Matrix Revolutions questions that should have been answered (SPOILERS)

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Lurkerman

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Nov 6, 2003, 2:40:47 AM11/6/03
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BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD

I've now seen Matrix Revolutions after much anticipation. After all
the philosophicical and implied possibilites from the earlier Matrix
Reloaded, I have to say that I feel pretty let down by the
"conclusion" (or lack thereof) in Revolutions. I still have some
fundamental consistency and closure questions that I think the
Waschowskis should have answered for their viewers. Maybe some of you
can add some insight that I just didn't see in Revolutions...

1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
when fighting them off in Revolutions.

3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
this.

4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
with humans?

7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
missed.

Thanks,
Lurkerman

Esa Perkio

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Nov 6, 2003, 3:32:24 AM11/6/03
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SPOILER WARNING


In rec.arts.sf.movies Lurkerman <lurke...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory


: serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
: see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

True. Never properly explained. This was referred to as something inherent
with contact with the Source. Short range WLAN with the implants? A new
kind of technology entirely? (Might be consistent with whatever it is that
makes humans a power source (which is thermodynamically ridiculous).) PSI
and harvesting PSI? No idea.

Neo might have been plugged in to the chair for diagnostics?

: 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in


: Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
: when fighting them off in Revolutions.

New ability, relying on walking the border between realms. A step in the
wrong direction the first time?

: 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real


: world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
: this.

The power went unexplained. In the approach to Machine City it wasn't EMP,
it seemed more like a order to self-destruct. (Which is conceivable, if
the Chosen has a status in the machine hierarchy, which, we've been told,
can be brutal.)

: 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance


: to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

Does he need to have any?

: 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the


: Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

Or the train man, for that matter..

: 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
: with humans?

Why does anyone want peace? Dissent within machine ranks, maybe.

: 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any


: possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
: anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

It could just be the way they are, the way their culture works. The
Architect, when asked for a promise to keep the implied deal says
something like "What do you think I am? Human?" which seemed to me to say
that the very idea of not keeping a deal was filthy and alien.

: 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

: And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

The way I saw it was that Smith would have won in the end, if he had taken
the time to take perfect control of the Matrix before gradually subverting
Machine City. The Deus ex Machina used Neo as a bait and got Smith to
unknowingly attack Machine City directly. With the contact ("smithed" Neo)
formed, the full might of the City struck the joined Smiths. Neo lost and
Deus ex Machina (how appropriate) saved him.


--
Esa Perkiö

mzmeryze

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Nov 6, 2003, 4:04:20 AM11/6/03
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On 5 Nov 2003 23:40:47 -0800, lurke...@hotmail.com (Lurkerman)
wrote:

>BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>
>I've now seen Matrix Revolutions after much anticipation. After all
>the philosophicical and implied possibilites from the earlier Matrix
>Reloaded, I have to say that I feel pretty let down by the
>"conclusion" (or lack thereof) in Revolutions. I still have some
>fundamental consistency and closure questions that I think the
>Waschowskis should have answered for their viewers. Maybe some of you
>can add some insight that I just didn't see in Revolutions...
>
>1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
>serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
>see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?


>
>2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
>Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels?

Because he wasn't attuned to his powers. He should have died the first
time.


>3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
>world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
>this.

According to the Oracle, his powers are meant to stretch from the
machine world to the real world.

>
>4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
>to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

Without the Merovingian, we wouldn't have Neo. Without Persie, we
don't have those wonderful breasts. And here I thought *she* was the
mother of the Matrix.

>
>5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
>Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

They didn't trap him on purpose. I believe it occured by accident when
he stopped those Sentinels in the real world. Hence, the train man had
no idea why he was there.

>
>6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
>with humans?

She never said she wanted peace, but just for the war to end.

>
>7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
>possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
>anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

Computers don't think like humans? I have no idea.

>
>8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

Oracle (who Smith overwritten) plus Neo equals destruction of Smiths.

Or... Smith takes over Neo's body and now the main machine can now use
Neo to send out an explosive electrical pulse, destroying all the
Smiths.

>And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

Something about Smith's speech in the pit about his purpose being not
needed after Neo is dead. I have to see this movie again.


Anders Pihl Knudsen

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Nov 6, 2003, 4:08:37 AM11/6/03
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"Lurkerman" <lurke...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse >

> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

As discussed in another thread, my (and sombody elses) guess is, that the
Merv is the first "The One" who failed its mission. Merv might have chosen
exile and now hangs on to his great power. Any change to the Matrix - forced
by Neo - will result in destruction of the Mervs "power base". Thus all
kinds of changes is an enemy to him - which includes Neo.

> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

Because they are machines and not human. Dishonesty is after all a human
property.


> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

My guess is, that Neo in fact lost the battle against Smith. But through
Neo's body the machines are able to send thounds of "volts" through the
computer causing break down to all programmes. The big question then is:
"why didn't the machines "burn the matrix" much earlier?
>
Regards

Anders


Timothy A. Roy

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Nov 6, 2003, 5:03:08 AM11/6/03
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> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (I.e., why keep any

> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

>>Because they are machines and not human. Dishonesty is after all a human
property.

In the train station after that speech about love between Neo and the Indian
being only a human emotion but the machines can act on it since there
actions and connections are similar to the emotion. The arcitecht could
therefor be dishonet if he wanted to.


Psychobudgie

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Nov 6, 2003, 5:38:27 AM11/6/03
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mzmeryze wrote:

>
>>8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
>
>
> Oracle (who Smith overwritten) plus Neo equals destruction of Smiths.
>
> Or... Smith takes over Neo's body and now the main machine can now use
> Neo to send out an explosive electrical pulse, destroying all the
> Smiths.
>
>
>>And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
>
>
> Something about Smith's speech in the pit about his purpose being not
> needed after Neo is dead. I have to see this movie again.

The Smith program exists to balance out the One within the equation, so
without Neo he is not required. I also wasn't sure but was it implied
that Neo was infact a machine within a human shell? Would explain his
ability to transend worlds.

--
Regards,

Psychobudgie
http://www.psychobudgie.com

This must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays. -
Douglas Adams

Jason

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Nov 6, 2003, 6:47:52 AM11/6/03
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Merv was NOT the first One. No. He is simply a man who resists change,
who resists progress in order to hold on to his power and he is surrounded
by antiquated programs, ghosts and vampires who feel the same way. The
other Ones were all Neo too. That's what the Oracle was alluding to at
the end.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Julie d'Aubigny

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Nov 6, 2003, 7:43:41 AM11/6/03
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Lurkerman wrote:
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> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
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> 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
> serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
> see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

Probably because he doesn't know how to get himself out of the Matrix in
the same way he accidentally got himself in.



> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
> when fighting them off in Revolutions.

He'd never done that trick before, and the result was a bit strange. The
second time, he had a bit more control.



> 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
> world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
> this.

He's somehow linked to the Source, and can sense it.



> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

The Merovingian is incidental in the third movie. He was a brief
obstacle. Persephone is there because she's the Merovingian's wife.



> 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

Trainman is the Merovingian's smuggler of things moving between the
machine world and the Matrix. This is explained in the first scene.



> 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> with humans?

She's there to unbalance the equation.

> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

They agreed not to destroy it. Apparently, the Architect keeps his word.



> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

When Smith assimilates Neo, the Architect uploads the Source into Neo,
rebooting the Matrix and writing Smith out of it. The new Matrix is
designed to account for Neo and Smith both.



> I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
> relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
> came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
> series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
> missed.

Try watching a second time?

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.ma...@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

Anders Pihl Knudsen

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Nov 6, 2003, 7:58:19 AM11/6/03
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"Jason" <email...@email.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:oprx7sdn...@news.email.com...

>
> Merv was NOT the first One. No. He is simply a man who resists change,
> who resists progress in order to hold on to his power and he is surrounded
> by antiquated programs, ghosts and vampires who feel the same way. The
> other Ones were all Neo too. That's what the Oracle was alluding to at
> the end.

That's an interesting point...but if true, the *purpose* of the Merv seems
disappear, making his precense in the movie unimportant. Which again raises
the need for more time spent on tellings his story.

Regards

Anders

Justin Bacon

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Nov 6, 2003, 9:12:01 AM11/6/03
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Lurkerman wrote:
>1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now?

Like most of the technical specifications, this is not given great rigor
(because the rigor is not required for the story). Speculation: He's tapping
into a wireless network, which he's able to access now because his
near-encounter with the Source gave him a greater insight into the machine
world.

>And, if memory
>serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
>see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

That felt like a scene of exposition got cut. I think they jacked his body in
specifically to try jacking him back out.

>2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
>Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
>when fighting them off in Revolutions.

The Oracle says that he wasn't ready to do that, yet. Presumably by the time
he's using the trick again in Revolutions, he is ready.

>3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
>world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
>this.

For the same reason that he can wirelessly access the Matrix: Greater insight
into the machine world. (Again, whatever technical specifications that insight
is taking advantage of is left unspecified.)

>4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
>to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

Well, in the second film his motivation becomes clear only after the final
revelation: He isn't just being a PITA, he's specifically attempting to stop
Neo from rebooting the Matrix. In the thrid film, he does appear to be nothing
more than a plot point wrapping itself up.

>5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
>Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

He didn't trap Neo. That's just where Neo ended up. Based on what the Oracle
says, my guess woudl be that Neo accessed the machine world prematuerly when he
took out the sentinels at the end of the second film. His mind wasn't ready for
it, though, and he instinctually fled to the familiarity of the Matrix -- and,
specifically, he ended up unintentionally crashing the Merovingian's secret
access.

>6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
>with humans?

Her purpose is to unbalance the equation; to introduce instability into the
system. Or, possibly, she just likes humans.

>7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
>possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
>anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

There's no reason to assume that the machines aren't honorable. Also,
symbolically, Neo showed them another way. And, finally, given the context of
the Animatrix, it may be a major revelation for the machines that a human would
desire *peace*.

>8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

Neo is, in essence, offering himself up as a worm virus. Smith tries to bring
him into the Smith Network, but once inside Neo has effectively pierced Smith's
security and can delete him.

(And, no, Neo could not have done the same thing in the second movie when Smith
tried to take him over. He wasn't ready, yet.)

>And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

Well, the Oracle manipulates events to get one line through to him: "Everything
which has a beginning, has an end." Smith got his beginnig when Neo merged with
him at the end of the first film. The line may have given Neo the insight he
needed, along with his insight into the machine world, to know what he had to
do.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Justin Bacon

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Nov 6, 2003, 9:19:54 AM11/6/03
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Anders Phil Knudsen wrote:
>That's an interesting point...but if true, the *purpose* of the Merv seems
>disappear, making his precense in the movie unimportant.

What do you mean? He's a major antagonist in the second film and a minor
antagonist in the third. His organization is the first indication that there
have been multiple iterations of the Matrix. He provides an important side to
the themes of free will and determination, and his organization serves as a
means to highlight the order of the machine world in the third film.

What other "purpose" did you want him to have?

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Rasta Robert

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Nov 6, 2003, 9:34:11 AM11/6/03
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On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:08:37 +0100, "Anders Pihl Knudsen"
<lise_ander...@post.tele.dk> wrote in alt.movies.the-matrix:

>
>My guess is, that Neo in fact lost the battle against Smith. But through
>Neo's body the machines are able to send thounds of "volts" through the
>computer causing break down to all programmes. The big question then is:
>"why didn't the machines "burn the matrix" much earlier?

My geuss is that, like the oracle explained, Smith has become the
negative, the shadow of Neo, so I take it is a bit like matter and anti-
matter. At the moment Neo 'surrenders' to be assimilated by Smith,
the matter and antimatter anihilate each other and the the people and
programs that were turned into a Smith-clone reverted back to their
original RSIs.

Rasta Robert
--//->

Paul Kekai Manansala

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Nov 6, 2003, 10:24:25 AM11/6/03
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lurke...@hotmail.com (Lurkerman) wrote in message news:<972724c2.03110...@posting.google.com>...
> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>


> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
>
>

Positive-negative reaction cancelling each other out? Smith is a
program designed in response and as a direct opposite to Neo.
Something about taking over the Matrix "body" causes the program to
terminate.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

james

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Nov 6, 2003, 10:44:08 AM11/6/03
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In article <bod0uo$qmc$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
Esa Perkio <epe...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:

>: 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
>: to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.
>
>Does he need to have any?

In the most basic film school notion of setup/payoff, he doesn't pay off.

>: 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

Explosions put asses in movie seats. Since naked women don't appear to
be available to the W Bros, exploding Agents Smith and other stuff to
blow up are the only tools left.

ccc

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 12:48:52 PM11/6/03
to
> SPOILER WARNING

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> : 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> : possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> : anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?
>
> It could just be the way they are, the way their culture works. The
> Architect, when asked for a promise to keep the implied deal says
> something like "What do you think I am? Human?" which seemed to me to say
> that the very idea of not keeping a deal was filthy and alien.

That seems to make the most sense.

In addition to that, it wouldn't do the machines any good to destroy
Zion by that time. Say Neo survived after Smith was destroyed.
Should the Architect (I'm assuming he was the machine who plugged Neo
in at the end of the movie) suddenly say, "Forget it, I'm destroying
Zion anyway," then there's no way Neo would have done what the
Architect needed him to do, which was reset the matrix program by
letting Zion get destroyed and freeing a few more humans to start the
cycle all over again. If Neo died, then Neo wouldn't be ABLE to do
it, anyway. Either way, destroying Zion would have been a pointless
waste of resources and wouldn't have contributed to the Architect's
goal, the resetting of the Matrix.

The Architect was backed into a corner. Ultimately, his desire was to
keep things the way they always had been, but as the Oracle pointed
out, with Agent Smith in the picture that was impossible. Neo going
to see him in the machine city forced the Architect's hand. Agreeing
to do what Neo wanted probably seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Likely the matrix would have to be reprogrammed to accomodate for
peace, but at least it could be salvaged. Even if there were lots of
humans who wanted to be unplugged from the matrix, the machines
shouldn't really have a problem growing more to replace them.

ccc

Chris

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Nov 6, 2003, 1:19:55 PM11/6/03
to

"Lurkerman" <lurke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:972724c2.03110...@posting.google.com...

> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>
> I've now seen Matrix Revolutions after much anticipation. After all
> the philosophicical and implied possibilites from the earlier Matrix
> Reloaded, I have to say that I feel pretty let down by the
> "conclusion" (or lack thereof) in Revolutions. I still have some
> fundamental consistency and closure questions that I think the
> Waschowskis should have answered for their viewers. Maybe some of you
> can add some insight that I just didn't see in Revolutions...
>
> 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
> serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
> see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?
This whole thing was a pointless excuse for a rather bad cliff hanger. I
would like to add the following. Why did Smith in human body go into a coma?
As for wireless it could be to show his growing conection to the machine
world. Also he wasn't in the actual Matrix he was in the in between Matrix.
When the train took him to the real Matrix they probably jacked him in.

> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
> when fighting them off in Revolutions.
The Oricle explained that he wasn't ready for it and it should have killed
him.

> 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
> world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
> this.

Once again I think it was showing his connection to the machine world. I
wouldn't say it was an EMP as it was a programing feet.


> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

To show how much Trinity loved Neo.


> 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

I don't think that Merovingian trapped him there as much as he was just
taking advantage of the fact that he was there. Your right about the train
the parent programs said there daughter would be taken out, but she was just
taken to the Oracle.


> 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> with humans?

Well at the end of the second movie, I thought she was just another program
that was trying to propagate the system. The One having to return to the
source. Meaning she was just a part of the system and a hidden enemy. One
more dangerous then all the agents. When I heard the actress died I thought
this was the way they were writting her out. I liked it and was disapointed
to see her return.


> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

Maybe they feel they can gain a greater amout of control over the system
like this. Those who did not want to be in the Matrix could be jacked out.
This would remove the need for the One to reset the system. With the One
either jacking out and never coming back, or never finding out he was the
One you remove the chance of Agent Smith happening again.


> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

Because they had to end it somehow. Lets see. Smith was disconected from the
Matrix. This gave him unlimeted freedom and power. When he cloned Neo he
downloaded his program into the CPU and this allowed a search and destroy by
the mainframe of that paticular program.


> I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
> relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
> came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
> series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
> missed.
>
> Thanks,
> Lurkerman

Like I said before the whole coma thing was a week plot device. Although it
did give us some nice Love talk to contrast to Smiths rant at the end.


Andy Turner

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Nov 6, 2003, 1:31:48 PM11/6/03
to
On 6 Nov 2003 07:24:25 -0800, a.man...@attbi.com (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

In Reloaded, just before the 100 Smiths fight, Smith tells Neo that he
"knew what he was supposed to do, but he just.. didn't", or something
along those lines, ie he was supposed to return to the source to be
assimilated, removed, but he chose to become an exile "unplugged, a
new man, so to speak". My thoughts were that in the final fight, Smith
doesn't realise that Neo is plugged into the actual machine again
(rather than broadcasting to a ship), and by allowing Smith to take
him over, actually tricks Smith into returning to the source. Of
course, that takes out all of the others because er, that's what
happens to zombies!

The biggest cop out for me was that over the last two films, Smith was
multiplying and we all wondered how Neo was going to handle all the
Smiths - but it seemed that the WB also realised it was un-portrayable
and contrived a reason for there to be only one Smith that Neo has to
fight again.


andyt

Jason

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 2:30:38 PM11/6/03
to
I think Neo allowed himself to be assimilated by Smith so that the
Smith program would then be connectd to the Source. As stated by the
Oracle in Reloaded, old/rogue programs could either go to the Source
to be deleted, or run into exile. Smith, after his encounter with Neo
in Matrix, had gone rogue (signified by the ear piece Neo gets in
Reloaded). So contact with the Source deleted him, which wiped out all
of his lesser incarnations and allowed the machines to restore order
to the Matrix.

I disliked how many things were NOT shown in Revolutions. For a 2+
hour film with relatively little plot, we should have seen Smith
dominate the Matrix directly, should have seen Neo wake up after
getting recused from the train station, then plug back in to visit the
Oracle (this is what lead to the confusion from the OP), should have
seen more of the Merovignian and how/why he has an underground network
for smuggling useless programs from the machine city into the matrix.
But I just couldn't stand for another scene of stilted, circuitious
machine dialogue, so I guess I should be grateful for the limited
screen time of the Architech and the Merovignian.

That is my largest complaint about the Matrix series. I understand
that the W bros want to show how alien and emotionless the machines
are, but why must they ALL be so obtuse? There is probably 30 minutes
worth of dialogue in the series that could have been said in less than
5 minutes, making it more interesting and accessable to viewers. Neo
just spouts off "why", "who are you", "what do you want", and gets a
dreary infodump in return. If Neo was a more animated character or
just SMARTER, the series would have been much more involving. Come on,
it takes him 5 minutes to figure out that Bane is Agent Smith, even
though Bane sounds and speaks just like Smith. Neo is just too stupid
to make for a truely heroic figure.

I think the Merovignian is going to be the main enemy for the next
Matrix game, the proposed MMORPG set after REvolutions. Given the
devotion the W bros have for telling the story over multiple mediums,
it would not surprise me AT ALL if the Merovignian and Persephony were
set up specifically for a post-truce environment. I can even see a TV
show in the making, since you don't really need a big budget to depict
the Matrix (sans hovercraft and sentinel battles).

Richard Masters

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 4:35:43 PM11/6/03
to

"Jason" <jaso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:86364851.03110...@posting.google.com...

Funny, I was thinking the same thing with the KID being the hero (the next
one kinda).


DanNeo

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Nov 6, 2003, 4:40:46 PM11/6/03
to
a.man...@attbi.com (Paul Kekai Manansala) wrote in message news:<a704ff38.03110...@posting.google.com>...


Yes, the positive Neo and the negative Smith cancel each other out and
all that's left in the watery crater was the Oracle, which Smith had
absorbed earlier. That much made sense to me anyway.

DanNeo

Nat Wallbank

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 5:53:06 PM11/6/03
to
> > 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> > Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
> I don't think that Merovingian trapped him there as much as he was just
> taking advantage of the fact that he was there. Your right about the train
> the parent programs said there daughter would be taken out, but she was just
> taken to the Oracle.

The parent programs wanted their daughter to be taken *into* the
matrix, as in the machine world she served no purpose and would be
terminated. They are from the machine world and were seen having a
meeting (to arrange this) with Merovingian in Reloaded...

> > 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> > with humans?
> Well at the end of the second movie, I thought she was just another program
> that was trying to propagate the system. The One having to return to the
> source. Meaning she was just a part of the system and a hidden enemy. One
> more dangerous then all the agents. When I heard the actress died I thought
> this was the way they were writting her out. I liked it and was disapointed
> to see her return.

The impression I got from Reloaded was that the Oracle (an intuitive
program) was placed in the Matrix to investigate the 'human condition'
and the anomaly. I have seen her described as the serpent to the
Architect's God, in that she tempts humans from the 'Garden of
Eden'/Matrix. I think she perhaps turned out more intuitive than the
Architect expected and became slightly mischievous (his reaction to
her in some scenes seemed to suggest this).

> > 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> > possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> > anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?
> Maybe they feel they can gain a greater amout of control over the system
> like this. Those who did not want to be in the Matrix could be jacked out.
> This would remove the need for the One to reset the system. With the One
> either jacking out and never coming back, or never finding out he was the
> One you remove the chance of Agent Smith happening again.

As the Architect said at the end when asked if he would free those
that wanted to be "Of course. I'm not human" (or something along
those lines).


> > 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> > And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
> Because they had to end it somehow. Lets see. Smith was disconected from the
> Matrix. This gave him unlimeted freedom and power. When he cloned Neo he
> downloaded his program into the CPU and this allowed a search and destroy by
> the mainframe of that paticular program.

Smith destroyed himself because after he destroyed Neo the equation
had to be balanced, which meant also destroying Smith (his inverse).
In a sense, Neo sacrificed himself.

> > I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
> > relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
> > came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
> > series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
> > missed.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lurkerman
> Like I said before the whole coma thing was a week plot device. Although it
> did give us some nice Love talk to contrast to Smiths rant at the end.

I was kind of disappointed with the movie at first, but the more I
think about it the more I look forward to seeing it again (I felt the
same about Reloaded). One thing that I haven't changed my opinion
about, is that some of the dialogue (particularly in Zion) was awful.
Very cheesy, "independence day" style dialogue. I was also
disappointed with Morpheus' lack of involvement in the final movie.

Reverend Lovejoy

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 7:13:22 PM11/6/03
to
> > I think the Merovignian is going to be the main enemy for the next
> > Matrix game, the proposed MMORPG set after REvolutions. Given the
> > devotion the W bros have for telling the story over multiple mediums,
> > it would not surprise me AT ALL if the Merovignian and Persephony were
> > set up specifically for a post-truce environment. I can even see a TV
> > show in the making, since you don't really need a big budget to depict
> > the Matrix (sans hovercraft and sentinel battles).
> >
>
> Funny, I was thinking the same thing with the KID being the hero (the next
> one kinda).

Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of the whole
franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a little deeper into the
Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the humans.... they'd be best off
starting from scratch with new human characters.

--
"I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens, he came in peace and
then died, only to come back to life, and his name was E.T., the extra
terestrial. I loved that little guy."
- Reverend Lovejoy, The Simpsons


Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 9:10:12 PM11/6/03
to
Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>
> Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of the whole
> franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
> incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a little deeper into the
> Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the humans.... they'd be best off
> starting from scratch with new human characters.

One wonders why people insist on thinking that a program - the
Merovingian - is really a human as old as methuselah.

Reverend Lovejoy

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Nov 6, 2003, 9:16:50 PM11/6/03
to
"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FAB0057...@comcast.net...

> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> >
> > Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of the
whole
> > franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
> > incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a little deeper into
the
> > Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the humans.... they'd be best off
> > starting from scratch with new human characters.
>
> One wonders why people insist on thinking that a program - the
> Merovingian - is really a human as old as methuselah.


Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name. IIRC,
The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who was supposedly
descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The One symbolism
throughout?)

Chris

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 11:28:48 PM11/6/03
to

"Nat Wallbank" <ma...@natwallbank.com> wrote in message
news:95349b1.03110...@posting.google.com...

> > > 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> > > Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
> > I don't think that Merovingian trapped him there as much as he was just
> > taking advantage of the fact that he was there. Your right about the
train
> > the parent programs said there daughter would be taken out, but she was
just
> > taken to the Oracle.
>
> The parent programs wanted their daughter to be taken *into* the
> matrix, as in the machine world she served no purpose and would be
> terminated. They are from the machine world and were seen having a
> meeting (to arrange this) with Merovingian in Reloaded...
I missed the meeting and this makes a lot more sense. I thought they were
having there daughter taken out of the matrix. I also find it odd that two
programs would have the programing to create a useless program.

> > > 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> > > with humans?
> > Well at the end of the second movie, I thought she was just another
program
> > that was trying to propagate the system. The One having to return to the
> > source. Meaning she was just a part of the system and a hidden enemy.
One
> > more dangerous then all the agents. When I heard the actress died I
thought
> > this was the way they were writting her out. I liked it and was
disapointed
> > to see her return.
>
> The impression I got from Reloaded was that the Oracle (an intuitive
> program) was placed in the Matrix to investigate the 'human condition'
> and the anomaly. I have seen her described as the serpent to the
> Architect's God, in that she tempts humans from the 'Garden of
> Eden'/Matrix. I think she perhaps turned out more intuitive than the
> Architect expected and became slightly mischievous (his reaction to
> her in some scenes seemed to suggest this).
I was under the impresion that she was the one who discovered the need for
the One and his return to the source.

> > > 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> > > possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> > > anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?
> > Maybe they feel they can gain a greater amout of control over the system
> > like this. Those who did not want to be in the Matrix could be jacked
out.
> > This would remove the need for the One to reset the system. With the One
> > either jacking out and never coming back, or never finding out he was
the
> > One you remove the chance of Agent Smith happening again.
>
> As the Architect said at the end when asked if he would free those
> that wanted to be "Of course. I'm not human" (or something along
> those lines).

Heres a question for you. How do you find out who wants to be jacked out?
Since the Matrix is a 20th/21st century construct lets look at in terms of
what would they do if we were in the Matrix. Do they leak it to a news
source and let the information pass through the system that way. Have
programs showing the benefits of living in the Matrix vs. living in Zion?
Or do you keep it for those who are intuitive enough to realize something is
wrong and are looking for it on there own as Mr. Anderson(he wasn't Neo at
the time) was doing before Trinity contacted him.

> > > 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> > > And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
> > Because they had to end it somehow. Lets see. Smith was disconected from
the
> > Matrix. This gave him unlimeted freedom and power. When he cloned Neo he
> > downloaded his program into the CPU and this allowed a search and
destroy by
> > the mainframe of that paticular program.
>
> Smith destroyed himself because after he destroyed Neo the equation
> had to be balanced, which meant also destroying Smith (his inverse).
> In a sense, Neo sacrificed himself.

As for Neo sacraficing himself I would have been deeply moved had Trinity
survived the trip to the end and Neo had to make the choice of sacraficing
himself when there was something to lose. Yes you could say he was
sacraficing himself. There was realy no choice to make. Think about the
drama in chosing between all life in Zion, all life in the Matrix, and a
whole host of programs who have shown themselves capable of love, hate,
really all the things that make us human but if you save them you have to
not only die, but know that you are causing the one who loves you. The one
who you make her life complete. Forced to live on without you.


> > > I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
> > > relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
> > > came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
> > > series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
> > > missed.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Lurkerman
> > Like I said before the whole coma thing was a week plot device. Although
it
> > did give us some nice Love talk to contrast to Smiths rant at the end.
>
> I was kind of disappointed with the movie at first, but the more I
> think about it the more I look forward to seeing it again (I felt the
> same about Reloaded). One thing that I haven't changed my opinion
> about, is that some of the dialogue (particularly in Zion) was awful.
> Very cheesy, "independence day" style dialogue. I was also
> disappointed with Morpheus' lack of involvement in the final movie.

I thought the movie was kind of slow and pointless at first. Excelent in the
middle and the fight at the end left me disapointed. Although upon further
review I will give the first 20 mins of the movie the fact that it showed
the machines as more then just a program. He was saving three groups of
people all of who could be argued deserved to be saved.


Nemesio Valle, III

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Nov 7, 2003, 1:19:43 AM11/7/03
to
lurke...@hotmail.com (Lurkerman) wrote in message news:<972724c2.03110...@posting.google.com>...
> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>
> I've now seen Matrix Revolutions after much anticipation. After all
> the philosophicical and implied possibilites from the earlier Matrix
> Reloaded, I have to say that I feel pretty let down by the
> "conclusion" (or lack thereof) in Revolutions. I still have some
> fundamental consistency and closure questions that I think the
> Waschowskis should have answered for their viewers. Maybe some of you
> can add some insight that I just didn't see in Revolutions...
>
> 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
> serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
> see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

Neo isn't precisely in the Matrix when he is in the train station.
The train station is a sort of limbo transition between the source (or
deletion, program death) and the Matrix. It does not exist by the
whimsy of the Architect or machines, but serves to subvert them.

Recall that the crew of the Mjolnir observes that Neo is not precisely
in a coma, but appears to be plugged in. Presumably, when Trinity,
Morpheus and Seraph discover where he is, and when they go there to
get him, they plug him back in so that he can get out in the proper
manner.

> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
> when fighting them off in Revolutions.
> 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real
> world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
> this.

Regarding #2 I believe that the Oracle explains this by saying he was
not ready to utilize the full breadth of his ability. Regarding #3,
the way I understand this comes from the conversation that Neo and
Smith have in their first battle in Reloaded. Smith doesn't know how
he chose to not be deleted, he says something like maybe "a part of
you overwrote a part of me." Smith was, in some black capacity,
imbued with the human-like ability of *choice* which the agents as a
rule didn't have; they simply obeyed. Similarly, Neo perhaps took on
an element of "program-ness," an ability to interact with the machines
on that level, to see as they see, even in the "real world."

Smith seems to expect this when he says "look beyond the flesh and see
your enemy." In an ironic twist, it was Smith's blinding of Neo that
enabled him to realize his dual nature; one of program and human.

>
> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

The Merovingian is a "trafficer of information." We (mis)understood
this to mean a trafficer of knowledge, but what it really means is a
trafficer of data: i.e. programs. He is, in a way, an unrealized
"One," albeit a program not a human. Persephone says this to Neo in
Reloaded. He is saving programs from deletion, although at a cost
that benefits himself. He is not the altruistic Neo, dying so that
others might live.

Persephone serves to clarify this point (her role is awfully limited
in Revolutions); she notes that the Merovingian is one who could have
been a savior, but fell out of love for virtue and in love with power
and control.



> 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

The Trainman is the means by which the Merovingian traffics other
programs. He is a program used to snatch up programs bound for
termination and bring them back to the Matrix, secretly. Sati, who
had no "purpose," was destined for deletion. Her father made a deal
of some sort to save her (we see him very briefly in Reloaded as Neo,
Morpheus and Trinity approach the Merovingian).

It's not real clear how Neo gets trapped there, but its easy to
understand how he remains trapped. The train station is a tertiary
reality; a matrix within the Matrix as it were. The rules are
different; they give power to the Trainman and limit those in there.
They prevent those waiting there from escaping (as Neo campily
observed).



> 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> with humans?

There are three parties involved in the war: 1) the Humans; 2) the
Machines; and 3) the sentient Programs. We observe that programs are
not unlike humans, entitled to the same rights and privileges.

Let's make an anology. The humans created AI, sentient machines, but
they continued to treat them like we treat our toasters. The
machines, naturally, resented this and rebelled.

The Machines, we now know have created sentient programs, and yet, as
Sati represents, they are sent to be deleted without a particular
reason, simply because they have no purpose.

It is clear that the Oracle's ostensible purpose is to guide the One
to the Architect and to the source, to delete the unbalanced part of
the equation, so to speak. The problem is choice, recall. The
Oracle, it seems, chose a different approach, thereby guiding Neo in a
different fashion. Perhaps she did this because of Neo's closer
connection with the programs, as I mused above (taking on a part of
Smith, or program-ness).

Unlike the Architect, who is a slave to mathematical precision, the
metaphorical "brain," the Oracle comes to symbolize the "heart" of
programmatic nature. Unsurprisingly this conforms to the age-old
archetypes with male and female.



> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

This is the toughest one to interpret. First, let's look at the
American fiscal budget. We spend a tremendous amount on "Defense" (or
"Offense" as it is realized as of late). Imagine if we could spend
all of that on health care or education.

Peace benefits the Machines substantially. They don't have to use
power to propel sentinels or defend their city. They will need far
fewer human batteries in order to exist.

Perhaps another factor is that Neo, part human, part program,
representing the best of both kinds, taught the Machines about the
best of both natures. Perhaps learned that, in some capacity, their
utilization of humans (and sentient programs) was as insensitive and
immoral as when the humans were abusing sentient machines.

Perhaps the scene where Neo and Trinity breach the dark clouds and see
the sun, as well as the multi-colored sunrise at the end, symbolize
the return to utilizing solar power rather than biological power.

> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

Smith is Neo's antithesis, is exact emotional and moral opposite. He
is mostly program, but part human (note that, unlike the other Agents
in the first movie, he unplugs, gets emotional, seeks to get "free").
Neo is mostly human, but part program (and increasingly so towards the
conclusion).

Neo realized that his fight with Smith was microcosmically analogous
to the war between Humans and Machines (and Programs, less directly).
Machines and Humans (and Programs) need each other symbiotically to
survive.

When Neo and Smith are fighting with each other, Neo is sucumbing to
the crude solution talked about in Reloaded with the Councilor; the
sign of control is being able to blow things up. Smith never
transcends this, until it is too late, of course. By giving himself
up, he enables all three worlds to be saved, or at least the Humans'
and the Programs' worlds.

Why Neo's sacrifice resulted in Smith's death is somewhat unclear.
Perhaps Smith's overwriting of Neo balanced out Neo's overwriting of
Smith. Perhaps when Smith entered Neo's body, the direct connection
with the source allowed the Matrix to delete him.

I've only seen Revolutions once, so I am just conjecturing here, but I
think the movie made more sense than you seem to be suggesting. I am
opened to other possibilities. I wasn't terribly fond of the second
movie the first time I saw it, but came to really enjoy it after a few
viewings and some wine and cheese, pop-philosophy discussions. My
initial reaction to this movie was similar, but as I have been
thinking about it, I have liked it more. I would enjoy reading more
posts which try to tie the second in with the third.

Rob Myers

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Nov 7, 2003, 1:46:37 AM11/7/03
to
In article <c%tqb.7523$mb5.5870@fed1read02>, james
<fish...@conservatory.com> wrote:

Also, remember how Neo "destroyed" Agent Smith in M1? Neo went into
Smith and destroyed him from within. Same thing here.

--
rob m at rob myers dot net

Icon

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Nov 7, 2003, 3:10:49 AM11/7/03
to
"Nemesio Valle, III" <captai...@verizon.net> wrote :


BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD

<Snip a bit>


> > 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> > Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
>
> The Trainman is the means by which the Merovingian traffics other
> programs. He is a program used to snatch up programs bound for
> termination and bring them back to the Matrix, secretly. Sati, who
> had no "purpose," was destined for deletion. Her father made a deal
> of some sort to save her (we see him very briefly in Reloaded as Neo,
> Morpheus and Trinity approach the Merovingian).

In the game, "Enter the Matrix", we find out about this deal. To save Sati,
her father sold the Oracle's shell(body) program to the Merovignian,
allowing the Merovignian to destroy the Oracle, who we find out in
Revolutions, managed to aquire another shell. Also, the Oracle agreed to
this because she believed that Sati would have an important role in both the
Matrix and the Real World.

Also of interest is that when the Merovignian requires the eyes of the orace
(her intuitive program), she agrees to save Neo, thus giving up her eyes.
The Oracle lost her "sight",(hinted at when she does not have the cookies
baked in time, and she offers candy to Neo which he refused i.e. she
couldn't see his reaction) thus when Smith thought he was seeing the future,
he was not, the Oracle was manipulating him from within.

This seems as if it will continue, with Sati's role explained, in the new
Matrix online game.


Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 4:28:26 AM11/7/03
to
Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>
> Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
> throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name. IIRC,
> The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who was supposedly
> descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The One symbolism
> throughout?)

Yes, although I find it unreasonable to expect that the previous
iterations of the One are still alive, given that we're talking about
100 year cycles. I also tend to trust what we're told in the film, that
the Merovingian is a program. Something Neo is not.

Andy Turner

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Nov 7, 2003, 4:48:43 AM11/7/03
to
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:16:50 GMT, "Reverend Lovejoy"
<pap...@remove-these-words.rpi.edu> wrote:

>"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:3FAB0057...@comcast.net...
>> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>> >
>> > Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of the
>whole
>> > franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
>> > incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a little deeper into
>the
>> > Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the humans.... they'd be best off
>> > starting from scratch with new human characters.
>>
>> One wonders why people insist on thinking that a program - the
>> Merovingian - is really a human as old as methuselah.
>
>
>Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
>throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name. IIRC,
>The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who was supposedly
>descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The One symbolism
>throughout?)

That's what happens when you try to pigeon hole the characters into
being direct equivilents of characters within certain releigious
beliefs. When they don't quite fit the mould, you think something is
amiss!!


andyt

Tor Laneryd

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Nov 7, 2003, 4:40:17 AM11/7/03
to
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, mzmeryze wrote:

> On 5 Nov 2003 23:40:47 -0800, lurke...@hotmail.com (Lurkerman)


> wrote:
>
> >And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
>

> Something about Smith's speech in the pit about his purpose being not
> needed after Neo is dead. I have to see this movie again.

As far as I can tell, Agent Smith completing his intended task is exactly
the reason why he is deleted. He was created to find and destroy the One;
once this has been achieved, the program stops running. I don't remember
the piece of dialogue referred to above, but it makes perfect sense. Agent
Smith's speech makes Neo realise that only by letting himself be destroyed
can he defeat Smith.

Ironically, Agent Smith was completely right when he said something along
the lines of "I will win. I have seen it." (In most movies when the bad
guy says something like this he is wrong.) After having taken over the
Oracle, he gains her prescient powers. He _knows_ he will win. He also
_knows_ there will be no treachery. (I don't buy the theory that the
Source or whatever managed to get a direct connection to Smith through Neo
and destroy him in that way.) Unfortunately, Smith never considered the
consequences of winning, and so he is deleted. This also explains why all
the copies are deleted as well (something that other theories I have seen
doesn't really do).

Why couldn't Neo destroy Agent Smith in this way in the earlier movie?
Two reasons:

1) In order to be accepted by the Machines as the One, he had to reach the
Architect. If he had been killed before this condition was fulfilled, he
would have been considered just a false alarm, and it wouldn't have
triggered the deletion of Agent Smith. (This scenario would most likely
have lead to Agent Smith actually destroying both worlds.)

2) Until they had the peace agreement with the Machines, destroying Agent
Smith would have achieved nothing. It's pretty clear that humanity never
had a chance to win the war.

/Tor Laneryd

Carl LaFong

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 7:36:43 AM11/7/03
to
In article <972724c2.03110...@posting.google.com>, Lurkerman
<lurke...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>

> I've now seen Matrix Revolutions after much anticipation. After all
> the philosophicical and implied possibilites from the earlier Matrix
> Reloaded, I have to say that I feel pretty let down by the
> "conclusion" (or lack thereof) in Revolutions. I still have some
> fundamental consistency and closure questions that I think the
> Waschowskis should have answered for their viewers. Maybe some of you
> can add some insight that I just didn't see in Revolutions...
>
> 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
> serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
> see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

When Persephone kissed him she gave him that ability. She is the
goddess 0f Hades, in Greek mythology the equivalent to a pale grey
afterlife. She is the only one in Hades who is able to travel to Hades
and Olympus. When she kissed him, she gave Neo that ability, or rather,
transferred that ability to him, as a file is transferred from one
computer to another.


>
> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
> when fighting them off in Revolutions.

For effect. It points that something special occurred...also...he died,
or am I wrong....because...

> > 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
>

the trainman is Charon who ferries you across the River Styx into Hades
when you die. you must be buried with the fare to pay Charon or he will
not take you across. Neo does not have the fare. Like Orpheus, Morpheus
and Trinity must battle Hades to bring him back (though in the myth of
Orpheus and Eurydice Persephone allows her to leave as long as Orpheus
does not look back.


>
> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.
>

See above.

> 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
> with humans?
>

> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?
>

the virus is destroyed. and the applications are all once again in
harmony. Who says Neo is a human anyway? maybe the entire thing tales
place in an AI of some sort. Maybe it just thinks it's alive.

> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
>

Think of Neo as a Symantec's Anit-Virus app. the virus has been
destroyed.

> I hate to say it, but it seems like what started out as a
> relatively-solid first 2 movies waiting to tie up its loose ends just
> came up with weak, hole-filled excuses for bringing an end to the
> series. Again, hopefully some of you can add some things that I just
> missed.

nah...the series is just so good that we wanted closure and there isn't
any. Remember what Jada Smith said...there can be more of them. You
will never really find out what the matrix is. i doubt is the prothers
themselves understand it.

For further reading, Jason, read my post entitled "Deep Thoughts:
Revolutions".

Carl LaFong

>
> Thanks,
> Lurkerman

Feek O'Hanrahan

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 9:45:51 AM11/7/03
to

I thought it was the Face that destroyed Smith?

--
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us
from the animals... except the weasel


Feek O'Hanrahan

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 9:49:09 AM11/7/03
to
Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> "Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3FAB0057...@comcast.net...
>> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>>>
>>> Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of
>>> the whole franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian
>>> was a previous incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a
>>> little deeper into the Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the
>>> humans.... they'd be best off starting from scratch with new human
>>> characters.
>>
>> One wonders why people insist on thinking that a program - the
>> Merovingian - is really a human as old as methuselah.
>
>
> Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
> throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name.
> IIRC, The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who
> was supposedly descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The
> One symbolism throughout?)

Is the Merv not the devil?

Feek O'Hanrahan

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 10:04:56 AM11/7/03
to
B
E
W
A
R
E

-
-

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

A
H
E
A
D

Nemesio Valle, III wrote:
> lurke...@hotmail.com (Lurkerman) wrote in message
> news:<972724c2.03110...@posting.google.com>...
>> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
>>

>> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
>> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
>> when fighting them off in Revolutions.
>> 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the
>> real world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because"
>> answer for this.
>
> Regarding #2 I believe that the Oracle explains this by saying he was
> not ready to utilize the full breadth of his ability. Regarding #3,
> the way I understand this comes from the conversation that Neo and
> Smith have in their first battle in Reloaded. Smith doesn't know how
> he chose to not be deleted, he says something like maybe "a part of
> you overwrote a part of me." Smith was, in some black capacity,
> imbued with the human-like ability of *choice* which the agents as a
> rule didn't have; they simply obeyed. Similarly, Neo perhaps took on
> an element of "program-ness," an ability to interact with the machines
> on that level, to see as they see, even in the "real world."

Good point, and given Neo's new-found wifi connection, this would be no
problem in the real world.

>> 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the
>> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
>
> The Trainman is the means by which the Merovingian traffics other
> programs. He is a program used to snatch up programs bound for
> termination and bring them back to the Matrix, secretly. Sati, who
> had no "purpose," was destined for deletion. Her father made a deal
> of some sort to save her (we see him very briefly in Reloaded as Neo,
> Morpheus and Trinity approach the Merovingian).
>
> It's not real clear how Neo gets trapped there, but its easy to
> understand how he remains trapped. The train station is a tertiary
> reality; a matrix within the Matrix as it were. The rules are
> different; they give power to the Trainman and limit those in there.
> They prevent those waiting there from escaping (as Neo campily
> observed).

I loved Neo's reaction to looping in the trainstation.

>> 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any
>> possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
>> anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?
>

> <snip>


>
> Perhaps another factor is that Neo, part human, part program,
> representing the best of both kinds, taught the Machines about the
> best of both natures. Perhaps learned that, in some capacity, their
> utilization of humans (and sentient programs) was as insensitive and
> immoral as when the humans were abusing sentient machines.

This is precisely what I think. I, however, go a step further and say that
the original reason humans were interred was to stop the war, not because
the machines needed energy. Maybe the energy thing was a side benefit, but I
think that's all it was.


>> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?
>> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?
>

> <snip>


>
> Why Neo's sacrifice resulted in Smith's death is somewhat unclear.

> Perhaps when Smith entered Neo's body, the direct connection
> with the source allowed the Matrix to delete him.
> Perhaps Smith's overwriting of Neo balanced out Neo's overwriting of
> Smith.

When I first saw the movie, I thought it was the first one. Now, I'm coming
more and more over to the camp that it was the balancing of the equation
that destroyed Smith. I'm seeing the movie again on Monday (IMAX, baby! :),
so I'll see it again.

-----

BTW, wonderful post.

Justin Bacon

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 10:47:02 AM11/7/03
to
Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
>incarnation of The One,

You won't, because he isn't. We're told what the Merovingian is before we ever
meet him: An exiled program.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Justin Bacon

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 10:49:34 AM11/7/03
to
James wrote:
>In article <bod0uo$qmc$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
>Esa Perkio <epe...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>>: 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
>>: to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.
>>
>>Does he need to have any?
>
>In the most basic film school notion of setup/payoff, he doesn't pay off.

That's like claiming that Peter Lorre's character in CASABLANCA doesn't
pay-off.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Justin Bacon

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 11:06:55 AM11/7/03
to
Icon wrote:
>In the game, "Enter the Matrix", we find out about this deal. To save Sati,
>her father sold the Oracle's shell(body) program to the Merovignian,
>allowing the Merovignian to destroy the Oracle, who we find out in
>Revolutions, managed to aquire another shell. Also, the Oracle agreed to
>this because she believed that Sati would have an important role in both the
>Matrix and the Real World.

This is heavily laced with speculation. We don't know that the person the
Oracle speaks of saving in ENTER THE MATRIX is, in fact, Sati.

>Also of interest is that when the Merovignian requires the eyes of the orace
>(her intuitive program), she agrees to save Neo, thus giving up her eyes.
>The Oracle lost her "sight",(hinted at when she does not have the cookies
>baked in time, and she offers candy to Neo which he refused i.e. she
>couldn't see his reaction) thus when Smith thought he was seeing the future,
>he was not, the Oracle was manipulating him from within.

Uh, no. Trinity points a gun at the Merovingian's head and short-circuits the
deal.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Justin Bacon

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 11:09:19 AM11/7/03
to
Tor Laneryd wrote:
>As far as I can tell, Agent Smith completing his intended task is exactly
>the reason why he is deleted. He was created to find and destroy the One;

The Agents don't even appear to know about the One, let alone programmed to
find and destroy him. That would, actually, be a fairly silly thing to program
them to do, since the machines don't want the One destroyed.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Justin Bacon

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 11:14:13 AM11/7/03
to
Carl LaFong wrote:
>When Persephone kissed him she gave him that ability. She is the
>goddess 0f Hades, in Greek mythology the equivalent to a pale grey
>afterlife. She is the only one in Hades who is able to travel to Hades
>and Olympus. When she kissed him, she gave Neo that ability, or rather,
>transferred that ability to him, as a file is transferred from one
>computer to another.

Explicitly not the case. The Oracle tells us that the ability is a result of
Neo's brush with the Source.

>> 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in
>> Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
>> when fighting them off in Revolutions.
>
>For effect. It points that something special occurred...also...he died,
>or am I wrong....because...

Yup, you're wrong.

Neo ended up in the machine world when he destroyed the sentinels at the end of
RELOADED. The Oracle tells us, later, that he wasn't ready for this (and should
have been killed). Instead, he ended up in the Merovingian's train station.
Why? I hypothesize that he fled back towards the Matrix as a place of
familiarity, and the Merovingian's secret railroad was the easiest access
point.

If you want to view this as an analogy for Death/Hades/Charon/River Styx,
that's fine. (And does create the interesting dynamic of Neo dying at the end
of all three films.) But death explicilty did *not* occur.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Reverend Lovejoy

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 12:10:30 PM11/7/03
to
"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FAB670D...@comcast.net...

> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> >
> > Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
> > throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name.
IIRC,
> > The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who was
supposedly
> > descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The One symbolism
> > throughout?)
>
> Yes, although I find it unreasonable to expect that the previous
> iterations of the One are still alive, given that we're talking about
> 100 year cycles. I also tend to trust what we're told in the film, that
> the Merovingian is a program. Something Neo is not.


The role of The One was to enter the source where his "code" would be
downloaded and used to make the next iteration of the Matrix better. So you
don't have to assume that the Merovingian is human, he could merely be that
"code" that came from a previous The One. The line between a human and a
program in the movie is blurry enough to believe that it's possible. If we
can download programs into human brains (Smith, kung fu instruction, etc)
there's no reason that human brains can't be uploaded to make programs out
of them.

Reverend Lovejoy

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 12:16:14 PM11/7/03
to
"Justin Bacon" <tria...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031107104702...@mb-m29.aol.com...

> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> >I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian was a previous
> >incarnation of The One,
>
> You won't, because he isn't. We're told what the Merovingian is before we
ever
> meet him: An exiled program.


And we're shown consistently throughout that human brains and programs are
interchangable, the software can run on either biological or silicon
hardware. It's not too hard to assume that he was able to divorce his mind
from his body and live in the machine world, given what we know about the
role of the One in rebooting the Matrix.

Gavin Smith

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 12:03:49 PM11/7/03
to
Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged icing
anointment utensil, Carl LaFong <laf...@aol.com> poots forth...

>> 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory
>> serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
>> see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?
>
>When Persephone kissed him she gave him that ability. She is the
>goddess 0f Hades, in Greek mythology the equivalent to a pale grey
>afterlife. She is the only one in Hades who is able to travel to Hades
>and Olympus. When she kissed him, she gave Neo that ability, or rather,
>transferred that ability to him, as a file is transferred from one
>computer to another.

Wouldn't Persephone have given that same ability to Niobe and Ghost? If
not, what would be her motive in kissing them? Apart from the fact that,
in the former case, it looks hot...

--
Gavin Smith
--
Elephants can't jump

Reverend Lovejoy

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 12:20:06 PM11/7/03
to
> Ironically, Agent Smith was completely right when he said something along
> the lines of "I will win. I have seen it." (In most movies when the bad
> guy says something like this he is wrong.) After having taken over the
> Oracle, he gains her prescient powers. He _knows_ he will win. He also
> _knows_ there will be no treachery. (I don't buy the theory that the
> Source or whatever managed to get a direct connection to Smith through Neo
> and destroy him in that way.) Unfortunately, Smith never considered the
> consequences of winning, and so he is deleted. This also explains why all
> the copies are deleted as well (something that other theories I have seen
> doesn't really do).


I think you're missing a big component of this. It was beaten over our heads
through both sequels that "You can't see past the choices that you don't
understand". We were then treated to a long monologue by Smith to Neo of "I
don't understand". Hence it was impossible for Smith to see past that choice
at the end, which was also made clear by his confusion "I was supposed to
stand here... I think... and say something..." before beating Neo.

Michael Hobbs

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 1:59:17 PM11/7/03
to
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:40:17 +0100, Tor Laneryd wrote:

> (I don't buy the theory that the
> Source or whatever managed to get a direct connection to Smith through Neo
> and destroy him in that way.)

If you'll remember, the Source was pumping a whole lot of something into
Neo's body while the Smiths were exploding. A simple balancing of the
equation and subsequent deletion doesn't seem to explain it.

James Williams

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 2:38:36 PM11/7/03
to
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:49:09 -0500, "Feek O'Hanrahan"
<feek...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Is the Merv not the devil?
>
>--
>Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us
>from the animals... except the weasel
>
>
>

Merv Griffin?
James.Williams

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:07:55 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Lurkerman <lurke...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD

: 1) How is Neo able to be in the Matrix wirelessly now? And, if memory


: serves me correctly, why does he physically jack out of a wire when we
: see him get out of the Matrix after the Oracle visit?

Because, whether it's real or not, it's all just patterns of energy. Is this
the real world? Is this? Is there one?

: 2) Why did Neo collapse into a coma-like state in the first place in


: Reloaded after he stopped the Sentinels? He doesn't do this again
: when fighting them off in Revolutions.

A seer often needs rest after a revelation.

: 3) Why/how does Neo have EMP-like powers and special sight in the real


: world now? It doesn't feel fair to have a "just because" answer for
: this.

Because he has earned them as he has reached new levels of understanding. He
was initiate. Now he's adept.

: 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance
: to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

He's Neo's dark shadow, his unconscious Id, the remnant of all that Neo might
have amounted to, that which he has now surpassed. As Persephone is Trinity
with love drained out of her.

: 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the


: Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?

Neo was not yet ready for his latest level of progress; those fearing change
sought to prevent it. The Oracle has many words that provide insight here.

: 6) What is the oracle's real motivation? Why would she want peace
: with humans?

She's very wise. The software is not the same as the hardware. And it is
sentient.

: 7) Why would the machines not destroy Zion (i.e., why keep any


: possible promise with Neo)? Once smith is dead, why not destroy Zion
: anyway and keep your human-farms at full population, right?

An answer for another film.

: 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

: And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

How did Neo know anything? Because it felt right.

Why did the Smiths explode? Because they were darkness, and they couldn't
stand the light. There was knowledge that they refused to see, knowledge that
could only be understood by a leap of faith. Note their dark glasses, and how
those break first when confronted with Neo, time and time again.

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:17:03 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Andy Turner <an...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

: The biggest cop out for me was that over the last two films, Smith was
: multiplying and we all wondered how Neo was going to handle all the
: Smiths - but it seemed that the WB also realised it was un-portrayable
: and contrived a reason for there to be only one Smith that Neo has to
: fight again.

Was the Burly Battle so great you'd happily sit through it again? This one had
a cool feeling of Superman vs. Batman to me.

If Batman was in a Kryptonite Exosekeleton, I mean.

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:09:55 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films james <fish...@conservatory.com> wrote:
: In article <bod0uo$qmc$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
: Esa Perkio <epe...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:

:>: 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance


:>: to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

:>
:>Does he need to have any?

: In the most basic film school notion of setup/payoff, he doesn't pay off.

He paid off in Reloaded. He made them run. This time, Trinity paid him back.

:>: 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

: Explosions put asses in movie seats. Since naked women don't appear to


: be available to the W Bros, exploding Agents Smith and other stuff to
: blow up are the only tools left.

How did you miss the naked women?

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:26:29 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Nemesio Valle, III <captai...@verizon.net> wrote:

:> 8) Why do the Smiths explode when he overtakes Neo's body at the end?

:> And how would Neo know to choose to let Smith take over his body?

: Why Neo's sacrifice resulted in Smith's death is somewhat unclear.

: Perhaps Smith's overwriting of Neo balanced out Neo's overwriting of
: Smith. Perhaps when Smith entered Neo's body, the direct connection
: with the source allowed the Matrix to delete him.

It allowed the Oracle to survive. Smith had her power, but still couldn't see.
When faced with true revelation (Neo), he was too limited to be transformed,
and could only end.

: initial reaction to this movie was similar, but as I have been


: thinking about it, I have liked it more. I would enjoy reading more
: posts which try to tie the second in with the third.

Very simply, Reloaded was all windup, and Revolutions was the pitch.

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:15:23 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Julie d'Aubigny <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

: Lurkerman wrote:
:>
:> BEWARE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
:>
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
: .
:> 4) What's the Merovingian's significance other than being a nuisance

:> to Neo? And Persephone, too? Seems pointless in the end.

: The Merovingian is incidental in the third movie. He was a brief
: obstacle. Persephone is there because she's the Merovingian's wife.

No, she's there to burlesque passion (in all that black and red, trapped in a
miserabilists orgy) while recognizing the real thing in Trinity.

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:29:15 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Carl LaFong <laf...@aol.com> wrote:

:> > 5) What's the train man's significance and how did he (or the


:> Merovingian) manage to trap Neo in limbo, anyway?
:>
: the trainman is Charon who ferries you across the River Styx into Hades
: when you die. you must be buried with the fare to pay Charon or he will
: not take you across. Neo does not have the fare. Like Orpheus, Morpheus
: and Trinity must battle Hades to bring him back (though in the myth of
: Orpheus and Eurydice Persephone allows her to leave as long as Orpheus
: does not look back.

Very well put. Thanks, I was blanking on charon myself but knew the trainman
felt older than time.

: nah...the series is just so good that we wanted closure and there isn't


: any. Remember what Jada Smith said...there can be more of them. You
: will never really find out what the matrix is. i doubt is the prothers
: themselves understand it.

It is a cycle, after all. Not a revolt, but a full turn.

Shawn

Shawn H

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 3:21:02 PM11/7/03
to
In rec.arts.movies.current-films Nat Wallbank <ma...@natwallbank.com> wrote:

: Very cheesy, "independence day" style dialogue. I was also
: disappointed with Morpheus' lack of involvement in the final movie.

I welcomed this, compared to his pontificating in Reloaded. Letting Niobe take
over the spotlight was fine with me, and perfectly in keeping with the
sensitive Morpheus from the first film.

Shawn

Isaac Kuo

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 5:03:38 PM11/7/03
to
"Chris" <fitzd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<vqm7os6...@corp.supernews.com>...

>Heres a question for you. How do you find out who wants to be jacked out?
>Since the Matrix is a 20th/21st century construct lets look at in terms of
>what would they do if we were in the Matrix. Do they leak it to a news
>source and let the information pass through the system that way. Have
>programs showing the benefits of living in the Matrix vs. living in Zion?
>Or do you keep it for those who are intuitive enough to realize something is
>wrong and are looking for it on there own as Mr. Anderson(he wasn't Neo at
>the time) was doing before Trinity contacted him.

Simple--you let everyone know the truth that the Matrix
is just a big MMORPG (hmm...). Anyone who wants to play
can play 24/7 at just the cost of their body heat. Anyone
who doesn't want to play and would rather live in the
sh*thole known as Zion and wear crappy Gap clothes and eat
rice pudding all the time is free to do so at any time.

In short, the Matrix is simply converted from a massive
prison into a massive vacation resort. Given how crappy
the world outside is and how trivial the price of admission
is, there should be no shortage of human inhabitants.

According to the Architect, the reason the original utopian
Matrix failed was because eventually everyone rejected it--humans
can't accept a life forced on them without any choice, even if
that forced life is pleasant. The new Matrix redesign will
allow everyone the choice to leave, so the Matrix is stable.

The basic point of this movie is that there wasn't any
particular reason why the humans and machines needed to be at war
at all. If all humans can freely enter/leave the Matrix then
there's no need for the resistance to attack it and no need for
the machines to defend it. If the machines don't need to defend
the Matrix, they don't need to attack Zion. If the machines don't
need to attack Zion, the humans don't need to attack the machines.

However, that's the weak link in the chain--the humans don't
NEED to attack the machines, but humans will sometimes do things
they don't need to do. As such, the peace can eventually
break down someday, and the machines know it. It took the
the Smith threat to convince the machines to risk ending the war.

Isaac Kuo

Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 8:09:37 PM11/7/03
to
Feek O'Hanrahan wrote:
>
> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> > "Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:3FAB0057...@comcast.net...
> >> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Let's hope not, he was easily the most annoying character out of
> >>> the whole franchise. I'd love a confirmation that the Merovingian
> >>> was a previous incarnation of The One, and I wouldn't mind going a
> >>> little deeper into the Oracle/Architect interplay, but out of the
> >>> humans.... they'd be best off starting from scratch with new human
> >>> characters.
> >>
> >> One wonders why people insist on thinking that a program - the
> >> Merovingian - is really a human as old as methuselah.
> >
> >
> > Well, from the nature of the character (his & persephone's statements
> > throughout allude to this conclusion), but mostly it's from his name.
> > IIRC, The Merovingian was a French king during the middle ages who
> > was supposedly descended directly from Jesus (Remember the Jesus=The
> > One symbolism throughout?)
>
> Is the Merv not the devil?

He rules over Hel, his minions are ghosts and vampires, his wife is
Persephone, and he displays all the signs of wealth and privilege.
Sounds like a Hades to me.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.ma...@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 8:18:17 PM11/7/03
to
Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
>
> The role of The One was to enter the source where his "code" would be
> downloaded and used to make the next iteration of the Matrix better. So you
> don't have to assume that the Merovingian is human, he could merely be that
> "code" that came from a previous The One. The line between a human and a
> program in the movie is blurry enough to believe that it's possible. If we
> can download programs into human brains (Smith, kung fu instruction, etc)
> there's no reason that human brains can't be uploaded to make programs out
> of them.

No, I don't think so. I'm not particularly fond of torturing my
interpretations.

That is, it's probably possible to have programs that simulate humans
(it's explicitly possible), but I strongly doubt the Merovingian is
anything more than an exile with a lot of influence in the Matrix. I
think the statements about how he was like Neo are in reference to
idealism, not origins.

RufusTFirefly

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 10:42:11 PM11/7/03
to
In article <bogvar$im0$7...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

'What the Matrix is' is already known. The question posed by 'Reloaded'
and 'Revolutions' is 'What is the alternative?'

I would posit that 'Reality' is not a viable alternative to the Matrix
- The ecosphere cannot currently sustain a humanity freed from the pods.

Thus the conclusion of the movies. The Architect will free those who,
discovering the nature of the Matrix, choose to be seperated from the
Matrix. The rest will remain linked to the Matrix in a symbiotic
relationship. The only unanswered question is will the Machine Culture
and the Free Human culture work together to create a livable environment
for humans, and find new energy sources for the machines.

RufusTFirefly

Reverend Lovejoy

unread,
Nov 7, 2003, 10:45:59 PM11/7/03
to
"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FAC45AD...@comcast.net...

> Reverend Lovejoy wrote:
> >
> > The role of The One was to enter the source where his "code" would be
> > downloaded and used to make the next iteration of the Matrix better. So
you
> > don't have to assume that the Merovingian is human, he could merely be
that
> > "code" that came from a previous The One. The line between a human and a
> > program in the movie is blurry enough to believe that it's possible. If
we
> > can download programs into human brains (Smith, kung fu instruction,
etc)
> > there's no reason that human brains can't be uploaded to make programs
out
> > of them.
>
> No, I don't think so. I'm not particularly fond of torturing my
> interpretations.


IMHO, it's not a tortured explanation at all. It seemed to me a quite
natural explanation following what we're given.

Of course, lacking any verification in the movie, you're free to come up
with your own conclusions. I've just explained why I hold mine.