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Looking for some interesting materials for radiators
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Adam Warnock
Jan 7, 2021, 8:36:46 PM1/7/21
to
Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
Arthur T.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:26:19 PM1/7/21
to
In
Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
properly-done handwaving than explanations that just don't gel.
Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
suspension of disbelief.
The other problem with scientific explanations is that they stop the
story and risk causing glazed eyes when you want rapt attention.
One of the biggest problems I have with mainstream writers trying
their hands at SF is too much (bad) explanation and not enough hand
waving.
But, to answer your question, the easiest is probably pneumatic or
hydraulic. Filled, pressurized areas will keep the panels stiff, and
relieving the pressure will let them bend, roll, and fold.
--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com
Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
>Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
I'm a reader rather than a scientist. I'm much happier with
>Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
>Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
properly-done handwaving than explanations that just don't gel.
Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
suspension of disbelief.
The other problem with scientific explanations is that they stop the
story and risk causing glazed eyes when you want rapt attention.
One of the biggest problems I have with mainstream writers trying
their hands at SF is too much (bad) explanation and not enough hand
waving.
But, to answer your question, the easiest is probably pneumatic or
hydraulic. Filled, pressurized areas will keep the panels stiff, and
relieving the pressure will let them bend, roll, and fold.
--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com
Adam Warnock
Jan 8, 2021, 9:26:40 AM1/8/21
to
-dsr-
Jan 8, 2021, 12:52:04 PM1/8/21
to
On 2021-01-08, Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:26:19 PM UTC-6, Arthur T. wrote:
>> In
>> Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>> >
>> >Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
> On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:26:19 PM UTC-6, Arthur T. wrote:
>> In
>> Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>> >
>> >Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
>> Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
>> and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
>> plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
>> doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
>> get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
>> suspension of disbelief.
>
>> and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
>> plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
>> doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
>> get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
>> suspension of disbelief.
>
> Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.
A radiator is a heat-exchange mechanism, and in space, it doesn't get to use
any mechanism except radiation. So you want lots of surface area.
Inside that surface area, you want maximally efficient heat distribution, and
you get to set the mechanism. There are quite a few liquids which are good at
heat transfer, and while water is not the best such liquid, it has lots of
other uses on [human, at least] ships.
Have your panels unroll as hot water floods through the embedded pipework. You
want panels to be at right angles to each other so that they don't radiate
back on to each other. The water pressure can serve as the stiffening feature.
Don't let them freeze, unless you want it to be a plot point.
If solar panels are useful, you want the radiators at right angles to the
solar panels, and possibly in their shadows. See the ISS layout.
-dsr-
Joel Polowin
Jan 8, 2021, 4:04:08 PM1/8/21
to
On 2021-01-08 9:26 AM, Adam Warnock wrote:
> Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.
While I'm entirely on board with the principles of "keep it simple" and
> Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.
"don't over-explain what can better be left as a black box", you might
want to read about magnetorheological fluids. Ordinarily fluid, they
become much more viscous under magnetic fields. They might be useful in
providing some rigidity to the system that you're describing.
I was slightly irritated while overhearing an audio book that my partner
was listening to recently, in that the author kept referring to lights
as "LEDs". The book was set some 300 years in our future. Being
specific about the lighting technology implied that in 300 years,
despite tremendous advancements in other areas, we'd still be using
LEDs. Unless they intended to make a statement about the state of human
technology, the author would have been better off just using "lights" or
"lamps" or some such thing. The details of the lighting tech weren't
relevant to the story itself.
If your radiators were working by conduction or convection -- that is,
by transferring heat to another medium -- you'd want them to have as
much surface area as possible. If they're working strictly by
radiation to space, you want them to have as much unobstructed
line-of-sight exposure as possible. Radiation from one part of the radiator
that hits and is absorbed by another part of the radiator doesn't do
you any good.
Joel
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Arthur T.
Jan 8, 2021, 4:43:40 PM1/8/21
to
In
Message-ID:<0e8c9058-ab54-43d5...@googlegroups.com>,
The realer the world is to you, the realer you can make it to your
readers, even if much of what makes it real never gets onto a page.
YOU know how it's done, even if all you say is, "He hit the button to
deploy the radiators to get rid of all the waste heat the ship had
accumulated, and watched to make sure they unrolled and stiffened
into proper configuration," or maybe even something simpler.
And I agree with what Joel Polowin said about naming technology.
Using the latest "gee, wow" names or technologies for far future
settings is problematic; better to use either some generic or made-up
term.
Message-ID:<0e8c9058-ab54-43d5...@googlegroups.com>,
Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.
And that's one of the best reasons to figure this kind of thing out.
>And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.
The realer the world is to you, the realer you can make it to your
readers, even if much of what makes it real never gets onto a page.
YOU know how it's done, even if all you say is, "He hit the button to
deploy the radiators to get rid of all the waste heat the ship had
accumulated, and watched to make sure they unrolled and stiffened
into proper configuration," or maybe even something simpler.
And I agree with what Joel Polowin said about naming technology.
Using the latest "gee, wow" names or technologies for far future
settings is problematic; better to use either some generic or made-up
term.
eripe
Jan 10, 2021, 7:41:31 PM1/10/21
to
On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:36:46 AM UTC+7, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
First of just want to refer you to Atomic Rockets, if you haven't already found it.
> Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/heatrad.php
No current day materials can work like you want at the temperatures you need less the radiator becomes ginormous. You basically want a thermarest made from carbon-tungsten composit.
A couple of options
Graphene can be made from very thin strips that can be rolled up, and they have most excellent heat conducting properties. But I don't know if it is enough without some fluid circulation.
A droplet radiator can be folded in too, but you cant do any turning while using it, or you loose you radiator fluid.
Robert Clark
Jan 17, 2021, 8:24:09 AM1/17/21
to
On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-5, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
============================================================================
> Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
Look up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid
and:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid
Some cool videos also on the net describing their properties.
Robert Clark
jack tingle
Nov 18, 2021, 11:38:23 AM11/18/21
to
On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-5, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more rules than I need to.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
Try heavy gauge aluminum foil, painted black with something flexible like black paint. An incompressible fluid will pressurize and stiffen them, and a roller will retract them and squeeze out the fluid when you want to stow them. The structure should be tubular perpendicular to the roller. Life will be limited, so make it cheap enough to be recycled into beer cans or whatever.
>
> Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
There are a number of ways of manufacturing these. The fancy way is to use a complicated rolling procedure to make them from a pair of sheets of aluminum, with complicated bonding, rolling, and surface treatments internally and then hydraulically expanded. Or you could just resistance weld foil into the final shape you want. In either case, a spray can of black paint is the final item.
Good luck,
Jack Tingle
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