Authors condemn Chinese hosting of Worldcon

[Gary McGath]

An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the
hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about
Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and
Western-centric."

http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/


--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

[Scott Dorsey]

I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going
on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Alan Woodford]

Yep, it seems harsh to me to be boycotting fans who won playing by the rules,
because you despise their government...

I wonder how popular I'd have been for suggesting boycotting the Trump era
worldcons, becaue Trump is an embarrassment to humanity?

For the avoidance of doubt, I do put Donald J Trump ahead of Vladimir Putin
and Xi Jinping, but that is a bar so low an earthworm could jump over it!

Alan Woodford
The Greying Lensman

[Gary McGath]

You can't educate when you're constantly monitored and at risk of being
punished -- I'm talking about possible arrest -- for telling people what
is really going on.

Having events where Chinese fans can meet with others in a reasonably
safe jurisdiction would be great. Trying to educate people while
visiting a police state is both unwise and futile.

[Bernard Peek]

Democracy can be a bitch sometimes.

I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese Worldcon
will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty sure that it will
be a learning experience for a lot of people. That's usually a good thing to
have done even if what you learn is just not to do it again.

The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its
human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a bunch of
Westerners say so. I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored
unless they do something egregiously stupid. It seems to me that people who
think they are likely to be carted off to prison for criticising the Chinese
government either a) have an inflated opinion of their own importance or b)
plan to do something egregiously stupid.


--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

[Gary McGath]

On 3/9/22 5:43 AM, Bernard Peek wrote:
> On 2022-03-08, Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the
>> hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
>> action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
>> for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
>> not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about
>> Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and
>> Western-centric."
>>
>> http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
>
> Democracy can be a bitch sometimes.
>
> I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese Worldcon
> will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty sure that it will
> be a learning experience for a lot of people. That's usually a good thing to
> have done even if what you learn is just not to do it again.

Some "learning experiences" aren't worth it. People who took
hydroxychloroquinine for COVID had a learning experience too.

>
> The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its
> human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a bunch of
> Westerners say so. I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored
> unless they do something egregiously stupid. It seems to me that people who
> think they are likely to be carted off to prison for criticising the Chinese
> government either a) have an inflated opinion of their own importance or b)
> plan to do something egregiously stupid.

Some people who "had an inflated opinion of their own importance" when
athletes were going to the Olympics included Nancy Pelosi, Human Rights
Watch, and Global Athlete group. The Olympics had the protection of a
lot of public visibility. There won't be foreign news cameras all around
the Worldcon.

The prospect of a bunch of fans going over to China saying, "We'll tell
them what's what!" is noble but stupid. The "learning experience" isn't
worth it.



https://news.yahoo.com/pelosi-warns-olympic-athletes-against-220314265.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/18/athletes-warned-speaking-out-china-winter-olympics

https://www.visiontimes.com/2022/01/19/athletes-warned-against-speaking-about-politics-at-beijing-olympics.html

[Wolffan]

On 2022 Mar 07, Gary McGath wrote
(in article <t069u9$c14$1...@dont-email.me>):

I wouldn’t go if they paid me.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 3/8/22 9:14 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
>> western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going
>> on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
>
>You can't educate when you're constantly monitored and at risk of being
>punished -- I'm talking about possible arrest -- for telling people what
>is really going on.

That's the point. You can I can go to China and tell people what is going
on, when Chinese people cannot. You and I risk only being asked to leave
the country, where they might risk their life.

[Gary McGath]

It's your choice to take the risk, but it's very little benefit for a
risk which you don't fully recognize. Look again at all the warnings
given to the Olympic athletes. Remember the experience of the ones who
were put into quarantine. I wouldn't want to see any of my friends face
Chinese "justice" from engaging in a quixotic mission. If you try it, at
least plan very carefully and have backup options.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote in
news:slrnt2h16...@localhost.localdomain:

And will be largely ignored by the local con-goers anyway, since
those who are prosperous enough to attend will tend to be those who
are fine with things the way they are in China.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
news:t0aebc$br0$1...@panix2.panix.com:

China has never been hesitant to arrest foreigners who do things they
do not approve of.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> You can I can go to China and tell people what is going on, when
> Chinese people cannot. You and I risk only being asked to leave
> the country, where they might risk their life.

You are very much mistaken. The American embassy will do nothing for
you so long as you are treated no worse than the CCP treats their
own people. And the CCP has killed at least 45 million of their own
people, which is more than any other government, including Hitler's
and Stalin's. At least Hitler and Stalin were both later repudiated
by their respective governments. Mao was not.

Criticize the Chinese government while in China, and you're likely
to be sentenced to a lifetime of slavery in a re-education camp.
The good news is that they probably won't simply kill you, since
you might have value as a bargaining chip. "Let us subjugate Taiwan,
and we promise to free all of the Fandom Seven."
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
> I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.

Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's spokesman
started to speak.

We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to prevent
this from happening again. And to discuss which nations should not
be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that doesn't have free speech,
a free press, and freedom of religion, certainly, including China,
Russia, North Korea, and most Islamic countries including America's
alleged ally Saudi Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post
journalist's criticism by sawing him into pieces.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
> I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese
> Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty
> sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of people.

I for one prefer to learn from others' mistakes rather than my own.
Some learning experiences are not survivable.

> The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its
> human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a
> bunch of Westerners say so.

I'm sure they wouldn't be taken by surprise, but will be fully
prepared to immediately haul away the offending fans in handcuffs,
never to be seen again.

> I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored unless they do
> something egregiously stupid.

Something stupid like open their mouth while in China.

> It seems to me that people who think they are likely to be carted

> off to prison for criticizing the Chinese government either a) have

> an inflated opinion of their own importance or b) plan to do
> something egregiously stupid.

The Chinese government doesn't save their prison space for VIPs any
more than the US government does. There's plenty of capacity to go
around. Even if they locked up every westerner at the Worldcon, it
would take less than an acre to house them all in a prison farm.
And China has more than two billion acres.

[Gary McGath]

On 3/9/22 4:12 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>> I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
>
> Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
> Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's spokesman
> started to speak.
>
> We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to prevent
> this from happening again. And to discuss which nations should not
> be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that doesn't have free speech,
> a free press, and freedom of religion, certainly, including China,
> Russia, North Korea, and most Islamic countries including America's
> alleged ally Saudi Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post
> journalist's criticism by sawing him into pieces.

The authors' letter mentioned on File 770 called for "an amendment where
bidding cities do not qualify if an on-going genocide is being carried
out that is recognized by either an independent verified tribunal or
international human rights organizations." We might like a stronger
standard, but that would be a good start. Because of the way WSFS cycles
work, it wouldn't affect the Chengdu Worldcon, but it could prevent repeats.

It's a strange world where N. K. Jemsin gets called a racist for
criticizing the Chinese government.

One of the convention guests is Sergey Lukianenko, a Russian author who
loves the Ukraine invasion and has called the Ukrainians Nazis.

[Bernard Peek]

On 2022-03-09, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com> wrote:
>> I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
>
> Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
> Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's spokesman
> started to speak.
>
> We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to prevent
> this from happening again. And to discuss which nations should not
> be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that doesn't have free speech,
> a free press, and freedom of religion, certainly, including China,
> Russia, North Korea, and most Islamic countries including America's
> alleged ally Saudi Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post
> journalist's criticism by sawing him into pieces.

You could draft a change to the WSFS constitution to that effect. The
problem is that there are no countries that unambiguously comply with your
proposed restrictions.


--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

[Bernard Peek]

On 2022-03-09, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
>> I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese
>> Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty
>> sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of people.
>
> I for one prefer to learn from others' mistakes rather than my own.
> Some learning experiences are not survivable.
>
>> The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its
>> human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a
>> bunch of Westerners say so.
>
> I'm sure they wouldn't be taken by surprise, but will be fully
> prepared to immediately haul away the offending fans in handcuffs,
> never to be seen again.
>
>> I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored unless they do
>> something egregiously stupid.
>
> Something stupid like open their mouth while in China.

I said egregiously stupid. The Chinese are likely to consider someone who
comments adversely on the government as boorish rather than criminal. But
anyone going there looking for trouble will certainly find as much as they
can handle, and more.

My late Brother-in-Law went into his hotel room in Germany, stepped on to
the balcony overlooking the town square and locked the door behind him. He
proceded to deliver one of Hitler's speeches at full volume complete with
theatrical gestures. He was eventually taken into police custody, escorted
to the nearest border and told never to darken their borders again.

Deporting idiots is easier and cheaper than keeping them in jail. And it
doesn't have diplomatic repercussions. Even better they will then be a
fundamental pain to someone else.



--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote in

news:slrnt2jmm...@localhost.localdomain:

I doubt even Keith could provide a functaional, measurable definiton
of "freedom of speech" beyond "If I don't like what you say, you
should be punished for saying it."

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote in

news:slrnt2jns...@localhost.localdomain:

And yet, China has a long history of arresting foreigners who
displease them, even at the cost of an international incident. The
most prominent cases are missionaries who violate China's brutal
restrictions on religious freedom, but they've also been known to
arrest foreign billionaires purely for political purposes,
sometimes with the *intent* of causing a diplomatic incident.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/china-foreigners-
detained.html

Even the US is hesitant to get too involved in such a conflict.

[Gary McGath]

On 3/10/22 6:22 AM, Bernard Peek wrote:
> I said egregiously stupid. The Chinese are likely to consider someone who
> comments adversely on the government as boorish rather than criminal. But
> anyone going there looking for trouble will certainly find as much as they
> can handle, and more.

Lets look at the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. The
"egregiously stupid" thing they did was to be in China when the
government needed someone to retaliate against for the detention of Meng
Wanzhou. They were held for over a year before they were charged with
anything. They were released almost three years after their arrest,
following closed-door negotiations between the Canadian and Chinese
governments.

I don't think Keith's scenario of mass arrests is likely. The Chinese
government knows how to apply smaller amounts of force for maximum
effect. They can treat people as "boorish rather than criminal," holding
them indefinitely without charges or confiscating their phones and
computers, but that's small consolation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-53104303

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spavor-release-intl-hnk/index.html

[Gary McGath]

On 3/9/22 4:37 PM, Gary McGath wrote:

> One of the convention guests is Sergey Lukianenko, a Russian author who
> loves the Ukraine invasion and has called the Ukrainians Nazis.
>

Here's another call for disinviting Lukianenko. I don't like the idea of
disinviting speakers who have popular, even contemptible, views once
they've been invited. Rather, the audience should have the opportunity
to demolish them with questions. In China, though, that can be a risky
thing to do.

http://www.concatenation.org/news/news4~22.html#editorial

[Scott Dorsey]

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>And yet, China has a long history of arresting foreigners who
>displease them, even at the cost of an international incident. The
>most prominent cases are missionaries who violate China's brutal
>restrictions on religious freedom, but they've also been known to
>arrest foreign billionaires purely for political purposes,
>sometimes with the *intent* of causing a diplomatic incident.
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/china-foreigners-
>detained.html

Yes, precisely.

It's interesting to watch that list because there are some people on there
who did egregious things that one would certainly expect to get such a
response but there are ALSO a large number of people who were arrested
only as a response to some Chinese citizen being arrested in another country.

>Even the US is hesitant to get too involved in such a conflict.

That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for spying, we'll
arrest your people for spying whether or not we have evidence."

These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans who have
said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese government.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 3/9/22 4:37 PM, Gary McGath wrote:
>
>> One of the convention guests is Sergey Lukianenko, a Russian author who
>> loves the Ukraine invasion and has called the Ukrainians Nazis.
>
>Here's another call for disinviting Lukianenko. I don't like the idea of
>disinviting speakers who have popular, even contemptible, views once
>they've been invited. Rather, the audience should have the opportunity
>to demolish them with questions. In China, though, that can be a risky
>thing to do.

The Nazi thing has an interesting history, though, and it's kind of
understandable from the viewpoint of the Russian government.

There's of course been a longstanding dislike of the Czar going way back,
but a couple of things after the revolution (namely the forced collectivization
and the anti-kulak campaigns) which caused demonstrations in Ukraine and a
huge surge of resentment against the Soviet government in the 1920s. The
widespread famine which resulted as a consequence of the collectivization
made things much worse. So when the Germans started taking land in the 1930s,
a lot of Ukranians put their lot in with Germany figuring that they can't be
any worse than the Russians.

There were Ukranian brigades in the German army and of course there have
always been a lot of Germans living in Ukraine anyway. All of this turned
out badly for Germany and Ukraine in the end.

But... as a consequence with a lot of Russians whose heads are stuck in the
Stalin era, they associate Ukrainian resistance with Nazis. And many of
them are genuinely confused about why the West would support them.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in

news:t0gc5e$eil$1...@panix2.panix.com:

If they're looking to make a political piont, the subject of the
arrest may well be random.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gary McGath]

On 3/11/22 3:49 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The Nazi thing has an interesting history, though, and it's kind of
> understandable from the viewpoint of the Russian government.
>
> There's of course been a longstanding dislike of the Czar going way back,
> but a couple of things after the revolution (namely the forced collectivization
> and the anti-kulak campaigns) which caused demonstrations in Ukraine and a
> huge surge of resentment against the Soviet government in the 1920s. The
> widespread famine which resulted as a consequence of the collectivization
> made things much worse. So when the Germans started taking land in the 1930s,
> a lot of Ukranians put their lot in with Germany figuring that they can't be
> any worse than the Russians.
>
> There were Ukranian brigades in the German army and of course there have
> always been a lot of Germans living in Ukraine anyway. All of this turned
> out badly for Germany and Ukraine in the end.
>
> But... as a consequence with a lot of Russians whose heads are stuck in the
> Stalin era, they associate Ukrainian resistance with Nazis. And many of
> them are genuinely confused about why the West would support them.

And there's the Azov battalion, which really is heavily associated with
Nazis. It operates under Ukraine's armed forces, though it often does
stuff without authorization.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Lets look at the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. The
> "egregiously stupid" thing they did was to be in China when the
> government needed someone to retaliate against for the detention
> of Meng Wanzhou. They were held for over a year before they were
> charged with anything. They were released almost three years
> after their arrest, following closed-door negotiations between
> the Canadian and Chinese governments.

Indeed. Anyone here who goes to the Chinese Worldcon and gets
arrested, don't come running to me. All I can do is warn people.

> I don't think Keith's scenario of mass arrests is likely.

Nor do I. I was just pointing out that China has room to lock up
millions of people.

I mentioned the "Fandom Seven," implying that seven is a plausible
number of fans to be locked up at the Worldcon for the "crime" of
implying that Mao might not have been the greatest man who ever lived.

[Scott Dorsey]

Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
>>

>> That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for
>> spying, we'll arrest your people for spying whether or not we
>> have evidence."
>>
>> These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans
>> who have said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese
>> government.
>

>If they're looking to make a political piont, the subject of the
>arrest may well be random.

Random with constraints, perhaps. They'll pick someone guaranteed to
get publicity, because that's what they want.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>
>And there's the Azov battalion, which really is heavily associated with
>Nazis. It operates under Ukraine's armed forces, though it often does
>stuff without authorization.

That's a head-scratcher, and it's mostly made up of people from abroad.
Whether they are Nazis or not is a valid question, and it's hard to answer
when anti-semitism in the area is so ingrained that it isn't even a
distinguishing characteristic of Nazis.

Putin accusing anyone of anti-semitism is clearly a case of the pot calling
the kettle black, so clearly anti-semitism is not the identifying
characteristic of Nazis in his mind if that's what he's thinking of.

The Spanish Civil War had a lot of organizations like that, and the whole
"Enemy of my enemy must be my friend" thing kind of broke down pretty badly
on both (or all three? Or all four?) sides of the war. It doesn't look
promising, does it?

[Ninapenda Jibini]

klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in

news:t0jaal$mi3$1...@panix2.panix.com:

> Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
>>>
>>> That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for
>>> spying, we'll arrest your people for spying whether or not we
>>> have evidence."
>>>
>>> These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans
>>> who have said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese
>>> government.
>>
>>If they're looking to make a political piont, the subject of the
>>arrest may well be random.
>
> Random with constraints, perhaps. They'll pick someone
> guaranteed to get publicity, because that's what they want.

You really believe the Chinese government couldn't generate whatever
publicity they want on demand? Certainly they could within China, if
their intended audience of the message were their own people. "Look,
even the US government can't keep its own citizens from being
arrested when they criticize us."

[Gary McGath]

On 3/12/22 5:22 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> Lets look at the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. The
>> "egregiously stupid" thing they did was to be in China when the
>> government needed someone to retaliate against for the detention
>> of Meng Wanzhou. They were held for over a year before they were
>> charged with anything. They were released almost three years
>> after their arrest, following closed-door negotiations between
>> the Canadian and Chinese governments.
>
> Indeed. Anyone here who goes to the Chinese Worldcon and gets
> arrested, don't come running to me. All I can do is warn people.

It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
walking into major trouble.

It's common to hear of Americans abroad who think the Bill of Rights
protects them no matter where they are. It doesn't even do a great job
of protecting us here in the USA.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
>Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
>walking into major trouble.

Indeed. Acting like idiot missionaries is always a bad plan.

>It's common to hear of Americans abroad who think the Bill of Rights
>protects them no matter where they are. It doesn't even do a great job
>of protecting us here in the USA.

You want to know what really freaks Chinese people out? "When I was
a kid, Pittsburgh was all smoky like Beijing is today. The streetlights
were on at noon! But the people that lived there got upset about it and
so the government forced companies to clean up their pollution. If you
don't believe me you can see pictures of the city."

When people have a very inaccurate view of the US, it does not take much
to shift it slightly.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
>> Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
>> walking into major trouble.

Right. Very few fans have diplomatic immunity.

> Indeed. Acting like idiot missionaries is always a bad plan.

Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by
Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)

[Scott Dorsey]

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
>for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by
>Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
>execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)

Not all missionaries are like in "Lispeth." Far too many of them are,
though.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <t0lgc1$qd0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> > Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> >> It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
> >> Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
> >> walking into major trouble.
>
> Right. Very few fans have diplomatic immunity.
>
> > Indeed. Acting like idiot missionaries is always a bad plan.
>
> Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
> for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by
> Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
> execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)

Birch was an US Army officer at the time (late August 1945),

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[j.hal...@rogers.com]

"You want to know what really freaks Chinese people out? "When I was
a kid, Pittsburgh was all smoky like Beijing is today. The streetlights
were on at noon! But the people that lived there got upset about it and
so the government forced companies to clean up their pollution. If you
don't believe me you can see pictures of the city.""

The people forced all of the steel mills to move to China

John

[Mike Van Pelt]

In article <robertaw-281824...@news.individual.net>,

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <t0lgc1$qd0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
>> for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by
>> Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
>> execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)
>
>Birch was an US Army officer at the time (late August 1945),

Birch worked with the Chinese to resist the Empire of Japan's
occupation. He even worked with Communists to that end.
As soon as he was no longer necessary, the Communists murdered him.

(And, he would quite likely have been utterly appalled at the
organization which took his name after his death.)