The Mohammud Cartoons

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Lee Ratner

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Feb 3, 2006, 9:50:09 AM2/3/06
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I've been fascinated for several days by the latest confrontation
between the EU and the Muslim world.

Awhile ago, a Danish newspaper published a series of political
cartoons that depicted Mohammud. This pest off the Muslim world because
under Islam Mohammud is not suppossed to be depicted and the cartoons
were not flattering. Some Muslim countries recalled their ambasadors
from Denmark, others held protests and launched boycotts of Danish
goods. The Danish government refused to apologize stating that it does
not need to apologize for its citizens exercising freedom of speech.

Then other European nations, or at least other European newspapers,
came to the aid of the Danish press by reprinting the cartoons. The BBC
broadcasted the cartoons. Many European newspapers criticized the
Muslim world for having a double standard, nothing the vast amonts of
Jew-hatred in the Arab and Muslim media that they never apologize for.
The Muslim world does not seem to care.

The reaction to the Muslim world has been very severe so far and
will probably get more intense.

The Thunder Child

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Feb 3, 2006, 10:35:43 AM2/3/06
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>>>Then other European nations, or at least other European newspapers,
came to the aid of the Danish press by reprinting the cartoons.

And at least one editor was fired for doing so, I thought.

Caroline
The Thunder Child
http://thethunderchild.omnivoreink.com

David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 3, 2006, 10:35:51 AM2/3/06
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"Lee Ratner" <LBRa...@gmail.com> writes:

> I've been fascinated for several days by the latest confrontation
> between the EU and the Muslim world.

Yeah, me too. I can't tell if our press is cherry-picking the
response to make them look particularly stupid, or if what we're
seeing is really representative.

But none of the Western letters I've seen published really captures my
position. Which is: Get over it. That cartoon represents how a very
vocal faction of the islamic community is presenting itself to us.
And (subject to the above uncertainty about cherry-picking by the
press) I notice that there isn't an outcry about muslims justifying
their actions from the teachings of Mohammed; only about the Western
press depicting it that way.

(The particular cartoon I remember shows somebody apparently supposed
to be Mohammed wearing a typical head-dress, with a typical cartoon
bomb nestled in it.)

There's a lovely at <http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000768.html>
showing Mohammed (and a camel) gazing at a sketch-pad with that
cartoon on it, and two Western people with coffee, one saying
"Frankly, Mr. Mohammed, a few Danish cartoons are the LEAST of your
image problems...", and then a big easel with a list of issues.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Richard Eney

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Feb 3, 2006, 10:38:15 AM2/3/06
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In article <1138978209.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,

Lee Ratner <LBRa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Awhile ago, a Danish newspaper published a series of political
>cartoons that depicted Mohammud. This pest off the Muslim world because
>under Islam Mohammud is not suppossed to be depicted and the cartoons
>were not flattering. Some Muslim countries recalled their ambasadors
>from Denmark, others held protests and launched boycotts of Danish
>goods. The Danish government refused to apologize stating that it does
>not need to apologize for its citizens exercising freedom of speech.
>
> Then other European nations, or at least other European newspapers,
>came to the aid of the Danish press by reprinting the cartoons. The BBC
>broadcasted the cartoons. Many European newspapers criticized the
>Muslim world for having a double standard, nothing the vast amonts of
>Jew-hatred in the Arab and Muslim media that they never apologize for.
>The Muslim world does not seem to care.

In later development of this incident, various European papers and
magazines have not only reprinted the original cartoons but printed new
ones. (The initial ones represented Mohammed in the role of a suicide
bomber. I'm not sure what was done to top that.) Several Muslim sects
claim that Mohammed never shed blood. Credat Judaeus Apella.

-- Dick Eney

Dan Kimmel

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Feb 3, 2006, 11:14:58 AM2/3/06
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"The Thunder Child" <thethun...@omnivoreink.com> wrote in message
news:1138980943.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> >>>Then other European nations, or at least other European newspapers,
> came to the aid of the Danish press by reprinting the cartoons.
>
> And at least one editor was fired for doing so, I thought.
>

The editor of France Soir, which is owned by an Egyptian.


Dan Kimmel

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Feb 3, 2006, 11:14:37 AM2/3/06
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"Lee Ratner" <LBRa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138978209.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

This is something that everyone who believes in freedom -- liberal or
conservative, pro or anti Bush -- should agree on. We do not sacrifice our
freedoms on the altar of mob rule. If Muslim nations want to enforce their
religious law and prohibit illustrations depicting their prophet, that is
their business. But how dare they demand that Western democracies not only
bow to their demands, but *apologize* for our freedoms.

I would like to see newspapers all over the world run these cartoons. If
they are offensive to Muslims, too bad. Write a letter to the editor. I
see the filth and hate that appears without question in the Muslim media,
and see no reason at all to compromise on matters of principle.


Tim McDaniel

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Feb 3, 2006, 12:07:54 PM2/3/06
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> Awhile ago, a Danish newspaper published a series of political
>cartoons that depicted Mohammud. ... the cartoons were not
>flattering.

At least three were just cartoons -- drawings -- rather than political
cartoons. Two of them criticize Jyllands-Posten instead of Mohammed.
Anyone who wants to see for themselves can find them at, inter alia,
<http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html>

(About the one with the hornlike head projections: I'm not sure.
That might merely be a crescent behind the head, with the whole
"crescent as Islamic symbol" thing. I think the Bible refers to Moses
as having glowing horns.)

>The Danish government refused to apologize stating that it does not
>need to apologize for its citizens exercising freedom of speech.

I don't have the full text of his remarks. The Danish PM's comments
have been interpreted as an apology:
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4677976.stm> notes
The cartoons were first published in September 2005 by Danish
newspaper Jyllands-Posten. They were later republished in Austria
in January, and then at the beginning of February in a number of
European newspapers in France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

Diplomatic protests by governments of Islamic countries started in
October 2005, escalating to the closure of embassies. ...

On 2 February, Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen appeared on Arabic
TV to apologise for offence caused by the cartoons, but he also
defended freedom of expression.

But
<http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-03T142714Z_01_L03545299_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-CARTOONS.xml>
has

"Neither the Danish government nor the Danish nation as such can
be held responsible for drawings published in a Danish newspaper,"
Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said after meeting
with Muslim envoys in Copenhagen.

"A Danish government can never apologise on behalf of a free and
independent newspaper," he said. "This is basically a dispute
between some Muslims and a newspaper."

I suspect that he gave a carefully-worded, nuanced, and subtle
statement, and different people soundbited it into oblivion.

>Many European newspapers criticized the Muslim world for having a
>double standard, nothing the vast amonts of Jew-hatred in the Arab
>and Muslim media that they never apologize for.

I have not seen that in the coverage I've seen (BBC News on the Web),
and I'm sad to say that I didn't think of that argument.

--
"Me, I love the USA; I never miss an episode." -- Paul "Fruitbat" Sleigh
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com

Damien Sullivan

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Feb 3, 2006, 1:44:44 PM2/3/06
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David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>Yeah, me too. I can't tell if our press is cherry-picking the
>response to make them look particularly stupid, or if what we're
>seeing is really representative.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

Al-Sistani sounds saner.

But when you have embassies being withdrawn amid demands that Denmark punish
the newspaper, and a general boycott of Danish products, there doesn't seem
much room for cherry-picking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons

I think said that many Moslems think Denmark controls the paper -- that the
rumors going around are that the paper is an arm of the government or ruling
party. Which makes some of the reaction seem a bit more rational. OTOH,
they're wrong, so what to do?

>But none of the Western letters I've seen published really captures my
>position. Which is: Get over it. That cartoon represents how a very
>vocal faction of the islamic community is presenting itself to us.

More like, the paper commissioned the cartoons out of concern that
illustrators were afraid of death threats. Responding with death threats
doesn't help the point.

-xx- Damien X-)

Zev Sero

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Feb 3, 2006, 3:17:55 PM2/3/06
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A month ago I posted a link to the cartoons at
http://neowarmonger.blogspot.com/2006/01/danish-cartoons.html.
But the site I linked to seems to have been taken down, so I've updated
it today with a link that still works.


--
Zev Sero Security and liberty are like beer and TV. They go
z...@sero.name well together, but are completely different concepts.
- James Lileks

Steve Glover

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Feb 3, 2006, 3:45:05 PM2/3/06
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In article <RJWdnVsILIZ...@rcn.net>, Dan Kimmel
<daniel...@rcn.com> writes

>> And at least one editor was fired for doing so, I thought.
>>
>
>The editor of France Soir, which is owned by an Egyptian.

And an Egyptian of the Coptic persuasion, at that.

There was a link from the mediawatchwatch website to a blog that had the
cartoons, and also to a site with a collection of representations of
Mohammed ranging from mediaeval Persian through to the present day -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

- (the site's somewhat slashdotted right now, but apparently one of the
sets of cartoons is "Fun with the Prophet", a comic series from a Dutch
language (Belgian, Dutch?) newspaper.

Oh, and there's some really fancy portraits of Mohammed as sold on the
streets of various Middle Eastern capitals....

I'm beginning to wonder if the extension of "No Idolatry" to "No images"
is about as endemic in Islam as the "No work on Sunday" thing is in
Christianity (ie some sects take it to extremes, but others don't do it
at all, anymore).

The other thing we're getting is a whole bunch of folk saying (online
and in the mass media) -"You never see Christians kick up about all the
bad stuff we have to suffer, but as soon as these ethnics get their
knickers in a twist, the Government immediately takes their side"-. I
don't think these guys remember, for example, the "Jerry Springer, the
Opera" stushie....

Steve

--
Steve Glover, Fell Services Ltd.
Home: steve at fell.demon.co.uk, 0131 551 3835
Away: steve.glover at ukonline.co.uk, 07961 446 902


Steve Glover

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Feb 3, 2006, 3:45:39 PM2/3/06
to
In article <874q3gz...@gw.dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet
<dd...@dd-b.net> writes

>Yeah, me too. I can't tell if our press is cherry-picking the
>response to make them look particularly stupid, or if what we're
>seeing is really representative.

Not impossible. There's some interesting[1] stuff on -

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/english

- including the explanation of how it all flared up again after the
moderate Danish Muslim organisations said they'd be quite happy with an
assurance that the cartoons had not been meant offensively:

"Today almost all the European newspapers are reporting on the Danish
cartoon case. What most papers do not mention is that the whole affair
escalated after a group of radical Danish Muslims and imams visited the
Arab countries early in January with the deliberate intent to provoke a
consumer boycott of Denmark. These people wanted to punish the Danish
government for its refusal to introduce press censorship. They even
added three false cartoons, possibly of their own making, to the twelve
drawings of Muhammad that the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published
last September. (See the original cartoons here, halfway down the
page.)"

Steve

[1] Reading the site more deeply, there's fairly obviously an agenda
there...

Lee Ratner

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Feb 3, 2006, 4:14:02 PM2/3/06
to

Tim McDaniel wrote:
>
> >Many European newspapers criticized the Muslim world for having a
> >double standard, nothing the vast amonts of Jew-hatred in the Arab
> >and Muslim media that they never apologize for.
>
> I have not seen that in the coverage I've seen (BBC News on the Web),
> and I'm sad to say that I didn't think of that argument.
>
It was in today's New York Times.

Kip Williams

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Feb 3, 2006, 4:24:13 PM2/3/06
to
Steve Glover wrote:
> The other thing we're getting is a whole bunch of folk saying (online
> and in the mass media) -"You never see Christians kick up about all the
> bad stuff we have to suffer, but as soon as these ethnics get their
> knickers in a twist, the Government immediately takes their side"-. I
> don't think these guys remember, for example, the "Jerry Springer, the
> Opera" stushie....

They don't seem to hear themselves.

Or perhaps they think they're just this tiny minority, so even though
they know they're all complaining, they're still just outnumbered by...
well, minorities... and don't get heard.

Kip W

David Friedman

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Feb 3, 2006, 5:14:41 PM2/3/06
to
In article <N+Q6QvGR...@akicif.fsnet.co.uk>,
Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm beginning to wonder if the extension of "No Idolatry" to "No images"
> is about as endemic in Islam as the "No work on Sunday" thing is in
> Christianity (ie some sects take it to extremes, but others don't do it
> at all, anymore).

I don't think it was ever universal in Islam. As I understand it, the
Shia were generally less strict than the Sunni, and pretty much limited
it to "no images of living things inside the mosque."

Consider all those wonderful Persian miniatures.

--
www.daviddfriedman.com
daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

Damien Neil

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Feb 3, 2006, 5:43:56 PM2/3/06
to
Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The other thing we're getting is a whole bunch of folk saying (online
> and in the mass media) -"You never see Christians kick up about all the
> bad stuff we have to suffer, but as soon as these ethnics get their
> knickers in a twist, the Government immediately takes their side"-. I
> don't think these guys remember, for example, the "Jerry Springer, the
> Opera" stushie....

However, consider the volume and nature of the reaction to _The DaVinci
Code_ vs. the current Muslim bloviating.

(My reaction, too, is "Oh, get over yourselves, for crying out loud.")

- Damien

Tim McDaniel

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Feb 3, 2006, 5:15:17 PM2/3/06
to
In article <N+Q6QvGR...@akicif.fsnet.co.uk>,
Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>a site with a collection of representations of
>Mohammed ranging from mediaeval Persian through to the present day -
>
>http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
>
> - (the site's somewhat slashdotted right now,

Apparently mirrored at

<http://info2us.dk/muhammed/> - slow
<http://bamapachyderm.com/wp-content/mohammedmirror.htm>
<http://www.outpost911.com/>

Mike Van Pelt

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Feb 3, 2006, 8:27:07 PM2/3/06
to
In article <RJWdnVgILIZ...@rcn.net>,

Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
>This is something that everyone who believes in freedom -- liberal or
>conservative, pro or anti Bush -- should agree on. We do not sacrifice our
>freedoms on the altar of mob rule. If Muslim nations want to enforce their
>religious law and prohibit illustrations depicting their prophet, that is
>their business. But how dare they demand that Western democracies not only
>bow to their demands, but *apologize* for our freedoms.
>
>I would like to see newspapers all over the world run these cartoons. If
>they are offensive to Muslims, too bad. Write a letter to the editor. I
>see the filth and hate that appears without question in the Muslim media,
>and see no reason at all to compromise on matters of principle.

I wonder how far their principles will go. I have this very
strong suspicion that their expectations of what happens when
they annoy religious people have been set by the brief
complaints they have, in the past, received from Christian and
Jewish subjects of their disrespect.

I very much suspect that the fact that they're now stirring up
a bunch of very literally murderous fanatics didn't quite
penetrate their brains.

The results will be ... interesting.

--
Tagon: "Where's your sense of adventure?" | Mike Van Pelt
Kevyn: "It died under mysterious circumstances. | mvp at calweb.com
My sense of self-preservation found the body, | KE6BVH
but assures me it has an airtight alibi." (schlockmercenary.com)

Message has been deleted

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 3, 2006, 9:49:14 PM2/3/06
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"Mishalak" <Mish...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in
news:1139020345.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> Damien Sullivan wrote:
>> I think said that many Moslems think Denmark controls the paper -- that
>> the rumors going around are that the paper is an arm of the government
>> or ruling party. Which makes some of the reaction seem a bit more
>> rational. OTOH, they're wrong, so what to do?
>

> Explain patiently that the newspaper, unlike in most Muslim countries,
> is not censored or controlled by the government to anyone who'll
> listen. For those of us who are not Danish and like Denmark (me for
> example) I'll make more of a point than usual to buy Danish goods to
> offset any boycott effects. Other than that there is not much to be
> done until the rage passes.

Tonight is the regular open house at the LASFS Clubhouse. Generally there is
socializing and gaming of various sorts (Mah Jongg, card games, board games,
RPG, etc.). (There is a subset of us who go out to dinner together at
restaurants; that's my clique.) But in general those who wish to bring
snacks are welcome to do so.

I just stopped at the supermarket on my way home and bought some cheese:
Denmark's Finest creamy Havarti, and Rosenborg Danish Blue. I'll bring these
to the Clubhouse and put them on the snack table as open stock.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

Andrew Stephenson

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Feb 3, 2006, 9:53:18 PM2/3/06
to
Apropos (of) no particular posting on these Mohammed cartoons:-

Yet again something, that (AIUI) was already fading from public
consciousness, has been thrust into the faces of readers around
the world, guaranteeing that whatever offence it represents was
multiplied beyond reckoning. People who would never have heard
of the cartoons, or cared, have seen them. Counter-productive?

This kind of cretinous home goal happened with Salman Rushdie's
"Satanic Verses". Some fanatic decided to share-and-enjoy when
the book was passe and boosted its sales -- though I'm not sure
Rushdie is exactly grateful for the extra royalties.

Seems to me, those responsible for such PR coupes merit, at the
very least, a token of acknowledgement by their own team.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Dan Kimmel

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Feb 4, 2006, 7:42:57 AM2/4/06
to

"Andrew Stephenson" <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:113902...@deltrak.demon.co.uk...

Attempts at censorship is almost always counterproductive in free societies
because however much people might want to protect *others* from something,
they still want to decide for themselves. I remember about twenty years ago
a local cinama here opened up two Jean-Luc Godard films on two of their
three screens. They were Godard at his artiest, but one of them was "Hail
Mary," which led to picketing of the theater for his "blasphemous" modern
day version of the birth of Jesus. The other film, "Detective," played all
of two weeks. "Hail Mary" played for *months*.


Dan Kimmel

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Feb 4, 2006, 7:38:01 AM2/4/06
to

"Tim McDaniel" <tm...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ds02la$p5b$1...@tmcd.austin.tx.us...

> In article <1138978209.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Lee Ratner <LBRa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Awhile ago, a Danish newspaper published a series of political
> >cartoons that depicted Mohammud. ... the cartoons were not
> >flattering.
>
> At least three were just cartoons -- drawings -- rather than political
> cartoons. Two of them criticize Jyllands-Posten instead of Mohammed.
> Anyone who wants to see for themselves can find them at, inter alia,
> <http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html>
>
> (About the one with the hornlike head projections: I'm not sure.
> That might merely be a crescent behind the head, with the whole
> "crescent as Islamic symbol" thing. I think the Bible refers to Moses
> as having glowing horns.)

No, it doesn't. But a misinterpretation of the Hebrew (which refers to rays
of light coming from Moses as a result of his prolonged exposure to God's
presence) led to the variation about horns, which was picked up by
Michaelangelo (among others) when he did his sculpture of Moses.


Dan Kimmel

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Feb 4, 2006, 7:39:24 AM2/4/06
to

"Mishalak" <Mish...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139020345.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> Damien Sullivan wrote:
> > I think said that many Moslems think Denmark controls the paper -- that
the
> > rumors going around are that the paper is an arm of the government or
ruling
> > party. Which makes some of the reaction seem a bit more rational.
OTOH,
> > they're wrong, so what to do?
>
> Explain patiently that the newspaper, unlike in most Muslim countries,
> is not censored or controlled by the government to anyone who'll
> listen. For those of us who are not Danish and like Denmark (me for
> example) I'll make more of a point than usual to buy Danish goods to
> offset any boycott effects. Other than that there is not much to be
> done until the rage passes.

What makes you think the "rage" will pass. Doesn't Salman Rushdie still
have to watch his back?


Dan Kimmel

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Feb 4, 2006, 7:48:56 AM2/4/06
to

"Mike Van Pelt" <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote in message
news:43e402eb$0$76012$d36...@news.calweb.com...

> In article <RJWdnVgILIZ...@rcn.net>,
> Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >This is something that everyone who believes in freedom -- liberal or
> >conservative, pro or anti Bush -- should agree on. We do not sacrifice
our
> >freedoms on the altar of mob rule. If Muslim nations want to enforce
their
> >religious law and prohibit illustrations depicting their prophet, that is
> >their business. But how dare they demand that Western democracies not
only
> >bow to their demands, but *apologize* for our freedoms.
> >
> >I would like to see newspapers all over the world run these cartoons. If
> >they are offensive to Muslims, too bad. Write a letter to the editor. I
> >see the filth and hate that appears without question in the Muslim media,
> >and see no reason at all to compromise on matters of principle.
>
> I wonder how far their principles will go. I have this very
> strong suspicion that their expectations of what happens when
> they annoy religious people have been set by the brief
> complaints they have, in the past, received from Christian and
> Jewish subjects of their disrespect.

Several stern letters, perhaps some cancelled subscriptions, a review by the
editors if the critics have a point, and -- if called for -- sometimes an
apology. Otherwise, some letter or op-ed space for the critics to have
their say.


> I very much suspect that the fact that they're now stirring up
> a bunch of very literally murderous fanatics didn't quite
> penetrate their brains.
>
> The results will be ... interesting.

I'm finding the results horrifying. Like our shameful administration in
Washington taking the side of the mob:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/02/04/MNGOSH2TSD1.DTL

If I was the Danish head of state, I'd be summoning my ambassador back from
Washington for "consultations" and not be in a hurry to send him/her back.
(If I understand diplomatese, that's considered an expression of taking
umbrage bordering on the insulting response.)


Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 4, 2006, 12:10:11 PM2/4/06
to
"Dan Kimmel" <daniel...@rcn.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:nbydnfyFiIIKPnne...@rcn.net:

Last para of the article:

"He [top Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar] said he is protecting us not because
he is Hamas," said the Rev. Manuel Musallam of the Holy Family Roman
Catholic Church, who said he has long and friendly relations with Hamas.
"But he is protecting Christians and our institutions as the state of
Palestine and as a government."

Now there speaks a man who has a knife at his throat.

Andrew Stephenson

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Feb 4, 2006, 1:32:27 PM2/4/06
to
In article <nbydnf2FiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>
daniel...@rcn.com "Dan Kimmel" writes:

>
> "Andrew Stephenson" <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:113902...@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
> > Apropos (of) no particular posting on these Mohammed cartoons:-
> >
> > Yet again something, that (AIUI) was already fading from public
> > consciousness, has been thrust into the faces of readers around
> > the world, guaranteeing that whatever offence it represents was
> > multiplied beyond reckoning. People who would never have heard
> > of the cartoons, or cared, have seen them. Counter-productive?
> >

> > [...]


>
> Attempts at censorship is almost always counterproductive in
> free societies because however much people might want to protect
> *others* from something, they still want to decide for

> themselves. [...]

I won't disagree with you; but I wasn't advocating any kind of
censorship, merely marvelling at the stupidity of the bods who
could have let the matter rest but instead ensured the insults
(as perceived) were multiplied. "Wow," says one, "the Prophet
has been insulted nearly widely enough. Let's make sure _all_
of the world's infidels get a hearty laugh at His expense, not
just the few Danes who happened to read that newspaper issue."

Fanatics... *sigh* Makes you suspect a sh*t-stirring agenda.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Andrew Stephenson

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Feb 4, 2006, 2:24:36 PM2/4/06
to
In article <113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk>
am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk "Andrew Stephenson" writes:

> [...] "Wow," says one, "the Prophet has been insulted nearly
> widely enough. [...]

*gah* Typo. Read "hasn't" instead of "has". (Damn, it throws
off the text alignment something rotten. Don't you hate that?)
--
Andrew Stephenson

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing

unread,
Feb 4, 2006, 2:43:31 PM2/4/06
to
In article <nbydnf2FiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>, "Dan Kimmel" <daniel...@rcn.com> writes:
>
>Attempts at censorship is almost always counterproductive in free societies
>because however much people might want to protect *others* from something,
>they still want to decide for themselves. I remember about twenty years ago
>a local cinama here opened up two Jean-Luc Godard films on two of their
>three screens. They were Godard at his artiest, but one of them was "Hail
>Mary," which led to picketing of the theater for his "blasphemous" modern
>day version of the birth of Jesus. The other film, "Detective," played all
>of two weeks. "Hail Mary" played for *months*.

And it was an _exclusive_ engagement: no passes.

-- Alan

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Feb 4, 2006, 3:35:11 PM2/4/06
to
am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk:

> In article <nbydnf2FiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>
> daniel...@rcn.com "Dan Kimmel" writes:
>
>> "Andrew Stephenson" <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:113902...@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
>> > Apropos (of) no particular posting on these Mohammed cartoons:-
>> >
>> > Yet again something, that (AIUI) was already fading from public
>> > consciousness, has been thrust into the faces of readers around
>> > the world, guaranteeing that whatever offence it represents was
>> > multiplied beyond reckoning. People who would never have heard
>> > of the cartoons, or cared, have seen them. Counter-productive?
>> >
>> > [...]
>>
>> Attempts at censorship is almost always counterproductive in free
>> societies because however much people might want to protect *others*
>> from something, they still want to decide for themselves. [...]
>
> I won't disagree with you; but I wasn't advocating any kind of
> censorship, merely marvelling at the stupidity of the bods who could have
> let the matter rest but instead ensured the insults (as perceived) were

> multiplied. "Wow," says one, "the Prophet has[n't] been insulted nearly


> widely enough. Let's make sure _all_ of the world's infidels get a
> hearty laugh at His expense, not just the few Danes who happened to read
> that newspaper issue."
>
> Fanatics... *sigh* Makes you suspect a sh*t-stirring agenda.

Maybe the agenda was to try to get some Moslem Turks to behave incordially,
and lessen the likelihood that Turkey will join the EU.

Message has been deleted

Keith F. Lynch

unread,
Feb 4, 2006, 3:58:05 PM2/4/06
to
Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
> What makes you think the "rage" will pass. Doesn't Salman Rushdie
> still have to watch his back?

I don't think so. I seem to recall he has given well-publicized talks
in bookstores in recent years.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Keith F. Lynch

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Feb 4, 2006, 5:17:20 PM2/4/06
to
Mishalak <Mish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie
> "Rushdie subsequently declared that ... he regretted attempts to
> appease his critics by making statements to the effect that he was
> a practicing Muslim."

There are at least three ways to parse that sentence. Does anyone
know which way is correct? Thanks.

Dan Kimmel

unread,
Feb 4, 2006, 5:54:07 PM2/4/06
to

"Andrew Stephenson" <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk...

I was agreeing with you, not accusing you. :)


Dan Kimmel

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Feb 4, 2006, 5:55:58 PM2/4/06
to

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in message
news:ds34gt$bic$1...@panix3.panix.com...

> Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > What makes you think the "rage" will pass. Doesn't Salman Rushdie
> > still have to watch his back?
>
> I don't think so. I seem to recall he has given well-publicized talks
> in bookstores in recent years.

Which is not the same as saying that security isn't present, scanning the
room and the audience.


Andrew Stephenson

unread,
Feb 4, 2006, 9:43:45 PM2/4/06
to
In article <-YadnY30j5s...@rcn.net>
daniel...@rcn.com "Dan Kimmel" writes:

> "Andrew Stephenson" <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
>
> > [burblings in response to a Dan-posting]


>
> I was agreeing with you, not accusing you. :)

Whoops. Mea Big Culpa. Apogees... A man of flawless judgement.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Andrew Stephenson

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Feb 4, 2006, 9:38:08 PM2/4/06
to
In article <Xns97608008AB4...@207.217.125.201>

oy兀earthlink.net "Matthew B. Tepper" writes:

> Maybe the agenda was to try to get some Moslem Turks to behave
> incordially, and lessen the likelihood that Turkey will join
> the EU.

Quite possible. Maybe they'll join RASFF instead. We don't have
nearly enough ineffectual political debates since certain parties
went away, some time back. These religious ones are entirely too
educational.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Karl Johanson

unread,
Feb 5, 2006, 2:41:26 PM2/5/06
to
"Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
news:ds08ar$6od$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, me too. I can't tell if our press is cherry-picking the
>>response to make them look particularly stupid, or if what we're
>>seeing is really representative.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings
>
> Al-Sistani sounds saner.
>
> But when you have embassies being withdrawn amid demands that Denmark
> punish
> the newspaper, and a general boycott of Danish products, there doesn't
> seem
> much room for cherry-picking.

Woo hoo! More Danish cheese for the rest of us!

Karl Johanson


David Friedman

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Feb 5, 2006, 3:14:28 PM2/5/06
to
There's one point I think worth making on the Muslim side of this
controversy, that I don't think anyone has made.

At least some of the European countries don't believe in freedom of the
press, in particular with regard to Nazi or anti-semitic statements. My
understanding is that publicly denying the holocaust is a crime in
Germany--I will be happy to be corrected if that is wrong--and that
there are similar restrictions in France. I doubt it's true in Denmark,
don't know about Norway.

So it isn't entirely unreasonable for Muslims to feel that anti-Jewish
material is not permitted, anti-Muslim material is, although it requires
a significant amount of ignorance of the details (assuming I have them
right) to believe that about Denmark.

--
www.daviddfriedman.com
daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

Nancy Lebovitz

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Feb 5, 2006, 3:55:42 PM2/5/06
to
In article <ddfr-CE307A.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,

David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>There's one point I think worth making on the Muslim side of this
>controversy, that I don't think anyone has made.
>
>At least some of the European countries don't believe in freedom of the
>press, in particular with regard to Nazi or anti-semitic statements. My
>understanding is that publicly denying the holocaust is a crime in
>Germany--I will be happy to be corrected if that is wrong--and that
>there are similar restrictions in France. I doubt it's true in Denmark,

There's a Nazi Party in Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danmarks_Nationalsocialistiske_Bev%C3%A6gelse

>don't know about Norway.
>

--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".

Karen Lofstrom

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Feb 6, 2006, 12:24:31 AM2/6/06
to
In article <113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk>, Andrew Stephenson wrote:

> Fanatics... *sigh* Makes you suspect a sh*t-stirring agenda.

I've been wondering if the protests aren't REALLY a way for various Muslim
organizations to show off their power -- to the local government. They
can't go out into the streets to protest the Syrian dictatorship; they'd
be shot. However, the government doesn't dare shut down a protest against
Western disrespect for Muhammad, so the government has to sit mum
while the radicals strut and burn things.

Also, as recruitment tools for the radical imams. The guy who started the
big mess, with his tour of the Middle East bearing faked evidence, is
saying that the response is highly satisfactory and attendance at his
mosque has tripled.

--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because I could not stop for Death
He kindly left a message on my voice mail system -- Bryan O'Sullivan

Per Chr. J.

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 3:36:52 AM2/6/06
to
David Friedman wrote:

When it comes to Norway we do not have laws specifically targeting, for
example, Holocaust revisionism. The general constitutional right of
free speech is limited by several parts of the penal code, the relevant
paragraph stating that speech inciting to hate and discrimination of
for instance ethnic groups is not permitted. The law has been rarely
used and the precedent seems to be that the prosecution has to prove
the intention of incitement (I know that some anti-racism activists
want the law used more actively against their enemies, others prefer to
win in marketplace of ideas).

I saw an interview with a high-profile lawyer over here who is also a
Pakistani Muslim, and who wanted the sleeping laws against blasphemy
(against the Christian religion) revived and revised - and made into a
blanket ban on critisism of all religion. Oh joy. I've seen both
Muslims and Christians rail against the terrible freethinkers and
atheist, I wonder I we'd be covered by such a law as well. :-)

When it comes to Nazis, there are several small parties and groups
(these guys bicker a lot among themselves). I believe the
collaborationist Nasjonal Samling was specifically banned in 1945, and
their assets taken over by the state. Do not know whether the ban has
force of law nowadays, that is, if somebody said they were reviving the
Nasjonal Samling you could take their party assets...

Per

(I must add that I am not a lawyer, so I do not know the correct
translations for the legal terms, so there might be some sources of
error here.)

Dan Kimmel

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 6:26:40 AM2/6/06
to

"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-CE307A.1...@news.isp.giganews.com...

But anti-Jewish -- more particularly, anti-Israel -- material is not only
permitted, but is *widespread* in the European press. And virulently
antisemitic material is widespread in the Arab press.

So, no, I have no sympathy whatsoever with the "Muslim side of this
controversy." They don't like depictions of Mohammad. Fine. Don't read
publications that have them. Forbid them in your own countries. But
rioting in the streets, attacking and threatening people, burning down
embassies? These are the acts of the ignorant mob that wants to force
everyone else to accept their viewpoint as the only legitimate one.

It is VERY unreasonable for anyone to believe that European media prohbits
anti-Jewish material but allows anti-Muslim material.


Dan Kimmel

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 6:28:27 AM2/6/06
to

"Karen Lofstrom" <lofs...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:11udncf...@corp.supernews.com...

> In article <113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk>, Andrew Stephenson wrote:
>
> > Fanatics... *sigh* Makes you suspect a sh*t-stirring agenda.
>
> I've been wondering if the protests aren't REALLY a way for various Muslim
> organizations to show off their power -- to the local government. They
> can't go out into the streets to protest the Syrian dictatorship; they'd
> be shot. However, the government doesn't dare shut down a protest against
> Western disrespect for Muhammad, so the government has to sit mum
> while the radicals strut and burn things.
>

That's very astute. Forcing the western media and governments to cower may
simply be a fringe benefit.


Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 7:06:12 AM2/6/06
to
In article <nbydncOFiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>,

Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>No, it doesn't. But a misinterpretation of the Hebrew (which refers to rays
>of light coming from Moses as a result of his prolonged exposure to God's
>presence) led to the variation about horns, which was picked up by
>Michaelangelo (among others) when he did his sculpture of Moses.

The way I heard this story, it was a typo/misreading in the Latin
translation, "cornua" (horns) being substituted for "corona" (crown or halo).

--
Leif Kjønnøy, cunctator maximus. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 9:30:58 AM2/6/06
to
In article <ds7e3k$rqm$1...@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,

Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <lei...@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <nbydncOFiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>,
>Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>No, it doesn't. But a misinterpretation of the Hebrew (which refers to rays
>>of light coming from Moses as a result of his prolonged exposure to God's
>>presence) led to the variation about horns, which was picked up by
>>Michaelangelo (among others) when he did his sculpture of Moses.
>
>The way I heard this story, it was a typo/misreading in the Latin
>translation, "cornua" (horns) being substituted for "corona" (crown or halo).

No, I think it's a mistranslation of a Hebrew word. *No, I don't
know what word.) Certainly the misreading predates typesetting,
and simple metathesis of two letters isn't as common a scribal
error as a typesetting error.

Oh, here we are, it was St. Jerome's mistake of all people's.

http://www.moseshand.com/studies/moses.htm

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com

Zev Sero

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 10:13:17 AM2/6/06
to
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <lei...@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>>Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:

>>>No, it doesn't. But a misinterpretation of the Hebrew (which refers to rays
>>>of light coming from Moses as a result of his prolonged exposure to God's
>>>presence) led to the variation about horns, which was picked up by
>>>Michaelangelo (among others) when he did his sculpture of Moses.

>>The way I heard this story, it was a typo/misreading in the Latin
>>translation, "cornua" (horns) being substituted for "corona" (crown or halo).

> No, I think it's a mistranslation of a Hebrew word. *No, I don't
> know what word.)

It could be either one. The Hebrew word is "karan", from "keren", which
means "horn" or, by extension, "ray". Interesting that Latin has almost
the same similarity between these words, with the same consonants.
Makes one wonder whether they have a common origin.


> Certainly the misreading predates typesetting,
> and simple metathesis of two letters isn't as common a scribal
> error as a typesetting error.

In the Hebrew, they're the same word. Whether it means "horn" or "ray"
depends on context* - a bull has horns, the sun has rays. After a close
encounter of the divine kind, Moses' skin is far more likely to have
been emitting rays of light than to have sprouted horns. Beside which,
if they were horns, why would the people be afraid to look at him, so
that he would need a veil?

* Defining words according to context. The Aramaic word "chamra" can
mean "wine" or "donkey". It depends where the "chamra" is found - if
it's in the cellar it's wine, and if it's in the stable it's a donkey.

--
Zev Sero Security and liberty are like beer and TV. They go
z...@sero.name well together, but are completely different concepts.
- James Lileks

Richard Eney

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 10:28:19 AM2/6/06
to
In article <neild-usenet4-445...@news.newsguy.com>,
Damien Neil <neild-...@misago.org> wrote:
> Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> The other thing we're getting is a whole bunch of folk saying (online
>> and in the mass media) -"You never see Christians kick up about all the
>> bad stuff we have to suffer, but as soon as these ethnics get their
>> knickers in a twist, the Government immediately takes their side"-. I
>> don't think these guys remember, for example, the "Jerry Springer, the
>> Opera" stushie....
>
>However, consider the volume and nature of the reaction to _The DaVinci
>Code_ vs. the current Muslim bloviating.
>
>(My reaction, too, is "Oh, get over yourselves, for crying out loud.")

That's a satisfying thing to say to a fanatic. Provided you have your
hand on the butt of your loaded pistol, that is.

-- Dick Eney

OPERATION CRIFANAC PUBLICATIONS
http://www.crifanac.net/Index.htm
prozines and fanzines 'n' stuff

Richard Eney

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 10:37:45 AM2/6/06
to
In article <E8qdnRPFdb7YqHre...@rcn.net>,

Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>But anti-Jewish -- more particularly, anti-Israel -- material is not only
>permitted, but is *widespread* in the European press.

Jewish is not the same as Israeli, Israeli is not the same as Jewish.
Don't treat one as a mere subset of the other.

-- Dick Eney

Mark Atwood

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 10:57:50 AM2/6/06
to
dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) writes:
>
> That's a satisfying thing to say to a fanatic. Provided you have your
> hand on the butt of your loaded pistol, that is.

War-monger! What, you invest in Lockheed-Martin and Halliburton?

--
Mark Atwood When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@mark.atwood.name you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

Dorothy J Heydt

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Feb 6, 2006, 10:47:23 AM2/6/06
to
In article <hIJFf.10705$1n4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,

Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>
>In the Hebrew, they're the same word. Whether it means "horn" or "ray"
>depends on context* - a bull has horns, the sun has rays. After a close
>encounter of the divine kind, Moses' skin is far more likely to have
>been emitting rays of light than to have sprouted horns. Beside which,
>if they were horns, why would the people be afraid to look at him, so
>that he would need a veil?

Yes; except St. Jerome didn't know that. He should've; but he
didn't.

David Friedman

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 11:35:10 AM2/6/06
to
In article <1139215012.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

"Per Chr. J." <libris...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> When it comes to Norway we do not have laws specifically targeting, for
> example, Holocaust revisionism. The general constitutional right of
> free speech is limited by several parts of the penal code, the relevant
> paragraph stating that speech inciting to hate and discrimination of
> for instance ethnic groups is not permitted.

Thanks. Interesting.

Everyone, in the West, talks about freedom of speech, but a lot fewer
believe in it, at least judging by legal codes.

Presumably, true speech inciting to hate and discrimination of ethnic
groups would still be illegal, at least on paper.

--
www.daviddfriedman.com
daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

Scoop

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 11:41:55 AM2/6/06
to
Quoth Dorothy J Heydt:
: In article <ds7e3k$rqm$1...@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,

: Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <lei...@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
: >In article <nbydncOFiIIKPnne...@rcn.net>,
: >Dan Kimmel <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
: >>
: >>No, it doesn't. But a misinterpretation of the Hebrew (which refers to rays
: >>of light coming from Moses as a result of his prolonged exposure to God's
: >>presence) led to the variation about horns, which was picked up by
: >>Michaelangelo (among others) when he did his sculpture of Moses.
: >
: >The way I heard this story, it was a typo/misreading in the Latin
: >translation, "cornua" (horns) being substituted for "corona" (crown or halo).

: No, I think it's a mistranslation of a Hebrew word. *No, I don't
: know what word.)

Keren.

Robert Sneddon

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 11:55:13 AM2/6/06
to
In message <ddfr-9C43E6.0...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes

>Everyone, in the West, talks about freedom of speech, but a lot fewer
>believe in it, at least judging by legal codes.

It's like democracy. *We've* got democracy and *they* don't. So America
is a democracy where the total number of individual votes for a
President don't matter but Iran that has a universal franchise down to
sixteen-year-olds is not a real democracy because they elected a guy we
don't like.

What we've got is free speech because what we've got is what we call
free speech. I think people should be hoop-shaped because we're very
good at circular reasoning, or at least regarding that sort of reasoning
as sensible. Drambons, anyone?


>
>Presumably, true speech inciting to hate and discrimination of ethnic
>groups would still be illegal, at least on paper.

Yep. In the US, for example, it is a Federal offence to threaten the
life of the President even if there is no plan to implement said threat.
--
My gmail account is nojay1 Robert Sneddon

Mike Van Pelt

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Feb 6, 2006, 1:41:09 PM2/6/06
to
In article <11udncf...@corp.supernews.com>,

Karen Lofstrom <lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
>Also, as recruitment tools for the radical imams. The guy who
>started the big mess, with his tour of the Middle East bearing
>faked evidence, is saying that the response is highly
>satisfactory and attendance at his mosque has tripled.

Will it ever penetrate to the mass of rioting fanatics
that their imam is the one who actually perpetrated the
most outrageous of those cartoons? That by their own
alleged standards, it is their imam who is the blasphemer?

Or do they care at all? Is "religion" just an excuse,
to be given a fulsome show of devotion when it fits the
agenda, and to be trampled underfoot when it doesn't?

That certainly seems to be the case with the imam.

--
Tagon: "Where's your sense of adventure?" | Mike Van Pelt
Kevyn: "It died under mysterious circumstances. | mvp at calweb.com
My sense of self-preservation found the body, | KE6BVH
but assures me it has an airtight alibi." (schlockmercenary.com)

Mike Van Pelt

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 1:43:36 PM2/6/06
to
In article <GxsFf.336636$tl.83521@pd7tw3no>,
Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> ... a general boycott of Danish products ...

>
>Woo hoo! More Danish cheese for the rest of us!

When I went to my writers' group on Saturday, I picked up
a nice block of dill havarti at Whole Foods. Mmmmm!!

(And yes, I checked to make sure it was imported from Denmark.)

Damien Sullivan

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 3:45:46 PM2/6/06
to
Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> It's like democracy. *We've* got democracy and *they* don't. So America
>is a democracy where the total number of individual votes for a
>President don't matter but Iran that has a universal franchise down to
>sixteen-year-olds is not a real democracy because they elected a guy we
>don't like.

Also because of minor things such as completely undemocratic clerics removing
candidates they don't like from the ballots, and the same completely
undemocratic clerics having ultimate absolute power thus making the results of
the semi-democratic elections rather moot.

-xx- Damien X-)

Robert Sneddon

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 5:47:13 PM2/6/06
to
In message <ds8chq$5m3$1...@naig.caltech.edu>, Damien Sullivan
<pho...@ofb.net> writes

And the US removing voters from the rolls for odd reasons inconsistent
between states for a Federal election, and screwing up when they did
try. Poll tax anyone? The Supreme Court making decisions on who should
be President that are not binding on future cases?

Like I said, you've got a democracy which, looked at from the outside
has a certain banana-shape to it and you're declaring the young elective
democracy that replaced the absolute rule of the Pahlavi Throne as not
being a democracy at all. It's like the US condemning human rights
abuses in Syria while running CIA torture gulags offshore out of the
reach of the Constitution.

Marilee J. Layman

unread,
Feb 6, 2006, 7:13:38 PM2/6/06
to
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 05:24:31 -0000, lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom)
wrote:

>In article <113907...@deltrak.demon.co.uk>, Andrew Stephenson wrote:
>
>> Fanatics... *sigh* Makes you suspect a sh*t-stirring agenda.
>
>I've been wondering if the protests aren't REALLY a way for various Muslim
>organizations to show off their power -- to the local government. They
>can't go out into the streets to protest the Syrian dictatorship; they'd
>be shot. However, the government doesn't dare shut down a protest against
>Western disrespect for Muhammad, so the government has to sit mum
>while the radicals strut and burn things.
>
>Also, as recruitment tools for the radical imams. The guy who started the
>big mess, with his tour of the Middle East bearing faked evidence, is
>saying that the response is highly satisfactory and attendance at his
>mosque has tripled.

The Telegraph blog says that the Muslims created three additional,
more obscene, cartoons themselves to stir things up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=P30&blog=newsdesk&xml=/news/2006/02/06/bleurope06.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/02/06/ixportaltop.html
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/

Damien Sullivan

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Feb 6, 2006, 9:45:47 PM2/6/06
to
Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> And the US removing voters from the rolls for odd reasons inconsistent
>between states for a Federal election, and screwing up when they did
>try. Poll tax anyone? The Supreme Court making decisions on who should
>be President that are not binding on future cases?
>
> Like I said, you've got a democracy which, looked at from the outside
>has a certain banana-shape to it and you're declaring the young elective
>democracy that replaced the absolute rule of the Pahlavi Throne as not
>being a democracy at all. It's like the US condemning human rights

US democracy sure isn't perfect, and if you removed the clerics Iran would
have what looks like good democratic mechanisms out of the box, and I'm not
going to defend administration rhetoric on anything.

But I'd stand by the US being a lot more democratic than Iran right now. Iran
*does* have the clerics, and the Supreme Leader. They had a reformist
President, and I think Parliament, and it didn't matter because the Leader and
Guardians have the real power.

The UK's democracy ain't exactly perfect either.

-xx- Damien X-)

Karl Johanson

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Feb 7, 2006, 1:30:34 AM2/7/06
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"Mike Van Pelt" <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote

> Or do they care at all? Is "religion" just an excuse,
> to be given a fulsome show of devotion when it fits the
> agenda, and to be trampled underfoot when it doesn't?

Yuh.

Karl Johanson


Karl Johanson

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Feb 7, 2006, 1:40:09 AM2/7/06
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"Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name> wrote in message

> In the Hebrew, they're the same word. Whether it means "horn" or
> "ray"
> depends on context* - a bull has horns, the sun has rays. After a
> close
> encounter of the divine kind, Moses' skin is far more likely to have
> been emitting rays of light than to have sprouted horns. Beside
> which,
> if they were horns, why would the people be afraid to look at him, so
> that he would need a veil?

Maybe cuz they weren't used to seeing the advanced makeup used to turn
human actors into various creatures in modern times & found anything out
of the ordinary frightening.

Karl Johanson


davt...@hotmail.com

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Feb 7, 2006, 1:45:38 AM2/7/06
to

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:

> Last para of the article:
>
> "He [top Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar] said he is protecting us not because
> he is Hamas," said the Rev. Manuel Musallam of the Holy Family Roman
> Catholic Church, who said he has long and friendly relations with Hamas.
> "But he is protecting Christians and our institutions as the state of
> Palestine and as a government."
>
> Now there speaks a man who has a knife at his throat.

You have evidence he isn't telling the truth?

David Tomlin

Daniel R. Reitman

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Feb 7, 2006, 2:16:45 AM2/7/06
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On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 05:24:31 -0000, lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom)
wrote:

>. . . .

>Also, as recruitment tools for the radical imams. The guy who started the
>big mess, with his tour of the Middle East bearing faked evidence, is
>saying that the response is highly satisfactory and attendance at his
>mosque has tripled.

Hmm. I wonder what would happen if they charged him with making
fraudulent accusations of disrespect for the Prophet. . . .

Dan, ad nauseam

Daniel R. Reitman

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Feb 7, 2006, 2:23:19 AM2/7/06