AKICIF: Dangers of Procion dyes
Karen Lofstrom
during meditation retreats. The last step is new cleaning cloths. We've
been using terry washcloths, which are starting to look ragged and funky.
I bought forty-two white cotton waffle-weave dishcloths; the dishcloths
need to be dyed brown. So I bought some Procion dye too. Ginger, our
temple-keeper, was going to help me dye the cloths.
I took everything over this morning. While I was talking to someone else,
Ginger was reading the instructions on the dye. She becomes very upset:
"Karen, this label says that the dye causes cancer! We can't use it! We'll
poison everyone!" I tried to explain that the dye was dangerous only
during the process of dyeing, especially when it was in powder form, and
that once the cloth was dyed, it was perfectly safe. Ginger just couldn't
HEAR that. "But it causes cancer! It will give us all cancer!" She doesn't
understand that dyeing is a chemical reaction and once the reaction is
over and the excess dyestuff is washed out, the cloth is safe.
"But Ginger, you go into a fabric store and cheerfully buy fabrics dyed
with dyes that are even worse than this? What's the problem?"
"But it will give us all cancer!"
I was tired and hungry and short-tempered; I grabbed the bag of dishcloths
and stomped out of there.
How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
that they're SAFE afterwards?
Aaargh aargh aargh! Hippie air-head Luddites! Aargh!
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole."
-- Evelyn Waugh
Doug Wickstrom
<11gimrt...@corp.supernews.com>
lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
>How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
>chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
>zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
>that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
>that they're SAFE afterwards?
You don't.
Dye the stuff at home, bring it in, and don't say anything.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"Honto no ii katana wa saya ni haitteiru." --Tsubaki Sanjuro
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Kip Williams
> "But Ginger, you go into a fabric store and cheerfully buy fabrics dyed
> with dyes that are even worse than this? What's the problem?"
>
> "But it will give us all cancer!"
"Blah blah blah Ginger, blah blah blah blah blah..."
Sorry, just wanted to say it. (Some friends of ours were pleased that I
guessed they named their dog Ginger after that Far Side cartoon.)
Kip W
Daniel Silevitch
> How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
> chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
> zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
> that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
> that they're SAFE afterwards?
Find some empty bottles, print up some labels reading "Happy organic sun
dye", and (carefully) pour the powder into the new bottle.
Alternatively, either do the job yourself or find a less paranoid
assistant.
In any case, I assume that you will take whatever safety precautions are
recommended. Non-permeable gloves are probably a minimum, and a face
mask might be a good idea if the powder is fine enough to mist easily.
-dms
Kevin G. Rhoads
You don't. Those who have decided NOT to listen will not hear.
Nancy Lebovitz
View Ginger and/or your anger as a meditation challenge? I'm not saying
that you can necessarily convince Ginger or make the anger go away, but
maybe you can notice your breathing while you're thinking about the
situation and see if anything changes.
Could the towels be dyed with tea or something else non-frightening?
I don't know what Ginger wears, but I believe the more garish tye-dyes
are dyed with Procyon.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Ron Henry
news:11gimrt...@corp.supernews.com...
> How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
> chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
> zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
> that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
> that they're SAFE afterwards?
Obviously, you don't; you can't. Sometimes you be flexible and take a
compassionate course of action based on what makes another person
comfortable rather than insist on your own reasoned opinions.
This sounds like an opportunity for you, in the context of compassionate
non-judgmental Buddhist action.
Ron Henry
Mark Atwood
>
> How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
> chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
> zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
> that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
> that they're SAFE afterwards?
>
> Aaargh aargh aargh! Hippie air-head Luddites! Aargh!
Tell her she can dye her own personal cloth by going out and dipping
it in the mud.
--
Mark Atwood When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@mark.atwood.name you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus
Mark Atwood
>
> Obviously, you don't; you can't. Sometimes you be flexible and take a
> compassionate course of action based on what makes another person
> comfortable rather than insist on your own reasoned opinions.
That being the fundamental problem with being motivated by short-term
compassion.
There is NO END to what the willfully ignorant will insist on not
allowing to be done. If you give in even ONCE, they will seize it,
and then demand even more inaction next time.
Uninvolve her in the process.
Mark Atwood
>
> This sounds like an opportunity for you, in the context of compassionate
> non-judgmental Buddhist action.
What's wrong with being judgemental?
Is there really a difference between "non-judgmental", "no judgement",
and "poor judgement"? I don't think so.
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
>"Ron Henry" <ronh...@clarityconnect.com> writes:
>>
>> Obviously, you don't; you can't. Sometimes you be flexible and take a
>> compassionate course of action based on what makes another person
>> comfortable rather than insist on your own reasoned opinions.
>
>That being the fundamental problem with being motivated by short-term
>compassion.
>
>There is NO END to what the willfully ignorant will insist on not
>allowing to be done. If you give in even ONCE, they will seize it,
>and then demand even more inaction next time.
>
>Uninvolve her in the process.
Yes, I think this is the simplest and most practical course.
Take the towels home, dye them, bring them back, and (if you're
willing to go for "necessary and kind but not true") tell Ginger
you dyed them with tea.
Or you could dye them with tea, depending on how dark a brown
you want. If light beige is sufficient, tea will do it.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Ulrika O'Brien
Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> Could the towels be dyed with tea or something else non-frightening?
Excellent idea. A strong tea dye (possibly repeated) ought to produce
a pale brown color. I know Bjo Trimble's Griffin Dye Works
(http://www.griffindyeworks.com/) also sells a variety of natural dyes,
and single color kits include mordants and safety equipment and so
forth. But, on the whole, practicing a bit of Pi Bu* on Ginger might
be called for.
*Ancient martial art involving whalloping the offending person over the
head with a PItcher of BUd.
Kevin G. Rhoads
>Take the towels home, dye them, bring them back, and (if you're
>willing to go for "necessary and kind but not true") tell Ginger
>you dyed them with tea.
Or add some tea to the other dye, then the "lie" becomes true,
just not the whole truth.
Randolph Fritz
> "Ron Henry" <ronh...@clarityconnect.com> writes:
>>
>> This sounds like an opportunity for you, in the context of compassionate
>> non-judgmental Buddhist action.
>
> What's wrong with being judgemental?
>
It risks bad karma. 'sides, it often makes a fool of the would-be
judge.
Randolph
Mark Atwood
>
> Or you could dye them with tea, depending on how dark a brown
> you want. If light beige is sufficient, tea will do it.
I am willing to bet that if one was to extract from the tea the
compounds that do the coloring, and condense them down to the
concentration that the synethic dye would be at, it would be at least
as carcinogenic.
I am further willing to bet that using tea will cost more, both in
direct end-point outlay, and in net ecological impact. (Growing,
harvesting, drying, shipping, etc.)
Mark Atwood
So judge carefully.
It's no more likely to be a foolish position than non-judging.
Ulrika O'Brien
Mark Atwood wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >
> > Or you could dye them with tea, depending on how dark a brown
> > you want. If light beige is sufficient, tea will do it.
>
> I am willing to bet that if one was to extract from the tea the
> compounds that do the coloring, and condense them down to the
> concentration that the synethic dye would be at, it would be at least
> as carcinogenic.
>
> I am further willing to bet that using tea will cost more, both in
> direct end-point outlay, and in net ecological impact. (Growing,
> harvesting, drying, shipping, etc.)
Yes, I'm sure you're willing to bet, especially when nothing's on the
line, but on what basis besides rectal extraction?
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>I'm replacing the linens used in our zendo's bowl sets (oryoki), used
>during meditation retreats. The last step is new cleaning cloths. We've
>been using terry washcloths, which are starting to look ragged and funky.
>I bought forty-two white cotton waffle-weave dishcloths; the dishcloths
>need to be dyed brown. So I bought some Procion dye too. Ginger, our
>temple-keeper, was going to help me dye the cloths.
If they just need to be brown, you can use strong tea.
>I took everything over this morning. While I was talking to someone else,
>Ginger was reading the instructions on the dye. She becomes very upset:
>"Karen, this label says that the dye causes cancer! We can't use it! We'll
>poison everyone!" I tried to explain that the dye was dangerous only
>during the process of dyeing, especially when it was in powder form, and
>that once the cloth was dyed, it was perfectly safe. Ginger just couldn't
>HEAR that. "But it causes cancer! It will give us all cancer!" She doesn't
>understand that dyeing is a chemical reaction and once the reaction is
>over and the excess dyestuff is washed out, the cloth is safe.
>
>"But Ginger, you go into a fabric store and cheerfully buy fabrics dyed
>with dyes that are even worse than this? What's the problem?"
>
>"But it will give us all cancer!"
>
>I was tired and hungry and short-tempered; I grabbed the bag of dishcloths
>and stomped out of there.
>
>How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
>chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the other
>zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read much)
>that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly used, but
>that they're SAFE afterwards?
>
>Aaargh aargh aargh! Hippie air-head Luddites! Aargh!
--
Marilee J. Layman
Linda McAllister
> Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
>>Could the towels be dyed with tea or something else non-frightening?
>
>
> Excellent idea. A strong tea dye (possibly repeated) ought to produce
> a pale brown color. I know Bjo Trimble's Griffin Dye Works
> (http://www.griffindyeworks.com/) also sells a variety of natural dyes,
> and single color kits include mordants and safety equipment and so
> forth.
Yeah, have her do some nice "safe" natural dyes, with metal salts as
mordants! Maybe do some traditional madder or indigo dyes - although I
think the reason my attempts at red came out more a pale peach was
'cause I was fresh out of sheep dung and rancid oil. And my neighbors
don't think much of having a urine vat around for blues. There's a
reason dyers used to live way out in the country.
I love Procion dyes. They're designed to bind to hydroxyl groups in
cellulose (e.g., cotton, linen, wood), as well as to hydroxyl groups in
water, which is why it has such a limited period of activity. That is,
once it bonds it tends to stay bonded. Wear a long-sleeved shirt,
gloves, and a face mask while mixing the stuff and you shouldn't have
any problems. I can testify from personal experience that the spent
dyebath does no harm to bamboo or crabgrass.
linda, currently wearing the orange socks I dyed to use up a bunch of
leftover Procion dyes
Linda McAllister
scotland - Su(sic) Griersonn - 1986
Turkey red:
1. Cleansing - wash cotton in a ley of barilla [impure sodium carbonate,
obtained by burning barilla ashes], pearl ash and quicklime, stong enogh
to float an egg
2. Gray Steep - 2 pails of sheeps dung soaked in 10 pails of strong
barilla water, to which was added oil of vitriol [sulfuric acid], gum
arabic, sal ammoniac and olive oil [some recipes specify the oil should
be rancid]. Tramp, steep for 24 hours, wring and dry. Repeat 3 times.
3. White steep - as above, but without dung
4. Gall steep - steep 24 hours in a gall solution
5 Alum steep - steep 24 hours than dry
6. Alum Steep, number 2 - as before,but finish by steeping for 6 hours
in the river, then dry
7. dyeing - for 10 lb of cotton the dyebath contained 2 galls ox blood,
28 pails of milk-warm water and 25 lb madder. Raise temp to boil over 1
hour, then boil for further hour, wash and dry
8. fixing steep - cotton soaked for 6 hous in dung and alkali. Wring
and dry
8. brightening steep - dyed coton was boiled for 2 hours in strong
solution of soap and barilla water
Note: All vessels must be copper or wood, as the slightest iron will
affect the color.
linda
Matt C.
news:11gimrt...@corp.supernews.com:
> How do I convince a hard-core ex-hippie who doesn't know diddly about
> chemistry (or any kind of science -- Ginger is unlike most of the
> other zendoids in that she doesn't have much formal education, or read
> much) that Procion dyes may be dangerous during dyeing, if carelessly
> used, but that they're SAFE afterwards?
>
> Aaargh aargh aargh! Hippie air-head Luddites! Aargh!
Sounds like the easiest thing would be to dye them yourself, present the
finished version to the group, and count on your peers to back you up if
Ginger makes a fuss.
If you don't want to disinclude her, you're just going to have to win the
argument. Explain what you're going to do, that you're going to take
proper safety precautions, and then don't give an inch. It is *not* a
rational argument, it is a contest of wills. Win it. (You said you're
an "Aspies", winning an argument with an irrational person would probably
be good for you in itself.)
IMO it is not ok to lie or deceive about how you dye the cloths, to
anybody.
Matt
Mark Atwood
> gloves, and a face mask while mixing the stuff and you shouldn't have
> any problems. I can testify from personal experience that the spent
> dyebath does no harm to bamboo or crabgrass.
Does the bamboo uptake the dye?
That would be *cool*, living weirdly colored bamboo.
Karen Lofstrom
Marilee J. Layman wrote:
> If they just need to be brown, you can use strong tea.
They have to be DARK brown, which I believe you can't do with tea. Perhaps
with walnut hulls, but that would be expensive and difficult, I believe.
Plus I've already bought the dang Procion and soda ash.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
---------------------------------------------------------------
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind--or never to have a mind.
How true that is." -- Mr. Edible Starchy Tuber Head
Tim McDaniel
Linda McAllister <l...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>Maybe do some traditional madder or indigo dyes - although I think
>the reason my attempts at red came out more a pale peach was 'cause I
>was fresh out of sheep dung and rancid oil. And my neighbors don't
>think much of having a urine vat around for blues.
And how many red-headed boys are about, anyway?
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <eNidnQ1-s72...@speakeasy.net>,
>Linda McAllister <l...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>>Maybe do some traditional madder or indigo dyes - although I think
>>the reason my attempts at red came out more a pale peach was 'cause I
>>was fresh out of sheep dung and rancid oil. And my neighbors don't
>>think much of having a urine vat around for blues.
>
>And how many red-headed boys are about, anyway?
I'm told that the best urine for woad- or indigo-dyeing comes
from pregnant women. So that a dyer once posted on the SCA group
that she was going to be running an indigo vat at Pennsic that
year, and if any pregnant women were going to be attending, would
they be willing to ... ?
The polite term, by the way, is "chamber lye."
Ulrika O'Brien
Linda McAllister wrote:
> Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
> > Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> >
> >>Could the towels be dyed with tea or something else non-frightening?
> >
> >
> > Excellent idea. A strong tea dye (possibly repeated) ought to produce
> > a pale brown color. I know Bjo Trimble's Griffin Dye Works
> > (http://www.griffindyeworks.com/) also sells a variety of natural dyes,
> > and single color kits include mordants and safety equipment and so
> > forth.
>
> Yeah, have her do some nice "safe" natural dyes, with metal salts as
> mordants!
Or, you know, not. Yes, lots of natural dyes and mordants are toxic,
or smelly or otherwise icky, but as mordants go, I believe that, for
instance, alum isn't especially poisonous and not a known carcinogen,
and if it's worth it to keep the peace (not a decision I can make) then
mazel tov.
> Maybe do some traditional madder or indigo dyes -
Last I checked, madder and indigo do not combine to produce brown, so
not especially relevant, I think.
> although I
> think the reason my attempts at red came out more a pale peach was
> 'cause I was fresh out of sheep dung and rancid oil. And my neighbors
> don't think much of having a urine vat around for blues. There's a
> reason dyers used to live way out in the country.
Yep, but this doesn't actually address the issue of carcinogenesis.
Karen Lofstrom
Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
> Yep, but this doesn't actually address the issue of carcinogenesis.
I actually did some googling on dye safety and apparently the danger comes
from the powdered form of the dye. It's ground exceedingly fine, so as to
dissolve readily. That means that even the lightest air-current is enough
to waft some into the air, where it can be breathed into the lungs, where
it might cause cancer. Aniline dyes are supposedly even worse, having been
proven to cause cancer. The dyes are dangerous before they're combined
with all the other chemicals to create the reaction that causes the dyes
to bond to the cloth.
The commercial solution is a special dye-measuring booth with a regulated
air-flow away from the measurer, who should also be wearing protective
clothing and a good respirator. Small-scale textile artists try to do the
measuring outside, with a light breeze blowing any particles away from
them.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cthulhu vs. a bunch of Nazis? Oh, I am sure *our* side would win hands
down!" -- Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Michael J. Lowrey
> linda, currently wearing the orange socks I dyed to use up a bunch of
> leftover Procion dyes
Truly a wise consumer!
--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
Linda McAllister
> Linda McAllister <l...@pensfa.org> writes:
>
>>gloves, and a face mask while mixing the stuff and you shouldn't have
>>any problems. I can testify from personal experience that the spent
>>dyebath does no harm to bamboo or crabgrass.
>
>
> Does the bamboo uptake the dye?
>
> That would be *cool*, living weirdly colored bamboo.
>
I was sorta hoping it would, but it doesn't seem to. It's very
uncooperative bamboo.
There are natural pink and blue bamboos, though. Well, they have
pinkish and bluish coatings on new growth, but I like pointing them out.
lm
Linda McAllister
Probably because of increased nutrient content, which feeds the beasties
that drive the fermentation process. There's some fairly sophisticated
biochemistry going on there, and, along with tapioca, it's one of those
things that makes me scratch me head and think, just how did anyone
figure this out? "Hey Mabel - let's take these leaves, let 'em rot,
then scrape this blue stuff off which we'll piss on and let sit around
in the sun until it turns a sickly green then we'll dip stuff in it!"
lm
Nels Satterlund
I read this to my wife and her comment was "I can imagine two drunk guys
hanging around and going - hey lets see what happens when I piss on this"
Nels
Paul Dormer
McAllister) wrote:
> along with tapioca, it's one of those
> things that makes me scratch me head and think, just how did anyone
> figure this out? "Hey Mabel - let's take these leaves, let 'em rot,
> then scrape this blue stuff off which we'll piss on and let sit around
> in the sun until it turns a sickly green then we'll dip stuff in it!"
Reminds me of a routine I saw a comic do on TV many years ago. He'd
discovered that haemorrhoid treatment was made with shark liver extract.
He posited someone walking a beach, his piles causing him agony, and
finding a dead shark. "I think I'll take a a handful of its liver and
stuff it up my arse."
Ulrika O'Brien
Linda McAllister wrote:
> Probably because of increased nutrient content, which feeds the beasties
> that drive the fermentation process. There's some fairly sophisticated
> biochemistry going on there, and, along with tapioca, it's one of those
> things that makes me scratch me head and think, just how did anyone
> figure this out?
In the case of tapioca, allegedly it was found to be edible when cooked
by a lost and starving missionary who meant to commit suicide but
couldn't face the stuff raw. Apparently it sustained him long enough
to find his way to human settlements again.
> "Hey Mabel - let's take these leaves, let 'em rot,
> then scrape this blue stuff off which we'll piss on and let sit around
> in the sun until it turns a sickly green then we'll dip stuff in it!"
Seems likeliest that someone dropped something on a spot where someone
or something had pissed on a patch of mouldering duff and the dropped
thing came up blue, and then the owner of the newly blue-spotted thing
backward engineered it.
Fugu is what makes me wonder.
Karen Lofstrom
Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
> Fugu is what makes me wonder.
Spoze that fugu was used in ninja assassination attempts (let's feed him
this poisonous fish and watch him die horribly!) and when it didn't work
reliably, ninja lab techs went to work figuring out how to make it work.
Fish without poison was merely a side-effect.
Well, it could have happened ...
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a mind like, um, what do you call it, one of those things that are
made of metal and grab animals by the leg ....
Keith F. Lynch
> Spoze that fugu was used in ninja assassination attempts (let's feed
> him this poisonous fish and watch him die horribly!) and when it
> didn't work reliably, ninja lab techs went to work figuring out how
> to make it work. Fish without poison was merely a side-effect.
I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
assassins weren't ninjas.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Mark Atwood
>
> I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
> fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
> assassins weren't ninjas.
I've heard a similar story, about a load of the New World crop called
"potatoes" that made it's way to some point in Europe. The local lord
grabbed the obviously good part, the greens, and threw away the root
tubers for the local poor folk to eat.
Result: A bunch of well fed poor folks, and a dead household in the
lord's house.
Even today, there are a couple a people a year who get poisoned because
they left some potatoes in the sunlight for a week or so before mashing
them.
Daniel Silevitch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>>
>> I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
>> fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
>> assassins weren't ninjas.
>
> I've heard a similar story, about a load of the New World crop called
> "potatoes" that made it's way to some point in Europe. The local lord
> grabbed the obviously good part, the greens, and threw away the root
> tubers for the local poor folk to eat.
>
> Result: A bunch of well fed poor folks, and a dead household in the
> lord's house.
A more modern story that I heard somewhere was about the first sample
shipment of kiwifruit from NZ back to Britain. Supposedly, a crate of
fruit arrived at the Agriculture Ministry, with no forewarning. This
happened in the middle of an IRA scare, and to paranoid guards, the
fruit bear some resemblance to grenades...
-dms
Keith F. Lynch
> I've heard a similar story, about a load of the New World crop
> called "potatoes" that made it's way to some point in Europe. The
> local lord grabbed the obviously good part, the greens, and threw
> away the root tubers for the local poor folk to eat.
> Result: A bunch of well fed poor folks, and a dead household in the
> lord's house.
> Even today, there are a couple a people a year who get poisoned
> because they left some potatoes in the sunlight for a week or so
> before mashing them.
I'm skeptical. Solanine is intensely bitter, and not all that
poisonous. More likely, they would have spit out the first bite of
the potato greens. And if they forced themselves to eat it despite
the vile taste, they would have suffered nothing worse than a couple
days of vomiting and diarrhea.
Bernard Peek
<m...@mark.atwood.name> writes
>"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>>
>> I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
>> fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
>> assassins weren't ninjas.
>
>I've heard a similar story, about a load of the New World crop called
>"potatoes" that made it's way to some point in Europe. The local lord
>grabbed the obviously good part, the greens, and threw away the root
>tubers for the local poor folk to eat.
Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous. They
were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish. I know that the
change in perception is down to one person, a French chef named
Parmentier. I don't know precisely how he went about popularising them
as a food staple. There is a recipe called Pommes Parmentier though, it
includes sautéed potato and onion.
--
Once more in search of cognoscenti
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Ulrika O'Brien
Makes me wonder whether Swedes qualify as "animals" or "the Irish". At
least, I should be very surprised to find that potatoes as a staple of
the Swedish diet only date back to 1850.
Kip Williams
> Bernard Peek wrote:
>
>>Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous. They
>>were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish. I know that the
>>change in perception is down to one person, a French chef named
>>Parmentier. I don't know precisely how he went about popularising them
>>as a food staple. There is a recipe called Pommes Parmentier though, it
>>includes sautéed potato and onion.
>
> Makes me wonder whether Swedes qualify as "animals" or "the Irish".
Or "turnips."
Kip W
Ulrika O'Brien
Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Mark Atwood <m...@mark.atwood.name> wrote:
> > I've heard a similar story, about a load of the New World crop
> > called "potatoes" that made it's way to some point in Europe. The
> > local lord grabbed the obviously good part, the greens, and threw
> > away the root tubers for the local poor folk to eat.
>
> > Result: A bunch of well fed poor folks, and a dead household in the
> > lord's house.
>
> > Even today, there are a couple a people a year who get poisoned
> > because they left some potatoes in the sunlight for a week or so
> > before mashing them.
>
> I'm skeptical. Solanine is intensely bitter, and not all that
> poisonous. More likely, they would have spit out the first bite of
> the potato greens. And if they forced themselves to eat it despite
> the vile taste, they would have suffered nothing worse than a couple
> days of vomiting and diarrhea.
> --
My recollection is that the cherry-tomato-like fruit of the potato
plant do in fact contain concentrated toxins, and that was the reason
that people were at first resistant in some quarters to eating
tomatoes. I don't know that the toxins would be lethal, but apparently
solanine is not the only glycoalkaloid found in the fruit of the
potato. And potatoes are a member of the same family as deadly
nightshade so it doesn't seem entirely farfetched that it could be
lethal. But I do find the story a bit dubious on the grounds that the
relation between potatoes and deadly nightshade was spotted quite early
in its history.
Bernard Peek
Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> writes
I don't have my copy of Larousse Gastronomique here so I can't check
exactly what it said.
Ulrika O'Brien
You play nice or I'll tan your hide 'til it's sueded. And besides,
rutabagas are not turnips. Also, bats aren't bugs.
Kip Williams
I Googled first. On account of I knows so little about turnips. And it
said they called 'em Swedish Turnips first. Watch it or I'll have Sarah
rough you up at Capclave. (She'll do it, too. I'll just tell her you're
a family member.)
Kip W
Ulrika O'Brien
Kip Williams wrote:
> Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
>
> > Kip Williams wrote:
> >
> >>Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Bernard Peek wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous. They
> >>>>were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish. I know that the
> >>>>change in perception is down to one person, a French chef named
> >>>>Parmentier. I don't know precisely how he went about popularising them
> >>>>as a food staple. There is a recipe called Pommes Parmentier though, it
> >>>>includes sautéed potato and onion.
> >>>
> >>>Makes me wonder whether Swedes qualify as "animals" or "the Irish".
> >>
> >>Or "turnips."
> >
> > You play nice or I'll tan your hide 'til it's sueded. And besides,
> > rutabagas are not turnips. Also, bats aren't bugs.
>
> I Googled first. On account of I knows so little about turnips. And it
> said they called 'em Swedish Turnips first.
Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
rutabagas are not turnips, though they are both members of the mustard
family (Cruciferae) and of the same genus (Brassica). Turnips are
Brassica rapa, and swedes are Brassica napobrassica. Put that in your
search term and smoke it, fellah.
> Watch it or I'll have Sarah
> rough you up at Capclave. (She'll do it, too. I'll just tell her you're
> a family member.)
Your puny threats do not frighten me, foolish mortal. I will ply her
with toys that make loud, repetetive noises at inconveniently early
hours of a Sunday morning, and then where will you be, eh? Besides, I
have a Sarah of my own, and until you've endured projectile affection
about the waist and knees by 45 pounds of steaming canine love, you
don't know the meaning of 'assault weapon'.
Ulrika O'Brien
It would be just like a Frenchman to forget that the Swedes exist. But
from what I can gather it's commonly believed that the potato was first
brought into common use in Sweden by soldiers returning from the Thirty
Years War, and by the 1700s was popular for its use in distilling the
Swedish equivalent of vodka. In fact, apparently the Swedish Royal
Academy inducted its first female member, Eva de la Gardie, for
describing the process in 1748. (Which in some ways sounds alot like
Swedish culture in a nutshell.) Alas, the Swedish-language Wikipedia
is silent on when the root was popularized as a food staple, but
presumably it was generally known not to be toxic when cooked if it was
used in mash for distilling. (Indeed, apparently there are apparently
some toxins in wild potatoes, which partially break down with cooking,
so the belief that potatoes are poisonous isn't entirely wrong.)
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams wrote:
>
>>Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kip Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bernard Peek wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous. They
>>>>>>were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish. I know that the
>>>>>>change in perception is down to one person, a French chef named
>>>>>>Parmentier. I don't know precisely how he went about popularising them
>>>>>>as a food staple. There is a recipe called Pommes Parmentier though, it
>>>>>>includes sautéed potato and onion.
>>>>>
>>>>>Makes me wonder whether Swedes qualify as "animals" or "the Irish".
>>>>
>>>>Or "turnips."
>>>
>>>You play nice or I'll tan your hide 'til it's sueded. And besides,
>>>rutabagas are not turnips. Also, bats aren't bugs.
>>
>>I Googled first. On account of I knows so little about turnips. And it
>>said they called 'em Swedish Turnips first.
>
> Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
> Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
> rutabagas are not turnips, though they are both members of the mustard
> family (Cruciferae) and of the same genus (Brassica). Turnips are
> Brassica rapa, and swedes are Brassica napobrassica. Put that in your
> search term and smoke it, fellah.
I don't have to smoke nothin. I'm learning all kinds of stuff just
hanging around Usenet.
>>Watch it or I'll have Sarah
>>rough you up at Capclave. (She'll do it, too. I'll just tell her you're
>>a family member.)
>
> Your puny threats do not frighten me, foolish mortal. I will ply her
> with toys that make loud, repetetive noises at inconveniently early
> hours of a Sunday morning, and then where will you be, eh? Besides, I
Ha! You think nobody's tried that one? Just Google on "thought they were
clever" and you'll get a list of victims.
> have a Sarah of my own, and until you've endured projectile affection
> about the waist and knees by 45 pounds of steaming canine love, you
> don't know the meaning of 'assault weapon'.
So I take it you're weak and vulnerable from the waist up? Good to know.
Kip W
Marilee J. Layman
<ulr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Your puny threats do not frighten me, foolish mortal. I will ply her
>with toys that make loud, repetetive noises at inconveniently early
>hours of a Sunday morning
I've done this regularly and they still like me.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Kip Williams
That's partly because that trick never works. There aren't really any
toys that can make noises longer, louder, or more repetitive than Sarah
can do by herself.
I wonder if Tim K. remembered to get his daughter one of those
keyboards? She was really enjoying it in our room that time.
Kip W
Keith F. Lynch
> Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous.
> They were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish.
I'm skeptical. Long before 1850, people all over the civilized world
would have noticed that the Irish were eating potatoes and weren't
being harmed by them.
It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
in much the same way as insects still aren't.
Ulrika O'Brien
> Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
> > Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous.
> > They were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish.
>
> I'm skeptical. Long before 1850, people all over the civilized world
> would have noticed that the Irish were eating potatoes and weren't
> being harmed by them.
>
> It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
> in much the same way as insects still aren't.
Or indeed the way potatoes still aren't in East and Southeast Asia.
--
Were it not air, it would not burn. -Graydon Saunders
Ulrika O'Brien*fwa*instigator at large
Doug Wickstrom
Good question. We know that under the terms of the Roman
Occupation that Swedes are entitled to be crucified separately
from the Welsh, but it doesn't seem to address the question of
tuberous diet.
I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato
Blight, there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As
these were the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
called "barkbrödlåtar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but
is morally treasonable to the American public." --Theodore Roosevelt
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Johan Larson
"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43130d97.1389777953@localhost...
>
> I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato
> Blight, there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As
> these were the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>
> ...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
> called "barkbrödlåtar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
> distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
> can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
Johan Larson
Philip Chee
> In article <deoc1s$fk$1...@panix1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net says...
>> Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
>>> Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous.
>>> They were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish.
>> I'm skeptical. Long before 1850, people all over the civilized world
>> would have noticed that the Irish were eating potatoes and weren't
>> being harmed by them.
>> It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
>> in much the same way as insects still aren't.
> Or indeed the way potatoes still aren't in East and Southeast Asia.
They aren't? Since when?[ ]I shave with Occam's Razor.
* TagZilla 0.059
Phil
-==-
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://fashblock.mozdev.org/
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Ulrika O'Brien
johan....@comcast.net says...
No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
Ulrika O'Brien
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:46:27 GMT, Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
> > In article <deoc1s$fk$1...@panix1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net says...
> >> Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
> >>> Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous.
> >>> They were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish.
>
> >> I'm skeptical. Long before 1850, people all over the civilized world
> >> would have noticed that the Irish were eating potatoes and weren't
> >> being harmed by them.
>
> >> It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
> >> in much the same way as insects still aren't.
>
> > Or indeed the way potatoes still aren't in East and Southeast Asia.
Perhaps I'm overstating the case, but it was my understanding that the
Chinese still regard potatoes as strictly a fodder crop, and the only
Asian cuisines that I can think of that incorporate potatoes in any
degree are from the Indian subcontinent.
Johan Larson
"Ulrika O'Brien" <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d7a3d7ac...@news.west.earthlink.net...
>> >> It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
>> >> in much the same way as insects still aren't.
>>
>> > Or indeed the way potatoes still aren't in East and Southeast Asia.
>
> Perhaps I'm overstating the case, but it was my understanding that the
> Chinese still regard potatoes as strictly a fodder crop, and the only
> Asian cuisines that I can think of that incorporate potatoes in any
> degree are from the Indian subcontinent.
This may be an issue of what strains of potatoes are being used. When my
Finnish relatives visit the US and Canada they always complain about the
powdery flavorless potatoes sold here. It seems to me nordic agriculture has
optimized potatoes for flavor, whereas US and Canadian agriculture has
optimized for size.
Johan Larson
Bernard Peek
O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> writes
>In article <o9udnZ2dnZ2dEVS2nZ2dn...@comcast.com>,
>johan....@comcast.net says...
>>
>> "Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:43130d97.1389777953@localhost...
>> >
>> > I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato
>> > Blight, there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As
>> > these were the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>> >
>> > ...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
>> > called "barkbrödlåtar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
>> > distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
>> > can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
>>
>> They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
>
>No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
>blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
I recall listening to Tom Paley and his son at a folk club, when his son
was pretty new to the fiddle. I thing grim and dire just about covers
it.
Andrew Stephenson
johan....@comcast.net "Johan Larson" writes:
Played on a lutefisk?
--
Andrew Stephenson
Ulrika O'Brien
<johan0larson8comcast0net> says...
All that's true, but I don't think it pertains to any potato prejudices
in Asia -- I had gathered that the Chinese simply don't regard potatoes
as food for people. Much the same attitude the English used to take to
oats.
Ulrika O'Brien
Yes, but even really well-played Swedish folk fiddle music often has
that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
and that's just the cheery ones.
Okay, not entirely, but there is a strong thread of it.
Doug Wickstrom
<depp5e$fli$0...@pita.alt.net>
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my> caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:46:27 GMT, Ulrika O'Brien wrote:
>> In article <deoc1s$fk$1...@panix1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net says...
>>> Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
>>>> Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous.
>>>> They were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish.
>
>>> I'm skeptical. Long before 1850, people all over the civilized world
>>> would have noticed that the Irish were eating potatoes and weren't
>>> being harmed by them.
>
>>> It's possible that potatoes weren't considered a "respectable" food,
>>> in much the same way as insects still aren't.
>
>> Or indeed the way potatoes still aren't in East and Southeast Asia.
>
>They aren't? Since when?
They apparently haven't been eating potatoes since they were
brought there in the 16th and 17th centuries. Just why people
bothered to grow what they didn't eat, is beyond me. But the
Japanese have been growing, and not eating "Java potato" since
the early 1600s, and it's apparently been a very successful
enterprise, according to Keith, otherwise it wouldn't have gone
on so long.
And I guess those things served in Thai restaurants must not be
potatoes.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"I tend to feel irritated when someone else turns out to know a fact I thought
only I knew--like invasion of private territory." --Isaac Asimov
Doug Wickstrom
<MPG.1d7a3d7ac...@news.west.earthlink.net>
Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> caused electrons to
dance and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>In article <depp5e$fli$0...@pita.alt.net>, phi...@aleytys.pc.my says...
You're overstating the case. Potatoes have been eaten with gusto
in Southeast and East Asia for centuries. I can't speak for the
Chinese, but the Japanese have been doing the South American
tuber since the early 1600s, when varieties were brought from
Java by the Dutch. They've been raising and consuming their own
tobacco that long, too.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part
of your life." --Brooke Shields
Doug Wickstrom
<4310d0fd.1439800546@localhost>
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> caused electrons to dance
and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>They apparently haven't been eating potatoes since they were
>brought there in the 16th and 17th centuries. Just why people
>bothered to grow what they didn't eat, is beyond me. But the
>Japanese have been growing, and not eating "Java potato" since
>the early 1600s, and it's apparently been a very successful
>enterprise, according to Keith, otherwise it wouldn't have gone
>on so long.
Bugger. Sorry, Keith, I misread the quotations. That was, of
course, Ulrika.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"I think it [Western civilization] would be a good idea." --Mohandas K. Gandhi
Keith F. Lynch
> Bugger. Sorry, Keith, I misread the quotations. That was, of
> course, Ulrika.
Thanks. I was wondering whether you were referring to "the other
Keith," as I knew I had expressed no opinion on the consumption of
potatoes in the far east.
Doug Wickstrom
<MPG.1d7a60e37...@news.west.earthlink.net>
Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> caused electrons to
dance and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>In article <L7wzVZBq...@shrdlu.com>, b...@shrdlu.com says...
>> In message <MPG.1d7a3cc88...@news.west.earthlink.net>, Ulrika
>> O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> writes
>> >In article <o9udnZ2dnZ2dEVS2nZ2dn...@comcast.com>,
>> >johan....@comcast.net says...
>> >>
>> >> "Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:43130d97.1389777953@localhost...
>> >> >
>> >> > I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato
>> >> > Blight, there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As
>> >> > these were the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>> >> >
>> >> > ...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
>> >> > called "barkbrödlåtar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
>> >> > distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
>> >> > can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
>> >>
>> >> They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
>> >
>> >No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
>> >blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
Nonsense. Some is. Bark-bread tunes aren't intended to be dire,
they are intended to be unique, and never played for fun. It was
their purpose that was dire, to get people to come running when
the bark-bread cart came around. It really was a life-or-death
situation, when the parish was distributing the awful stuff.
Gift tunes serve a similar purpose; a fiddler doesn't play his
skänklåt unless it's time to present the gifts at a wedding, or
as his last tune of the evening, signifying that he'd like to be
paid now, please, and with the hint that if folks pony up, he
might be persuaded to go on playing, after he's had some more
snapps.
>> I recall listening to Tom Paley and his son at a folk club, when his son
>> was pretty new to the fiddle. I thing grim and dire just about covers
>> it.
A lot of Brits (and Americans who've grew up on British Isles
fiddling styles, including Appalachian and Bluegrass) don't seem
to be able to get the rhythm right. The ornamentation is a
matter of local dialect, and isn't so critical, but it is
critical that there _be_ elaborate ornamentation -- sometimes.
Listening to _any_ new fiddle player, though, can be a strain on
one's ears.
>Yes, but even really well-played Swedish folk fiddle music often has
>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>and that's just the cheery ones.
>
>Okay, not entirely, but there is a strong thread of it.
Oh, piffle. The vast, vast majority is intended for dancing, and
judging by the numbers of dancers that show up, dancing is fun.
OK, there's a march tune that's intended for opening the ting,
and there's another march that commemorates the slaughter of
5,000 men from Dalarna at the hands of royal troops, but these
aren't played much, and anyway, they're from Leksand, and
everyone knows what gintar the men from Leksand are.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Benjamin Franklin
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
Since you mention size, you're probably talking about what are sold in
the US as "baking potatoes" or "bakers". These have a dry, flaky texture
and, IMHO, are mainly meant for soaking up butter and sour cream like a
sponge. Russet is one of the common varieties. I much prefer "boilers",
which have a waxy texture and are typically used in potato salad or stew.
Much more flavor and, again IMHO, texture than the bakers. May be
called "new potatoes" in stores. The most common variety I see is red
skinned, but there's frequently a gold skinned variety nearby. I pick
out the largest of them and use them as baking potatoes.
Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com
Nancy Lebovitz
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:35:42 GMT, in message
><MPG.1d7a60e37...@news.west.earthlink.net>
> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> caused electrons to
>dance and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>
>>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>>and that's just the cheery ones.
>>
>>Okay, not entirely, but there is a strong thread of it.
>
>Oh, piffle. The vast, vast majority is intended for dancing, and
>judging by the numbers of dancers that show up, dancing is fun.
>OK, there's a march tune that's intended for opening the ting,
>and there's another march that commemorates the slaughter of
>5,000 men from Dalarna at the hands of royal troops, but these
>aren't played much, and anyway, they're from Leksand, and
>everyone knows what gintar the men from Leksand are.
This is reassuring--I've heard some Swedish fiddle music and liked
it and not noticed an especially grim tone. It may be mostly that
I'm a sucker for that double-string(?) timbre.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Nancy Lebovitz
When? I thought oatmeal was a standard British breakfast.
Tim McDaniel
It's one of Samuel Johnson's most famous definitions.
<http://www.samueljohnson.com/definitions.html> has
Some Definitions / Definition
from Johnson's Dictionary
The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page
Definitions on this page are drawn from the first edition (1755)
of Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language. This is
not a representative sampling, just a small selection of some of
the more amusing entries.
...
Oats: A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but
in Scotland appears to support the people.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:MPG.1d7a3cc884de917e989760
@news.west.earthlink.net:
> In article <o9udnZ2dnZ2dEVS2nZ2dn...@comcast.com>,
> johan....@comcast.net says...
>>
>> "Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:43130d97.1389777953@localhost...
>> >
>> > I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato
>> > Blight, there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As
>> > these were the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>> >
>> > ...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
>> > called "barkbrödlåtar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
>> > distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
>> > can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
>>
>> They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
>
> No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
> blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
You haven't heard grim and dire until you've heard the symphonies of Allan
Pettersson, Swedish composer.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Doug Wickstrom
<deqqpd$nl0$1...@reader2.panix.com>
nan...@panix.com (Nancy Lebovitz) caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
>In article <4313d3cf.1440522562@localhost>,
>Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:35:42 GMT, in message
>><MPG.1d7a60e37...@news.west.earthlink.net>
>> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> caused electrons to
>>dance and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>>
>>>Yes, but even really well-played Swedish folk fiddle music often has
>>>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>>>and that's just the cheery ones.
>>>
>>>Okay, not entirely, but there is a strong thread of it.
>>
>>Oh, piffle. The vast, vast majority is intended for dancing, and
>>judging by the numbers of dancers that show up, dancing is fun.
>>OK, there's a march tune that's intended for opening the ting,
>>and there's another march that commemorates the slaughter of
>>5,000 men from Dalarna at the hands of royal troops, but these
>>aren't played much, and anyway, they're from Leksand, and
>>everyone knows what gintar the men from Leksand are.
>
>This is reassuring--I've heard some Swedish fiddle music and liked
>it and not noticed an especially grim tone. It may be mostly that
>I'm a sucker for that double-string(?) timbre.
Double strings? Not normally. Two or three voices, yes, but
they're the result of multiple fiddlers. There are a few Swedish
instruments with sympathetic strings, but they are very rare.
I've managed, looking very diligently for them, to collect two.
Norway, however, has an area known for them.
Or by any chance were you referring to nyckelharpor? They're a
kind of bowed hurdy-gurdy, with up to 18 strings.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water!
And East is East and West is West and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.
Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know." --Groucho Marx
Michael J. Lowrey
> Up until about 1850 potatoes were widely believed to be poisonous. They
> were apparently only eaten by animals and the Irish. I know that the
> change in perception is down to one person, a French chef named
> Parmentier.
This makes no sense at all! Not even the most bigoted of Englishmen
could have believed that a food which sustained the whole island of
Ireland was poisonous to superior races, could they?
And of course they had been eaten in South America for many hundreds,
if not thousands, of years; this was surely no secret?
--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
Paul Dormer
Wickstrom) wrote:
> Double strings? Not normally. Two or three voices, yes, but
> they're the result of multiple fiddlers. There are a few Swedish
> instruments with sympathetic strings, but they are very rare.
> I've managed, looking very diligently for them, to collect two.
>
> Norway, however, has an area known for them.
The Hardanger fiddle. Went to a concert of contemporary music for
Hardanger fiddle in a church in Huddersfield in Yorkshire last year.
Paul Dormer
wrote:
> *From:* tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
> *Date:* 27 Aug 2005 18:45:33 -0500
To which Boswell (a Scot) replied, "Ah, but what horses and what people!"
Johan Larson
"Paul Dormer" <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote in message
news:memo.2005082...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk...
The soundtrack of _The Two Towers_ features a kind Norwegian folk-fiddle of
some sort. It is used for the Rohan theme, and sounds sort of like a violin
with a two-pack-a-day habit.
Johan Larson
Petrea Mitchell
Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> strode forth and proclaimed:
> I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
> fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
> assassins weren't ninjas.
Dunno about that, but the tomato plant does have a highly poisonous
relative called jimson weed, which used to sometimes be used (maybe it
still is, I don't know) as root stock for grafting tomato branches onto.
Works fine as long as the gardener knows to remove all of the jimson-weed
leaves; otherwise the person eating the resulting tomatoes would get a
nasty surprise. (I think an incident like this is in one of Berton
Rouche's books but I forget which.)
--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pr...@m5p.com> <mit...@osm.com>
"Let's face it-- we used bad judgement, scared Gypsy, irked Joel, and
now we're stuck here in the dark without our bodies!" ---MST3K
Marilee J. Layman
I took up Doug Faunt's idea and am using a crockpot (with the help of
a lamp timer) to have oatmeal ready for me when I get up. So it
supports someone in Virginia, too.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
>I've heard the exact same story. Except that it was tomatoes, not
>fugu, the intended victim was George Washington, and the would-be
>assassins weren't ninjas.
It is documented that there was a plot to assassinate Washington
during the Revolution, I have never heard that tomatoes were the
intended weapon; instead, a more mundane poison may have been
attempted.
Dan, ad nauseam
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
>In message <1125076238....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> writes
>>Makes me wonder whether Swedes qualify as "animals" or "the Irish". At
>>least, I should be very surprised to find that potatoes as a staple of
>>the Swedish diet only date back to 1850.
>I don't have my copy of Larousse Gastronomique here so I can't check
>exactly what it said.
I'm not sure about the Swedes, but potatoes appear to have been
consumed in France pre-1825:
"Some are best taken . . . like the potatoes and the manioc-plant,
after their noxious qualities have been removed." Brillat-Savarin,
The Physiology of Taste, Meditation 19 (1825, trans. 1970 Anne
Drayton).
Dan, ad nauseam
Carol Hague
> Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
> Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
> rutabagas are not turnips,
Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
--
Carol
"How fleeting are all human passions when compared to the massive
continuity of ducks." - Dorothy L. Sayers, _Gaudy Night_
Ulrika O'Brien
Carol Hague wrote:
> Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
> > Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
> > rutabagas are not turnips,
>
> Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
> orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
> turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
> tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
> to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
Weird.
But I guess it's a sign of my background. I think that rutabagas,
boiled, mashed with butter, and served with salt pork, are really
pretty tasty. You can also do rutabaga/potato mash if you prefer.
Ulrika, Swede not swede
Michael J. Lowrey
In Wisconsin, one of the foodies' eternal theological clashes is
whether pasties should or should not have rutabegas in them.
And me, I like the sound of what you describe quite a bit. Maybe we
could find a good rutabega restaurant in Madison sometime at a
WisCon...
Paul Dormer
(Carol Hague) wrote:
> Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
> > Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
> > rutabagas are not turnips,
>
> Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
> orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
> turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
> tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
> to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
>
Actually, I think this is widespread across Britain, and not just
Scotland.
Incidentally, Chambers, a dictionary published in Scotland but usually
noting which words are Scottish, defines turnip as both Brassica rapa and
Brassica rutabaga, which it calls a Swedish turnip. And one of the
definitions of Swede is a Swedish turnip.
Carol Hague
> Carol Hague wrote:
> > Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
> > > Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
> > > rutabagas are not turnips,
> >
> > Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
> > orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
> > turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
> > tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
> > to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
>
> Weird.
>
> But I guess it's a sign of my background. I think that rutabagas,
> boiled, mashed with butter, and served with salt pork, are really
> pretty tasty.
It's just a personal taste thing I guess - my mother used to serve
(orange) swede a lot when we were kids and I've never really liked it.
Turnips I only tasted later in life to discover I don't like those
either.
Turnip *tops* are a different matter, mind, nice peppery greens. Very
tasty if you can keep the bloody butterflies off 'em until they're ready
to harvest.
> You can also do rutabaga/potato mash if you prefer.
I'll leave them for you, thanks. :-)
Carol Hague
> In article <1h22xtc.1b3354k1vsns92N%ca...@wrhpv.com>, ca...@wrhpv.com
> (Carol Hague) wrote:
> > Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
> > orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
> > turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
> > tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
> > to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
> >
>
> Actually, I think this is widespread across Britain, and not just
> Scotland.
The turnip thing or the Mars bar thing? Either way, I think it was the
Scots who started it :-)
Kevin G. Rhoads
>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>and that's just the cheery ones.
Well, now, isn't the music SUPPOSED to cheer one up?
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:43149046...@alum.mit.edu:
Perhaps it's like what Bleeding Gums Murphy once said on "The Simpsons":
"The blues isn't about making yourself feel better, it's about making other
people feel worse. And makin' a few bucks while you're at it."
Tim McDaniel
Carol Hague <ca...@wrhpv.com> wrote:
>Turnip *tops* are a different matter, mind, nice peppery greens. Very
>tasty if you can keep the bloody butterflies off 'em until they're
>ready to harvest.
Butterflies? Really? I thought that caterpillars were the threat.
Kip Williams
> In article <1h23uyd.1b68nug122uhu7N%ca...@wrhpv.com>,
> Carol Hague <ca...@wrhpv.com> wrote:
>
>>Turnip *tops* are a different matter, mind, nice peppery greens. Very
>>tasty if you can keep the bloody butterflies off 'em until they're
>>ready to harvest.
>
> Butterflies? Really? I thought that caterpillars were the threat.
I'll guess that the butterflies lay the eggs that turn into the
caterpillars, and thus keeping one away prevents the other.
Kip W
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Ulrika O'Brien <ulr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, well, you aren't the only one who can manage a search engine, Mr.
>> Smarty Pants. It remains the case that 'swedes' are rutabagas and
>> rutabagas are not turnips,
>
>Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
>orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
>turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
>tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
>to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
I hear the Food Pavilion at the Minnesota State Fair has fried
spaghetti and meatballs onna stick. Apparently they stick the
meatballs on the stick, wrap the spaghetti around it, dip it into
batter, and deep fry it. My beading friends who have already been
there said it was really popular.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <1h22xtc.1b3354k1vsns92N%ca...@wrhpv.com>, ca...@wrhpv.com
>> (Carol Hague) wrote:
>
>> > Unless, and this is important, you are Scots. In Scotland (IIRC) the
>> > orange vaguely roundish disgusting tasting root vegetables are called
>> > turnips, and the white vaguely roundish but a bit flatter disgusting
>> > tasting root vegetables are called swedes. I think they do it on purpose
>> > to wind up the Sassenachs, as with deep-fried Mars bars....
>> >
>>
>> Actually, I think this is widespread across Britain, and not just
>> Scotland.
>
>The turnip thing or the Mars bar thing? Either way, I think it was the
>Scots who started it :-)
The big hit at our local county fair was deep-fried oreos.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Carol Hague
Exactly. Prevention is better than accidentally eating half a
caterpillar.
Carol Hague
>
> I hear the Food Pavilion at the Minnesota State Fair has fried
> spaghetti and meatballs onna stick. Apparently they stick the
> meatballs on the stick, wrap the spaghetti around it, dip it into
> batter, and deep fry it. My beading friends who have already been
> there said it was really popular.
Some people will deep-fry *anything*.....
I had deep-fried pizza once. It was edible, but only just, and only
because I was *really* hungry.
Dave Weingart
>The big hit at our local county fair was deep-fried oreos.
My oldest son's scout troop is enamoured of DFOs.
I have NO idea why.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Girando e girando, cascando e cascando
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Nel mondo delle elfi sognando
http://www.weingart.net/
ICQ 57055207
v$af$...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk
Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> oozed reassurance:
> b...@shrdlu.com says...
>> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> writes
>>>>>the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>>>>>
>>>>>...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
>>>>>distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
>>>>>can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
>>>>
>>>>They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
>>>
>>>No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
>>>blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
>>
>>son was pretty new to the fiddle. I thing grim and dire just about
>>covers it.
>
>Yes, but even really well-played Swedish folk fiddle music often has
>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>and that's just the cheery ones.
>
an entire _nation_ of marsh-wiggles? (- [1])
- love, ppint.
[the address from which this was posted bounces e-mail;
please change the "f" to a "g" and drop the "v" if you
wish to cc. or e-mail me.]
pp.s. - and marsh-wiggles with fiddles, at that?
--
[1] - "I like rhetorical questions;
I usually get them right."
- joann l.dominik, 6/95
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
I'm trying to think of all the things that were deep-fried, on-a-stick
or both at the fair last year... Oreos, Snickers bars, cheesecake, cheese.
I know I'm missing a bunch. I don't much care for over-the-top snacks so
I didn't really keep track. But the bite of frozen key lime pie on-a-stick
I had was very nice.
Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com
Doug Wickstrom
<5080516...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>
v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
>- hi; in rasff article, <MPG.1d7a60e37...@news.west.earthlink.net>,
> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> oozed reassurance:
>> b...@shrdlu.com says...
>>> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> writes
>>>> johan....@comcast.net says...
>>>>> "Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think I'll just note that during the years of the Potato Blight,
>>>>>>there were also years in which the rye crop failed. As these were
>>>>>>the two staple crops of Sweden, well...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>...there's a reason there's an entire class of fiddle tunes
>>>>>>called "barkbroedletar" (bark-bread melodies), to be played while
>>>>>>distributing ersatz bread. If you're sufficiently desperate, you
>>>>>>can sort of eat birch bark, for a while.
>>>>>
>>>>>They're something like indigenous Swedish blues music?
>>>>
>>>>No, there really isn't nearly enough hope or cheer in it to qualify as
>>>>blue. Swedish music is more grim and dire, really.
>>>
>>>I recall listening to Tom Paley and his son at a folk club, when his
>>>son was ?pretty ?new ?to ?the fiddle. ?I ?thing ?grim ?and dire just about
>>>covers it.
>>
>>Yes, but even really well-played Swedish folk fiddle music often has
>>that direness to it. Doom, gloom, starvation, and bitter lonely death,
>>and that's just the cheery ones.
>>
> - oh good grief - do you mean to say the scandiwegians're
> an entire _nation_ of marsh-wiggles? (- [1])
>
> - love, ppint.
> [the address from which this was posted bounces e-mail;
> please change the "f" to a "g" and drop the "v" if you
> wish to cc. or e-mail me.]
>
> pp.s. - and marsh-wiggles with fiddles, at that?
Ulrika might mean that, but I dispute it.
And, anyway, the fiddles are mostly concentrated in Dalarna and
Hälsingland, with just a scattering of them in the rest of the
country. The tunes are mostly bright and lively, and set one's
feet to dancing.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"I think it [Western civilization] would be a good idea." --Mohandas K. Gandhi
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.