Do cats go to heaven?
Lydia Nickerson
There was a stray cat in the back yard. For a while we left him alone,
but then a six week old feral kitten attached herself to him. Well, a
cat and a kitten? Pamela started feeding them.
The cat got sick. And then sicker. I went out to see him, and said,
"He's dying." So, we decided to take him to the University Vetrinary
Teaching Hospital, yesterday. They took one look at him, and took him
back immediately. The Vet Assistant came out a bit later and said,
"He's a very sick kitty." Treatment could be really expensive. Maybe
$1500. Maybe more. "If you decided to have him put down, that would be
a good decision," she said. "It wouldn't be wrong." Instead, I opted to
wait until the tests were in, even though just that much would be
between $500 and $700.
The doctor called this morning with the results of the test. Just
exactly what I was most afraid of, and exactly what I thought. Feline
Leukemia. Treatment could be done, but it would be very expensive,
$2000 and up, and the prognosis was very poor. So we talked, Pamela and
I, and decided that we'd do the sensible thing. I'd promised myself I
wouldn't make that kind of a decision for a stray. It hurts so much.
But what with one thing and another, I was the one who called the vet to
tell her we would come over and have him euthanized.
I had a cat with Feline Leukemia that I had killed in that same hospital
about eight years ago. I still haven't quite come to terms with it.
Sorry, I know I'm supposed to be an adult. Wanna make something of it?
Flashbacks. Also vivid memories of the litter of kittens I lost, one by
one, fifteen years ago. I _hate_ that disease. I _hate_ it. Ignore
your vet. Get the vaccine for your indoor cats. Just do it, ok?
So, we go to the hospital. I'm about as resigned as I can be, all
things considered. He's not a cat I'd become deeply attached to, but he
had sat in my lap, he had followed after me, he had begged me to let him
in the house. He was a sweet cat. Hard to miss, maybe, but he was a
fine cat.
At the front desk, Pamela is signing the paperwork. I'm standing by. I
was just the driver. I couldn't go back and say goodbye and hold his
paw. No way. BTDT. Not for a cat I knew for 2 days.
The girl at the front desk says, "Don't worry. He'll be fine."
"No, he won't," I said. "He'll be dead."
"Yes, but then he'll be in heaven with all the other kitties and he'll
be fine." This from kid more than a decade my junior.
I turned to Pamela and said, "See, here they go again." After Ember
died, I endured what seemed like an endless stream of this crap,
including people who were angry at me and argued with me about whether
or not cats were in a "better place." Well, hell, even if I hadn't
become apostate, my church had a firm stand against animals having
souls. "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired to snap
her head off.
It's hard to think of something ruder to say, under the circumstances.
Maybe, "Good, one less cat in the world," would qualify. Such an
arrogant, thoughtless assumption about how the world works. Such casual
disregard for someone who's grieving and might not do it in the
prescribed fashion. Not merely a casual assumption about the world we
both live in, either, but an assumption that she knows the mind of God,
the Great Plan, what happens when cats die. Pamela later thanked me for
not slugging her.
Remember Morgan's story about the starfish? "It makes a difference to
this one." Well, sometimes it doesn't even make a difference to that
starfish. But I'm not convinced that you shouldn't still try.
The vet, Dr. Ross, said that this had come along at a good time for the
students. They'd just had a run or people bringing their pets in and
refusing to treat their animals. Too much trouble. She said that the
fact that someone could go to this much trouble for a stray impressed
them. So that's a good thing. But not, alas, for Mike, who's dead now.
Yesterday, he kept on trying to come in the house, firm in his
conviction that a human could fix this. Poor guy.
Epilogue: Pamela and Raphael went out to Fleet Farm and bought a live
trap. They're going to try to trap the kitten tomorrow, and take her to
the vet. Assuming she isn't deathly ill, which seems unlikely, they'll
get her shots and yadda, and then we'll see if she'll consent to live in
Rachael (Lininger's) tiny efficiency with Rachael's cat Chinook. The
kitten's about 8 weeks old at the moment, with fluff for brains. She
chases her tail and knocks herself over doing this. (Yesterday, I saw
her attack Mike's tail, knock herself over wrestling with it, and end up
gnawing on one of her hind feet in confusion. Very much fluff for
brains.) She's also young enough that she tries to attach herself to a
larger cat. She and Mike used to curl up together. Fluff-for-brains
seems to like Chinook; Rachael took Chinook out for a walk in the back
yard. Chinook is somewhat more cautious about FFB, but early signs are
good. Now if she just doesn't have FeLuk or some other deadly disease.
--
Lydia Nickerson
Duciculi Aliquorum
Randy Smith
<ly...@demesne.com> writes:
>"A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
>ourselves to tell the truth.
There are many variations on this lie.
"God needed him/her up there."
"God must have a reason for this."
"It's all part of God's plan."
"God must be testing you."
Well-meaning people say these things without realizing that they are
a) hurting the grieving person even more; b) building a wall around their
own feelings by denying the reality of death; and c) maligning God.
We tell these lies not only to children, but to other adults, and to ourselves.
Death is real. Grief is good. Using clichés to deny that experience to
another person is cruel.
[Sermon mode off.]
Pax Vobiscum.
--Randy Smith
RSmit...@aol.com or rand...@pacbell.net
--A Nebraskan Sojourning By The Bay
mike weber
typed
>No, of course they don't. What a stupid question.
>
>There was a stray cat in the back yard. For a while we left him alone,
>but then a six week old feral kitten attached herself to him. Well, a
>cat and a kitten? Pamela started feeding them.
Maybe they don't. I'm pretty sure they don't -- because i don't
believe in heaven for anyone or anything, myself included.
Dead is dead.
But there's dying and there's dying -- and while i hesitate to say
that some ways of dying are "better" than pthers, for sure some are a
whole lot worse.
I had a lovely slim black kitten -- almost certainly a Siamese cross
-- for four days in 1974; he had apparently been in the early stages
of some form of enchephalitis when i got him, though the vet who
checked him out for me didn't spot it.
On the night of the fourth day i had him, he began convulsing.
By the time we got him to the vet later that morning -- we couldn't
find a 24-hour vet we could get to -- his body was still alive. But
it was obvious that his brain was not. So the vet gave him the shot
and i turned away and stood there and cried right there in the lobby
of the vet's office and didn't give a damn who saw me.
And dead was dead and even if he was brain-dead, still, it was me who
had to make the decision to finally kill my lovely little black
kitten.
But -- for the four days between when i brought him home from the
shelter and when his seizures began -- he was loved and played with
and slept on my bed and purred himself to sleep and was right there on
my pillow purring when i woke up and was obviously a *whole* lot
happier than he would have been in a cage, and i'm glad i found him
and i'm glad i took him home, and i'm glad he had an actual *home*
with people who loved him before he died.
And, soppy as it may sound, if i'm wrong and there *is* a heaven, and
i get there, then i know that that little cat will be waiting for me,
along with the Dummie and my little black dog... because that is what
Heaven would be.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber -- kras...@mindspring.com
John Kensmark
> I had a cat with Feline Leukemia that I had killed in that same
> hospital about eight years ago. I still haven't quite come to
> terms with it. Sorry, I know I'm supposed to be an adult. Wanna
> make something of it?
I still feel--strongly--bad about the cat my parents, who were
overwhelmed by guilt themselves, put to sleep when I was a kid,
seventeen (I had to count to come up with that number) years ago.
And I'm a highly dissociative person (but in a nice way). When you
attach to an animal, it's like attaching to a child.
> Ignore your vet. Get the vaccine for your indoor cats. Just do
> it, ok?
Yeah. Definitely.
> "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
> ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired
> to snap her head off.
I really do agree with you, but at the same time I think she was
unwittingly right, in a way she didn't intend. The cat *had* gone
to a better place--not by dying, but by coming into your sphere in
the first place.
Attention, kind treatment, good intent and good attempt, comfort,
sympathy, relief, mercy . . . and being spared from what would
otherwise have been--these are *not* nothings. Are they everything
that could have been? No, but not in either direction. If you
could not be God for this cat, then you were still kinder than God,
if you will. Kinder than nature, certainly.
The most obnoxious parable I know--although I certainly forgive
people who like it--is the one where God teaches a lesson to an
angel by toying with a devout old beggar's life. God places a huge
diamond in the beggar's path, and then leads the beggar off the path
to find, instead, a good walking stick. I've always thought this
story was asinine because it actually points out the deficiencies in
many conceptions of God--throwing us crumbs instead of sandwiches
because there's a lesson to be learned.
But you and I, and Pamela and Rachael, are not gods, and if a
walking stick, metaphorically speaking, is the best we can do, then
we're still doing our best by providing it. I don't know if that's
*comforting*, but I think it's still meaningful. Not my saying it
like I was coining an aphorism, but the fact of doing what we can.
I'm sure it's meaningful to the beneficiaries of our crude
charities. Don't you think?
> Not merely a casual assumption about the world we both live in,
> either, but an assumption that she knows the mind of God, the
> Great Plan, what happens when cats die. Pamela later thanked me
> for not slugging her.
Maybe it's a rationalization that allows her to work in a difficult
environment where she can be of assistance to people who are really
helping animals who need help. Or maybe I'm trying too hard to be
optimistic.
> [The vet] said that the fact that someone could go to this much
> trouble for a stray impressed them. So that's a good thing. But
> not, alas, for Mike, who's dead now. Yesterday, he kept on
> trying to come in the house, firm in his conviction that a human
> could fix this. Poor guy.
It may not be doing Mike any good now, but it was surely a help to
him for a while, anyway. Some is better than none--maybe not a lot
better, and maybe not *enough* better--I certainly think that way a
lot myself--but it's still something better than would otherwise
be. Solace is something; it's something to care.
> Epilogue: Pamela and Raphael went out to Fleet Farm and bought
> a live trap. They're going to try to trap the kitten tomorrow,
> and take her to the vet. Assuming she isn't deathly ill, which
> seems unlikely, they'll get her shots and yadda, and then we'll
> see if she'll consent to live in Rachael (Lininger's) tiny
> efficiency with Rachael's cat Chinook.
Best luck, certainly, of course. We rescued a runt from behind a
farmhouse refrigerator last October; she hasn't gotten any brighter,
but she's considerably bigger and much happier.
John Kensmark kensmark#hotmail.com
When all candles be out, all cats be gray.
-- John Heywood
MLG
>this one." Well, sometimes it doesn't even make a difference to that
>starfish. But I'm not convinced that you shouldn't still try.
You made one hell of a difference to that cat! It died warm, loved, fed
and in some semblance of peace, as opposed to cold, hungry, lonely and
abandoned.
Also, and this is sanctimonious of me, so I try not to say it out loud,
I don't believe love and care are ever wasted. Energy can neither be
created or destroyed - only mutated. I do think love, care, prayer and
meditation make a difference in the world, however small, even when its
too small a difference to be noticed. Your caring made a difference to
the cat, and to the people around you. That prolly isn't enough
consolation to make any difference about how you feel about the cat's
death, but I hope it's some consolation, somewhere.
Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
the vet's bill.
--
Morgan
Come to the edge, he said.
They said: We are afraid.
Come to the edge, he said.
They came.
He pushed them...
... and they flew. Guillaume Apollinaire
Doug Berry
sat down on 24 Jul 2000 05:45:39 GMT to write:
>"God must be testing you."
I heard this one about a hundred times after I was diagnosed with
cancer. It got to the point where I had to work to keep from
going off on these people about what their god could do with his
sadistic "test."
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Loren MacGregor
>
> rsmit...@aol.com (Randy Smith), in a burst of mad inspiration,
> sat down on 24 Jul 2000 05:45:39 GMT to write:
>
> >"God must be testing you."
>
> I heard this one about a hundred times after I was diagnosed with
> cancer. It got to the point where I had to work to keep from
> going off on these people about what their god could do with his
> sadistic "test."
Then people reply, "Don't ask for patience, or God will send you
into circumstances where your patience will be tested."
I am a strong believer in God, and also in a God who says something
on the order of, "I started it -- it's up to you to finish it." In
other words, don't depend on God. -My- patience was tested when my
mother was being "kept alive" by what would have been very painful
IVs if she had been conscious to feel them and by other invasive
procedures that she had -specifically- requested not be done. As
the youngest son, I had no signatory powers, and one of my family
members, who did, was of the opinion, "If God had wanted Mom to die,
the ventilator wouldn't have worked."
People have many well-meaning justifications for "things happen,"
but I wish they'd stop.
-- LJM
Mary Kay Kare
rsmit...@aol.com (Randy Smith) wrote:
>
> Death is real. Grief is good. Using clichés to deny that experience to
> another person is cruel.
>
And I, for one, am getting tired of people telling me how to cope with
losing them after they're gone. Maybe, after they die, I don't *want* to
"celebrate their life". Maybe I want to mourn what I and the world have
lost. Maybe I can celebrate later. But I ought to get to do it on my
schedule.
MKK
--
"That is what is so difficult about life. There are many answers and man wants only one." MAUI THE DEMIGOD by Steven Goldsberry
Carol Flynt
> Also, and this is sanctimonious of me, so I try not to say it out loud,
> I don't believe love and care are ever wasted. Energy can neither be
> created or destroyed - only mutated. I do think love, care, prayer and
> meditation make a difference in the world, however small, even when its
> too small a difference to be noticed. Your caring made a difference to
> the cat, and to the people around you. That prolly isn't enough
> consolation to make any difference about how you feel about the cat's
> death, but I hope it's some consolation, somewhere.
>
My philosophy, exactly. Energy is energy; I try to keep as much
positive energy alive as I can.
> Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
> the vet's bill.
Me, too. I can afford the $20 to help out. Send me an address.
I don't know that you're looking for comfort; I know that nothing
was much of a comfort to me when Penny died. I'm still not
over it, as I type through prisms of tears.
I have my own reasons for believing in life after death, although
I don't think any of us, the churches included, know its exact
nature. I don't know if animals have souls or not; but I know
that my soul, assuming I have one, could not be happy without
Penny in my arms again. If there is such a thing as a heaven,
then Penny is there waiting for me.
And maybe, just maybe, animals get there because there is
a human who loved them enough to need them to be there; and
so you have done much service indeed to this poor stray you
named Mike.
If that comforts, I'm glad. If it doesn't, I completely
understand.
I think you done good.
Carol Flynt
Leigh Kimmel
ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare) writes:
> In article <20000724014539...@nso-cg.aol.com>,
> rsmit...@aol.com (Randy Smith) wrote:
>
> >
> > Death is real. Grief is good. Using clichés to deny that experience to
> > another person is cruel.
> >
> And I, for one, am getting tired of people telling me how to cope with
> losing them after they're gone. Maybe, after they die, I don't *want* to
> "celebrate their life". Maybe I want to mourn what I and the world have
> lost. Maybe I can celebrate later. But I ought to get to do it on my
> schedule.
Ditto. I get very fed up with people who are so adamant that their
agnostic/atheistic view is Truth that they stomp on people who believe
otherwise. It's just as bad as the people who impose their religious
views on unbelievers, if not worse, because it deprives people of hope.
I think it's very telling when a certain kind of unbeliever derides
religious belief, and particularly belief in an afterlife, as a
"crutch" -- they're the emotional equivalent of the person who would
come up to a person with a disability and kick their physical crutch
out from under them, then try to bully them into walking normally "if
you'll just put your mind to it."
It's especially difficult for me because of my own personal
experiences, which these militant unbelievers are in effect calling
delusional. I've had contact with the other side, and I don't like
having my talent equated with those telephone psychics with the 900
numbers who get advertised on late-night TV.
And yes, I do believe that our pets rejoin us in the afterlife. I've
seen them there.
--
One terrified boy and the girl who would save him.
"Claws of Vengeance" on sale now
http://www.alexlit.com/ Alexandria Digital Literature
Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian
leigh...@geocities.com
http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html
Ask me how to order the new Sime~Gen novel!
Check out my bookstore http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/bookstore/
Dorothy J Heydt
therefore don't go to heaven.
On the other hand,
Marie Killilea told of how, when her daughter Karen's dog died,
the child asked, "Will I have {dog's name, which escapes me} in
heaven?" And the mother answered, "If you want him in Heaven,
you'll have him." Which, she noted, was perfectly sound
theology.
C. S. Lewis went into a little more detail. I can't find the
reference at the moment, but he asked the reader to consider the
difference between the animal's life and personality as a
companion to humans, and what its life and personality would have
been like if it had been wild and had never met humans. That
difference--the qualities of a friendly and loving companion
animal, which the wild animal would never have had--*were brought
into existence by its association with humans;* part of the
animal's personality has overlapped, and been shared with, its
human. And it is precisely that part, which is also part of the
human being, that will rise from the dead and live eternally in
heaven.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Beth Friedman
Heydt) wrote:
>Officially, says Christian doctrine, animals don't have souls and
>therefore don't go to heaven.
>
>On the other hand,
>
>Marie Killilea told of how, when her daughter Karen's dog died,
>the child asked, "Will I have {dog's name, which escapes me} in
>heaven?" And the mother answered, "If you want him in Heaven,
>you'll have him." Which, she noted, was perfectly sound
>theology.
Shanty, I think. My mind is a junkyard.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Alison Hopkins
Dorothy J Heydt wrote in message ...
>Officially, says Christian doctrine, animals don't have souls and
>therefore don't go to heaven.
>
I blessed our old (Catholic) parish priest who said to me, as a small child
mourning her hamster, that no God would be so cruel as to not allow our pets
to join us. He was the same old reprobate who cheerfully said that Hell
could not possibly exist, as no loving Creator would allow it. I may not be
exactly a Catholic any more, but he was memorable.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
MLG wrote in message ...
>>this one." Well, sometimes it doesn't even make a difference to that
>>starfish. But I'm not convinced that you shouldn't still try.
>
>
>and in some semblance of peace, as opposed to cold, hungry, lonely and
>abandoned.
Hear, hear. I have to say that I found Lydia's post distressing - and that
is in no way a criticism, it was just very moving and brought back memories.
I've had to hold three much loved cats in my hands, while the vet put them
to sleep, and it still hurts. I don't regret doing it, and I don't regret
having owned and loved them, pain and all. I'd rather they'd simply died
while they slept, but life isn't always that fair.
>
>Also, and this is sanctimonious of me, so I try not to say it out loud,
>I don't believe love and care are ever wasted. Energy can neither be
>created or destroyed - only mutated. I do think love, care, prayer and
>meditation make a difference in the world, however small, even when its
>too small a difference to be noticed. Your caring made a difference to
>the cat, and to the people around you. That prolly isn't enough
>consolation to make any difference about how you feel about the cat's
>death, but I hope it's some consolation, somewhere.
Hm. Damn you, Morgan. <g> You've just said what I was labouring to get over
a whole bunch of posts back, when I used the word "saint" and talked about
the effect of doing the decent thing. And put it in to a far better nutshell
than I managed.
>
>Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
>the vet's bill.
Um, Lydia, if it isn't intrusive, I'd like to do this too. I am a strong
supporter of our local cat shelter, and this seems appropriate.
Ali
Dorothy J Heydt
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>
>>Marie Killilea told of how, when her daughter Karen's dog died,
>>the child asked, "Will I have {dog's name, which escapes me} in
>>heaven?" And the mother answered, "If you want him in Heaven,
>>you'll have him." Which, she noted, was perfectly sound
>>theology.
>
>Shanty, I think. My mind is a junkyard.
Shanty was one of her dogs, IIRC. I'm not sure if he was the one
the theological discussion came up about. She had several.
"Parrots, tortoises, and redwoods
Live a longer life than men do,
Men, a longer life than dogs do,
Dogs, a longer life than love does." ...Millay
Lucy Kemnitzer
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <4p0pns09314tlf0oa...@4ax.com>,
>Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Marie Killilea told of how, when her daughter Karen's dog died,
>>>the child asked, "Will I have {dog's name, which escapes me} in
>>>heaven?" And the mother answered, "If you want him in Heaven,
>>>you'll have him." Which, she noted, was perfectly sound
>>>theology.
>>
>>Shanty, I think. My mind is a junkyard.
>
>Shanty was one of her dogs, IIRC. I'm not sure if he was the one
>the theological discussion came up about. She had several.
>
>"Parrots, tortoises, and redwoods
>Live a longer life than men do,
>Men, a longer life than dogs do,
>Dogs, a longer life than love does." ...Millay
Is this one of those "love is but a whim of a summer's breeze"
type of poems?
Lucy Kemnitzer
Demian Phillips
>
>I turned to Pamela and said, "See, here they go again." After Ember
>died, I endured what seemed like an endless stream of this crap,
>including people who were angry at me and argued with me about whether
>or not cats were in a "better place." Well, hell, even if I hadn't
>become apostate, my church had a firm stand against animals having
>souls. "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
>ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired to snap
>her head off.
I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
--
+---------------------+-------------------------------------------+
|^_^ |Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty |
|Demian Phillips |five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I |
|PGP KEY ID 0x5BC4FCB4|finally won out over it. - Elwood P. Dowd |
Avram Grumer
dem...@cmhcsys.com wrote:
> I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but
> why does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
Isn't it a long-standing Christian belief that humans alone, apart from
all other animals, were created in the image of God? It pretty much says
so right in Genesis, so I guess it may be Jewish belief as well.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to mis-attribute this quote to Voltaire.
Lydia Nickerson
> Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I turned to Pamela and said, "See, here they go again." After Ember
> >died, I endured what seemed like an endless stream of this crap,
> >including people who were angry at me and argued with me about whether
> >or not cats were in a "better place." Well, hell, even if I hadn't
> >become apostate, my church had a firm stand against animals having
> >souls. "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
> >ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired to snap
> >her head off.
>
> I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
> does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
Because man was a special creation, uniquely given the ability to choose
right from wrong, born of the breath of God.
Pamela said that even C.S. Lewis couldn't crack that nut. He clearly
thought that animals should go to heaven, but couldn't find a way for
that to work.
David Dyer-Bennet
> Epilogue: Pamela and Raphael went out to Fleet Farm and bought a live
> trap. They're going to try to trap the kitten tomorrow, and take her to
> the vet. Assuming she isn't deathly ill, which seems unlikely, they'll
> get her shots and yadda, and then we'll see if she'll consent to live in
> Rachael (Lininger's) tiny efficiency with Rachael's cat Chinook. The
> kitten's about 8 weeks old at the moment, with fluff for brains. She
> chases her tail and knocks herself over doing this. (Yesterday, I saw
> her attack Mike's tail, knock herself over wrestling with it, and end up
> gnawing on one of her hind feet in confusion. Very much fluff for
> brains.) She's also young enough that she tries to attach herself to a
> larger cat. She and Mike used to curl up together. Fluff-for-brains
> seems to like Chinook; Rachael took Chinook out for a walk in the back
> yard. Chinook is somewhat more cautious about FFB, but early signs are
> good. Now if she just doesn't have FeLuk or some other deadly disease.
Kitten pictures at
http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
(which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
album and the kitten pictures).
She's been to the vet, the initial tests show no infection (but the
retest in 30 days is the big deal).
--
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
Bookworms: http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b
David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / dd...@dd-b.net
Dorothy J Heydt
Lucy Kemnitzer <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Parrots, tortoises, and redwoods
>>Live a longer life than men do,
>>Men, a longer life than dogs do,
>>Dogs, a longer life than love does." ...Millay
>
>Is this one of those "love is but a whim of a summer's breeze"
>type of poems?
Well, I dunno. I shouldn't quote the whole thing because I'm sure
it's still in copyright.
But the final verse goes,
What a fool I was to let you,
Pretty Love, into my household,
Center all my dreams around you,
Shape my days and nights to suit you,
Knowing well I must outlive you,
If no trap or shot-gun gets me.
This is the same lady who wrote elsewhere,
I wish, indeed, that love were longer-lived,
And vows were not so brittle as they are,
But thus it is, and nature has contrived
To struggle on without a break thus far;
Whether or not we find what we are seeking
Is idle, biologically speaking.
I should point out also that Millay wrote those before she
married and lived happily ever after till he died.
Dorothy J Heydt
Demian Phillips <dem...@cmhcsys.com> wrote:
>
>I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
>does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
Because she believes it to be the truth.
But see my other post, with C. S. Lewis's take on the question.
Which he prefaced by the way with a line on the order of "My
colleagues warned me against discussing animals going to heaven,
'because you'll get all the old maids on your neck.' Well, I
have nothing against old maids, I find neither old age nor
virginity reprehensible, and some of the wisest minds and
sunniest souls I have ever encountered have been encased in the
bodies of old maids."
VERY approximate from memory. If I could remember which of his
books it was in I'd look it up, but I don't really wanna look
through his _opera omnia_ this afternoon....
Kate Nepveu
> We tell these lies not only to children, but to other adults, and to ourselves.
> Death is real. Grief is good. Using clichés to deny that experience to
> another person is cruel.
I think this is actually one of the earliest life lessons I learned
from books--
It was _Anne of Green Gables_, I had chicken pox, and I was just
terribly struck by the description of how awful platitudes could sound
to those in grief when one of the characters died.
Ever since, I've mostly just stammered, in fear of making things
worse...
Kate
--
http://lynx.neu.edu/k/knepveu/ -- The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
"I want peace on earth and goodwill toward men."
"*We are the United States Government*. We don't _do_ that sort of
thing." --_Sneakers_
Lenny Bailes
Non cat-people may wish to skip.]
My two cents on this is that if there's anything beyond death for
human beings, I can't see a distinction that would deny it for
a cat.
I've lived with a number of cats in the past twenty-five years,
and as far as I can see, they've each had personalities
and souls, unique as those belonging to any human.
I still remember the day I picked all the fleas off the
fur of my six-week old "outlaw" kitten and it "decided"
that a human (me) might be an ally instead of a nuisance
obstruction.
Fifteen years later that cat, which had adopted me and slept
on my chest every night, crawled into a corner and became
incontinent. I spent the money for a set of diagnostic tests
that said no cat-leukemia and no kidney disease. But she stopped
eating, and couldn't walk to the water bowl. After having her
get intravenous shots at the vet, at his advice I took her home.
The diagnostic tests couldn't identify any disease. I wrapped her
in old flannel shirts, talked to her, hand-fed her, and petted her
every day for about a week -- until she stopped moving. I'm pretty sure
she appreciated my being there. And I'm pretty sure she died of
kidney disease, despite the lack of indication on the
diagnostic tests.
That cat was my best friend. Like the one in Neil Gaiman's
story, it growled and hissed at night to chase away demons.
I don't know what happens after physical death. But I do
believe that if there's any "me" left to remember anything, the
cat will be there, too, and want to sit on whatever passes for
my chest.
(Which is not to negate the shitty feeling one has after spending
hundreds or thousands of dollars at the vet and losing the cat.
I spent $1500 on LittleCat (the first cat's niece) about five years
ago when she suddenly started bleeding and they discovered a lump
in her stomach. She's sleeping on my ISDN modem, now and I
definitely don't regret the expense.)
---
Lenny Bailes | len...@slip.net | http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~lennyb
Cally Soukup
> Kitten pictures at
> http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
> (which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
> screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
> web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
> album and the kitten pictures).
> She's been to the vet, the initial tests show no infection (but the
> retest in 30 days is the big deal).
Oh, what a sweetie. I hope Chinook likes her.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Elisabeth Carey
> >died, I endured what seemed like an endless stream of this crap,
> >including people who were angry at me and argued with me about whether
> >or not cats were in a "better place." Well, hell, even if I hadn't
> >become apostate, my church had a firm stand against animals having
> >souls. "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
> >ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired to snap
> >her head off.
>
> does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
What I was taught was that animals don't have _immortal_ souls,
immortal souls being one of the features of being made "in the image
and likeness of God".
OTOH, as others have mentioned, the priests I knew were all inclined
to think that a much-loved pet _would_ be with its human in heaven,
because heaven is a place of perfect happiness (meaning you can't be
without that which is necessary to that state) and moral perfection
(meaning you could not simply forget any being, human or not, that you
deeply loved in life.
--
Lis Carey
This post is copyright 2000 by Lis Carey; I disclaim
any responsibility for ad links within it.
Randy Smith
>I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
>does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
"The Church" in this case is the Roman Catholic Church. Different
branches of Christianity have different views. The precise definition
of the word "soul" may also be a factor in some of the differing views.
MLG
Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> writes
>> another person is cruel.
>>
>losing them after they're gone. Maybe, after they die, I don't *want* to
>"celebrate their life". Maybe I want to mourn what I and the world have
>lost. Maybe I can celebrate later. But I ought to get to do it on my
>schedule.
>
>
Hear hear. Funerals are for the living, not the dead.
Pamela Dyer-Bennet
> In article <2agpnsgoqr3prj90o...@4ax.com>,
> >
> >I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
> >does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
>
>
> But see my other post, with C. S. Lewis's take on the question.
[snip preface to Lewis's remarks]
> VERY approximate from memory. If I could remember which of his
> books it was in I'd look it up, but I don't really wanna look
> through his _opera omnia_ this afternoon....
The discussion I am familiar with is in THE PROBLEM OF PAIN.
I am pretty sure he also wrote a separate essay on it, and I don't
recall which contains the nice remarks on old maids.
mike weber
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> typed
>
>MLG wrote in message ...
>>Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
>>the vet's bill.
>
>Um, Lydia, if it isn't intrusive, I'd like to do this too. I am a strong
>supporter of our local cat shelter, and this seems appropriate.
>
Ditto -- i can't go twenty, but i can do five or so...
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber -- kras...@mindspring.com
Loren MacGregor
>
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:40:07 +0100, "Alison Hopkins"
> <fn...@dial.pipex.com> typed
>
> >
> >MLG wrote in message ...
>
> >>Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
> >>the vet's bill.
> >
> >Um, Lydia, if it isn't intrusive, I'd like to do this too. I am a strong
> >supporter of our local cat shelter, and this seems appropriate.
> >
> Ditto -- i can't go twenty, but i can do five or so...
If there's a list, put me on it. We're doing a -little- better this
year, and can squeeze out a bit for worthy causes.
> =============================================================
> "They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
> -- Cat Ballou
Which reminds me -- with Nat King Cole and Stubby Kaye, I think "Cat
Ballou" counts as at least one of my favorite musical theater
pieces.
-- LJM
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Kitten pictures at
>http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
>(which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
>screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
>web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
>album and the kitten pictures).
Obviously a magic kitty, since she changed from purple to chestnut
when trapped!
--
Marilee J. Layman The Other*Worlds*Cafe
HOSTE...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group.
AOL Keyword: OWC http://www.webmoose.com/owc
Lucy Kemnitzer
<lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>OTOH, as others have mentioned, the priests I knew were all inclined
>to think that a much-loved pet _would_ be with its human in heaven,
>because heaven is a place of perfect happiness (meaning you can't be
>without that which is necessary to that state) and moral perfection
>(meaning you could not simply forget any being, human or not, that you
>deeply loved in life.
>
Do you recall how this was resolved with respect to people who
were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
weren't?
Lucy Kemnitzer
Elisabeth Carey
Mainly with the sense that, while human beings are imperfect and many
are likely to spend some time in purgatory, actually being damned
involves a complete separation from God that few people are capable
of. One story, parable really, that was offered as illustration is
that of the physician who gave much of his time and professional
skills to the poor, and who hated God because of all the suffering he
saw that he couldn't even begin to relieve. When he died and was
facing the final judgment, God asked if there was anybody to speak in
support of this man who hated God--and there were thousands, all the
people he'd tried to help. And so he was admitted to heaven.
The real test of moral character is how you treat other people, not
your relationship with the church or the details of your beliefs.
Someone who has had such a strong positive effect on someone else's
life as to be essential to their happiness is not very likely to be so
evil as to be damned.
(All of the above being What I Was Taught and IMHO, of course.)
Rachael Lininger
Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>On 24 Jul 2000 18:43:34 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@gw.dd-b.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Kitten pictures at
>>http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
>>(which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
>>screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
>>web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
>>album and the kitten pictures).
>
>Obviously a magic kitty, since she changed from purple to chestnut
>when trapped!
If you calibrated your monitor, she wouldn't have this problem. <smirk>
:)
Rachael
--
Rachael Lininger | "Victrola homes are happiest."
rac...@dd-b.net | --Atlantic Monthly, 1922
Rachael Lininger
Cally Soukup <sou...@pobox.com> wrote:
>David Dyer-Bennet <d...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote in article <m2em4jj...@gw.dd-b.net>:
>
>> http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
>> (which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
>> screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
>> web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
>> album and the kitten pictures).
>
>> retest in 30 days is the big deal).
>
>Oh, what a sweetie. I hope Chinook likes her.
They're both remarkably insoucient, so I think it will be ok. Chinook is
back in Durance Vile while we wait out the quarantine period for
respiratory infections and worms.
I fed her dinner last night by hand, which worked pretty well. As long as
I don't try to pet her, she'll come very close. She is not the most feral
of feral kittens I've ever seen. I think she's decided that I'm an
oversized replacement for Orange Mike.
Shortly after I went to bed, she came out from underneath and jumped on
top. Then she began a leisurely tour of the bumps under the covers, namely
me, and the windowsill, and the pillows. After that, she tried to find a
position she liked: on top of my legs, beside my legs, beside my elbow, on
my diaphragm, in the windowsill, etc. I fell asleep, and don't remember
what she decided on. When I woke up again, she was in the windowsill.
Right now there's a thunderstorm, and she's scared. She's making the most
pitiful peeping noises, but she's running around the apartment in between
fits of scaredness. I think that what she really wants is for her Big
Mammal to crawl under the bed with her. As a substantial portion of my
library is also under there, I don't think this is likely.
I go from one kitty who wakes me up at 4 to another. Oh, well.
Erik V. Olson
>mike weber wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:40:07 +0100, "Alison Hopkins"
>> <fn...@dial.pipex.com> typed
>>
>> >
>> >MLG wrote in message ...
>>
>> >>Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
>> >>the vet's bill.
>> >
>> >Um, Lydia, if it isn't intrusive, I'd like to do this too. I am a strong
>> >supporter of our local cat shelter, and this seems appropriate.
>> >
>> Ditto -- i can't go twenty, but i can do five or so...
>
>If there's a list, put me on it. We're doing a -little- better this
>year, and can squeeze out a bit for worthy causes.
Count me in.
--
Erik V. Olson: er...@mo.net : http://walden.mo.net/~eriko/
Nancy Lebovitz
animals *only* having individual personalities as the result of associating
with humans.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
The calligraphic button website is up!
Buttons at Pennsic: S&M Leather (Booth 119), Plunder Lane
Demian Phillips
>In article <2agpnsgoqr3prj90o...@4ax.com>,
>dem...@cmhcsys.com wrote:
>
>> Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I turned to Pamela and said, "See, here they go again." After Ember
>> >died, I endured what seemed like an endless stream of this crap,
>> >including people who were angry at me and argued with me about whether
>> >or not cats were in a "better place." Well, hell, even if I hadn't
>> >become apostate, my church had a firm stand against animals having
>> >souls. "A better place" is the lie we tell children if we can't bring
>> >ourselves to tell the truth. I was furious, but just too tired to snap
>> >her head off.
>>
>> I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
>> does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
>
>Because man was a special creation, uniquely given the ability to choose
>right from wrong, born of the breath of God.
>
>Pamela said that even C.S. Lewis couldn't crack that nut. He clearly
>thought that animals should go to heaven, but couldn't find a way for
>that to work.
Seems rather mean tho the way we become attached to our companions.
I think will stick with hinduism and every living thing having one
(only this sometimes sends me down the road of feeling bad about all
the other life I survive off of).
Demian Phillips
>In article <2agpnsgoqr3prj90o...@4ax.com>,
>Demian Phillips <dem...@cmhcsys.com> wrote:
>>
>>I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
>>does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
>
>Because she believes it to be the truth.
I understand how she feels. She made it quite clear. I was more so
asking about the churches reasoning.
I must apologize if I am ignorant of a majority of christian belief as
I was raised in hinduism(kinda).
>But see my other post, with C. S. Lewis's take on the question.
Those posts came through today when I retrieved headers after I posted
yesterday.
Demian Phillips
>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:58:08 GMT, Elisabeth Carey
><lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
>>OTOH, as others have mentioned, the priests I knew were all inclined
>>to think that a much-loved pet _would_ be with its human in heaven,
>>because heaven is a place of perfect happiness (meaning you can't be
>>without that which is necessary to that state) and moral perfection
>>(meaning you could not simply forget any being, human or not, that you
>>deeply loved in life.
>>
>
>Do you recall how this was resolved with respect to people who
>were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
>weren't?
>
>Lucy Kemnitzer
Wasn't this addressed in RAH JOB?
I have to say that the accounts I have heard here fill me with
emotion. I have been spared the direct loss of feline companion by
circumstance, but I always treasured my time with them.
To an extent some of this discussion reminds me of when I played
around with a game called afterlife where you run heaven and hell.
(you also get to tweak the world below)
Demian Phillips
>In article <2agpnsgoqr3prj90o...@4ax.com>,
>dem...@cmhcsys.com wrote:
>
>> I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but
>> why does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
>
>Isn't it a long-standing Christian belief that humans alone, apart from
>all other animals, were created in the image of God? It pretty much says
>so right in Genesis, so I guess it may be Jewish belief as well.
IMO at this point God had a bad mirror ;) (best I can muster for
joviality in this thread)
Demian Phillips
>In article <2agpnsgoqr3prj90o...@4ax.com>, Demian Phillips
><dem...@cmhcsys.com> writes:
>
>>I do not wish to make a situation more painful or anything but why
>>does the church tell people that animals have no souls?
>
>"The Church" in this case is the Roman Catholic Church. Different
>branches of Christianity have different views. The precise definition
>of the word "soul" may also be a factor in some of the differing views.
>
Ahhh.
Can someone clue me in of a few of them?
Pamela Dyer-Bennet
> In article <1104_964499513@pamela>,
> Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> wrote:
> >On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:57:04 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >> VERY approximate from memory. If I could remember which of his
> >> books it was in I'd look it up, but I don't really wanna look
> >> through his _opera omnia_ this afternoon....
> >
> >The discussion I am familiar with is in THE PROBLEM OF PAIN.
> >I am pretty sure he also wrote a separate essay on it, and I don't
> >recall which contains the nice remarks on old maids.
> >
> If I recall the passage correctly, there's some irritating stuff about
> animals *only* having individual personalities as the result of associating
> with humans.
Yep, that's the one. I find that unworkable. I couldn't get as irritated
as I might have because he was trying so hard, but his understanding
of how the universe operates and his basic intellectual honesty wouldn't
let him get where he wanted to go.
If there aren't wild animals in heaven I ain't going.
Not that anybody has invited me.
Lucy Kemnitzer
<lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:58:08 GMT, Elisabeth Carey
>> <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>
>> >OTOH, as others have mentioned, the priests I knew were all inclined
>> >to think that a much-loved pet _would_ be with its human in heaven,
>> >because heaven is a place of perfect happiness (meaning you can't be
>> >without that which is necessary to that state) and moral perfection
>> >(meaning you could not simply forget any being, human or not, that you
>> >deeply loved in life.
>> >
>>
>> Do you recall how this was resolved with respect to people who
>> were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
>> weren't?
>
>Mainly with the sense that, while human beings are imperfect and many
>are likely to spend some time in purgatory, actually being damned
>involves a complete separation from God that few people are capable
>of. One story, parable really, that was offered as illustration is
>that of the physician who gave much of his time and professional
>skills to the poor, and who hated God because of all the suffering he
>saw that he couldn't even begin to relieve. When he died and was
>facing the final judgment, God asked if there was anybody to speak in
>support of this man who hated God--and there were thousands, all the
>people he'd tried to help. And so he was admitted to heaven.
>
>The real test of moral character is how you treat other people, not
>your relationship with the church or the details of your beliefs.
>Someone who has had such a strong positive effect on someone else's
>life as to be essential to their happiness is not very likely to be so
>evil as to be damned.
>
>(All of the above being What I Was Taught and IMHO, of course.)
>
Do you think this interpretation is pretty solid across the board,
or that it varies a lot from teacher to teacher within the Church?
I don't know how to qualify the question -- I think I'm trying to
align this, and other things like it I've heard, with a wholly
different view of Catholicism I get from some people who write
memoirs and stuff.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Pamela Dyer-Bennet
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:54:50 GMT,
> Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> scripsit:
> >If there aren't wild animals in heaven I ain't going.
>
>
> "God calls those _grasps_."
>
> 'Are they dangerous?'
>
> "Not really; they only eat marble statues, not actual people. And
> their table manners are impeccable."
>
> 'And those much larger things beyond them?'
>
> "That's a stretch of reaches; those are dangerous."
Rasseff Award with a little wreath of Spanish cloisters, untamed seahorses,
and the complete works of Andrea del Sarto in miniature.
(I laughed with complicated delight every time I read your message.)
Kip Williams
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:50:44 GMT,
> Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> scripsit:
> >On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:27:28 GMT, anga...@sympatico.ca (Graydon) wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:54:50 GMT,
> >> Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> scripsit:
> >> >If there aren't wild animals in heaven I ain't going.
> >>
> >> 'Gracious, what's that?'
> >>
> >> "God calls those _grasps_."
> >>
> >> 'Are they dangerous?'
> >>
> >> "Not really; they only eat marble statues, not actual people. And
> >> their table manners are impeccable."
> >>
> >> 'And those much larger things beyond them?'
> >>
> >> "That's a stretch of reaches; those are dangerous."
> >
> >Rasseff Award with a little wreath of Spanish cloisters, untamed seahorses,
> >and the complete works of Andrea del Sarto in miniature.
>
>
> >(I laughed with complicated delight every time I read your message.)
>
... wait a minute, what was Heaven for again?
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Del Cotter
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:
>> Do you recall how this was resolved with respect to people who
>> were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
>> weren't?
>
>Mainly with the sense that, while human beings are imperfect and many
>are likely to spend some time in purgatory, actually being damned
>involves a complete separation from God that few people are capable
>of. One story, parable really, that was offered as illustration is
>that of the physician who gave much of his time and professional
>skills to the poor, and who hated God because of all the suffering he
>saw that he couldn't even begin to relieve. When he died and was
>facing the final judgment, God asked if there was anybody to speak in
>support of this man who hated God--and there were thousands, all the
>people he'd tried to help. And so he was admitted to heaven.
Theologically speaking, wouldn't it be: "And so he spent the next n
years in purgatory, then was eventually admitted to heaven"? Not so
catchy, I realize.
--
. . . . Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk . . . .
JustRead:edDays:ColinGreenlandTakeBackPlenty:JonathanRabanBadLand:EricIdleTh
eRoadToMars:JohnBarnesApocalypses&Apostrophes:MichaelConeyHelloSummerGoodbye
ToRead:WalterMMillerJrStLeibowitz&TWHW:SMStirlingAgainstTheTideOfYears:....
Harry Payne
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>I blessed our old (Catholic) parish priest who said to me, as a small child
>mourning her hamster, that no God would be so cruel as to not allow our pets
>to join us. He was the same old reprobate who cheerfully said that Hell
>could not possibly exist, as no loving Creator would allow it. I may not be
>exactly a Catholic any more, but he was memorable.
I believe it was a Jesuit who remarked that as a good Catholic he had to
believe in Hell because doctrine demanded it, but as he also believed in
God's goodness, it must therefore be empty.
--
Harry
Elisabeth Carey
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
> Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:
> >> Do you recall how this was resolved with respect to people who
> >> were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
> >> weren't?
> >
> >Mainly with the sense that, while human beings are imperfect and many
> >are likely to spend some time in purgatory, actually being damned
> >involves a complete separation from God that few people are capable
> >of. One story, parable really, that was offered as illustration is
> >that of the physician who gave much of his time and professional
> >skills to the poor, and who hated God because of all the suffering he
> >saw that he couldn't even begin to relieve. When he died and was
> >facing the final judgment, God asked if there was anybody to speak in
> >support of this man who hated God--and there were thousands, all the
> >people he'd tried to help. And so he was admitted to heaven.
>
> Theologically speaking, wouldn't it be: "And so he spent the next n
> years in purgatory, then was eventually admitted to heaven"? Not so
> catchy, I realize.
Very likely, but it was a parable, and his spending time in purgatory
wasn't the point; his going to heaven was.
Or perhaps not. His hatred of God, after all, was strongly rooted in
the most virtuous possible ground: his love of his fellow human
beings, and his desire to alleviate their suffering.
Elisabeth Carey
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:35:14 GMT, Elisabeth Carey
> >> <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >OTOH, as others have mentioned, the priests I knew were all inclined
> >> >to think that a much-loved pet _would_ be with its human in heaven,
> >> >because heaven is a place of perfect happiness (meaning you can't be
> >> >without that which is necessary to that state) and moral perfection
> >> >(meaning you could not simply forget any being, human or not, that you
> >> >deeply loved in life.
> >> >
> >>
> >> were eligible for heaven who were deeply attached to people who
> >> weren't?
> >
> >Mainly with the sense that, while human beings are imperfect and many
> >are likely to spend some time in purgatory, actually being damned
> >involves a complete separation from God that few people are capable
> >of. One story, parable really, that was offered as illustration is
> >that of the physician who gave much of his time and professional
> >skills to the poor, and who hated God because of all the suffering he
> >saw that he couldn't even begin to relieve. When he died and was
> >facing the final judgment, God asked if there was anybody to speak in
> >support of this man who hated God--and there were thousands, all the
> >people he'd tried to help. And so he was admitted to heaven.
> >
> >your relationship with the church or the details of your beliefs.
> >Someone who has had such a strong positive effect on someone else's
> >life as to be essential to their happiness is not very likely to be so
> >evil as to be damned.
> >
> >(All of the above being What I Was Taught and IMHO, of course.)
> >
>
> Do you think this interpretation is pretty solid across the board,
> or that it varies a lot from teacher to teacher within the Church?
> I don't know how to qualify the question -- I think I'm trying to
> align this, and other things like it I've heard, with a wholly
> different view of Catholicism I get from some people who write
> memoirs and stuff.
I think opinions of the likelihood of large numbers of people being
damned vary wildly, while the belief that the likelihood of someone
sufficiently evil as to be damned to hell proving to actually be
essential to the happiness of a person who is sufficiently good as to
be saved is at least very low is rather more widely shared.
I'm not even going to attempt to express an opinion on the theological
soundness of memoirs I haven't read. (You haven't even said whether
these memoirs were by current Catholics or ex-Catholics.)
Lucy Kemnitzer
<lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
All very vaguely remembered, and some of each: but they're these
vignettes of very fierce language on the subject by elementary
teachers in Catholic school and like that, and since they were
embedded in stuff I mostly didn't understand, I've never known
where to place the picture in the bigger picture.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Nancy Lebovitz
Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> wrote:
>> >
>> If I recall the passage correctly, there's some irritating stuff about
>> animals *only* having individual personalities as the result of associating
>> with humans.
>
>Yep, that's the one. I find that unworkable. I couldn't get as irritated
>as I might have because he was trying so hard, but his understanding
>of how the universe operates and his basic intellectual honesty wouldn't
>let him get where he wanted to go.
>
>
The reason I was annoyed with that passage was that I'd read enough
nature writing to make it seem obvious that wild animals have definite
individual personalities.
Nancy Lebovitz
Graydon <anga...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:54:50 GMT,
>Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> scripsit:
>
>
>"God calls those _grasps_."
>
>'Are they dangerous?'
>
>"Not really; they only eat marble statues, not actual people. And
>their table manners are impeccable."
>
>'And those much larger things beyond them?'
>
>"That's a stretch of reaches; those are dangerous."
>
the marble statues about?
Elisabeth Carey
>
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:24:38 GMT, Elisabeth Carey
> <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
<snip>
> >I think opinions of the likelihood of large numbers of people being
> >damned vary wildly, while the belief that the likelihood of someone
> >sufficiently evil as to be damned to hell proving to actually be
> >essential to the happiness of a person who is sufficiently good as to
> >be saved is at least very low is rather more widely shared.
> >
> >I'm not even going to attempt to express an opinion on the theological
> >soundness of memoirs I haven't read. (You haven't even said whether
> >these memoirs were by current Catholics or ex-Catholics.)
> >
>
> All very vaguely remembered, and some of each: but they're these
> vignettes of very fierce language on the subject by elementary
> teachers in Catholic school and like that, and since they were
> embedded in stuff I mostly didn't understand, I've never known
> where to place the picture in the bigger picture.
Catholic elementary schools tend to be very strong on discipline, and
very strong on the importance of being a good Catholic--but actual
theological rigor can vary wildly. Especially when too few teachers
are coping with too many children, which tended to be the case in the
fifties and sixties (at one point, I was in a seventh grade class that
had forty-two students--and the other seventh grade class had
forty-three), the need for discipline in order to be able to teach
anything can start to subtly corrupt the theology that gets taught.
The counter-intuitive result of this is that Catholic schools during
that era were strong on academics and on discipline, but not always
reliable on theology. After sending me to Catholic school for two
years, quite successfully in terms of the problem that had cause him
to try it (disenchantment with school due to classes that had become
boring and unchallenging), my father pulled me out because I'd become
interested again _and_ learned the skills and discipline necessary to
follow an independent study plan as a supplement to what the public
school was doing, and the religious education available in Sunday
school was better than what the Catholic schools were doing. (And,
happy development, after a year in the wilderness of junior high, I
went to the public high school and found teachers of the same high
quality and same willingness to give extra assignments and different
assignments to the kids that needed them that had made grades two,
three, and four, and then seven and eight, so satisfying.)
Hmm. Did I sort-of address what you said?
Lucy Kemnitzer
<lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>Hmm. Did I sort-of address what you said?
>
Actually, you answered the questions I would have asked if I had
known to ask them, which is better. Thanks.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Pamela Dyer-Bennet
> In article <1103_964547690@pamela>,
> Pamela Dyer-Bennet <pd...@demesne.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> If I recall the passage correctly, there's some irritating stuff about
> >> animals *only* having individual personalities as the result of associating
> >> with humans.
> >
> >Yep, that's the one. I find that unworkable. I couldn't get as irritated
> >as I might have because he was trying so hard, but his understanding
> >of how the universe operates and his basic intellectual honesty wouldn't
> >let him get where he wanted to go.
> >
> nature writing to make it seem obvious that wild animals have definite
> individual personalities.
Yes, that did get up my nose; just not as much as it would have had
somebody else written it somewhat differently.
I don't like the whole "man is the crown of creation" bit, at all.
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> Catholic elementary schools tend to be very strong on discipline, and
> very strong on the importance of being a good Catholic--but actual
> theological rigor can vary wildly. Especially when too few teachers
> are coping with too many children, which tended to be the case in the
> fifties and sixties (at one point, I was in a seventh grade class that
> had forty-two students--and the other seventh grade class had
> forty-three), the need for discipline in order to be able to teach
> anything can start to subtly corrupt the theology that gets taught.
Are 42 and 43 intended to impress the reader as excessive numbers? I can
one-up this, as I attended several Catholic grade schools in the 1960s where
classes were larger-- 48 to 52. Baby Boom, don'tcha know.
I grew up thinking this was normal, of course, and was surprised to learn
later that teachers considered classes of this size appalling. Which only
reinforces Lis's point. I suppose I probably picked up some corrupt
theology as well...
--
Bill Higgins | Right now America is probably less literate
Fermilab | than ever before in its history
Internet: | but more literate than it will ever be again.
hig...@fnal.fnal.gov | --Richard Mitchell, February 1978
Avram Grumer
> I don't like the whole "man is the crown of creation" bit, at all.
Neither do I.
Man is the shoulders of creation. The neck won't even show up for another
couple centuries, much less the crown.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to mis-attribute this quote to Voltaire.
Avram Grumer
anga...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> Sound ecology; heaven has _got_ to produce an excess of marble
> statuary. It's like the obvious need for glass-eating birds, once our
> biotech gets good enough. (Probably mixed solar and parasitically
> powered, tucked up at night tapping into the street lights, birds.)
Then the intestinal parasites make the jump to spiders, and eventually you
get glass-fiber webs.
Rob Hansen
>I don't like the whole "man is the crown of creation" bit, at all.
>
Hey, we're an astonishingly arrogant species. Unable to accept the
fact that it was as much random chance as anything else that's left us
as the current dominant species on this mudball, we anthropomorphize
the entire universe by coming up with a supreme being in who image we
ourselves were created, and top it off by claiming we're so special
that out of all Earth's thousands of species we're the only ones to
have something called a soul which survives after death and ascends to
a very human-centric paradise. Yeah, right. And, amazingly, millions
of people apparently believe this nonsense while showing no obvious
signs of being under the influence of powerful, mind-altering drugs.
It's a wonderful, fascinating, and often deeply disturbing world.
--
Rob Hansen
=============================================
Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
P Nielsen Hayden
Avram Grumer <av...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn8ntnaj....@localhost.localdomain>,
>anga...@sympatico.ca wrote:
>
>> Sound ecology; heaven has _got_ to produce an excess of marble
>> statuary. It's like the obvious need for glass-eating birds, once our
>> biotech gets good enough. (Probably mixed solar and parasitically
>> powered, tucked up at night tapping into the street lights, birds.)
>
>Then the intestinal parasites make the jump to spiders, and eventually you
>get glass-fiber webs.
Being webs, they are no doubt powered by Perl scripts.
Discussions of these are referred to as "glasperlenspiel."
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
John Kensmark
> Someone has been trying to teach bacteria to grow spider silk
> proteins in vats; it's apparently possible that there will be
> effectively indestructiveble stretch silk fabric with the colour
> part of the fiber available in the next ten years or so.
This is an interesting (but certainly comprehensible) colloquial use
of the word "teach". Makes me wonder if students will be taught
using this method, some day.
I do believe that farmed spider silk that doesn't come from spiders
will be a commercial reality at some point, but I've been hearing
that it's likely "within ten years" since the mid-80's. Last I
heard, maybe six months ago, the folks in the lead weren't using
bacteria but had injected the appropriate genes into goats. The
silk proteins show up in the goat's milk, from whence they can be
spun using a centrifuge.
The next step, apparently, is cloning the goats in large numbers, as
this is apparently easier than splicing the spider genes in.
John Kensmark kensmark#hotmail.com
There's so much comedy on television.
Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett, mocking the TV-violence debate
Thomas Yan
av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> In article <1103_964633375@pamela>, pd...@demesne.com (Pamela Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>
> > I don't like the whole "man is the crown of creation" bit, at all.
>
> Neither do I.
>
> Man is the shoulders of creation. The neck won't even show up for another
> couple centuries, much less the crown.
Tangent: apparently in psychology or statistics, ideological battles get rather
fierce. Hence, one observed
In physics, they stand on the shoulders of giants;
in psychology (stats?), we stand on their faces.
(Dang lousy memory!. I keep forgetting the field and author. Next
time I find out, I'm going to carefully record it.)
--
Thomas Yan (ty...@cs.cornell.edu) I don't speak for Cornell University
Computer Science Department \\ Cornell University \\ Ithaca, NY 14853
(please pardon any lack of capitalization; my hands hurt from typing)
Pamela Dyer-Bennet
> In article <1103_964633375@pamela>, pd...@demesne.com (Pamela Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>
> > I don't like the whole "man is the crown of creation" bit, at all.
>
> Neither do I.
>
> Man is the shoulders of creation. The neck won't even show up for another
> couple centuries, much less the crown.
This made me giggle quite a lot, but my main remark is as follows:
CATS! I can't think of anything else that would get me into the middle
of a theological discussion. Little monsters.
Lydia Nickerson
<mor...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <lydy-82722F.2...@news.uswest.net>, Lydia Nickerson
> <ly...@demesne.com> writes
> >Remember Morgan's story about the starfish? "It makes a difference to
> >this one." Well, sometimes it doesn't even make a difference to that
> >starfish. But I'm not convinced that you shouldn't still try.
>
>
> You made one hell of a difference to that cat! It died warm, loved, fed
> and in some semblance of peace, as opposed to cold, hungry, lonely and
> abandoned.
>
> Also, and this is sanctimonious of me, so I try not to say it out loud,
> I don't believe love and care are ever wasted. Energy can neither be
> created or destroyed - only mutated. I do think love, care, prayer and
> meditation make a difference in the world, however small, even when its
> too small a difference to be noticed. Your caring made a difference to
> the cat, and to the people around you. That prolly isn't enough
> consolation to make any difference about how you feel about the cat's
> death, but I hope it's some consolation, somewhere.
>
> Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
> the vet's bill.
Now you've gone and made me cry.
I'm stunned at the generousity of offering to help defray the vet costs
of a _dead_ cat. You and the other rassefarians stunned me beyond
reason. Thanks. It helps a lot, you know?
I also got a thank you note from the vet, Dr. Ross. She said what you
did, Morgan, that it made a big difference. I didn't go and see him,
but Pamela said that he looked a lot better because of the hydration and
being cleaned up. And Dr. Ross cried, too, when she put him down.
As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
inadequate reasons.
--
Lydia Nickerson
Dulciculi Aliquorum
Lydia Nickerson
> Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
> the vet's bill.
Like I said on rasff, this is such a generous offer I'm stunned. Thank
you. The money will help a lot. I'm not working at the moment, and DDB
hasn't been paid lately. Things are tight. Here's my address:
Lydia Nickerson
3721 Blaisdell Avenue S.
Minneapolis, MN 55409
USA
I can't say thanks enough. It's silly to miss a cat I barely knew, but
you know, I do.
Nancy Lebovitz
Graydon <anga...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On 26 Jul 2000 05:28:51 GMT,
>Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> scripsit:
>>>
>>I understood and enjoyed the reach/grasp reference, but what are
>>the marble statues about?
>
>statuary. It's like the obvious need for glass-eating birds, once our
>biotech gets good enough. (Probably mixed solar and parasitically
>powered, tucked up at night tapping into the street lights, birds.)
>
unless you're visualizing it as looking rather like a graveyard. Imho,
the only marble statues in heaven will be those that people carve
for pleasure, and there will presumably be a greater excess of
sweaters.
Unfortunately, this has caused me to wonder whether there will
be bad art in Heaven. I can see strong arguments for either
possibility.
Lydia Nickerson
<kens...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Lydia Nickerson wrote:
>
>
> > Not merely a casual assumption about the world we both live in,
> > either, but an assumption that she knows the mind of God, the
> > Great Plan, what happens when cats die. Pamela later thanked me
> > for not slugging her.
>
> Maybe it's a rationalization that allows her to work in a difficult
> environment where she can be of assistance to people who are really
> helping animals who need help. Or maybe I'm trying too hard to be
> optimistic.
I'm afraid I don't feel too much sympathy for her. Her rationalizations
are not my problem. I think she was just not paying attention. What
person says "He'll be fine" about a cat about to be put to death if
they're actually paying attention? Maybe she was trying to cover for
having been stupid. But I still don't feel much sympathy.
> Best luck, certainly, of course. We rescued a runt from behind a
> farmhouse refrigerator last October; she hasn't gotten any brighter,
> but she's considerably bigger and much happier.
I had/have a stray who is dumber than a rock. He once got lost in the
bathtub. I love him, though he lives with a friend now, it being a
better solution for all involved. He's become quite sweet, rather than
the vicious little monster he was, but he's still the dimmest porch
light on the block
Lydia Nickerson
kate....@yale.edu wrote:
> rsmit...@aol.com (Randy Smith) wrote:
>
> > We tell these lies not only to children, but to other adults, and to
> > ourselves.
>
> > Death is real. Grief is good. Using clichés to deny that experience
> > to
> > another person is cruel.
>
> I think this is actually one of the earliest life lessons I learned
> from books--
>
> It was _Anne of Green Gables_, I had chicken pox, and I was just
> terribly struck by the description of how awful platitudes could sound
> to those in grief when one of the characters died.
>
> Ever since, I've mostly just stammered, in fear of making things
> worse...
Miss Manners says that this is why there are formal things to say at
such times. The mourner doesn't want you to be creative, they just want
to know that you care. And so you say things like, "I'm very sorry for
your loss," and "Can I help?" In the latter case, it's ideal to offer a
specific type of help, so that the mourner doesn't have to think very
much to respond to the question. And then, you're supposed to be quiet
and _listen_. That's the one that a lot of people forget.
I'm not good at it, either. But ever since I read that, I've felt a lot
more comfortable. And it seems to be about the best that can be done.
David Goldfarb
Harry Payne <Ha...@menageri.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I believe it was a Jesuit who remarked that as a good Catholic he had to
>believe in Hell because doctrine demanded it, but as he also believed in
>God's goodness, it must therefore be empty.
I've seen this attributed to Teilhard de Chardin.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "The large print giveth, and the fine print
aste...@slip.net | taketh away."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
Dorothy J Heydt
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <1J1yfsAw...@menageri.demon.co.uk>,
>Harry Payne <Ha...@menageri.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I believe it was a Jesuit who remarked that as a good Catholic he had to
>>believe in Hell because doctrine demanded it, but as he also believed in
>>God's goodness, it must therefore be empty.
>
>I've seen this attributed to Teilhard de Chardin.
It's been attributed to a lot of people, and I think the guy who
first said it was, like, fifth or sixth century of the Christian
era. But I don't remember his name.
[Just as the first person I've been able to find out about who
said "If I see further than others, it is because I am a dwarf
standing on the shoulders of giants" was not Isaac Newton but St.
Bernard.]
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Loren Joseph MacGregor
>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>inadequate reasons.
I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
upholstery.
-- LJM
mike weber
typed
What do they do when their kids don't match the wallpaper?
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber -- kras...@mindspring.com
Alison Hopkins
Loren Joseph MacGregor wrote in message <8lpnv5$ivb$5...@news.efn.org>...
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
>>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>>inadequate reasons.
>
>I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>upholstery.
>
This actually makes me want to cause phsysical harm to the .... ach, I don't
have a word for them. Or the people who dumped my Bear. Actually, I do for
them, and it's bloody fools. He's a loving, gentle, funny, joyous delight of
a cat, and he owns *us* not those idiots.
Ali
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
>
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
> >As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
> >much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
> >they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
> >inadequate reasons.
>
> I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
> time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
> because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
> upholstery.
>
Now that's obscene.
We're doing kitty hospice right now. Skit, Lyn's 17 year old cat, is
mostly disabled right now, and has been diagnosed with a tumor on her
spine. There's some hope that Prednisone will shrink the tumor enough
for her to regain use of her legs for a while, but it's not looking
good after three days. She's eating, but not drinking, so we're doing
subcutaneous fluid.
We'd been told she was in good health, just arthritic, and were
hoping that acupuncture or chiropractic would help, but she's gone
rapidly downhill (and managed to hide/trap herself for 36 hours at the
cusp, to complicate things).
It's grim.
73, doug
Brenda Daverin
Lebovitz) wrote:
> In article <slrn8ntnaj....@localhost.localdomain>,
> Graydon <anga...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >On 26 Jul 2000 05:28:51 GMT,
> >Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> scripsit:
> >>>
> >>I understood and enjoyed the reach/grasp reference, but what are
> >>the marble statues about?
> >
> >Sound ecology; heaven has _got_ to produce an excess of marble
> >statuary. It's like the obvious need for glass-eating birds, once our
> >biotech gets good enough. (Probably mixed solar and parasitically
> >powered, tucked up at night tapping into the street lights, birds.)
> >
> I'm not sure why there'd be an excess of marble statuary in heaven,
> unless you're visualizing it as looking rather like a graveyard. Imho,
> the only marble statues in heaven will be those that people carve
> for pleasure, and there will presumably be a greater excess of
> sweaters.
>
> Unfortunately, this has caused me to wonder whether there will
> be bad art in Heaven. I can see strong arguments for either
> possibility.
My hypothesis, using this as a springboard while not touching on my
opinions on what kind of afterlife I'm headed for: There will be art in
heaven that someone there would think of as bad, but the only people who
will see a given piece of art are the ones who will think it is good.
The way I see it, that'd be the kindest way to run that particular
railroad.
--
Brenda Daverin
bdav...@best.com
Loren Joseph MacGregor
>We're doing kitty hospice right now. Skit, Lyn's 17 year old cat, is
>mostly disabled right now, and has been diagnosed with a tumor on her
>spine. There's some hope that Prednisone will shrink the tumor enough
>for her to regain use of her legs for a while, but it's not looking
>good after three days. She's eating, but not drinking, so we're doing
>subcutaneous fluid.
>We'd been told she was in good health, just arthritic, and were
>hoping that acupuncture or chiropractic would help, but she's gone
>rapidly downhill (and managed to hide/trap herself for 36 hours at the
>cusp, to complicate things).
>It's grim.
Owoo. I am glad I'm reading this at work; I will have to make sure Phoebe
and Greymalkin don't see a copy when I'm at home. (They take turns
helping me with my usenet posts.)
I don't know what else to say, except I hope things resolve in the best
way possible.
-- LJM
>73, doug
Demian Phillips
>Graydon wrote:
>
>> Someone has been trying to teach bacteria to grow spider silk
>> proteins in vats; it's apparently possible that there will be
>> effectively indestructiveble stretch silk fabric with the colour
>> part of the fiber available in the next ten years or so.
>
>This is an interesting (but certainly comprehensible) colloquial use
>of the word "teach". Makes me wonder if students will be taught
>using this method, some day.
>
>I do believe that farmed spider silk that doesn't come from spiders
>will be a commercial reality at some point, but I've been hearing
>that it's likely "within ten years" since the mid-80's. Last I
>heard, maybe six months ago, the folks in the lead weren't using
>bacteria but had injected the appropriate genes into goats. The
>silk proteins show up in the goat's milk, from whence they can be
>spun using a centrifuge.
>
>The next step, apparently, is cloning the goats in large numbers, as
>this is apparently easier than splicing the spider genes in.
>
Sounds like some really stringy cheese.
--
+---------------------+-------------------------------------------+
|^_^ |Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty |
|Demian Phillips |five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I |
|PGP KEY ID 0x5BC4FCB4|finally won out over it. - Elwood P. Dowd |
Avram Grumer
Daverin <bdav...@best.com> wrote:
"Don't trip over that sculpture!"
"What scuplt-" crash, bang.
Alison Hopkins
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 wrote in message ...
>
>Now that's obscene.
>
>We're doing kitty hospice right now. Skit, Lyn's 17 year old cat, is
>mostly disabled right now, and has been diagnosed with a tumor on her
>spine. There's some hope that Prednisone will shrink the tumor enough
>for her to regain use of her legs for a while, but it's not looking
>good after three days. She's eating, but not drinking, so we're doing
>subcutaneous fluid.
>
>We'd been told she was in good health, just arthritic, and were
>hoping that acupuncture or chiropractic would help, but she's gone
>rapidly downhill (and managed to hide/trap herself for 36 hours at the
>cusp, to complicate things).
>
>It's grim.
>
I'm so sorry. That's a wretched thing to go through.
Ali
Kip Williams
> [Just as the first person I've been able to find out about who
> said "If I see further than others, it is because I am a dwarf
> standing on the shoulders of giants" was not Isaac Newton but St.
> Bernard.]
Actually, he said "If I see further than others, it is because I am
a dwarf standing on the back of a very large dog."
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Omega
<lmac...@efn.org> writes
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
>>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>>inadequate reasons.
>
>I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>upholstery.
>
first time. It made the tea I was sipping taste sour both times.
--
Omega
"Cat : one hell of a nice animal, frequently mistaken for a meatloaf."
B. Kliban
Omega
<kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>>
>>>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>>>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>>>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>>>inadequate reasons.
>>
>>I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
>>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>>upholstery.
>>
You probably don't want to know.
--
Omega
"Being constantly with children was like wearing a pair of shoes that were
expensive and too small. She couldn't bear to throw them out, but they gave her
blisters."
Beryl Bainbridge Injury Time
Kate Nepveu
I love Miss Manners.
I don't think I'd seen this said by her before, but it makes a lot of
sense. (Though I'd still feel stupid for not thinking of anything
more obvious heartfelt than those.)
Kate
--
http://lynx.neu.edu/k/knepveu/ -- The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
"I want peace on earth and goodwill toward men."
"*We are the United States Government*. We don't _do_ that sort of
thing." --_Sneakers_
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0500:
>In article <aKtut6Ab...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk>, MLG
><mor...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post - for
>> the vet's bill.
>
>Like I said on rasff, this is such a generous offer I'm stunned. Thank
>you. The money will help a lot. I'm not working at the moment, and DDB
>hasn't been paid lately. Things are tight. Here's my address:
>
>Lydia Nickerson
>3721 Blaisdell Avenue S.
>Minneapolis, MN 55409
>
>USA
The check's in the mail.
>
>I can't say thanks enough. It's silly to miss a cat I barely knew, but
>you know, I do.
No it's not--it's a cat. You have my sympathy.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0500:
>In article <8lj270$qlr$1...@wheel.two14.lan>,
>Cally Soukup <sou...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>David Dyer-Bennet <d...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote in article <m2em4jj...@gw.dd-b.net>:
>>
>>> Kitten pictures at
>>> http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/gallery.cgi/The%20Kitten%20Soon%20to%20be%20Known%20as%20Mistral
>>> (which nearly certainly will have wrapped to another line on your
>>> screen; be sure to join it back together right, or just start at my
>>> web site at http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b and navigate down to the snapshot
>>> album and the kitten pictures).
>>
>>> She's been to the vet, the initial tests show no infection (but the
>>> retest in 30 days is the big deal).
>>
>>Oh, what a sweetie. I hope Chinook likes her.
>
>They're both remarkably insoucient, so I think it will be ok. Chinook is
>back in Durance Vile while we wait out the quarantine period for
>respiratory infections and worms.
>
>I fed her dinner last night by hand, which worked pretty well. As long as
>I don't try to pet her, she'll come very close. She is not the most feral
>of feral kittens I've ever seen. I think she's decided that I'm an
>oversized replacement for Orange Mike.
I've met Orange Mike. I can think of any number of ways in which
you would, or would not, be a substitute for him, but "oversized"
is not one of them.
Doug Wickstrom
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> excited the ether to say:
>
>Loren Joseph MacGregor wrote in message <8lpnv5$ivb$5...@news.efn.org>...
>>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>>
>>>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>>>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>>>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>>>inadequate reasons.
>>
>>I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
>>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>>upholstery.
>>
>
>
>This actually makes me want to cause phsysical harm to the .... ach, I don't
>have a word for them. Or the people who dumped my Bear. Actually, I do for
>them, and it's bloody fools. He's a loving, gentle, funny, joyous delight of
>a cat, and he owns *us* not those idiots.
That's my Salem, all over again, but add "shy with strangers."
He's a great lump of fun and gentle affection, and has a purr
that can be heard across a room. Whoever completely declawed him
and then turned him out, well, ought to suffer an equivalent.
Little Tipper was a different case, and was never mistreated.
The person's roommate objected to the new kitten.
They were both ecstatic that I finally got a bed in the place.
They were even happier when I started using it, myself, last
night. So was I. I like the chair, but three months in it was
enough.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"The president has kept all of the promises he intended to keep."
--George Stephanopoulos
Lydia Nickerson
I love Miss Manners.
>
> I don't think I'd seen this said by her before, but it makes a lot of
> sense. (Though I'd still feel stupid for not thinking of anything
> more obvious heartfelt than those.)
But if you come up with something more heartfelt, it may well require
processing power from the mourner to parse. And it's when you try to
express how you feel that you most often step over the line and try to
co-opt someone else's grief. Murder that embarrassment, and use the
forms...unless you're speaking to someone you know so well that you
already know what to say. It's harder than it sounds, I know. But from
the other end, I know that the people that said, "I'm so sorry to hear
about Ember's death," were a lot easier to take than the ones that had
any number of comforting messages, including, "I'm sure you did the
right thing," (which I didn't, and wasn't theirs to judge), or that
dreadful "She's in a better place now." Both were honest attempts, but
it was an incredible effort not to blow up and vent how I felt about my
cat on the poor hapless friend who was just trying to help. The other
nice thing about the forms is that they aren't very specific. People
grieve very idiosyncratically, and a standard message doesn't suggest
that their grief process should follow a specific path.
Lydia Nickerson
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
> >As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
> >much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
> >they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
> >inadequate reasons.
>
> I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
> time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
> because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
> upholstery.
Ohmigod. Now I feel ill. Furry appliances. *shudder* Gods grant that
a facsimile animal comes along that becomes more trendy than these real
critters that have annoying habits.
Lydia Nickerson
+1-510-655-8604 <fa...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Loren Joseph MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> writes:
>
> >
> > In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
> >
> > >As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care
> > >that
> > >much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I
> > >guess
> > >they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
> > >inadequate reasons.
> >
> > I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
> > time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
> > because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
> > upholstery.
> >
>
> Now that's obscene.
>
> We're doing kitty hospice right now. Skit, Lyn's 17 year old cat, is
> mostly disabled right now, and has been diagnosed with a tumor on her
> spine. There's some hope that Prednisone will shrink the tumor enough
> for her to regain use of her legs for a while, but it's not looking
> good after three days. She's eating, but not drinking, so we're doing
> subcutaneous fluid.
>
> We'd been told she was in good health, just arthritic, and were
> hoping that acupuncture or chiropractic would help, but she's gone
> rapidly downhill (and managed to hide/trap herself for 36 hours at the
> cusp, to complicate things).
>
> It's grim.
ohhh. That's awful. The hydration is the thing that seems to make the
biggest difference in terms of comfort. Cats hide when they're sick,
which makes them really hard to treat. I wish you and Skit the best.
Leroy Berven
> mostly disabled right now, and has been diagnosed with a tumor on her
> spine. There's some hope that Prednisone will shrink the tumor enough
> for her to regain use of her legs for a while, but it's not looking
> good after three days. She's eating, but not drinking, so we're doing
> subcutaneous fluid.
>
> We'd been told she was in good health, just arthritic, and were
> hoping that acupuncture or chiropractic would help, but she's gone
> rapidly downhill (and managed to hide/trap herself for 36 hours at the
> cusp, to complicate things).
>
> It's grim.
It's grim, and very sad, and Sue and I have just been through something far
too similar when our oldest cat suffered what we (and the vet) think must
have been a stroke, and her condition deteriorated rapidly. Sympathy from
friends, who also cherish the feline members of their own families, helps.
You have ours.
--
Leroy F. Berven
ber...@wolfenet.com
Harry Payne
<kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>On 27 Jul 2000 16:28:21 GMT, Loren Joseph MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org>
>typed
>>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>>upholstery.
>>
Oh... Send them on a "tough love" camping holiday hoping they'll meet an
unfortunate accident or suchlike. I _really_ wanted to do something
painful to the troop leader, one of whose charges died of dehydration,
because her water bottle spilled and he wouldn't let anyone else share
their water with her.
--
Harry
Harry Payne
>In article <1J1yfsAw...@menageri.demon.co.uk>,
>Harry Payne <Ha...@menageri.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I believe it was a Jesuit who remarked that as a good Catholic he had to
>>believe in Hell because doctrine demanded it, but as he also believed in
>>God's goodness, it must therefore be empty.
>
>I've seen this attributed to Teilhard de Chardin.
>
--
Harry
mike weber
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> [Just as the first person I've been able to find out about who
>> said "If I see further than others, it is because I am a dwarf
>> standing on the shoulders of giants" was not Isaac Newton but St.
>> Bernard.]
>
>Actually, he said "If I see further than others, it is because I am
>a dwarf standing on the back of a very large dog."
>
"...on the backs of four elephants on the backs of a Really Large
Turtle."
mike weber
typed
>In article <8lpnv5$ivb$5...@news.efn.org>, Loren Joseph MacGregor
><lmac...@efn.org> writes
>>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>>
>>>As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
>>>much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
>>>they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
>>>inadequate reasons.
>>
>>I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
>>time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
>>because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
>>upholstery.
>>
>I had to read that twice just to make sure that I'd read it right the
>first time. It made the tea I was sipping taste sour both times.
>
Think "Cruella DeVille"
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> wrote:
>
> >As for love mattering, Dr. Ross reiterated that seeing someone care that
> >much for a mere stray was a help to her students...and to her. I guess
> >they'd had a streak of pet owners putting their animals down for
> >inadequate reasons.
>
> I was told by a representative at the SPCA in San Francisco that, over
> time, they'd seen more than one family who had brought in their pets
> because they'd changed decor and the pets no longer matched the
> upholstery.
That's disgusting, and I wish I could say I don't believe it, but a
friend of mine has a cat that was still available for her to adopt
because her coworker and his partner took her littermate, who matched
their decor better. And he told Rosemary this himself, so there's no
possibility of malicious gossips fabricating an insulting story. I can
hardly believe there are people who think like that, and yet there
they are.
--
Lis Carey
This post is copyright 2000 by Lis Carey; I disclaim
any responsibility for ad links within it.
Erik V. Olson
>The check's in the mail.
You know what I like about RASFF? It's one of the few places left in the
world where the above isn't generally considered a lie.
--
Erik V. Olson: er...@mo.net : http://walden.mo.net/~eriko/
Lydia Nickerson
Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> wrote:
> Quoth Lydia Nickerson <ly...@demesne.com> on Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:36:58
> -0500:
>
> >In article <aKtut6Ab...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk>, MLG
> ><mor...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Also, tell me where to send it and I'll pop 20 dollars in the post -
> >> for
> >> the vet's bill.
> >
> >Like I said on rasff, this is such a generous offer I'm stunned. Thank
> >you. The money will help a lot. I'm not working at the moment, and DDB
> >hasn't been paid lately. Things are tight. Here's my address:
> >
> >Lydia Nickerson
> >3721 Blaisdell Avenue S.
> >Minneapolis, MN 55409
> >
> >USA
>
> The check's in the mail.
> >
> >I can't say thanks enough. It's silly to miss a cat I barely knew, but
> >you know, I do.
>
> No it's not--it's a cat. You have my sympathy.
Thanks and thanks.
I'm embarrassed. I had actually intended to send the message as email
to Morgan, rather than post it. It was the darn complicated news
reader. (Ok, MT-Newswatcher. I'm joking about the complicated, but I
used .nn for years, so I'm getting used to Newswatcher again.)
John Kensmark
>
> In article <3980665...@news.mindspring.com>, mike weber
> <kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>> On 27 Jul 2000 16:28:21 GMT, Loren Joseph MacGregor
>> <lmac...@efn.org> typed
>>
>>> that, over time, they'd seen more than one family who had
>>> brought in their pets because they'd changed decor and the
>>> pets no longer matched the upholstery.
>>>
>
> Oh... Send them on a "tough love" camping holiday hoping they'll
> meet an unfortunate accident or suchlike.
ObSF: _The Grounding of Group 6_, by, um, Julian Thompson? In
which parents send their inconvenient children to a private 'outdoor
encounter' school with the understanding that they'll be disposed of
in the woods. Well, it's not deeply SF, but there's a brief psychic
moment.
John Kensmark kensmark#hotmail.com
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices.