Orlando 2023 NASFIC Bid Withdraws

[evelynchim...@gmail.com]

I'm surprised no one has yet commented on:

<https://file770.com/orlando-in-2023-nasfic-bid-folds/>

Statement from the bid:

"With a heavy heart, we write to inform you that Orlando is backing out of the 2023 NASFiC race. This was an incredibly difficult choice to make so close to the vote at Chicon 8 – Chicago Worldcon 2022. There were some factors to our decision that were in our control that helped guide us and some sadly not in our control."

The irony that they positioned themselves as a more ethical alternative to Chengdu, and then got torpedoed (in large part, one suspects) by the current governmental shift in Florida has not been lost on some folks.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

[Keith F. Lynch]

ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The irony that they positioned themselves as a more ethical
> alternative to Chengdu, and then got torpedoed (in large part, one
> suspects) by the current governmental shift in Florida has not been
> lost on some folks.

I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
the sign of the hammer and sickle.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Scott Dorsey]

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
>who does not also condemn China for its politics.

I suspect few do, which is why there are many people who normally go to
Worldcon who are not going to either Worldcon OR Nasfic next year.

I am kind of sad to see a Worldcon which is not really integrated with
world fandom and is kind of cut off, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[James Nicoll]

In article <tcolmf$iu0$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
>>who does not also condemn China for its politics.
>
>I suspect few do, which is why there are many people who normally go to
>Worldcon who are not going to either Worldcon OR Nasfic next year.
>
>I am kind of sad to see a Worldcon which is not really integrated with
>world fandom and is kind of cut off, though.
>--scott

I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[evelynchim...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 10:33:01 AM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
> who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
> cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
> blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
> millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
> the sign of the hammer and sickle.

I agree with your basic assertion, and I don't think anyone is giving
China a pass, but it has also been pointed out that the Chinese had
their government forced upon them, while Floridians actually voted
their guys in.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

[Gary McGath]

On 8/7/22 10:32 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The irony that they positioned themselves as a more ethical
>> alternative to Chengdu, and then got torpedoed (in large part, one
>> suspects) by the current governmental shift in Florida has not been
>> lost on some folks.
>
> I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
> who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
> cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
> blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
> millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
> the sign of the hammer and sickle.

There are. The blog post I wrote on the subject is based on my
experience with one such person on Discord.

https://garymcgath.com/wp/worldcon-nasfic-hypocrisy/

When I urged that everyone should stay clear of the China Worldcon and
say why, he said that it's fine to go to the Worldcon, keep your eyes
averted and mouth shut, and then go home. He didn't seem impressed by my
argument that Worldcons are about expressing a range of ideas and that
this purpose is incompatible with a country that doesn't allow free speech.

Then I posted a link to an article about the Orlando bid withdrawal, and
this same person was saying that he'd never attend a con in such an evil
state.

Some people think that bad things which governments do matter only if
they're done to Americans.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

[Gary McGath]

Voting for a candidate doesn't mean supporting everything the candidate
does once elected. Candidates routinely lie about what they're going to
do, and their opponents may be just as bad or worse. It isn't feasible
to ask each person you meet in a state, "Whom did you vote for and why?"

[Keith F. Lynch]

ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with your basic assertion, and I don't think anyone is
> giving China a pass, but it has also been pointed out that the
> Chinese had their government forced upon them, while Floridians
> actually voted their guys in.

Yes and no. More than 10% of adult citizens in Florida are
permanently forbidden from voting due to felony convictions, and
many more wrongly think they're forbidden from voting. Also, lots
of Florida residents can't vote because they aren't US citizens.

Note that the 2000 presidential election depended on Florida, and that
the vote difference between Gore and Bush was more than a thousand
(!) times smaller than the number of Florida residents forbidden from
voting due to felony convictions.

Also, most of those convicts never got a trial, so there's no reason
to think they were guilty. Most accused people in the US take plea
bargains. It's the rational thing to do since the sentence you'll get
at trial is much higher than the sentence you'd get in a plea bargain,
and since you're almost certain to be convicted even if innocent
unless you can afford a good felony defense, which costs more than
a house.

Florida did restore the voting rights of felons in 2019, but only
those who had not only finished their sentence, but also paid off all
court costs, fines, and restitution, whether at the local, state, or
federal level. And it's all but impossible for any ex-convict to find
out whether they have any such debts. Since there's a severe criminal
penalty for voting, or even registering to vote, if you owe even one
cent to any government, and since lots of people have little knowledge
of the legal system, and may know that they "got in trouble," but
not know whether their charge was a tort, mental hold, infraction,
misdemeanor, or felony, or whether charges in other states, other
nations, or in the military count, or what the disposition of their
charge was, very few "justice-involved" people in Florida dare to
register to vote. Red flag gun laws, in which people can lose rights
due to malicious gossip with no criminal charges, further confuse the
picture, as does civil forfeiture, in which cops seize property on
the grounds that it's crime-related, again with no criminal charges.

China, Russia, North Korea, and all Communist and all Islamic
countries certainly have much worse justice systems. But the US is
still pretty bad in an absolute sense. Lots of Americans, including
Biden and I, are irate about Brittney Griner being sentenced to nine
years in prison in Russia for possessing a small amount of marijuana
oil, even though there's no doubt of her guilt. But some people in
the US are serving longer sentences for possessing less marijuana,
with less evidence of guilt, and Biden has the power to free them,
but doesn't.

Otto Warmbier was sentenced to 15 years in prison in North Korea for
allegedly attempting to steal a propaganda poster. But some people
are serving life sentences in the US for stealing similarly trivial
things, such as a slice of pizza or a pair of socks, often with less
evidence against them than there was in Warmbier's case.

Getting back to the Worldcon, SMOFs need to decide how, within the
existing rules, to make it impossible for unsuitable countries such
as China (hosting in 2023), Saudi Arabia (bidding for 2026), Iran,
Iraq, Afghanistan, or North Korea (no bids from any of them so far,
thankfully) to ever again host the Worldcon. (Until their governments
are reformed, of course.) Since the proposed rule change would have
to pass during two consecutive Worldcons, there's no more point in
voting on it in Chicago this year than in China next year, so we have
two years to decide.

One possibility is to define what is a rogue state for the purpose of
Worldcons. We'd have to be careful, since most such definitions are
inherently fuzzy. Even the US doesn't have absolute freedom of speech,
as Alex Jones just learned the hard way. (Though I have little doubt
that his secret paymasters will easily pay off the $49 million he owes,
and whatever the families of the other 25 Sandy Hook victims win in
their suits against him.)

Another possibility is to forbid residents of the bidding country from
voting on site selection, or perhaps just to require that at least a
third of non-residents vote for the site. (Note that China got very
few votes from non-Chinese people.)

Another approach is to just not worry about it. If Communists or
Islamists take over the Worldcon, they'll find they own nothing but a
few trademarks. The Worldcon and the Hugo award can be re-created by
the rest of us under new names.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>When I urged that everyone should stay clear of the China Worldcon and
>say why, he said that it's fine to go to the Worldcon, keep your eyes
>averted and mouth shut, and then go home. He didn't seem impressed by my
>argument that Worldcons are about expressing a range of ideas and that
>this purpose is incompatible with a country that doesn't allow free speech.

You take your subversion where you can get it. Stranger In a Strange Land
has already been translated into Chinese. With luck, Coventry will be
translated soon enough.

I think bringing science fiction to China -is- a good thing and that opening
minds anywhere, in any country, no matter what their government is like is
of benefit. In fact, I think people in a dictatorship need science fiction
more than anyone.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/7/22 6:29 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> You take your subversion where you can get it. Stranger In a Strange Land
> has already been translated into Chinese. With luck, Coventry will be
> translated soon enough.
>
> I think bringing science fiction to China -is- a good thing and that opening
> minds anywhere, in any country, no matter what their government is like is
> of benefit. In fact, I think people in a dictatorship need science fiction
> more than anyone.
> --scott
>

I fully agree on that. Bringing fans and authors from dictatorships to
comparatively free countries is a good thing, and a fan fund for that
purpose would be a good idea.

Getting, for example, Cixin Liu to other countries might help him to see
through the propaganda which has him saying that the Uyghurs need to be
oppressed. I don't know whether he says that because he really believes
it or because his livelihood compels him to, but I'm willing to cut him
slack as a person in view of his circumstances. At the same time, having
even an involuntary supporter of massive oppression as a Worldcon guest
in the country doing the oppressing isn't acceptable.

When a convention is held in a country which makes it impossible for the
con to function as it should, where the government gains the appearance
of acceptability, it does no good, only harm.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
> the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
> not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
> Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
> bid to carry the day.

How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
Centerville?

--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

[James Nicoll]

In article <m2k07i6...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>> I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
>> the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
>> not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
>> Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
>> bid to carry the day.
>
>How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
>Centerville?

Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots
occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.

There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.

[Tim Merrigan]

China (and India) has a distinct advantage in anything that requires
body counts. I will occasionally point out that there are more
soldiers in the Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population
of the United States.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[Scott Dorsey]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
>their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
>but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
>perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
>get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.

I don't think Americans really get just how big China is. China is a really
really big place and even if only a small number of people are interested
in SF, that's a huge number of fans.

I remember talking to Japanese people who were visiting the US who were
stunned to find they couldn't drive from southern Virginia to Philadelphia
to have a quick lunch. China is to the US what the US is to Japan.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/8/22 1:38 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <m2k07i6...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>> begin fnord
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>
>>> I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
>>> the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
>>> not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
>>> Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
>>> bid to carry the day.
>>
>> How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
>> Centerville?
>
> Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
> total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
> during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots
> occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
> the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
> Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
> in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
> was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
> effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
> lead, while the second failed.
>

There was an authenticity issue, as many of the Chinese ballots had
email addresses but not physical addresses. Some claimed that this is
what Chinese people are used to doing. I don't know. Chengdu is already
a big science-fiction center in China, and it's possible that many of
the votes were "sponsored" by someone with a financial interest in
holding a big con there.

My personal opinion is that Kevin Standlee released the information
because of those issues. I share those concerns, but at this point I
don't want that issue to be a distraction. It's done with. I seriously
don't believe he did it to tip the scale.

My concern right now is with getting a groundswell of people to say they
won't have anything to do with a Worldcon where a severely autocratic
government holds sway.

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>>
>There was an authenticity issue, as many of the Chinese ballots had
>email addresses but not physical addresses. Some claimed that this is
>what Chinese people are used to doing. I don't know. Chengdu is already
>a big science-fiction center in China, and it's possible that many of
>the votes were "sponsored" by someone with a financial interest in
>holding a big con there.

We will find out soon enough when the actual at-con membership totals
become available. It's easy for random non-fans to pay to vote (as we
saw with the Hugo votes a few years ago) but not so easy for them to
pay for full memberships.

>My personal opinion is that Kevin Standlee released the information
>because of those issues. I share those concerns, but at this point I
>don't want that issue to be a distraction. It's done with. I seriously
>don't believe he did it to tip the scale.

This is fair enough.

>My concern right now is with getting a groundswell of people to say they
>won't have anything to do with a Worldcon where a severely autocratic
>government holds sway.

I think this is a mistake but we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

[evelynchim...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 7:09:14 PM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
> My concern right now is with getting a groundswell of people to say they
> won't have anything to do with a Worldcon where a severely autocratic
> government holds sway.

There may also be a groundswell of people who *might* have gone to
Chengdu, but China's "Zero COVID" policy, complete with unpredictable
city-wide quarantines for indeterminate lengths of time, is making them
decide against it. It's not even clear whether Chinese fans outside of
Chengdu will attend in any numbers.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I will occasionally point out that there are more soldiers in the
> Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population of the United
> States.

Are they trained? Or does China just call everyone within a certain
age range a soldier, much as the US defines every able-bodied American
man aged 17 through 45 as a member of the militia?

If they are trained, what is their purpose? To invade the US? I
wonder how many could fit in each of the largest cargo ships that
routinely travel between China and the US, how quickly they could
disembark in the US, and how long it would take for the US military
to make an effective response to such an invasion.

[Keith F. Lynch]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
> in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg.

My impression is that his intention was to *discourage* at-con votes
for Winnipeg as a lost cause which would merely waste the voters'
money and siphon that money directly to China.

Of course this wouldn't discourage at-con votes *for* China; quite
the opposite. The fact that there were so few such votes is strong
evidence that there was very little support for China among people
who attend Worldcons.

[James Nicoll]

In article <tcsbkq$pbv$2...@reader2.panix.com>,

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
>> in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg.
>
>My impression is that his intention was to *discourage* at-con votes
>for Winnipeg as a lost cause which would merely waste the voters'
>money and siphon that money directly to China.
>
>Of course this wouldn't discourage at-con votes *for* China; quite
>the opposite. The fact that there were so few such votes is strong
>evidence that there was very little support for China among people
>who attend Worldcons.

Who attend Worldcons in the United States, which is exactly
as far from nations that are not the US as those nations are
from the US. On top of which, the US is seen by many as an
unsafe place to enter and visit.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/8/22 9:04 PM, James Nicoll wrote:

> Who attend Worldcons in the United States, which is exactly
> as far from nations that are not the US as those nations are
> from the US. On top of which, the US is seen by many as an
> unsafe place to enter and visit.

Nine of the Worldcons to date in the 21st century have been held outside
the US, including one in Australia and one in Japan.

[James Nicoll]

In article <tcto3h$1dcp6$1...@dont-email.me>,

The con at which Chengdu won site selection was in Washington, DC,
traditionally considered to be in the US.

[Peter Trei]

Source? Wikipedia,tells me that the PLA has about 2M active, and about 500k
Reserves. The US population is near 340M.

Pt

[Tim Merrigan]

My memory from news and other reports over the years.

[Peter Trei]

It doesn't pass the smell test. That would be over 20% of the population. Only North Korea
is that militarized, with 30% if you count reserves, and only 5% active duty.

Pt