First Genuine Cloning of Mammal Reported in Our Galaxy
JamesWKing
Before there could ever be such a thing as Emperor Palpatine's Clone
Wars in a galaxy far, far away, there had to be a genuine eugenec
technology capable of cloning warm-blooded mammals, much less humanoids,
using cells from ideal adult subjects. And now it seems that our own Milky
Way Galaxy is catching up with fictional Faraway Galaxy's first cloning
efforts.
The Sunday, Feb. 23 CBS Evening News reported that British scientists
have just accomplished the first genuine cloning of a warm-blooded mammal
-- a lamb named Dolly -- by combining a single utter cell (from an adult
sheep) with a single fertilized egg stripped of its original genetic code.
Scientists hope to unravel the mysteries of the aging process and possibly
cures for cystic fibrosis by comparing cloned animals.
Addressing new ethics realms, Dr. Patrick Dixon, a British genetics
expert, asked, "What kind of ways could this new cloning technology be
abused by dictators? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to clone himself ?"
CBS Reporter Vicky Mabrey concluded her report, saying, "While the
cloning of humans is illegal in many countries, the danger is that in the
wrong hands, there's no telling how far this breakthrough will be taken."
-- James King
Dark Lord Karno Dal
On 24 Feb 1997, JamesWKing wrote:
> The Sunday, Feb. 23 CBS Evening News reported that British scientists
> have just accomplished the first genuine cloning of a warm-blooded mammal
> -- a lamb named Dolly -- by combining a single utter cell (from an adult
> sheep) with a single fertilized egg stripped of its original genetic code.
> Scientists hope to unravel the mysteries of the aging process and possibly
> cures for cystic fibrosis by comparing cloned animals.
Impressive......most impressive.
> Addressing new ethics realms, Dr. Patrick Dixon, a British genetics
> expert, asked, "What kind of ways could this new cloning technology be
> abused by dictators? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to clone himself ?"
>
> CBS Reporter Vicky Mabrey concluded her report, saying, "While the
> cloning of humans is illegal in many countries, the danger is that in the
> wrong hands, there's no telling how far this breakthrough will be taken."
I think we've just seen the plot for episode I. :)
May the Darkness be with you....
Dark Lord Karno Dal
si...@lords.com
I used to go by "Chris P. Layne," but that name no longer has any meaning for me,
at least while I'm on RASSM.
Bas-Jan Walewijk
JamesWKing <james...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970224095...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
(snip)
> The Sunday, Feb. 23 CBS Evening News reported that British scientists
> have just accomplished the first genuine cloning of a warm-blooded mammal
> -- a lamb named Dolly -- by combining a single utter cell (from an adult
> sheep) with a single fertilized egg stripped of its original genetic code.
> Scientists hope to unravel the mysteries of the aging process and possibly
> cures for cystic fibrosis by comparing cloned animals.
>
> Addressing new ethics realms, Dr. Patrick Dixon, a British genetics
> expert, asked, "What kind of ways could this new cloning technology be
> abused by dictators? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to clone himself ?"
Personally, I'd only be afraid of a Saddam clone if evil were a genetic trait.
I've heard of research on so-called "criminal genes", but other than the fact
that he'd look a lot like his "original", a Saddam clone might be a very
sympathetic guy... judging a clone by the actions of the cloner is probably
just as wrong as judging a son by the actions of his father.
Then again, take a look at Saddam's son...
> CBS Reporter Vicky Mabrey concluded her report, saying, "While the
> cloning of humans is illegal in many countries, the danger is that in the
> wrong hands, there's no telling how far this breakthrough will be taken."
Hmm... I still think it's cheaper and more reliable to get your human resources
the "conventional" way.
Bas-Jan
--
"Context is strawberries."
--
"Yesterday, some poor fellow was arrested in the rue Le Peletier -
on leaving the exhibition, he had begun biting the passers-by."
- review of the second Impressionist exhibition
--
Another genuine Official RASSM Cool Person. Beware imitations.
JamesWKing
Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
year away from fruition. They did not speculate who, if anyone, would or
could attempt it though, only that the scientific capability for human
cloning was within potential technological reach.
-- James King
Lobot E. Lobotics
I'm going to reply to these messages (even though they are not about Star
Wars) because they fasinate me and also scare me.
Now think people there would be tons of uses for human clones; more
soliders, more workers, etc. but think about what you would do if you were
a clone? You're still a human and to know that you are cloned from someone
else could be really devistating for you. If they cloned the same person
1,000 times to do work at a mine the clones would go into deep depression;
seeing their face all around them and would probably revlot or kill
themselves. Just because they are clones doesn't mean you can make them
slaves.
And of course there is the "bringing back loved ones" reason. If your wife
dies when she is 40 and you decided to clone her you will see her as a
child and she won't be 40 again until you are 80. And the clone will have
to deal with the fact that she has no mother or father, she really isn't
an individual, a clone.
I would like to see a clone, just for the fact that we can do it but at
the same time the possibility of clones running around is very scary.
-Sean "Lobot" Fitzgibbons
Eplicon
> Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
>cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
> year away from fruition.
Y'know, when I heard the report, all I could think about was The Clone
Wars, because of the serious implications this "technology" can do. If
everything they said about it was true (and I still have my doubts), one
can only imagine the "wars" to make it illegal/legal that might happen for
real...
---
/-Jack
epl...@aol.com
ra...@genie.com
ra...@compuserve.com
Chris Jensen
JamesWKing <james...@aol.com> wrote:
: Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
: cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
: could attempt it though, only that the scientific capability for human
: cloning was within potential technological reach.
Any scientist who would work on human cloning research is an unethical and
amoral individual. Human cloning research is banned in many countries,
and while that sort of law doesn't mesh well with the US constitution, our
government does not allow any federal funds to be provided for such
research, making it at least a little more difficult to accomplish. Go
ahead and clone livers, hearts, even new eyes, hands, etc. , but to raise
a fully formed human clone is, IMO not something the human race is ready
for. Will clones be full citizens? or just slaves to whoever created
them. Will there be clone armies? clone workers? clone geniuses??
(Imagine the technological edge you could have if you cloned 20 or 30
Einsteins to do R&D work for you). This is not an irrational fear of
technology or resistance to change, there are some things which do not
belong in this world, and this is one of them.
That's about all I've got to say about that.
Chris Jensen.
Scott Chitwood
What's this facination with sheep and cloning? You guys need more sheep
or something?
:)
Scott Chitwood
being tacky, needs sleep, must continue studying!!!!
JamesWKing wrote:
>
> Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
> cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
> year away from fruition. They did not speculate who, if anyone, would or
> could attempt it though, only that the scientific capability for human
> cloning was within potential technological reach.
>
> -- James King
Gerthein Boersma
The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
<This isn't really related to SW other than via the clone-wars, but
it's far too interesting not to discuss it here>.
First off, I believe the subject-header is not entirely correct:
similar experiments have been done with frogs (okay, no mammals) and
mic (definatly mammals). In fact, the mouse experiments went much
further, incorporating human tissue. The Ear-mouse (was that one made
in Holland?) made world news, as most will undoubtedly recall. I'm not
100% 'genuine' cloning was involved though, so perhaps you are right
and I am wrong here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> The Sunday, Feb. 23 CBS Evening News reported that British scientists
>have just accomplished the first genuine cloning of a warm-blooded mammal
>-- a lamb named Dolly -- by combining a single utter cell (from an adult
>sheep) with a single fertilized egg stripped of its original genetic code.
>Scientists hope to unravel the mysteries of the aging process and possibly
>cures for cystic fibrosis by comparing cloned animals.
Don't mean to sound nit-picky, but I think that's an 'udder' cel, not
an 'utter' cel. Am I right?
> Addressing new ethics realms, Dr. Patrick Dixon, a British genetics
>expert, asked, "What kind of ways could this new cloning technology be
>abused by dictators? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to clone himself ?"
If you are referring to the cloning (humans) technology allegedly
available within a year, then that would first be a baby Saddam, then
grow up to be genetically similar to Saddam. It doesn't have Saddam's
memories or anything, and because of different experiences in his life
he may grow up to be quite different from him.
This fact also nullifies the fear of another poster (lots of cloned
mine-workers). Afterall, there are thousands of babies born every day,
and they don't suffer horrible fates like that (although regrettably,
many of them suffer other horrible fates, but that's a whole other
matter).
It'll get very dangerous when they can clone people and make them
retain their age. That is still a long way off. And even then, having
them retain memories will be neigh-on impossible.
However, I share the concerns and reservations that many people have
towards this new technology. The fact is, we're not sure how far it
will go...
- Gerthein
-----------------------
gert...@worldaccess.nl
-----------------------
CavalierX
>What's this facination with sheep and cloning? You guys need more sheep
>or something?
>
>:)
>
>Scott Chitwood
>being tacky, needs sleep, must continue studying!!!!
Oh, ewe just don't understand the implications, do ya? :)
------------
"There is no such thing as gravity. The Earth sucks, is all."
http://members.aol.com/cavalierx/
"A King asked his wisest counsellors to find him one thing that would make
him happy when he was sad, but also make him sad when he was happy.
They conferred, and returned bearing a ring upon which was engraved the
words 'This Too Shall Pass'."
------------
Chris Jensen
Gerthein Boersma <gert...@worldaccess.nl> wrote:
: The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
: First off, I believe the subject-header is not entirely correct:
: similar experiments have been done with frogs (okay, no mammals) and
: mic (definatly mammals). In fact, the mouse experiments went much
: further, incorporating human tissue. The Ear-mouse (was that one made
: in Holland?) made world news, as most will undoubtedly recall. I'm not
: 100% 'genuine' cloning was involved though, so perhaps you are right
: and I am wrong here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You are only half wrong. The frog experiments made it as far as the
tadpole stage, but were unable to grow into adult frogs. The mice were
even less succesful and never even made it past a large blob of cells.
There is some (as yet unknown) property of sheep that makes cloning them
easier. The mouse-ear thing is pretty cool, I saw it on TV. Even cooler
is the fact that they don't even need the mouse anymore and can grow ears
independantly.
: Don't mean to sound nit-picky, but I think that's an 'udder' cel, not
: an 'utter' cel. Am I right?
yes
: > Addressing new ethics realms, Dr. Patrick Dixon, a British genetics
: >expert, asked, "What kind of ways could this new cloning technology be
: >abused by dictators? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to clone himself ?"
: If you are referring to the cloning (humans) technology allegedly
: available within a year, then that would first be a baby Saddam, then
: grow up to be genetically similar to Saddam. It doesn't have Saddam's
: memories or anything, and because of different experiences in his life
: he may grow up to be quite different from him.
The clone doesn't have to be like him mentally. Imagine the possibility
of a brain transplant (not too far fetched really). Now Saddam has a few
clones grown, when his original body starts to deteriorate, he has one of
his clones fully lobotomized (effectively murdering the clone) and has his
evil brain transplanted into the fresh body. Voila, the world is
subjected to another 40 years of Saddam.
: This fact also nullifies the fear of another poster (lots of cloned
: mine-workers). Afterall, there are thousands of babies born every day,
: and they don't suffer horrible fates like that (although regrettably,
: many of them suffer other horrible fates, but that's a whole other
: matter).
I agree with Bas-Jen that for the moment, making babies the old fashioned
way is cheaper and more efficient. But like every other technology, this
one will become more efficient over time. A slightly less repugnant
possibility (in reference to slave-clones) is a "baby store" Do you want
a boy or girl? tall, short, athletic, super genius? just pay the fee, add
the options you want and a few months later you can come pick up your
custom child
: It'll get very dangerous when they can clone people and make them
: retain their age. That is still a long way off. And even then, having
: them retain memories will be neigh-on impossible.
Not neccessary, see my brain transplant theory above.
: However, I share the concerns and reservations that many people have
: towards this new technology. The fact is, we're not sure how far it
: will go...
The sky is the limit. Science Fiction very often becomes science fact.
Read Jules Verne, at the time his stories were written they were pure
fantasy, now almost every technology he dreamed up is available in
reality. Isaac Asimov's robots and artificial intelligence are developing
fields, and there are many more examples. Be careful what you ask for,
you just might get it.
Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu>
"We're all fine here, now, thank you...how are you?"
babo...@onramp.net
Who needs the Prequels? In a few decades we may have our own version of
the Clone Wars on our hands. Hopefully, the sheep won't have blaster
technology by then otherwise our world may begin to resemble The Far
Side. ;)
Scott Narowetz
usher
gert...@worldaccess.nl (Gerthein Boersma) wrote:
>The Ear-mouse (was that one made in Holland?) made world news, as
>most will undoubtedly recall. I'm not 100% 'genuine' cloning was
>involved though, so perhaps you are right and I am wrong here.
>Correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, in this you are incorrect. What they did was grow human
cartiledge (sp) on a framework which they had inserted under the skin.
In no way were the mouse's cells involved in the tissue generation
experiment. The cartiledge cells were not cloned, but grown.
Now they don't even need animals for this process.
usher
Rambling Old Jedi Engineer, RASSM rascal & Scoundrel
official RASSM chosen smartass
AFC member
Awarded the HNTC Award for Valor during the Debacle at Hallifax
Survived Sith War I (1996) with my ship intact.
I disapprove of what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire
Use soft words and hard arguments. - English proverb
The only dumb question is the unasked one.
"It isn't even wrong." - Wolfgang Pauli
Artist & Author of stuff. Down with the CDA. Up with Prop. 309.
<*> http://members.tripod.com/~Melosh/swlinks.html & index.html
"pages by usher(tm)" - coming soon to a website near you
Woodchuck Takeuchi
In article <19970224194...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
JamesWKing <james...@aol.com> wrote:
> Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
>cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
>year away from fruition. They did not speculate who, if anyone, would or
>could attempt it though, only that the scientific capability for human
>cloning was within potential technological reach.
That would be cool. "Twins on demand."
>
>
>
>
>-- James King
>
>
>
>
--
E. Kenji Takeuchi ______/---------_______
____------- / -----_
__-- /enji /akeuchi------
-____________---/---------/-----________ wood...@brown.edu
Woodchuck Takeuchi
In article <19970224212...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Eplicon <epl...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
>>cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
>> year away from fruition.
>
>Wars, because of the serious implications this "technology" can do. If
>everything they said about it was true (and I still have my doubts), one
>can only imagine the "wars" to make it illegal/legal that might happen for
>real...
>
Yeah, pundits vs. pudits and extremists vs. extremist... :-(
>---
>/-Jack
>
>epl...@aol.com
>ra...@genie.com
>ra...@compuserve.com
>
Matt
Woodchuck Takeuchi wrote:
>
> In article <19970224212...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
> Eplicon <epl...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> Update: CNN reported Monday, Feb. 24 in its own story about the
> >>cloned sheep that speculation was that actual human cloning may only be a
> >> year away from fruition.
> >
> >Y'know, when I heard the report, all I could think about was The Clone
> >Wars, because of the serious implications this "technology" can do. If
> >everything they said about it was true (and I still have my doubts), one
> >can only imagine the "wars" to make it illegal/legal that might happen for
> >real...
> >
>
> Yeah, pundits vs. pudits and extremists vs. extremist... :-(
>
I don't think that cloning of people will ever be much of a popular
thing on this plent with 8 billion people, whose population will double
soon, quadruple later, and then shrink after millions of people starve
and/or people get smart and use freakin' condoms.
Clones would simply add more weight.
And piss off God. :)
-Matt
tma...@wsunix.wsu.edu
tma...@wsunix.wsu.edu
tma...@wsunix.wsu.edu wrote:
>babo...@onramp.net wrote:
>>Who needs the Prequels? In a few decades we may have our own version of
>>the Clone Wars on our hands. Hopefully, the sheep won't have blaster
>>technology by then otherwise our world may begin to resemble The Far
>>Side. ;)
I can see it now:
Not so long ago in a galaxy called the Milky Way.....
<cue SW music>
Sheep Wars: ANP (A New Pasture) --
"Help me Obi Baaa Kenobi you're my only hope!" ;-)
Elson Trinidad
Wow, did you hear that? Lucas is planning to bring a production crew to
Scotland. Turns out he wants the cloned sheep to play a character in the
Clone Wars sequence...Of course, it will get the CGI treatment.
Gerthein Boersma
The one and only y...@somewhere.intime (usher) wrote:
>gert...@worldaccess.nl (Gerthein Boersma) wrote:
>>The Ear-mouse (was that one made in Holland?) made world news, as
>>most will undoubtedly recall. I'm not 100% 'genuine' cloning was
>>involved though, so perhaps you are right and I am wrong here.
>>Correct me if I'm wrong.
>Well, in this you are incorrect. What they did was grow human
>cartiledge (sp) on a framework which they had inserted under the skin.
>In no way were the mouse's cells involved in the tissue generation
>experiment. The cartiledge cells were not cloned, but grown.
>Now they don't even need animals for this process.
I stand corrected. There have been experiments with frog cloning
though. Although that's no mammal, and sheep are sufficiently..
well..*big*.. to draw the line to humans.
usher
gert...@worldaccess.nl (Gerthein Boersma) wrote:
>I stand corrected. There have been experiments with frog cloning
>though. Although that's no mammal, and sheep are sufficiently..
>well..*big*.. to draw the line to humans.
Amphibians seem to have a property which allows them to clone parts of
their bodies and regrow them. That is why they were the first to be
studied for cloning research.
I wonder if Xizor would be easier to clone than a human.
usher
Rambling Old Jedi Engineer, RASSM rascal & Scoundrel
official RASSM chosen smartass
AFC member
The Stormtrooper doesn't hit his head.
JamesWKing
Elson Trinidad (el...@westworld.com): "Wow, did you hear that? Lucas is
planning to bring a production crew to Scotland. Turns out he wants the
it will get the CGI treatment."
Baaaaa Ram Ewe, to your own movie genre be true!
-- James King
Eric Mohler
In article <331480e3...@news.utk.edu>, usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
>gert...@worldaccess.nl (Gerthein Boersma) wrote:
>
>>I stand corrected. There have been experiments with frog cloning
>>though. Although that's no mammal, and sheep are sufficiently..
>>well..*big*.. to draw the line to humans.
>
>Amphibians seem to have a property which allows them to clone parts of
>their bodies and regrow them. That is why they were the first to be
>studied for cloning research.
>
>I wonder if Xizor would be easier to clone than a human.
>
>usher
There are amphibians that naturally clone themselves. I TA a class on
hormones, reproduction, and behavior, and we talk about salamanders in
the US southwest that reproduce asexually (and are thus clones).
Amphibians are not a big deal to clone. I don't know what the hell Xixor
is, but if Lucas could clone Han Solo (Dash Rendar), he can clone anyone :)
Eric
***************************************************************************
* Eric G. Mohler "I grew up here." "You're gonna die here too, *
* Dept. of Psychology kid. Kind of convenient." - Han to Luke, ROTJ *
* (Biological Area) *
* Duke University My purpose-less website: http://www.duke.edu/~egm *
***************************************************************************
Rimrunner
Oddly enough, this is a subject that's pretty common in science fiction.
Yes, I'm being just a *tad* sarcastic here.
May I recommend "Brave New World," a literary classic in its own right?
Also "Cyteen," by C.J. Cherryh. She uses clones in her futuristic
universe, but this is one of the few novels set in the society that
created and used the technology.
Rimrunner
send in the clones
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Chris Jensen
Eric Mohler <e...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
: In article <331480e3...@news.utk.edu>, usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
: >Amphibians seem to have a property which allows them to clone parts of
: >their bodies and regrow them. That is why they were the first to be
: >studied for cloning research.
: >
: >I wonder if Xizor would be easier to clone than a human.
: >
: >usher
: There are amphibians that naturally clone themselves. I TA a class on
: hormones, reproduction, and behavior, and we talk about salamanders in
: the US southwest that reproduce asexually (and are thus clones).
: Amphibians are not a big deal to clone. I don't know what the hell Xixor
: is, but if Lucas could clone Han Solo (Dash Rendar), he can clone anyone :)
To my knowledge none of the frog cloning experiments were entirely
successful. They managed to grow frog clones into tadpoles but they
didn't develop into frogs. About these salamanders...how do they mix
genetic material from individual to individual? If they don't do this
wouldn't the population eventually seperate into many individual species
due to differing mutations in individual "family trees" of salamanders?
Eric Mohler
In article <5f4bgv$7...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>,
Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu> wrote:
>Eric Mohler <e...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>: There are amphibians that naturally clone themselves. I TA a class on
>: hormones, reproduction, and behavior, and we talk about salamanders in
>: the US southwest that reproduce asexually (and are thus clones).
>: Amphibians are not a big deal to clone. I don't know what the hell Xixor
>: is, but if Lucas could clone Han Solo (Dash Rendar), he can clone anyone :)
>To my knowledge none of the frog cloning experiments were entirely
>successful. They managed to grow frog clones into tadpoles but they
>didn't develop into frogs. About these salamanders...how do they mix
>genetic material from individual to individual? If they don't do this
>wouldn't the population eventually seperate into many individual species
>due to differing mutations in individual "family trees" of salamanders?
>
>Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu>
>"We're all fine here, now, thank you...how are you?"
These salamanders don't mix genetic material from individual to
individual, but rather develop from an egg from a single parent (not
fertilized by another). I'm not sure about issues of genetic drift but
mixing genes will lead to different species quicker than not mixing. The
genetic material three generations down of one of these salamanders will
be more similar than a sexually reproducing organism's genetic material.
There is a problem with not mixing genes up that these salamanders can
run into. One possible reason for the development of sexual reproduction
was to vary the organism a fair amount from the parent so that all those
little critters that live in our digestive tracts, and other places don't
get a leg up on a species by having adapted to the parent. So both gut
fauna (stuff like E Coli) and host organism are continually adapating,
and trying to out race each other. In Evolutionary Biology this is
referred to as the "Red Queen Syndrome" because the organisms never stop
running. A salamander that had an identical physical make-up to its
parent would be more likely to be taken over (and killed) by rambunctious
bacteria.
So how does this all relate to Star Wars? Hell if I know! But the Red
Queen Syndrome is discussed in the book The Lost World: Jurassic Park, whose
visual effects are being done by ILM. The Circle is now complete... :)
usher
rim...@halcyon.com (Rimrunner) wrote:
>Oddly enough, this is a subject that's pretty common in science
>fiction. Yes, I'm being just a *tad* sarcastic here.
>
>May I recommend "Brave New World," a literary classic in its own
>right?
A very good book and one which exemplifies the fears of those against
the cloning of humans.
usher
e...@acpub.duke.edu (Eric Mohler) wrote:
> usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
>>I wonder if Xizor would be easier to clone than a human.
>I don't know what the hell Xixor is, but if Lucas could clone Han
>Solo (Dash Rendar), he can clone anyone :)
Hmmm. You recognize Dash Rendar, but not Xizor? Xizor is the big
baddie in Shadows of the Empire (book).
I definately don't like how they split the story up amoung different
formats. IMNSHO, they should have told the _entire_ story in each
format if they wanted multiple formats.
Eric Mohler
In article <3315d1c8...@news.utk.edu>, usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
>e...@acpub.duke.edu (Eric Mohler) wrote:
>
>> usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
>>>I wonder if Xizor would be easier to clone than a human.
>
>>I don't know what the hell Xixor is, but if Lucas could clone Han
>>Solo (Dash Rendar), he can clone anyone :)
>
>Hmmm. You recognize Dash Rendar, but not Xizor? Xizor is the big
>baddie in Shadows of the Empire (book).
>
>Usher
I know Xixor is the baddie from Shadows of the Empire. I meant that I
didn't know what species he was, but if Lucas could clone Han Solo (a
human), he could clone anybody or any species. (I didn't actually read
Shadows of the Empire, but I read enough spoilers on RASSM to know what
it was about).
JamesWKing
Eric Mohler (e...@acpub.duke.edu): "I know Xixor is the baddie from
'Shadows of the Empire.' I meant that I didn't know what species he was,
but if Lucas could clone Han Solo (a human), he could clone anybody or any
species. (I didn't actually read 'Shadows of the Empire,' but I read
enough spoilers on RASSM to know what it was about)."
Xixor seemed a near clone-hybrid of the original Ming the Merciless
from "Flash Gordon" and the new animated series' more reptilian Ming the
Merciless. And Dash Rendar seemed more like Flash Rendered -- Flash
Gordon, that is, in the Star Wars Universe.
-- James King
Hernan Espinoza
cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) writes:
Re: Parthenogenic salamanders
>To my knowledge none of the frog cloning experiments were entirely
>successful. They managed to grow frog clones into tadpoles but they
>didn't develop into frogs. About these salamanders...how do they mix
>genetic material from individual to individual?
They don't. Each member of a female-only population lays
didploid eggs which just begin to develop into another genetically
identical individual.
> If they don't do this
>wouldn't the population eventually seperate into many individual species
>due to differing mutations in individual "family trees" of salamanders?
No,but only because these populations don't tend to last all that
long. (At least, this is true of parthenogenic lizards) BTW, how
do you think species arise if not by accumulation of differing mutations
within individual "family trees" (all life on this planet is blood
related on some level..one big family tree). Of course, if you are
a creationist, none of this applies. (To each his own)
-Hernan
Hernan Espinoza
cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) writes:
>Will clones be full citizens? or just slaves to whoever created
>them.
If they are born on our soil, they are citizens of this
country with all the protections thereof <period>. Right now,
it's that simple.
>Will there be clone armies?
Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old fashioned
way still works best. Furthermore, armies made up of genetically
identical soldiers would be very susceptible to biological weapons
(or just certain diseases in general), so tactically it's not a great
idea. I'm not saying it can't happen, it's just not as easy or as practical
as you might fear.
> clone workers?
See above.
> clone geniuses??
>(Imagine the technological edge you could have if you cloned 20 or 30
>Einsteins to do R&D work for you).
Who might not be as good as the originals if not raised the
same way and wouldn't do you a bit of good for 20-30 years (if ever).
Genius is not just a function of having the right genes, you also
have to have the right experiences. That is a _lot_ more difficult
and if you get it wrong that's millions and decades down the tubes.
It would be easier to find the right people from existing sources.
Although a team of Einstein clones would make good PR, they might
not be as good for R&D. Again, it's not impossible, but impractical.
> This is not an irrational fear of
>technology or resistance to change, there are some things which do not
>belong in this world, and this is one of them.
There are rational ways to believe certain technologies are
a bad idea. -Hernan
Eric Mohler
In article <19970227211...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
That's a good point.
I never thought of it that way, but comparing Xixor to Ming, Dash Rendar
to Flash, and Leia to Dale Arden makes Shadows of the Empire look like
another cloning of Flash Gordon, which is so ironic as SW was inspired by
Flash Gordon to begin with. From what I understand, Xixor tries to
seduce Leia, so that makes even more similarities between Shadows and
Flash Gordon (I'm using the 1980 movie as reference for good or bad) than
Star Wars originally had.
Gerthein Boersma
The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
> Baaaaa Ram Ewe, to your own movie genre be true!
Ah. is it "Name that reference"-time again? This sounds vaguely
familiar.. I'm guessing 'movie genre' be replaced by something but..
where is it from?
Gerthein Boersma
The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
> Xixor seemed a near clone-hybrid of the original Ming the Merciless
>from "Flash Gordon" and the new animated series' more reptilian Ming the
>Merciless. And Dash Rendar seemed more like Flash Rendered -- Flash
>Gordon, that is, in the Star Wars Universe.
His name is Xizor, I think, but you're right: he looks quite like Ming
(BTW, I think the name of his race in Shadows is Falleen). Dash is
also pretty much like Flash, but seeing as both Han and Luke have
Flash Gordon-esque characteristics (we all know about FG's influences
on SW), that's not so far fetched. He's as much a Han clone as a Flash
clone (although the name-similarity is uncanny).
Bas-Jan Walewijk
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote in article
<espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>...
> Furthermore, armies made up of genetically
> identical soldiers would be very susceptible to biological weapons
> (or just certain diseases in general), so tactically it's not a great
> idea. I'm not saying it can't happen, it's just not as easy or as practical
> as you might fear.
A disturbing thought: what if you'd capture one of these clones, clone him
yourself and send him into battle against the enemy? Would the enemy clones be
less apt to kill an identical-looking "brother"?
There's a halfway decent story struggling to get out of this one, y'know, but I
haven't the time to write it. Studios, however, are free to contact me for
negotiations over the movie rights. :-)
Bas-Jan
--
"Context is strawberries."
--
"Yesterday, some poor fellow was arrested in the rue Le Peletier -
on leaving the exhibition, he had begun biting the passers-by."
- review of the second Impressionist exhibition
--
Another genuine Official RASSM Cool Person. Beware imitations.
Bonnie S Walling
In article <5f84jd$e...@netnews.upenn.edu>, by...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Eric
J Bycer) wrote:
> Gerthein Boersma (gert...@worldaccess.nl) wrote:
> : The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
>
> : > Baaaaa Ram Ewe, to your own movie genre be true!
>
> : Ah. is it "Name that reference"-time again? This sounds vaguely
> : familiar.. I'm guessing 'movie genre' be replaced by something but..
> : where is it from?
>
> Hamlet, Act I (I think)
> "This above all, to thine own self be true."
> Polonius to Laertes.
>
> Though James' version almost sounds like he meant it to be "Remember, to
> thine own self be true."
>
> Well?
>
> Eric Bycer
> 674 'til 1,000!
The reference was to the movie "Babe." The title character had to learn a
"secret sheep password" in order to win a sheep hearding contest. I
believe the password in the movie was something like "Baaa Ram Ewe, Baa
Ram Ewe, to thy flock, thy meadow, thy valley be true."
--
"Stock footage is hell!"--Crow T. Robot, MST3K ("Amazing Colossal Man")
Eric J Bycer
Paula
Aww come on!!! It's from Babe... or Doom.
Eric J Bycer <by...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<5f84jd$e...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
D and T
Hi!
It's from "BABE"! My fourth favorite movie of all time! (Third if I'm
feeling real cynical about ROTJ).
"Baaaa Ram Ewe, Baaaaa Ram Ewe. To your breed, your fleece, your clan be
true. Sheep be true! Baaaa Ram Ewe!"
"Is that it? Is that the password?"
- Terri
by...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Eric J Bycer) wrote:
JamesWKing
D and T (set...@ix.netcom.com): "Hi! It's from 'BABE'! My fourth
favorite movie of all time! (Third if I'm feeling real cynical about
ROTJ). 'Baaaa Ram Ewe, Baaaaa Ram Ewe. To your breed, your fleece, your
clan be
true. Sheep be true! Baaaa Ram Ewe!' Is that it? Is that the password?"
Bingo!*
-- James King
__________________________________
*Not a quote from the unacclaimed but goofily fun movie "Bingo" which
spoofs Lassie, Rin-Tin-Tin and Benji movies.
Gerthein Boersma
The one and only sun...@exit109.com (Bonnie S Walling) wrote:
>The reference was to the movie "Babe." The title character had to learn a
>"secret sheep password" in order to win a sheep hearding contest. I
>believe the password in the movie was something like "Baaa Ram Ewe, Baa
>Ram Ewe, to thy flock, thy meadow, thy valley be true."
Thought it was Babe, but I never saw it. Thank God it wasn't Hamlet, I
would have killed myself for not getting a Shakespear reference ;-).
Guess Bonnie wins the prize, eh James?
JamesWKing
This weekend, CNN and other major news services announced that
American scientists (in Oregon?) had cloned monkey embryos. The purpose of
their research is said to be for cloning individual body parts (without
cloning an entire individual).
Also, on CNN's Talk Back Live this last week, a science author said
that he had originally speculated in his upcoming book that human cloning
was 100 years from becoming reality. After last weekend's revelation about
the sheep cloning, he said he was going to have to revise and rewrite that
entire chapter of his book altogether. As CNN News earlier reported last
week, speculation is now that human cloning may only be as short as a year
away from becoming reality. With this most recently disclosure about
monkey cloning, who knows, it could be even shorter.
-- James King
Gerthein Boersma
james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
Interesting. That part about the science author having to re-write a
chapter shows that this really is a break-through.
Out of curiosity, since you started this interesting thread yet have
only quoted news articles so far: what's *your* opinion on this new
breakthrough?
Chris Jensen
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
: cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) writes:
: >Will clones be full citizens? or just slaves to whoever created
: >them.
: If they are born on our soil, they are citizens of this
: country with all the protections thereof <period>. Right now,
: it's that simple.
I'll buy that, but there are many countries that might not see it that
way.
: >Will there be clone armies?
: Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
: lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old fashioned
: way still works best. Furthermore, armies made up of genetically
: identical soldiers would be very susceptible to biological weapons
: (or just certain diseases in general), so tactically it's not a great
: idea. I'm not saying it can't happen, it's just not as easy or as practical
: as you might fear.
practical? not yet, and yes the old fashioned way will probably be best
for a long time (if not always), but technology has this strange nack for
improving at an exponential rate. I would not feel too silly in saying
that at some point it won't take 400 tries for one lamb, but that we will
get 400 lambs in one try!
: > clone workers?
: See above.
ditto.
: > clone geniuses??
: >(Imagine the technological edge you could have if you cloned 20 or 30
: >Einsteins to do R&D work for you).
: Who might not be as good as the originals if not raised the
: same way and wouldn't do you a bit of good for 20-30 years (if ever).
: Genius is not just a function of having the right genes, you also
: have to have the right experiences. That is a _lot_ more difficult
: and if you get it wrong that's millions and decades down the tubes.
: It would be easier to find the right people from existing sources.
: Although a team of Einstein clones would make good PR, they might
: not be as good for R&D. Again, it's not impossible, but impractical.
Human clones certainly would help put to rest the issue of how much of the
human personality and ability is due to genetics and how much is learned.
Some research on identical twins (essentially natural clones) which have
been seperated at birth, indicates that ability and personality can be
influenced by genetics.
: > This is not an irrational fear of
: >technology or resistance to change, there are some things which do not
: >belong in this world, and this is one of them.
: There are rational ways to believe certain technologies are
: a bad idea. -Hernan
Thank you.
Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.iee.uh.edu>
Chris Jensen
Distribution:
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
: cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) writes:
: Re: Parthenogenic salamanders
: > If they don't do this
: >wouldn't the population eventually seperate into many individual species
: >due to differing mutations in individual "family trees" of salamanders?
: No,but only because these populations don't tend to last all that
: long. (At least, this is true of parthenogenic lizards) BTW, how
Interesting
: do you think species arise if not by accumulation of differing mutations
: within individual "family trees" (all life on this planet is blood
: related on some level..one big family tree). Of course, if you are
: a creationist, none of this applies. (To each his own)
: -Hernan
I'm just wondering how these salamanders have survived up to the present
day. As soon as a fatal or crippling mutation is introduced it will be
passed on to the children (if the individual even lasts long enough to
produce any) and presto, that line of salamanders is extinct. Cloning as
a means of reproduction seems to me to be far inferior to the sexual
method, and I am surprised that a complex organism like a salamander could
propogate itself for any extended period of time in this manner. And no,
I'm not a creationist.
Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu>
Chris Jensen
Bas-Jan Walewijk <bas...@seneca.demon.nl> wrote:
: Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote in article
: <espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>...
: > Furthermore, armies made up of genetically
: > identical soldiers would be very susceptible to biological weapons
: > (or just certain diseases in general), so tactically it's not a great
: > as you might fear.
: A disturbing thought: what if you'd capture one of these clones, clone him
: yourself and send him into battle against the enemy? Would the enemy clones
: be less apt to kill an identical-looking "brother"?
genetically engineer several "models" of soldier, each tailored for a
specific task. These neo sapiens need not even look human, and preferably
would be raised in a totally controlled environment for best results. The
djinni is out of his bottle, and there is no way to put him back, though
it's not too late to make him our friend.
Greg H.
>: >Will there be clone armies?
>: Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
>: lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old fashioned
>: way still works best. Furthermore, armies made up of genetically
>: identical soldiers would be very susceptible to biological weapons
>: (or just certain diseases in general), so tactically it's not a great
>: idea. I'm not saying it can't happen, it's just not as easy or as practical
>: as you might fear.
>practical? not yet, and yes the old fashioned way will probably be best
>for a long time (if not always), but technology has this strange nack for
>improving at an exponential rate. I would not feel too silly in saying
>that at some point it won't take 400 tries for one lamb, but that we will
>get 400 lambs in one try!
>
Many comments related to the cloning debate seem to assume that there
is some important property to cloning other than the **source** of the
genes, as though these armies will be incubated in and birthed from
vats full of chemicals. Once people realize that cloned embryos
develop just like normal embryos, carried to term in a feeling, caring
mother's womb, born like a normal baby, nursed like a normal baby,
raised like a normal baby, then all of this discussion about the
child's rights and evil intents sort of vanish, unless we assume that
harvesting fetuses or newborns for their organs or training them from
birth to be soldiers will become legal at some point in the future.
I'd agree that these nasty visions are worth discussing and
preventing, but they could all be done today with regular, uncloned
fetuses produced either naturally or by artificial insemination, etc.
The cloning of humans is not necessary for any of this. Anybody who
wanted to harvest a cloned infant's organs would have to rip it from
its mother's arms and convince a jury that murdering an infant is okay
if the genes come from one adult instead of two. That just ain't gonna
happen.
A more pressing debate would surround the incubation of fetuses in
machines rather than human wombs--technology that is nowhere on the
horizon. Cloning (copying an existing organism--that's all.) is an
entirely separate issue. The only ethical debates regarding this
genetic copying that make any sense to me involve the appropriateness
of creating a child who is likely to have an unusual self-identity, as
twins do. I mean, would it be ethical to create twins from one
normally produced embryo? (This is actually very simple to do.) Maybe,
maybe not. Interesting discussion. But all this talk about cloning, as
though mindless drones will be mass-produced in underground military
warehouses is rather silly and suggests to me that some people lack an
understanding of what the technology is all about.
(My opinions here completely disregard all argements of the "against
God's way" weave. That's a different discussion altogether, and my
short answer is that condoms, c-sections, and even eating broccoli (it
was bred from cabbage) and even agriculture are not nature's or God's
way,*if* he indeed has "a way" which he would have us follow. If we
allow these arguments to creep into the cloning debate, we might as
well question the rightness of all 20th century technology on the same
grounds. )
Greg Helmstetter
Rimrunner
In article <5fer6k$8...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>,
Chris Jensen <cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu> wrote:
>Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>: Who might not be as good as the originals if not raised the
>: same way and wouldn't do you a bit of good for 20-30 years (if ever).
>: Genius is not just a function of having the right genes, you also
>: have to have the right experiences. That is a _lot_ more difficult
>: and if you get it wrong that's millions and decades down the tubes.
>: It would be easier to find the right people from existing sources.
>: Although a team of Einstein clones would make good PR, they might
>: not be as good for R&D. Again, it's not impossible, but impractical.
>Human clones certainly would help put to rest the issue of how much of the
>human personality and ability is due to genetics and how much is learned.
>Some research on identical twins (essentially natural clones) which have
>been seperated at birth, indicates that ability and personality can be
>influenced by genetics.
>
There is a novel I read several years that was about this specific
subject. It was a YA novel, and it's now out of print, but it is worth
reading. It's called "Anna to the Infinite Power," and it's written by
Mildred Ames.
Basically it's about this girl who sees a double of herself one day, and
goes on to discover that she's actually a clone of a brilliant scientist
whose parents died in the Holocaust. Everything goes great, until the
clones hit adolescence. Then they start to diversify. I think the idea
wasn't so much nature-vs-nurture -- although that was a secondary aspect
-- as that the technology wasn't perfected yet, and the onset of
adolescence caused mutation away from the original pattern.
I don't know enough biology to know if this is even plausible, but it was
a very interesting book. Worth reading if you can find it.
Rimrunner
still got a copy somewhere
Rimrunner
In article <5f84jd$e...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Eric J Bycer <by...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Gerthein Boersma (gert...@worldaccess.nl) wrote:
>: The one and only james...@aol.com (JamesWKing) wrote:
>
>: > Baaaaa Ram Ewe, to your own movie genre be true!
>
>: Ah. is it "Name that reference"-time again? This sounds vaguely
>: familiar.. I'm guessing 'movie genre' be replaced by something but..
>: where is it from?
>
>Hamlet, Act I (I think)
>"This above all, to thine own self be true."
>Polonius to Laertes.
>
*Vanna White emerges from the wings, carrying one of the claymation sheep
from the Wallace & Gromit film "A Close Shave," complete with his cute
little sweater*
As an aside, it's interesting that most of the frequently quoted lines
from "Hamlet" are spoken by Polonius, seeing as how that character is
considered a blithering idiot by the rest of the cast, especially Hamlet.
(Branagh really accentuated in his version, playing the Hamlet-Polonius
dialogues totally for laughs.)
Rimrunner
mmmm, Kenneth Branagh
Hernan Espinoza
cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) writes:
Re: Parthenogenic salamanders
:> do you think species arise if not by accumulation of differing mutations
:> within individual "family trees" (all life on this planet is blood
:> related on some level..one big family tree). Of course, if you are
:> a creationist, none of this applies. (To each his own)
>I'm just wondering how these salamanders have survived up to the present
>day. As soon as a fatal or crippling mutation is introduced it will be
>passed on to the children (if the individual even lasts long enough to
>produce any) and presto, that line of salamanders is extinct. Cloning as
>a means of reproduction seems to me to be far inferior to the sexual
>method, and I am surprised that a complex organism like a salamander could
>propogate itself for any extended period of time in this manner.
Actually, the most successful organisms (by most definitions)
on the planet right now reproduce asexually...bacteria and archae.
OTOH, in the case of vertebrate parthenotes, you're right, these populations
don't last very long (geological sense). However, we see them today
even if they don't last long because it has happened multiple times.
Every parthenogenic species(~10) of lizard seems to have arisen independently
from a sexually reproducing population [by hybridization, I think].
>And no, I'm not a creationist.
You know, now that I re-read what I wrote, it is harsher than I meant
it to. I apologize. Cya! -Hernan
D and T
rim...@halcyon.com (Rimrunner) wrote:
>: > Baaaaa Ram Ewe, to your own movie genre be true!
>>
>>: Ah. is it "Name that reference"-time again? This sounds vaguely
>>: familiar.. I'm guessing 'movie genre' be replaced by something but..
>>: where is it from?
>>
>>Hamlet, Act I (I think)
>>"This above all, to thine own self be true."
>Yep, I do believe that's it. Give the man his prize!
Hi!
Actually, it's from "BABE"! My fourth favorite movie of all time!
"Baaa Ram Ewe, Baa Ram Ewe... to your breed, your fleece, your clan be
true. Sheep Be True! Baaaa Ram Ewe!"
It's the password!
- Terri
Bas-Jan Walewijk
Rimrunner <rim...@halcyon.com> wrote in article <5fhv30$hmo$1...@halcyon.com>...
>
> There is a novel I read several years that was about this specific
> subject. It was a YA novel, and it's now out of print, but it is worth
> reading. It's called "Anna to the Infinite Power," and it's written by
> Mildred Ames.
>
> Basically it's about this girl who sees a double of herself one day, and
> goes on to discover that she's actually a clone of a brilliant scientist
> whose parents died in the Holocaust. Everything goes great, until the
> clones hit adolescence. Then they start to diversify. I think the idea
> wasn't so much nature-vs-nurture -- although that was a secondary aspect
> -- as that the technology wasn't perfected yet, and the onset of
> adolescence caused mutation away from the original pattern.
Now I'm *very* confused. I read a story with - I believe - that exact name, and
the Holocaust definitely was involved as well. But it was not a YA novel, it
was a short story in some Oxford sci-fi collection (can't remember the author
of the story, the book wasn't mine). Tell me, do you remember if there was any
episode in the book in which the girl "feels" the same things her mother does
(namely the Holocaust memories)?
To me, the story never seemed to have a real "point", so maybe this explains
it.
Eric J Bycer
Having been told that I am wrong in several different articles in this
thread, I'll choose this one (James King's verification of the answer to
his question) to respond to.
JamesWKing (james...@aol.com) wrote:
: D and T (set...@ix.netcom.com): "Hi! It's from 'BABE'! My fourth
: favorite movie of all time! (Third if I'm feeling real cynical about
: ROTJ). 'Baaaa Ram Ewe, Baaaaa Ram Ewe. To your breed, your fleece, your
: clan be
: true. Sheep be true! Baaaa Ram Ewe!' Is that it? Is that the password?"
: Bingo!*
Crap. Having never seen Babe before (and no desire to anyway), I feel
that this was a loaded question, a question that could only be answered
by those who had actually seen the movie in question.
Although in retrospect, with the sheep cloning episode, and the Baaaa Ram
Ewe (a sheep call) Ram (a ram) and ewe (a sheep) I should have seen that
one coming from a mile away.
Forgive me as I retreat to my lonely Shakespeare. Which shall it be
tonight? The Merchant of Venice? A Midsummer Night's Dream? Henry IV
part I?
: -- James King
Good question, I suppose. Good movie? Should I check it out?
Eric Bycer
Do you think I have a chance at proving that the writers of Babe may have
borrowed that line from Hamlet? If so, would that make me right as
well? I guess I can't win. Next question, James?
666 'til 1,000!
^^^ I've got a bad feeling about this!
JamesWKing
Gerthein Boersma: "Interesting. That part about the science author having
to re-write a chapter (of his book on cloning -- he'd originally predicted
it was some 100 years away) shows that this really is a break-through. Out
of curiosity, since you started this interesting thread yet have only
quoted news articles so far: what's *your* opinion on this new
breakthrough?"
I'll be revealing my opinion of cloning in my own response to the the
Making-of Prequel Trilogy "What If..." Scenario thread concerning whether
the Pope should be cast as a anti-clone character like a Jedi Knight or
Old Republic official. (I don't wanna duplicate the same commentary here
because it seems more appropriate to me to post it in that other thread.)
--- James King
JamesWKing
By the way, Cloning is still legal in America; however, President
Clinton weighed in with an opinion on the matter on Tuesday, March 4
that, if memory serves, seems rather prejudicial, at least according to
some news commentators.
-- James King
Rimrunner
In article <01bc2903$68ec7960$85e4...@seneca.demon.nl>,
Bas-Jan Walewijk <bas...@seneca.demon.nl> wrote:
>
>Rimrunner <rim...@halcyon.com> wrote in article <5fhv30$hmo$1...@halcyon.com>...
>>
>> There is a novel I read several years that was about this specific
>> subject. It was a YA novel, and it's now out of print, but it is worth
>> reading. It's called "Anna to the Infinite Power," and it's written by
>> Mildred Ames.
>>
>> Basically it's about this girl who sees a double of herself one day, and
>> goes on to discover that she's actually a clone of a brilliant scientist
>> whose parents died in the Holocaust. Everything goes great, until the
>> clones hit adolescence. Then they start to diversify. I think the idea
>> wasn't so much nature-vs-nurture -- although that was a secondary aspect
>> -- as that the technology wasn't perfected yet, and the onset of
>> adolescence caused mutation away from the original pattern.
>
>Now I'm *very* confused. I read a story with - I believe - that exact name, and
>the Holocaust definitely was involved as well. But it was not a YA novel, it
>was a short story in some Oxford sci-fi collection (can't remember the author
>of the story, the book wasn't mine). Tell me, do you remember if there was any
>episode in the book in which the girl "feels" the same things her mother does
>(namely the Holocaust memories)?
>
where she "remembers" being a little girl, and the woman who looked after
her after her parents died in the concentration camp. (I think she was
actually in Auschwitz.)
It might be that the author wrote the short story, then re-wrote it as a
YA novel. I remember that it reminded me of "I Am the Cheese," especially
the ending.
Rimrunner
the cheese stands alone
usher
espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
> Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
>lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old
>fashioned way still works best.
That, and it's likely to be more "fun".
usher
Rambling Old Jedi Engineer, RASSM rascal & Scoundrel
official RASSM chosen smartass & AFC member
The Stormtrooper doesn't hit his head.
Awarded the HNTC Award for Valor during the Debacle at Hallifax
Survived Sith War I (1996) with my ship intact.
I disapprove of what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire
Use soft words and hard arguments. - English proverb
The only dumb question is the unasked one.
"It isn't even wrong." - Wolfgang Pauli
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Chris Jensen
usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
: espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
: > Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
: >lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old
: >fashioned way still works best.
: That, and it's likely to be more "fun".
definitely, but I'm not sure that copulating with sheep will allow you to
mass produce humans.
:P (smiley for the sarcasm impaired)
usher
cje...@potter.ieee.uh.edu (Chris Jensen) wrote:
>usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
>: espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
>
>: > Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
>: >lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old
>: >fashioned way still works best.
>: That, and it's likely to be more "fun".
>definitely, but I'm not sure that copulating with sheep will allow
>you to mass produce humans.
Hey! I'm the ORSa here. Cuttin' in on my territory?
Well at least you did a good job of it.
JamesWKing
The Friday, March 8 USA Today had some Clone News updates. Animal
cloning expert Marie DiBerardino of Allegheny University of the Health
Sciences in Philadelphia said that attempts to clone an adult person could
lead to the birth of abnormal children. One problem she noted with cloning
of adult people is that scientists must use cells that had been living in
that person for at least two decades because chemical and environmental
radiation exposures could alter one's DNA.
Earlier in the week, President Clinton spoke out against all cloning
in general.
-- James King
Inigo
JamesWKing (james...@aol.com) wrote:
: The Friday, March 8 USA Today had some Clone News updates. Animal
: cloning expert Marie DiBerardino of Allegheny University of the Health
: Sciences in Philadelphia said that attempts to clone an adult person could
: lead to the birth of abnormal children. One problem she noted with cloning
: of adult people is that scientists must use cells that had been living in
: that person for at least two decades because chemical and environmental
: radiation exposures could alter one's DNA.
Two decades? I'm not sure what the average life expectancy of a human
cell is, but I doubt it's 20 years. Red blood cells die so quickly that
the body makes something like 2 million every second or some rediculously
high number. I suppose they could use neurons, though.
Inigo
Halina
Chris Jensen wrote:
>
> usher <y...@somewhere.intime> wrote:
> : espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
>
> : > Just to put your mind at rest, it took 400 tries to get one
> : >lamb. This is not a good way to mass produce humans...the old
> : >fashioned way still works best.
>
> : That, and it's likely to be more "fun".
>
> definitely, but I'm not sure that copulating with sheep will allow you to
> mass produce humans.
>
Worse, it could lead to the mass production of Ewoks.
--
Halina signing out...
>o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o<
|-o-| <-o-> |-o-| |-o-| <-o-> |-o-| |-o-| <-o-> |-o-|
>o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o<
"It's against my programming to impersonate a deity. You'll need
Gonk for that." - C3PO in "Return of the Jedi - Special Edition"
"What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken!!??" - Lord Dark Helmet
JamesWKing
President Bill Clinton has come out against cloning experimentation.
During hearings on cloning experimentation before Congress last week,
the English sheep cloner said cloning experimentation is not intended for
humans per se. (The United States has not outlawed cloning -- yet,
anyway.)
One Congressman (and if memory serves, a more libertarian-minded
Republican at that) said he welcomed cloning because as far as its
prospects for the future, cloning was inevitable -- for humans, too!
-- James King
JamesWKing
-- Excerpts from the Tuesday, March 18, 1997 USA Today Editorial Page
Debate on Human Cloning Research
USA Today's View:
CONTROL, YES; BUT DON'T BAN HUMAN CLONING.
Stopping human cloning research is simply unrealistic. Whatever happens,
Science marches on.
Scientists around the world are racing toward the moment when human
cloning is not just thinkable, but totally do-able. Despite new calls from
alarmed federal lawmakers, there is no way to stop the science....
In the early 1970s, breakthroughs in genetic engineering sparked
similar uneasiness among lawmakers, consumers and scientists. They worried
that the newly developed ability to move genetic material between species
might produce mutant lifeforms and deadly new pathogens.
None of those fears came true, and today we enjoy the benefits of
genetic engineering in everything from tomatoes to insulin. That's because
instead of overreacting, lawmakers and the scientific establishment
created a federal advisory panel to establish biosafety standards and
review applications for new experiments. The public was reassured and
Science marched on....
_______________________________________
OPPOSING VIEW by Republican U.S. Senator Christopher "Kit" Bond of
Missouri, member of the Senate Appropriations Committee:
OUTLAW HUMAN CLONING.
Cloning's ethical implications are staggering. Human beings are unique and
created by God.
The cloning of Dolly, the now famous sheep, by Scottish scientist Ian
Wilmut has generated both fascination and fear. Americans are wondering
whether another science fiction story is about to come true.
I would suggest that in this case our technological capacity may be
outrunning our moral sense.... Our (bi-partisan) bill affects only human
cloning research that would *replicate* a human being. Plant and animal
research would continue, and the National Institutes of Health would
continue work on its genome mapping project, which offers great promise
for development of new approaches to diagnose, treat and prevent
disease....
The United States should show moral leadership and follow the example
of several other countries by banning and criminalizing all human cloning
research, whether public or private....
_________________________________________
And where do *YOU* stand on human cloning research? And where would
you stand on the issue *IF* you were a citizen living in the Old Republic
of Star Wars' Faraway Galaxy just a decade before the onset of the Clone
Wars? Is your real-world stance on the human cloning research issue the
same as your hypothetical fictional one? If so, why? If not, how do you
reconcile the difference in your stances?
-- James King
(Available for Cloning Research : )
Hoova Fatt
George Lucas says that Boba Fett is dead.
Feh. What does George Lucas know about Star Wars anyways....
That's a joke, folks.
I have a question about all this arguing over "canon" and what is and what
isn't. Personally, I don't much give a wampa's @$$ what is or what is not
canon in the Star Wars evidence. I read what I enjoy regardless of whether
George Lucas has given it the big thumbs up.
I don't even understand what all the arguing is over. Does it really have
to be canon to be enjoyed? Maybe it's my personal background but with what
I read, watch, and enjoy, there are usually different "universes" of it in
different mediums.
For example, I enjoy Transformers. You know, "More than meets the eye!"
Well, there was a cartoon series, and there was a comic series, both based
on the toy line. Well guess what? They didn't interact. They didn't mesh.
Things happened in the comic that didn't happen in the cartoon. And
vice-versa. I sure don't see people screaming at each other on
alt.toys.transformers about either the comic or cartoon "not being canon",
or people screaming over which is better. Why is it done here? Why can't
you guys just relax a little, ya know?
The Batman films surely arent the "canon" of Batman, that would be the
comic books. But no one gets in a hissy that the movies aren't like the
comics. We understand that it's different. We consider it in the context
of its own "universe".
I happen to like a lot of the things that happen in the "non-canon" Star
Wars universe. And yet there are people here who will flame the hell out
of me if I ever say those events happened. Well, face facts, folks, there
are a NUMBER of actual "Star Wars universes", whch do not interact with
each other. There's the Bantam novels, there's the Marvel Comics, there's
the Dark Horse comics, which borrow from about every other "universe" yet
still don't jive fully with any one of them. There's just different
versions of it all. Why is this not acceptable?? I sure don't get worried
about it.
I like the Star Wars novels. I don't lose sleep at night wondering if
George Lucas would a-ok every little detail in the books. I JUST DON'T
CARE. All that matters is I *ENJOY* the material, and that is my "Star
Wars Universe" of preference.
Those of you who go strictly by the movies, well, that's fine for you. In
YOUR universe of choice, the only thing you allow is the movies. If you
want to do that, that's fine. Those of you who like the novels allow the
movies and the added details from the novels into "your universe". Those
of you who liked the Marvel Comics allow the movies and the Marvel Comics
into "your universe". To say that stuff that has seen print "never
happened" is not just childish but naive. There's not just one Star Wars
universe. Too many cooks in the kitchen for that to happen. Would you have
rather Lucasfilm allowed no merchandise such as novels and comics to even
exist? I sure hope not.
Don't talk to me about what is and what isn't canon, because I don't care.
I care about what I enjoy in a story. Those of you who get hung up on all
the details, well, I wish you luck with your ulcers in the future.
I just had to get this off my chest.
Canon-schmanon,
--HooveR
(Ulcer-free)
P.S.: Any civilized people who would like to respond to this, your
thoughts are appreciated.
Beej
I'm giving you points just because you used the word 'hissy'. I don't
care about the books, personally. But, if you like them that's your
perogative. I won't flame you for liking other peoples spin on GL's
stories. No one really should. If anything it should make for some
good banter.
Anthony Siino
I agree completely with your point of view. Those that like to argue
about trivial points in the SW universe probably have nothing better to do
in their lives. I've seen the films many more times than I could count
and I've read almost every novel out there. I've enjoyed every single
novel. Some more than others but I can easily see past the weak parts and
enjoy the rest of the novel.
Anthony
Rimrunner
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.97041...@Bayou.UH.EDU>,
Hoova Fatt <jho...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
>
>P.S.: Any civilized people who would like to respond to this, your
>thoughts are appreciated.
Hey! Who're you callin' civilized??
Oh. Ahem.
Actually, I agree. I've got enough stress in my life without arguing about
whether Kevin Anderson (gods help us) has executive power over what
happens in the Star Wars universe. Who cares?
Oh, you get extra points for spelling "canon" correctly. I *try* not to be
pedantic, but when people insist on adding that extra n it's really
irritating, like socks that won't stay pulled up.
Rimrunner
garters are *not* an option
--
Murder of Crows official web site: http://www.nwlink.com/~noah/
Pick a newsgroup and save it: http://www.boutell.com/boutell/usenet.html
***Official RASSM Jedi Master***
Star Wars FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4147/
--
"NEVER tell a gay man something sucks!" -- Burt
--
I do not like commercial e-mail. If you send me commercial e-mail, you can
safely assume that I won't be doing business with you.
--
John Davidge
I really objest to being called civilized, but I will respond
nevertheless...
The one real problem here is that you are dealing with people, and people
have opinions, and generally don't like other people who's opinions don't
gel with their own. Sad but true.
Basically what I am saying is that although I am inclined to agree with
you, being a more or less happy-go-lucky type myself, expect a lot of grief
from others out there. Then again, if everyone agreed life in general and
newsgroups in particular would be SIZE boring.
Ciao!
-D-
--
"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer"
usher
rim...@halcyon.com (Rimrunner) wrote:
>irritating, like socks that won't stay pulled up.
>garters are *not* an option
Not on socks they aren't. I prefer those stay-up thigh-highs myself.
NO. Not /on/ myself, just a a presonal preference of what I like to
see on a shapely leg. Not that mine are misshapen mind you; they're
not.
I'll just shut up now.
<All of RASSM cheers>
Figures.
usher
Rambling Old Jedi Engineer, RASSM rascal & Scoundrel, The Exalted One
official RASSM chosen smartass & AFC member
The Stormtrooper doesn't hit his head.
Awarded the HNTC Award for Valor during the Debacle at Hallifax
Survived Sith War I (1996) with my ship intact to have it sadly destroyed in Sith War II.
I disapprove of what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire
Use soft words and hard arguments. - English proverb
You are never too old, just more easily distracted by other things.
Artist & Author of stuff. Down with the CDA. Up with Prop. 309.
<*> http://members.tripod.com/~Melosh/swlinks.html, leia.html, presence.html
Ted 3000
Let's call canon "Lucas Kosher"
)))Subvert(((
Ted 30...@AOL.com
James Trory
Nothing is canon besides the films, novelisations, radio dramas and
Shadows of the Empire *BECAUSE* GL says that he can contradict
anything but these.
Which means that whether people like it or not, GL is the canon and he
fires the canon balls, and what he says goes. So everything else is
just fun reading etc. There's nothing more to say...
--
Sith Warrior Trory
The Official RASSM Homepage
http://www.trory.demon.co.uk/rassm/index.htm
GSV Ethics Gradient
[skein broadcast, Mclear, received @ Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:40:13 -0500+]
xHoova Fatt (Hoova Fatt <jho...@Bayou.UH.EDU>)
oGSV Ethics Gradient (Doug Wilson)
>P.S.: Any civilized people who would like to respond to this, your
>thoughts are appreciated.
>
"Since our problems have been our own creation
They also can be overcome."
-- George Harrison (Cloud Nine)
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Bas-Jan Walewijk
Hoova Fatt wrote:
>Don't talk to me about what is and what isn't canon, because I don't care.
>I care about what I enjoy in a story. Those of you who get hung up on all
>the details, well, I wish you luck with your ulcers in the future.
>
>I just had to get this off my chest.
With you here. Though it must be said, I've joined the fray a few times,
mainly because one of two things has happened: 1) someone has argued that
Lucas is above criticism, and I do *not* like being told what to think; 2)
someone is needlessly insulting an author.
>P.S.: Any civilized people who would like to respond to this, your
>thoughts are appreciated.
Civilized? Well, maybe not, but I'll try to be civil. Agreed? ;-)
(...though most "canon" posts *do* seem to originate from the extreme wing of
the "thenovelsarecrapandtheprequelswillblowthemallaway" camp...)
Bas-Jan
--
My opinions are my employer's, not my own.
--
"Context is strawberries."
--
An Official RASSM Cool Person and Jedi Master.
Beware imitations.
--
<TIE Fighter>ouse <Squished TIE Fighter>ation
Jedi Al
In article <86139760...@trory.demon.co.uk>, che...@trory.demon.co.uk
(James Trory) writes:
>Nothing is canon besides the films, novelisations, radio dramas and
>Shadows of the Empire *BECAUSE* GL says that he can contradict
>anything but these.
But James, Uncle George HAS contradicted the novelizations with his
movies!
The debate rages on...
*|*
*|*
*|*
*|*
/ \
/ \
/ __( )__\
\ /
/ \ / \
/ / \ \
/ / \ \
/___/______\___\
***JEDI AL***
MoonBase
James Trory wrote:
>
> Nothing is canon besides the films, novelisations, radio dramas and
> Shadows of the Empire *BECAUSE* GL says that he can contradict
> anything but these.
>
> fires the canon balls, and what he says goes. So everything else is
> just fun reading etc. There's nothing more to say...
>
> --
> Sith Warrior Trory
>
> The Official RASSM Homepage
> http://www.trory.demon.co.uk/rassm/index.htm
I like to look at it this way:
The books are "stories" about our heroes. They may be true, or not,
just like George Washington and the cherry tree. He was real, the
cherry-tree incident... Well, we'll never know, will we?
Carrie