Prohibited songs at Balticon

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Gary McGath

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May 29, 2021, 8:26:02 AMMay 29
to
Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
(https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory
comments about a person, group, or category of people."

That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've
written (with the targets of the derogatory lyrics indicated in
parentheses):

- The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned (Woodrow Wilson)
- Der Zuckerberg (Facebook)
- March of Damned Breath (people who endanger others in a pandemic)
- I Will Block You (Internet trolls and spammers)
- Rocket Men (Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un)
- Do You Hear the Filkers Sing (the Finnish Worldcon)
- Drink the Flint River (officials who covered up water pollution)

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

Wolffan

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May 29, 2021, 10:06:08 AMMay 29
to
On 2021 May29, Gary McGath wrote
(in article <s8tbsp$g4e$1...@dont-email.me>):
I’ve never been to a worldcon. Various posts here and elsewhere are not
exactly encouraging me to go anywhere near one, particularly the next one.

Lee Gold XP

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May 29, 2021, 12:17:12 PMMay 29
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I don't think I've seen many of those.
In fact, I may not have seen any of them.
Are they on your webste?

--Lee

Gary McGath

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May 29, 2021, 1:20:59 PMMay 29
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Der Zuckerberg: http://www.mcgath.com/songs/Zuckerberg.pdf
Do You Hear the Filkers Sing:
http://www.mcgath.com/songs/DoYouHearTheFilkersSing.pdf

I'm fairly sure I posted "Rocket Men," "I Will Block You," and probably
some of the others to r.m.f.

Some of these were songs I posted to FAWM and are no longer available
there. I should add them to my website. Some, though, were songs just
for the occasion. "Rocket Men" is obsolete by virtue of the fact that
we're still alive. Here it is again, as a retrospective:


Rocket Men
Lyrics: Gary McGath, Copyright 2017
Music: Elton John, "Rocket Man"

The news filled me with fright last night.
Zero hour's coming soon.
And we're going to see light, deadly sight, by then.
We'll miss our homes so much, we'll miss our friends.
It's lonely to survive,
The future isn't bright.

And I think that we don't have a long long time
Till fusion blows us all away to find
They're not the men we thought they were at all,
Oh, no no no, they are rocket men,
Rocket men, burning up the world because they're mad.

These aren't the kind of men to give us peace.
In fact they're mad as hell,
And there's no one here to stop them, make them cease,
The consequences they don't understand.
It just gets worse each time they speak.
They're rocket men, they're rocket men.

And I think that we don't have a long long time
Till fusion blows us all away to find
They're not the men we thought they were at all,
Oh, no no no, they are rocket men,
Rocket men, burning up the world because they're mad.

And I think that we don't have a long long time.
And I think that we don't have a long long time. (etc.)

Joe Kesselman

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May 29, 2021, 10:31:58 PMMay 29
to
On 5/29/2021 8:25 AM, Gary McGath wrote:
> Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
> (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory
> comments about a person, group, or category of people."
>
> That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've
> written

That's one interpretation; I presume you have checked with them to
confirm it's the correct interpretation? I strongly suspect that this
rule, like most real-world boundaries, is in reality fuzzy and/or
fractal rather than a bright-line cutoff.

(On the other hand my own take is that, given how many songs you've
written and/or perform, dropping these seven -- that you probably
wouldn't have performed anyway -- for one weekend wouldn't be a huge
loss. I know, for you it's a matter of principle; for me it's a
difference that makes virtually no difference, especially given my
assumption in preceding paragraph.)

Arthur T.

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May 30, 2021, 1:09:47 AMMay 30
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In Message-ID:<s8uter$kpr$1...@dont-email.me>,
Joe Kesselman <keshlam.c...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On 5/29/2021 8:25 AM, Gary McGath wrote:
>> Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
>> (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory
>> comments about a person, group, or category of people."
>>
>> That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've
>> written
>
>That's one interpretation; I presume you have checked with them to
>confirm it's the correct interpretation? I strongly suspect that this
>rule, like most real-world boundaries, is in reality fuzzy and/or
>fractal rather than a bright-line cutoff.

Take the costs of con membership, hotel room, and transportation. Add
the fuzzier cost of your time. You could be betting all of that
against someone at con interpreting the rules differently from the
way a specific person pre-con said they would be interpreted.

To join a con, you're agreeing to their policies *as written*. If
they can't write reasonable rules when they have plenty of time to
revise, I think it's questionable as to whether they'll make better
choices about enforcement in the hurly-burly at con.

I can't find it, but somewhere I came across a quote to the effect
that one shouldn't judge a proposed law based solely on what it can
do for good, but also on how it could be used for evil.

*Writing* fuzzy policies is generally good because it suggests that
reasonable people wrote them, thus they will be reasonably
interpreted. (Do we need much more than "Obey Wil Wheaton's law"?)
But if the policy is not fuzzy, well, there are too many rules
lawyers in fandom who will insist on the letter of the law.

That said, I expect you're right that there'd be no problem with any
of those songs at the con. But I also feel we shouldn't reward bad
policies with membership money. And, short of joining the committees
of every con you want to attend, the only way to sufficiently condemn
such policies is by voting with our feet. Telling the concom *why*
one is not attending (as Gary seems to be doing) is even better.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

Gary McGath

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May 30, 2021, 5:16:08 AMMay 30
to
On 5/29/21 10:31 PM, Joe Kesselman wrote:
> On 5/29/2021 8:25 AM, Gary McGath wrote:
>> Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
>> (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory
>> comments about a person, group, or category of people."
>>
>> That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've
>> written
>
> That's one interpretation; I presume you have checked with them to
> confirm it's the correct interpretation? I strongly suspect that this
> rule, like most real-world boundaries, is in reality fuzzy and/or
> fractal rather than a bright-line cutoff.

In other words, they'll enforce it selectively to suit their politics,
and there's no way to tell till they come down on you. They can have
their con. I'm not interested.

> (On the other hand my own take is that, given how many songs you've
> written and/or perform, dropping these seven -- that you probably
> wouldn't have performed anyway -- for one weekend wouldn't be a huge
> loss. I know, for you it's a matter of principle; for me it's a
> difference that makes virtually no difference, especially given my
> assumption in preceding paragraph.)

I don't care to give any kind of support to a con that shadows every
word people say with the threat of expulsion or other penalties if the
concom doesn't like it.

This weekend, it's been in the news that two Rutgers officials found it
necessary to apologize for derogatory remarks about anti-Semitic bigots.
You aren't even allowed to offend Nazis these days.

Gary McGath

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May 30, 2021, 5:44:27 AMMay 30
to
On 5/30/21 1:09 AM, Arthur T. wrote:
> In Message-ID:<s8uter$kpr$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Joe Kesselman <keshlam.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>

> Take the costs of con membership, hotel room, and transportation. Add
> the fuzzier cost of your time. You could be betting all of that
> against someone at con interpreting the rules differently from the
> way a specific person pre-con said they would be interpreted.
>
In this case, the costs are zero, since Balticon is being held online
and not requiring a registration fee. In the more general case, you're
right.

I see in cons' speech codes a shadow of campus speech codes, which have
in fact been used to suppress views that those in charge didn't like.

RPI's security guards told students that they couldn't pass out
literature criticizing the school on a _public sidewalk_ in front of the
school because of an alleged "eminent domain" claim on the sidewalk. The
school stood by the lie that it had acquired the public property
adjacent to its campus and that people needed its permission to speak
freely on it.

Georgetown University cancelled a debate union's scheduled discussion on
"This house believes that major religions should portray God as a
woman." (The debate was going to be held on its Qatar campus.)

"Liberty" University, under president Jerry Falwell, Jr., has suppressed
articles in the student newspaper, including one criticizing Trump and
one about unmarried pregnant students.

The University of Kansas (Lawrence) ordered removal of a flag art
display that included "disrespectful display of a desecrated American
flag." It was moved to a less visible indoor location.

These are all examples of rules that don't have "bright lines," where
the people in charge can make arbitrary decisions. That makes it worse,
not better.

It's impossible to lay out rules that cover every possible case. The
rules should lay out the best principles possible and apply reasonable
discretion. They shouldn't be written so that everything is a violation
and people can avoid the risk of sanctions only by saying nothing that
could offend anyone.

In an SF con, those principles should include the idea that any issue
can be debated and anyone is subject to reasoned criticism. A blanket
prohibition on derogatory remarks goes far in the opposite direction,
creating an assumption that anything bad said about anyone is
prohibited, unless the concom decides to overlook it. It serves no
legitimate purpose.

Wolffan

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May 30, 2021, 6:40:35 AMMay 30
to
On 2021 May30, Gary McGath wrote
(in article <s8vl4m$h05$1...@dont-email.me>):
I offend Nazis every chance I get.

Dorothy J Heydt

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May 30, 2021, 10:45:01 AMMay 30
to
In article <s8vmpq$qg9$1...@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 5/30/21 1:09 AM, Arthur T. wrote:
>> In Message-ID:<s8uter$kpr$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Joe Kesselman <keshlam.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>
>> Take the costs of con membership, hotel room, and transportation. Add
>> the fuzzier cost of your time. You could be betting all of that
>> against someone at con interpreting the rules differently from the
>> way a specific person pre-con said they would be interpreted.
>>
>In this case, the costs are zero, since Balticon is being held online
>and not requiring a registration fee. In the more general case, you're
>right.
>
>I see in cons' speech codes a shadow of campus speech codes, which have
>in fact been used to suppress views that those in charge didn't like.
>
>RPI's security guards told students that they couldn't pass out
>literature criticizing the school on a _public sidewalk_ in front of the
>school because of an alleged "eminent domain" claim on the sidewalk. The
>school stood by the lie that it had acquired the public property
>adjacent to its campus and that people needed its permission to speak
>freely on it.

Now, there's a little plaque (or was when I last stood at
Bancroft and Telegraph) set into the sidewalk like two feet from
the curb at the entrance to UC Berkeley. It says "Property of
the Regents of the University of California. Permission to pass
over may be revoked at any time." Presumably the University does
own, and maintain, that sidewalk.

What I don't know is whether that plaque was in place *before*,
or some time *after,* the FSM demonstrations.
>

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Kevrob

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May 30, 2021, 12:12:17 PMMay 30
to
Here I had an image of Mario Savio wearing a colander on his
head, talking like a pirate. :) Hey, his family is Italian. He probably
knew a few good pasta dishes.*

One thing I remember from my days of gathering signatures on
candidate nomination petitions was to scout locations and figure
out where public property ended and private property began. My
team and I had great success one year when we canvassed the
line that extended onto the public sidewalk outside the "old gym"
at my private university. "In-person" registration for classes for
the fall semester was going on, in the days before that process
migrated online. We also hit the lines on the sidewalk leading into
Festival Park in Milwaukee before the gates for Summerfest (or
Irish Fest, or Festa Italiana, etc) opened. Even very low %s of
the large crowds yielded a lot of signatures. We had to remember
two things, besides not crossing the property line: 1) keep a decent
distance between the line and yourself. Standing on the curb, or
strolling along it while inviting people to come sign would negate
any claim that you were using aggressive tactics and 2) Don't in
any way impede passage along the sidewalk, either in the line or
outside of it. "Blocking the public way" would give a cop the excuse
to tell you to move along. One could even receive a municipal ordinance
violation - a ticket.

Festival Park is public property, but the various festivals are run by
private groups who rent the grounds for the run of the event, so their
rules apply. At State Fair Park we could do the same, though the Fair
would rent us a table or booth in the Exhibition Hall to make our pitch
to prospective supporters in air conditioned comfort. One could also
get a cream puff!

IMS, localities and states could impose stricter rules on political
activity on public property before activists like the FSM made a fuss
over their first amendment rights, among which are peaceable assembly
and the right to petition.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

--
Kevin R

Ninapenda Jibini

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May 30, 2021, 12:21:50 PMMay 30
to
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote in
news:s8vl4m$h05$1...@dont-email.me:

> This weekend, it's been in the news that two Rutgers officials
> found it necessary to apologize for derogatory remarks about
> anti-Semitic bigots. You aren't even allowed to offend Nazis
> these days.
>
That's actually an improvement. If the people who come up with this
shit get bitten by it, too, they'll rethink their world view.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Scott Dorsey

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May 30, 2021, 12:56:01 PMMay 30
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Now, there's a little plaque (or was when I last stood at
>Bancroft and Telegraph) set into the sidewalk like two feet from
>the curb at the entrance to UC Berkeley. It says "Property of
>the Regents of the University of California. Permission to pass
>over may be revoked at any time." Presumably the University does
>own, and maintain, that sidewalk.
>
>What I don't know is whether that plaque was in place *before*,
>or some time *after,* the FSM demonstrations.

Berkeley has been managing free-speech-related demonstrations since the 1930s
so I would not be surprised if this predates the current set of demonstrations
by quite some time.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Kevrob

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May 30, 2021, 1:40:00 PMMay 30
to
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 12:21:50 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote in
> news:s8vl4m$h05$1...@dont-email.me:
> > This weekend, it's been in the news that two Rutgers officials
> > found it necessary to apologize for derogatory remarks about
> > anti-Semitic bigots. You aren't even allowed to offend Nazis
> > these days.
> >
> That's actually an improvement. If the people who come up with this
> shit get bitten by it, too, they'll rethink their world view.
>
> --

The pushback to the statement came from a pro-Palestinian
student group.

Note:

[quote]

Both the initial statement and the following apology by the two officials
was (sic) removed from the school’s website Saturday afternoon and
replaced with the university president’s comments.

[/quote]

https://www.nj.com/education/2021/05/statement-by-2-rutgers-officials-on-anti-semitism-spurs-criticism-an-apology-and-response-from-college-president.html

[quote]

If a condemnation of antisemitism in the U.S. because of a recent upsurge
in violence, threats, and vandalism, combined with a condemnation of all
other forms of bigotry, triggers Students for Justice in Palestine, the chancellor's *
response could have taken many forms, including silence. The one response
that's completely unacceptable is to endorse SJP's view that condemning
antisemitism in the United States makes you anti-Palestinian, or indeed reflects
any view on the Arab-Israeli conflict at all.

[/quote] - David Bernstein at "The Volokh Conspiracy"
{ https://reason.com/people/david-e-bernstein/ }

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/05/28/rutgers-university-chancellor-christopher-j-molloy-condemns-the-rise-in-antisemitic-violence-and-then-apologizes-for-doing-so/

* Soon to be ex-chancellor. He's going back to Rutgers' pharmacy school.
Can you blame him?

https://www.rutgers.edu/news/francine-conway-named-chancellor-provost-rutgers-university-new-brunswick

The New York Post broke the story:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/rutgers-leaders-apologize-for-statement-condemning-anti-semitism/

Don't forget that Rutgers, once private, has been "The State University
of New Jersey" for 75 years. Pressure from politicians and organized
groups of their constituents is always a concern for the administrators.
I have no explanation for similar pusillanimous behavior by those
running private schools, other than that they have guzzled the identity
politics Flavor Aid.

--
Kevin R

Dorothy J Heydt

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May 30, 2021, 2:20:10 PMMay 30
to
In article <fd07a1f1-013b-4170...@googlegroups.com>,
I attended one of the FSM rallies (out of curiosity, mostly, and
a certain interest in whether the University, then my employer,
would stay open.) I can testify that Savio was not wearing
anything on his head but his hair.

The other thing I remember from the FSM days is a story I heard
second-hand from one of the TAs in the Linguistics Department.
He attended a meeting of representatives of students in the
various departments, and in due course somebody asked him, "Do
you think the Linguistics Department will support the strike?"
To which he answered, "Well, the problem is that the rest of the
University doesn't know that the Linguistics Department exists.
And the reverse is also true."

Whereas Hal's memory from FSM is the students in the School of
Engineering getting together to discuss the problem of unrest on
the Campus, and they were chiefly concerned with the possibility
that rebellious students from other departments might try to get
into the Engineering buildings and do some damage. It was
pointed out that all the doors into the buildings were rimmed
with steel, and that the College of Engineering had access to
many generators of whole shed-loads of electricity.

In fact, it didn't arise. The Engineering buildings were (and
still are) on the north edge of the Campus, too far away from
Sproul Plaza to attract a crowd.

Dorothy J Heydt

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May 30, 2021, 2:20:10 PMMay 30
to
In article <s90g30$84i$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
Before my time, but that's possible.

Keith F. Lynch

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May 30, 2021, 3:22:47 PMMay 30
to
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> I see in cons' speech codes a shadow of campus speech codes, which
> have in fact been used to suppress views that those in charge
> didn't like.

It's unfortunate. Fandom has a long tradition of inclusiveness,
in reaction to the 1939 Worldcon exclusion, which was soon widely
recognized as a serious mistake. This tradition was so strong
that the banning of a proven pedophile from the 1964 Worldcon
was very controversial. But apparently that inclusiveness is
a thing of the past now.

I'm "attending" Balticon. There didn't seem to be any censorship,
self-censorship, or banning at the open filking. Some of the songs
were openly critical of various people and organizations.

In the con suite, I was helping several people find their way to the
Don Sakers memorial event. One woman, who has had an unexplained
grudge against me for years, publicly denounced me for "mansplaining."
At the memorial event, which I was also attending, she privately
falsely accused me of following her there, and ordered me to go away.
I pointed out to her that she could be banned for her behavior, as her
criticism was related to my gender. I was tempted to report her, lest
she report me first, but I refrained.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Magewolf

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May 30, 2021, 5:17:04 PMMay 30
to
Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in rather short
supply.

Peter Trei

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May 30, 2021, 5:35:58 PMMay 30
to
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 1:09:47 AM UTC-4, Arthur T. wrote:
> In Message-ID:<s8uter$kpr$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Joe Kesselman <keshlam.c...@verizon.net> wrote: .
>
> I can't find it, but somewhere I came across a quote to the effect
> that one shouldn't judge a proposed law based solely on what it can
> do for good, but also on how it could be used for evil.

LYNDON B. JOHNSON:
"You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if
properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the
harms it would cause if improperly administered."

Checking this, I read a couple pages of his quotes. LBJ may have passed the
Civil Rights Act, but by today's standards, he could be very racist.

Pt

Wolffan

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May 31, 2021, 7:28:38 AMMay 31
to
On 2021 May30, Magewolf wrote
(in article <s90vcf$sup$1...@dont-email.me>):
The latest one had a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and two friends with
SS lightening flashes tattooed on their arms. Looked like Nazis to me. I
pointed out that the guy they were trying to hassle was:

1. a Sikh, not a Muslim

2. more Aryan than they were

3. smarter than they were... combined

4. unlike they were, was well-acquainted with soap, water, deodorant, and
mouthwash.

They got upset. And started swinging just as the cop car which I’d known
was in the area came into sight. Oops. The cop called for backup and our
three Heroes of the White Christian Race were last seen being cuffed and
hauled off to the county lockup. They didn’t get bail (apparently they
called the arraignment court judge a kike) and their trial date hasn’t come
up yet.

Joe Kesselman

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May 31, 2021, 6:53:25 PMMay 31
to
On 5/30/2021 5:16 AM, Gary McGath wrote:
> In other words, they'll enforce it selectively to suit their politics,
> and there's no way to tell till they come down on you. They can have
> their con. I'm not interested.

As far as I can tell you're still jumping to that assumption/assertion.
If you aren't interested enough to even ask them... well, your call.

Joe Kesselman

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May 31, 2021, 7:12:46 PMMay 31
to
> I’ve never been to a worldcon. Various posts here and elsewhere are not
> exactly encouraging me to go anywhere near one, particularly the next one.

Realistically, a worldcon is like a couple of especially big regional
cons glued together, except that you're more likely to get a chance to
hear/see/meet/talk to folks who don't normally get to your region. It
can draw some of the best from the community.

It can also sometimes draw some of the other extremes. As can other
cons. Which is why many cons, even relatively small ones have started
trying to be more explicit about setting expectations.

Don't let this thread scare you off from attending the worldcon. This is
SMOF-level policy debate which is largely orthogonal to the actual
experience of attending.

Gary McGath

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Jun 1, 2021, 5:08:23 AMJun 1
to
The plain words of the BSFS speech code are that they ban all
"derogatory" statements about anyone. People have reported in this
discussion that some people have made (acceptable) derogatory comments,
including ones in song, and were not disciplined. Those are plain facts,
not empty assertions.

If I have to ask a concom whether it intends to carry out its stated
policy of suppressing speech and on whom, then you're right, I'm not
interested in dealing with them.

Wolffan

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Jun 1, 2021, 6:14:35 AMJun 1
to
On 2021 May31, Joe Kesselman wrote
(in article <s93qhd$1j7$1...@dont-email.me>):
I’m not interested in financially supporting idiots who’d put a rule like
this into writing. Particularly as it appears that they are selective about
enforcing the rules, including this one. No, they can be as ideologically
pure as they like, I will keep my credit card in my wallet and stay far, farm
FAR away from them.

Wake me when, or more likely if, whoever makes the rules becomes more
reasonable.

Keith F. Lynch

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Jun 1, 2021, 7:30:36 PMJun 1
to
Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
> I\342\200\231m not interested in financially supporting idiots
> who\342\200\231d put a rule like this into writing. Particularly
> as it appears that they are selective about enforcing the rules,
> including this one. No, they can be as ideologically pure as they
> like, I will keep my credit card in my wallet and stay far, farm FAR
> away from them.

The rules being discussed here are those of Balticon, not of
the Worldcon. For this year's Worldcon's code of conduct, see
https://discon3.org/about/coc/

I won't be attending this year's Worldcon, even though it's close to
where I live, or recommending it to others, but not for that reason.

I will probably be attending next year's Worldcon.

Keith F. Lynch

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Jun 1, 2021, 8:15:23 PMJun 1
to
A Balticon staff member insisted that every con these days has a
code of conduct similar to Balticon's. Can someone provide a list
of current codes of conduct that aren't as draconian, and that they
consider acceptable? Thanks.

The Balticon code of conduct was weaponized against me this weekend by
a woman who publicly accused me of "mansplaining" when I was helping
people in the con suite get to the Don Sakers memorial event. I
privately warned her that she could be reported for that. A short
time later in the memorial event she falsely accused me of following
her there, and ordered me to leave. I didn't leave. I didn't
report her.

On Sunday night I heard from Balticon via email that *she* had
reported *me* for harrassment and that they were investigating.
I emailed them the correct sequence of events. I haven't heard back.
I was at the dead dog party until late Monday night, and nobody
kicked me out.

I see at http://file770.com/tag/eric-gasior/ that before the con they
fired their chair for alleged harassment.

I've been to the past 23 in-person Balticons and both of the virtual
Balticons, and am pre-registered for next year's in-person Balticon,
but I'm considering no longer attending. Especially since getting
from Baltimore to Virginia in the middle of a weekend by mass transit
is problematic. Even if the odds of my being kicked out are low, if
the consequences of my being kicked out are choosing between living
on the streets of Baltimore for the remainder of the three-day
weekend, walking 70 miles home while carrying my luggage, or spending
the whole of a year's discretionary budget on a taxi ride.

Is anyone circulating a petition?

Simcha Kuritzky

unread,
Jun 2, 2021, 9:45:55 AMJun 2
to
Punish them all by denying them the glory of your presence.

Keith F. Lynch

unread,
Jun 2, 2021, 8:31:37 PMJun 2
to
Simcha Kuritzky <joyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Punish them all by denying them the glory of your presence.

Believe it or not, that would annoy numerous people, who attend mostly
to have a chance to talk to me. It would also mean more work for
everyone else at setup and teardown. I not only pack up the truck,
but I usually stay over an extra day to unload it at the clubhouse.
Unlike most people, I'm comfortable doing hours of hard labor in
hot weather.

In case you're just tuning in, this thread is about the following
part of Baltimore's code of conduct:

Slurs and derogatory comments about a person, group, or category
of people.

That would rule out discussion of the Disclave flood, since it's
pretty much impossible to discuss without criticizing the person who
did it. It also forbids any criticism of the KKK, since that is a
group. And of terrorists, since that's a category of people.

Unlike you, I seldom have occasion to criticize other people, but
sometimes it's necessary, and Baltimore's rules, if taken literally,
say once is far too often.

Mike Van Pelt

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 12:19:17 PMJun 21
to
In article <0001HW.2664FFE002...@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>On 2021 May30, Magewolf wrote
>(in article <s90vcf$sup$1...@dont-email.me>):
>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in rather short
>> supply.

Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which
by some people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're
not too sure about Nancy.)

>The latest one had a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and two friends with
>SS lightening flashes tattooed on their arms. Looked like Nazis to me. I
>pointed out that the guy they were trying to hassle was:
>
>1. a Sikh, not a Muslim
>
>2. more Aryan than they were
>
>3. smarter than they were... combined
>
>4. unlike they were, was well-acquainted with soap, water, deodorant, and
>mouthwash.
>
>They got upset. And started swinging just as the cop car which I’d known
>was in the area came into sight. Oops. The cop called for backup and our
>three Heroes of the White Christian Race were last seen being cuffed and
>hauled off to the county lockup. They didn’t get bail (apparently they
>called the arraignment court judge a kike) and their trial date hasn’t come
>up yet.
>

Ah, I love a happy ending.

I suspect, if asked, people with that sort of tattoos would
vehemently deny that they were any sort of Christian. More
likely that Norse neo-pagan thing that horrifies the vast
majority of neo-pagans... (Asatru? Is that it? Not gonna
get any of that on my search history...)

In the unlikely event they do claim to be Christians, of course,
they're setting themselves up for one Hell of a shock on the Day
of Judgement, when they find out the Judge is a Jew.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

Lee Gold XP

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 12:30:14 PMJun 21
to
On 6/21/2021 9:19 AM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <0001HW.2664FFE002...@news.supernews.com>,
> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>> On 2021 May30, Magewolf wrote
>> (in article <s90vcf$sup$1...@dont-email.me>):
>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in rather short
>>> supply.
>
> Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which
> by some people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're
> not too sure about Nancy.)
>
>> The latest one had a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and two friends with
>> SS lightening flashes tattooed on their arms. Looked like Nazis to me. I
>> pointed out that the guy they were trying to hassle was:
>>
>> 1. a Sikh, not a Muslim
>>
>> 2. more Aryan than they were
>>
>> 3. smarter than they were... combined
>>
>> 4. unlike they were, was well-acquainted with soap, water, deodorant, and
>> mouthwash.
>>
>> They got upset. And started swinging just as the cop car which I’d known
>> was in the area came into sight. Oops. The cop called for backup and our
>> three Heroes of the White Christian Race were last seen being cuffed and
>> hauled off to the county lockup. They didn’t get bail (apparently they
>> called the arraignment court judge a kike) and their trial date hasn’t come
>> up yet.
>>
>
> Ah, I love a happy ending.
>
> I suspect, if asked, people with that sort of tattoos would
> vehemently deny that they were any sort of Christian. More
> likely that Norse neo-pagan thing that horrifies the vast
> majority of neo-pagans... (Asatru? Is that it? Not gonna
> get any of that on my search history...)
>
> In the unlikely event they do claim to be Christians, of course,
> they're setting themselves up for one Hell of a shock on the Day
> of Judgement, when they find out the Judge is a Jew.
>
This is a long comment in this newsgroup
given that it doesn't have a song.

Can you set it to a tune?
Could you or others send any further such comments to A
alt.music.filk -- which is where rec.music.filk members send
overflow comments that aren't songs?

Thanks.

--Lee Gold

Tim Merrigan

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 3:26:51 PMJun 21
to
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 09:30:12 -0700, Lee Gold XP <lee....@ca.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is a long comment in this newsgroup
>given that it doesn't have a song.
>
>Can you set it to a tune?
>Could you or others send any further such comments to A
>alt.music.filk -- which is where rec.music.filk members send
>overflow comments that aren't songs?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Lee Gold

I gather this was cross posted to rmf, I saw it on rasff.
--

Qualified immuninity = vertual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 4:15:01 PMJun 21
to
In article <saqe64$5ju$1...@dont-email.me>,
Mike Van Pelt <m...@shell.calweb.com> wrote:
>In article <0001HW.2664FFE002...@news.supernews.com>,
>Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>>On 2021 May30, Magewolf wrote
>>(in article <s90vcf$sup$1...@dont-email.me>):
>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in rather short
>>> supply.
>
>Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which
>by some people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're
>not too sure about Nancy.)

There are, and have been for many decades, people for whom
anybody to the left of the ultimate right are Communists. And
there are, for approximately the same time period, people for
whom anybody to the right of the ultimate left is a Fascist (or
Nazi, which is shorter).
>
>>The latest one had a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and two friends with
>>SS lightening flashes tattooed on their arms. Looked like Nazis to me. I
>>pointed out that the guy they were trying to hassle was:
>>
>>1. a Sikh, not a Muslim
>>
>>2. more Aryan than they were
>>
>>3. smarter than they were... combined
>>
>>4. unlike they were, was well-acquainted with soap, water, deodorant, and
>>mouthwash.
>>
>>They got upset. And started swinging just as the cop car which I’d known
>>was in the area came into sight. Oops. The cop called for backup and our
>>three Heroes of the White Christian Race were last seen being cuffed and
>>hauled off to the county lockup. They didn’t get bail (apparently they
>>called the arraignment court judge a kike) and their trial date hasn’t come
>>up yet.
>>
>
>Ah, I love a happy ending.

Same here! Three cheers for the cop and one cheer more for the
judge.
>
>I suspect, if asked, people with that sort of tattoos would
>vehemently deny that they were any sort of Christian. More
>likely that Norse neo-pagan thing that horrifies the vast
>majority of neo-pagans... (Asatru? Is that it? Not gonna
>get any of that on my search history...)

Yeah, Asatru, the worship of the Aesir.

First Amendment rights: you can worship anything, or nothing, or
To Whom It May Concern.*
>
>In the unlikely event they do claim to be Christians, of course,
>they're setting themselves up for one Hell of a shock on the Day
>of Judgement, when they find out the Judge is a Jew.

In which case they may throw themselves on his mercy. They may even
get it.

_____
*Brief excerpts from my SCA filk, "The Day the Honeywagon Caught
Fire:

"'Oh, Mithras, Zeus, or Jesus,' so he prayed as off he ran,
'Just make that wagon not explode, and I promise I'm your man!'
...
"We're singing praise to Balin** that the wagon did not burn,
And Asher's raising grateful prayers To Whom It May Concern."
**Not a god, but a very competent Kingdom Constable.

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 4:20:01 PMJun 21
to
In article <saqeql$l7u$1...@dont-email.me>,
Lee Gold XP <lee....@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>On 6/21/2021 9:19 AM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>This is a long comment in this newsgroup
>given that it doesn't have a song.
>
>Can you set it to a tune?
>Could you or others send any further such comments to
>alt.music.filk -- which is where rec.music.filk members send
>overflow comments that aren't songs?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Lee Gold

Uhhhhh... I can give you the complete text of "The Day The
Honeywagon Caught Fire," which is sung to the tune of The Bastard
King of England. Not very apropos, but considered fun by my
fellow SCAdians.

Better, really, for someone younger and sharper than me to write
one _ab initio._ And The Bastard King of England is way the heck
out of copyright.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 7:26:10 PMJun 21
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:qv2I5...@kithrup.com:

> In article <saqe64$5ju$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Mike Van Pelt <m...@shell.calweb.com> wrote:
>>In article
>><0001HW.2664FFE002...@news.supernews.com>,
>>Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>>>On 2021 May30, Magewolf wrote
>>>(in article <s90vcf$sup$1...@dont-email.me>):
>>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in
>>>> rather short supply.
>>
>>Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which
>>by some people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're
>>not too sure about Nancy.)
>
> There are, and have been for many decades, people for whom
> anybody to the left of the ultimate right are Communists. And
> there are, for approximately the same time period, people for
> whom anybody to the right of the ultimate left is a Fascist (or
> Nazi, which is shorter).

And for just as long, the two have been indistinguishable without a
score card, because neither cards about the political rhetoric, only
about gaining control of others.
>
> Yeah, Asatru, the worship of the Aesir.
>
Those are the people who really piss off Old Norse Specialist Dr.
Jackson Crawford.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 8:00:59 PMJun 21
to
In article <XnsAD50A7310F2...@85.12.62.245>,
Of course. Because he knows something about the subject that
can't be found in a Marvel comic book.

(My daughter fumes to this day about Marvel making golden-haired
Sif a brunette.)

Ninapenda Jibini

unread,
Jun 21, 2021, 11:14:24 PMJun 21
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:qv2sG...@kithrup.com:
He's more annoyed by ivory tower intellectuals who are only
interested in pontificating to other ivory tower intellectuals. But
what really seems to piss him off are the white supremecists who
use a version of the old Norse myths that exists only inside their
heads to justify their racism.
>
> (My daughter fumes to this day about Marvel making golden-haired
> Sif a brunette.)
>
Have they ever even claim their stuff was based on (rather than
inspired by) historical material?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 12:00:01 AMJun 22
to
In article <XnsAD50CDDF5E224...@85.12.62.245>,
I don't supppose so.

Ninapenda Jibini

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 1:15:46 AMJun 22
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:qv33q...@kithrup.com:
I mean, really, complaining that a *comic* book isn't realistic
enough is just not getting the point of comic books.

Kevrob

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 2:49:44 AMJun 22
to
Roy Thomas had some fun introducing a rival.
red-headed Thor, back in 1978.

https://www.comics.org/issue/32711/cover/4/

> I mean, really, complaining that a *comic* book isn't realistic
> enough is just not getting the point of comic books.
> --

--
Kevin R

Lee Gold XP

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 9:29:01 AMJun 22
to
On 6/21/2021 4:41 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Of course. Because he knows something about the subject that
> can't be found in a Marvel comic book.
>
> (My daughter fumes to this day about Marvel making golden-haired
> Sif a brunette.)

In my recent novel (VALHALLA: Absent without Leave, available on
Barnes & Noble and Amazon) I cautioned readers that it was
based on Norse myths (though somewhat heretical), but NOT
on the Marvel version.

(My novel is narrated by Ratatosk.)

--Lee

Arthur T.

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 5:11:23 PMJun 22
to
In Message-ID:<sasoir$5lm$1...@dont-email.me>,
Lee Gold XP <lee....@ca.rr.com> wrote:

I had not know of that squirrel before. Thank you.

Also, this article might be of interest in terms of Norse gods vs.
Marvel gods:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/disney-trademark-norse-gods/

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

Gary McGath

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 7:27:06 PMJun 22
to
On 6/22/21 5:11 PM, Arthur T. wrote:
> Also, this article might be of interest in terms of Norse gods vs.
> Marvel gods:
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/disney-trademark-norse-gods/

A filker held thor.com for a period of years and, as far as I know,
never got any trouble from Marvel. The domain now belongs to a chemical
company.

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jun 22, 2021, 7:45:10 PMJun 22
to
In article <14k4dg1gdjvq9gv6d...@4ax.com>,
Arthur T. <art...@munged.invalid> wrote:
>In Message-ID:<sasoir$5lm$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Lee Gold XP <lee....@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6/21/2021 4:41 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> Of course. Because he knows something about the subject that
>>> can't be found in a Marvel comic book.
>>>
>>> (My daughter fumes to this day about Marvel making golden-haired
>>> Sif a brunette.)
>>
>>In my recent novel (VALHALLA: Absent without Leave, available on
>>Barnes & Noble and Amazon) I cautioned readers that it was
>>based on Norse myths (though somewhat heretical), but NOT
>>on the Marvel version.
>>
>>(My novel is narrated by Ratatosk.)
>
>I had not know of that squirrel before. Thank you.

Yggdrasil, where nine worlds clash,
Is a noble piece of ash
That shelters Norns and gods and all that crew.
There's a dragon gnaws the base
Of an eagle's resting place,
And four harts, a goat, and squirrel complete the zoo.

Keith F. Lynch

unread,
Jun 26, 2021, 4:56:41 PMJun 26
to
Mike Van Pelt <m...@shell.calweb.com> wrote:
> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>> Magewolf wrote:
>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in
>>> rather short supply.

> Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which by some
> people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're not too sure
> about Nancy.)

I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere. And it's
not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my favorite authors,
mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in his latest blog post.
He's become almost a self-parody of a woker-than-thou person.

There are reasonable criticisms of the libertarians, but calling
them Nazis is shorthand for "Pay no attention to any of my political
opinions, as I know nothing whatsoever on the topic, but consider
myself a world expert."

I'd love to be in the room when Stross accuses the Libertarian's 2020
VP candidate, Spike Cohen, of being a Nazi.

Gary McGath

unread,
Jun 26, 2021, 7:15:42 PMJun 26
to
On 6/26/21 4:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

> I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere. And it's
> not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my favorite authors,
> mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in his latest blog post.
> He's become almost a self-parody of a woker-than-thou person.
>
> There are reasonable criticisms of the libertarians, but calling
> them Nazis is shorthand for "Pay no attention to any of my political
> opinions, as I know nothing whatsoever on the topic, but consider
> myself a world expert."

It's as if they think the Nazis marched into Poland,Belgium, France,
etc., and declared, "ACHTUNG! All censorship and restrictions on speech
are removed, by the command of the Fuehrer!"

Removing rec.music.filk from the reply as the thread has wandered far
from anything filk-related.

Magewolf

unread,
Jun 26, 2021, 10:12:09 PMJun 26
to
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 20:56:39 +0000, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

> Mike Van Pelt <m...@shell.calweb.com> wrote:
>> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>>> Magewolf wrote:
>>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in rather
>>>> short supply.
>
>> Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which by some
>> people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're not too sure
>> about Nancy.)
>
> I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere. And it's
> not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my favorite authors,
> mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in his latest blog post. He's
> become almost a self-parody of a woker-than-thou person.
>
> There are reasonable criticisms of the libertarians, but calling them
> Nazis is shorthand for "Pay no attention to any of my political
> opinions, as I know nothing whatsoever on the topic, but consider myself
> a world expert."
>
> I'd love to be in the room when Stross accuses the Libertarian's 2020 VP
> candidate, Spike Cohen, of being a Nazi.

He has always been woker-than-thou, it is just that with the inmates
practically running the asylum he has to go to greater and greater
lengths to keep up the act.

It is something I have seen in a lot of my old friends. Ten years ago
they were perfectly rational human beings who would have been appalled at
the actions of many of the modern so called liberals. And I know that
for a fact because we had complained about a lot of the same things being
done by Republicans for years. But they are so tied up in being on the
"right side of history" that they have embraced the worst of the modern
left to try to stay relevant.

Alan Woodford

unread,
Jun 27, 2021, 3:41:44 AMJun 27
to
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 19:15:39 -0400, Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com>
wrote:

>On 6/26/21 4:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>
>> I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere. And it's
>> not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my favorite authors,
>> mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in his latest blog post.
>> He's become almost a self-parody of a woker-than-thou person.
>>
>> There are reasonable criticisms of the libertarians, but calling
>> them Nazis is shorthand for "Pay no attention to any of my political
>> opinions, as I know nothing whatsoever on the topic, but consider
>> myself a world expert."
>
>It's as if they think the Nazis marched into Poland,Belgium, France,
>etc., and declared, "ACHTUNG! All censorship and restrictions on speech
>are removed, by the command of the Fuehrer!"
>

Now perhaps you understand why those of us who are even slightly to the left
of the Republicans get fed up with the eevil socialists - piles of skulls
ahead! rhetoric that pops up on here a lot :-)

And yes, I think calling libertarians neo-nazis is silly, too!

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman

Gary McGath

unread,
Jun 27, 2021, 5:38:34 AMJun 27
to
On 6/26/21 10:12 PM, Magewolf wrote:
> He has always been woker-than-thou, it is just that with the inmates
> practically running the asylum he has to go to greater and greater
> lengths to keep up the act.
>
> It is something I have seen in a lot of my old friends. Ten years ago
> they were perfectly rational human beings who would have been appalled at
> the actions of many of the modern so called liberals. And I know that
> for a fact because we had complained about a lot of the same things being
> done by Republicans for years. But they are so tied up in being on the
> "right side of history" that they have embraced the worst of the modern
> left to try to stay relevant.

(Again, dropping rec.music.filk from the thread as no longer relevant
there.)

It's something I've seen multiple times. The Jeopardy contestants who
went after one of their number for counting on his fingers were,
according to one article I read, reasonable, nice people on LinkedIn
before that.

A major publisher of religious music demanded that composer Daniel Elder
publicly acknowledge that his opposition to rioting and arson was not
merely wrong but inexcusable and stopped publishing his work. Many of
his "friends" reportedly denounced him. I wrote a blog article on his case:

https://garymcgath.com/wp/fanatical-publishers/

Something about the culture of the left has become extremely toxic. It's
more than just wanting to be on the "right side of history"; they could
affirm their positions energetically without needing to launch vicious
attacks on their own members for deviance.

It's like the purges of the Soviet Union, but there people were in
danger of becoming unemployable or being imprisoned if they didn't join
obligatory attacks. What drives them in the current case? I really don't
know.

The worst thing is that anyone could be a target. Offenses can be minor
or imaginary. The person targeted doesn't have to be anyone important.
Calling such actions "witch hunts" is an overused cliche, but the
psychology appears very much like the denunciation of people as witches
in old Salem. Perhaps they think they're safer from denunciation if
they denounce first.

Keith F. Lynch

unread,
Jun 27, 2021, 3:20:40 PMJun 27
to
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Something about the culture of the left has become extremely toxic.
> It's more than just wanting to be on the "right side of history";
> they could affirm their positions energetically without needing to
> launch vicious attacks on their own members for deviance.

> It's like the purges of the Soviet Union, but there people were in
> danger of becoming unemployable or being imprisoned if they didn't
> join obligatory attacks. What drives them in the current case? I
> really don't know.

I agree. Unfortunately, it's not just the left. Many of my
Republican and conservative friends have been purged for daring
to criticize the former president, or even for saying that he is
the *former* (not current) president. Or for daring to wear a mask
or admit to receiving the vaccine.

There's always been disagreement on what policies should be, often
accompanied by intolerance of those who disagree. (Leftists think
anyone who opposes "common sense gun control" wants to see innocent
people massacred by thugs. Rightists think anyone who favors it
wants only crooks and cops to be armed, causing every law-abiding
person to be absolutely dependent on the state for protection.)

What's new is the profound disagreement on basic facts, such as who
won the election, whether the virus is real, whether there's a child
sex dungeon in a specific pizza restaurant in DC, and whether, when
a SWAT team once again gets the wrong address and massacres a whole
family at midnight, they did anything wrong or whether that family
deserved its fate because one of them tried to cover her nakedness,
which any reasonable cop would interpret as a deadly threat.
(There could have been a *gun* hidden in the blanket she grabbed.
It could happen.)

I must be doing something right, since I'm hated equally by both
sides. The left is pleased that I'm anti-police, but strongly opposed
to my claim that *I'm* a victim of the police, given my skin color,
which is "oppressor," not "oppressed," and for my claim that all lives
matter. (I wish they would spell out which lives don't matter.) The
right is pleased that I oppose "gun control" laws, but opposed to the
idea that *I* should ever be allowed to own a gun, given that I was
convicted of a non-violent crime, never mind that that was closer to
the time of Bonnie and Clyde than the present, or that the victim
hired me right out of prison, as they had proof of my innocence.

> The worst thing is that anyone could be a target. Offenses can be
> minor or imaginary. The person targeted doesn't have to be anyone
> important.

In the US, people can't (easily) be jailed for their beliefs, but they
certainly can be rendered unemployable. Indeed, if I weren't retired
I would keep my employer secret, so they couldn't be contacted by
haters. There's one woman who admits in her blog that her goal is
to get me expelled from fandom. I have no idea why she wants that.
I have no doubt she would also attempt to get me fired and get my
landlord to kick me out if she could. (There's a reason I never
publicly name my landlord/housemate or give my home address.)

> Calling such actions "witch hunts" is an overused cliche, but the
> psychology appears very much like the denunciation of people as
> witches in old Salem. Perhaps they think they're safer from
> denunciation if they denounce first.

Returning to the subject line, Balticon's code of conduct is somewhat
of a circular firing squad. Apparently when two people disagree on
something, whichever one complains to the con first automatically
prevails. (I haven't yet decided whether to attend Balticon next year.)

Perhaps part of it is that lawyers are increasingly unaffordable,
making any threat by a non-wealthy person to sue for slander or
libel not credible.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

unread,
Jun 28, 2021, 12:54:48 PMJun 28
to
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in
news:sb84a7$3ub$1...@reader1.panix.com:

> Mike Van Pelt <m...@shell.calweb.com> wrote:
>> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>>> Magewolf wrote:
>>>> Actual Nazis or self defined ones? Because the first are in
>>>> rather short supply.
>
>> Or "Politics marginally to the right of Nancy Pelosi", which by
>> some people's lights are Nazis by definition. (And they're not
>> too sure about Nancy.)
>
> I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere.
> And it's not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my
> favorite authors, mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in
> his latest blog post. He's become almost a self-parody of a
> woker-than-thou person.

Become? That's not in any way a change for Chuckles.
>
> There are reasonable criticisms of the libertarians, but calling
> them Nazis is shorthand for "Pay no attention to any of my
> political opinions, as I know nothing whatsoever on the topic,
> but consider myself a world expert."

Nazi, like racist, is a word that means "someone I diagree with and
want to kill because they won't do what I say."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

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Jun 28, 2021, 1:03:53 PMJun 28
to
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote in
news:sb9guo$8u5$1...@dont-email.me:
it's not about who is right and who is wrong. It's about making
vicious attacks against people who will be hurt by it. They've
resorted to attackign their own because people they actually
disagree with no longer take them seriously. If you make a big,
public demand for a boycott of a company for supporting
conservative causes, the end result will be to actually *increase*
their business. That's been a consistent pattern in recent years.
Call someone names, and they'll likely pick it up and wear it as a
badge.

It is only by attacking their own that they can actually cause
harm. The good news is, being reduced to attacking their own is
generally part of the end game for that kind of fascist movement,
and it looks like they've gotten there without gaining control of
society at large. (The mid term elections will be very, very
interesting next year.)

Scott Dorsey

unread,
Jun 29, 2021, 9:09:14 AMJun 29
to
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Nazi, like racist, is a word that means "someone I diagree with and
>want to kill because they won't do what I say."

"Anti-semitic white supremacist" is a mouthful and very clumsy. It is
hard to get it to fit into a sentence let alone into a song. So many
people use "Nazi" as a shortcut because it is easier and more convenient,
even though it may not technically be correct. It still seems appropriate
even if a person does not specifically wear the appropriate armband.

My grandmother was an actual fascist and I had a job that required regular
security screenings. It was very interesting explaining to the guys who
did the screening what fascism actually was (and how my grandmother supported
the Duce because he built a water tower in her village).
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Gary McGath

unread,
Jun 29, 2021, 10:52:58 AMJun 29
to
On 6/29/21 9:09 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nazi, like racist, is a word that means "someone I diagree with and
>> want to kill because they won't do what I say."
>
> "Anti-semitic white supremacist" is a mouthful and very clumsy. It is
> hard to get it to fit into a sentence let alone into a song. So many
> people use "Nazi" as a shortcut because it is easier and more convenient,
> even though it may not technically be correct. It still seems appropriate
> even if a person does not specifically wear the appropriate armband.

I think advocacy of a highly authoritarian central government is one of
the essential features of even a lower-case nazi. That's leaving aside
metaphorical uses like "Soup Nazi."

> My grandmother was an actual fascist and I had a job that required regular
> security screenings. It was very interesting explaining to the guys who
> did the screening what fascism actually was (and how my grandmother supported
> the Duce because he built a water tower in her village).

In the twenties amd early thirties, admiration for Fascism (meaning the
Mussolini philosophy of government) was fairly common in the US, and
people who took that position didn't generally become pariahs.

The poet Ezra Pound is a notable case, but he hung onto that position
even after World War II started, and people who made pro-Axis broadcasts
didn't get invited to a lot of parties in the US. He was an anti-Semite,
which wasn't a position of Italian Fascism until Italy's alliance with
Germany.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

unread,
Jun 29, 2021, 2:26:02 PMJun 29
to
klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
news:sbf61p$70g$1...@panix2.panix.com:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Nazi, like racist, is a word that means "someone I diagree with
>>and want to kill because they won't do what I say."
>
> "Anti-semitic white supremacist" is a mouthful and very clumsy.

So is "someone I diagree with
>>and want to kill because they won't do what I say."

> It is hard to get it to fit into a sentence let alone into a
> song. So many people use "Nazi" as a shortcut because it is
> easier and more convenient, even though it may not technically
> be correct. It still seems appropriate even if a person does
> not specifically wear the appropriate armband.

"someone I diagree with
>>and want to kill because they won't do what I say."
>
> My grandmother was an actual fascist and I had a job that
> required regular security screenings. It was very interesting
> explaining to the guys who did the screening what fascism
> actually was (and how my grandmother supported the Duce because
> he built a water tower in her village). --scott
>
And now, apparently, you're a fascist at heart, too, because that is
certainly the character of the left these days.
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