How do the remains of civilization decay?
Cypher
Let us say that that a super virus wipes out the entire human population
in under three days. I realize this is virtually impossible, but I need to
have
a reason for everyone being dead suddenly. The disease wipes us out
so fast that very little infrastructure is damaged. There is no widespread
rioting,
no last gasp wars, no looting or anything of that sort. Everyone simply dies
so fast there is no time for that.
So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire infastructure of
the
world still completely in place.
How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
What happens afer..
A) The first day
B) The first week
C) The first month
D) The first year
E) The first decade
F) The first century
The first milenium, eon, a million years, ten million, etc.
It would seem like all power would be out within the first week. Without
maintence all the power grids would rapidly collapse. By the end of the
second
week there is no power anywhere. Sewers would proabably last longer, years
maybe, but would eventually decay into little more than rubble filled
tunnels.
How long would it take for a major city like New York of Tokyo to
revert back to wilderness? What would a major city look like after
several years, decades?
Would any domesticated animals survive? I can see most dogs and cats dying
off with a few surivors reverted back to wild dogs and cats. Would any kinds
of cattle survive without their masters? What about crops? Would they all
die
off?
What animals would be the first to begin colonizing the empty cities and
towns?
I have always wondered about these kinds of things, purely as a mental
experiment. I have never really seen a discussion about it.
Lastly, how long would it take until every last sign of human civilization
was
wiped out completely? This does not include the various probes witch have
left the solarsystem. The would likely survice for countless billion of
years.
Are there any stories or books, or maybe even papers, that have been written
about this type of thing?
mike
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:09:17 -0000, "Cypher" <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
> So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire infastructure of
>the
>world still completely in place.
>
>How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
>
>What happens afer..
>
>A) The first day
>B) The first week
>C) The first month
>D) The first year
>E) The first decade
>F) The first century
>The first milenium, eon, a million years, ten million, etc.
snips, etc.
geez but this is an interesting topic. i have thought about it
myself, but only superficially.
the thing that occured to me as i was reading your message the first
time was about the crops. modern hybrids are incredibly hardy but
have built in achilles heels in that within a given crop, only a few
varieties may be grown. this of course is a bad thing in an untended
world. we have all heard the scenario before: disease runs amok,
death ensues. now that i consider it, wouldn't a similar fate
probably await any plant or animal widely domesticated, hybridized and
grown for agricultural purposes? some farmed animals would starve,
i.e., those kept penned like chickens...actually the chickens would
eat each other until they all died. most commercial hogs would go the
same way. cows on the range would be more successful until a disease
killed them. the pet population wouldn't be as decimated as you
project i don't think. dogs wouldn't do as well as cats, maybe
forming packs, cats would revert to the wild relatively easily
compared to most animals we've meddled with, both with damaging
effects to the small to medium sized wildlife around them. all
housepets would starve quickly. if you are supposing that the
population has just died, there is a lot of carrion around; much more
than nature can handle in it's normally timely fashion. disease could
claim a lot of wildlife as water supplies could become contaminated.
whole areas of densely populated city, comparatively empty of the
wildlife that could help clean up bodies would be deep in rotting
corpses. as for the eventual return of cities to nature, it would
probably follow a progression much like that of any recently burned,
cleared or (volcanically) created land. there has been quite a bit of
study on that i think. powerplants...mmm...i don't know enogh about
the day-to-day on one of those to hazard a guess. i would say that
you are right about sewers outliving the power, but maybe not with
quite the differential projected.
when reading this be aware that i am living in a relative rural area
of the US and this for sure has influenced some of my opinions.
someone from a different area, hemisphere,climate, a city, etc., would
likely see things differently.
mike
Brenda and Larry Clough
Cypher wrote:
>
> Are there any stories or books, or maybe even papers, that have been written
> about this type of thing?
Yes, somebody has written a book on the subject. Unfortunately I can't
remember title or author. But it had large illustrations of artifacts
like the Statue of Liberty, after a century's worth of decay.
--
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD from Tor Books
<clo...@erols.com> http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda
Matt Austern
alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Lynn Leistra) writes:
> Read _Earth Abides_ by Stewart. A handful of people survive, but not
> enough for any widespread rioting or "last gasp wars"; there may have
> been some low-key looting (if you count raiding grocery stores and
> the like -- a few broken windows don't do that much to the infrastructure
> at any rate). He talks about domesticated animals reverting, and
> how the infrastructure in various places fails (which, he points out,
> is very climate-dependent).
A recent Potlatch had a panel entitled "The Bay Area Abides," entirely
devoted to post-Collapse novels set in the Bay Area. There were more
of them than I would have guessed.
But Earth Abides is a very thoughtful and well written book, yes. I
think it's Stewart's only SF.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <344c3...@news.qnet.com>, Cypher <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
>
If everyone dies quickly....
>How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
>
>maintence all the power grids would rapidly collapse. By the end of the
>second
>week there is no power anywhere. Sewers would proabably last longer, years
>maybe, but would eventually decay into little more than rubble filled
>tunnels.
My bet is that everything will stop functioning fairly quickly, but
the ruins will last a long time.
>
>How long would it take for a major city like New York of Tokyo to
>revert back to wilderness? What would a major city look like after
>several years, decades?
Depends on what you mean by wilderness. I think the plants and wild
animals will move in quickly (there's already been a coyote in Central
Park), but that pile of rubble will be a pile of rubble till continental
drift pulls the land under or a glacier grinds it down. I would think
that even a glacier would leave it as a recognizable remant of
civilization to a sufficiently skilled eye. (Types of rock and
isotypes won't be anything that could happen naturally.)
>Would any domesticated animals survive? I can see most dogs and cats dying
>off with a few surivors reverted back to wild dogs and cats. Would any kinds
>of cattle survive without their masters? What about crops? Would they all
>die
>off?
>
I like to speculate about what would happen in the suburbs--they've
got plants imported from all over. While a lot of the plants are well-
suited to the local climate and would be dead in a year or two (longer
for trees) a few would spread and flourish.
The world-wide mixing of species the human species has caused is a
permanent effect--or at least something that will last much more
than a million years.
I don't know about most cats and dogs, since I don't know how the
number of feral animals compares to the number of pets. I also don't
have a feeling for what proportion of the pets would be likely to
trapped indoors.
The pure breeds would certainly disappear, though many of the individuals
would survive. New variants would evolve to fit local conditions.
>What animals would be the first to begin colonizing the empty cities and
>towns?
>
Well, the pigeons, squirrels, and rats are already there. I expect that
the birds of prey would come in early (there are some falcons in cities
already). So would deer. (I'm talking about New York--I don't know about
Tokyo or LA.)
I assume that the pigeons, squirrels, and rats would survive, but they
might become less numerous--they're well-adapted to fitting in the
cracks in human civilization, but might be only fair-to-middling
successes as wild animals.
There might be a similar patterns with the more common weeds.
>I have always wondered about these kinds of things, purely as a mental
>experiment. I have never really seen a discussion about it.
>
>Lastly, how long would it take until every last sign of human civilization
>was
>wiped out completely? This does not include the various probes witch have
>left the solarsystem. The would likely survice for countless billion of
>years.
>
>Are there any stories or books, or maybe even papers, that have been written
>about this type of thing?
>
There was a Poul Anderson story that was reprinted in _Only One Universe_.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Jim Roberts-Miller
In article <62igid$8...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico) wrote:
>
>Cows would go first. Modern cows need to be milked regularly. If they
>aren't, then really bad, disgusting things start happening to them.
>Not pretty.
Obnit: Its cattle, not cows.
Dairy cattle, maybe. Old-fashioned beef cattle out in the pasture
would not have this problem and could survive until taken out by
disease, predators or drought/grass fires.
Jammer Jim Roberts-Miller
--
Texas A&M University '89,'91
"Sometimes lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for." -- Me
David Mitchell
Doug Tricarico <tr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<62igid$8...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
> In <344c3a67...@news.gamewood.net> mike writes:
> >
> >On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:09:17 -0000, "Cypher" <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
> >> So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire
> infastructure of the world still completely in place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>A) The first day
> >>B) The first week
> >>C) The first month
> >>D) The first year
> >>E) The first decade
> >>F) The first century
> >>The first milenium, eon, a million years, ten million, etc.
> <lots of good stuff snipped>
I agree with all the ideas except for a few minor details:
All of our cities would be destroyed within the year. We build everything
way to close together, if you've ever left a pot roast in the oven, or an
iron on I'm sure you can see the logical conclusion... millions of fire
hazards across the world. And if you let a fire go in any of our major
cities the city will burn down. On top of these immediate fire hazards,
you would have lightning strikes, etc... to contend with. Any city of more
than a hundred thousand people will probably burn down within the month.
Smaller towns & cities will be heavily scarred by the fires.
--------------------------
David Mitchell
http://www.jersey.net/~mitchell
mitc...@jersey.net
Brian Trosko
Andrew Crisp <ac...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
: > E) The first decade
: All magnetic-storage devices have failed by now; any alien archaelogist
: picking them up would find only random bits.
Why do you say this? I've got a few 10+ year-old audio cassettes that
still play fine, and my old Commodore 64 can still read my old C64 disks.
Paul Ciszek
>in under three days. I realize this is virtually impossible, but I need to
>have
>a reason for everyone being dead suddenly. The disease wipes us out
>so fast that very little infrastructure is damaged. There is no widespread
>rioting,
>no last gasp wars, no looting or anything of that sort. Everyone simply dies
>so fast there is no time for that.
>the
>world still completely in place.
>
>How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
I once heard someone describing an article on this topic. It might have
been in National Geographic.
>Would any domesticated animals survive? I can see most dogs and cats dying
>off with a few surivors reverted back to wild dogs and cats. Would any kinds
>of cattle survive without their masters? What about crops? Would they all
>die
>off?
Supposedly the Texas Longhorn is the descendant of feral cattle.
As for crops, asparagas can be found in western ghost towns.
>
>Lastly, how long would it take until every last sign of human civilization
>was
>wiped out completely? This does not include the various probes witch have
>left the solarsystem. The would likely survice for countless billion of
>years.
I don't know how well the probes would hold up. I would think that
the Apollo hardware left on the moon would last longer than something
on the surface of the earth; I also suspect that some of our trash
would have an opportunity to fossilize. If we can recognize fossil
bacteria more than three billion years later, would artifacts be
noticable?
>
>Are there any stories or books, or maybe even papers, that have been written
>about this type of thing?
Poul Anderson has a real downer story on this subject. I forget the title.
pciszek at nyx dot net | "When the press is free and every man
Please change "at" to @ and | able to read, all is safe."
dot to "."; Thank you. | --Thomas Jefferson
Robert A. Woodward
> Let us say that that a super virus wipes out the entire human population
> in under three days. I realize this is virtually impossible, but I need to
> have
> a reason for everyone being dead suddenly. The disease wipes us out
> so fast that very little infrastructure is damaged. There is no widespread
> rioting,
> no last gasp wars, no looting or anything of that sort. Everyone simply dies
> so fast there is no time for that.
> So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire infastructure of
> the
> world still completely in place.
>
> How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
>
> What happens afer..
>
> A) The first day
> B) The first week
> C) The first month
> D) The first year
> E) The first decade
> F) The first century
> The first milenium, eon, a million years, ten million, etc.
<snip of speculation of effects>
>
> Are there any stories or books, or maybe even papers, that have been written
> about this type of thing?
IIRC, "On Sequoia Time" by Daniel Keys Moran in the Sep 1996 issue of
Asimov's SF did something along this line.
Dan Goodman
In article <62j5c0$q...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jim Roberts-Miller <jam...@a.crl.com> wrote:
>
>: Dairy cattle, maybe. Old-fashioned beef cattle out in the pasture
>: disease, predators or drought/grass fires.
>
Not in Wyoming, where they're _used_ to being out in winter. Same for
other states which have "real" winters.
_Dairy_ cattle are indoors during winter, usually, yes.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Leonard Erickson
l...@radix.net (Laura Burchard) writes:
> In article <62itap$9...@universe.digex.net>,
> Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>Depends on what you mean by wilderness. I think the plants and wild
>>animals will move in quickly (there's already been a coyote in Central
>>Park),
>
> A *coyote*? I know that Central Park has a remarkable diversity of bird
> species for its location, the benefits of size, but my mental map of NYC
> isn't revealing any pathway for a coyote to make its way into the park.
> Though I'm a little fuzzy on the northern edge, admittedly.
Coyotes are perfectly willing to forage thru urban areas. Cats and
small dogs are a bit large as prey, but they have been known to be
eaten. Rats are a "perfect" size.
Since a coyote is willing to forage urban areas (includung wandering
along streets with modest traffic!) one could *easily* get to Central
Park. It just needs to cross one of the bridges (I can't see one using
the tunnels). Probably one of the older ones with sidewalks.
And upon encountering the park, it'd seem a *perfect* place to hole up
during the day.
I ceased to be surprised by the way wildlife wanders when a deer
wandered out of the (admittedly wild) hills crossed a busy highway and
an open field, and then crossed our company parking lot *in broad
daylight*, to take a swim in the river. This was at lunchtime so we all
got a good look!
Normally the deer at least wait until late night (at which point they
nibble on the landscaping :-)
Of course, this is Oregon, and we have greenspaces and the like.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
sha...@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leo...@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Jim Roberts-Miller
In article <62j5c0$q...@nntp02.primenet.com>, Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jim Roberts-Miller <jam...@a.crl.com> wrote:
>
>: Dairy cattle, maybe. Old-fashioned beef cattle out in the pasture
>: would not have this problem and could survive until taken out by
>: disease, predators or drought/grass fires.
>
>Or the first winter.
That would depend on location. I agree cattle in the northern snowy
climes would have to struggle. But I grew up in Texas, and there it
rarely gets cold enough to kill all the fodder.
Jammer Jim Roberts-Miller -- who knows first hand how tough cattle can
be
Laura Burchard
In article <62itap$9...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>Depends on what you mean by wilderness. I think the plants and wild
>animals will move in quickly (there's already been a coyote in Central
>Park),
A *coyote*? I know that Central Park has a remarkable diversity of bird
species for its location, the benefits of size, but my mental map of NYC
isn't revealing any pathway for a coyote to make its way into the park.
Though I'm a little fuzzy on the northern edge, admittedly.
A real live wild coyote, not a coydog pet someone abandoned? Actually made
its own way in?
Idle question: does Central Park have deer? It's certainly large enough to
support a herd.
Laura
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
Doug Tricarico
In <62j0rm$c4s$1...@nnrp2.crl.com> jam...@a.crl.com (Jim Roberts-Miller)
writes:
>In article <62igid$8...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico) wrote:
>>
>>Cows would go first. Modern cows need to be milked regularly. If
they
>>aren't, then really bad, disgusting things start happening to them.
>>Not pretty.
>
> Obnit: Its cattle, not cows.
>
> Dairy cattle, maybe. Old-fashioned beef cattle out in the pasture
>would not have this problem and could survive until taken out by
>disease, predators or drought/grass fires.
>
>Jammer Jim Roberts-Miller
Well, coming from a family of farmers, we call female bovines "cows"
and anything porcine "pigs." (Ain't no diff'rence 'tween pigs an'
hogs. Pigs is pigs.) And I was specifically talking about female
dairy cows.
I was sorta unclear in my earlier note: Cows would die unpleasant
deaths but the bulls would likely die of boredom or loneliness. Dairy
cows are more prevalent in America than beef cattle, and it's one of
those things that's so common to everyone hereabouts that I generally
don't have to specify. Sorry.
Doug
Doug Tricarico
In <62k738$1...@snews2.zippo.com> Tommy the Terrorist
<may...@super.zippo.com> writes:
>
>In article <62k5k2$m...@clarknet.clark.net> Laura Burchard,
l...@radix.net
>writes:
>>A *coyote*? I know that Central Park has a remarkable diversity
>>of bird species for its location, the benefits of size, but my
>>mental map of NYC isn't revealing any pathway for a coyote to make
>>its way into the park. Though I'm a little fuzzy on the northern
>>edge, admittedly.
>
>>A real live wild coyote, not a coydog pet someone abandoned? Actually
>>made its own way in?
>
>can survive well in human-altered environments i.e. living off garbage
>cans in the suburbs. Don't assume that just because there's no "wild"
>corridor, that the coyote couldn't get in. It wouldn't surprise me if
>the coyote inside would still be living in a human-dependent manner,
>even after finding open space for hunting. OTOH, there are a lot of
>squirrels...
>
>However, it's still possible it's a coydog - apparently the wild
>coyote population is so contaminated with feral dog genes you'd be
>unlikely to find a purebred coyote. I suppose that also makes it
>easier for them to accustom themselves to artificial environments.
My mom's dog is a coydog -- half coyote, half Australian Shepherd. (I
wondered aloud if wshe would chase herself off.) Coydogs don't
resemble coyote very much, although you can see the family influence.
If you see an animal that looks typically coyote, chances are that is
one -- and purebred to boot.
As far as coyotes in NYC, I've never heard of it, but they are
certainly menacing Left Coast and Southern cities, as well as a few in
the Midwest. (My mom's dog comes from my cousins' breeding stock of
Aussies on their Ohio farm.) Coyotes are not the lovable scamps people
sometimes make them out to be. Besides preying on vermin like rats and
wild animals like snakes, rodents and birds, they also take house cats,
small dogs and puppies. A few kids have also been attacked and/or
killed. Ten there's the livestock predation.
But a coyote wouldn't have any trouble at all staying out of sight in
NYC. Not in the Met, certainly, but you'd never see one skulking
through Little Italy or Chinatown.
Doug
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <62ksgr$ogt$1...@nnrp2.crl.com>,
Jim Roberts-Miller <jam...@a.crl.com> wrote:
>In article <62j5c0$q...@nntp02.primenet.com>, Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Jim Roberts-Miller <jam...@a.crl.com> wrote:
>>
>>: disease, predators or drought/grass fires.
>>
>
> That would depend on location. I agree cattle in the northern snowy
>climes would have to struggle. But I grew up in Texas, and there it
>rarely gets cold enough to kill all the fodder.
I don't think *that* would be much of a problem even in colder states;
consider bison, which are a bit larger than your average cow and managed
to make it through winters in the Northern Plains without dying off.
Cattle may have a problem being less adapted to cold than bison, but I
don't know about that. I think other people have talked about ranchers
in snowy climates leaving their cattle out all winter, though.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Matt Austern
je...@bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) writes:
> I think electricity would probably last longer than this. Consider that
> hydroelectric and nuclear power plants would still be in existence, and many
> of them are highly automated. Fossil fuel plants, of course, would stop
> operation rather quickly.
The question isn't how long the generators would last, but how long
the distribution grid would last.
Was the grid designed to stay up, with no human intervention at all,
after three quarters of the generating capacity goes offline? I'm
no power engineer, but I doubt it.
Emma Pease
>In article <62ksgr$ogt$1...@nnrp2.crl.com>,
>Jim Roberts-Miller <jam...@a.crl.com> wrote:
>> That would depend on location. I agree cattle in the northern snowy
>>climes would have to struggle. But I grew up in Texas, and there it
>>rarely gets cold enough to kill all the fodder.
>I don't think *that* would be much of a problem even in colder states;
>consider bison, which are a bit larger than your average cow and managed
>to make it through winters in the Northern Plains without dying off.
As a rule of thumb animals in cold climates tend to be bigger than
their counterparts in warmer lands (polar bears are the largest of the
bears for example). I believe this is because the surface area/volume
ratio is less so less heat is lost. Also large animals would have
more fat reserves therefore could get by on short rations for longer
(assuming they could stock up during the summer).
I would expect feral cats, dogs, horses, goats, and cattle in North
America. I don't think sheep would make it. Also an increase in
population of wolves and mountain lions and an initial increase in the
population of coyotes followed by a decrease when the big predators
expand into current coyote lands.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ em...@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Geoffrey C Marshall
Andrew Crisp wrote:
>
> > E) The first decade
>
> All magnetic-storage devices have failed by now; any alien archaelogist
> picking them up would find only random bits. Some buildings may collapse
> from exposure.
>
I've read 10 year old diskettes with no problem.
Geoff...
Andrew Crisp
Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<62jou9$6...@nntp02.primenet.com>...
> Andrew Crisp <ac...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>
> : > E) The first decade
>
> : All magnetic-storage devices have failed by now; any alien archaelogist
> : picking them up would find only random bits.
>
> still play fine, and my old Commodore 64 can still read my old C64 disks.
>
Scientific American article of a few years back about the decay of magnetic
data storage.
Andrew Crisp
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <62lq54$9...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Andrea Lynn Leistra <alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>: I don't think *that* would be much of a problem even in colder states;
>: to make it through winters in the Northern Plains without dying off.
>
>outcompete them for alimited food supplyif humans were taken out of the
>picture.
That's probably true. My point was just that there's enough stuff
under the snow that large vaguely bovine animals could survive winters
without being fed. Emma pointed out that bison have much larger
fat reserves than cattle, though, so even my original point probably
isn't valid.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Graydon
In article <62m2d6$k...@elaine40.Stanford.EDU>,
>>Bison are considerably hardier and smarter then cattle, and would
>>outcompete them for alimited food supplyif humans were taken out of the
>>picture.
>
>That's probably true.
They're interfertile. Same species.
If the longhorn genes get into the bison population - and really, it's the
other way around; many more longhorns than bison - you'd get some
pliestocene long horned bison back, or possibly something vaguely aurochs
like, or maybe just bison with slightly larger horns. Hard to say.
>My point was just that there's enough stuff
>under the snow that large vaguely bovine animals could survive winters
>without being fed. Emma pointed out that bison have much larger
>fat reserves than cattle, though, so even my original point probably
>isn't valid.
You'd get _some_ survivors and rapid selection; there aren't just herfords
out there, there are longhorns, and wee highland cattle, and brahma bull
herds, and heaven knows what else.
--
goo...@interlog.com -> mail to Graydon | http://piglet.org/momentum
gra...@gooroos.com --> mail acquires the | submissions guidelines for
superball nature metrical poetry (lengthy ok)
Steve Brinich
Justin Fang wrote:
> I'm pretty sure it was Omni. They also mentioned that the Pyramids
> were good for at least another 5000 years, and would probably outlast
> the Hoover Dam, since they're rather less subject to floods.
I'd estimate that the Pyramids would last more like 50,000 years --
they've _already_ lasted nearly 5000 years with only superficial damage
(much of which was done by human scavenging, e.g. the removal of the
limestone facings).
--
Steve Brinich ste...@access.digex.net If the government wants us
PGP:89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E to respect the law
http://www.access.digex.net/~steve-b it should set a better example
William Baird
In article <62l9tj$m...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
Doug Tricarico <tr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>sometimes make them out to be. Besides preying on vermin like rats and
>wild animals like snakes, rodents and birds, they also take house cats,
>small dogs and puppies.
A note on the house cat thing. We lost several cats to them. In Los
Alamos, they picked up the habit/tactic of scaring a cat down a street
with a pack/group and having a few waiting at the other end. Kittens
never had a problem finding a home in LA.
>A few kids have also been attacked and/or killed. Ten there's the
>livestock predation.
I've not heard of kids attacked. At least here in NM...
IIRc, coyotes are one of species that seems to have beenfited greatly with
coming of western civ to teh Americas. For some reason I think I remember
a map of before and after for their territory and seeing vastly
increased...enough to stun me.
Will
>Doug
--
Will Baird email: wba...@acca.nmsu.edu http://essex.nmsu.edu/~scomputi/
Phantoms! Whenever I think I fully understand mankind's purpose on earth...
suddenly I see phantoms dancing in the shadows...[saying] pointly as words,
"What you know is nothing little man; what you have to learn, immense." - CD
Geoffrey C Marshall
Doug Tricarico wrote:
>
> My mom's dog is a coydog -- half coyote, half Australian Shepherd. (I
> wondered aloud if wshe would chase herself off.) Coydogs don't
> resemble coyote very much, although you can see the family influence.
> If you see an animal that looks typically coyote, chances are that is
> one -- and purebred to boot.
>
Shepherd ?
Seriously ? I'm dying to know....
Geoff...
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
How long would "non-biodegradable" plastic objects last?
===================== ====================================
BLAINE GORDON MANYLUK email: bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
EDMONTON, AB
Doug Tricarico
In <344E94A0...@ozemail.com.au> Geoffrey C Marshall
Just in case you aren't kidding:
Australian Shepherds are misnamed in that they were largely developed
in the US. It's quite possible they're called something else Down
Under, but I've never heard another name for them.
They are a medium-size dog (35-50 pounds, 20-25 inches tall) which come
in three basic colors, red merle, blue merle and tri-color (think
calico cat - I call my mom's dog the Calico Coyote). There are other
colors, but these are the most common. They often have bright blue
eyes which are almost white, but generally the eyes are light brown or
amber. They have a bobtail, which takes some getting used to, but
after spending time with an Aussie, dogs with tails start to look odd.
Aussies are high-energy, extremely smart dogs that love to work. I
think the breed is wonderful with few of the health problems displayed
in many other breeds. (Although this is likely to change with the
increase in their popularity and recent AKC recognition.) Due to their
high exercise needs, Aussies are _not_ a breed for everyone and make
bad apartment dwellers.
Do a web search for Australian Shepherd and you'll pull up plenty of
pictures. Australian Shepherds are sometimes confused with Australian
Cattle Dogs (which is like confusing Boxers with Poodles as far as I'm
concerned) -- Mel Gibson had an ACD sidekick in THE ROAD WARRIOR.
Doug
Ian Dobbie
In article <62l9cr$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico) writes:
>In <62jp21$6...@nntp02.primenet.com> Brian Trosko <btr...@primenet.com>
>writes:
>>
>>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>: >Or the first winter.
>>: Not in Wyoming, where they're _used_ to being out in winter.
>It's an interesting question, anyway. Cattle eat grass and such, and
>there's still edible flora under the snow. Quite a lot of them would
>die, but it's possible enough would make it through the first couple of
>winters to stage a comeback. Then again, maybe not. There'd probably
>be quite a lot of variables -- predation, injuries, severity of the
>winter, etc.
It might be interesting to note that significant differences might
happen somewhere like the UK, with a mild climate and no large preditors.
Nearly all cattle (especailly in Southern Britain) winter outdoors and
although mostly they are fed. Sheep however are rarely fed during winter.
It seems to me that very different ecologies would develop in different
places (a revesal of the harmonising of ecologies created by imported plants
and organisms all over the world).
Ian
Geoffrey C Marshall
Emma Pease wrote:
>
> I would expect feral cats, dogs, horses, goats, and cattle in North
> America. I don't think sheep would make it. Also an increase in
> population of wolves and mountain lions and an initial increase in the
> population of coyotes followed by a decrease when the big predators
> expand into current coyote lands.
Think you are wrong about the sheep. They
can revert pretty quickly. Massive dieback
yes, but if a few survived, I think they'd
adjust pretty quick.
Geoff...
David Mitchell
Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in article
<Q6RT00O5...@teleport.com>...
civilization
> > was
> > wiped out completely? This does not include the various probes witch
have
> > left the solarsystem. The would likely survice for countless billion of
> > years.
>
> surface. Anaconda's strip mine will last as long as the Rocky Mountains,
> and our nuclear waste dumps will be detectable until that portion of the
> earth's crust gets recycled into the interior, up to a billion years from
> now. There will be more human remains to dig up ten million years from
> now than there are pre-human remains today. And don't forget our
"sanitary
> landfills," which may be the most enduring artifact of our civilization.
I agree. And I'll add that ironically one of the longest lasting monument
would be the sphinx which is already several thousand years old. Wouldn't
it be ironic if the sphinx was our last standing monument & alien
archealogists thought it represented the height of human accomplishment?
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
] "Thomas Womack" <mert...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
-snip-
] > Ducks are obvious, cows I presume were once bison...
]
] Aurochs. Went extinct about two thousand years ago; some of the Roman
] writers of the time commented on it. Not all that much like bison,
] from the descriptions I've read.
Aurochs went extinct 2,000 years ago? I thought they lasted until
around 1600.
--
John Moreno
Dana Crom
In article <344FE6EB...@ozemail.com.au>,
Geoffrey C Marshall <co...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>I wasn't kidding.
>Down in the most southern parts of Australia we
>tend to use the same dogs as England and NZ.
>Black and white, medium size (Kelpie ?).
>Getting a bit into 'Aussie Climes' you will
>find mostly "Blue Heelers", which I think
>you are calling the Aussie Cattle Dog.
>The further North you go, the more "Red
>Heelers" you see.
Your "Blue Heeler" sounds like what's called a "Queensland Healer" here in
the US. Wonderful cattle dogs - 50-60 lbs in weight, rather compact,
tough as rocks.
Real work (play) ethic, too - they usually *love* their work. They tend to
fixate on a single person - ours was *definitely* my grandfather's dog -
but are usually good natured with others. Pal soaked up an incredible
amount of abuse from my younger brothers and cousins quite happily; he and
they all thought of it as "petting" ("petting" a child that hard would be
considered a spanking). I suppose a swat from a human wouldn't really
register as "pain" for him - I saw him get kicked halfway across the
barnyard by an angry cow without being visibly slowed.
If I ever move far enough from the city to have the room a Queensland Heeler
needs, I want another. Not really fair to the dog without cattle to herd;
though I've seen ours heard horses, ducks, chickens, and children when the
cattle weren't convenient, you could tell it Just Wasn't The Same.
--
--------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Dana Crom / "If you have a cat you're sharing your life with
da...@pacbell.net / a furry little sociopath" - Rick Cook
San Jose, California / "More like a bright 2 year old" - Me
Thomas Womack
Geoffrey C Marshall wrote in message <344F38DD...@ozemail.com.au>...
What were sheep before they were domesticated? Ibexes?
Similarly chickens; I know there are various varieties of jungle fowl
around. Ducks are obvious, cows I presume were once bison, and wild horses
and wild pigs still exist, but I've never heard of a wild chicken. Turkeys
in the American forests, fine.
Tom
Geoffrey C Marshall
Doug Tricarico wrote:
>
> Just in case you aren't kidding:
>
> Australian Shepherds are misnamed in that they were largely developed
> in the US. It's quite possible they're called something else Down
> Under, but I've never heard another name for them.
>
> They are a medium-size dog (35-50 pounds, 20-25 inches tall) which come
> in three basic colors, red merle, blue merle and tri-color (think
> calico cat - I call my mom's dog the Calico Coyote). There are other
> colors, but these are the most common. They often have bright blue
> eyes which are almost white, but generally the eyes are light brown or
> amber. They have a bobtail, which takes some getting used to, but
> after spending time with an Aussie, dogs with tails start to look odd.
>
> Aussies are high-energy, extremely smart dogs that love to work. I
> think the breed is wonderful with few of the health problems displayed
> in many other breeds. (Although this is likely to change with the
> increase in their popularity and recent AKC recognition.) Due to their
> high exercise needs, Aussies are _not_ a breed for everyone and make
> bad apartment dwellers.
>
> Do a web search for Australian Shepherd and you'll pull up plenty of
> pictures. Australian Shepherds are sometimes confused with Australian
> Cattle Dogs (which is like confusing Boxers with Poodles as far as I'm
> concerned) -- Mel Gibson had an ACD sidekick in THE ROAD WARRIOR.
>
> Doug
I wasn't kidding.
Down in the most southern parts of Australia we
tend to use the same dogs as England and NZ.
Black and white, medium size (Kelpie ?).
Getting a bit into 'Aussie Climes' you will
find mostly "Blue Heelers", which I think
you are calling the Aussie Cattle Dog.
The further North you go, the more "Red
Heelers" you see.
I don't use the 'net much except for groups,
but I'll search next time I'm on....
Geoff...
Steve Brinich
Mark D Smith wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
>> more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile; domestic turkeys are
>> unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty clumsy, as they've
>> been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
>
> Actually, wild turkey AREN'T all that bright. A friend has a MALE
> peacock that a wild tom has been trying to mate with for the last
> 2 years.
Now, now, don't insult the creature's intelligence because of its
choice of lifestyle.... ;-)
mike
On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:52:36 +0000, btg...@rmplc.co.uk (I. T. Manager)
wrote:
>Steve Brinich <ste...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
>> The fact that people have bred for intelligence in working animals,
>> and sometimes pets, might give them a bit of a head start. The idea
>> of a feline civilization discovering the relics of the Great Old Ones
>> does have a certain charm....
>
>It's been done, I think by Andre Norton. The humans have abandoned a
>planet, and the story covers an evolved feline entering an old human
>complex. Title anybody?
>
>--
>'ric
there is a great humerous 2 book series by grant naylor - "red dwarf"
and "better than life." due to the effects of an extended stay in a
state of hibernation by the only human on this ship, the only other
lifeform on board, a pregnant cat, had the chance to evolve. after a
ludicrous amount of time, the man comes out to find intelligent
cats...it was very entertaining.
mike
Stan Barton
lar...@teleport.com (Larry Caldwell) wrote:
>In article <87750612...@wagasa.cts.com>,
>k...@king.cts.com (Keith Thompson) wrote:
>
>> Hoover Dam
>> remains essentially intact until it's washed away by the floods at the
>> end of the next ice age.
>
>I don't know about Hoover (or even where it is) but the Grand Coulee, several
>times more massive than the Great Pyramid, was planned for a 100 year life
>span, and it's over halfway through that. Rivers erode things, even large
>hunks of concrete. Dams won't last long.
Just watched a documentary about Glen Canyon dam which stated that it
was engineered to last for 1000 years. The dams probably won't erode
until the lakes and overflows silt up and water starts going over the
top.
Stan Barton: sba...@erols.com or sba...@scitor.com
Last fiction: _True Names and Other Dangers_ by Vernor Vinge
Last non-fiction: _Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley_ by Sheri L. Dew
Current work: systems engineering & writing cost mgmt software
Current activity: training to be a scoutmaster
----------------------------------------------------------------------
tmi...@acropolis.ibm.net
Steve Brinich <ste...@access.digex.net> writes:
> Now, now, don't insult the creature's intelligence because of its
> choice of lifestyle.... ;-)
Especially so, since if you've ever hunted wild turkeys, they can
be *eerily* intelligent at times...
--
Cerebus <tmi...@ibm.net>
PGP Fingerprint:
BC AB 28 19 A6 A4 FF 5B CA 4D B4 03 3A A7 F4 5C
Larry Caldwell
In article <62nnnb$r...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico) wrote:
> Aussies are high-energy, extremely smart dogs that love to work. I
> think the breed is wonderful with few of the health problems displayed
> in many other breeds. (Although this is likely to change with the
> increase in their popularity and recent AKC recognition.) Due to their
> high exercise needs, Aussies are _not_ a breed for everyone and make
> bad apartment dwellers.
I'm sorry to hear about the AKC news. The Border Collie Association filed
suit a couple years ago to prevent AKC recognition of the breed, which
protects at least one breed of working dogs from ruin.
I've always thought that the best thing the Humane Society could do for
dogs would be to euthanize AKC members, though they really deserve a much
longer and more painful death that includes shattered hips and blindness.
-- Larry
João Luis
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:09:17 -0000, "Cypher" <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
> Let us say that that a super virus wipes out the entire human population
>in under three days. I realize this is virtually impossible, but I need to
>have
>a reason for everyone being dead suddenly. The disease wipes us out
>so fast that very little infrastructure is damaged. There is no widespread
>rioting,
>no last gasp wars, no looting or anything of that sort. Everyone simply dies
>so fast there is no time for that.
> So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire infastructure of
>the
>world still completely in place.
>
>How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
Think of the piramids. 4000 years and still standing. I wonder if any
of our "wonders" will last that long?
---- /// ----
I'm here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm fresh out of bubblegum.
David Joseph Greenbaum
In a fit of divine composition, Geoffrey C Marshall (co...@ozemail.com.au) inscribed in fleeting electrons:
: Think you are wrong about the sheep. They
: can revert pretty quickly. Massive dieback
: yes, but if a few survived, I think they'd
: adjust pretty quick.
Domestic sheep *do* *not* *molt*. This poses a proplem for sheep in the
heights of summer anywhere deciduous.
Dave G.
--
Such fragrance -
from where,
which tree?
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On 24 Oct 1997 02:08:14 GMT, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike
Chary) wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>>
>>Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
>>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile;
>
>Taste's better than Jack Daniels, though :)
Ick! No, it doesn't.
--
TOUCHED BY THE GODS: Hardcover, Tor Books, now available! $24.95
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Updated 8/5/97
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>What were sheep before they were domesticated? Ibexes?
No, sheep, I think.
>Similarly chickens; I know there are various varieties of jungle fowl
>around.
Chickens are from China originally, and the wild species are extremely
scarce but still exist.
> Ducks are obvious, cows I presume were once bison...
Aurochs. Went extinct about two thousand years ago; some of the Roman
writers of the time commented on it. Not all that much like bison,
from the descriptions I've read.
>...and wild horses
>and wild pigs still exist, but I've never heard of a wild chicken. Turkeys
>in the American forests, fine.
Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile; domestic turkeys are
unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty clumsy, as they've
been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
tmi...@acropolis.ibm.net
dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) writes:
> Depends where you are, I think. In New York State, dairy cattle greatly
> outnumber beef cattle. But in Texas or Wyoming, it's almost certainly the
> other way around.
Having grown up in upstate NY and now living in South Texas, I'd
like to confirm this. 8)
Geoffrey C Marshall
Dana Crom wrote:
>
> Your "Blue Heeler" sounds like what's called a "Queensland Healer" here in
> the US. Wonderful cattle dogs - 50-60 lbs in weight, rather compact,
> tough as rocks.
>
different...
> Real work (play) ethic, too - they usually *love* their work. They tend to
> fixate on a single person - ours was *definitely* my grandfather's dog -
> but are usually good natured with others. Pal soaked up an incredible
> amount of abuse from my younger brothers and cousins quite happily; he and
> they all thought of it as "petting" ("petting" a child that hard would be
> considered a spanking). I suppose a swat from a human wouldn't really
> register as "pain" for him - I saw him get kicked halfway across the
> barnyard by an angry cow without being visibly slowed.
>
They are certainly one hell of a dog. Some of
them are incredibly smart too...
> If I ever move far enough from the city to have the room a Queensland Heeler
> needs, I want another. Not really fair to the dog without cattle to herd;
> though I've seen ours heard horses, ducks, chickens, and children when the
> cattle weren't convenient, you could tell it Just Wasn't The Same.
I don't know San Jose at all, or what environment
you live in, but a Bluey doesn't need a country
environment at all. There are many metropolitan
ones around here, mostly pets. What they do need
is a 'mate'. Someone to be with. If you take
them everywhere you go, you don't need a leash
(when trained, and they help train each other),
and they will find the opportunity for exercise
themselves. Mostly they don't get idle until
old. Then they can 'barrel' if not exercised.
I'm no expert here, but that has been my
experience of them anyway. A truly remarkable
dog....
Geoff...
Rainer Frohnhöfer
lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) wrote:
>Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile; domestic turkeys are
>unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty clumsy, as they've
>been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
Now, if we take Pamela Anderson and mate her children with the right folks
and go on for another twenty generations ...
Oh. Damn. Won't work. Not genuine ...
-------------------------------------(Sorry, couldn't resist)
"Um Energie zu sparen,
wird das Licht am Ende des Tunnels
vorlaeufig abgeschaltet." rai...@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de
(public key avaible at any key server near you ...)
Tony Buckland
In article <01bcdb3c$1ae0ebc0$5805...@mitchell.jersey.net>,
David Mitchell <mitc...@jersey.net> wrote:
>I agree. And I'll add that ironically one of the longest lasting monument
>would be the sphinx which is already several thousand years old. Wouldn't
>it be ironic if the sphinx was our last standing monument & alien
>archealogists thought it represented the height of human accomplishment?
In which case, it's about time we gave the Sphinx a prosthetic nose loaded
with informative CDroms.
Joseph Askew
Geoffrey C Marshall (co...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
: Think you are wrong about the sheep. They
: can revert pretty quickly. Massive dieback
: yes, but if a few survived, I think they'd
: adjust pretty quick.
When I was younger they caught an escaped sheep up near the Mount
Bold Dam. It has been lose for about three years. They could tell
because of its wool. Modern domesticated sheep have lost the simple
ability to shed their wool. Some breeds still do this (I think the
Faeroe Island sheep for instance) but not the ones most people use.
Now I don't know about you but I can't see a sheep surviving for
long in the wild with three year's wool on its back. Not in Adelaide
or anywhere else in Australia. Not even in Britain or the northern
US. Anyone know of a colony of feral sheep? Goats yes, but not sheep.
Joseph
--
Here's to Sam and Shari Askew on the birth of Ethan John & Isaac David
I think Spam should NOT be sent to root@localhost, postmaster@localhost,
abuse@localhost, root@bizserve, webm...@cyberpromo.com, cust...@usps.gov
and most of all not to pres...@whitehouse.gov, first...@whitehouse.gov
Joseph Askew
Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) wrote:
: >What were sheep before they were domesticated? Ibexes?
: No, sheep, I think.
The modern domestic sheep (Ovis aries) was probably bred from either
the European Mouflon (O. Musimon) or the Asian Mouflon (O. Orientalis)
Both species survive in tiny numbers, especially the European one.
There are several other species of wild sheep including the Marco
Polo Sheep (O. ammon poli)which is a big animal weighing up to 140
kg, the Argali (I don't know the proper name. Sorry) and the Barbary
which might just be an Asian Mouflon under another name.
: >Similarly chickens; I know there are various varieties of jungle fowl
: >around.
: Chickens are from China originally, and the wild species are extremely
: scarce but still exist.
I think they come from south east Asia rather than China. In the wild
they maybe rare, although I hear they exist, but in the Adelaide Zoo
they do, or did, wander around by themselves. I don't think they even
get fed. Pretty impressive birds to look at. Smart enough not to play
with small children which puts them streets ahead of any chicken I
know of.
: Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
: more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile; domestic turkeys are
: unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty clumsy, as they've
: been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
They are also incredibly vunerable to disease. Any sort of disease.
And cold. And wet. Frankly they are so useless I don't know why any
one eats them. I prefer goose myself.
Joseph Askew
Larry Caldwell (lar...@teleport.com) wrote:
: > Aussies are high-energy, extremely smart dogs that love to work. I
: I'm sorry to hear about the AKC news.
: The Border Collie Association filed
: suit a couple years ago to prevent AKC recognition of the breed, which
: protects at least one breed of working dogs from ruin.
Geez. What does the AKC do that is so bad? How would it protect
the breed? Most working dogs I know of are miscellaneous in origin.
Mostly Heelers if cattle dogs, or mostly Kelpie if sheep. But what
else I couldn't say.
: I've always thought that the best thing the Humane Society could do for
: dogs would be to euthanize AKC members, though they really deserve a much
: longer and more painful death that includes shattered hips and blindness.
The RSPCA has been lobbying some Dog Societies around here for some
time and now they are working together. Some breeds have changed the
rules about what makes a "perfect" dog so that an animal with a very
pushed in nose which might have won a prize a few years back is now
judged to be a defective animal. The general attitude is that a dog
that is bred to such an extent that it is painful for the animal is
not a good dog. Surely this is an area the US is way ahead of this
country in? I think shattered hips and blindness would be too kind
for whoever bred a naked cat.
Many of them are also working to breed out genetic diseases too. To
get recognition for some breeds you have to be able to show no history
of things like displaced shoulders.
Joseph Askew
Geoffrey C Marshall (co...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
: > > Actually, wild turkey AREN'T all that bright. A friend has a MALE
: > > peacock that a wild tom has been trying to mate with for the last
: > > 2 years.
: > Now, now, don't insult the creature's intelligence because of its
: > choice of lifestyle.... ;-)
: Agreed. An peacock's are such beautiful animals....
: Now *where* did I put that feather....
I think that turkeys are so dumb that they will in fact try to
mate with a stick so long as it is vaguely shaped like a turkey
head and has a piece of red on it. Now I would call that really
dumb except I remember thinking Jessica Rabbit was a sexy little
thing (a bunch of lines on a piece of paper) so I'll stick with
just dumb.
Of course it could just be one of those things Psych students tell
Maths students when they are bored.
Joseph
--
Remember. This Election : Vote [1] The Death to Ray Martin Party
Mike Chary
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>On 24 Oct 1997 02:08:14 GMT, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike
>Chary) wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile;
>>
>
>Ick! No, it doesn't.
Okay, remember when I called you a gentleman, a scholar, and a judge of
fine whiskey? I might be forced to withdraw the last part :)
This depends on how you meant the above statement. I have a friend who
insists the only drinkable general market bourbon is Maker's Mark so
anything below that in quality from Wild Turkey on down is the same.
But Aahz isn't here right now, so... :)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
In Memoriam Richie Ashburn, the Greatest Defensive Center Fielder of All
Time. A hell of a hitter and the best announcer this biased Phillies fan
ever heard. We'll miss you Whitey. :'(
John Dierdorf
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:32:26, jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph
Askew) wrote:
> Doug Tricarico (tr...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : Many grains would survive, although some (like corn) would likely
> : perish since they must be artificially inseminated. As always, those
> : plants which can survive will survive.
>
> I doubt most domesticated crops would survive. Grains have been bred
> for a long time for high yields and to a lesser extent some disease
> resistence (especially since people started to have a clue what that
> was about). What they have not been bred for is to be tough. They do
> not have to be as they have farmers to eliminate most of the serious
> competition through pesticides, harrowing and hoeing. Indeed the very
> thing we want grain for, high yield, counts against it in the wild as
> it often involves too much resources diverted from other purposes. In
> fact I can't think of one domesticated grain that has made it into the
> wild and survived there (wild oats is a problem, domesticated oats
> are not).
All domesticated grains (and several other domesticated plants) have
lost their ability to efficiently distribute seeds, due to selection
by cultivators. It is NOT in the interest of a farmer that wheat,
corn, or rice grains come lose and scatter, and they don't.
Similarly, wild bean pods split open so the seeds can disperse, but
modern green beans and limas don't split. Indeed, botanical
archealogists use exactly this criterion to tell domesticated (farmed)
from wild (gathered) seeds found in ancient settlements and caves.
OTOH the entire pumpkin/squash line do quite well on their own, as
anyone who ever started to grow zucchini has found out. (For that
matter, anyone who KNOWS someone who started to grow zucchini!)
For the worst case, think of the sterile 'seedless' food crops:
grapes, bananas, etc.
--
John Dierdorf (dier...@io.com)
Austin, TX
Nancy Lebovitz
Even though the roads wouldn't last as roads, wouldn't the plants
growing above them be different from the other plants nearby?
As for the longer term, are there any theories about whether the
whole present surface of the earth likely to eventually be subducted?
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Tony Buckland
In article <62t2ks$2...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>As for the longer term, are there any theories about whether the
>whole present surface of the earth likely to eventually be subducted?
reason it's sitting there exposed for us to admire is that it's
subject to glacial scouring, making it a lousy place to build
a long-lasting monument to ourselves.
Ari Rabkin
In article <3450eb29...@news.telepac.pt>, nop1...@mail.telepac.pt
(João Luis) wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:09:17 -0000, "Cypher" <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Let us say that that a super virus wipes out the entire human population
> >in under three days. I realize this is virtually impossible, but I need to
> >have
> >a reason for everyone being dead suddenly. The disease wipes us out
> >so fast that very little infrastructure is damaged. There is no widespread
> >rioting,
> >no last gasp wars, no looting or anything of that sort. Everyone simply dies
> >so fast there is no time for that.
> > So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire infastructure of
> >the
> >world still completely in place.
> >
> >How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
>
> Think of the piramids. 4000 years and still standing. I wonder if any
> of our "wonders" will last that long?
Mt. Rushmore?
--
Ari Rabkin
arir...@geocities.com
Alter S. Reiss
On 22 Oct 1997, Emma Pease wrote:
> I would expect feral cats, dogs, horses, goats, and cattle in North
> America. I don't think sheep would make it. Also an increase in
> population of wolves and mountain lions and an initial increase in the
> population of coyotes followed by a decrease when the big predators
> expand into current coyote lands.
I find this to be an absolutely fascinating topic; if all the
works of man are destroyed by some catastrophy, there would still be
evidence of our passing in the fossil record, simply because of the way we
spread species across the planet. Feral cats, yes, but what about feral
lions? There are enough zoos, game farms, and private large animal
collections to allow for a lion population in the US; and there was one up
until recently, in geological terms. They probably went extinct because
they were out-competed by Smilodon, the Bear-Dogs, and because they
couldn't catch up with pronghorns. Should be enough beef and deer to keep
them going for a while...
Kinda makes me wonder what species would make it out of the Bronx
Zoo to thrive. Anecdote: A certifiable loony kept a wide array of exotic
animals in his house. When forced to leave, he let them all free. For
the better part of a decade, Monsey, NY had a population of wild Peafowl.
There is nothing more startling than going to a friend's suburban house,
and being woken up by a Peacock strutting around in his driveway, sounding
like something was strangling it. Anyhow.
The realy big scary animals would probably just die of starvation,
though it is possible that given enough cause they might jump their moats.
Tropical animals would die when winter came, but the emu, wild horses,
camels, and similiar beasts would have a good shot at making it...
Speaking of which, how many ostrich farms are there out in the midwest?
Would they have a chance?
And what would happen in Australia, without humans keeping the
numbers of rabbits and cats down? Off hand I'd guess complete ecological
collapse, but it's possible that nature would compensate. Introduced game
fish would probably cause serious overpopulation problems in any number of
waterways in the absence of anglers, and wind up pushing native species
out entirely.
I'd bet that native species wouldn't push back in all that easily;
wolf, lynx, and cougar would have a hard time pushing out escaped ocelots,
wild dogs, and tigers... All this would make for some nice SF background,
no?
-- Alter S. Reiss - www.geocities.com/Area51/2129 - asr...@ymail.yu.edu
"You'd love it [The Oddysey]. It's just like "Star Trek Voyager"
Alter S. Reiss
On 22 Oct 1997, Laura Burchard wrote:
> A *coyote*? I know that Central Park has a remarkable diversity of bird
> species for its location, the benefits of size, but my mental map of NYC
> isn't revealing any pathway for a coyote to make its way into the park.
> Though I'm a little fuzzy on the northern edge, admittedly.
Take the 1 or 9 train from the Bronx, gets off at Columbus Circle
- what could be simpler?
Actualy, I think that the presence of Coyotes in New York was
reported in one of the papers, and refered to for a while by David
Letterman ("New York - We Got Coyotes!)
> A real live wild coyote, not a coydog pet someone abandoned? Actually made
> its own way in?
>
> Idle question: does Central Park have deer? It's certainly large enough to
> support a herd.
To the best of my knowledge, no. It's just too busy a park for a
herd of deer to go unnoticed.
Geoffrey C Marshall
David Joseph Greenbaum wrote:
>
> Domestic sheep *do* *not* *molt*. This poses a proplem for sheep in the
> heights of summer anywhere deciduous.
Well, we aren't 'deciduous'. Australian trees
tend to keep their leaves and drop their bark.
But we are not exactly 'temperate' either.
Nevertheless, sheep seem to have solved the
problem. There are some (few, but some)
feral sheep in both places.
Geoff...
Geoffrey C Marshall
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
> On 24 Oct 1997 02:08:14 GMT, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike
> Chary) wrote:
>
> >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
> >>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile;
> >
> >Taste's better than Jack Daniels, though :)
>
> Ick! No, it doesn't.
Used too, before they reduced it to a milksop's
drink....
Geoff... (Hic!)....
Geoffrey C Marshall
Doug Lampert wrote:
>
> In article <3453aa12...@news.clark.net>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
> >On 24 Oct 1997 02:08:14 GMT, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike
> >Chary) wrote:
>
> >>Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>
> >>>Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
> >>>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile;
>
> >>Taste's better than Jack Daniels, though :)
>
> >Ick! No, it doesn't.
>
> drinkable Julep out of Wild Turkey, name an equivalent use for JD.
> Makers Mark is for when you actually want to drink something straight.
>
In Aussie, "rough pricing"...
Jim Beam > $20
Maker's Mark <> $35
Jack Daniel's < $40
Wild Turkey 86 < $40
Wild Turkey 101 < $50 (WAS!).
So, Enjoy.....
Geoff...
Patrick Di Justo
>
>Wild turkeys don't bear that much resemblance to domestic turkeys any
>more. Wild turkeys are smart and agile; domestic turkeys are
>unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty clumsy, as they've
>been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
Oh, no, not the "large breast size = indredibly stupid" meme again...
:-)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:20:41 GMT, jus...@well.com (Patrick Di Justo)
wrote:
<wonderingly> Do you know, I didn't see that coming? I obviously
need to have my brain overhauled.
Alter S. Reiss
On 22 Oct 1997, Graydon wrote:
> >>Bison are considerably hardier and smarter then cattle, and would
> >>outcompete them for alimited food supplyif humans were taken out of the
> >>picture.
> >
>
> They're interfertile. Same species.
Interfertile, yes. Same species, I believe there is some dispute.
>
> If the longhorn genes get into the bison population - and really, it's the
> other way around; many more longhorns than bison
Ah, but would there be that many more Longhorn than Bison after
the first few winters? And would bison herds and longhorn herds mix that
easily?
- you'd get some
> pliestocene long horned bison back,
No, you wouldn't. Maybe you'd get something that would look sort
of like long horned bison, but it would not be the same thing, by a long
sight.
or possibly something vaguely aurochs
> like, or maybe just bison with slightly larger horns. Hard to say.
Probably would depend greatly on the proportion of bison,
longhorn, and other bovine in the cross...
> >My point was just that there's enough stuff
> >under the snow that large vaguely bovine animals could survive winters
> >without being fed. Emma pointed out that bison have much larger
> >fat reserves than cattle, though, so even my original point probably
> >isn't valid.
>
> You'd get _some_ survivors and rapid selection; there aren't just herfords
> out there, there are longhorns, and wee highland cattle, and brahma bull
> herds, and heaven knows what else.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <62ut6u$ap5$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>,
Joseph Askew <jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Alter S. Reiss (asr...@ymail.yu.edu) wrote:
>
>: I find this to be an absolutely fascinating topic; if all the
>: works of man are destroyed by some catastrophy, there would still be
>: evidence of our passing in the fossil record, simply because of the way we
>: spread species across the planet.
>
>I wouldn't put it past 'em to claim a land bridge to Russia instead.
>After all we don't usually think of intelligent intervention when
>looking at problems. Well for some generous definitions of "we" now
>I know what the "yu" stands for.
>
I should think there'd be quite a bit of evidence that there'd been
an intelligent species in the fossil record. The next round of
scientists might be too quick to conclude intelligent intervention
instead of too slow.
>A guy down the road had some escape. For a couple of years the hills for
>miles around rang to peafowl noises But they didn't last. I think that
>some were shot. Hearing them in the early hours of the morning is damn
>annoying. I think I saw on TV once (a prime reference that) a small
>American town and/or suburb that has feral peafowl. The newer residents
>were demanding they be culled to reduce noise and mess. Some of the
>older residents wanted to keep them. Something like that anyway. Anyone
>else hear of it?
>
No, but I've read about a mid-western town that was (and probably
still is) plagued by escaped monkeys.
Robert Sneddon
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.971025...@acis.mc.yu.edu>
asr...@ymail.yu.edu "Alter S. Reiss" writes:
> Kinda makes me wonder what species would make it out of the Bronx
> Zoo to thrive. Anecdote: A certifiable loony kept a wide array of exotic
> animals in his house. When forced to leave, he let them all free. For
> the better part of a decade, Monsey, NY had a population of wild Peafowl.
> There is nothing more startling than going to a friend's suburban house,
> and being woken up by a Peacock strutting around in his driveway, sounding
> like something was strangling it. Anyhow.
There is a viable colony of wallabies on an island in the middle of
Lock Lomond in Scotland. They were part of a Highland estate's collection
which closed down in the 20's IIRC. Somebody didn't realise they could
swim...
--
To reply via email, remove the string "_nospam_" from my address.
Robert (nojay) Sneddon
Ian
buck...@unixg.ubc.ca (Tony Buckland) wrote:
_Underground_ in the Shield, however, would probably be the best place on
Earth. Underground on the moon would be better, though.
Joseph Askew
Alter S. Reiss (asr...@ymail.yu.edu) wrote:
: I find this to be an absolutely fascinating topic; if all the
: works of man are destroyed by some catastrophy, there would still be
: evidence of our passing in the fossil record, simply because of the way we
: spread species across the planet.
I think you under-estimate the ability of scientists to rationalise.
I wouldn't put it past 'em to claim a land bridge to Russia instead.
After all we don't usually think of intelligent intervention when
looking at problems. Well for some generous definitions of "we" now
I know what the "yu" stands for.
: Feral cats, yes, but what about feral
: lions? There are enough zoos, game farms, and private large animal
: collections to allow for a lion population in the US; and there was one up
: until recently, in geological terms.
Roy and Seigfried being responsible for the creation of a new species
of American tiger?
: They probably went extinct because
: they were out-competed by Smilodon, the Bear-Dogs, and because they
: couldn't catch up with pronghorns. Should be enough beef and deer to keep
: them going for a while...
Not to mention said Roy and Seigfreid. Who would need deer for a good
week? All those sheep, cows and horses too. On the other hand any
animal that spends a long time in Zoos might forget how to hunt. Or
never learn. I've seen zoos try to teach carnivores how to hunt prior
to re-introduction. A small flying fox-type thing is used. At odd
times lumps of meat are put on it and it is zipped across the cage.
Scary if you think the main users of flying foxes are small children.
Just tiger sized.
: Kinda makes me wonder what species would make it out of the Bronx
: Zoo to thrive. Anecdote: A certifiable loony kept a wide array of exotic
: animals in his house. When forced to leave, he let them all free. For
: the better part of a decade, Monsey, NY had a population of wild Peafowl.
: There is nothing more startling than going to a friend's suburban house,
: and being woken up by a Peacock strutting around in his driveway, sounding
: like something was strangling it. Anyhow.
A guy down the road had some escape. For a couple of years the hills for
miles around rang to peafowl noises But they didn't last. I think that
some were shot. Hearing them in the early hours of the morning is damn
annoying. I think I saw on TV once (a prime reference that) a small
American town and/or suburb that has feral peafowl. The newer residents
were demanding they be culled to reduce noise and mess. Some of the
older residents wanted to keep them. Something like that anyway. Anyone
else hear of it?
(and do you have to be a certifiable loony to keep peacocks or does
it just help? Hmmm, your loony, Michael Jackson, hey I'm seeing a
pattern here)
: The realy big scary animals would probably just die of starvation,
: though it is possible that given enough cause they might jump their moats.
I don't know about the US but most Australian zoos have gone over to
a shift system. They buy a big piece of land far away and fence it.
The animals are rotated from one to the other so at any time only a
fraction of the animals are in small cages. The others get to roam a
bit. So for some of them the problem is just a fence or two. Hunger
would drive them over in time I'ld think.
: Tropical animals would die when winter came, but the emu, wild horses,
: camels, and similiar beasts would have a good shot at making it...
Camels and emus aren't tropical animals? Well maybe not, but warm
weather animals anyway. You ought to see Central Australia. Where
the camels roam free.
: And what would happen in Australia, without humans keeping the
: numbers of rabbits and cats down? Off hand I'd guess complete ecological
: collapse, but it's possible that nature would compensate. Introduced game
We're keeping the number of rabbits and cats down? News to me! I
wouldn't thikn we would have a complete collapse. Nature is tougher
than that.
: fish would probably cause serious overpopulation problems in any number of
: waterways in the absence of anglers, and wind up pushing native species
: out entirely.
On the other hand the gradual collapse of dams and wiers would help
native species around here. The main introduced fish, the European
carp, isn't eaten by anyone much. Horrible fish. Anglers usually
their noses up at them. They willl take an unbaited hook.
João Luis
Mt. Rushmore is already decaying. It won't last half that long.
---- /// ----
I'm here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm fresh out of bubblegum.
Marcel Martin
In article <01bcdac8$7e4819a0$5a05...@mitchell.jersey.net>,
mitc...@jersey.net says...
> Doug Tricarico <tr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <62igid$8...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In <344c3a67...@news.gamewood.net> mike writes:
> > >
> > >On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:09:17 -0000, "Cypher" <cyp...@qnet.com> wrote:
> > >> So we have 6 billion dead human bodies and the entire
> > infastructure of the world still completely in place.
> > >>
> > >>How do the signs of our modern civilization stand the test of time?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>A) The first day
> > >>B) The first week
> > >>C) The first month
> > >>D) The first year
> > >>E) The first decade
> > >>F) The first century
> > >>The first milenium, eon, a million years, ten million, etc.
>
> > <lots of good stuff snipped>
>
> I agree with all the ideas except for a few minor details:
>
> All of our cities would be destroyed within the year. We build everything
> way to close together, if you've ever left a pot roast in the oven, or an
> iron on I'm sure you can see the logical conclusion... millions of fire
> hazards across the world. And if you let a fire go in any of our major
> cities the city will burn down. On top of these immediate fire hazards,
> you would have lightning strikes, etc... to contend with. Any city of more
> than a hundred thousand people will probably burn down within the month.
> Smaller towns & cities will be heavily scarred by the fires.
While I agree that most cities would disintegrate very fast, I would
expect most nuclear power plants to meltdown in a very shortly after
regular maintenance stopped occurring. Some radiation is bound to escape,
and large contaminated areas are practically guaranteed. Areas close to
chemical plants are also bound to be highly polluted after the plants
start to wear out and the chemicals start to leak out.
--
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservatives. - John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
Patrick Di Justo
On 21 Oct 1997 15:09:01 GMT, tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico)
wrote:
>Pigs will be the big-time survivors. Pigs are astoundingly tough and
>incredibly smart. More people are eaten by pigs every year than struck
>by lightning.
I find that last sentence fascinating and hilarious. Can you tell us
how this happens? What will turn an every day garden pig into a
serial killer?
Alter S. Reiss
On 26 Oct 1997, Joseph Askew wrote:
> Alter S. Reiss (asr...@ymail.yu.edu) wrote:
>
> : I find this to be an absolutely fascinating topic; if all the
> : works of man are destroyed by some catastrophy, there would still be
> : evidence of our passing in the fossil record, simply because of the way we
> : spread species across the planet.
>
> I think you under-estimate the ability of scientists to rationalise.
> I wouldn't put it past 'em to claim a land bridge to Russia instead.
> After all we don't usually think of intelligent intervention when
> looking at problems.
Given the sort of disturbances we've achieved, it would be kind of
hard to propose an alternate hypothesis. A fair sized mass extinction,
not correlated with any catastrophic disaster, combined with a spreading
of hundreds of species to habitats they never came within a thousand miles
of. A land bridge to Russia, sure, but a land bridge between Europe and
Australia?
> Well for some generous definitions of "we" now
> I know what the "yu" stands for.
Ah, erhm, heh, well, Yeshiva University, if you actualy wanted to
know...
> : Feral cats, yes, but what about feral lions?
>
> Roy and Seigfried being responsible for the creation of a new species
> of American tiger?
And why not? The area arround Vegas probably isn't ideal for
tigers, but the East Cost, or the Olympic Peninsula... Why not?
> : couldn't catch up with pronghorns. Should be enough beef and deer to keep
> : them going for a while...
>
> Not to mention said Roy and Seigfreid. Who would need deer for a good
> week? All those sheep, cows and horses too. On the other hand any
> animal that spends a long time in Zoos might forget how to hunt. Or
> never learn. I've seen zoos try to teach carnivores how to hunt prior
> to re-introduction. A small flying fox-type thing is used. At odd
> times lumps of meat are put on it and it is zipped across the cage.
True, but cats and dogs go feral easily enough; I suppose it's a
question of natural inclination, avaliability of slow and stupid prey
until they get their technique down, and a relative lack of competition,
all of which could be supplied by the destruction of civilization...
> Scary if you think the main users of flying foxes are small children.
> Just tiger sized.
And just what do children use flying foxes for? I suppose they
could provide an entertaining alternative to kites, but...
> : Tropical animals would die when winter came, but the emu, wild horses,
> : camels, and similiar beasts would have a good shot at making it...
>
> Camels and emus aren't tropical animals? Well maybe not, but warm
> weather animals anyway. You ought to see Central Australia. Where
> the camels roam free.
Well, Bactrian camels live in rather frigid conditions, I believe.
Still, I suppose that I was a bit impresise. Animals requiring a year
round tropical or near tropical climate. I know that emus don't, because
when I was at the Bronx Zoo last winter (I always go to the zoo during the
winter. It's empty, the animals are glad to see you, and the bear and
buffalo actualy move! Sometimes.), and the emus were in an outdoor
enclosure, rooting about in the snow.
> : And what would happen in Australia, without humans keeping the
> : numbers of rabbits and cats down? Off hand I'd guess complete ecological
> : collapse, but it's possible that nature would compensate. Introduced game
>
> We're keeping the number of rabbits and cats down? News to me! I
> wouldn't thikn we would have a complete collapse. Nature is tougher
> than that.
Well, you certainly are giving it a good try, what with
introducing diseases, poisons, and the occasional mass slaughter with
firearms. Look at it this way; things could be alot worse.
And I may exagerate a bit with ecological collapse, but the
continent would lose a great deal of variety, in all probability. Rabbits
and sheep as the primary grazers, with dogs and cats as carnivores, until
speciation starts to vary things.
> : fish would probably cause serious overpopulation problems in any number of
> On the other hand the gradual collapse of dams and wiers would help
> native species around here. The main introduced fish, the European
> carp, isn't eaten by anyone much. Horrible fish. Anglers usually
> their noses up at them. They willl take an unbaited hook.
Well, they put up almost as good a fight as, well, an inanimate
object of the same size and weight as the fish in question...
pat smart
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote in message <3452b45d...@news.clark.net>...
>On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:20:41 GMT, jus...@well.com (Patrick Di Justo)
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:04:16 GMT, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
>>Watt-Evans) wrote:
>>>domestic turkeys are unbelievably, mind-bogglingly stupid, and pretty
clumsy,
>>> as they've been bred for three hundred years entirely for breast size.
>>
>>Oh, no, not the "large breast size = indredibly stupid" meme again...
>>:-)
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that large breast size can make us men
incredibly stupid?
PS
Ian
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>How long would "non-biodegradable" plastic objects last?
Generally on the order of 20,000 years, assuming some environmental
conditions which I forget.
Ian
btg...@rmplc.co.uk (I. T. Manager) wrote:
>Steve Brinich <ste...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
>> The fact that people have bred for intelligence in working animals,
>> and sometimes pets, might give them a bit of a head start. The idea
>> of a feline civilization discovering the relics of the Great Old Ones
>> does have a certain charm....
>
>It's been done, I think by Andre Norton. The humans have abandoned a
>planet, and the story covers an evolved feline entering an old human
>complex. Title anybody?
Improbable, though - cats are carnivorous, not particularly social, not
really all that intelligent, and definitely not bipedal tool-users or likely
to become said.
The most likely "successor species" would be evolved from a species similar
to the ones which gave rise to humans - some form of monkey, ape, gorilla,
etc. They already have one of the highest nonhuman intelligences in the
world, they have useful hands, and they're all capable of being bipedal for
periods of time. IOW, we get planet of the apes, not planet of the cats.
Cypher
As a side note to this discusion, are there any known cases of
wild, meaning not under human control, monkeys living
in cities? Is seems that certain small species of monkey
could do very well living in highly urbanized areas.
They could climb buildings, eat rats and shrubbery, even live
in the sewers possibly.
With a fall of civilization scenario I could see certian Asian
and Afrikan cities being populated by monkeys atleast until
the buildings begin to crumble.
Larry Caldwell
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.971025...@acis.mc.yu.edu>,
"Alter S. Reiss" <asr...@ymail.yu.edu> wrote:
> Speaking of which, how many ostrich farms are there out in the midwest?
> Would they have a chance?
While treading the wilds of western Oregon this fall I encountered an
enclave of Emu, not apparently attached to any enclosed piece of land.
I'm keeping their location secret. The local coyotes deserve something
that will make their lives miserable. :)
-- Larry
Nyrath the nearly wise
> btg...@rmplc.co.uk (I. T. Manager) wrote:
>
> >It's been done, I think by Andre Norton. The humans have abandoned a
> >planet, and the story covers an evolved feline entering an old human
> >complex. Title anybody?
BREED TO COME by Andre Norton
Leonard Erickson
mike writes:
>Steve Brinich <ste...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
>> The fact that people have bred for intelligence in working animals,
>> and sometimes pets, might give them a bit of a head start. The idea
>> of a feline civilization discovering the relics of the Great Old Ones
>> does have a certain charm....
>
>It's been done, I think by Andre Norton. The humans have abandoned a
>planet, and the story covers an evolved feline entering an old human
>complex. Title anybody?
"The Breed to Come"
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
sha...@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leo...@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Leonard Erickson
jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
> : Tropical animals would die when winter came, but the emu, wild horses,
> : camels, and similiar beasts would have a good shot at making it...
>
> Camels and emus aren't tropical animals? Well maybe not, but warm
> weather animals anyway. You ought to see Central Australia. Where
> the camels roam free.
Camels were native to North America. They may have been one of the
species wiped out when humans arrived. Also, the US Army had a "Camel
Corps" in the 1800s in the southwest. A number of camels escaped and
they survived for many years. While the Southwest may be warm in the
summer, those deserts get *cold* at night, and it *does* snow in the
winter!
Camels are not *just* a "warm/hot climate" animal.
Leonard Erickson
nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
> Even though the roads wouldn't last as roads, wouldn't the plants
> growing above them be different from the other plants nearby?
It'll take quite a while for either asphalt or concrete road surfaces
to go away. They may have a lot of crack and dips/rises from frost and
the like, but except in places where streams can wash them out they
will be *very* persistent. Just check out stretches of "abandoned"
road, or ever abandoned runways at old airbases.
I suspect that most will (eventually) be covered by dirt spreading from
the edges. But until it is a few feet deep, it *will* have a noticeable
effect. We've got a park here in Portland that was created by dumping
dirt on top of an old freeway. Quite a few feet of dirt. Even so, the
drainage has been so *lousy* (turns into a close approach to a swamp
after heavy rains) that they dug up much of it and trucked in tons of
sand. It's helped a little.
So I'd say that most plants growing over an old road sirface will
either have to have shallow roots, or be lucky enough to find a usable
crack in the surface. They'll also have to tolerate extremes of
moisture (saturated soil after rains, no access to deep water during
hot spells).
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <971027.013839...@krypton.rain.com>,
Leonard Erickson <sha...@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
>jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>> Camels and emus aren't tropical animals? Well maybe not, but warm
>> weather animals anyway. You ought to see Central Australia. Where
>> the camels roam free.
>
>Camels were native to North America. They may have been one of the
>species wiped out when humans arrived. Also, the US Army had a "Camel
>Corps" in the 1800s in the southwest. A number of camels escaped and
>they survived for many years. While the Southwest may be warm in the
>summer, those deserts get *cold* at night, and it *does* snow in the
>winter!
>
>Camels are not *just* a "warm/hot climate" animal.
>
Don't a lot of deserts get very cold at night?
David Mitchell
João Luis <nop1...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote in article
<34533b4f...@news.telepac.pt>...
> On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:37:03 -0500, arir...@geocities.com (Ari
> Rabkin) wrote:
> >In article <3450eb29...@news.telepac.pt>, nop1...@mail.telepac.pt
> >(João Luis) wrote:
> >> Think of the piramids. 4000 years and still standing. I wonder if any
> >> of our "wonders" will last that long?
> >
> > Mt. Rushmore?
>
And the sphinx is now believed to be over 7,000 years old due to the severe
amount of rain erosion damage on it's surface. As builders we still have a
lot to learn.
--------------------------
David Mitchell
http://www.jersey.net/~mitchell
mitc...@jersey.net
David Mitchell
Ian <iadm...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in article
<345a23af....@news.uwaterloo.ca>...
> >
> >> The fact that people have bred for intelligence in working animals,
> >> and sometimes pets, might give them a bit of a head start. The idea
> >> of a feline civilization discovering the relics of the Great Old Ones
> >> does have a certain charm....
>
> Improbable, though - cats are carnivorous, not particularly social, not
> really all that intelligent, and definitely not bipedal tool-users or
likely
> to become said.
>
> The most likely "successor species" would be evolved from a species
similar
> to the ones which gave rise to humans - some form of monkey, ape,
gorilla,
> etc. They already have one of the highest nonhuman intelligences in the
> world, they have useful hands, and they're all capable of being bipedal
for
> periods of time. IOW, we get planet of the apes, not planet of the cats.
I can't believe both the lack of immagination and the human egocentrism in
this posting. There is no legitimate reason why intelligence and tool
using abilities are the sole domain of bipedial creatures. Octopus for
example have shown a great degree of intelligence, they can learn from
others, solve puzzles, etc... That by itself kind of blows your whole
"apes or bust" theory. And for whatever it is worth I doubt if apes could
ever develop our level of intelligence since all [that i am aware of] are
herbivores. It is just easier for egocentric individuals to recognize and
accept intelligence in something that looks more like us.
I realize that our generation is spoiled by the absolute lack of
imagination of the star trek genre, but rest assured if we ever encounter
intelligent beings in the universe they most definitely will not look like
us. And hopefully our egocentrism will not force us to accept only racial
genocide or slavery due to our obstinate refusal to accept them as being
our equals. Come to think of it, I hope we don't encounter some tentacled
creatures that feel the same way about us...
As for cats, they are fairly intelligent considering they have been
domesticated. They are also incredibly social. Why not try and catch a
discovery special on cat behavior some day. It may surprise you.
David Mitchell
Robert Sneddon <nojay@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<877861013snz@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk>...
> There is a viable colony of wallabies on an island in the middle of
> Lock Lomond in Scotland. They were part of a Highland estate's collection
> which closed down in the 20's IIRC. Somebody didn't realise they could
> swim...
Kind of reminds me of that Jurassic Park book...
<david shivers>
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On 27 Oct 1997 14:48:58 GMT, "David Mitchell" <mitc...@jersey.net>
wrote:
> And for whatever it is worth I doubt if apes could
>ever develop our level of intelligence since all [that i am aware of] are
>herbivores.
Chimpanzees are omnivores -- they eat a LOT of insects, and like meat
very much when they can get it. It'd be easy for them to evolve
intelligence; their ancestors already did it once, and they're already
among the half-dozen most intelligent species on Earth.
I thought baboons were also omnivorous but am not certain of it.
Doug Tricarico
In <0C7T00O5...@teleport.com> lar...@teleport.com (Larry
Caldwell) writes:
>
>In article <62nnnb$r...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico) wrote:
>
>> Aussies are high-energy, extremely smart dogs that love to work. I
>> think the breed is wonderful with few of the health problems
>> displayed
>> in many other breeds. (Although this is likely to change with the
>> increase in their popularity and recent AKC recognition.) Due to
>> their
>> high exercise needs, Aussies are _not_ a breed for everyone and make
>> bad apartment dwellers.
>
>I'm sorry to hear about the AKC news. The Border Collie Association
>filed suit a couple years ago to prevent AKC recognition of the breed,
>which protects at least one breed of working dogs from ruin.
>
>I've always thought that the best thing the Humane Society could do
>for dogs would be to euthanize AKC members, though they really deserve
>a much longer and more painful death that includes shattered hips and
>blindness.
>
>-- Larry
Agreed. My friend was bragging about the pedigree of his AKC
registered Brittany. Turns out she's dumb as a box of rocks and hasn't
been allowed to run since she was a puppy because of severe hip
dysplasia. A dog that can't run is like a bird in a cage.
On the other hand, responsible breeders and owners can improve their
lines by having every dog OFA certified and participating in either
agility or working competition so that the dogs remain healthy as well
as pretty.
I'd never buy a dog from a pet store, since those puppies are raised,
by and large, by puppy mills which mistreat the dogs cruelly. Baby
cows used for veal are better treated than pet store puppies.
Doug
Doug Tricarico
In <62r1va$e...@camel12.mindspring.com> ji...@pipeline.com (Jim
Partridge) writes:
>
>lar...@teleport.com (Larry Caldwell) wrote:
>
>>In article <87750612...@wagasa.cts.com>,
>>k...@king.cts.com (Keith Thompson) wrote:
>
>>> Hoover Dam
>>> remains essentially intact until it's washed away by the floods at
the
>>> end of the next ice age.
>
>>I don't know about Hoover (or even where it is) but the Grand Coulee,
several
>>times more massive than the Great Pyramid, was planned for a 100 year
life
>>span, and it's over halfway through that. Rivers erode things, even
large
>>hunks of concrete. Dams won't last long.
>
>In _Cadillac Desert_, the author (I'm spacing on the name -- Peter
>something?) postulates that the great dams will be the only thing left
>thousands or even millions of years from now -- except they'll be
>waterfalls, having silted up to the brim. This process begins as soon
>as the dam begins operations.
>
>CD, btw, is an excellent eye-opener on water use and mis-use in the
>western US. (Why, frex, do we grow *RICE* in California when we are,
>at best, a semi-desert?) It makes you understand the old western
>saying, "Whisky's for drinking. Water's for fighting."
>
>Jim.
Even stranger, why is water in Los Angeles cheaper than in Cincinnati?
It actually falls from the sky, here.
I daresay that any massive structure built of stone will be the last
thing to remain of civilization. Sure the pyraminds are still around
thousands of years after being built, but they're basically reorganized
mountains or rock. Really big dams and the Great Wall of China would
hang for a few millenia before succumbing to climatological ravages.
Doug
Tara K. Harper
On 27 Oct 1997 09:40:24 -0500, nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy
Lebovitz) wrote:
> >
> Don't a lot of deserts get very cold at night?
I've had ice in my kayak in the morning, when the
afternoon temp has been 80-90's.
Deserts do odd things with temperatures and
light. A couple summers, I wandered around in the
canyons in Central Oregon's desert, climbing and
hiking. I could spend eight or ten hours down there,
in full sunlight in midsummer, without getting a sunburn
--or even show much of a tan. But twenty minutes up
top, on the mesas, and I'd have a full sunburn going
strong. I could shoot 200 to 400 ASA in the canyons,
but I had to shoot 25 to 100ASA up top because of
the excessive light.
Regards,
tkh
--
Tara K. Harper
PO Box 23-0107; Tigard, OR 97281-0107
URL: http://www.teleport.com/~until/tkh.htm
e-mail: until_don...@teleport.com
WARNING: spam-blocker in address!
To Reply: remove "_dontsendjunk" from address
Doug Tricarico
In <62uv9t$6...@universe.digex.net> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy
>>American town and/or suburb that has feral peafowl. The newer
>>residents were demanding they be culled to reduce noise and mess.
>>Some of the older residents wanted to keep them. Something like
>>that anyway. Anyone else hear of it?
>>
>
>still is) plagued by escaped monkeys.
This is in Florida, I believe. It was in the papers again recently.
Some monkeys released as part of a research project have destroyed the
ecosystems of a couple of Keys while filling the air with their, er,
"unique" odor.
Doug
Patrick Di Justo
>>I find that last sentence fascinating and hilarious. Can you tell us
>>how this happens? What will turn an every day garden pig into a
>>serial killer?
>
>They don't become serial killers, though, because any pig that does
>manage to kill and eat someone (and it DOES happen surprisingly often)
>winds up as ham and bacon fairly quickly.
So, as Hamlet philosophized, one may eat of a pig that hath eaten of a
human? Ewwww :-)
But seriously, I don't know much about pigs. Is there anywhere we can
get numbers for these occurrences? Do five people get eaten per year?
One hundred?
Andrew Plotkin
David Mitchell (mitc...@jersey.net) wrote:
> > >> Think of the piramids. 4000 years and still standing. I wonder if any
> > >> of our "wonders" will last that long?
> > >
> > > Mt. Rushmore?
> >
> > Mt. Rushmore is already decaying. It won't last half that long.
> And the sphinx is now believed to be over 7,000 years old due to the severe
> amount of rain erosion damage on it's surface. As builders we still have a
> lot to learn.
That's a pretty self-deprecating attitude. The pyramids are still standing
because they're BIG HONKING PILES OF STONE in a desert climate. We *know*
how to do that. We don't *do* it much these days because the interior
floorspace is tiny and it's really, really hard to rig the plumbing.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Doug Tricarico
In <3458b96d...@news.clark.net> lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
Watt-Evans) writes:
>
>On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:54:38 GMT, jus...@well.com (Patrick Di Justo)
>wrote:
>
>>On 21 Oct 1997 15:09:01 GMT, tr...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Tricarico)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Pigs will be the big-time survivors. Pigs are astoundingly tough
and
>>>incredibly smart. More people are eaten by pigs every year than
struck
>>>by lightning.
>>
>>how this happens? What will turn an every day garden pig into a
>>serial killer?
>
>critters.
>
>They don't become serial killers, though, because any pig that does
>manage to kill and eat someone (and it DOES happen surprisingly often)
>winds up as ham and bacon fairly quickly.
Pigs are huge, too. They scare the hell out of me.
We butcher hogs every year (hogs and pigs are interchangeably used) and
I can safely state that I would never want to meet one in the wild.
They run faster than you can, and I've seen a pig take 13 rounds
between the eyes before dying.
Doug
aRJay
>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:52:36 +0000, btg...@rmplc.co.uk (I. T. Manager)
>wrote:
>
>>Steve Brinich <ste...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The fact that people have bred for intelligence in working animals,
>>> and sometimes pets, might give them a bit of a head start. The idea
>>> of a feline civilization discovering the relics of the Great Old Ones
>>> does have a certain charm....
>>
>>planet, and the story covers an evolved feline entering an old human
>>complex. Title anybody?
>>
>>'ric
Breed to Come there are also evolved rats living in the complex.
--
aRJay
Joshua Jasper
In article <34545275...@news.interport.net>,
Patrick Di Justo <jus...@well.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:56:38 GMT, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
>Watt-Evans) wrote:
>
>>>how this happens? What will turn an every day garden pig into a
>>>serial killer?
>>
>>manage to kill and eat someone (and it DOES happen surprisingly often)
>>winds up as ham and bacon fairly quickly.
>
>human? Ewwww :-)
>
>But seriously, I don't know much about pigs. Is there anywhere we can
>get numbers for these occurrences? Do five people get eaten per year?
>One hundred?
Ive heard somewhere that the number one animal predator/killer of
man is the sea crocodile. Dunno if it's true, though. Anyone else got
stats on the animal with the largest number of fatal attacks on people?
Sinboy
Thomas Womack
Andrew Plotkin wrote in message ...
>David Mitchell (mitc...@jersey.net) wrote:
>> > >> Think of the piramids. 4000 years and still standing. I wonder if
any
>> > >> of our "wonders" will last that long?
>> > >
>> > > Mt. Rushmore?
>> >
>> > Mt. Rushmore is already decaying. It won't last half that long.
>
>> And the sphinx is now believed to be over 7,000 years old due to the
severe
>> amount of rain erosion damage on it's surface. As builders we still have
a
>> lot to learn.
>
>That's a pretty self-deprecating attitude. The pyramids are still standing
>because they're BIG HONKING PILES OF STONE in a desert climate. We *know*
>how to do that. We don't *do* it much these days because the interior
>floorspace is tiny and it's really, really hard to rig the plumbing.
How would you build something to last? By 'last', I mean 'still be usable
after megayears have passed, ice ages have come and gone, substantial
subduction has occured ...'.
Location is important - trivially, put it on the front side of the Moon and
draw a bullseye round it in hundred-kilometre-wide rings of carbon black to
ensure that people would find it, but that involves hefty transport costs.
Clarke had radio beacons powered by the decay of long-lived radioisotopes,
which have the advantage that you could seal them in inch-thick iridium and
have them immune to most insults of nature, but which can't really be built
in very great sizes.
Could you build something which would survive subduction, without using Doc
Smith-style Zones of Force?
Tom
Jeff Suzuki
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
: As for the longer term, are there any theories about whether the
: whole present surface of the earth likely to eventually be subducted?
There are, essentially, two types of continental plates: oceanic (primarily
basalt, formed at rifts, e.g., the MidAtlantic) and continental (all the
others). Thus, there are three cases when plates collide (hmmm, this would
make an interesting title for a scifi movie...):
1) Oceanic meets oceanic
2) Oceanic meets continental
3) Continental meets continental
In case #1 (an easy example of which escapes me), one of the plates is
subducted. In case #2 (anywhere along the Ring of Fire, essentially) the
oceanic plate is subducted and the continental plate undergoes an orogenic
era.
Case #3 is the interesting one; neither plate subducts very well. The margin
crumples, and both plates are thrust upwards. The best current example is
where the Indian subcontinent is being pushed into Asia, forming the
Himilayas.
Of course, in any case, the plate that remains "on top" is subject to
weathering, and will eventually get ground down to nothing (e.g., Canadian
shield).
To answer the implied question: _eventually_ all the surface of the Earth is
no longer on the surface; whether it ends up in the oceans (as erosion
deposits) or whether it ends up below the crust (as subducted plates), it
doesn't stay.
Jeffs
Jeff Suzuki
: ji...@pipeline.com (Jim Partridge) writes:
: > In _Cadillac Desert_, the author (I'm spacing on the name -- Peter
: > something?) postulates that the great dams will be the only thing left
: > thousands or even millions of years from now -- except they'll be
: > waterfalls, having silted up to the brim. This process begins as soon
: > as the dam begins operations.
Seems unlikely. Just read Scientific American the other day, which mentions
that the Aswan Dam is "dangerously" unstable (i.e., within the next century,
you can expect a major disaster). Has something to do with the water behind
the dam seeping into the subsurface strata, making seismic disturbances more
likely.
Jeffs
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:39:00 GMT, jus...@well.com (Patrick Di Justo)
wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:56:38 GMT, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
>Watt-Evans) wrote:
>
>>>I find that last sentence fascinating and hilarious. Can you tell us
>>>how this happens? What will turn an every day garden pig into a
>>>serial killer?
>>
>>They don't become serial killers, though, because any pig that does
>>manage to kill and eat someone (and it DOES happen surprisingly often)
>>winds up as ham and bacon fairly quickly.
>
>So, as Hamlet philosophized, one may eat of a pig that hath eaten of a
>human? Ewwww :-)
>
>But seriously, I don't know much about pigs. Is there anywhere we can
>get numbers for these occurrences? Do five people get eaten per year?
>One hundred?
I dunno; when I lived in pig-farming country (eastern Kentucky), I
heard about two incidents in the area (roughly five counties) in human
memory (roughly forty years), and one of the two reports was not
entirely reliable. I have no idea where you'd find real numbers.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether being struck by
lightning really is less common. They're both pretty rare.