Vader Fell In A Molten Pit?????
Shawn1059
While scanning my local Wal-Mart in hopes of finding a Speederbike w/Luke,
I noticed and started reading a book as I was walking by the childrens
booksection called "The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook". It's by
Scholastic (sp) and basically explains who the characters are, the basic
story, etc. Nothing new until I see a section explaining Darth Vader's
helmet. The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
possible hint of what to expect in the prequels? On a side
note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
created in "Batman"?
Have Fun,
Shawn Stidham
"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" - Arthur Carlson/WKRP
Gregg T. Allinson
Shawn1059 (shaw...@aol.com) wrote:
: The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
: life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
: epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
: to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
: thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
: anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
: possible hint of what to expect in the prequels?
The Lava Pit comes from the ROTJ novelisation. The climax of the
Lightsaber duel saw Anakin falling into the Lava Pit. I'm sure this
duel will be depicted in the prequels.
--
Au Bon Pain!,
Gregg "Dave" Allinson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Michelle Schick
Shawn1059 wrote:
> <SNIP>
On a side
> note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> created in "Batman"?
>
> Have Fun,
> Shawn Stidham
>
> "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" - Arthur Carlson/WKRP
I believe that this story of how Darth Vader came to be has been around
LONG before "Batman". I remember knowing this sometime after ROTJ, but
I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
movie or the novelization) itself?
Shelley
Gregg T. Allinson
Michelle Schick (schi...@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu) wrote:
: Shawn1059 wrote:
: > <SNIP>
: On a side
: > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
: > created in "Batman"?
: I believe that this story of how Darth Vader came to be has been around
: LONG before "Batman".
I believe that "Batman" has been around LONG before "Star Wars". The
Joker's origin, ie that he fell into a vat of acid, has been around since
the 1950s at least. And I gotta admit that falling into lava, becoming
disfigured, and becoming totally evil is similiar to falling into acid,
becoming disfigured, and becoming totally evil. Not a direct rip-off,
mind you, but there is a certain similarity.
: I remember knowing this sometime after ROTJ, but
: I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
: movie or the novelization) itself?
I think Lucas mentioned it in interviews prior to ROTJ, but I know for
sure the account appears in the ROTJ novelization.
BrentLynch
This is just about the only thing Lucas has stuck to over the
past twenty years as being Vader's origin. It's detailed quite
a bit more in STAR WARS SCREEN ENTERTAINMENT by
LucasArts, but just how "canon" its biography segments are
is unknown.
Ain't it all just swank?
Johnny Bravo
Michelle Schick wrote:
>
> Shawn1059 wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> On a side
> > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> > created in "Batman"?
> >
> > Shawn Stidham
> >
> > "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" - Arthur Carlson/WKRP
>
> I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
> movie or the novelization) itself?
>
I actually remember reading about the duel between Obi-Wan and Darth
around the time Empire came out. Even back then they were saying that
Darth fell into a pit of lava and clawed his way out. BEFORE the Jedi
novelization. It may have been in a TIME article.
Eplicon
> While scanning my local Wal-Mart in hopes of finding a Speederbike
> w/Luke, I noticed and started reading a book as I was walking by the
> childrens booksection called "The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook".
> It's by Scholastic (sp) and basically explains who the characters are,
the
> basic story, etc. Nothing new until I see a section explaining Darth
Vader's
> helmet. The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
> life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
> epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi.
While the ROTJ novelization is the first place that "officially" mentions
Vader's origin and the need to wear the life support system, it's been
known for a long time. Scholastic, incidentally, also published
"Dynamite" magazine (anyone remember that?). In their first article
covering SW (the one with Shaun Cassidy and Chewbacca on the cover)
details (via Lucas himself) that Vader felt into a molten pit and gets
fried. It also discussed what the sequels/prequels might contain. This
was long before TESB and ROTJ were put forth into production, so it was
interesting to read about it then and now, in retrospect.
> I've always heard that Vader was forced to wear the helmet after almost
> being killed by Kenobi but I always thought it was due to injuries
inflicted
> during a lightsaber duel. Has anyone else ever heard that theory
before or
> would this be the first possible hint of what to expect in the
prequels?
This would happen in Episode III. My thought is that Anakin's descent
into Jedihood/darkness parallels Luke's, but in the opposite manner. I
picture this scene: During the heat of the light saber battle, Ben severs
Anakin's sword hand. This causes him to not only lose the saber, but to
fall into the volcanic pit (a not too different thing that happens to Luke
in TESB, but instead of falling into the pit, he falls in an abyss).
Whereas Luke emerges stronger, and step close to being a Jedi Knight,
Anakin has the opposite happen. That's just my guess.
---
/-Jack
epl...@aol.com
ra...@genie.com
ra...@compuserve.com
Edward Mooney, Jr.
Michelle Schick wrote:
>
> Shawn1059 wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> On a side
> > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> > created in "Batman"?
> >
> > Have Fun,
> > Shawn Stidham
> >
> > "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!" - Arthur Carlson/WKRP
>
> I believe that this story of how Darth Vader came to be has been around
> LONG before "Batman". I remember knowing this sometime after ROTJ, but
> I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
> movie or the novelization) itself?
>
> Shelley
It was in the novelization. Maybe Darth is the Joker in disguise?
John Gorenfeld
Lucas said in an interview with "Rolling Stone" in 1977 that Vader killed
Luke's father but got knocked into a pit of molten lava. The interview's
in a book of Rolling Stone film articles that came out recently.
John
fu...@ccp.spc.uchicago.edu
Duggy Forever <eng...@jcu.edu.au> said:
>
> On 28 Feb 1997, Shawn1059 wrote:
>
> > While scanning my local Wal-Mart in hopes of finding a Speederbike w/Luke,
> > I noticed and started reading a book as I was walking by the childrens
> > booksection called "The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook". It's by
> > Scholastic (sp) and basically explains who the characters are, the basic
> > story, etc. Nothing new until I see a section explaining Darth Vader's
> > helmet. The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
> > life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
> > epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
> > to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
> > thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
> > anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
> > possible hint of what to expect in the prequels? On a side
> > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> > created in "Batman"?
>
> Well, firstly it originally appeared in the ROTJ novel.
> Secondly... ignoring the movie there is no real proof that the Joker was
> created by the fall into the chemicals.
Furthermore, it was always stated in the Journal of the Whills(TM) that
Annakin feel into a lava pit during his duel with Obi-Wan...and I speak as
someone who was a HUGE SW fan, and saw all 3 original movies on the big
screen, and was old enough to deal with all these intricacies at the time.
(God, how I wish I still had my collection of SW cards, books, comics,
the oversized comics, my clippings of SW holdover movie-theatre announcements,
etc)...
Regardless, JL always knew that Annakin would be burned by lava and would
need the cybernetic enhancements. I just wish that, at the time, I had
the money to buy the published JotW back in '77.
--
fugue
"The police used to watch over the people.
Now they're watching the people."
Dark Lord Karno Dal
On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, the one and only Duggy wrote:
> Well, firstly....<snip>
I'm pretty firstly myself. I think I'll run over to the "Real
RASSMer's Drink" thread and grab me something. ;)
> Secondly... ignoring the movie there is no real proof that the Joker was
> created by the fall into the chemicals.
"The Killing Joke" actually proved this rather well (on top of being a
first-rate read).
> A criminal (or criminals) had been operating in Gotham... their leader
> wearing a red hood... During a chase with The Bat, Red Hood fell into
> chemicals... and emerged as The Joker we know and love.
Kind of a cheezy origin for such a classic character.
May the Darkness be with you....
Dark Lord Karno Dal
si...@lords.com
I used to go by "Chris P. Layne," but that name no longer has any meaning
for me, at least while I'm on RASSM.
Bas-Jan Walewijk
Gregg T. Allinson <ros...@wwa.com> wrote in article
<5f77ou$4bn$1...@kirin.wwa.com>...
> I believe that "Batman" has been around LONG before "Star Wars". The
> Joker's origin, ie that he fell into a vat of acid, has been around since
> the 1950s at least. And I gotta admit that falling into lava, becoming
> disfigured, and becoming totally evil is similiar to falling into acid,
> becoming disfigured, and becoming totally evil. Not a direct rip-off,
> mind you, but there is a certain similarity.
In that case, think "Phantom of the Opera".
Bas-Jan
--
"Context is strawberries."
--
"Yesterday, some poor fellow was arrested in the rue Le Peletier -
on leaving the exhibition, he had begun biting the passers-by."
- review of the second Impressionist exhibition
--
Another genuine Official RASSM Cool Person. Beware imitations.
rk...@acsu.buffalo.edu
Personally I always thought that the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan
took place in an industrial setting similar to the end of Terminator 2 and
that Anakin fell into a vat of molten steel like the T-1000. I don't think
he fell into lava. Why would they fight next to a volcano anyway?
Richard Kim <rk...@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Don Glass
The Lava Pit duel is first mentioned in a 1977 Rolling Stone interview
with George Lucas. He talks about the genesis of his ideas for Star Wars
and you'll be surprised at how many of those ideas showed up in ESB and
ROTJ. For example, one of the possible endings to SW had wookies flying
fighters to destroy the Death Star in defense of the wookie home planet.
This idea was miniturized into the form of Ewoks defending their planet
in ROTJ.
The article is a must read for any SW enthusiasist.
Richard
I receive email at thx...@juno.com
Duggy Forever
On 28 Feb 1997, Shawn1059 wrote:
> While scanning my local Wal-Mart in hopes of finding a Speederbike w/Luke,
> I noticed and started reading a book as I was walking by the childrens
> booksection called "The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook". It's by
> Scholastic (sp) and basically explains who the characters are, the basic
> story, etc. Nothing new until I see a section explaining Darth Vader's
> helmet. The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
> life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
> epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
> to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
> thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
> anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
> possible hint of what to expect in the prequels? On a side
> note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> created in "Batman"?
Well, firstly it originally appeared in the ROTJ novel.
Secondly... ignoring the movie there is no real proof that the Joker was
created by the fall into the chemicals.
A criminal (or criminals) had been operating in Gotham... their leader
wearing a red hood... During a chase with The Bat, Red Hood fell into
chemicals... and emerged as The Joker we know and love.
---
- Dug.
---
JamesWKing
The first time I read about Anakin's falling into the lava pit
after/during a lightsaber duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi was in an August '77
Rolling Stone interview with George Lucas.
-- James King
tma...@wsunix.wsu.edu
ros...@wwa.com (Gregg T. Allinson) wrote:
>Shawn1059 (shaw...@aol.com) wrote:
>: The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
>: life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
>: epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
>: to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
>: thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
>: anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
>: possible hint of what to expect in the prequels?
>The Lava Pit comes from the ROTJ novelisation. The climax of the
>Lightsaber duel saw Anakin falling into the Lava Pit. I'm sure this
>duel will be depicted in the prequels.
<*on* idiotic question mode>:
How does someone fall into a lava pit without getting crisped
instantly?
<*off* idiotic quesion mode>
Eplicon
> I don't think he fell into lava. Why would they fight next to
> a volcano anyway?
I figure one scenario: Ben and Anakin actually begin a part of their duel
by a dogfight chase through space. Ben manages to shoot down Anakin, but
Anakin (ever the great pilot he is) manages to land on a nearby planet,
which is volcanic in nature or has a volcanic pit in it. Ben follows in
hot pursuit, the two duke it out with their sabers, and the rest is
history. Or maybe not...!
Hellspawn
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:54:40 GMT, fu...@ccp.spc.uchicago.edu wrote:
>Duggy Forever <eng...@jcu.edu.au> said:
>
>>
>> On 28 Feb 1997, Shawn1059 wrote:
>>
>> > While scanning my local Wal-Mart in hopes of finding a Speederbike w/Luke,
>> > I noticed and started reading a book as I was walking by the childrens
>> > booksection called "The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook". It's by
>> > Scholastic (sp) and basically explains who the characters are, the basic
>> > story, etc. Nothing new until I see a section explaining Darth Vader's
>> > helmet. The caption explains that Vader was forced to wear a
>> > life-preserving helmet and suit after falling into a molten pit during a
>> > epic battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've always heard that Vader was forced
>> > to wear the helmet after almost being killed by Kenobi but I always
>> > thought it was due to injuries inflicted during a lightsaber duel. Has
>> > anyone else ever heard that theory before or would this be the first
>> > possible hint of what to expect in the prequels? On a side
>> > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
>> > created in "Batman"?
>>
>> Well, firstly it originally appeared in the ROTJ novel.
>> Secondly... ignoring the movie there is no real proof that the Joker was
>> created by the fall into the chemicals.
>
>
>Furthermore, it was always stated in the Journal of the Whills(TM) that
>Annakin feel into a lava pit during his duel with Obi-Wan...and I speak as
>someone who was a HUGE SW fan, and saw all 3 original movies on the big
>screen, and was old enough to deal with all these intricacies at the time.
>(God, how I wish I still had my collection of SW cards, books, comics,
>the oversized comics, my clippings of SW holdover movie-theatre announcements,
>etc)...
>
>Regardless, JL always knew that Annakin would be burned by lava and would
>need the cybernetic enhancements. I just wish that, at the time, I had
>the money to buy the published JotW back in '77.
>
>
>--
> fugue
> "The police used to watch over the people.
> Now they're watching the people."
A published journal of the whills???!!! Is he on crack or did I
SERIOUSLY miss something 20 years ago? (I would bet on the choice
involving crack...)
Hellspawn
Gregg T. Allinson
tma...@wsunix.wsu.edu wrote:
: ros...@wwa.com (Gregg T. Allinson) wrote:
: <*on* idiotic question mode>:
: How does someone fall into a lava pit without getting crisped
: instantly?
: <*off* idiotic quesion mode>
It's not really all that idiotic of a question...
I'd assume that his survival had something to to with the Dark Side of the
Force. Perhaps there was so much hate in Anakin, that he was able to
survive through sheer Force of will (pun intended:)).
If you're interested, John Flinn's "Fall of the Republic" Fanfic provides
the explaination that Anakin was killed in the Lava Pit, but revived and
rebuilt by weird little Dark Side Dwaves that Palpatine created. I know
it sounds weird, but I kinda liked it.
Paul Snowball
In article <331763...@qnet.com>, "Edward Mooney, Jr."
<moon...@qnet.com> writes
>Michelle Schick wrote:
>>
>> I believe that this story of how Darth Vader came to be has been around
>> LONG before "Batman". I remember knowing this sometime after ROTJ, but
>> I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
>> movie or the novelization) itself?
>>
>> Shelley
>
>
>It was in the novelization. Maybe Darth is the Joker in disguise?
I thought that was Luke?
--
Snowy
Rich Handley
The odd thing is that there never was a book entitled Journal of the
Whills, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Journal of the
Whills was a fictional book referred to in the novelization of ANH.
It's never been written aside from that.
The immortal fu...@ccp.spc.uchicago.edu wrote:
>Furthermore, it was always stated in the Journal of the Whills(TM) that
>Annakin feel into a lava pit during his duel with Obi-Wan...and I speak as
>someone who was a HUGE SW fan, and saw all 3 original movies on the big
>screen, and was old enough to deal with all these intricacies at the time.
>(God, how I wish I still had my collection of SW cards, books, comics,
>the oversized comics, my clippings of SW holdover movie-theatre announcements,
>etc)...
>Regardless, JL always knew that Annakin would be burned by lava and would
>need the cybernetic enhancements. I just wish that, at the time, I had
>the money to buy the published JotW back in '77.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@unix.asb.com)
Author of "Star Wars: Crimson Bounty"
(The Star Wars Adventure Journal,August '97)
Visit "The Exhaustive Guide to Star Wars Comics"
at http://www.asb.com/usr/cardsafe/intro.htm!
rosencrantz
I HIGHLY doubt this interview's authenticity. It's probably something
that Lucas made sure was doctored up just within the last few years, and
paid RS big $$$ to release after the fact. Notice that all the people who
remember reading it back in '77 are all the same people who claim to
remember the Biggs footage being in the original release, too - can't be
trusted. Lucas Tells Little Fibs, after all.
(sarcasm mode off)
Curiouser and curiouser...
"Heads."
Rosencrantz
"I grow old, I grow old... I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled."
- T. S. Eliot, The Lovesong of
J. Alfred Prufrock
Don Glass
I have a copy of the original Rolling Stone article. Vader fell into a
pit is in there. Go to the library and check it out.
Richard
email address: thx...@juno.com
You Local Bloke From MRC
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Dark Lord Karno Dal wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, the one and only Duggy wrote:
> > Secondly... ignoring the movie there is no real proof that the Joker was
> > created by the fall into the chemicals.
> "The Killing Joke" actually proved this rather well (on top of being a
> first-rate read).
1) No, it doesn't. The Batman editor (was it Dennis O'Neil... or did he
come later?) said that that was NOT necessarily The Joker's Origin.
2) The Joker claims IN THE COMIC that HE ISN'T sure what really happen,
and that the flashbacks may be false memories.
3) The Killing Joke occured before the "Zero Hour" comics, and as such
does NOT apply to current comics.
> > A criminal (or criminals) had been operating in Gotham... their leader
> > wearing a red hood... During a chase with The Bat, Red Hood fell into
> > chemicals... and emerged as The Joker we know and love.
> Kind of a cheezy origin for such a classic character.
Yeah, but that was his origin BEFORE he became "such a classic character"
You Local Bloke From MRC
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Michelle Schick wrote:
> Shawn1059 wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> On a side
> > note.....doesn't that sound a little too similiar to how The Joker was
> > created in "Batman"?
> I believe that this story of how Darth Vader came to be has been around
> LONG before "Batman". I remember knowing this sometime after ROTJ, but
> I don't remember where I first heard/read it. Perhaps from ROTJ (the
> movie or the novelization) itself?
Ummm, Batman and The Joker have been around nearly 60 years...
I think they pre-date STAR WARS a little...
JamesWKing
>> On 28 Feb 1997, John Gorenfeld wrote:
>>
>> > Lucas said in an interview with "Rolling Stone" in 1977 that
>> Vader killed Luke's father but got knocked into a pit of molten lava.
>> The interview's in a book of Rolling Stone film articles that came
>> out recently.
Rosencrantz (n944...@statler.cc.wwu.edu): "I HIGHLY doubt this
interview's authenticity. It's probably something that Lucas made sure was
doctored up just within the last few years, and paid RS big $$$ to release
after the fact."
Baloney! Lucas himself was indeed interviewed by Rolling Stone in '77
and it was a rather lengthy interview at that. That August '77 issue of
Rolling Stone was the first interview I'd read in which he not only
mentioned his master vision of a "trilogy of trilogies" but also
entertained the idea of a fourth trilogy which he termed as "ephemeral"
because if made, it would be more of a spiritual Jedi quest.
Rosencrantz: "Notice that all the people who remember reading it back in
'77 are all the same people who claim to remember the Biggs footage being
in the original release, too - can't be trusted. Lucas Tells Little Fibs,
after all."
The Rolling Stone interview is NO "fib." And it IS possible that
anybody who saw a test screening of the first Star Wars movie would have
seen things that were later cut from the movie. Indeed, there were some
sound effects restored to the Special Edition of Star Wars that I hadn't
heard since its original '77 run (namely the worm creature's chittering
noise, the Stormtrooper's "Open" and "Close the blast door" dialogue and
the revving sound made by the Rebel Fighters' wings X-ing open).
-- James King
JamesWKing
>> On 28 Feb 1997, John Gorenfeld wrote:
>>
>> > Lucas said in an interview with "Rolling Stone" in 1977 that
>> Vader killed Luke's father but got knocked into a pit of molten
>> lava. The interview's in a book of Rolling Stone film articles that
>> came out recently.
I don't recall Lucas mentioning in the August '77 Rolling Stone
interview anything about Luke's father being killed by Darth Vader at the
lava pit, but Lucas did mention a duel between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader.
-- James King
rosencrantz
On 2 Mar 1997, JamesWKing wrote:
> Rosencrantz (n944...@statler.cc.wwu.edu): "I HIGHLY doubt this
> interview's authenticity. It's probably something that Lucas made sure was
> doctored up just within the last few years, and paid RS big $$$ to release
> after the fact."
>
> The Rolling Stone interview is NO "fib."
Perhaps you did not notice my "sarcasm mode off" note at the end of that
message? I was poking fun at all of the people who think that Lucas is a
big liar and try to take down any evidence to the contrary.
Quite honestly, I BELIEVE most of what Lucas tells us. I indeed believe
that Vader was always Luke's father; I believe that Luke and Leia were
always siblings (if not always twins, necessarily); I believe that Jabba
was never intended to be human; and I believe he planned sequels (and
prequels, actually).
And no, Greedo firing first, the ESB shuttle scene, and the new Sy
snootles footage don't ruin the movies for me, either.
rosencrantz
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Don Glass wrote:
> The Lava Pit duel is first mentioned in a 1977 Rolling Stone interview
> with George Lucas. He talks about the genesis of his ideas for Star Wars
> and you'll be surprised at how many of those ideas showed up in ESB and
> ROTJ.
Really? Like, maybe he had the whole story in one script, and he just
divided it into three?
For example, one of the possible endings to SW had wookies flying
> fighters to destroy the Death Star in defense of the wookie home planet.
Having read the first draft (check out the Jedi Bendu Home Page if you're
interested) what's interesting about that is that their home planet is
Yavin, not Kashyyk.
Jeremy Kwiecien
rosencrantz wrote:
>
> Having read the first draft (check out the Jedi Bendu Home Page if you're
could you post and email me the URL?
(Normally I'd just ask for the post, but RASSM is getting too busy, and
I miss threads I'd otherwise like to follow up on)
> interested) what's interesting about that is that their home planet is
> Yavin, not Kashyyk.
>
> Curiouser and curiouser...
>
> "Heads."
>
> Rosencrantz
>
> "I grow old, I grow old... I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled."
> - T. S. Eliot, The Lovesong of
> J. Alfred Prufrock
--
Jer
"There are, I have discovered, two kinds of people in this
world, those who long to be understood and those who long
to be misunderstood. It is the irony of life that neither
is gratified." -- Carl Van Vechten.
Andrew Shearwood
The non-existent rosencrantz <n944...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> did not write:
>Perhaps you did not notice my "sarcasm mode off" note at the end of that
>message? I was poking fun at all of the people who think that Lucas is a
>big liar and try to take down any evidence to the contrary.
Don't make fun of me! :-) Really though, there is evidence to the
contrary, which I have outlined in numerous messages on this ng.
I'm not this way because I like bagging Lucas (even though sometimes
I do), it's just the conclusion I've come to through my reading and
observations.
>Quite honestly, I BELIEVE most of what Lucas tells us. I indeed believe
>that Vader was always Luke's father; I believe that Luke and Leia were
>always siblings (if not always twins, necessarily); I believe that Jabba
>was never intended to be human; and I believe he planned sequels (and
>prequels, actually).
Check out this part of the RS77 interview then:
"RS: What's the story?
George: It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are
young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader
have a confrontation, just like they have in Star Wars, and Ben almost
kills Vader.
As a matter of fact, he falls into a volcanic pit and gets fried and is
one destroyed being. That's why he has to wear the suit with a mask,
because it's a breathing mask. It's like a walking iron lung.
His face is all horrible inside. I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader
where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said, no, no, it
would destroy the mystique of the whole thing."
What do you say to that? Lucas says Vader, Obi and Luke's father were
all different people in this interview. And you can't use the "different
point of view" crap here, because it isn't Obi-Wan talking.
>And no, Greedo firing first, the ESB shuttle scene, and the new Sy
>snootles footage don't ruin the movies for me, either.
I have no idea whether or not they will ruin the movie for me yet, as
I haven't seen them (Australia ya see). But I definitely don't consider
them canon.
>Curiouser and curiouser...
Indeed.
- Andrew.
. A .
====d8==Y8Y==8b==============================================================
888 8 888 Andrew Shearwood
888b.d8b.d888 and...@comtel.hna.com.au
===`88888888888'=============================================================
`"Y888P"'
Shefali Asthana
Bas-Jan Walewijk wrote:
> Gregg T. Allinson <ros...@wwa.com> wrote in article
> <5f77ou$4bn$1...@kirin.wwa.com>...
> > I believe that "Batman" has been around LONG before "Star Wars". The
> > Joker's origin, ie that he fell into a vat of acid, has been around since
> > the 1950s at least. And I gotta admit that falling into lava, becoming
> > disfigured, and becoming totally evil is similiar to falling into acid,
> > becoming disfigured, and becoming totally evil. Not a direct rip-off,
> > mind you, but there is a certain similarity.
> In that case, think "Phantom of the Opera".
> Bas-Jan
The Phantom was BORN that way!!!!
a former newbie who is not yet Cool
Dark Lord Karno Dal
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Andrew Shearwood wrote:
> >Quite honestly, I BELIEVE most of what Lucas tells us. I indeed believe
> >that Vader was always Luke's father; I believe that Luke and Leia were
> >always siblings (if not always twins, necessarily); I believe that Jabba
> >was never intended to be human; and I believe he planned sequels (and
> >prequels, actually).
>
> Check out this part of the RS77 interview then:
>
> George: It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are
> young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader
> have a confrontation, just like they have in Star Wars, and Ben almost
> kills Vader.
Well, pretty soon after ANH came out, he knew there was going to be a
sequel. If he's mentioned that Vader was Luke's father, that would have
given away the suprise planned for ESB.
Jay Majer
In article <5fggjg$9...@comtel.hna.com.au> and...@comtel.hna.com.au (Andrew Shearwood) writes:
>What do you say to that? Lucas says Vader, Obi and Luke's father were
>all different people in this interview. And you can't use the "different
>point of view" crap here, because it isn't Obi-Wan talking.
But at that point, Lucas >wanted< people to think that Vader and Anakin
were two different people.
________________________________________________________________________
Jay Majer This message "Shut up, brain, or I'll
zi...@netcom.com presented in stab you with a Q-tip!"
jma...@ucla.edu ( ( ( ((T H X)) ) ) ) -Homer Simpson
________________________________________________________________________
Jay Majer
In article <331CA1...@mit.edu> Shefali Asthana <sast...@mit.edu> writes:
>The Phantom was BORN that way!!!!
Not as I recall.
Eric J Bycer
Shefali Asthana (sast...@mit.edu) wrote:
: Bas-Jan Walewijk wrote:
: > Gregg T. Allinson <ros...@wwa.com> wrote in article
: > <5f77ou$4bn$1...@kirin.wwa.com>...
: > > I believe that "Batman" has been around LONG before "Star Wars". The
: > > Joker's origin, ie that he fell into a vat of acid, has been around since
: > > the 1950s at least. And I gotta admit that falling into lava, becoming
: > > disfigured, and becoming totally evil is similiar to falling into acid,
: > > becoming disfigured, and becoming totally evil. Not a direct rip-off,
: > > mind you, but there is a certain similarity.
: > In that case, think "Phantom of the Opera".
: > Bas-Jan
: The Phantom was BORN that way!!!!
: a former newbie who is not yet Cool
I am your angel, come to me, Angel of Music.
Sing once again with me, our strange duet,
My power over you, grows stronger yet,
And though you turn from me to glance behind...
The Phantom of the Opera is there, inside your mind!
Eric Bycer
Wow. Between this and the other thread, we've got ourselves some
culture! Who'da thunk it?
665 'til 1,000!
Bas-Jan Walewijk
Shefali Asthana <sast...@mit.edu> wrote in article <331CA1...@mit.edu>...
> Bas-Jan Walewijk wrote:
>
> > In that case, think "Phantom of the Opera".
>
> > Bas-Jan
>
> The Phantom was BORN that way!!!!
Depends whether you've seen one of the "deformed genius" or one of the "acid in
face" versions. I think the original book went with the former, though.
Bas-Jan
--
"Context is strawberries."
--
"Yesterday, some poor fellow was arrested in the rue Le Peletier -
on leaving the exhibition, he had begun biting the passers-by."
- review of the second Impressionist exhibition
--
Another genuine Official RASSM Cool Person. Beware imitations.
rosencrantz
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Andrew Shearwood wrote:
> Check out this part of the RS77 interview then:
> INTERVIEW CUT
>
> What do you say to that? Lucas says Vader, Obi and Luke's father were
> all different people in this interview. And you can't use the "different
> point of view" crap here, because it isn't Obi-Wan talking.
My response to that is, why the heck would Lucas tip his hand that early?
One doesn't go around leaking plot twists in magazine interviews.
Gregg T. Allinson
rosencrantz (n944...@statler.cc.wwu.edu) wrote:
: On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Andrew Shearwood wrote:
: > Check out this part of the RS77 interview then:
: > INTERVIEW CUT
: >
: > What do you say to that? Lucas says Vader, Obi and Luke's father were
: > all different people in this interview. And you can't use the "different
: > point of view" crap here, because it isn't Obi-Wan talking.
: My response to that is, why the heck would Lucas tip his hand that early?
: One doesn't go around leaking plot twists in magazine interviews.
Precisely. Heck, the scene was even shot with Vader saying "Obi-Wan is
your father" ('though I don't know why that would cause Luke to scream
"Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" and refuse to join Vader,
but I digress). Lucas didn't want anybody, including virtually the
entire cast of ESB, to know that Vader was Luke's father 'til Empire
opened.
Now perhaps Lucas didn't ALWAYS want Vader to be Luke's father, but the
facts suggest it. In the third draft, Vader says "I have this feeling I
know you..." when he's chasing Luke's X-Wing. In the first draft, Kane
Starkiller, the "Luke" character's father, is a good guy kept alive by
mechanical parts. I think the most likely thing is that Lucas wanted
Vader to be Luke's dad, but thought that Star Wars would be a failure at
the box office and that he'd never get a chance to tell his entire story.
So he decided to simplify the story and avoid raising the question of
wether or not Vader was really Luke's father, because Lucas thought that
he'd never get the chance to answer the question. However, by never
mentioning Luke's father by name, detailing the specifics of his death,
and intimating that something horrible had happened to Luke's father
("He's got too much of his father in him". 'That's what I'm afraid of'.),
he left the door open for possible sequels to revive and resolve the
question later. I think that if Lucas was sure that there'd be sequels,
the "I have this feeling I know you..." line would've remained.
Eplicon
> Precisely. Heck, the scene was even shot with Vader saying "Obi-Wan is
> your father" ('though I don't know why that would cause Luke to scream
> "Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" and refuse to join Vader,
> but I digress). Lucas didn't want anybody, including virtually the
> entire cast of ESB, to know that Vader was Luke's father 'til Empire
> opened.
Actually, Prowse's "dummy" lines for that particular scene was, "No,
Obi-Wan killed your father." This would make more sense for Luke's
reaction.
---
/-Jack
epl...@aol.com
ra...@genie.com
ra...@compuserve.com
Gregg T. Allinson
Eplicon (epl...@aol.com) wrote:
: > Precisely. Heck, the scene was even shot with Vader saying "Obi-Wan is
: > your father" ('though I don't know why that would cause Luke to scream
: > "Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" and refuse to join Vader,
: > but I digress). Lucas didn't want anybody, including virtually the
: > entire cast of ESB, to know that Vader was Luke's father 'til Empire
: > opened.
: Actually, Prowse's "dummy" lines for that particular scene was, "No,
: Obi-Wan killed your father." This would make more sense for Luke's
: reaction.
It certainly does. I don't know wether I'm misremembering things or I
heard the story wrong, but thanks for setting me straight.
JamesWKing
Precisely. Heck, the scene was even shot with Vader saying "Obi-Wan is
> your father" ('though I don't know why that would cause Luke to scream
> "Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" and refuse to join Vader,
> but I digress). Lucas didn't want anybody, including virtually the
> entire cast of ESB, to know that Vader was Luke's father 'til Empire
> opened.
Eplicon (epl...@aol.com): "Actually, Prowse's 'dummy' lines for that
particular scene was, 'No, Obi-Wan killed your father.' This would make
more sense for Luke's reaction."
Gee, in a way, I kinda like that line even better. Ya know why?
Because it might have provided a double whammy of a revelation if
delivered something like this:
VADER: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father, did he?
LUKE: He told me enough.... He told me YOU killed him!
VADER: No, *OBI-WAN* killed your father.
LUKE: No, that's impossible!
VADER: Search your feelings! You know what I''m saying to be true. In
fact, I'll wager Obi-Wan never ventured to explain to you just who your
father was -- did he?
LUKE: He told me my father was once a great pilot, a Jedi Knight and
good friend of his.
VADER: Luke, *I* am your father.
LUKE: Nooooooooo!
VADER: Don't betray your feelings! Search them. You know what I'm saying
to be true. Luke, the Emperor has.... [Scene continues as normal.]
Now, for the scene to have played out as written above, Obi-Wan's
revelations in "Return of the Jedi" would have to include a passing
reference to the legendary lightsaber duel between Anakin/Vader and Kenobi
near the lava pit for the idea of Kenobi's "killing" of Anakin Skywalker
to be fully understood.
And based on how Kenobi had written Vader off as beyond redemption on
Dagogah in "Jedi," I do believe that Obi-Wan did indeed share some
responsibility for Anakin's becoming Darth Vader; because one can infer
that Kenobi left Anakin/Vader for dead after the duel at the lava pit.
The scene as written above would convey revelations that seem
paradoxically contradictory but at the same time cause more internal moral
quandries and add to Luke's confusion and doubts since he had indeed
sensed that Vader was telling him the truth -- at least from a certain
point of view. : )
By the way, from what source did you find that "No, Obi-Wan killed your
father" dummy line originate? I mean, what magazine reported it?
-- James King
Andrew Shearwood
ros...@wwa.com (Gregg T. Allinson) wrote:
>>: My response to that is, why the heck would Lucas tip his hand that early?
>>: One doesn't go around leaking plot twists in magazine interviews.
>Precisely. Heck, the scene was even shot with Vader saying "Obi-Wan is
>your father" ('though I don't know why that would cause Luke to scream
>"Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" and refuse to join Vader,
>but I digress). Lucas didn't want anybody, including virtually the
>entire cast of ESB, to know that Vader was Luke's father 'til Empire
>opened.
I'm not saying he should have said that Vader was Luke's father.
He shouldn't have said anything at all. However, I believe he was
telling the truth the RS77 interview.
>mechanical parts. I think the most likely thing is that Lucas wanted
>Vader to be Luke's dad, but thought that Star Wars would be a failure at
>the box office and that he'd never get a chance to tell his entire story.
If this is what you believe, why do you think he lied in the RS77 interview?
Why didn't he just say nothing?
>So he decided to simplify the story and avoid raising the question of
>wether or not Vader was really Luke's father, because Lucas thought that
>he'd never get the chance to answer the question. However, by never
Well, he did keep sequel rights, so he thought that there was
a possibility.
>mentioning Luke's father by name, detailing the specifics of his death,
>and intimating that something horrible had happened to Luke's father
>("He's got too much of his father in him". 'That's what I'm afraid of'.),
>he left the door open for possible sequels to revive and resolve the
>question later. I think that if Lucas was sure that there'd be sequels,
>the "I have this feeling I know you..." line would've remained.
Well, why didn't he just kill Vader then? Why wasn't the Han/Leia/
Luke relationship resolved? He thought he might be able to make
a sequel out of SW, but the same backstory was not written from the
inception.
- Andrew.
Hellspawn
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:17:00 -0600, "M.A. Kribble"
<kri...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On 6 Mar 1997, Eplicon wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Prowse's "dummy" lines for that particular scene was, "No,
>> Obi-Wan killed your father." This would make more sense for Luke's
>> reaction.
>>
>
>So how did they prompt Mark Hamill to say "Father?" while he's resting in
>the Falcon? What story did they tell him?
>
>Just curious...
>
>-----
> Meg
>(-o-)
>Non-cool ORS&GC
>
Since Hamill didn't film the scene WITH Vader, maybe they told him
that Luke was telepathically talking to BEN....just a thought.
Hellspawn
H. Crosby
I read an interview with Hamill a few weeks ago and if I recall
correctly, he knew what the real dialogue would be even though the dummy
line was used during filming, presumably to keep the real plot line from
being leaked to the public. Thus, when he says, "Father, " he knows who
he is talking to. I'll have to check the interview again to make sure I
am right about this.
HC
Eric Mohler
In article <33223B...@fox.nstn.ca>, H. Crosby <hcr...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:
>Hellspawn wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:17:00 -0600, "M.A. Kribble"
>> >> Obi-Wan killed your father." This would make more sense for Luke's
>> >> reaction.
/I read an interview with Hamill a few weeks ago and if I recall
/correctly, he knew what the real dialogue would be even though the dummy
/line was used during filming, presumably to keep the real plot line from
/being leaked to the public. Thus, when he says, "Father, " he knows who
/he is talking to. I'll have to check the interview again to make sure I
/am right about this.
/HC
I remember reading an article (may have been sometime in the 1980s; I'll
have to double check) that said that Prowse was not told the lines, but
Hamill was. I believe that Prowse leaked info out before, so Lucas
deliberately told Prowse lies.
Eric
***************************************************************************
* Eric G. Mohler "I grew up here." "You're gonna die here too, *
* Dept. of Psychology kid. Kind of convenient." - Han to Luke, ROTJ *
* (Biological Area) *
* Duke University My purpose-less website: http://www.duke.edu/~egm *
***************************************************************************
JamesWKing
Andrew Shearwood: "However, I believe he (Lucas) was telling the truth
the RS77 interview."
I don't recall anything in the August '77 Rolling Stone interview with
George Lucas that revealed too much. There was no implied relationship
identity-wise between Vader and Luke. It only mentioned the Vader versus
Kenobi duel near the lava pit which ended up scarring Vader for life.
Lucas didn't mention or hint that Vader was Luke's father in any sense in
that '77 interview. The big revelation in that story was the duel between
Kenobi and Vader and Lucas' mention of his master vision for a "trilogy of
trilogies."
-- James King
J M Mason
Andrew Shearwood wrote:
> Check out this part of the RS77 interview then:SNIP
> What do you say to that? Lucas says Vader, Obi and Luke's father were
> all different people in this interview. And you can't use the "different
> point of view" crap here, because it isn't Obi-Wan talking.
Uh, given the fact that he went to the lengths of using dummy lines to
hide the fact that Vader was gonna be Luke's dad, you don't think he could
have maybe used a little disinformation...just because he said something
doesn't make it true:
"Normally the truth is just an excuse for lack of imagination."
Biffan
<<
I remember reading an article (may have been sometime in the 1980s; I'll
have to double check) that said that Prowse was not told the lines, but
Hamill was. I believe that Prowse leaked info out before, so Lucas
deliberately told Prowse lies.
Eric>>
That's the story many of us heard; Prowse had a BIG mouth! (He also
spilled the Ewoks BBQing Han stuff from ROTJ, so he never got better!) In
fact, in Empire, when they're going into the Asteroid Field, and Vader
says, "Asteroids, I don't care about asteroids. Get me that ship!" Prowse
was given, "Hemmorhoids! I have hemmorhoids! I want to sh*t!" They just
needed something close, since they were dubbing the voice in anyway!!!