<smacks hand to forehead> Oh.
Karen E Cooper
Two AM, and I'm listening to the BBC on the radio. One of the
reporters had been to the UK's Antarctic base, and did a story about
learning to haul herself out ice crevices and sleeping out in a tent at
-40 and suchlike activities.
She slept out on a "glah-cee-ay." I'm playing computer solitaire, and
sort of listening, and I realized I didn't know what a glah-cee-ay was.
And me a Minnesotan, and a former Girl Scout who has actually been camping
in the winter. Must be some kind of camping mattress, I was thinking.
Pulled out a dictionary. Started to open it, even. D'oh.
Karen. [and don't I feel like a moron *again*]
Kate Schaefer
That BBC reporter used the term incorrectly. "Glah-cee-ay" is the
optional sauce poured over and around a baked Alaska.
(always happy to provide definitions)
--
Kate Schaefer
ka...@scn.org
Dorothy J Heydt
Karen E Cooper <keco...@garnet.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
>She slept out on a "glah-cee-ay."...
>
>Pulled out a dictionary. Started to open it, even. D'oh.
Hmmm. That reporter would have had serious trouble with Mr.
Heinlein's line from _Tramp Royale_: "Come on, let's go north and
watch the glaciers glashe."
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
_A Point of Honor_ is out....
Ulrika
>That BBC reporter used the term incorrectly. "Glah-cee-ay" is the
>optional sauce poured over and around a baked Alaska.
Dang. I thought it was someone who makes icecream.
[Hmm. That may only work as a Swedish/French pun. Be
nice if my native tongue was something other than one
of the cute little boutique languages they make in Scandinavia...]
--Ulrika
"Yes, indeed, the Lord is a shoving leopard." -- Rev. W.A. Spooner
** Ulrika O'Brien-...@aol.com**
Mary Kay Kare
(Ulrika) wrote:
> In article <F7zAs...@scn.org>, ka...@scn.org (Kate Schaefer) writes:
>
> >That BBC reporter used the term incorrectly. "Glah-cee-ay" is the
> >optional sauce poured over and around a baked Alaska.
>
> Dang. I thought it was someone who makes icecream.
>
> [Hmm. That may only work as a Swedish/French pun.
Well, yes and no. I didn't think of it, but I got it as soon as you said
it. Of course, I live with Jordin and so have a very *godd* pun detector.
MK
--
Mary Kay Kare
"Joltin' Joe has left and gone away."
Doug Wickstrom
set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
Vad betydar "godd"?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"The Internet is a great way to get on the Net." --Bob Dole
Mary Kay Kare
wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:27:26 -0800, ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare)
> set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>
> >In article <19990310014215...@ngol07.aol.com>, ulr...@aol.com
> >(Ulrika) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <F7zAs...@scn.org>, ka...@scn.org (Kate Schaefer) writes:
> >>
> >> >That BBC reporter used the term incorrectly. "Glah-cee-ay" is the
> >> >optional sauce poured over and around a baked Alaska.
> >>
> >> Dang. I thought it was someone who makes icecream.
> >>
> >> [Hmm. That may only work as a Swedish/French pun.
> >
> >Well, yes and no. I didn't think of it, but I got it as soon as you said
> >it. Of course, I live with Jordin and so have a very *godd* pun detector.
>
> Vad betydar "godd"?
Typo of good which I saw immediately after I sent the message.
Ulrika
>Vad betydar "godd"?
Förresten, vad betyder <<betydar>> ?
Ulrika, enjoying the novelty of a Swedish-language
spelling /f/l/a/m/e/ quibble (and don't ya just hate irregular
verbs?)
Doug Wickstrom
adance worldwide by saying:
>In article <36ee8e38...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>
>>Vad betydar "godd"?
>
>Förresten, vad betyder <<betydar>> ?
Förlåt!
>Ulrika, enjoying the novelty of a Swedish-language
>spelling /f/l/a/m/e/ quibble (and don't ya just hate irregular
>verbs?)
Yeah. Oops.
The whole damned language has gone cockeyed in the last century. You
could have knocked me over with a feather when I was told that the
second person singular formal had been dropped at the d/e/c/r/e/e
suggestion of statsminister Palme. There're already too many people
who don't understand the joke behind the Knights Who Say Ni, what with
the dropping of titles as a social imperative. This simplification
drive has simply got to stop, or next they'll be replacing "älg" with
"mos." I just hope simplification stops after the regularization of
all verbs. It would be nice to do something with the en/et problem,
too. It keeps biting. If I had a sister, it would bite her once,
too.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology,
in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."
--Carl Sagan
Colette Reap
>On 12 Mar 1999 03:24:14 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) set electrons
>adance worldwide by saying:
>
>>Ulrika, enjoying the novelty of a Swedish-language
>>spelling /f/l/a/m/e/ quibble (and don't ya just hate irregular
>>verbs?)
AOL :-)
<snip>
> I just hope simplification stops after the regularization of
>all verbs. It would be nice to do something with the en/et problem,
>too. It keeps biting.
It could be worse. I usually work on the principle that about 75% of
words are 'en' words, so if I'm not sure if it's an 'en' or 'ett', if
I use 'en' I've got a fairly good chance of getting it right.
--
Colette
Johan Anglemark
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>
>>Vad betydar "godd"?
>
>Förresten, vad betyder <<betydar>> ?
>
>Ulrika, enjoying the novelty of a Swedish-language
>spelling /f/l/a/m/e/ quibble (and don't ya just hate irregular
>verbs?)
I'm studiously staying out of this one ;-)
-Johan
--
Johan Anglemark johan.a...@bahnhof.se
http://www.bahnhof.se/~anglemar
Europeisk Förening för SF: http://sfweb.dang.se
Johan Anglemark
xnims...@aol.com:
>Yeah. Oops.
>
>The whole damned language has gone cockeyed in the last century. You
>could have knocked me over with a feather when I was told that the
>second person singular formal had been dropped at the d/e/c/r/e/e
>suggestion of statsminister Palme.
That's quite far from what happened.
OK, briefly:
Swedish 50 years ago used to have a very cumbersome system of titles and
addressing. You had to say "ni" (you/vous/Sie) to some people, you were
allowed to say "du" (thou/tu/du) to others and in some instances you had to
use the full title ("How does the Minister like the pudding?"). The system
left people unsure and was mainly used to mark superiority in rank, and
moreover it was falling apart as time passed by.
So in the 1960s, the director-general for the National Board of Health and
Welfare issued an internal memorandum, stating that within the Board all
employees should lay away the titles and address each other with "du". This
caught on and spread like wildfire, and the Swedish people adopted the
custom with a sense of relief.
The second singular formal was never used to mark respect and courtesy,
like its counterparts in French and German, it was used to mark distance.
<SWEDISH>
De citerade meningarna nedan är tagna ur Perry Ahlgrens avhandling
_Tilltalsordet ni_ från 1978.
"Ni har aldrig varit allmänt godtaget och allmänt brukat på samma sätt
som motsvarande former i franskan (vous), tyskan (Sie) och danskan
(De). Däremot har substantiviska tilltalsformer nått en utbredning i
svenskan som i knappast något annat språk, möjligen med undantag av
portugisiskan (Svennung 1958). En annan för vårt språk egenartad
företeelse är utsträckt användning av omskrivningar i stället för
explicit tilltalsform (Paulston 1976). En utomstående iakttagare, den
norske språkmannen Trygve Knudsen, finner att svenskan har 'et höyst
tungvint og omstendelig tiltaleapparat' och att svenskarna tvingas
till 'de snodigste krumspring' när den tilltalades namn och titel är
obekanta (1949:10). De här för svenska språket säregna förhållandena
har väckt uppm(rksamhet både bland lekmän och vetenskapsmän, och
försök har gjorts att med propagandans hjälp tillförsäkra ordet ni en
plats i tilltalsordssystemet likvärdig med t.ex. danskans De."
Niandet slog emellertid aldrig riktigt igenom i svenskan, beroende på
att "ni" för så många var stötande eller oacceptabelt i många
situationer. "ni" som tilltal beskrevs i enkäter, insändare, osv bland
annat som "kränkande, avskyvärt, oförskämt" osv osv. "Wessen (1968a:53
f.) konstaterar att 'ni' uppfattades som ohövligt i äldre tider, att
det med tiden känts alltmer omöjligt och stötande att säga 'ni' och
att ordet alltjämt har en obehaglig klang för många. Paulston
(1976:379) iakttog under fältstudierna i Stockholm att affärsbiträden
i varuhusen Nordiska kompaniet, Domus och OBS normalt undviker 'ni' i
samtal med kunderna. Deras attityd är att 'ni' är oartigt."
Detta innebär ingalunda att 'ni' inte var vanligt
förekommande. Ahlgren noterar: "För personer födda under 1930-talet
och senare torde 'ni' i stor utsträckning ha förlorat sin tidigare
delvis ohövliga prägel - åtminstone i sociala över- och mellanskikt i
Sydsverige - då enligt Bjerstedts undersökningar de svenska
studenternas upplevelse av 'ni' i stort sett överensstämmer med de
norskas av De och de tyskas av Sie. Ni torde for denna åldersgrupp på
det hela taget framstå som ett något distanserande men fullt
godtagbart tilltalsord, lämpat för opersonliga och tillfälliga
kontakter." Situationen var förstås en annan då artighet var påkallad
och den distanserande opersonligheten hos 'ni' var helt maplacerad.
</SWEDISH>
>There're already too many people
>who don't understand the joke behind the Knights Who Say Ni, what with
>the dropping of titles as a social imperative.
Outrageous, I know. Nowadays we can hardly move around without some
Knights coming up, shouting "Du"!
>This simplification
>drive has simply got to stop, or next they'll be replacing "älg" with
>"mos."
The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
replaced by mos.
-j
Doug Wickstrom
Anglemark) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>replaced by mos.
I'd not like to rely on the älg becoming mos in that situation. One
might get stuck with one hell of a repair bil, instead.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass,
and I'm just the one to do it." --a Texas congressional candidate
Johan Anglemark
xnims...@aol.com:
>Johan Anglemark set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>
>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>replaced by mos.
>
>I'd not like to rely on the älg becoming mos in that situation. One
>might get stuck with one hell of a repair bil, instead.
Oh no, the bil won't be hel any longer, not after a crock with a mos.
-J
Dorothy J Heydt
Johan Anglemark <johan.a...@bahnhof.se> wrote:
>So in the 1960s, the director-general for the National Board of Health and
>Welfare issued an internal memorandum, stating that within the Board all
>employees should lay away the titles and address each other with "du". This
>caught on and spread like wildfire, and the Swedish people adopted the
>custom with a sense of relief.
Was that the time and place where people went around wearing
buttons saying ~"I don't say 'Ni' and I hope you don't either"~ ?
>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>replaced by mos.
This part I don't understand at all; I only had one semester of
Swedish. Could you explain, please?
Doug Wickstrom
Heydt) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
mos (pronounced moose, more or less) = mush
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle, and will
piss on your fanzines."
Dorothy J Heydt
Doug Wickstrom <xnims...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>>replaced by mos.
>>
>>This part I don't understand at all; I only had one semester of
>>Swedish. Could you explain, please?
>
>mos (pronounced moose, more or less) = mush
>
(which, I must explain, comes out on my newsreader as "dlg" and
in my editor as backslash-xe4lg . They only read ASCII.)
(so I had to cut-and-paste it.)
Doug Wickstrom
Anglemark) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>Scríobh san airteagal <36eadcc1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
>xnims...@aol.com:
>
>>Johan Anglemark set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>>
>>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>>replaced by mos.
>>
>>I'd not like to rely on the älg becoming mos in that situation. One
>>might get stuck with one hell of a repair bil, instead.
>
>Oh no, the bil won't be hel any longer, not after a crock with a mos.
I suppose one could say that the bil has croaked.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." --Marion Barry
Doug Wickstrom
Heydt) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>In article <36edd196...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>Doug Wickstrom <xnims...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>>>replaced by mos.
>>>
>>>This part I don't understand at all; I only had one semester of
>>>Swedish. Could you explain, please?
>>
>>mos (pronounced moose, more or less) = mush
>>
>Oh. And what's älg ?
Elk, aka moose.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions
and have a tremendous impact on history." --Dan Quayle
Dorothy J Heydt
Oh. Now I get it. The elk leaves the forest, encounters a car,
and becomes not moose but mush.
(BTW, in North America "elk" and "moose" are different species,
distinguished for starters by the shape of the antlers.)
Now for the real stumper: how did all that tie in with ni/du?
Or did it?
Ulrika
Wickstrom) writes:
>On 12 Mar 1999 03:24:14 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) set electrons
>adance worldwide by saying:
>
>>In article <36ee8e38...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>>
>>>Vad betydar "godd"?
>>
>>Förresten, vad betyder <<betydar>> ?
>
>Förlåt!
Hmm. I don't think this quite works. I'll defer to any of the
more trained native speakers, but I don't think that
'förlåt' operates as a perfect translation of 'sorry'. While
you do use förlåt when you've done something to injure
someone else, be it physically, emotionally, or socially,
I don't think it's quite done in cases where you mean to
say something like 'oops, I goofed' where no one is harmed
by your mistake.
That's my gut sense of it, anyway.
Ulrika
Reap) writes:
>It could be worse. I usually work on the principle that about 75% of
>words are 'en' words, so if I'm not sure if it's an 'en' or 'ett', if
>I use 'en' I've got a fairly good chance of getting it right.
Good rule. It seems to be what I operate on, myself. Certainly
I was deeply surprised to find that it's <<ett poem>> and
not <<en poem>>.
Ulrika
johan.a...@bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) writes:
[snip most of an interesting article tracing the disappearance
of 'ni' in spoken Swedish]
>Deras attityd är att 'ni' är oartigt."
Fascinating. I got to spend a couple of months in Swedish
grade school in, oh, it must have been 1973, and on a field
trip I remember we were all reminded that we should be
addressing adult strangers as 'ni' because we were supposed
to be using our very best manners. (The 'ni' business was utter
news to me-- having lived away from Sweden some
five years by then, I'd no practice speaking Swedish to
strangers) Are children still expected to say 'ni' to their elders
when being polite, or is that phasing out also?
[snip to quoting Doug]
>>This simplification
>>drive has simply got to stop, or next they'll be replacing "älg" with
>>"mos."
>
>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in >the
forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is
>suddenly replaced by mos.
*Snort!* RASFF award!
Ulrika
johan.a...@bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) writes:
>Scríobh san airteagal <36eadcc1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
>xnims...@aol.com:
>
>>Johan Anglemark set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>>
>>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>>replaced by mos.
>>
>>I'd not like to rely on the älg becoming mos in that situation. One
>>might get stuck with one hell of a repair bil, instead.
>
>Oh no, the bil won't be hel any longer, not after a crock with a mos.
Oh! Oww! Stop! You're killing me. Make that a RASFF award
with short-fuse bilingual pun grenade clusters.
Ulrika
(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>mos (pronounced moose, more or less) = mush
Um, mash, more like. Most usually used to refer to
mashed potatoes, but I think any mashed root vegetable
would do. Mush, I think, refers to things made with grain.
That's gröt.
Ulrika
writes:
>(BTW, in North America "elk" and "moose" are different species,
>distinguished for starters by the shape of the antlers.)
Been there, done that. Haven't you been keeping up with
your thread summaries? Now Björn will feel compelled to
chime in and explain that the North American moose is in fact
an elk, and that what are called elk here are in fact a large
variety of deer, and that this whole moose/elk misnomer problem
is a huge American blunder that would never happen in Norway,
which has been perfect ever since the discovery of North Sea oil
afforded every snorig bonddjävul the price of toilet paper so he could discard
his stick, and put on airs.
Doug Wickstrom
Heydt) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>In article <36ed1cc5...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>Doug Wickstrom <xnims...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>Oh. And what's älg ?
>>
>>Elk, aka moose.
>
>Oh. Now I get it. The elk leaves the forest, encounters a car,
>and becomes not moose but mush.
>
>(BTW, in North America "elk" and "moose" are different species,
>distinguished for starters by the shape of the antlers.)
>
>Now for the real stumper: how did all that tie in with ni/du?
>Or did it?
"The Knights Who Say 'Ni!'" and moose jokes. "Monty Python and the
Holy Grail."
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."
--Albert Einstein
Doug Wickstrom
adance worldwide by saying:
>In article <F8JI...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>writes:
>
>>(BTW, in North America "elk" and "moose" are different species,
>>distinguished for starters by the shape of the antlers.)
>
>Been there, done that. Haven't you been keeping up with
>your thread summaries? Now Björn will feel compelled to
>chime in and explain that the North American moose is in fact
>an elk, and that what are called elk here are in fact a large
>variety of deer, and that this whole moose/elk misnomer problem
>is a huge American blunder that would never happen in Norway,
>which has been perfect ever since the discovery of North Sea oil
>afforded every snorig bonddjävul the price of toilet paper so he could discard
>his stick, and put on airs.
It's only because Norway is so inferior as to have but a single
species of deer.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"A leopard never changes his stripes." --Al Gore
Ailsa N Murphy
>Heydt) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>
>>In article <36edd196...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>>Doug Wickstrom <xnims...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The cars do that already. There you have your älg moving around in the
>>>>>forest, than it walks out onto a road, meets with a car, and is suddenly
>>>>>replaced by mos.
>>>>
>>>>Swedish. Could you explain, please?
>>>
>>>
>
>Elk, aka moose.
Then you al have bigger cars or smaller mooses than we do up
home.
-Ailsa
--
Stand in the fire an...@world.std.com
Go to the wire Ailsa N.T. Murphy
Dreams and desire
They will lead you home. - Jefferson starship (?)
Ulrika
writes:
>Then you al have bigger cars or smaller mooses than we do up
>home.
Yes, Swedish (and, presumably Norwegian & Finnish -- I'll be surprised if there
are any wild ones in Denmark) älg are in fact somewhat smaller than the North
American moose, if memory serves.
But only somewhat. They're pretty darn big, yessir. So if
you mean that the älg would be unlikely to be rendered a full-blown
road pizza, you're right. And as Johan points out, the impact
would be no damn good at all for the car. Still, even a moose is
likely to be a bit worse for the wear when struck by a hurtling
Volvo on a darkened road by moonlight.
Johan Anglemark
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>johan.a...@bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) writes:
>
>[snip most of an interesting article tracing the disappearance
>of 'ni' in spoken Swedish]
>
>>Deras attityd är att 'ni' är oartigt."
>
>Fascinating. I got to spend a couple of months in Swedish
>grade school in, oh, it must have been 1973, and on a field
>trip I remember we were all reminded that we should be
>addressing adult strangers as 'ni' because we were supposed
>to be using our very best manners. (The 'ni' business was utter
>news to me-- having lived away from Sweden some
>five years by then, I'd no practice speaking Swedish to
>strangers) Are children still expected to say 'ni' to their elders
>when being polite, or is that phasing out also?
This was obsolete already then, if you recall the incident correctly. I
remember being told to address _elderly_ people 'ni', but never young or
middle-aged adults. And when I found out that even many elderly people took
offence at being "ni'd" (yeah, come on with yer Holy Grail jokes here), I
was a bit perplexed, because that wasn't at all what I had been told.
Interestingly enough, there has been something of a revival of the 'ni'
among young people (under 25), who know nothing of it's history and think
it's just nice and courteous. I never know whether to tell them off or not.
Johan Anglemark
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>
>>mos (pronounced moose, more or less) = mush
>
>Um, mash, more like. Most usually used to refer to
>mashed potatoes, but I think any mashed root vegetable
>would do. Mush, I think, refers to things made with grain.
>That's gröt.
My dictionary says "mos, röra, gröt, sörja", but you're right. If we talk
food, "mos" is vegetables or fruit, not grain.
Johan Anglemark
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>Doug Wickstrom writes:
>>Ulrika set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>>>Doug Wickstrom writes:
>>>
>>>>Vad betydar "godd"?
>>>
>>>Förresten, vad betyder <<betydar>> ?
>>
>>Förlåt!
>
>Hmm. I don't think this quite works. I'll defer to any of the
>more trained native speakers, but I don't think that
>'förlåt' operates as a perfect translation of 'sorry'. While
>you do use förlåt when you've done something to injure
>someone else, be it physically, emotionally, or socially,
>I don't think it's quite done in cases where you mean to
>say something like 'oops, I goofed' where no one is harmed
>by your mistake.
>
>That's my gut sense of it, anyway.
You're perfectly correct, Ulrika.
Johan Anglemark
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>Ailsa N Murphy writes:
>
>>Then you al have bigger cars or smaller mooses than we do up
>>home.
>
>Yes, Swedish (and, presumably Norwegian & Finnish -- I'll be surprised if there
>are any wild ones in Denmark) älg are in fact somewhat smaller than the North
>American moose, if memory serves.
Yep, you're right. I would guess they are 10-15% smaller. Large enough, though.
Doug Wickstrom
Anglemark) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>This was obsolete already then, if you recall the incident correctly. I
>remember being told to address _elderly_ people 'ni', but never young or
>middle-aged adults. And when I found out that even many elderly people took
>offence at being "ni'd" (yeah, come on with yer Holy Grail jokes here), I
>was a bit perplexed, because that wasn't at all what I had been told.
There was a different reason, I think. I was taught, at an early age
(I stopped speaking Swedish at around 5, as there was no longer anyone
to talk to regularly) that important strangers, and elderly people in
particular, would be highly offended by "ni," even if used properly.
The appropriate form of address, if I didn't know a name and title for
the person, would be "far," "farfar," "mor," or "mormor." I don't
think a single one of these people would have left Sweden after 1930,
or so; we're really talking about a different age and different
customs. When my father brought a friend of his mother's home for
dinner, my brother and I were banished from the table, and were
instructed to address her in the third person as "Fröken Gustaffson,"
and never to use "ni" or "you," and absolutely not "Greta." Years
later I learned that she really didn't mind "ni," or even "Greta."
She just wanted to be alone.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Qui gravis es nimium, potes hinc iam, lector, abire quo libet."
--Martial, Epigrams XI.16
Doug Wickstrom
Anglemark) set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>Scríobh san airteagal <19990314160023...@ngol05.aol.com>
>ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>
>>Ailsa N Murphy writes:
>>
>>>Then you al have bigger cars or smaller mooses than we do up
>>>home.
>>
>>Yes, Swedish (and, presumably Norwegian & Finnish -- I'll be surprised if there
>>are any wild ones in Denmark) älg are in fact somewhat smaller than the North
>>American moose, if memory serves.
>
>Yep, you're right. I would guess they are 10-15% smaller. Large enough, though.
They're about the size of a Shiras Moose, with similar antler spread,
and similar feeding habits. 6.5 x 55 is considered adequate, I think,
for the Scandinavian version, though I'd rather have a 7.62 x 63 or
larger.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"The streets are safe in Philadelphia. It's only the people that
make them unsafe." --Frank Rizzo
Gary Farber
Ulrika <ulr...@aol.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: But only somewhat. They're pretty darn big, yessir. So if
: you mean that the älg would be unlikely to be rendered a full-blown
: road pizza, you're right. And as Johan points out, the impact
: would be no damn good at all for the car. Still, even a moose is
: likely to be a bit worse for the wear when struck by a hurtling
: Volvo on a darkened road by moonlight.
Being Scandanaivian, and thus faintly Kryptonian in their Bjornian
superiority, it's the sunlight that renders them invulerable to harm by
day, of course.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Janice Gelb for DUFF!
Graydon
>ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika):
>>Ailsa N Murphy writes:
>>>Then you al have bigger cars or smaller mooses than we do up
>>>home.
>>Yes, Swedish (and, presumably Norwegian & Finnish -- I'll be surprised if there
>>are any wild ones in Denmark) älg are in fact somewhat smaller than the North
>>American moose, if memory serves.
>
>Yep, you're right. I would guess they are 10-15% smaller. Large enough, though.
If they're shorter, I can see that making a big difference; the main
cause of human fatalities in car-moose collisions is the moose's body
coming through the windshield feet first, because it is just the right
height relative to the hood fo the car to roll that way. Changing the
usual car height and the moose height too would hopefully make that
less likely.
--
graydon@ | Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre,
lara.on.ca | mod sceal þe mare þe ure maegen lytlað.
| -- Beorhtwold, "The Battle of Maldon"
Johan Anglemark
xnims...@aol.com:
>Johan Anglemark set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>
>>This was obsolete already then, if you recall the incident correctly. I
>>remember being told to address _elderly_ people 'ni', but never young or
>>middle-aged adults. And when I found out that even many elderly people took
>>offence at being "ni'd" (yeah, come on with yer Holy Grail jokes here), I
>>was a bit perplexed, because that wasn't at all what I had been told.
>
>There was a different reason, I think. I was taught, at an early age
>(I stopped speaking Swedish at around 5, as there was no longer anyone
>to talk to regularly) that important strangers, and elderly people in
>particular, would be highly offended by "ni," even if used properly.
>The appropriate form of address, if I didn't know a name and title for
>the person, would be "far," "farfar," "mor," or "mormor." I don't
>think a single one of these people would have left Sweden after 1930,
>or so; we're really talking about a different age and different
>customs.
It's an older custom, yes, but old customs die slowly. I have friends who
grew up in the 70s and 80s, who still address their parents "far" and
"mor", although that sounds really oldfashioned when you hear it. On the
other hand, most kids call their parents "pappa" and "mamma" ("dad" and
"mum", as opposed to the older "father" and "mother"), so this is really no
different from the US/British situation. And of course I always called my
grandparents "farfar", "farmor", "morfar" and "mormor", respectively.
Addressing parents and grandparents by given names occurs in some families,
but feels distinctly odd to most Swedes. I assume that's the same in
English, although I've never thought of it. These kinds of basics one
tends to assume are universals.
>When my father brought a friend of his mother's home for
>dinner, my brother and I were banished from the table, and were
>instructed to address her in the third person as "Fröken Gustaffson,"
>and never to use "ni" or "you," and absolutely not "Greta."
*This* has died out. This is the third-person addressing I wrote about
earlier as having been dispensed with during the 60s. It is still very
evident in old films, of course.
-J
--
Johan Anglemark johan.a...@bahnhof.se
www.bahnhof.se/~anglemar
1999 National Swedish SF con: sfweb.dang.se/1999.html
Bernard Peek
writes
>
>If they're shorter, I can see that making a big difference; the main
>cause of human fatalities in car-moose collisions is the moose's body
>coming through the windshield feet first, because it is just the right
>height relative to the hood fo the car to roll that way. Changing the
>usual car height and the moose height too would hopefully make that
>less likely.
An obvious candidate for genetic engineering then, as nobody is going to
persuade the car manufacturers to change their designs. How about
crossing the moose with a dachshund?
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Doug Wickstrom
set electrons adance worldwide by saying:
>In article <7cjrr2$ai5$1...@lara.on.ca>, Graydon <gra...@lara.on.ca>
An älg tax?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"If you're looking down and being shocked by how _small_ everyone looks,
there is a good possibility that you are sitting on far too high a horse."
--Avedon Carol
B. Vermo
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
|
|Yes, Swedish (and, presumably Norwegian & Finnish -- I'll be surprised if there
|are any wild ones in Denmark) älg are in fact somewhat smaller than the North
|American moose, if memory serves.
I do not think they actually are smaller as a species. There might be some
slight hereditary difference, but I know wildlife researchers have said that
the mooses in large parts of Sweden have been somewhat smaller than
usual the last decades. At a time, they were overhunted. As the numbers
dwindled, strict hunting quotas were imposed. That caused a rather too fast
increase in number, since nobody had taken into account that the number of
bears and wolves had also decreased to a historical low. The result was
that they did not have enough to eat, and the average weight went down.
I think the average Swedish moose today is bigger than ten years ago.
On the other hand, the average size of Norwegian mooses has decreased,
because some conservationists here wanted us to impose stricter hunting
limits, and we have even fewer wolves and bears. After some warnings
from the real wildlife biologists, I hope we have started to do it right by
now. One controversial rule is that half the moose shot must be calves.
B. Vermo
johan.a...@bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) wrote:
|
|Swedish 50 years ago used to have a very cumbersome system of titles and
|addressing. You had to say "ni" (you/vous/Sie) to some people, you were
|allowed to say "du" (thou/tu/du) to others and in some instances you had to
|use the full title ("How does the Minister like the pudding?"). The system
|left people unsure and was mainly used to mark superiority in rank, and
|moreover it was falling apart as time passed by.
|
It also caused uncountable jokes here about the brother people and their
stiffness. This was helped a lot by the excellent crop of satirists they
had in Sweden at the time. We did, after all, listen as much to Swedish
radio as to the single Norwegian offering at that time. I remember one
nice piece of satire, purporting to be from the lower city court, which
containd this take on the use of titles everywhere:
Judge: And what did the respected mr. thief do then?
My impression was that most Swedes took to using passive constructions
to be sure they did not choose the wrong from of address. When I went
shopping, for instance, I would be asked "Is that soit liked?".
Today, on the other hand, we find the Swedes unduely familiar in many
circumstances. When they took to changing things, they really did it
thoroughly. There are situations where I prefer to maintain a certain
distance. I would not like the public servant I complain to about my taxes
to use informal forms of address, for instance.
B. Vermo
|
|If they're shorter, I can see that making a big difference; the main
|cause of human fatalities in car-moose collisions is the moose's body
|coming through the windshield feet first, because it is just the right
|height relative to the hood fo the car to roll that way.
That is the normal mode here, too. The main impact is usually at the
upper end of the windshield, and the roof is often torn off the car.
A fully grown adult moose is supposed to weigh some 600kg and stand
2m tall across the shoulders. The gang of nine which were out on the
ice of the lake just down the road were mostly smaller than that, varying
from a young animal of probably no more than 250kg to a fairly big
and rather grumpy bull of nearly full size. Nobody actually measured them.
The moose is the most dangerous animal here, by a wide margin. A brown
bear is kind and benevolent in comparison.
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
keco...@garnet.tc.umn.edu (Karen E Cooper) writes:
> Two AM, and I'm listening to the BBC on the radio.
Had a similar experience the other week, though it only lasted seconds.
NPR's "Morning Edition" aired a story which began:
"A parent's first instinct is to soothe a crying child..."
When my wave of shock, at realizing how appallingly litigious Americans
had become, passed, I figured out that parents do not call their attorneys
when their babies start bawling.
--
Of course, what Shakespeare | Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey
ORIGINALLY wrote was "First thing | Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
we do, let's kill all the EDITORS."| Bitnet: Sic transit gloria mundi
But for some reason it didn't | Internet: HIG...@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
survive past the first draft. | SPAN/Hepnet: 43009::HIGGINS
-- David D. "Laserdave" Levine
(dav...@ssd.intel.com)