in the preproduction
conceptualization
> comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation,
despite
> the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
ROTFLMAO!! Okay, let me just clue you in to one small, minor detail
here Laura [g] We get in excess of 20,000,000 hits every week and over
40,000 unique users every day. We don't *need* to invent things to get
people to stop by the site thankyouverymuch :-)
And yes, there very much WERE discussions underway on message boards, in
chat rooms, and around the web...just because they don't take place in
your immediate viewing range doesn't mean they're not there. :-)
e l w e n
> Actually, according to what I have read Gurney is being really
> cool about it and it probably won't become a legal mess. I think
> he is taking the right approach since Lucas will probably help him
> in the long run anyways if he wants to make a movie (Lucas does
> admire his work). His main concern is that when people see his work
> they will think it came from TPM. However, I would think if I saw
> his work I would think it came from ideas like Jurassic Park, Land
> of the Lost, and bunch of other dinosaur type of stories rather than
> TPM. ;)
Good point Kevin...
--
e l w e n
"All that is not given is lost..." - Hasar Pal
HubCity
>
>I remember seeing line drawings of very similar scenes (with elephants
>and horses) that predate both Lucas and Gurney. I only wish I could
>remember where, so that I could find them and point people to
>them.
>
Winsor McCay.
-HubCity
e l w e n
LOL... great point of view Jeff, I agree with you totally. I think in the
end Gurney and Lucas will come to a private agreement.
e l w e n
> George Lucas is NOT god, nor is he infallible, nor is he above pocketing
> storylines wholesale from other movies when it suits him: please
> reference the entire pod race/Ben Hur connection, among others.
Puh-leeze Dave, you starting to barf arguments here. No wonder your nation
is so trigger-happy when it comes to lawsuits.
e l w e n
> da...@echostation.com wrote:
>
> >George Lucas is NOT god, nor is he infallible, nor is he above pocketing
> >storylines wholesale from other movies when it suits him: please
> >reference the entire pod race/Ben Hur connection, among others.
>
> Did I miss something? Have I said Lucas is God? Have I also said he is above
> swiping things? Answer to those...No. I have said nothing of the sort so you
> can drop this lame direction. If you want to continue in that direction, I'll
> have to ask for you to put Loren back on since Loren is the person I directed
> my comments at to begin with. I will give you points for trying to veer away
> from the original question I raised but keep the "Lucas is God" and other
> gibberish in the threads where people are gushing over his "genius". I am not
> doing that.
Exactly, I think Dave just went over the fence on that one. There were no
basis for the way he put his arguments.
e l w e n
> I'm not trying a legal case. Proof one way or another is for the courts
to decide,
> if it ever happens to get to that point. I was presenting an article with an
> interview with the one person other than George Lucas involved in the
case, as well
> as siting other sources which were relevant to the story. I would be
most happy
> to present Lucas' interview as well, if he were willing to grant one,
and I'm sure
> that particular article would be just as "biased" as this one has been
claimed to
> be. I am more than comfortable with my article, as it was written to
inform our
> readers of a growning controversy, not to settle the controversy. That's
not my
> job.
Well Lorien, unfortunately you walked into your own trap. The only thing
that you managed to do with your 'purely informational' article was to
expose only one side of the story. I'm no journalist but here's one
sensible tip... wait until you have both sides of the story before jumping
to print just one side of it, you'll avoid a lot of mess.
e l w e n
> To answer this point, Mr. Gurney is sort of a computer-less wonder [g]
> He doesn't even have email - all correspondence goes through his
> webmaster who *faxes* copies of the emails along to him. So, the
> trailers being available on the web most likely passed right by him, and
> as hard as it is to believe, some people just don't really watch a lot
> of television and he could very well have missed it entirely. Besides,
> I know several individuals who *purposely* avoided watching the trailers
> so as to remain *completely* spoiler-free.
And this is suppoused to support your point? Please come up with something
more clever. We're not talking about Robinson Crusoe here, someone who is
cut off from the world.
> Sorry :-) Got fired up by several others who seem incapable of
> believing that Lucas is even remotely capable of doing what we're
> discussing. My apologies [g]
Well, that does not excuse your barfing stupid lame arguments, such as
this one I'm writing right now :o)
> Attempting to know what was or was not in someone's mind is impossible,
> as I'm not psychic...we have only the actions that took place both
> before and after-the-fact to judge what happened...and as I said above,
> those actions paint a not-so-innocent George Lucas canvas.
Whoa! Hold on and back up the wagon Dave... it was very clear to me that
on your first post you were attempting to judge Lucas and have him as
guilty just because of your so-called facts, so don't come now with your
'I'm an objective person' mask.
Look, I'm not saying Lucas is innocent or guilty, what I'm saying is that
it is an issue that involves only Lucas and Gurney, and they're the only
ones who can decide what to do. You're the classic type who'd rather call
his lawyer first, file a lawsuit and ask questions later.
e l w e n
And what is your point with this Lorien? You're just going in circles.
Whether or not Lucas had an outline or a screenplay is besides the point.
There is no way to tell what exactly he had in mind. Remember, outlines
are like an index of things that will be included, he can always say he
already had the parade scene in mind.
The only ones who seem to have a 'biased' view are the ones from
EchoStation. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, what gets under my
skin are people like you and Dave who are all too happy to jump into
conclusions and expose a one-sided view of the matter.
e l w e n
> Laura Burchard wrote:
>
> > Yeah, right. Apart from a couple of
> > comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation, despite
> > the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
>
> I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps the newsgroups or websites with which
> you are affiliated have not addressed the issue, however there are thousands
> of people across the country discussing it. I merely posted a message here
> indicating that the article was available for you to read. I do, however,
> respond to posts replying to me, since it is common courtesy.
I know that I'm putting you on the grill a lot Lorien, but you should've
seen this coming from a mile away. What cracks me up the most is your
total bewilderment at the fact people think your article is extremely
biased. I just wish you would've gather all the facts before jumping into
the band wagon.
e l w e n
Which, like I pointed out already, you failed in doing. You should've seen
the consequences of your reckless action Lorien. The only thing that you
contributed to this was the creation of a storm before you had both sides
of the story. It's people like you that put the 'pressure' into Gurney.
> If people don't agree with the issue, that certainly shows that it is indeed a
> controversy. If everyone felt the same way on the matter, there wouldn't be
> anything to have written about in the first place.
Well duh... people don't agree with the issue simply because it's a one
sided view. That's what I disgree with, you clear lack of vision when
writing the article, you failed completely and only managed to create said
controversy.
Matthew B Seigel
chair 30 feet up on a wall. Kind of an evil interview scene with Bruce
the victim.
Anyway there is a architect who make tons of conceptual architurecture,
models and drawings. Great stuff if you like it (I do). Weird black and
white stuff.
One of his drawings had just such a chair. He sued and won.
I also saw the Dinotopia similarity at once. It is not just borrowing as
movies always do, Ben-Hur, waterfall cities, etc. The parade scene at
the end is exactly a parade scene from Dinotopia. The buildings, the
children, the look and feel, the emotion, the animals.
Now this may be a classic scene from older films, but if not I'd say
Dinotopia has a case.
Also I just came into this thread late, where is the original article
this refers to?
There was also a photographer who took cute photos. He had a post card
with a cute photo of 10 puppies in a row. A sculpture made a bronze
sculpture exactly from the photo. He got sued. He argued that the photo
had a flower on the 4th puppy, his did not and other such crap. Don't
remember who one. It was very obvious.
Then there was the winning Corel Draw entry. The guy had copied a photo
(or painting) I think his entry got removed and all new contests for
Corel have to be original.
The Lucas thing is a little more flexible. Not sure what will happen.
Loren Phillips
> This nor any other newsgroup was "awash" in discussion about this
> Dinotropia thing until YOU came in here, contrary to your little
> article. Nice publicity stunt, but better people than you have tried
> and failed.
<shrug> This isn't exactly the only newsgroup. Gee.. sorry for trying to let
you know there was something of interest. This isn't exactly a place where we go
for "publicity". We get enough of that from places like Cinescape.
M L G Moore
> Now this may be a classic scene from older films, but if not I'd say
> Dinotopia has a case.
>
Watch the Elizabeth Taylor Cleopatra. Dinotopia is an obvious, oh, lets
say homage to Cleo. Besides, exactly how many ways are there to show a
parade? You got flowers, you got pretty girls, you got elephants, you
got floats.
dave phillips
> And this is suppoused to support your point? Please come up with something
> more clever. We're not talking about Robinson Crusoe here, someone who is
> cut off from the world.
Actually in response to the point you raised, yes, it exactly does. You
asked why he wouldn't have brought it up earlier, I pointed out the fact
that there are plenty of people who never saw the trailer. I realize
that may be hard to fathom...but it's true nonetheless.
> Whoa! Hold on and back up the wagon Dave... it was very clear to me that
> on your first post you were attempting to judge Lucas and have him as
> guilty just because of your so-called facts, so don't come now with your
> 'I'm an objective person' mask.
Oh, that's right...god forbid that someone actually try and get
*rational* in the midst of getting slammed...<sigh>...y'know, there's a
reason why I don't hang on newsgroups as much as I used to.
> Look, I'm not saying Lucas is innocent or guilty, what I'm saying is that
> it is an issue that involves only Lucas and Gurney, and they're the only
> ones who can decide what to do. You're the classic type who'd rather call
> his lawyer first, file a lawsuit and ask questions later.
Ah...your insight serves you...poorly, actually. :-) Not knowing who I
am, what I am, or where I stand on just about any issue you could name,
and you're qualified to make sweeping judgements of my character? Must
be nice to be omniscient :-)
- dave
dave phillips
> seen this coming from a mile away. What cracks me up the most is your
> total bewilderment at the fact people think your article is extremely
> biased. I just wish you would've gather all the facts before jumping into
> the band wagon.
As soon as Lucas starts doing interviews with fan sites, we'll be sure
and let you know where the article is <g>
Chris Hawkins
>y'know, there's a reason why I don't hang on newsgroups as much as I
>used to.
Be careful, if you go so far as to say you liked TPM in your next post
in this discussion, you might just start a revolution. ;)
MTFBWY,
Chris Hawkins
Keeper of the Shaven Wookies
(-o-)
Shaven Wookie, Ltd. - http://www.shavenwookie.com/
The Official RASSM Homepage - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/
The RASSM FAQ - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/rassmfaq.htm
E-Mail Address - haw...@shavenwookie.com
Loren Phillips
> Loren Phillips <lo...@echostation.com> wrote:
>
> The only ones who seem to have a 'biased' view are the ones from
> EchoStation. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, what gets under my
> skin are people like you and Dave who are all too happy to jump into
> conclusions and expose a one-sided view of the matter.
Perhaps you should scroll back through the posts here. There have been
several in agreement. ;-)
David R. Phillips
> Be careful, if you go so far as to say you liked TPM in your next post
> in this discussion, you might just start a revolution. ;)
LOL!
First viewing: I walked out swearing like a sailor about it.
Second viewing: No swearing, but discovered a GREAT many plot holes.
Third viewing: I fell asleep several times in the theater, at a 4:30pm
show, after a good night's sleep.
Little doubt of me raving about it <g>
Loren Phillips
> Well duh... people don't agree with the issue simply because it's a one
> sided view. That's what I disgree with, you clear lack of vision when
> writing the article, you failed completely and only managed to create said
> controversy.
You know, we aren't CNN. Lucasfilm has been invited to give us a statement,
however, we've yet to receive one. If they don't state their "case", there's no
way for us to present their side of the matter.
Besides, there is no interview that isn't biased. It always involves the
interviewed person's one-sided story. That's the whole point of an "interview".
Loren Phillips
> Well Lorien, unfortunately you walked into your own trap. The only thing
> that you managed to do with your 'purely informational' article was to
> expose only one side of the story. I'm no journalist but here's one
> sensible tip... wait until you have both sides of the story before jumping
> to print just one side of it, you'll avoid a lot of mess.
LOL! What mess? I think it's GREAT that the issue is getting the attention it
deserves. We've had great response to the article.
Loren Phillips
> Be careful, if you go so far as to say you liked TPM in your next post
> in this discussion, you might just start a revolution. ;)
LOL!!! Perhaps it would be worth it just for the entertainment value.
Loren Phillips
> I also saw the Dinotopia similarity at once. It is not just borrowing as
> movies always do, Ben-Hur, waterfall cities, etc. The parade scene at
> the end is exactly a parade scene from Dinotopia. The buildings, the
> children, the look and feel, the emotion, the animals.
You know, I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who are discounting
the plagiarism claim have never even read "Dinotopia".
> Also I just came into this thread late, where is the original article
> this refers to?
Loren Phillips
> I know that I'm putting you on the grill a lot Lorien, but you should've
> seen this coming from a mile away. What cracks me up the most is your
> total bewilderment at the fact people think your article is extremely
> biased. I just wish you would've gather all the facts before jumping into
> the band wagon.
But what you seem to be missing is that I knew when I *wrote* it that it was
biased, since I was telling one person's side of a controversy, which is obvious
from the article. As I said before, EchoStation isn't CNN. We write articles of
interest. And considering that there were only two people in the world who could
truly discuss what the true facts were, I think it's great that one of them
thought highly enough of Echo to let us tell his side. I'll be MOST happy to do
the same for Mr. Lucas.
Laura Burchard
>In article <7ji85t$or8$1...@saltmine.radix.net>,
> l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard) wrote:
>> And echostation. That has to be one of the most hysterically biased
>> articles I've read in ages-- "The Internet is becoming awash in
>> conversation on newsgroups, message boards, and websites, questioning
>> whether James Gurney was involved in the preproduction
>conceptualization
>> comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation,
>despite
>> the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
>ROTFLMAO!! Okay, let me just clue you in to one small, minor detail
>here Laura [g] We get in excess of 20,000,000 hits every week and over
>40,000 unique users every day. We don't *need* to invent things to get
>people to stop by the site thankyouverymuch :-)
Sheeah, right. Let's see, 20 million a week is about 3 million a day.
Slashdot, one of the most read sites on the net (31 on today's hot 100),
gets 500-600K pageviews a day. Mp3now, one of the biggest mpeg sites, also
a top 100 site, is proud to advertise 3 million a month. You, strangely,
fail to be in any of the most viewed lists. Nor, unlike jedinet and
theforce.net, have you been linked to by the many SW pages I've wandered
through, meaning you aren't even very prominent as a Star Wars site. In
fact, I've never heard of you up to now.
It's possible you were inflating it the classic way via counting every
pull of a graphic as a 'hit', and thus racking up dozens per page, or
perhaps by the other favorite method of taking the peak hits you ever got
in an hour or day and extrapolating them as your 'average', but I suspect
with numbers that ludicrous that you are just plain old Making 'Em Up.
>And yes, there very much WERE discussions underway on message boards, in
>chat rooms, and around the web...just because they don't take place in
>your immediate viewing range doesn't mean they're not there. :-)
Let's take a peek around dejanews for *any* combinations of Dinotopia and
Lucas or TPM or Phantom Menace or Naboo or Theed, back through March.
Why look. We have 102 hits. Exactly *nine* of them are outside the
star wars groups, and nearly all of the ones in the star wars groups are
in the threads *you've* started. Suuuuuuure the net is awash.
Do you think you are talking to *stupid* people here? Sheesh.
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Chris Hawkins
>You know, I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who are >discounting the plagiarism claim have never even read "Dinotopia".
I've not made an opinion in either direction on this simply because I
have not read "Dinotopia." Plus, I'd have to do some digging for info
on my own before I could satisfactorily say yes or no.
MTFBWY,
Chris Hawkins
David R. Phillips
> It's possible you were inflating it the classic way via counting every
> pull of a graphic as a 'hit', and thus racking up dozens per page, or
> perhaps by the other favorite method of taking the peak hits you ever got
> in an hour or day and extrapolating them as your 'average', but I suspect
> with numbers that ludicrous that you are just plain old Making 'Em Up.
Nope, sorry. :-) See, one of the joys of owning the servers you live on
(unlike the other SW sites you mentioned) is that I get to run things like
professional log reporting software over our logs every day (not relying on
freeware cgi scripts or silly free page counters, thanks)...though to be
honest, I only run them about once a week since it takes a few hours for the
reports to run...and yes, the "hit" count is totally different from the
"pageview" or "unique user" count, which is why I specifically mentioned both
in my original post. Some of us have been around the 'net awhile too,
thanks...and really do know what we're talking about. I don't subscribe to
any "hot 100" lists, and I don't bother playing with sponsors, or advertising,
or any other nonsensical crap like that - I don't *need* to, thanks. Echo's
been doing just fine for the past few years, and it'll continue doing fine, I
assure you :-)
If you'd like, I can give you an hour-by-hour breakdown of our logs for any
given random day that you'd like...but what fun would bringing documentation
and fact be, right? <g>
However, if it'll make you happy, here's a one-week snapshot:
Number of Hits for Home Page
19913294
Number of Successful Hits for Entire Site
45419896
Number of Page Views (Impressions)
3893613
Number of User Sessions
288848
User Sessions from United States
72.22%
International User Sessions
15.83%
User Sessions of Unknown Origin
11.94%
Average Number of Hits per Day
2844756
Average Number of Page Views Per Day
556230
Average Number of User Sessions per Day
41264
Average User Session Length
00:27:50
Sorry it's not formatted prettier, but I'm copying and pasting...and god
forbid I get accused of doctoring anything by trying to clean anything up <g>
...but if you want a more detailed view, please feel free to email me rather
than clutter up the NG with anything further.
Seriously...yes, I'm more than aware of Slashdot, and TFN, and Jedinet...and
yes, they're all great sites (in fact, I read /. on a daily basis, and peruse
TFN from time to time as well)...and point of fact, TFN is the only SW site
out there that rivals our numbers as far as traffic goes...but that's really
neither here nor there.
The numbers are what they are Laura. You can believe them or not as you
wish...but they really do speak for themselves. Whether or not you've heard
of us really doesn't matter much to me one way or the other :-) My point all
along to your argument is that there's a whole wide world on the web out
there, and not necessarily everything falls within your viewing path...I
stumble across sites all the time and am like "oh my GOD, how did I NOT know
this was here..."
> Let's take a peek around dejanews for *any* combinations of Dinotopia and
> Lucas or TPM or Phantom Menace or Naboo or Theed, back through March
> Why look. We have 102 hits. Exactly *nine* of them are outside the
> star wars groups, and nearly all of the ones in the star wars groups are
> in the threads *you've* started. Suuuuuuure the net is awash.
You must do math differently than I do, since I came up with over 200 on my
first attempt to mimic your search :-)
> Do you think you are talking to *stupid* people here? Sheesh.
Stupid? Nah.
Closed minded? Very possibly. :-) Love you too though <g>
- dave
Loren Phillips
>>Nor, unlike jedinet and theforce.net, have you been linked to by the many
SW pages I've wandered
>>through, meaning you aren't even very prominent as a Star Wars site. In
>>fact, I've never heard of you up to now.
Since Echo publicly refused to publish TPM spoilers, there would be no reason
to include us on TPM info lists. However, we did appear in several articles,
but were mostly featured in news media covering the Star Wars phenomenon in
general. We've had staff members interviewed for Yahoo magazine, USAToday,
People
Magazine, Sci-Fi Channel, Knight-Ridder newspapers, etc.
However, since you seem to be mostly concerned about lists, I can give you a
few. These are a few sites that list us as a recommended website:
"Best of the Net" Award from About.Com (formerly Miningco.com)
http://starwars.about.com/msubfans.htm?pid=2796&cob=home
Lycos
http://dir.lycos.com/Arts/Movies/Series/Star_Wars/Magazines/
HotBot
http://directory.hotbot.com/Arts/Movies/Series/Star_Wars/Magazines/
Excite
http://www.excite.com/entertainment/movies/titles/s/star_wars_series/?first=1&websites=1&tabs=y:y:y
Infoseek/Go.com
http://www.go.com/WebDir/Entertainment/Sci_fi_fantasy_horror/Star_Wars/Star_Wars_fanzines?lk=noframes
>> but I suspect with numbers that ludicrous that you are just plain old
Making 'Em Up.
<shrug> Frankly, it's your choice to believe what you like, but when someone
asks, we give them the numbers. We're certainly not going to *deflate* them
because you don't think they could be true. Considering EchoStation was so
big we had to get dedicated servers and start a webhosting company to support
it, we must get
*some* traffic, eh? (By the way, EchoStation's web hosting evolved into
http://www.novatech.net, in case you can't find it. Since so many real
business sites wanted to affiliate with us, we decided to change the name away
from a Star Wars theme.)
Obviously, you've already convinced yourself that simply because you've never
heard of the site, no one has. Luckily, we've got a heck of a lot of visitors
who feel
differently. I'm quite pleased with our visitor base...a very intellectual,
adult audience for the most part. The fanboys don't like EchoStation much,
since we don't
publish exciting news like "who's picture will be on potato chip bags". As a
matter of fact, my favorite recent newsgroup post goes like this:
Subject Re LUCAS INTERVIEW ON CNN --- Starks who?
From "Duo Maxwell" <bloo...@99main.com>
Date 1999/05/30
Newsgroups alt.fan.starwars
"Umm, Veronica? This is a newsgroup!! Intelligence, and eloquent writing are
expressly forbidden!!
Take your stuff to Echo Station. This place is for flamewars, and stupid
arguments, not intelligent writing such as yours."
I've really got to write the author of that post and thank him...our staff
really got a chuckle out of it.
>>Do you think you are talking to *stupid* people here? Sheesh.
No, you're not stupid...just a little narrow-minded. There's a whole big
world out there beyond your bookmark file...you should explore it. There's
lots of great stuff
to see!
(Sorry to anyone else who finds my post here a little condescending...it just
soooo makes me chuckle when someone can't believe anything exists beyond their
own
experiences.)
- Loren
Loren Phillips
> In fact, I've never heard of you up to now.
Darn it, Laura...all that time I spent getting that list of URLs together for
you made me forget to mention something!
You know that URL at the end of Chris's sig file? The RASSM Faq? You know...
MTFBWY,
Chris Hawkins
The RASSM FAQ - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/rassmfaq.htm
Well, Laura, guess where that file resides? That's correct! Right here on
EchoStation's web server. We just happen to host the Official RASSM Homepage,
and I'm quite happy to have them here via Lucasfan.com.
(Sorry, Chris...I just *couldn't* resist <wink>)
Loren
Chris Hawkins
> (Sorry, Chris...I just *couldn't* resist <wink>)
Hey, if you can't plug a website or try to get someone to realize that
you've been around for a long damn time in this place, where can you?
:)
Loren Phillips
> Hey, if you can't plug a website or try to get someone to realize that
> you've been around for a long damn time in this place, where can you?
> :)
You know, if nothing else, this made me realize we're missing a very
important item on our links page at Echo. I'm adding our favorite
newsgroup tonight! ;-)
Loren
David R. Phillips
> Yeah, right. Apart from a couple of
> comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation, despite
> the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
I just HAD to do some searching today to counteract this...hope you don't
mind <g> Please note the dates on the posts in question...and more
importantly, please notice the diversity of groups from which the posts
come. Everything from Tolkien to Renaissance Fairs had newsgroups discussing
this very topic. And yes, this is just a small sampling of the posts I found
backing up the facts. As per usual, if you want more, let me know and we can
take it to email so as not to bother the NG any further.
I promise not to smile too widely if you want to go ahead and just say "Dave,
you were right" any time soon to save this from going any further <chuckle>
>> Forum: rec.arts.books.tolkien
>> Thread: Star Wars: The Voice of Authority
>> Message 125 of 175
Subject:
Star Wars: The Voice of Authority
Date:
1999/05/19
Author:
Prembone <prem...@usabitespam.net>
Posting History
Once again, the critics have their heads firmly ensconced
up
their asses. ("Arses" to you on the other
side of the Atlantic.) Lucas promised us an entertaining
movie, and he delivered. And that
10-year-old kid already has Mark Hamill beat in the
acting
department -- not that it takes much to
accomplish THAT. ;-) Go see it and enjoy it, especially
if
it amuses you to start piecing together who will
fit where in the later scheme of things.
One thing: the final scene looks like Lucas was reading
Dinotopia right before he storyboarded it.
** Prembone ** (remove b.s. phrase when replying)
The Prembone Pages: Humor, Opinion, Parody, Satire
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/
"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the
invisible." - Oscar Wilde
>> Forum: rec.arts.movies.current-films
>> Thread: Naboo = Dinotopia
>> Message 93 of 175
Subject:
Naboo = Dinotopia
Date:
1999/05/30
Author:
Jonathan Lieht <jli...@zdnetmail.com>
Posting History
Wasn't there a "Dinotopia" film in development
somewhere? I
think that the extensive amount of
"borrowing" from the design of the books in TPM's Naboo
might steal its thunder and it may not get made.
>> Forum: alt.fan.starwars
>> Thread: Naboo = Dinotopia
>> Message 98 of 175
Subject:
Naboo = Dinotopia
Date:
1999/05/30
Author:
Darth Yoda <hausm...@ix.netcom.com>
Posting History
Is it just me, or did Naboo's Theed City look a LOT like
James Gurney's DINOTOPIA, minus the
domesticated dinosaurs?
My friend mentioned this to me and I have to admit I had
already had the thought pass through my head
before he did.
At least, *if* they copied, they copied something good...
FROM THE DAY AFTER THE MOVIE OPENED!! <g>
>> Forum: alt.fan.starwars
>> Thread: Dinotopia (not really spoilers, but
referring to TPM)
>> Message 112 of 175
Subject:
Dinotopia (not really spoilers, but referring to
TPM)
Date:
1999/05/20
Author:
aw <aww...@yahoo.com>
Posting History
Anybody ever read these books?
Something about TPM seemed vaguely familiar to me, but I
couldn't place my finger on it. After thinking
about it, I realized that all of Naboo completely
reminded
me of the Dinotopian cities. The gungans'
physical featueres are straight out of it, as is the
capital
city: the general feel and coloring of the place,
use of waterways, etc. The parade at the end also seemed
straight out of the book.
Even some of the new transport animals, like the creature
they ride on Tatooine and the gungans' steeds
have the same gait and look of the two-legged dinos in
Dinotopia.
I don't have the books with me, so I can't go back and
compare. I'm going from my memory here. Anyone
else that can make a comparison about this?
-aw
>> Forum: alt.fairs.renaissance
>> Thread: Opinions, anyone?
Subject:
Re: Opinions, anyone?
Date:
1999/05/24
Author:
Rayanne <nad...@earthlink.net>
Posting History
On Sun, 23 May 1999 03:33:52 -0500, Ms Pride
<prid...@execpc.com>
wrote:
>I agree. It totally, utterly blew. To me, it felt like
a
long toy
>commercial, was rather cliche with a bit of propaganda
thrown in for
>good measure. From my point of view, it was as if bits
from the
>original Star Wars were stirred with Ben Hur, Dinotopia,
Jaws, and
>Vaudeville schtick. How many times can you see things
blow
up? Sets,
>costumes and imaging was great but the story line
suffered
from the
>inept and annoying attempts at humor. Sigh!
>> Forum: deja.public.review
>> Thread: Good But Not Great
>> Message 141 of 175
Subject:
Good But Not Great
Date:
1999/05/22
Author:
Randy Moore <review...@deja.com>
Posting History
[Review of Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace ( Star
Wars Movies)]
In a nutshell:
Acting: Could be better. Story: Starts out slow than
rockets
of in true Star Wars fashion with the Racing
scene. Special FX: I thought special FX were supposed to
be
seemless - Of course the Naboo city where
Queen Amidala ruled was really good,...a little too
Dinotopia inspired however. I think all the dialog was
given to Jar Jar Binks (who you could not really
understand)
and speaking of 3D characters, Boss Nass
and the Battle Droids were cool, everthing else blew. I
mean
the queens ship was silver SR-71 Blackbird! I
felt disappointed like when I watched Return of the Jedi.
Overal the movie was entertaining - It's just not a
masterpiece.
Chris Hawkins
> You know, if nothing else, this made me realize we're missing a very
> important item on our links page at Echo. I'm adding our favorite
> newsgroup tonight! ;-)
Adding a disclaimer that says "beware this hive of scum and villiany"?
;)
MTFBWY,
Chris Hawkins
Keeper of the Shaven Wookies
(-o-)
Shaven Wookie, Ltd. - http://www.shavenwookie.com/
The Official RASSM Homepage - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/
The RASSM FAQ - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/rassmfaq.htm
E-Mail Address - haw...@shavenwookie.com
Loren Phillips
> Adding a disclaimer that says "beware this hive of scum and villiany"?
> ;)
I think referring to it as a "newsgroup" pretty well screams "ya takes yer
chances there buddy". ;-)
-Loren
Justin
> >author of "Dinotopia" is being pressured by the film production industry
> >to hold Lucas accountable for plagiarism.
>
> He should tell the film production industry to get lost, since he
> would be wasting millions on legal fees - and it is *extremely*
> unlikely he would get anywhere.
>
> Even in cases of obvious plagiarism, plaintiffs often lose.
I don't think he's trying to win, I think he trying to get worldwide
headlines, for free, which effectively say "Dinotopia has special
effects just like the latest starwars movie!". The same way that that
insurance company paided out a million dollars to an alien abductee who
presented a sort of dismembered claw as proof - the cost of the payout
(or in this case, the legal fees) is very small compared to the cost of
acheiving that kind of advertising by tradional means.
Disclaimer - I haven't read the article, I'm just guessing.
Laura Burchard
David R. Phillips <da...@echostation.com> wrote:
>Laura Burchard wrote:
>> Yeah, right. Apart from a couple of
>> comments in reviews, the only thing awash with it is echostation, despite
>> the echostations folks' best efforts to talk it up here.
>I just HAD to do some searching today to counteract this...hope you don't
>mind <g> Please note the dates on the posts in question...and more
>importantly, please notice the diversity of groups from which the posts
>come. Everything from Tolkien to Renaissance Fairs had newsgroups discussing
>this very topic. And yes, this is just a small sampling of the posts I found
>backing up the facts. As per usual, if you want more, let me know and we can
>take it to email so as not to bother the NG any further.
Oh, no, dear, you get to be embarrassed in public.
>I promise not to smile too widely if you want to go ahead and just say "Dave,
>you were right" any time soon to save this from going any further <chuckle>
Sadly, you'd be... wrong. To quote myself from my message:
"Why look. We have 102 hits. Exactly *nine* of them are outside the star
wars groups, and nearly all of the ones in the star wars groups are in the
threads *you've* started."
It's now up to 122 hits, mostly from additions to the thread.
Yet there are still only 10 outside of the star wars groups: a
Naboo=Dinotopia post and two replies in rec.arts.movies.current-films
(clearly, a raging controversy, to garner all of two replies.) A mention
in misc.writing.screenplays. A mention in alt.fairs.renaissance, and in a
quote in a reply (the reply doesn't mention Dinotopia at all, just happens
to have the word in one of the quoted sections.) A mention in a review in
rec.arts.books.tolkien and again a reply that doesn't mention it but has
the word in quoted text. And a revew in deja.public.review.
and, New! a review in maus.freizeit.kino.
Hmm, perhaps some comparisons are in order. Let's say.... Ben Hur!
Hmm! 102 mentions. 44 still in the star wars groups, but 58 spread out
across 28 groups.
or... Kurosawa!
210 mentions, 149 spread out across 50+ non-star wars groups.
Of the Dinotopia threads in the starwars newsgroup, there were a couple of
early brief threads, pre theforce.net article, and the rest stems from
that dinotopia.com posting and your posts. That's it. In other words, a
handful of people on Usenet think it looks similiar (me, it looks like
Myst.) There's no 'awash', except for your assiduous whipping up of
publicity for your site.
Only thing that struck me as even vaguely similiar was the parade idea --
I wouldn't be stunned if Lucasfilm had gone ahead and done a cool parade
since they didn't get to do Dinotopia's -- but if that's going to count as
a wrongful steal then the producers of Cleopatra should have a word with
Mr. Gurley.
Laura Burchard
Loren Phillips <lo...@nospam.echostation.com> wrote:
>Laura Burchard wrote:
>> In fact, I've never heard of you up to now.
>Darn it, Laura...all that time I spent getting that list of URLs together for
>you made me forget to mention something!
>You know that URL at the end of Chris's sig file? The RASSM Faq? You know...
>The RASSM FAQ - http://www.lucasfan.com/rassm/rassmfaq.htm
Yes, and this should make me notice you how? When I read FAQS, I read them
off of rtfm.mit.edu. And lucasfan.com would fail to be echostation.com.
>Well, Laura, guess where that file resides? That's correct! Right here on
>EchoStation's web server. We just happen to host the Official RASSM Homepage,
>and I'm quite happy to have them here via Lucasfan.com.
Whoops, I forgot the third way of lying about how many hits you get --
counting every hit on every site on your server as echostations. The light
dawns.
David R. Phillips
> Whoops, I forgot the third way of lying about how many hits you get --
> counting every hit on every site on your server as echostations. The light
> dawns.
...and sets just as quickly, since if I told you how many hits our entire server
gets, your head would likely explode <g> We also host sites like swdatabase.com,
outer-rim.net, and a few other sites out there...
...trust me, the total server hit counts are *much* higher than just ours :-)
Nice try though. You get an "A" for effort in trying to still find some way to
deny reality.
- dave
Loren Phillips
> Yes, and this should make me notice you how? When I read FAQS, I read them
> off of rtfm.mit.edu. And lucasfan.com would fail to be echostation.com.
The fact remains that the simple fact of your ignorance doesn't mean we haven't
been around a long time and have a huge audience. You, Laura, are obviously no
expert on Star Wars websites. However, I can see that you're obviously the type
who feels their own view of the world is all that exists.
> Whoops, I forgot the third way of lying about how many hits you get --
> counting every hit on every site on your server as echostations. The light
> dawns.
ROTFL!!!!!...you really are amazingly clueless about how a server log works, aren't
you? Perhaps you should take some classes before you pretend to know what you're
talking about...because you're certainly talking out of your ass on THIS topic. I'm
sure your local community college offers something that might help you get some of
the basics down.
-Loren
Chris Nelson
Sakura wrote in message <7jhd1t$oup$1...@hiram.io.com>...
>In article <375C311C...@echostation.com>,
>dave phillips <da...@nospam.echostation.com> wrote:
>* children scattering flowers
>
>I can hardly begin to talk about this. This idea was not
original to
>Gurney. People scattering flower petals in front of VIPs is
an old, old
>real-world custom. It happens at weddings. It turned into
confetti and
>'ticker-tape parades'
Flower scattering happens in the ancient Lotus Sutra, in
which great bodhisattvas, arhats and bhikshus scatter flowers
around the Buddha.
Perhaps the Buddha should sue Gunray, I mean, Gurney.
Chris Nelson
Jeffrey Wheeler
news:375DDE47...@nospam.echostation.com...
> You know, I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who are
discounting
> the plagiarism claim have never even read "Dinotopia".
In some cases this probably true, but I suspect the majority of people
realize "Dinotopia" is not particularly original itself and are more
concerned with the hypocrisy, ignorance, and general silliness involved in
claiming there is a case of bona fide plagiarism. As a critic, one of the
first things I look for is individuality (and having been plagiarized a few
times myself I know the deed first-hand), but what we are talking about
requires presumption that, even at its worst, points to nothing more than an
over-enthusiastic homage. These are daily occurrences and are not worth
reproaching anymore than they are worth praising. There are similarities
between Naboo and Dinotopia, but if we must condemn one for its
unoriginality than we must condemn the other. As it stands, the EchoStation
feature implies the law depends on individual mores, with social and
creative realities mysteriously absent from the discussion. It is fraudulent
journalism.
A final observation is that people who play vigilantes for the arts have
great impact when they put the spotlight on genuine plagiarists.
Jeffrey Wheeler
sha...@bellsouth.net