Phil gets _Spirited Away_ while watching Anime DVDs
Philip Chee
I think I promised Thomas Yan that I'd eventually post something
about Miyazaki's latest magnum opus. Unfortunately I think he's in
the process of moving to Boston (wherever that might be).
<Marty>
I hope he manages to see this message before it scrolls off his server
</Marty>
First off I have to say I seem to have acquired a fistful of DVDs in
my search for a non-bootlegged copy, unfortunately this seems
impossible in Malaysia or even on the web. Somebody earlier pointed
me to the Anime pirateDVD faq and all the copies I have appear to be
dodgy to some degree or another. Can anyone recommend a website
that can be depended on not to supply dodgy DVDs? Ta!
<< Spoiler Warning. Spoiler Warning.
Abandon shop!
This is not a daffodil!
Repeat: This is not a daffodil!
You have been Warned >>
.
. "Perhaps God rewards martyrs, but life seldom does..."
. --Ulrika O'Brien
>
. "Not everything in life has a clue in front of it...." --JMS
.
. Shadows '96: when you're tired of "Cthulhu for President"
.
. "The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste."
. --Steve Jobs
.
. (From _Triumph of the Nerds_ PBS special)
.
. "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing
. -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and
. utility of snow."
. -- PNH to RB in r.a.sf.f
.
. "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool."
. -- piranha
.
. "If I have a biological clock, it's either broken or needs a new
. battery." --JDO'C
.
. "If sarcasm were posted to the Net, would anybody notice?" --JDN
.
. gfarber: Thank God, or the belief system of your choice.
. pddb: Does human perversity count as a belief system?
.
.
.
.
Tower of Babel Department
-------------------------
In the Cantonese soundtrack Chihiro is Chin-Chang and in Mandrin
Chihiro is Shen-Shi, however the Chinese subtitles use the same
characters as the Kanji in the Japanese subtitles. I guess that
they are pronouncing her name phonetically (is that the correct
word).
In Cantonese Yubaba is Grandma Tong (Tong Por); I don't know what
exactly it is in Mandrin since I don't actually speak that language
but it's possibly "Auntie Tong".
In Cantonese Haku is addressed as Hak Sin-Sang (equivalent to
Haku-sama in the Japanese).
In the Cantonese version when Chihiro approaches Yubaba for a job
she addresses her as granny (por-por) informal mode. I'm pretty
sure that this is wrong. This isn't in the English subtitles for
one and I didn't hear that on the Japanese soundtrack.
When Yubaba takes away all those syllables from Chihiro's name, the
new name that she gives Sen is Siew Chin (Cantonese) or Siaw Shen
(Mandrin).
Every so often the Japanese subtitles have little squiggles above
one of the more complicated characters; these squiggles on closer
inspection turn out to be other Japanese characters. Weird.
I viewed about twenty minutes of the begining of the DVD (Disney
version) with the Cantonese soundtrack and the English subtitle
options selected.
The English subtitles on this DVD were in perfect idiomatic English
(as opposed to the Taiwanese version where it appears to have been
translated first from Japanese to Mandrin then to English using
Babelfish software) and the Cantonese soundtrack was in contemporary
idiomatic Cantonese. It was just that enough times they were two
different idioms and the resulting semiotic tension gave me a
headache and I gave up.
Example: Near the begining Chihiro complains that her flowers are
dying. The English subtitles has her mother say "When we reach the
house, put them in some water and they'll perk right up". In
Cantonese it goes something like: "When we get back home, add some
water then no matter" - Or more idiomatically "...then it'll be OK".
I don't know how the original Japanese goes, however I suspect that
"perk right up" isn't standard Japanese idiom. Please correct me if
I'm wrong (being rasff this request is probably redundant).
In the English sub, Chihiro's mother addresses Chihiro's father as
"honey". In the Cantonese soundtrack it's "husband". The Japanese
soundtrack it's something like -anata-. Wossitmean?
On the Mandrin soundtrack Chihiro addresses her parents as mama and
baba (or papa - what's the ASCII glyph for a sound half way between
b and p?). On the other hand the Cantonese dub has Chihiro saying
mommy and daddy - or rather mom/my\ah and dad/dy\ah - where / and \
represent rising and falling tones. Now this is very modern Hong
Kong Cantonese - at least the only places where I've heard these
used in a chinese context is in TVB serials (Hong Kong soaps) with
contemporay settings. I found this jarring because Chihiro is
supposed to be a Japanese character and these neologisms are quite
HK specific. I think that in this context the translators should
have stuck to a more standard chinese translation.
Actual Comments on the Story Department
---------------------------------------
From: Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:28:51 -0500
Message-ID: <m1bs3y39...@twcny.rr.com>
> Hm. His medecine ball helped Haku. Did he intend / expect that?
Hm. Her (Chihiro)? Haku was dying, the spell was killing him.
Chihiro had nothing to lose. "Perhaps this can help" she say to him.
> + I was confused when we first see the dragon, and Chihiro
> mysteriously leaps to the conclusion that it is Haku. I didn't
> follow that, unless it was just supposed to show they had some
> kind of connection that allowed her to recognize him even in an
> unfamiliar form.
We first see the dragon when Chihiro is on the way back to the
bath house after being shown her parents (in pig form) by Haku. She
turns around to say something to Haku but all she sees is a dragon
(that dragon) flying away from where Haku was standing.
The next time Chihiro sees the dragon, it's being attacked by
Zeniba's paper birds and she guesses it's Haku but isn't totally
sure until later.
From: ex...@gw7.gateway.ne.jp (Todd Strickland)
Date: 7 Dec 2002 10:29:03 -0800
Message-ID: <910eb03.02120...@posting.google.com>
>Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:<m1bs3y39...@twcny.rr.com>...
>> + What are the different Japanese honorifics? In general, I'm
>> wondering if the dubbed version missed some nuances in the
>> original.
> Sorry, I've only seen it in Japanese. But there are a couple of
> points where the use of honorifics plays a part in the story.
> When Haku helps Chihiro at first, he tells her "watashi no
> na[mae] wa Haku da" (My name is Haku), and he seems very friendly
Shouldn't that be "watashi no na[mae] wa Haku desu" ?
> and familiar with her. But later, after meeting Yubaba, she
> rides down in the elevator with him and says "Haku..." (with no
> -san, meaning that she feels on familiar terms with him), but he
> scolds her with "watashi no koto wa haku-sama to yobe!" ([you
> must] address me as 'Haku-sama'). "-sama" is an honorific form of
> "-san," but keep in mind that these terms are only used when
> addressing others, not ourselves. There are two points
[....]
>> + When the hippo-rat-baby stepped on the smushed slug, he
>> started making a bunch of gestures. I didn't get it. I
>> thought he was playing charades with the animated soot, um,
>> "bunnies". I didn't realize he was freaked out about
>> stepping on something evil and thus repeated the warding
>> gesture that Chihiro did.
> That warding gesture is an old Japanese children's game,
> called "en ga chou" or "en kiri" in Japanese. It's usually
> used when you want to break off a friendship with someone
> (not really, but you know how children are). Say you don't
> like Ayaka anymore because she laughed at your drawing in
> class, so at recess you put your fingers together in a
> circle and say "en ga chou" (cut the relationship) and then
> Takeshi cuts your circle with his hand and says "kitta!"
> (It's cut!). Your connection with Ayaka has now been
> irrevocably severed (at least until she shares her lunch
> dango with you!). Ideally this is done in full view of
> Ayaka in order to inflict maximum emotional trauma.
>
> It's also used to "cleanse" oneself of something dirty (like
> stepping in dogshit). Until you do "en ga chou," no one
> will want to play with you...
The English subtitlers obviously decided that this was essentially
untranslatable and put in some meaningless dialog to bridge over the
scene. Thanks for your explanation.
[....]
>> + Chihiro still had that friendship braid (?) --I wish the
>> color had been more obviously different from her original
>> hair-tie-- and Haku said they would meet again. But how?
>> Hm, I don't remember now, but my vague impression is that
>> Chihiro couldn't return to that place.
> The point about them meeting again was that someday Haku would
> return to the "real" world and find her. It's unclear if this
> means he will come back as a boy, or if he will retake his place
> as a river god. I think Miyazaki is saying that even though
> people cover over rivers and destroy nature, in the long run, the
> spirit of these places will prevail. But there is something of
> desperation in their promise to meet again. "Kitto," "kitto,"
> (definitely, definitely) they keep saying, but it seems hopeless.
>> + Zeniba was interesting. At first, she appeared to be as
>> evil or more evil than Yubaba, but by the end, it almost
>> seems like she set things up, planned for Chihiro's (and
>> Haku's?) true love to break the protection spell, free Haku
>> from Yubaba's control, and help the hippo-rat-baby mature.
>> Well, I guess none of the characters was actually evil.
> Miyazaki rarely creates black/white good/evil characters.
> No-face is a perfect example. Everyone has good and bad
> within them.
> But again, I don't know about the English version but in the
> Japanese, at the end, Haku is not free from Yubaba's
> control. He is still obligated to remain there, and even if
> he could get out from under her thumb, he still has nowhere
> else to go. Chihiro's and Haku's parting is supposed to
> pull your heartstrings because the chances of him getting
> back to the real world are so slim.
In the English sub Haku says "I'll talk to Yubaba and end my
apprentiship with her. I'll be fine now that I've got my name back
again". He adds "I'll be going back to my world too".
From: Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 18:03:57 -0500
Message-ID: <m1u1hpz...@twcny.rr.com>
> ex...@gw7.gateway.ne.jp (Todd Strickland) writes:
>> da" (My name is Haku), and he seems very friendly and familiar
>> with her. But later, after meeting Yubaba, she rides down in the
>> elevator with him and says "Haku..." (with no -san, meaning that
>> she feels on familiar terms with him), but he scolds her with
>> "watashi no koto wa haku-sama to yobe!" ([you must] address me as
>> 'Haku-sama').
> If I recall correctly, and I very well may not, in the English
> dub, he says -"you must call me master"-, which seems to me like a
> reasonable translation.
The English sub says something like "you must call me Master Haku".
The Cantonese dub is similar.
From: Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 18:02:24 -0800
Message-ID: <071220021802245711%ne...@misago.org>
> In article <m1u1hpz...@twcny.rr.com>, Thomas Yan
> <ty...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>> In the dub, Zenibaba invites Chihiro to call her "Granny". Did the
>> Japanese version have Zeniba ask Chihiro to address her more
>> familiarly?
> Interesting. I don't remember. Clearly I also need to rewatch it.
In the DVD Chihiro initially addresses her as Zeniba-san, after
having a cuppa and a chat she spontaneously addresses Zeniba as
Obaachan.
From: Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:53:05 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <slrnb0djnh....@panix1.panix.com>
> I am also most interested in the scenery...did anyone else notice
> what seemed to be a crowd of old black guys getting off the train?
Did anyone notice that after the crowd of slightly transparent
black, um, ghosts, got off at the platform and the train was pulling
away, Chihiro looks back and on the platform was one of them was
looking back, no details but the outline of that wossit was that of
Haku's?
From: ex...@gw7.gateway.ne.jp (Todd Strickland)
Date: 24 Dec 2002 00:06:21 -0800
Message-ID: <910eb03.02122...@posting.google.com>
> Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:<m1ptrsb...@twcny.rr.com>...
>> I didn't notice Yubaba telling Chihiro to mind her manners,
>> at least not quite in those words. She did say -"Do you
>> want to die?"- instead of -"Do you want me to turn you into
>> a piece of coal?"-.
> In the Japanese Yubaba tells Chihiro this is her first job. She will
> take the customer to the large bath. Chihiro starts to say something
> but Yubaba cuts her off and says:
>
> "shi no go no iu to, sekitan ni shichimau yo!"
>
> Translating this phrase is a good example of the difficulty with dubs
> and subtitles, so I'll explain it in some detail. Let's take the
> second part first, since it's meaning is not ambiguous.
>
> "sekitan ni shichimau yo!"
> (sekitan=coal, ni=into [grammatical marker attatched
> to 'sekitan'], shichimau=become changed,
> yo=[exclamation; emphasis marker])
>
> So the phrase translates literally as:
>
> "[You] will get changed into a piece of coal."
>
> or more to the point:
>
> "I [Yubaba] will change you into a piece of coal."
>
> Now on to the first part of the phrase. This is an idiom, and a very
> obscure one at that, so translating it is tough:
>
> "shi no go no iu to..."
> (shi=four, no=and [non-standard usage], go=five,
> no=[object marker; non-standard usage], iu=say,
> to=if)
>
> So the word-for-word translation is:
>
> "If you say 'four' and 'five'..."
>
> Which is an idiom meaning:
>
> "If you chatter..."
>
> or sometimes:
>
> "If you complain..."
>
> So the whole phrase could best be translated as:
>
> "If you complain, I'll change you into a lump of coal!"
>
Indeed in the English subtitles Yubaba says "Don't chatter or I'll
turn you into [a piece of] coal".
Omoshiroi! Thanks for the detailed explanation.
>> The girl's voice is not as young/whiny.
> I haven't heard the English, but if Chihiro is any more whiny at
> the beginning of the film, it must be unbearable! In the
> Japanese, she starts off REALLY whiny; it gets on my nerves!
In the Cantonese dub, Chihiro is young, whiny *and* spoilt! At
one point near the begining just as they were about to enter the
tunnel her mother exclaims in exasperation "Oh Really!". This
wasn't in the English sub.
From: Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:11:56 +0000
Message-ID: <XDxBKXAM...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>
> The English dub is aimed at Western audiences (more specifically
> American). I read an article quoting Neil Gaiman who wrote the dub
> script for "Mononoke Hine". He was given an English
> transliteration of the original Japanese text but he had to make
> this work as a story to bee understood by a non-Japanese audience.
> The example he gave was the scene where the priest is trying the
> soup in the market. The original script had him saying "This soup
> tastes like water.", a mortal insult to a Japanese cook. Neil
"This soup tastes like water." works in Chinese too.
> spiced this up to "This tastes like donkey piss." to show just how
> rude thee priest was being.
But this is something a Japanese character isn't likely to say and
it detracts from my suspension of disbelief. YMMV.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20420.72 ž Never argue with a dragon. or a sysop.
Philip Chee
[.....]
p.s. Does Pixar realise that their lamp is moonlighting over at
Studio Ghibli?
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
þ 20439.05 þ Support your local medical examiner: die strangely.
Damien Neil
<phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:
> << Spoiler Warning. Spoiler Warning.
> Abandon shop!
> This is not a daffodil!
> Repeat: This is not a daffodil!
> You have been Warned >>
> Every so often the Japanese subtitles have little squiggles above
> one of the more complicated characters; these squiggles on closer
> inspection turn out to be other Japanese characters. Weird.
That would be "furigana". Japanese has three alphabets--two phonetic
(hiragana and katakana, collectively called kana) and one ideographic
(kanji). It's common to provide a phonetic reading of kanji that the
reader may not be familiar with by writing kana next to the kanji.
These kana are "furigana".
Children's books may have furigana for every kanji. Books written for
an older audience may have none at all.
It's possible to play games with furigana. For example, a character
may say "anno onna" ("that woman"), while the furigana beside the words
are another character's name. In this case, the actual words said are
carried in the main text, while the implications are in the furigana.
This can lead to some quite complex puns where the furigana and kanji
completely disagree with each other.
> In the English sub, Chihiro's mother addresses Chihiro's father as
> "honey". In the Cantonese soundtrack it's "husband". The Japanese
> soundtrack it's something like -anata-. Wossitmean?
"Anata" is literally "you". In context, however, it's also a familiar
way for a woman to address her husband. "Honey" or "darling" is a good
translation in this case.
Japanese has, incidentally, at least half a dozen words for
"you"--which one you use depends on context, dialect, and your relation
to the person you are addressing. In many cases it's better to not use
a pronoun at all, and address people by their name or title. ("Would
the customer like some assistance?", said to the customer.)
> > Sorry, I've only seen it in Japanese. But there are a couple of
> > points where the use of honorifics plays a part in the story.
> > When Haku helps Chihiro at first, he tells her "watashi no
> > na[mae] wa Haku da" (My name is Haku), and he seems very friendly
>
> Shouldn't that be "watashi no na[mae] wa Haku desu" ?
"da" is a less formal form of "desu". I can't remember which Haku used.
> > The English dub is aimed at Western audiences (more specifically
> > American). I read an article quoting Neil Gaiman who wrote the dub
> > script for "Mononoke Hine". He was given an English
> > transliteration of the original Japanese text but he had to make
> > this work as a story to bee understood by a non-Japanese audience.
> > The example he gave was the scene where the priest is trying the
> > soup in the market. The original script had him saying "This soup
> > tastes like water.", a mortal insult to a Japanese cook. Neil
>
> "This soup tastes like water." works in Chinese too.
Works for me in English as well, for that matter.
And it wasn't soup, anyway. Looked more like congee. I saw it as more
a comment on the quality of the rice than the cooking.
> > spiced this up to "This tastes like donkey piss." to show just how
> > rude thee priest was being.
>
> But this is something a Japanese character isn't likely to say and
> it detracts from my suspension of disbelief. YMMV.
It certainly doesn't work as a translation of that particular line.
I'm on the fence as to whether it works in the context of translating
the character as a whole. Jiko-Bou has a very uncultured, crass manner
of speaking; the line may work as a means of conveying that.
- Damien
Philip Chee
>In article <104178273...@aleytys.pc.my>, Philip Chee
><phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:
>> In the English sub, Chihiro's mother addresses Chihiro's father as
>> "honey". In the Cantonese soundtrack it's "husband". The Japanese
>> soundtrack it's something like -anata-. Wossitmean?
>"Anata" is literally "you". In context, however, it's also a familiar
>way for a woman to address her husband. "Honey" or "darling" is a good
>translation in this case.
>Japanese has, incidentally, at least half a dozen words for
>"you"--which one you use depends on context, dialect, and your relation
>to the person you are addressing. In many cases it's better to not use
>a pronoun at all, and address people by their name or title. ("Would
>the customer like some assistance?", said to the customer.)
In Malay there are several dozen ways of saying I and YOU depending
on context and the relation (status) between the speaker and
speakee, a holdover from the feudal past. Malays seem to have given
up on memorising which pronoun to use when and just use the English
"you" and "I" in informal conversation.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20435.16 ž I know Karate, and several other Japanese words.
Damien Neil
<phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:
> In Malay there are several dozen ways of saying I and YOU depending
> on context and the relation (status) between the speaker and
> speakee, a holdover from the feudal past. Malays seem to have given
> up on memorising which pronoun to use when and just use the English
> "you" and "I" in informal conversation.
Heh. Alas, the Japanese are showing no signs of abandoning their
boatload of pronouns. (They've got at least a half-dozen ways of
saying "I" as well.)
- Damien
Karen Lofstrom
> Heh. Alas, the Japanese are showing no signs of abandoning their
> boatload of pronouns. (They've got at least a half-dozen ways of
> saying "I" as well.)
Tongans have humble and ordinary pronouns, but they also have humble,
ordinary, and exalted nouns. Frex, there's a word for arm that can only be
used of God and the King of Tonga. You can't say "fire" in front of
important people -- the ordinary word is crude -- so you say "light"
instead.
You can do those shades of meaning in English -- "limb" is stuffier than
"arm" -- but it's not impolite to refer to the Queen's arm.
Ordinary people can be absolutely terrified of speaking to superiors,
because they don't know the proper turns of phrase. So they have, if
possible, a matapule speak for them. Matapule is a hereditary position,
but matapules are trained in elegant speech
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Um, mee too, add me to the list, please send me the n3kk1d
jp3gs of the 5hr0ud 0v tur1n. -- wednsday
David Goldfarb
Karen Lofstrom <lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
>In article <060120032256492302%ne...@misago.org>, Damien Neil wrote:
>
>> Heh. Alas, the Japanese are showing no signs of abandoning their
>> boatload of pronouns. (They've got at least a half-dozen ways of
>> saying "I" as well.)
>
>Tongans have humble and ordinary pronouns, but they also have humble,
>ordinary, and exalted nouns. Frex, there's a word for arm that can only be
>used of God and the King of Tonga. You can't say "fire" in front of
>important people -- the ordinary word is crude -- so you say "light"
>instead.
Japanese does something similar. I don't recall nouns offhand, but
for "to do" there's "yaru" (low or humble) "suru" (ordinary) and
"nasaru" (polite).
(I've heard that "yaru" has been used as a euphemism for "to have sex"....)
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "Oh no, foolish Jed, you have let out
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | the verbal gerbils!"
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- _Sandman_ #11
Damien Neil
<gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> Japanese does something similar. I don't recall nouns offhand, but
> for "to do" there's "yaru" (low or humble) "suru" (ordinary) and
> "nasaru" (polite).
>
> (I've heard that "yaru" has been used as a euphemism for "to have sex"....)
Pretty much the same as in English: "I'd do her."
- Damien
David Goldfarb
Well, yes -- or, "they were doing it."
--
David Goldfarb <*>|Seen on the marquee of a disused porn
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |theatre in New York City:
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "What urge will save us now that sex won't?"
Julie Lim
>
[politeness levels]
> Japanese does something similar. I don't recall nouns offhand, but
> for "to do" there's "yaru" (low or humble) "suru" (ordinary) and
> "nasaru" (polite).
And there are apparently six different verbs for "to give", depending
on the relative social levels involved in the transaction: yaru,
ageru, morau, kureru, itadaku, and kudasaru, though I won't attempt a
rundown of which is which.
Damien Neil
<womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And there are apparently six different verbs for "to give", depending
> on the relative social levels involved in the transaction: yaru,
> ageru, morau, kureru, itadaku, and kudasaru, though I won't attempt a
> rundown of which is which.
"ageru", "kureru", and "kudasaru" all mean "to give" (although
"kudasaru" is used somewhat differently from the others). "morau" and
"itadaku" mean "to receive".
- Damien
Karen Lofstrom
> "ageru", "kureru", and "kudasaru" all mean "to give" (although
> "kudasaru" is used somewhat differently from the others). "morau" and
> "itadaku" mean "to receive".
Aha! That's what "itadakimasu" means. Sometimes my Zen women's group,
instead of saying a real grace before meals, just choruses "itadakimasu"
and chows down.
Fun living in Hawai'i where even haoles eat Japanese food, doff their
shoes at the door, and say "itadakimasu" before they eat.
Tho' sometimes the island stuff isn't *quite* Japanese. This morning I got
breakfast on the run: teriyaki hot dog musubi.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tender, smells of goat, with a deep blue mold skin,
dusted with charcoal.
Damien Neil
<lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
> Aha! That's what "itadakimasu" means. Sometimes my Zen women's group,
> instead of saying a real grace before meals, just choruses "itadakimasu"
> and chows down.
It's always fun watching translators try to figure out how to handle
"Itadakimasu". One which sticks in my mind is "for what I am about to
receive..."; it's literally accurate, somewhat figuratively accurate (a
set phrase said before meals), and completely inaccurate (adding
religious connotations which aren't there at all).
There's also "gochisousama deshita", said after meals, which literally
means something like "you have treated me". That usually turns into
"thanks for the food" in translation.
> Fun living in Hawai'i where even haoles eat Japanese food, doff their
> shoes at the door, and say "itadakimasu" before they eat.
I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
> Tho' sometimes the island stuff isn't *quite* Japanese. This morning I got
> breakfast on the run: teriyaki hot dog musubi.
Heh. Hawaiian food is just odd.
- Damien
Julie Lim
> "ageru", "kureru", and "kudasaru" all mean "to give" (although
> "kudasaru" is used somewhat differently from the others). "morau" and
> "itadaku" mean "to receive".
Whoops. Dunno why whatever webpage I Googled the list from lumped all
of them together; I only remembered hearing about three or four, but
couldn't recall what they were. Several of those can also be
idiomatically used as helping verbs, can't they? The "kudasai" polite
request is the only one I know offhand, though.
Still trying to wrap my brain around the concept of the "suffering
passive" verb form: "Much to my regret, I was compelled to do this act
against my better judgement."
Karen Lofstrom
> I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
Exactly.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Oh what a cute wee thing!
Joanne
This is a good reason to study languages of other cultures -
to get a notion of their world view. In Spanish, there is a
similar construction. It's kind of a linguistic "Shit
Happens." One of my favorites is "se me olvidó por
completo" - it forgot itself to me. A way of saying "I
forgot" without owning it.
--
Joanne <mailto:joa...@singerlady.reno.nv.us>
Visit here today: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/
Damien Neil
<womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "ageru", "kureru", and "kudasaru" all mean "to give" (although
> > "kudasaru" is used somewhat differently from the others). "morau" and
> > "itadaku" mean "to receive".
>
> Whoops. Dunno why whatever webpage I Googled the list from lumped all
> of them together; I only remembered hearing about three or four, but
> couldn't recall what they were. Several of those can also be
> idiomatically used as helping verbs, can't they? The "kudasai" polite
> request is the only one I know offhand, though.
Yes...I don't think I've ever heard "kudasaru" used other than as the
"-kudasai" suffix.
yatte agemasu: "[I'll] do it [for you]."
yatte kuremasu: "[You] do it [for me]."
yatte moraimasu: "[He] does it [for me]."
yatte kudasai: "Please do it [for me]".
(Actual meaning dependant on context. Void where prohibited. Do not
ingest orally.)
> Still trying to wrap my brain around the concept of the "suffering
> passive" verb form: "Much to my regret, I was compelled to do this act
> against my better judgement."
Huh. I've never heard of that before. Googling for it found a
description, but I can't remember ever hearing that construction. From
the few examples Google found for me, it sounds vaguely similar to the
"-shimaimashita" suffix in meaning.
- Damien
Damien Neil
<lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
> In article <100120030054439100%ne...@misago.org>, Damien Neil wrote:
>
> > I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
>
> Exactly.
How is it pronounced? "How-less"?
- Damien
Philip Chee
>In article <100120030054439100%ne...@misago.org>, Damien Neil wrote:
>> I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
Over here in this part of the world we just call them "gwailo"
(devil people) or less generically "bak gwai" (white devils) "hak
gwai" (black devils) et cetra.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ş 20517.09 ş Awwww its just a Harmless little Bunny!
Vicki Rosenzweig
GMT:
>In article <v1uouvb...@corp.supernews.com> lofs...@lava.net writes:
>>In article <100120030054439100%ne...@misago.org>, Damien Neil wrote:
>
>>> I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
>
>Over here in this part of the world we just call them "gwailo"
>(devil people) or less generically "bak gwai" (white devils) "hak
>gwai" (black devils) et cetra.
>
I get amusing reactions when I refer to myself as a gwailo. (It seems
to have far less force as a term in Hong Kong than in some other
Cantonese-speaking places, based on my admittedly brief experience.)
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Karen Lofstrom
>> > I've never heard "haoles"...is that Hawaiian for "gringo"?
>>
>> Exactly.
>
> How is it pronounced? "How-less"?
If we were trying to pronounce the Hawaiian part of it right, we'd say:
ha (ha as in aha!) - o (o as in toe) - le (le as in lept)
taking care to keep the vowels short and not blur the a and o together.
Then you'd add a 'z' sound.
Many people aren't that careful with their Hawaiian pronounciation and
they say:
howl (as in Allen Ginsberg) - ies (as in loonies).
More than you wanted to know, but ...
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I may not be the president, I may not be the pope
But as long as I have Gritty Kitty, I shall never mope
Rob Hansen
(David Goldfarb) wrote:
>In article <070120032229111500%ne...@misago.org>,
>Damien Neil <ne...@misago.org> wrote:
>>In article <ave5mp$126k$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, David Goldfarb
>><gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>> Japanese does something similar. I don't recall nouns offhand, but
>>> for "to do" there's "yaru" (low or humble) "suru" (ordinary) and
>>> "nasaru" (polite).
>>>
>>> (I've heard that "yaru" has been used as a euphemism for "to have sex"....)
>>
>>Pretty much the same as in English: "I'd do her."
>
>Well, yes -- or, "they were doing it."
I liked an exchange with his wife that Billy Connolly reported:
Him: "One loves one."
Her: "One reciprocates with ardour."
Him: "One would like to give one one."
--
Rob Hansen
=============================================
Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Philip Chee
>In article <v1sko81...@corp.supernews.com>, Karen Lofstrom
><lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
>> Aha! That's what "itadakimasu" means. Sometimes my Zen women's group,
>> instead of saying a real grace before meals, just choruses "itadakimasu"
>> and chows down.
>It's always fun watching translators try to figure out how to handle
>"Itadakimasu". One which sticks in my mind is "for what I am about to
>receive..."; it's literally accurate, somewhat figuratively accurate (a
>set phrase said before meals), and completely inaccurate (adding
>religious connotations which aren't there at all).
Watching a road relay race on NHK today (because there was nothing
better on at the time), "itadakimas[u] da" seems to be used by the
commentators during the baton change over. I would also make a wild
guess that "niju roku-san" means contestant number 26 [1] on no other
evidence except that the camera was on the runner wearing No. 26 at
the time. And the winning time was niji roppun [2] or 2 hr 06 min.
[1] Indeed google says: ni=2, ju=10, roku=6.
[2] google [3] says: "roppun" is irregular.
[3] If Google didn't exist, it would have to be invented stat.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ş 20521.53 ş Give and you might receive. Take and be sure of it.
Philip Chee
>Quoth phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) on Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:16:53 GMT:
>>Over here in this part of the world we just call them "gwailo"
>>(devil people) or less generically "bak gwai" (white devils) "hak
>>gwai" (black devils) et cetra.
>I get amusing reactions when I refer to myself as a gwailo. (It seems
>to have far less force as a term in Hong Kong than in some other
>Cantonese-speaking places, based on my admittedly brief experience.)
I think gwailo these days is pretty much neutral to slightly
positive unless prefixed with "bleedin' %$#@*!". The more specific
<colour word> gwai still has negative connotations.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20531.53 ž Please return stewardess to original upright position.
Thomas Yan
> Dear Rasff,
>
> I think I promised Thomas Yan that I'd eventually post something
> about Miyazaki's latest magnum opus. Unfortunately I think he's in
> the process of moving
I'm largely settled in now. Main missing things: TV, TV cable
service, hot water. (Damn it, I think Buffy is on tonight!)
> to Boston (wherever that might be).
! I guess I'm rather US-centric. I'd have thought everyone here on
RASFF would have a rough idea of where Boston, Massachusetts, USA is.
Oh. I guess the US is kind of big -- for a number of cities in, say,
Europe, I can "locate" them only in the sense of having a good idea of
which country they're in, but since countries in Europe are about the
size of states in the U.S., that's roughly comparable to how well I
can locate cities in the U.S. (I'm assuming in all cases that a handy
map/globe is available.)
> <Marty>
> I hope he manages to see this message before it scrolls off his server
> </Marty>
Absolutely. I love News.CIS.DFN.DE -- they are free and have really
good retention of articles.
I expect I'll be able to respond by the end of the weekend.
-snip-
Philip Chee
>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>> to Boston (wherever that might be).
>! I guess I'm rather US-centric. I'd have thought everyone here on
>RASFF would have a rough idea of where Boston, Massachusetts, USA is.
Aw Geez Thomas, doncha know when your leg is being pulled?
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20594.02 ž Always remember you're unique - just like everyone else.
Thomas Yan
> In article <m1u1gb5...@twcny.rr.com> ty...@twcny.rr.com writes:
>>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>
>>> to Boston (wherever that might be).
>
>>! I guess I'm rather US-centric. I'd have thought everyone here on
>>RASFF would have a rough idea of where Boston, Massachusetts, USA is.
>
> Aw Geez Thomas, doncha know when your leg is being pulled?
Heh. Reasonably often not. I am sometimes knowingly overly-literal,
but other times am inadvertently over-literal. (And right just now,
I'm trying to decide if I prefer "overly literal" or "over-literal".)
Adina Adler
> phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) writes:
>
> > Dear Rasff,
> >
> > I think I promised Thomas Yan that I'd eventually post something
> > about Miyazaki's latest magnum opus. Unfortunately I think he's in
> > the process of moving
>
> I'm largely settled in now. Main missing things: TV, TV cable
> service, hot water. (Damn it, I think Buffy is on tonight!)
You're safe, it wasn't. The next new episode is Jan. 21.
--
Adina
Thomas Yan
> Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com> writes:
>
>> I'm largely settled in now. Main missing things: TV, TV cable
>> service, hot water. (Damn it, I think Buffy is on tonight!)
>
> You're safe, it wasn't. The next new episode is Jan. 21.
Phew! And it looks like I won't need to take you up on your kind
offer to lend me you Buffy tapes. I think I'm covered for episodes
before this week, and my TV is in and hopefully will be hooked up to
cable tomorrow.
Somewhat back on topic, my Amazon Alerts for "Spirited Away" and
"Castle in the Sky (Laputa)" fired -- they are available for
pre-order! Yay! (I assume you've all already heard about Harry
Potter 5.)
Christopher K Davis
> Still trying to wrap my brain around the concept of the "suffering
> passive" verb form: "Much to my regret, I was compelled to do this act
> against my better judgement."
Sounds like something Dilbert should hear about.
--
Christopher Davis * <ckd...@ckdhr.com> * <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/ckd/>
Of course I feel old. The videos I used to watch on MTV (back when they
still showed videos) moved to VH1, and now they're on "VH1 Classic".