PFLP assassination of Israeli government minister
David Joseph Greenbaum
Just reported on NPR and on BBC shortwave, the Israeli Minister for
Tourism, Rehavam Ze'evi, who was an MK for National Union-Yisroel
Baytaynu (We are building the land of Israel), was assassinated in the
Hyatt in East Jerusalem. The Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine has claimed responsibility for the murder, in retaliation for
Israeli "targeted killings" of Islamic militants.
National Union-Yisroel Beiteinu was one of the right-most parties in the
Knesset, with seven MK's. Ironically, Rehavam Ze'evi and his
ministerial partner, Infrastructure Minister Avigdor Lieberman,
announced their resignations from Sharon's national unity government
yesterday, effective Wednesday (today) afternoon, as the NU-YB faction
was withdrawing its support for the government. The NU-YB felt that
Sharon was kowtowing to Peres and the left-wing of Avoda in permitting
Peres to meet with Arafat, and was in general hewing to Oslo and far too
soft on Arafat.
The only right-wing party in Knesset outside of Sharon's coalition
before the withdrawal of NU-YB was the National Religious Party.
Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
Dave G.
--
One of the more popular cuts: pressed shank braised with smoker's
phlegm. It may take a few tries to get Uncle Hank to hack up enough
Lucky sauce, so be patient.
David Joseph Greenbaum
in fleeting electrons:
>
>Just reported on NPR and on BBC shortwave, the Israeli Minister for
>Tourism, Rehavam Ze'evi, who was an MK for National Union-Yisroel
>Baytaynu (We are building the land of Israel), was assassinated in the
>Hyatt in East Jerusalem. The Popular Front for the Liberation of
>Palestine has claimed responsibility for the murder, in retaliation for
>Israeli "targeted killings" of Islamic militants.
To add information
>PFLP: Assassination to Avenge Israeli Killing of Mustafa
>(IsraelNationalNews.com) The fax sent by the PFLP organization claiming
>responsibility for the assassination of Minister Rechavam Ze’evi stated
>the murder was to avenge Israel’s killing of PFLP general secretary Abu
>Ali Mustafa, in his Ramallah office in September.
>Two air-to-surface missiles were fired from an air force Cobra
>helicopter gunship into the Ramallah office of Popular Front for the
>Liberation of Palestine general secretary Abu Ali Mustafa, killing him.
>Mustafa was considered the right hand of PFLP leader George Habash.
For further information, see
"http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=23" for a
précis on George Habash and the PFLP.
This is the PFLP, not the PFLP-General Command (headed by Achmad
Jibril).
Nancy Lebovitz
David Joseph Greenbaum <dj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>Just reported on NPR and on BBC shortwave, the Israeli Minister for
>Tourism, Rehavam Ze'evi, who was an MK for National Union-Yisroel
>Baytaynu (We are building the land of Israel), was assassinated in the
>Hyatt in East Jerusalem. The Popular Front for the Liberation of
>Palestine has claimed responsibility for the murder, in retaliation for
>Israeli "targeted killings" of Islamic militants.
>
>National Union-Yisroel Beiteinu was one of the right-most parties in the
>Knesset, with seven MK's. Ironically, Rehavam Ze'evi and his
>ministerial partner, Infrastructure Minister Avigdor Lieberman,
>announced their resignations from Sharon's national unity government
>yesterday, effective Wednesday (today) afternoon, as the NU-YB faction
>was withdrawing its support for the government. The NU-YB felt that
>Sharon was kowtowing to Peres and the left-wing of Avoda in permitting
>Peres to meet with Arafat, and was in general hewing to Oslo and far too
>soft on Arafat.
>
>The only right-wing party in Knesset outside of Sharon's coalition
>before the withdrawal of NU-YB was the National Religious Party.
>
>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Johan Anglemark
>>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
>>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
>
>My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
>go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it? The
Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
Palestinians respond in kind?
-j
--
Johan Anglemark - http://anglemark.pp.se
Lejd av Upsala SF-sällskap - http://sfweb.dang.se
Dan Kimmel
"Johan Anglemark" <jo...@anglemark.pp.se> wrote in message
news:Xns913D7D0B81C81j...@192.9.201.2...
> My trusted friend Nancy Lebovitz wrote in msg <9qjibg$c...@netaxs.com>:
>
> >>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
> >>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
> >
> >My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
> >go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
>
> I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
> premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it?
The
> Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
> Palestinians respond in kind?
The Israelis target *known* terrorists and they retaliated by killing a
tourism official, and you don't see the difference?
Johan Anglemark
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>> I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
>> premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it?
>> The
>> Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
>> Palestinians respond in kind?
>
>The Israelis target *known* terrorists and they retaliated by killing a
>tourism official, and you don't see the difference?
Oh yes, I see the difference. I just don't see why I should be _surprised_
that they hit back.
Nancy Lebovitz
Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>"Johan Anglemark" <jo...@anglemark.pp.se> wrote in message
>news:Xns913D7D0B81C81j...@192.9.201.2...
>> My trusted friend Nancy Lebovitz wrote in msg <9qjibg$c...@netaxs.com>:
>>
>> >>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
>> >>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
>> >
>> >My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
>> >go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
>>
>> I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
>> premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it?
>The
>> Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
>> Palestinians respond in kind?
You're probably right. It's unreasonable of me, but I just wasn't braced
for one more goddamned thing happening. In fact, lots more goddamned
things are going to happen, and that one, at least, has no perceptible
connection with 9/11.
>
>The Israelis target *known* terrorists and they retaliated by killing a
>tourism official, and you don't see the difference?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>My trusted friend Nancy Lebovitz wrote in msg <9qjibg$c...@netaxs.com>:
>
>>>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
>>>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
>>
>>My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
>>go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
>
>I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
>premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it? The
>Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
>Palestinians respond in kind?
Those "big shots" are, by in large, perpetuating terrorist attacks on
Israel. So, what is Israel supposed to do? Ignore the attacks?
Reoccupy _all_ the land now under control of the Palestinian Authority
and Lebanon to boot, and enforce order there? Arafat certainly won't
stop the terrorists in his midst, so what is Israel supposed to do?
It strikes me that Israel policy of "targeted responses" is both just
and proportionate. Once we finish with the Taliban and El Queda as
well as Iraq, I think we should give the Palestinians a hard, brutal
choice: stop the terrorism, or accept Israeli governance, and all that
entails. Then, if they do stop the terrorism, give them a square
deal.
--
Pete McCutchen
Alter S. Reiss
"Pete McCutchen" <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ec8ostckrisckvm2j...@4ax.com...
(. . .)
> It strikes me that Israel policy of "targeted responses" is both just
> and proportionate. Once we finish with the Taliban and El Queda as
> well as Iraq, I think we should give the Palestinians a hard, brutal
> choice: stop the terrorism, or accept Israeli governance, and all that
> entails. Then, if they do stop the terrorism, give them a square
> deal.
And if they decide not to do either, then what?
--
October 2001, Alter S. Reiss
"Or, alternatively, being attacked by a squid."
Pete McCutchen
<alter...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>"Pete McCutchen" <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:ec8ostckrisckvm2j...@4ax.com...
>
>(. . .)
>
>> It strikes me that Israel policy of "targeted responses" is both just
>> and proportionate. Once we finish with the Taliban and El Queda as
>> well as Iraq, I think we should give the Palestinians a hard, brutal
>> choice: stop the terrorism, or accept Israeli governance, and all that
>> entails. Then, if they do stop the terrorism, give them a square
>> deal.
>
> And if they decide not to do either, then what?
Israel moves in and governs.
--
Pete McCutchen
Alter S. Reiss
Israel really doesn't want to do that. That's what Israel had been
doing from 67 until the nineties. It wasn't just US pressure that made them
stop doing that -- it was a shot at ending the constant, low level attacks.
Israelis, almost universally, don't want to put up with another thirty years
of intifada; I don't think that the US could give them enough to change
their minds about that.
However, I'd bet that most Israelis would be willing to accept American
governance of the Territories. Want to try that?
Dan Kimmel
"Alter S. Reiss" <alter...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:9qk79h$oje71$1...@ID-72420.news.dfncis.de...
Or we could try to create a Palestinian homeland somewhere else, say in
Mississippi. I don't know why Israel should give up land for that purpose.
It's not like the Arabs were interested in doing so when THEY held the
territories from 1948 to 1967, or did much to get the Palestinians out of
the refugee camps at ANY time in the past fifty plus years.
It's time to face reality: beating up on Israel is good policy for the Arab
states because it directs the anger of the masses away from those in power.
Otherwise, they don't give a damn for Arafat or his cause.
Keith Thompson
[...]
> It strikes me that Israel policy of "targeted responses" is both just
> and proportionate. Once we finish with the Taliban and El Queda as
> well as Iraq, I think we should give the Palestinians a hard, brutal
> choice: stop the terrorism, or accept Israeli governance, and all that
> entails. Then, if they do stop the terrorism, give them a square
> deal.
AYKB, nothing is simple. I'm not convinced it's even possible for
"the Palestinians" to stop the terrorism. I put the phrase in quotes
because it's not entirely clear who "the Palestinians" are, or that
they can meaningfully act in concert. To whom do we issue the demand?
The current leadership? The entire Palestinian population?
Probably the Palestinian Authority can and should do more to stop
terrorism by Palestinians. In fact, Arafat has ordered his security
forces to find and arrest the killers, according to
<http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html>.
Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
can't accomplish anything.
I don't mean this as a trick question, or even as an implied
disagreement with what you wrote. I don't know myself what a
plausible answer might be. It's even possible that there is none.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) k...@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Cxiuj via bazo apartenas ni.
Pete McCutchen
<alter...@msn.com> wrote:
>> > And if they decide not to do either, then what?
>>
>> Israel moves in and governs.
>
> Israel really doesn't want to do that. That's what Israel had been
>doing from 67 until the nineties. It wasn't just US pressure that made them
>stop doing that -- it was a shot at ending the constant, low level attacks.
>Israelis, almost universally, don't want to put up with another thirty years
>of intifada; I don't think that the US could give them enough to change
>their minds about that.
> However, I'd bet that most Israelis would be willing to accept American
>governance of the Territories. Want to try that?
Turkey. I think maybe we should give the Palestinian Mandate to
Turkey. Though they might have their hands full with what used to be
Iraq. Besides, Israel is going to have its hands full with Zimbabwe.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
>Probably the Palestinian Authority can and should do more to stop
>terrorism by Palestinians. In fact, Arafat has ordered his security
>forces to find and arrest the killers, according to
><http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html>.
Yes. I suspect that Arafat didn't sanction this hit. He let the
genie out of the bottle, but this particular aspect of it he doesn't
like.
>
>Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
>discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
>and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
>the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
>whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
>Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
>do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
>can't accomplish anything.
OK, I'll answer you. Note that, while my end goal is to end up with a
liberal democracy called "Palestine," I may have to do a few illiberal
things along the way.
First, I call Bush and Sharon and persuade them to have another
meeting at Camp David. With respect to Israel, I put on the table a
settlement offer similar to the one Barak either did or did not offer
me the last time we were here. I want as much as I can from Israel,
but the most important thing is to get a deal. I'm a pretty good
negotiator, and, even if Sharon is a hardass, I think I can get a
fairly reasonable one.
But I want more. First of all, I explain to both Sharon and Bush that
my people are not ready for democracy. If we had a democratic state
tomorrow, they'd vote me out and vote in some asshole who would undo
my deal and try to destroy Israel. _I_ understand that living next to
the most advanced country in the Middle East will be good for my
people, but some people don't. So, for the next ten or fifteen years,
I get to rule by decree, and both the US and Israel are going to
overlook my occassional human rights violation.
Then I give to Sharon my Little Black Book which has the names and
addresses of every terrorist leader that I know of, who is located
either in Palestine or Lebanon. I don't want them rotting in some
prison, while their sympathizers hijack airplanes and take hostages to
get them free; I want them dead. But I can't do it, so I want the
Mossad to do it for me, in a relatively short period of time. I want
a Night of the Long Knives. I'm going to bitch and moan a bit when it
happens, and condemn the Zionist oppressors, but, in reality, I'll be
happy about it. My own security forces will suffice to keep the
problem in check thereafter.
I explain to Bush and Sharon that, if we're going to make this peace
thing work, I have to have an economically prosperous country. If
we're poor while the Israelis aren't, it's going to cause friction.
So I want free trade agreements with both Israel and, the United
States. Israel because it's my closest neighbor and the it has the
best economy in the region; the US because it's, well, the United
States. World's biggest economy, and all that. And I want the US to
give tax breaks to US companies that invest in Palestine. I want a
bit of aid, but not for any Big Project. Mostly I want to use it to
defray the cost of my government, because I want very low taxes. I'll
hire Milton Friedman to advise me on my economic policy and Richard
Epstein to write my legal code. (OK, maybe I won't mention them in
the press releases. I'll do it quietly.)
As I said, my goal is to end up with a liberal democracy, but, for the
present, I'm going to be pretty authoritarian. My people are going to
have near-total economic liberty, within the framework of a night
watchman state, but I'm going to crack down pretty hard on political
dissent, particularly if it shades over into opposition to Israel. It
goes without saying that terrorists are going to really get cracked
down upon.
The first step to developing a liberal democracy is getting a legal
code (which Professor Epstein is secretly advising me on) and judges
who are rock solid. Property and contract rights are going to
enforced from the get-go, and I'll do everything I can to put in
sophisticated banking, corporations, and securities laws.
Sophisticated, but very business-friendly.
Now I turn to education reform. Out goes the antisemitic propaganda.
No, we don't try to make the kids love Jews, at least not at first.
But outright hate propaganda is eliminated. I want some aid from the
US on this, but please, no educrats. The curriculum isn't going to go
much into politics, mostly concentrating on subjects that will make
them productive citizens. Start with giving the kids with a solid
grounding in math and science, as well as languages -- from the first
day of pre-school, they learn to speak and write in Arabic, Hebrew,
and English. Somewhat older kids get neoclassical microeconomics and
public choice theory. Start 'em on that around, say, ten or so.
David Friedman will help me on that one, I'm sure. (Though again, I
won't mention his name.) I strongly encourage cultural exchanges with
the US. I'm sure President Bush will be happy to help me on that one,
as well.
After about ten or fifteen years, my country is richer than Hong Kong,
but in no danger of being annexed by China. I draft the perfect
constitution, tripartite legislature and all, and we transition to
full-fledged democracy. After being elected our first elected
President, I serve one term and then leave public life, to spend my
waning years basking in the glow of the world's esteem, and writing my
memoirs, so as to win a second Nobel Prize, this time for literature.
(Do they offer second awards for the Peace Prize? If I pull this off,
I deserve it.) Plus, I can sit around in my study, and contemplate
the stuffed corpses of the legion of failed assassins who tried to
bump me off, somewhere along this long and winding road to Libertaria.
OK, you asked me what I would do. Is it realistic? Well, Lord Kalvan
could probably do it.
>
>I don't mean this as a trick question, or even as an implied
>disagreement with what you wrote. I don't know myself what a
>plausible answer might be. It's even possible that there is none.
Of course there is. See above.
--
Pete McCutchen
Brett Paul Dunbar
Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes
Ze'evi wasn't an official, he was a Cabinet minister who happened to
hold the tourism portfolio, presumably Sharon had put him somewhere he
couldn't do much harm, as he was, by any standards, a far right
extremist. He openly advocated policies such as ethnic cleansing of the
Gaza strip and West Bank.
Due to Israeli assassinations of a number of Palestinian politicians, I
was expecting one of the more extreme Palestinian terrorist groups to
retaliate by killing a right wing member of the Israeli Cabinet, so I
was frankly unsurprised when it happened, although saddened, and Ze'evi
does seem to have been a particularly likely candidate.
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Brett Paul Dunbar
Mark Atwood
>
> Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
> discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
> and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
> the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
> whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
> Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
> do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
> can't accomplish anything.
This actually sounds like it could be an interesting Infocom game.
Does anyone remember the old Windows 2.0 game "Balance Of Power"?
--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Mark Atwood
> I'll hire Milton Friedman to advise me on my economic policy and
> Richard Epstein to write my legal code. (OK, maybe I won't mention
> them in the press releases. I'll do it quietly.)
And DeSoto to set up the property law regeme and manage the setting up
of title deed register and business licensing.
Mark Atwood
condemn the Zionist oppressors, but, in reality, I'll be
> happy about it. My own security forces will suffice to keep the
> problem in check thereafter.
> watchman state, but I'm going to crack down pretty hard on political
> dissent, particularly if it shades over into opposition to Israel. It
> goes without saying that terrorists are going to really get cracked
> down upon.
> Now I turn to education reform. Out goes the antisemitic propaganda.
> No, we don't try to make the kids love Jews, at least not at first.
> But outright hate propaganda is eliminated. I want some aid from the
> US on this, but please, no educrats. The curriculum isn't going to go
> much into politics, mostly concentrating on subjects that will make
> them productive citizens. Start with giving the kids with a solid
> grounding in math and science, as well as languages -- from the first
> day of pre-school, they learn to speak and write in Arabic, Hebrew,
> and English.
> After about ten or fifteen years, my country is richer than Hong Kong,
> but in no danger of being annexed by China.
The rest of the Islamic World is going to go to war against you.
David T. Bilek
>Keith Thompson <k...@cts.com> writes:
>>
>> Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
>> discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
>> and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
>> the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
>> whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
>> Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
>> do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
>> can't accomplish anything.
>
>This actually sounds like it could be an interesting Infocom game.
>
>Does anyone remember the old Windows 2.0 game "Balance Of Power"?
>
Sure: Chris Crawford rocks. You could play it without using Windows,
I think, but I don't remember how. I was 11 at the time, so I hope I
can be forgiven. The two games I most wanted to see a modern version
of (before I got CTS) were Starflight and Balance of Power.
Coincidently enough, given recent events, I almost always ended up
destroying the planet over Afghanistan.
Lets hope Dubya does better than 11-year-old me.
-David
("Our reply is headed over the North Pole")
Alter S. Reiss
> On 17 Oct 2001 16:49:09 -0700, Keith Thompson <k...@cts.com> wrote:
(. . .)
> >
> >Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
> >discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
> >and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
> >the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
> >whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
> >Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
> >do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
> >can't accomplish anything.
>
> OK, I'll answer you. Note that, while my end goal is to end up with a
> liberal democracy called "Palestine," I may have to do a few illiberal
> things along the way.
>
> First, I call Bush and Sharon and persuade them to have another
> meeting at Camp David.
Not going to happen. Sharon's government has been having defections on
the far right because he agreed to let Peres talk to Arafat. Sharon isn't
going to a summit unless Arafat can deliver a cease fire that will last for
more than the three or four hours that the last couple have.
> With respect to Israel, I put on the table a
> settlement offer similar to the one Barak either did or did not offer
> me the last time we were here. I want as much as I can from Israel,
> but the most important thing is to get a deal. I'm a pretty good
> negotiator, and, even if Sharon is a hardass, I think I can get a
> fairly reasonable one.
If Arafat were to take a deal that is equivalent to what Barak put on
the table today, he'd be dead tomorrow. The Palestinians have not, as a
group, really enjoyed the last year or so, and they're not going to accept
getting nothing out it. There are large and popular groups opposed to peace
with Israel, and if Arafat took that deal he couldn't even count on the
support of his own faction.
> But I want more. First of all, I explain to both Sharon and Bush that
> my people are not ready for democracy. If we had a democratic state
> tomorrow, they'd vote me out and vote in some asshole who would undo
> my deal and try to destroy Israel. _I_ understand that living next to
> the most advanced country in the Middle East will be good for my
> people, but some people don't. So, for the next ten or fifteen years,
> I get to rule by decree, and both the US and Israel are going to
> overlook my occassional human rights violation.
Bear in mind the fact that you have Parkinson's, and you've had it for a
while. Don't make any plans that involve you living for another fifteen
years.
>
> Then I give to Sharon my Little Black Book which has the names and
> addresses of every terrorist leader that I know of, who is located
> either in Palestine or Lebanon. I don't want them rotting in some
> prison, while their sympathizers hijack airplanes and take hostages to
> get them free; I want them dead. But I can't do it, so I want the
> Mossad to do it for me, in a relatively short period of time. I want
> a Night of the Long Knives. I'm going to bitch and moan a bit when it
> happens, and condemn the Zionist oppressors, but, in reality, I'll be
> happy about it. My own security forces will suffice to keep the
> problem in check thereafter.
A number of names on that list have wide popular support. Kill two of
them at once, and there will be mass insurection. Kill all of them, and
it's war with most of the Arab world. These aren't isolated loonies --
these are the heads of the largest political factions in Palestine.
(. . .)
Dan Kimmel
"Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tTIXwHPz...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk...
Israel has not engaged in any "assassinations of a number of Palestinian
politicians." They have targeted actual *terrorists.* These were people
who did things like setting off bombs at crowded discotheques or busy
marketplaces. To compare that in any way with shooting some politician
whose views you find odious is pretty odious itself.
I know it's polite in some circles to see this as "tit for tat" violence,
but that's only by people who don't follow what is actually going on in the
Middle East.
Dan Kimmel
>
> >Probably the Palestinian Authority can and should do more to stop
> >terrorism by Palestinians. In fact, Arafat has ordered his security
> >forces to find and arrest the killers, according to
> ><http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/index.html>.
>
> Yes. I suspect that Arafat didn't sanction this hit. He let the
> genie out of the bottle, but this particular aspect of it he doesn't
> like.
No doubt, but when you permit all manner of terrorist violence and run
propaganda demonizing Israel in your media, you have to expect that some
factions are going to up the ante. This is a logical outcome of
Palestinian Authority policy that has made it clear for more than a year
that they have no interest in a peaceful resolution or, indeed, in
co-existance with Israel.
> >
> >Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
> >discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
> >and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
> >the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
> >whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
> >Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
> >do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
> >can't accomplish anything.
>
> OK, I'll answer you. Note that, while my end goal is to end up with a
> liberal democracy called "Palestine," I may have to do a few illiberal
> things along the way.
>
> First, I call Bush and Sharon and persuade them to have another
> meeting at Camp David. With respect to Israel, I put on the table a
> settlement offer similar to the one Barak either did or did not offer
> me the last time we were here. I want as much as I can from Israel,
> but the most important thing is to get a deal. I'm a pretty good
> negotiator, and, even if Sharon is a hardass, I think I can get a
> fairly reasonable one.
Sounds reasonsable, but it begs the question: Arafat *had* that offer on the
table. He didn't negotiate. He didn't counteroffer. He walked out and
launched the current intifada.
Some of your either ideas were interesting and/or provocative, but alas your
premise -- that Arafat wants to eventually preside over a prosperous,
democratic Palestine -- has no connection with reality.
Shane Stezelberger
Greenbaum) wrote:
>This is the PFLP, not the PFLP-General Command (headed by Achmad
>Jibril).
Thanks. I'm forever getting the two confused.
--
Shane Stezelberger
sstezel at erols dot kom
Laurel, MD
Niall McAuley
>This is the PFLP, not the PFLP-General Command (headed by Achmad
>Jibril).
Splitter!
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]
David G. Bell
<3bce61c9...@nntp.we.mediaone.net> dbi...@mediaone.net
"David T. Bilek" wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2001 21:47:59 -0700, Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Keith Thompson <k...@cts.com> writes:
> >>
> >> Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
> >> discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
> >> and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
> >> the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
> >> whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
> >> Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
> >> do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
> >> can't accomplish anything.
> >
> >This actually sounds like it could be an interesting Infocom game.
> >
> >Does anyone remember the old Windows 2.0 game "Balance Of Power"?
> >
>
> Sure: Chris Crawford rocks. You could play it without using Windows,
> I think, but I don't remember how. I was 11 at the time, so I hope I
> can be forgiven. The two games I most wanted to see a modern version
> of (before I got CTS) were Starflight and Balance of Power.
Starflight was interesting, not too complicated an economic/logistic
side to things. Just like Elite, it would maybe be a little too easy to
make a modern version too tricky all around.
What would be interesting would be a network-play version of that sort
of game, perhaps with the possibility that hyperspace jumps use more
fuel the shorter time they take, so you can start a jump and go to bed,
or burn obscene quantities of fuel (and engine life) and just have time
a brew a fresh supply of Qafi.
I used to be in a PBM game that ran more-or-less in real time. One day
real time was one year game time (STL starships in a star cluster, and
light-speed lag on your sensors). There could be a big problem with
out-of-game communication, but that sort of daily-turn game might work
fairly well.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
The singer who is no longer, and no shorter, than he was last week. He's
about the same length in his stocking moolies.
Pete McCutchen
>Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> I'll hire Milton Friedman to advise me on my economic policy and
>> Richard Epstein to write my legal code. (OK, maybe I won't mention
>> them in the press releases. I'll do it quietly.)
>
>And DeSoto to set up the property law regeme and manage the setting up
>of title deed register and business licensing.
Of course. Hernando I can credit publicly, because his name alone
won't cause outrage among my more reactionary elements.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
<dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Sounds reasonsable, but it begs the question: Arafat *had* that offer on the
>table. He didn't negotiate. He didn't counteroffer. He walked out and
>launched the current intifada.
Dan, I'm on your side on this one. Really. I think that the
Palestinians have some legitimate grievances, but I also think that
they could have gotten them settled via negotiations. They haven't,
because, by-in-large, they don't want peace. They want victory --
which means they want the destruction of Israel. Kevin claims that
Barak's offer was less tangible than is often supposed, and that
Arafat didn't really have the offer quite on the table, but, even so,
Arafat broke his promise -- made at Oslo -- to settle disputes via
negotiations and instead launched the intifada. I think he probably
could have had a good deal, if he'd wanted it. He chose war instead.
_I_ think it's because he doesn't really want a deal.
>
>Some of your either ideas were interesting and/or provocative, but alas your
>premise -- that Arafat wants to eventually preside over a prosperous,
>democratic Palestine -- has no connection with reality.
No, that was the premise of the question. "Imagine you are Arafat,"
my interlocutor asked. _I'd_ rather have a democratic, prosperous
Palestine, rather than fight a continual low-level war with Israel.
Arafat has different preferences. Plus, he's a Marxist, so he'd fuck
up his country if he had one. I'd turn it into Hong Kong.
--
Pete McCutchen
Michael J. Lowrey
>
> Keith Thompson <k...@cts.com> writes:
> > Here's a thought experiment. You wake up tomorrow morning and
> > discover that you are Yasser Arafat. You have all of his knowledge
> > and capabilities as well as your own. Your goal is peace; interpret
> > the word as you like, but it's not just the absence of war. Assume
> > whatever secondary goals you like (a Palestinian state, security for
> > Israel, access to holy sites for all, democracy, etc.) What do you
> > do? Note that if you alienate enough of your own constituency, you
> > can't accomplish anything.
>
> This actually sounds like it could be an interesting Infocom game.
The closest analogy I can think of is JUNTA.
> Does anyone remember the old Windows 2.0 game "Balance Of Power"?
That came for Windows? I only saw and played it on the
Mac.
Great game. If you played the U.S., the assumptions were
all stacked pro-Soviet; if you played the U.S.S.R., the
assumptions were all stacked pro-American. I usually
managed to avoid nuclear holocaust.
--
Michael J. Lowrey
Kevin J. Maroney
<br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Ze'evi wasn't an official, he was a Cabinet minister who happened to
>hold the tourism portfolio, presumably Sharon had put him somewhere he
>couldn't do much harm, as he was, by any standards, a far right
>extremist. He openly advocated policies such as ethnic cleansing of the
>Gaza strip and West Bank.
>
>Due to Israeli assassinations of a number of Palestinian politicians, I
>was expecting one of the more extreme Palestinian terrorist groups to
>retaliate by killing a right wing member of the Israeli Cabinet, so I
>was frankly unsurprised when it happened, although saddened, and Ze'evi
>does seem to have been a particularly likely candidate.
It is worth emphasizing that this assassination was a horrible act
even as it was completely unsurprising. There are major elements
within the Palestinian population who don't want the peace process to
proceed, and who see assassination and terror as a great tool for
blocking it.
Note that this is the first time an Israel minister has been
assassinated to block the peace process since Rabin.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Kevin J. Maroney
<p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Kevin claims that
>Barak's offer was less tangible than is often supposed,
I made no such claim that I am aware of. What I quoted from the NYROB
article was that *Arafat* saw the offer as less tangible than it
probably was because it was wrapped up with a bunch of new Israeli
violations of the Oslo accords.
I'm glad to see that you're reading other people's arguments closely.
Dan Kimmel
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:54:40 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
> <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Sounds reasonsable, but it begs the question: Arafat *had* that offer on
the
> >table. He didn't negotiate. He didn't counteroffer. He walked out and
> >launched the current intifada.
>
> Dan, I'm on your side on this one. Really. I think that the
> Palestinians have some legitimate grievances, but I also think that
> they could have gotten them settled via negotiations. They haven't,
> because, by-in-large, they don't want peace. They want victory --
> which means they want the destruction of Israel. Kevin claims that
> Barak's offer was less tangible than is often supposed, and that
> Arafat didn't really have the offer quite on the table, but, even so,
> Arafat broke his promise -- made at Oslo -- to settle disputes via
> negotiations and instead launched the intifada. I think he probably
> could have had a good deal, if he'd wanted it. He chose war instead.
> _I_ think it's because he doesn't really want a deal.
And, to be fair, because he doesn't want to die. Because he has utterly
failed to prepare his people for peace, if he took any moves toward an
actual settlement, he would be a marked man.
Abba Eban's pithy quote is as true as ever: the Palestinians have never
missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Jo Walton
p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net "Pete McCutchen" writes:
> Turkey. I think maybe we should give the Palestinian Mandate to
> Turkey.
What makes you think they'd be any better than they are with their own
Kurdish minority? Or their Greek minority?
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now *THE KING'S NAME* out in November from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Mark Atwood
>
> It is worth emphasizing that this assassination was a horrible act
> even as it was completely unsurprising. There are major elements
> within the Palestinian population who don't want the peace process to
> proceed, and who see assassination and terror as a great tool for
> blocking it.
Are their *any* elements larger than individual people who have learned
to keep their head down and their mouths shut who *do* want the "peace
process" to actually proceed?
Brett Paul Dunbar
<p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes
With European help you should ultimately be able to get a phased Israeli
withdrawal to the 1967 borders. I don't think anything less is going to
be acceptable to the Palestinians in the long term, and that has been
the position of most European governments for a long time.
>
>But I want more. First of all, I explain to both Sharon and Bush that
>my people are not ready for democracy. If we had a democratic state
>tomorrow, they'd vote me out and vote in some asshole who would undo
>my deal and try to destroy Israel. _I_ understand that living next to
>the most advanced country in the Middle East will be good for my
>people, but some people don't. So, for the next ten or fifteen years,
>I get to rule by decree, and both the US and Israel are going to
>overlook my occassional human rights violation.
>
>Then I give to Sharon my Little Black Book which has the names and
>addresses of every terrorist leader that I know of, who is located
>either in Palestine or Lebanon.
That'll get you Assassinated, and cause civil war, which is one of the
reasons Arafat will never be able to do it.
> I don't want them rotting in some
>prison, while their sympathizers hijack airplanes and take hostages to
>get them free; I want them dead. But I can't do it, so I want the
>Mossad to do it for me, in a relatively short period of time. I want
>a Night of the Long Knives. I'm going to bitch and moan a bit when it
>happens, and condemn the Zionist oppressors, but, in reality, I'll be
>happy about it. My own security forces will suffice to keep the
>problem in check thereafter.
Not that you'll be around to worry about it, being dead.
>Now I turn to education reform. Out goes the antisemitic propaganda.
>No, we don't try to make the kids love Jews, at least not at first.
>But outright hate propaganda is eliminated. I want some aid from the
>US on this, but please, no educrats. The curriculum isn't going to go
>much into politics, mostly concentrating on subjects that will make
>them productive citizens. Start with giving the kids with a solid
>grounding in math and science, as well as languages -- from the first
>day of pre-school, they learn to speak and write in Arabic, Hebrew,
>and English. Somewhat older kids get neoclassical microeconomics and
>public choice theory.
The problem with neo-classical economics is that it is dogmatic and, in
several aspects, just plain wrong, the economy does not behave the way
neo-classical dogma claims it must. Virtually every major central bank
has switched to neo-Keynesian policies, this was then followed by a
prolonged period of sustained growth with low inflation Japan persisted
with neo-classical approach, and has had a a deep and prolonged
depression, the only period of significant growth in the last decade
coming when a neo-Keynesian policy was briefly adopted, and ending when
Japan reverted to a neo-classical policy.
> Start 'em on that around, say, ten or so.
>David Friedman will help me on that one, I'm sure. (Though again, I
>won't mention his name.) I strongly encourage cultural exchanges with
>the US. I'm sure President Bush will be happy to help me on that one,
>as well.
>
>After about ten or fifteen years, my country is richer than Hong Kong,
>but in no danger of being annexed by China. I draft the perfect
>constitution, tripartite legislature and all, and we transition to
>full-fledged democracy. After being elected our first elected
>President, I serve one term and then leave public life, to spend my
>waning years basking in the glow of the world's esteem, and writing my
>memoirs, so as to win a second Nobel Prize, this time for literature.
>(Do they offer second awards for the Peace Prize? If I pull this off,
>I deserve it.) Plus, I can sit around in my study, and contemplate
>the stuffed corpses of the legion of failed assassins who tried to
>bump me off, somewhere along this long and winding road to Libertaria.
>
>OK, you asked me what I would do. Is it realistic?
No, the economics are just plain wrong for a start, and the politics
absurd.
Brett Paul Dunbar
>
>"Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:tTIXwHPz...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <qxdz7.142594$W8.34...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>> Due to Israeli assassinations of a number of Palestinian politicians, I
>> was expecting one of the more extreme Palestinian terrorist groups to
>> retaliate by killing a right wing member of the Israeli Cabinet, so I
>> was frankly unsurprised when it happened, although saddened, and Ze'evi
>> does seem to have been a particularly likely candidate.
>
>Israel has not engaged in any "assassinations of a number of Palestinian
>politicians." They have targeted actual *terrorists.* These were people
>who did things like setting off bombs at crowded discotheques or busy
>marketplaces. To compare that in any way with shooting some politician
>whose views you find odious is pretty odious itself.
You may not see killing one of the political leaders of the PFLP as an
assassination but the PFLP certainly did, along with a large proportion
of the Palestinian population. Whatever you call it the policy was an
act of utterly reckless stupidity on the part of the Israeli government,
given that it was nearly inevitable that they would respond in kind (in
their view anyway).
>
>I know it's polite in some circles to see this as "tit for tat" violence,
>but that's only by people who don't follow what is actually going on in the
>Middle East.
Dan Kimmel
> In message <Pxyz7.144008$W8.35...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes
> >
> >"Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:tTIXwHPz...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk...
> >> In message
<qxdz7.142594$W8.34...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> >> Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>
> >> Due to Israeli assassinations of a number of Palestinian politicians, I
> >> was expecting one of the more extreme Palestinian terrorist groups to
> >> retaliate by killing a right wing member of the Israeli Cabinet, so I
> >> was frankly unsurprised when it happened, although saddened, and Ze'evi
> >> does seem to have been a particularly likely candidate.
> >
> >Israel has not engaged in any "assassinations of a number of Palestinian
> >politicians." They have targeted actual *terrorists.* These were people
> >who did things like setting off bombs at crowded discotheques or busy
> >marketplaces. To compare that in any way with shooting some politician
> >whose views you find odious is pretty odious itself.
>
> You may not see killing one of the political leaders of the PFLP as an
> assassination but the PFLP certainly did, along with a large proportion
> of the Palestinian population. Whatever you call it the policy was an
> act of utterly reckless stupidity on the part of the Israeli government,
> given that it was nearly inevitable that they would respond in kind (in
> their view anyway).
So what should Israel do to the people who blow up pizzarias and
schoolbuses, pin medals on them? To call a terrorist thug a "political
leader" is to create an utterly false moral equivalency between the two
sides.
Pete McCutchen
<br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Then I give to Sharon my Little Black Book which has the names and
>>addresses of every terrorist leader that I know of, who is located
>>either in Palestine or Lebanon.
>
>That'll get you Assassinated, and cause civil war, which is one of the
>reasons Arafat will never be able to do it.
I think my comment at the end made it clear that I know that.
>
>> I don't want them rotting in some
>>prison, while their sympathizers hijack airplanes and take hostages to
>>get them free; I want them dead. But I can't do it, so I want the
>>Mossad to do it for me, in a relatively short period of time. I want
>>a Night of the Long Knives. I'm going to bitch and moan a bit when it
>>happens, and condemn the Zionist oppressors, but, in reality, I'll be
>>happy about it. My own security forces will suffice to keep the
>>problem in check thereafter.
>
>Not that you'll be around to worry about it, being dead.
Good thing I'm not Arafat, then!
>
>>Now I turn to education reform. Out goes the antisemitic propaganda.
>>No, we don't try to make the kids love Jews, at least not at first.
>>But outright hate propaganda is eliminated. I want some aid from the
>>US on this, but please, no educrats. The curriculum isn't going to go
>>much into politics, mostly concentrating on subjects that will make
>>them productive citizens. Start with giving the kids with a solid
>>grounding in math and science, as well as languages -- from the first
>>day of pre-school, they learn to speak and write in Arabic, Hebrew,
>>and English. Somewhat older kids get neoclassical microeconomics and
>>public choice theory.
>
>The problem with neo-classical economics is that it is dogmatic and, in
>several aspects, just plain wrong, the economy does not behave the way
>neo-classical dogma claims it must. Virtually every major central bank
>has switched to neo-Keynesian policies, this was then followed by a
>prolonged period of sustained growth with low inflation Japan persisted
>with neo-classical approach, and has had a a deep and prolonged
>depression, the only period of significant growth in the last decade
>coming when a neo-Keynesian policy was briefly adopted, and ending when
>Japan reverted to a neo-classical policy.
I said _microeconomics_, not _macroeconomics_. Monetary policy is
about macro, not micro. Neoclassical microeconomics is basically
right. Macro is something about which we know much less. Central
bankers act as much on instinct as they do on theory. Of course,
Keynes continues to be influential, but so too are the monetarists.
The claim that Japan oscillated from neo-classical to neo-Keynsian
policies and back is not particularly accurate, but, in any case, I
think it's clear that Japan's policies go deeper than monetary policy.
In particular, they've got real demographic problems, and their
banking system needs some serious work.
>
>> Start 'em on that around, say, ten or so.
>>David Friedman will help me on that one, I'm sure. (Though again, I
>>won't mention his name.) I strongly encourage cultural exchanges with
>>the US. I'm sure President Bush will be happy to help me on that one,
>>as well.
>>
>>After about ten or fifteen years, my country is richer than Hong Kong,
>>but in no danger of being annexed by China. I draft the perfect
>>constitution, tripartite legislature and all, and we transition to
>>full-fledged democracy. After being elected our first elected
>>President, I serve one term and then leave public life, to spend my
>>waning years basking in the glow of the world's esteem, and writing my
>>memoirs, so as to win a second Nobel Prize, this time for literature.
>>(Do they offer second awards for the Peace Prize? If I pull this off,
>>I deserve it.) Plus, I can sit around in my study, and contemplate
>>the stuffed corpses of the legion of failed assassins who tried to
>>bump me off, somewhere along this long and winding road to Libertaria.
>>
>>OK, you asked me what I would do. Is it realistic?
>
>No, the economics are just plain wrong for a start, and the politics
>absurd.
No, the economics are right, but the politics absurd.
--
Pete McCutchen
Doug Wickstrom
<36mBaEBJ...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>
Brett Paul Dunbar <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> excited the
ether to say:
>The problem with neo-classical economics is that it is dogmatic and, in
>several aspects, just plain wrong, the economy does not behave the way
>neo-classical dogma claims it must. Virtually every major central bank
>has switched to neo-Keynesian policies, this was then followed by a
>prolonged period of sustained growth with low inflation Japan persisted
>with neo-classical approach, and has had a a deep and prolonged
>depression, the only period of significant growth in the last decade
>coming when a neo-Keynesian policy was briefly adopted, and ending when
>Japan reverted to a neo-classical policy.
Interesting analysis of Japanese fiscal problems. Too bad it's
wrong.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Look, if you don't like my parties, you can leave in a huff. If that's
too soon, leave in a minute and a huff. If you can't find that, you can
leave in a taxi." --Groucho Marx
Tom Scudder
> In article <1ampstkb8pfras3hp...@4ax.com>
> p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net "Pete McCutchen" writes:
>
> > Turkey. I think maybe we should give the Palestinian Mandate to
> > Turkey.
>
> What makes you think they'd be any better than they are with their own
> Kurdish minority? Or their Greek minority?
Or, needless to say, their Armenian minority?
Tom Scudder
> Mark Atwood wrote:
> > Does anyone remember the old Windows 2.0 game "Balance Of Power"?
>
> That came for Windows? I only saw and played it on the
> Mac.
>
> Great game. If you played the U.S., the assumptions were
> all stacked pro-Soviet; if you played the U.S.S.R., the
> assumptions were all stacked pro-American. I usually
> managed to avoid nuclear holocaust.
I could win as the Soviets on "easy" level, but only because the
Americans didn't really care much if I invaded (oops, "supported the
revolutionaries in") Iran.
Pete McCutchen
<nims...@uswest.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:04:57 +0100, in message
><36mBaEBJ...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>
> Brett Paul Dunbar <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> excited the
>ether to say:
>
>>The problem with neo-classical economics is that it is dogmatic and, in
>>several aspects, just plain wrong, the economy does not behave the way
>>neo-classical dogma claims it must. Virtually every major central bank
>>has switched to neo-Keynesian policies, this was then followed by a
>>prolonged period of sustained growth with low inflation Japan persisted
>>with neo-classical approach, and has had a a deep and prolonged
>>depression, the only period of significant growth in the last decade
>>coming when a neo-Keynesian policy was briefly adopted, and ending when
>>Japan reverted to a neo-classical policy.
>
>Interesting analysis of Japanese fiscal problems. Too bad it's
>wrong.
Monetary policies. Fiscal policies have to do with government
spending. Monetary policy has to do with the central bank.
--
Pete McCutchen
Avedon Carol
<dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> You may not see killing one of the political leaders of the PFLP as an
>> assassination but the PFLP certainly did, along with a large proportion
>> of the Palestinian population. Whatever you call it the policy was an
>> act of utterly reckless stupidity on the part of the Israeli government,
>> given that it was nearly inevitable that they would respond in kind (in
>> their view anyway).
>
>So what should Israel do to the people who blow up pizzarias and
>schoolbuses, pin medals on them? To call a terrorist thug a "political
>leader" is to create an utterly false moral equivalency between the two
>sides.
Doesn't matter; if you're going to deal with the other side, you need
to know how they perceive themselves. Calling them criminals or
terrorists doesn't change how they are going to behave.
--
Avedon
"At holiday parties, Republican political operatives boasted freely about
their success in snaring the White House. A common refrain, told in a
joking style, was: 'We stole the election fair and square.'" (Robert Parry)
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>>So what should Israel do to the people who blow up pizzarias and
>>schoolbuses, pin medals on them? To call a terrorist thug a "political
>>leader" is to create an utterly false moral equivalency between the two
>>sides.
>
>Doesn't matter; if you're going to deal with the other side, you need
>to know how they perceive themselves. Calling them criminals or
>terrorists doesn't change how they are going to behave.
No, but killing them does.
--
Pete McCutchen
Margaret Young
<dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>"Johan Anglemark" <jo...@anglemark.pp.se> wrote in message
>news:Xns913D7D0B81C81j...@192.9.201.2...
>> My trusted friend Nancy Lebovitz wrote in msg <9qjibg$c...@netaxs.com>:
>>
>> >>Somebody is trying to start a war. The last time a Palestinian killed
>> >>an Israeli government official, Israel invaded Lebanon.
>> >
>> >My mind reels with paranoid hypotheses--or do people just occasionally
>> >go nuts when nothing drastic enough has happened lately?
>>
>> I don't see that at all. I see a tit-for-tat response to Israeli
>> premeditated murders of Palestinian big shots. What's so nuts about it?
>The
>> Israeli have been doing it for months, why are you so surprised that the
>> Palestinians respond in kind?
>
>The Israelis target *known* terrorists and they retaliated by killing a
>tourism official, and you don't see the difference?
>
Was this not the member of the cabinet who characterized Palestinians
as "lice". And who had just resigned because he thought the current
government was too liberal and easy on Palestinians? I got the general
impression that he was viewed as a real and powerful enemy of the
Palestinians.
Margaret
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