Bookcrossing. David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_.

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Mark Atwood

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Nov 20, 2005, 11:09:38 PM11/20/05
to
I've got a BookCrossing tagged copy of
David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_
<http://www.bookcrossing.com/265-3471912>.

I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
request for it, who who has the most interesting address (non-US
addresses are fine). The only conditions I ask are that you log it
into the BookCrossing website, and you pass it on to someone else when
you're done reading it.

--
Mark Atwood When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@mark.atwood.name you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

David Dyer-Bennet

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Nov 21, 2005, 1:52:36 AM11/21/05
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Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> writes:

> I've got a BookCrossing tagged copy of
> David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_
> <http://www.bookcrossing.com/265-3471912>.

What's this "Robert J. Sawyer" nonsense? And that third guy?

Ah, I see your comment on the updating. Yeah. Authors!
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Mark Atwood

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Nov 21, 2005, 11:19:41 AM11/21/05
to
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> writes:
>
>> I've got a BookCrossing tagged copy of
>> David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_
>> <http://www.bookcrossing.com/265-3471912>.
>
> What's this "Robert J. Sawyer" nonsense? And that third guy?
>
> Ah, I see your comment on the updating. Yeah. Authors!

I didn't actually fill the authors field it, the Bookcrossing website
did a datadip to Amazon. Robert J. Sawyer and Geoffrey Klempner did
not help revise the book, they just wrote the forward, and an
afterword essay.

David Dyer-Bennet

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Nov 21, 2005, 12:08:44 PM11/21/05
to
Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
> > Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> writes:
> >
> >> I've got a BookCrossing tagged copy of
> >> David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_
> >> <http://www.bookcrossing.com/265-3471912>.
> >
> > What's this "Robert J. Sawyer" nonsense? And that third guy?
> >
> > Ah, I see your comment on the updating. Yeah. Authors!
>
> I didn't actually fill the authors field it, the Bookcrossing website
> did a datadip to Amazon. Robert J. Sawyer and Geoffrey Klempner did
> not help revise the book, they just wrote the forward, and an
> afterword essay.

Good, that's better. I remember the book fondly, along with When
Harlie Was One. Back when David Gerrold could write.

Marilee J. Layman

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Nov 21, 2005, 6:11:14 PM11/21/05
to
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 04:09:38 GMT, Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name>
wrote:

>I've got a BookCrossing tagged copy of
>David Gerrold's _The Man Who Folded Himself_
><http://www.bookcrossing.com/265-3471912>.
>
>I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
>request for it, who who has the most interesting address (non-US
>addresses are fine). The only conditions I ask are that you log it
>into the BookCrossing website, and you pass it on to someone else when
>you're done reading it.

I already have a copy.

--
Marilee J. Layman

Mark Atwood

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Nov 21, 2005, 7:12:12 PM11/21/05
to
Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> writes:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 04:09:38 GMT, Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
>>request for it
>
> I already have a copy.

That's not a very interesting request.

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 21, 2005, 8:56:29 PM11/21/05
to
Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:

> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
>>> I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
>>> request for it

>> I already have a copy.

So do I.

> That's not a very interesting request.

If it's the only request you've received (is it?), then it's the most
interesting request you've received.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Joe Ellis

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Nov 21, 2005, 9:10:18 PM11/21/05
to
In article <dlttsd$pu$1...@panix1.panix.com>,

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
> > Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
> >> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
> >>> I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
> >>> request for it
>
> >> I already have a copy.
>
> So do I.
>
> > That's not a very interesting request.
>
> If it's the only request you've received (is it?), then it's the most
> interesting request you've received.

However, he said it wasn't a very interesting request - an absolute
evaluation, not a relative one.

Seth Breidbart

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Nov 21, 2005, 10:22:10 PM11/21/05
to
In article <87oe4e3...@gw.dd-b.net>,
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>Good, that's better. I remember the book fondly, along with When
>Harlie Was One. Back when David Gerrold could write.

The line going around MITSFS in the early 1970's was "What David
Gerrold doesn't know about computers would fill a book. He called it
_When Harlie Was One_."

Seth

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 21, 2005, 10:40:32 PM11/21/05
to
Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote:
> The line going around MITSFS in the early 1970's was "What David
> Gerrold doesn't know about computers would fill a book. He called
> it _When Harlie Was One_."

And what he doesn't know about finishing a series would fill
several books. Twelve years with no end in sight is too long for
a cliffhanger, especially when the whole of mankind is imperiled.

Zev Sero

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Nov 21, 2005, 11:11:08 PM11/21/05
to
Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote:

>>The line going around MITSFS in the early 1970's was "What David
>>Gerrold doesn't know about computers would fill a book. He called
>>it _When Harlie Was One_."

> And what he doesn't know about finishing a series would fill
> several books. Twelve years with no end in sight is too long for
> a cliffhanger, especially when the whole of mankind is imperiled.

If you're talking about the War Against the Chtorr, I heard him say in
1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that series,
because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't think of a way
out.

Now, talk about Don Knuth.

And wasn't the Alvin series supposed to be 7 books too?

--
Zev Sero Security and liberty are like beer and TV. They go
z...@sero.name well together, but are completely different concepts.
- James Lileks

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 21, 2005, 11:21:28 PM11/21/05
to
Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> If you're talking about the War Against the Chtorr, I heard him
> say in 1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that
> series, because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't
> think of a way out.

According to http://www.chtorr.com/, which is owned by the author, and
was last updated last year, a fifth book is in the works.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Nov 21, 2005, 11:33:24 PM11/21/05
to
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:dlttsd$pu$1...@panix1.panix.com:

> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
>> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>>> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
>>>> I will ship it to the person who either makes the most interesting
>>>> request for it
>
>>> I already have a copy.
>
> So do I.
>
>> That's not a very interesting request.
>
> If it's the only request you've received (is it?), then it's the most
> interesting request you've received.

He also posted it on his LiveJournal, where I responded not merely by
saying that I already had a copy, but by including a usericon showing me
and David Gerrold in a Westercon Masquerade from, I think, 1969.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

Damien Neil

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Nov 22, 2005, 1:34:39 AM11/22/05
to
Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> If you're talking about the War Against the Chtorr, I heard him say in
> 1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that series,
> because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't think of a way
> out.

Huh. That's refreshingly honest.

I can think of three ways out:

- We all get eaten by worms.
- Some of us flee into space, and the rest get eaten by worms.
- The Chtorran ecology, when left alone, turns out to develop into a
complex intelligence which is willing and able to converse with us. It
then feeds us to the worms.

- Damien

Mark Atwood

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Nov 22, 2005, 2:07:56 AM11/22/05
to
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>> If it's the only request you've received (is it?), then it's the most
>> interesting request you've received.
>
> He also posted it on his LiveJournal

And also several LJ communities that I am a member of.

Mark Atwood

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Nov 22, 2005, 2:10:55 AM11/22/05
to
Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> writes:
> 1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that series,
> because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't think of a way
> out.
>
> Now, talk about Don Knuth.

As it happens, Volume 4 is under actual construction and review.

I am part of a group who has been intensivly studying Knuth's tAoCP.
After a year of hard work, we are about a quarter the way thru Volume
1.

(That portion is, however, possibly the slowest going section, given
that it lays out *all* the math the rest of the books will use, and
also lays out the MIX machine, machine code, and assembly language.)

Alan Braggins

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Nov 22, 2005, 6:51:28 AM11/22/05
to
In article <m2hda5t...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com>, Mark Atwood wrote:
>
>As it happens, Volume 4 is under actual construction and review.
>
>I am part of a group who has been intensivly studying Knuth's tAoCP.
>After a year of hard work, we are about a quarter the way thru Volume
>1.
>
>(That portion is, however, possibly the slowest going section, given
>that it lays out *all* the math the rest of the books will use, and
>also lays out the MIX machine, machine code, and assembly language.)

Though Volume 4 is going to replace MIX with MMIX (and volumes 1-3 are
going to be revised to use it).
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/mmix.html

Nancy Lebovitz

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Nov 22, 2005, 8:10:27 AM11/22/05
to
In article <neild-usenet4-3BF...@news.newsguy.com>,

A fourth, which I didn't come up with: the Chtorran ecology has a
puffball life cycle. It grows, goes to seed, and dies locally.

This strikes me as possible though not plausible, and it lets the
human race survive.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".

Mark Atwood

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Nov 22, 2005, 1:51:24 PM11/22/05
to
ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Alan Braggins) writes:
> In article <m2hda5t...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com>, Mark Atwood wrote:
>>I am part of a group who has been intensivly studying Knuth's tAoCP.
...

>>also lays out the MIX machine, machine code, and assembly language.)
>
> Though Volume 4 is going to replace MIX with MMIX (and volumes 1-3 are
> going to be revised to use it).

Which we are aware of. It make's studying MIX's curious and archaic
features more than a little bit annoying. (I mean, COME ON, implied
multiple radix? No stack? Subroutine return via self-modifying code?!)

David Dyer-Bennet

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Nov 22, 2005, 3:13:11 PM11/22/05
to
Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> writes:

> ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Alan Braggins) writes:
> > In article <m2hda5t...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com>, Mark Atwood wrote:
> >>I am part of a group who has been intensivly studying Knuth's tAoCP.
> ...
> >>also lays out the MIX machine, machine code, and assembly language.)
> >
> > Though Volume 4 is going to replace MIX with MMIX (and volumes 1-3 are
> > going to be revised to use it).
>
> Which we are aware of. It make's studying MIX's curious and archaic
> features more than a little bit annoying. (I mean, COME ON, implied
> multiple radix? No stack? Subroutine return via self-modifying code?!)

I think the fourth architecture I programmed at the assembly level
actually had some hardware stack support. That was quite a
breakthrough at the time, many people thought it was a big step
forward (we were still working *into* CISC architectures). That was
the PDP-11. I seem to remember simulating it on the PDP-8, using
macros named after the PDP-10 instructions. This was right around
when TaoCP was first coming out (1968-73 for the first 3), and he'd
started working on them more than 5 years before that as I remember
it.

Kevin J. Maroney

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Nov 24, 2005, 10:16:07 PM11/24/05
to
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 04:11:08 GMT, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>>The line going around MITSFS in the early 1970's was "What David
>>>Gerrold doesn't know about computers would fill a book. He called
>>>it _When Harlie Was One_."
>
>> And what he doesn't know about finishing a series would fill
>> several books. Twelve years with no end in sight is too long for
>> a cliffhanger, especially when the whole of mankind is imperiled.
>
>If you're talking about the War Against the Chtorr, I heard him say in
>1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that series,
>because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't think of a way
>out.

New Cthorr books are due from cTor Books very soon--I've seen the
manuscript of the next one.

>And wasn't the Alvin series supposed to be 7 books too?

Card has varied in his claims of the number of books in the series. At
one point, he apparently envisioned it as three volumes, then as five,
then six. Volume seven is not out yet, but has been mentioned as the
final volume. That's not counting the two novellas in the Legends
anthologies which span the end of volume five and the start of volume
six; I haven't read the series since volume two, but I understand that
the novellas cover some fairly important material which should not
have been left out of volume six.

--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.

David Goldfarb

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Nov 25, 2005, 4:47:05 AM11/25/05
to
In article <cf0do1hpu12lcvq0u...@4ax.com>,

Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:
>That's not counting the two novellas in the Legends
>anthologies which span the end of volume five and the start of volume
>six; I haven't read the series since volume two, but I understand that
>the novellas cover some fairly important material which should not
>have been left out of volume six.

Almost right: the story in _Legends_ is independent material -- worth
reading, but not essential. It's the one in _Legends 2_ that should be
read before starting _The Crystal City_.

--
David Goldfarb |"Actually, I just enjoy bursting into flames...
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | You should try it sometime...relieves a lot
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | of stress."
| -- Jen Hill on rec.arts.tv.mst3k

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 25, 2005, 8:34:52 PM11/25/05
to
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> It's the one in _Legends 2_ that should be read before starting
> _The Crystal City_.

At least two authors have written novels named _Crystal City_. Oddly,
none have written novels named _Pentagon City_ or _Reagan National
Airport_.

"The author's 'Blue Line' series, a trilogy of trilogy of trilogies
(i.e. 27 volumes), a true tour de force, begins with the melodiously
named _Largo Town Center_ and concludes with the triumphant
_Franconia-Springfield_. Along the way is the depressing _Arlington
Cemetery_, and the dry and dusty _Smithsonian_. Some of the middle
works in the series are shared-world novels with the authors of the
'Yellow Line' series and 'Orange Line' series. It's ingenious how
it all manages to work together."

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 26, 2005, 2:38:47 PM11/26/05
to
Damien Neil <neild-...@misago.org> wrote:
> Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>> If you're talking about the War Against the Chtorr, I heard him
>> say in 1993 that there weren't likely to be any more books in that
>> series, because he'd written himself into a corner and couldn't
>> think of a way out.

> Huh. That's refreshingly honest.

The author's website, http://www.chtorr.com/, says, "A fifth book is
in the works." The website was last updated in 2004.

> I can think of three ways out:

> - We all get eaten by worms.
> - Some of us flee into space, and the rest get eaten by worms.
> - The Chtorran ecology, when left alone, turns out to develop into a
> complex intelligence which is willing and able to converse with us.
> It then feeds us to the worms.

Right. It's okay if mankind doesn't survive. I just want to know
what happens. I have my own ideas about the nature of the worms, and
I want to know if I'm right.

Wim Lewis

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Nov 26, 2005, 6:49:08 PM11/26/05
to
In article <m2hda5t...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com>,
Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:

>Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> writes:
>> Now, talk about Don Knuth.
>
>As it happens, Volume 4 is under actual construction and review.

And preliminary publication; you can buy individual fascicles. Eventually
their contents will be revised and bound into Volume 4.

(Honestly, I posted this message just to have an opportunity to use
the word "fascicle".)

--
Wim Lewis <wi...@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1

Nancy Lebovitz

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Nov 28, 2005, 9:13:13 AM11/28/05
to
In article <dmadk7$dfh$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Right. It's okay if mankind doesn't survive. I just want to know
>what happens. I have my own ideas about the nature of the worms, and
>I want to know if I'm right.

What are your ideas?

Matthew B. Tepper

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Nov 28, 2005, 10:40:18 AM11/28/05
to
Gesundheit!

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 29, 2005, 10:09:29 PM11/29/05
to
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@panix.com> wrote:
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Right. It's okay if mankind doesn't survive. I just want to know
>> what happens. I have my own ideas about the nature of the worms,
>> and I want to know if I'm right.

> What are your ideas?

There's no intelligence behind the infestations, just countless eons
of Darwinian evolution. The infestation is wonderfully adapted
to wipe out native planetary ecologies such as ours, and to then
sporulate and spread to other solar systems. It will turn out that
the universe is far older than 13.7 billion years. In such a young
universe, folks like us would probably be safe, but in a vastly older
universe such infestations are certain to evolve, spread, and trash
everything.

Nancy Lebovitz

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Nov 30, 2005, 3:33:53 AM11/30/05
to
In article <dmj559$1l8$1...@panix1.panix.com>,

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Right. It's okay if mankind doesn't survive. I just want to know
>>> what happens. I have my own ideas about the nature of the worms,
>>> and I want to know if I'm right.
>
>> What are your ideas?
>
>There's no intelligence behind the infestations, just countless eons
>of Darwinian evolution. The infestation is wonderfully adapted
>to wipe out native planetary ecologies such as ours, and to then
>sporulate and spread to other solar systems. It will turn out that
>the universe is far older than 13.7 billion years. In such a young
>universe, folks like us would probably be safe, but in a vastly older
>universe such infestations are certain to evolve, spread, and trash
>everything.

That seems consistant with the books. I think the only hope for the
human race is that the alien infestation has the life cycle of a puff
ball which dies back locally after it seeds. This doesn't seem likely
--why doesn't it leave spores on earth? However, there is such a thing
as luck, and maybe we got hit with one of the less destructive
infestations.

There's certainly no way to clean the earth of Chtorran lifeforms.

Damien Neil

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Nov 30, 2005, 3:59:39 AM11/30/05
to
nan...@panix.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
> That seems consistant with the books. I think the only hope for the
> human race is that the alien infestation has the life cycle of a puff
> ball which dies back locally after it seeds. This doesn't seem likely
> --why doesn't it leave spores on earth? However, there is such a thing
> as luck, and maybe we got hit with one of the less destructive
> infestations.
>
> There's certainly no way to clean the earth of Chtorran lifeforms.

Realistically, I see the following endings as possible:
- Humanity dies out.
- Humanity runs away, the worms get to keep the planet.
- Humanity becomes a part of the Chtorran ecosystem, as worm food.
- Humanity becomes a part of the Chtorran ecosystem. We eat the worms.
- Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.

Our best hope is to find an ecological niche that doesn't involve worms
eating us, and fill it. Unfortunately, any such niche is presumably
already filled by Chtorrans that are nastier than we are. (That's
almost the definition of Chtorran lifeforms: Nastier than we are.)

- Damien

Nancy Lebovitz

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Nov 30, 2005, 7:44:09 AM11/30/05
to
In article <neild-usenet4-7C2...@news.newsguy.com>,

Damien Neil <neild-...@misago.org> wrote:
> nan...@panix.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>> That seems consistant with the books. I think the only hope for the
>> human race is that the alien infestation has the life cycle of a puff
>> ball which dies back locally after it seeds. This doesn't seem likely
>> --why doesn't it leave spores on earth? However, there is such a thing
>> as luck, and maybe we got hit with one of the less destructive
>> infestations.
>>
>> There's certainly no way to clean the earth of Chtorran lifeforms.
>
>Realistically, I see the following endings as possible:
> - Humanity dies out.
> - Humanity runs away, the worms get to keep the planet.

How pervasive are Chtorran microrganisms?

> - Humanity becomes a part of the Chtorran ecosystem, as worm food.
> - Humanity becomes a part of the Chtorran ecosystem. We eat the worms.

Humanity becomes part of the Chtorran ecosystem. We live with the worms.

> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.

Sounds good to me.

>
>Our best hope is to find an ecological niche that doesn't involve worms
>eating us, and fill it. Unfortunately, any such niche is presumably
>already filled by Chtorrans that are nastier than we are. (That's
>almost the definition of Chtorran lifeforms: Nastier than we are.)

Sea Wasp

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Nov 30, 2005, 8:26:40 AM11/30/05
to
Damien Neil wrote:

> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.
>

Not all. This, to me, is the only reasonable ending. But that's
because I know Gerrold is heavily RAH influenced and JWC influenced,
and that means we should win.

"Win" can of course include "Humanity manages to REALLY establish
communication with the intelligence behind the Chtorr, and we come to
a peaceable arrangement" as opposed to "we wipe the filthy worms out".


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

Keith F. Lynch

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Nov 30, 2005, 8:25:06 PM11/30/05
to
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@panix.com> wrote:
> That seems consistant with the books. I think the only hope for the
> human race is that the alien infestation has the life cycle of a
> puff ball which dies back locally after it seeds. This doesn't seem
> likely --why doesn't it leave spores on earth?

I agree that that isn't at all likely.

> However, there is such a thing as luck, and maybe we got hit with
> one of the less destructive infestations.

It's already clear that we didn't. Of course it's possible that
something even more virulent will come along and displace the Chtorran
ecology, but considering the depths of time and the non-uniqueness of
the present, that isn't likely to happen soon. And wouldn't benefit
us at all even if it did.

> There's certainly no way to clean the earth of Chtorran lifeforms.

No way that doesn't involve completely sterilizing the planet, anyhow.
And even if we did completely sterilize the planet, it would just
promptly get reinfested from dormant spores floating around in the
solar system.

David Goldfarb

unread,
Dec 1, 2005, 4:28:25 AM12/1/05
to
In article <438DA8DF...@obvioussgeinc.com>,

Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
>Damien Neil wrote:
>
>> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.
>>
>
> Not all. This, to me, is the only reasonable ending. But that's
>because I know Gerrold is heavily RAH influenced and JWC influenced,
>and that means we should win.
>
> "Win" can of course include "Humanity manages to REALLY establish
>communication with the intelligence behind the Chtorr, and we come to
>a peaceable arrangement" as opposed to "we wipe the filthy worms out".

I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)

--
David Goldfarb |"Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | It wastes your time and annoys the pedant."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Lois McMaster Bujold

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing

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Dec 1, 2005, 5:13:54 AM12/1/05
to
In article <dmmfnp$p4c$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) writes:
>In article <438DA8DF...@obvioussgeinc.com>,
>Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
>>Damien Neil wrote:
>>
>>> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.
>>>
>>
>> Not all. This, to me, is the only reasonable ending. But that's
>>because I know Gerrold is heavily RAH influenced and JWC influenced,
>>and that means we should win.
>>
>> "Win" can of course include "Humanity manages to REALLY establish
>>communication with the intelligence behind the Chtorr, and we come to
>>a peaceable arrangement" as opposed to "we wipe the filthy worms out".
>
>I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
>Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)

I don't think _I've_ complained about it here, but it did piss me off. (I'm
personally fond of Barbara and think she's a lovely writer; known her since the
early late 70s when we were both in LA.) Nonetheless, the solution to the
big problem in the third book is something that could have been done in the
first book if they'd just thought of it. Aargh.

-- Alan

Sea Wasp

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Dec 1, 2005, 6:45:34 AM12/1/05
to
David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <438DA8DF...@obvioussgeinc.com>,
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
>
>>Damien Neil wrote:
>>
>>
>>> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.
>>>
>>
>> Not all. This, to me, is the only reasonable ending. But that's
>>because I know Gerrold is heavily RAH influenced and JWC influenced,
>>and that means we should win.
>>
>> "Win" can of course include "Humanity manages to REALLY establish
>>communication with the intelligence behind the Chtorr, and we come to
>>a peaceable arrangement" as opposed to "we wipe the filthy worms out".
>
>
> I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
> Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)
>

No, wasn't me. I liked that one, though I still don't know if Ingold
made the overall best decision long-term. Admittedly, it doesn't look
like he had too much choice, unless he could pop across the Void and
get a few starship assault forces to help.

Nels E. Satterlund

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Dec 1, 2005, 12:20:38 PM12/1/05
to

Isn't that true to many solutions in hind sight?

Nels


--
Nels E Satterlund I don't speak for the company, specially here
Ne...@Starstream.net <-- Use this address for personal Email
My Lurkers motto: I read much better and faster, than I type.

David Friedman

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Dec 1, 2005, 2:02:08 PM12/1/05
to
In article <dmmfnp$p4c$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:

> In article <438DA8DF...@obvioussgeinc.com>,
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
> >Damien Neil wrote:
> >
> >> - Humanity wins, we all throw the last book against the wall.
> >>
> >
> > Not all. This, to me, is the only reasonable ending. But that's
> >because I know Gerrold is heavily RAH influenced and JWC influenced,
> >and that means we should win.
> >
> > "Win" can of course include "Humanity manages to REALLY establish
> >communication with the intelligence behind the Chtorr, and we come to
> >a peaceable arrangement" as opposed to "we wipe the filthy worms out".
>
> I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
> Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)

That was the one where the wizards provide the Dark transport to
somewhere they would rather be, thus solving the problem for both sides?
I thought it was a fine, if unconventional, solution.

But then, I'm an economist.

--
Remove NOPSAM to email
www.daviddfriedman.com

Wim Lewis

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Dec 1, 2005, 5:23:48 PM12/1/05
to
In article <dmk6qp$k3q$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@panix.com> wrote:
> How pervasive are Chtorran microrganisms?

IIRC (and it's been a while since I read the books), very. Apparently
the Chtorran ecosystem had been busily replacing Earth's on a microbial
level for a little while before the large, multicellular infestations
were noticed.

David Goldfarb

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Dec 2, 2005, 6:04:41 AM12/2/05
to
In article <ddfr-BA2E45.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,

David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <dmmfnp$p4c$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:
[addressing Sea Wasp]

>> I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
>> Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)
>
>That was the one where the wizards provide the Dark transport to
>somewhere they would rather be, thus solving the problem for both sides?
>I thought it was a fine, if unconventional, solution.
>
>But then, I'm an economist.

That's the one. Given that Sea Wasp denies complaining, I'm inclined
to think that I was confusing him with Mike.

In retrospect, it seems to me that Hambly was trying to get us to think
during that climax that Ingold was planning to send the Dark to *our*
world, and then have it be a slight twist that he was sending them
to a third dimension. If so, she failed with me...that didn't occur
to me while I was first reading it.

--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | tonight's show...and they were six of the
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | toughest clown midgets I've ever seen."
| -- Billy Crystal

Sea Wasp

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Dec 2, 2005, 7:58:53 AM12/2/05
to
David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <ddfr-BA2E45.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <dmmfnp$p4c$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:
>
> [addressing Sea Wasp]
>
>>>I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
>>>Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)
>>
>>That was the one where the wizards provide the Dark transport to
>>somewhere they would rather be, thus solving the problem for both sides?
>>I thought it was a fine, if unconventional, solution.
>>
>>But then, I'm an economist.
>
>
> That's the one. Given that Sea Wasp denies complaining, I'm inclined
> to think that I was confusing him with Mike.
>
> In retrospect, it seems to me that Hambly was trying to get us to think
> during that climax that Ingold was planning to send the Dark to *our*
> world, and then have it be a slight twist that he was sending them
> to a third dimension. If so, she failed with me...that didn't occur
> to me while I was first reading it.
>

Worked exactly with me. Or rather, it worked for me to believe that
that was what OTHER people believed; I was optimistic enough to
believe that Ingold wouldn't do THAT.

Michael Alan Chary

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Dec 2, 2005, 11:25:50 AM12/2/05
to
In article <dmp9o9$1k0l$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,

David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <ddfr-BA2E45.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
>David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>In article <dmmfnp$p4c$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>> gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:
>[addressing Sea Wasp]
>>> I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
>>> Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)
>>
>>That was the one where the wizards provide the Dark transport to
>>somewhere they would rather be, thus solving the problem for both sides?
>>I thought it was a fine, if unconventional, solution.
>>
>>But then, I'm an economist.
>
>That's the one. Given that Sea Wasp denies complaining, I'm inclined
>to think that I was confusing him with Mike.

He should sue...

>
>In retrospect, it seems to me that Hambly was trying to get us to think
>during that climax that Ingold was planning to send the Dark to *our*
>world, and then have it be a slight twist that he was sending them
>to a third dimension. If so, she failed with me...that didn't occur
>to me while I was first reading it.

My issue was, essentially, what happens to the third world?

--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons

Sea Wasp

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Dec 2, 2005, 9:27:32 PM12/2/05
to

The third world countries don't matter!

Seriously, my impression was that Ingold sent them to a world where
there were no sentient natives. Therefore, no problem.

Kevin J. Maroney

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Dec 4, 2005, 1:16:58 AM12/4/05
to
[Spoiler of tone, but not of specific content, for Barbara Hambly's
early work, "The Darwath Trilogy".


On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:28:25 +0000 (UTC), gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
(David Goldfarb) wrote, to Sea Wasp:


>I seem to recall someone complaining about the resolution of Barbara
>Hambly's Darwath trilogy. Was that you? (It might have been Mike Chary.)

To my surprise, I don't seem to have ever posted about the subject to
Usenet. My take on the Darwath trilogy was not that the happy ending
was unreasonable, but that it fit poorly with the tone of the series,
especially of the final novel. My twenty-years-ago memory of it was
that the novel was "dark, more dark, darker still, yep, really dark,
cold too, dark dark dark forboding doom gloom utter inpentrable
darkne--oops, happy ending yay bye gotta catch a bus!" [I'm sure I
wouldn't have phrased it quite that way at the time.]

The people I discussed the novel with at the time generally agreed
with me, but I don't know how widespread that reaction was.

Nancy Lebovitz

unread,
Dec 4, 2005, 9:29:41 AM12/4/05
to
In article <3c25p19be4tcsh8fa...@4ax.com>,

Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:

That's about how I felt about it, too. I'm not sure that I felt the
happy ending was that badly skimped, but it didn't seem to fit with
universe suggested in the rest of the story.

There's a similar effect, only more so, in her possession by/addiction
to demons tetrology. (OK, I googled. It's _Dragonsbane_, _Dragonshadow_,
_Knight of the Demon Queen_, _Dragonstar_.) It went bleak, depressing,
horrifying, bleak, depressing, horrifying (repeat), better have a happy
ending so all my readers don't kill themselves.

Zev Sero

unread,
Dec 4, 2005, 4:01:03 PM12/4/05
to
Nancy Lebovitz wrote:

> There's a similar effect, only more so, in her possession by/addiction
> to demons tetrology. (OK, I googled. It's _Dragonsbane_, _Dragonshadow_,
> _Knight of the Demon Queen_, _Dragonstar_.) It went bleak, depressing,
> horrifying, bleak, depressing, horrifying (repeat), better have a happy
> ending so all my readers don't kill themselves.

I like the way David Feintuch handled that at the end of Fisherman's Hope.
The 4-book series ends with a suitably depressing "My Lord, why hast thou
forsaken me". To end it any other way would have been horrible, and
ruined the entire series. Then comes an epilogue, letting the reader know
that things got better, they really did; Seafort's life went on and so
should yours, so please put down that box cutter and roll down your sleeve.

--
Zev Sero Security and liberty are like beer and TV. They go
z...@sero.name well together, but are completely different concepts.
- James Lileks

Michael Alan Chary

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:59:59 PM12/6/05
to
In article <439102E5...@obvioussgeinc.com>,

Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
>Michael Alan Chary wrote:
>> In article <dmp9o9$1k0l$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>> David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>>>In retrospect, it seems to me that Hambly was trying to get us to think
>>>during that climax that Ingold was planning to send the Dark to *our*
>>>world, and then have it be a slight twist that he was sending them
>>>to a third dimension. If so, she failed with me...that didn't occur
>>>to me while I was first reading it.
>>
>>
>> My issue was, essentially, what happens to the third world?
>>
>
> The third world countries don't matter!
>
> Seriously, my impression was that Ingold sent them to a world where
>there were no sentient natives. Therefore, no problem.

I still have ethical problems with it. Besides, it didn't fit the rest of
the story.

Sea Wasp

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 6:30:04 PM12/6/05
to
Michael Alan Chary wrote:
> In article <439102E5...@obvioussgeinc.com>,
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
>
>>Michael Alan Chary wrote:
>>
>>>In article <dmp9o9$1k0l$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>>David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>>>In retrospect, it seems to me that Hambly was trying to get us to think
>>>>during that climax that Ingold was planning to send the Dark to *our*
>>>>world, and then have it be a slight twist that he was sending them
>>>>to a third dimension. If so, she failed with me...that didn't occur
>>>>to me while I was first reading it.
>>>
>>>
>>>My issue was, essentially, what happens to the third world?
>>>
>>
>> The third world countries don't matter!
>>
>> Seriously, my impression was that Ingold sent them to a world where
>>there were no sentient natives. Therefore, no problem.
>
>
> I still have ethical problems with it.


Such as...?

> Besides, it didn't fit the rest of
> the story.

*shrug* fit perfectly well for me. I expect a good ending, I got one.

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