Fandom just the same
MIKE BLAKE
On 05/19/95 Karen Cooper mentioned
on the matter of "Re: Fandom just the same as always":
> GAR...@delphi.com comes back from The Long Sleep:
GL> One of the best times I recall was a lobbycon at the World Stf
GL> Con in Toronto (I believe in 70? 71?).
KC> 1973, I think it was.
You've been bidding for Minneapolis for that year so long you
forgot who really won. It was Australia. Toronto was 1972, DC
was 1974.
Mike Blake [Karen # Pending]
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
david....@co.hennepin.mn.us
>
>On 05/19/95 Karen Cooper mentioned
> on the matter of "Re: Fandom just the same as always":
>
> > GAR...@delphi.com comes back from The Long Sleep:
>
> GL> One of the best times I recall was a lobbycon at the World Stf
> GL> Con in Toronto (I believe in 70? 71?).
>
> KC> 1973, I think it was.
>
> You've been bidding for Minneapolis for that year so long you
> forgot who really won. It was Australia. Toronto was 1972, DC
> was 1974.
>
EXCUSE ME?!?
Toronto was my first Worldcon, so I remember it well. It _was_ 1973. Discon
was '74, Aussiecon '75.
Also, the local legend around the Mpls in '73 bid relates that the original,
serious bid was mounted out of panic, since it looked like no other good bid
was going to happen (I think that's it; I may have it slightly distorted, but that's the gist of it). When the Toronto fans announced, all of Mpls wiped the
sweat from its collective forehead and breathed a great "Whew!"
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
David Emerson Come to ReinCONation!
(one of the Minneapolis Davids) October 13-15 1995, Minneapolis
GoHs: Judith Merril, Andy Hooper
ly...@access2.digex.net
<david....@co.hennepin.mn.us> wrote:
>In <8A9F219.1ECB...@enest.com>, mike....@enest.com (MIKE BLAKE) writes:
>>
>>On 05/19/95 Karen Cooper mentioned
>> on the matter of "Re: Fandom just the same as always":
>>
>> > GAR...@delphi.com comes back from The Long Sleep:
>>
>> GL> One of the best times I recall was a lobbycon at the World Stf
>> GL> Con in Toronto (I believe in 70? 71?).
>>
>> KC> 1973, I think it was.
>>
>> You've been bidding for Minneapolis for that year so long you
>> forgot who really won. It was Australia. Toronto was 1972, DC
>> was 1974.
>>
>
>EXCUSE ME?!?
>
>Toronto was my first Worldcon, so I remember it well. It _was_ 1973. Discon
>was '74, Aussiecon '75.
>
>Also, the local legend around the Mpls in '73 bid relates that the original,
>serious bid was mounted out of panic, since it looked like no other good bid
>was going to happen (I think that's it; I may have it slightly distorted, but that's the gist of it). When the Toronto fans announced, all of Mpls wiped the
>sweat from its collective forehead and breathed a great "Whew!"
Actually, it's a lot more complicated than that, because you are leaving
out any mention of the other 1973 bid, "Big D in 73", the Dallas bid that
was chaired by the late Tom Reamy. If you can, get Joyce Scrivner to
post a "true" history of the bid, for all to see. She and I were rapt
listeners last September in Winnipeg, as Jim Young (one of the founders
of the Mpls in 73 bid) spent the better part of an hour giving a
narrative history from his point of view.
RWL
Dr Gafia
<<snip>>
>Also, the local legend around the Mpls in '73 bid relates that the
>original, serious bid was mounted out of panic, since it looked like
>no other good bid was going to happen (I think that's it; I may
>have it slightly distorted, but that's the gist of it). When the Toronto
>fans announced, all of Mpls wiped the sweat from its collective
>forehead and breathed a great "Whew!"
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
--rich brown a.k.a. Dr. Gafia
Krikket
>As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
>be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
>of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
>ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
>to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in 2073? 8^)
--
Krikket kri...@mcs.com an6...@anon.penet.fi
Voice (708)665-9732 http://www.mcs.net/~krikket/home.html (WWW Page)
http://www.mcs.net/~krikket/html/tsd.html (The Straight Dope Archives)
First Job of Government: Protect people from govermment.
Second Job of Government: Protect people from each other
It must *never* be the job of government to protect people from themselves.
MIKE BLAKE
On 05/22/95 Avedon Carol complained
on the topic of "Re: Fandom just the same as always"
AC> I used to be able to gafiate for weeks at a time until I got
AC> this bloody modem. Now I rarely seem to manage it for more
AC> than 12 hours at a stretch. *Sigh*
It's hard to gafiate totally if this is one's current type of fanac.
Previous to this, all one really had to do to gafiate was Do
Nothing.
If you didn't pub your ish, loc the zines that showed up in your
mailbox or contribute to them otherwise, meet minac or go to an
occasional con, whatever, that was it. Participation and feedback
were the coin of the realm and it was no pay, no play. The locs and
other letters, apas and trades would dwindle down to nothing.
Outside of personal friendships, you were more or less lost to
fandom.
Doing nothing online doesn't put you into self-imposed exile; it's
just called Lurking....
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Karen Cooper
>Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com) wrote:
>>As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
>>be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
>>of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
>>ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
>>to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in 2073? 8^)
Well, I won't say we are and I won't say we aren't, but I will say most
of us will be dead by 2073.
Some speculation has been heard around town of bidding for the _73rd_
Worldcon, which is around 2015. It's even, I have heard, in rotation.
Others of us believe that since we keep bidding for a Worldcon Past, we
are doomed to run one _every_year_. At least once Minicon has been bigger
than Worldcon, and might be again this year.
Anybody have projected attendance numbers for The Scottish Convention?
Karen.
Andy Trembley
>Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com) wrote:
>>As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
>>be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
>>of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
>>ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
>>to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in 2073? 8^)
Well, seeing that it's a famous quote of several Minicon ex-triumvirate
members that "Friends don't let friends run Worldcons" and has been for
years, I doubt it. Then again, that may be what they're having kids for...
Take a look at the Minicon30 program, it explains the whole Mpls'73 bid
thang pretty well.
Anyway, why should Minneapolis *want* a worldcon? They've already got
one...
---He says they've already got one!---
---Can we see it?---
--
Andy Trembley hitchhiker on the road to Dharmapalooza
Computing Techniques, Inc. On assignment at Allen-Bradley
attr...@mkelan5.remnet.ab.com TwinkCode forthcoming...
Karen Cooper
>Well, seeing that it's a famous quote of several Minicon ex-triumvirate
>members that "Friends don't let friends run Worldcons" and has been for
>years, I doubt it. Then again, that may be what they're having kids for...
Well, I dunno what this is. One year our Exec called itself "The Grand
Triumvarate," to be sure, but they hardly invented the phrase. Then, too,
none of the three has or (I am pretty sure) is planning to have children.
>Take a look at the Minicon30 program, it explains the whole Mpls'73 bid
>thang pretty well.
Maybe David could put it on the web page, for the benefit of those fen who
don't have easy access to Minicon 30's program book?
>Anyway, why should Minneapolis *want* a worldcon? They've already got
>one...
My previous point exactly.
Karen. [ignoring that "several" -- I hope Avedon isn't disappointed]
P Nielsen Hayden
>On 05/19/95 Karen Cooper mentioned
> on the matter of "Re: Fandom just the same as always":
> > GAR...@delphi.com comes back from The Long Sleep:
> GL> One of the best times I recall was a lobbycon at the World Stf
> GL> Con in Toronto (I believe in 70? 71?).
> KC> 1973, I think it was.
> You've been bidding for Minneapolis for that year so long you
> forgot who really won. It was Australia. Toronto was 1972, DC
> was 1974.
Karen is correct; Mike Blake is wrong. Viz:
1972, Los Angeles
1973, Toronto
1974, Washington, DC
1975, Melbourne, Australia
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden: p...@tor.com : opinions mine
http://www.panix.com/~pnh : http://www.tor.com
David E Romm
wrote:
> As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
> be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
> of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
> ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
> to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
That's pretty much my view. Mpls is so into partying that we'll use ANY
excuse to hold one, even hosting a Worldcon bid party for a Worldcon that
we've already lost. That's FUNNY! Crazy Mpls Fandom at its best! For
Mpls to actually hold a worldcon would be to destroy the joke.
--
Shockwave: Science Fiction/Science Fact. The only tactile radio program in
the galaxy. Tapes available.
"We are here and it is now. Further than that all human knowledge is
moonshine." -- H. L. Mencken
Dr Gafia
<3q3hn9$d...@Mercury.mcs.com> first
quotes Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com):
<<snip>>
>> ...Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have to vote the
>>worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in
>2073? 8^)
Could be! At which point it ceases being a never-say-die bid carried
to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
con carried to ridiculous extremes....
--rich brown
Garth Spencer
It dawns on me, as I read this thread, that some fans comprehend what
"fannish" means and some fans don't.
I had a fuzzy impression that "fannish" was doing lyrically goofy things
for the sheer exuberance and high-spirited humour of it, among other
things. It appears that some people don't get the idea. If this is the idea.
At this point I became enlightened.
User Support
: kri...@MCS.COM (Krikket) in
: <<snip>>
: --rich brown
Sorry. 2073 isn't in your zone. That'll be east coast.
Dr Gafia
<romm-270...@ppp-66-51.dialup.winternet.com> sez:
>In article <3q3gah$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>drg...@aol.com (Dr Gafia) wrote:
>> As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
>> be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
>> of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
>> ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
>> to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>That's pretty much my view. Mpls is so into partying that we'll use
>ANY excuse to hold one, even hosting a Worldcon bid party for a
>Worldcon that we've already lost. That's FUNNY! Crazy Mpls
>Fandom at its best! For Mpls to actually hold a worldcon would be
>to destroy the joke.
You have a good sense of humor most of the time, but here you miss
the joke. I'm not suggesting Mpls "actually" hold a worldcon. I'm
suggesting that that kind of perserverence will, sooner or later, pay
off--some convention (maybe the Scottish one, maybe the one in LA,
or maybe whoever's holding it in 2023) will vote to retroactively grant
Mpls official permission to hold the world convention...in 1973.
Since you don't have a time machine, there's no way you can go back
and actually hold the worldcon in Mpls. All you will have "won" is what
you have been bidding for ever since 1973, i.e., permission to hold the
1973 worldcon. That permission is, of course, absolutely useless at this
point, but I believe the thinking will be that you've worked so hard to
get
it that you deserve it, whether it's worthless or not.
But having to explain it in such plonking detail DOES kindof deprive it of
what natural humor it might otherwise have--I grant you that.
Dr Gafia
opines to Allen Sundry:
Glad to hear that last; you must tell us about it sometime.
Actually, your definition of "fannish" is perfectly acceptable. But
a lot depends on context. Your definition is of "fannish" used as
something opposed to "sercon," particularly the early definition of
"sercon" which implied that the person was not just serious but
perhaps TOO serious about sf. Your definition of "fannish: is less
perfect, but still acceptable, as a contrast with "mundane".
While your definitions are acceptable, they're not the only defini-
tions. Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is anything
two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between consent-
ing adults.
Dr Gafia
r...@netaxs.com (User Support) quibbles
in <3q8b5j$c...@netaxs.com>:
Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com) wrote:
>: <<snip>>
>: >> ...Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have to vote the
>: >>worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
[Kriket responds:]
>: >Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in
>: >2073? 8^)
[Dr Gafia:]
>: Could be! At which point it ceases being a never-say-die bid carried
>: to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
>: con carried to ridiculous extremes....
[all for the following one-liner:]
>Sorry. 2073 isn't in your zone. That'll be east coast.
[and now Dr. Gafia/rich brown replies:]
Well, "my" zone is East Coast (I live in Virginia), but not Mpls. Still,
your
projection presumes there are no out-of-rotation (non-U.S.) bids between
now and 2073. Would you be willing to make an even-money bet on that?
David E Romm
wrote:
> I'm not suggesting Mpls "actually" hold a worldcon. I'm
> suggesting that that kind of perserverence will, sooner or later, pay
> off--some convention (maybe the Scottish one, maybe the one in LA,
> or maybe whoever's holding it in 2023) will vote to retroactively grant
> Mpls official permission to hold the world convention...in 1973.
My favorite commentary on the Mpls in '73 bid was from Robert Bloch. In a
loc to Rune (MN-STF's clubzine) he wrote (quote approx from memory): "No,
I want there to be a Worldcon in Toronto in 1973, and I want to be Guest of
Honor."
Which he was.
--
Shockwave: Science Fiction/Science Fact. The only tactile radio program in
the galaxy. Tapes available.
"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."
-- Blore's Razor
Steve Glover
: >> ...Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have to vote the
: >>worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
: >Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in
: >2073? 8^)
: Could be! At which point it ceases being a never-say-die bid carried
: to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
: con carried to ridiculous extremes....
Presumably in 2023?
Steve
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soliciting for Intersection issue of Etranger: topics include morality in
works of people called Smith or about people called Smith; net stuff of likely
interest to SF fans, art... Deadline 15-JUL-1995: steve_...@hicom.lut.ac.uk
Marty Helgesen
<SNIP>
>
>While your definitions are acceptable, they're not the only defini-
>tions. Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is anything
>two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between consent-
>ing adults.
>
for fans with a special interest to talk to each other. They are not
prayer services. However, we do begin with a brief prayer. Immedi-
ately afterwards I enjoy mentioning the old fannish line, "Anything
two or more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm Internet: mn...@cunyvm.cuny.edu
"A sneer is a distortion of the face that reflects a worse
distortion of the soul" -- Frank Sheed
JJSchalles
Rumor has it that come 2073, even though Minneapolis is out of the
rotation for that year, that fandom will collectively turn to "us" saying,
"we've waited a hundred years, now run the damn convention!"
Members of the original bid would, of course, be granted comp memberships.
Martin Schafer has pointed out that Minneapolis -is- in rotation for the
73rd Worldcon. 2015 is long enough away that we could be lulled into
thinking we'd be safe from actually having to work on it. And, of late,
we've been doing a good job of raising new generations of
convention-running fans.
Geri Sullivan
Post-supporting Chair/s/u/c/k/e/r person
7MPLS3
(Still writing on Jeff's account, but from my own computer. Karen Cooper,
you can stop laughing gleefully anytime you want....)
JJSchalles
> Mpls is so into partying that we'll use ANY excuse to hold one, even
> hold a worldcon would be to destroy the joke.
Exactly!
Minneapolis in '73, an idea whose time has come .... and gone ... and
gotten silly.
Geri Sullivan
(still writing on Jeff's account, but from my own computer. The camel's
nose is definitely in the tent....)
JJSchalles
> At which point it ceases being a never-say-die bid carried
> to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
> con carried to ridiculous extremes....
Ah, but that was already true of ConAdian. Garth Danielson put together a
progress report for Winnipeg in '94 in 1978 or so. I have a copy.
Geri Sullivan
JJSchalles
> Since you don't have a time machine, there's no way you can go back
> and actually hold the worldcon in Mpls.
Your assumptions are showing here. All will be revealed -- eventually --
starting with the WorldCon PR#0 written by none other than James White and
appearing in none other than Idea #9. (Coming not so soon to a mail box
near you.)
> All you will have "won" is what you have been bidding for ever since
> 1973, i.e., permission to hold the 1973 worldcon. That permission is,
> of course, absolutely useless at this point, but I believe the thinking
> will be that you've worked so hard to get it that you deserve it,
whether
> it's worthless or not.
But rich, we don't _want_ permission to hold a worldcon, any worldcon!
That's the whole idea behind the post-supporting bid.
Geri Sullivan
(etc.....)
JJSchalles
> even-money bet on that?
Ghu save me from being the first to point this out, or being considered as
an expert on Worldcon bidding rules, but -- as I understand it -- the
existence of non-U.S. bids has no effect whatsoever on the US rotation
system.
The real bet is that the rotation system will remain unchanged for the
next 78 years. Doubtful, in my book.
Geri Sullivan
(etc...)
Dr Gafia
in <romm-280...@ppp-66-1.dialup.winternet.com>:
<<snip>>
>My favorite commentary on the Mpls in '73 bid was from Robert
>Bloch. In a loc to Rune (MN-STF's clubzine) he wrote
>(quote approx from memory): "No, I want there to be a Worldcon
>in Toronto in 1973, and I want to be Guest of Honor."
>Which he was.
And my favorite Bloch commentary is his response to that age-
old fannish question, "Who sawed Courtney's boat?"
Bloch figured Courtney had done it -- for the egoboo.
Dr Gafia
Marty Helgesen <MN...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
in <95149.00...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>:
<<SNIP>>
>Christian Fandom meetings, like other SIG meetings, are an
>opportunity for fans with a special interest to talk to each other.
>They are not prayer services. However, we do begin with a
>brief prayer. Immediately afterwards I enjoy mentioning the old
>fannish line, "Anything two or more fans do together is fanac,"
>and observing that those who popularized it probably never
>thought it would apply to prayer.
I dare say you're probably right about that, Marty!
--rich brown
David E Romm
<MN...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
> Christian Fandom meetings, like other SIG meetings, are an opportunity
> for fans with a special interest to talk to each other. They are not
> prayer services. However, we do begin with a brief prayer. Immedi-
> ately afterwards I enjoy mentioning the old fannish line, "Anything
> two or more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
> popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
If god is a fan, then even solitary prayer is fanac.
--
Shockwave: Science Fiction/Science Fact. The only tactile radio program in
the galaxy. Tapes available.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people
very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
-- Douglas Adams
Karen Cooper
>Martin Schafer has pointed out that Minneapolis -is- in rotation for the
>73rd Worldcon. 2015 is long enough away that we could be lulled into
>thinking we'd be safe from actually having to work on it. And, of late,
>we've been doing a good job of raising new generations of
>convention-running fans.
I said this, too; I know I did. And I like to think you're pointing at
my first-born Parties Co-Head when you say such nice things about the
younger set.
The real reason I am following up, however, is to quote you:
>(Still writing on Jeff's account, but from my own computer. Karen Cooper,
>you can stop laughing gleefully anytime you want....)
And say that that "tromp, tromp, tromp" you hear in the distance is the
Infobahn Construction Crew coming to remove any last vestige of free time
you ever thought you had.
BWA-HA-HA! You'll be one of *us* soon, Geri!
Karen. [so, who's following the nyx/aburt flame war? And what about
the Who Shot Burns discussion? And the Net vs. Scientology? Geri,
you've got a *lot* of reading to do, and you don't even own *1*
Joel Furr t-shirt yet!]
MIKE BLAKE
Marty Helgeson:
> I enjoy mentioning the old fannish line, "Anything two or
> more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
> popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
DavE Romm:
> If god is a fan, then even solitary prayer is fanac.
Is he a SMOF, or just a BNF?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Ben Yalow
>Ghu has granted your wish, it seems. The very first out-of-rotation bid
>in 1956 had a profound effect on the US rotation system. The 1956
>worldcon was held in New York. The rotation system would have sent
>the next convention to the West Coast, had not a bunch of trufans from
>the U.K. popped up with the slogan, "London in '57 AND South Gate in
>'58!" Without them, Rick Sneary's dream would not have come true,
>because the rotation system would have sent the 1958 convention to the
>midwest. Thus, a couple of successful out-of-rotation bids between now
>and 2073 should place the midwest as the locale as the 2073 worldcon,
>no?
Actually, no.
I agree completely that the non-NA Worldcons have had a number of major
effects on the rotation system. However, the rotation system, as is in
the current Constitution, is such that a non-NA bid doesn't change the
rotation at all.
A short history of the rotation would be as follows:
As described above, in the 50's, the rotation system had a skipped zone
slide the rotation by a year. (I describe it as the "system", rather
than as the Constitutional requirements, because there was no
Constitution yet, but only a set of established procedures and Business
Meeting resolutions.)
In 62, a committee was appointed by the BM to report back at Discon the
next year with a codification of all of the past resolutions still in
effect. This codification was adopted, and was the first Constitution.
A summary, including all the debate, can be found in either the Discon
Proceedings (Advent), or George Scithers' Worldcon runner's guide, which
he ran through FAPA (among other places), which has a really good
appendix on the whole process.
At that time, there was a rotation system roughly corresponding to the
current one, but an out-of-zone NA bid could be adopted by a
supermajority, and the rotation would resume with the skipped zone.
In 69, the two year lead time was adopted, along with a NA/non-NA
rotation. Heidelberg (70) was the non-NA, and Boston (71) was the NA one
(there were two elections because of the change in lead time). The
non-NA zone was eliminated in Heidelberg, and, except for a few
historians, all traces have vanished from fannish memory, since it had no
apparent outcomes.
From that point on, the current rotation system has been in place, with
some minor tweaking. NA bids *must* be in the right zone, with no
exceptions. Non-NA bids are allowed any time, and don't change the rotation.
So the non-NA Worldcons have had significant effects, both on the
rotation, and on the rules, but, under current rules, nothing can change
which years Minneapolis is eligible.
>--rich brown
Ben
--
Ben Yalow yb...@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Marty Helgesen
>in 1956 had a profound effect on the US rotation system. The 1956
>worldcon was held in New York. The rotation system would have sent
>the next convention to the West Coast, had not a bunch of trufans from
>the U.K. popped up with the slogan, "London in '57 AND South Gate in
>'58!" Without them, Rick Sneary's dream would not have come true,
>because the rotation system would have sent the 1958 convention to the
>midwest. Thus, a couple of successful out-of-rotation bids between now
>and 2073 should place the midwest as the locale as the 2073 worldcon,
>no?
could pull out a Worldcon program book that included them and quote
them. Instead I will just point out the sequence of recent and
future Worldcons. 1992: Orlando (East Zone), 1993: San Francisco
(West Zone), 1994: Winnipeg (Wimpy, er, Central Zone), 1995: Scotland
(Outside of North America), 1996: Los Angeles (West Zone). If the
rules that gave us London in '57 and South Gate in '58 were still in
effect, the 1996 Worldcon would be in the East Zone."Crossbows don't kill people. Quarrels kill people."
P Nielsen Hayden
>Karen. [so, who's following the nyx/aburt flame war? And what about
> the Who Shot Burns discussion? And the Net vs. Scientology? Geri,
> you've got a *lot* of reading to do, and you don't even own *1*
> Joel Furr t-shirt yet!]
I know about the Net versus Scientoonery, and I know who Joel Furr is, but
the first two escape me. Do tell.
Ben Zuhl
writes:
>kri...@MCS.COM (Krikket) in
><3q3hn9$d...@Mercury.mcs.com> first
>quotes Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com):
>
><<snip>>
>
>>>worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>
>>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in
>>2073? 8^)
>
>to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
>con carried to ridiculous extremes....
>
Yes, and so was Southgate in '58? There's plenty of fannish precedent
for good things and bad to be carried to ridiculous extremes. I'm
perfectly satisfied with the fact that Minneapolis in '73 parties are
among the best and most fannish at conventions that aren't conducive to
such parties--like Worldcons.
BTW There were several partly hidden signs saying "MPLS in '73" in
BEN'ZINE 5. Some were in English and some in Cyrilic Alphabet. Take a
good look and see if you can find them all.
BenZ
JJSchalles
> my first-born Parties Co-Head when you say such nice things about the
> younger set.
Yes, you did. I hadn't read your message when I responded to rich. And
yes, Erik is certainly high on my list of next-gen convention organizers.
Of course, after another 21 years of running Minicon, who will have the
energy to run a Worldcon?
(I hope any grandchildren you have by then are still a tad young for that
task!)
Geri
(etc.)
JJSchalles
> Geri, you've got a *lot* of reading to do, and you don't even own *1*
> Joel Furr t-shirt yet!
But I did add alt.fan.joel-furr to my newsgroup list just tonight, and
scanned through it, so I at least know what you're talking about. Then
again, the host started failing to respond, and when I signed back on, all
my just-added alt. groups had vanished. Are you sure that isn't
"BOO-HOO-HOO" rather than "BWA-HA-HA"?
Free time? What's that? I forgot some 5+ years ago....
But at least I can keep up-to-date with Dr. Gafia Himself. Now, who can
fill us in on successful out-of-rotation bids since Southgate in '58? (And
thanks for that bit of history, rich. I'd somehow read through that
important fact in reading about Sneary's dream-come-true.
Geri
(Still writing on Jeff's account, when she should be polishing the layout
of the NSP Comp&Benefits handbook)
Sharon L Sbarsky
>
>So the non-NA Worldcons have had significant effects, both on the
>rotation, and on the rules, but, under current rules, nothing can change
>which years Minneapolis is eligible.
>
Sharon
Martin Schafer
>
>Dr Gafia (drg...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>>As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
>>be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
>>of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
>>to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>
>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in 2073? 8^)
>
That's been some people's presumption for quite a while. Some of us
are thinking seriously about the 73rd Worldcon. That one is in
rotation.
Martin
Dr Gafia
<3qej9d$8...@panix3.panix.com> he is the most detailed
in explaining how the rotation system won't do what it used
to do.
Yee gads and little fishes. We fanzine fans let you folks handle all
the details of the convention for a few decades and what happens?
You get it all bungled up. Tch.
Although, I grant you, this is the perfect thread to find that out on.
Plus ca change... as old Uncle Hugo said.
Okay. I stand corrected. I was WRONG. I want all of you to be my
witness--when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I say so out loud. Foo
knows, it doesn't happen often. Last time, actually, in 1926, Chas.
Burbee turned to me and said, "Meyer"--Burb always called me Meyer
in those days--"Meyer," he said to me with his mouth, "should I invent
sex or bubble gum?" I recalled as how Burb--I always called him Burb
in those days--had just invented canned bheer in 1925, so I said,
"Bubble gum."
Well, as everyone knows, Burb didn't take my advice, even though he
had sought it from me. And I admitted I was wrong then, too. Other-
wise, when you hear someone say, "Sex is the greatest thing since
canned beer," you wouldn't realize you were talking about BOTH of
Burbee's inventions...
Chris Malme
keco...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen Cooper) writes:
>>Are you sure that now they aren't bidding for the WorldCon in 2073? 8^)
k> Well, I won't say we are and I won't say we aren't, but I will say most
k> of us will be dead by 2073.
So? "Some day, son/daughter, this will all be yours..." You've heard of
generation starships, how about generation concoms?
What a legacy to leave someone! <g>
Chris
--
| Fidonet: Chris Malme 2:441/104
| Internet: mins...@filklore.demon.co.uk
| via Minstrel's Wormhole - Fido <-> Internet Gateway
Karen Cooper
>keco...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen Cooper) writes:
>>Karen. [so, who's following the nyx/aburt flame war? And what about
>> the Who Shot Burns discussion? And the Net vs. Scientology? Geri,
>> you've got a *lot* of reading to do, and you don't even own *1*
>> Joel Furr t-shirt yet!]
>I know about the Net versus Scientoonery, and I know who Joel Furr is, but
>the first two escape me. Do tell.
Well, (crowds in conspiratorially) Andrew Burt the sysadmin of Nyx
cancelled the account of one James A. Keegan, for fuggheadedness and
stupid and malicious cross-posting. Keegan may also be accused of forging
posts from his account (I'm not really following it that closely) which I
see as a hanging offense. The x-posting isn't *bad*, it's just dumb,
imho. So that's been spewed all over news.admin.policy and n.a.misc, as
well as talk.abortion (tempers got pretty hot) and alt.flame.
Who Shot Burns, on the other hand, is the voluminous thread over on
alt.tv.simpsons, which comprises such fun Subject: lines as "IT WAS THE
DOG!!!!" and "MAGGIE DID IT -- NEW CLUE!!!" and where people argue the
same stuff over and over and over. a.t.s posters are not terribly bright,
but they've got such passion. And they've got the best .sigs on the net.
If you missed the shooting during the final episode, btw, dispair not.
James A. Cherry will probably post the capsule summary as soon as its
done. He'll certainly mail it to you if you ask nicely. He's at
j...@doe.carleton.ca. Using "Master Cherry" in the body of the message
will probably get fastest response; he finished his Master of Electrical
Engineering degree very recently and is deservedly proud.
But I digress. What are *you* reading these days, Patrick?
Karen. [has unsubscribed from almost everything. Really]
Dick Smith
% At which point it ceases being a never-say-die bid carried
% to ridiculous extremes and becomes, instead, a planned-ahead world-
% con carried to ridiculous extremes....
jjsch...@aol.com (Geri Sullivan) replies:
>Ah, but that was already true of ConAdian. Garth Danielson put together a
>progress report for Winnipeg in '94 in 1978 or so. I have a copy.
My wife still had the receipt from her presupport of the Winnipeg in '94
bid which was run by "Decadent Winnipeg Fandom" in the '70s. I reprinted
it in Uncle Dick's. Conadian honored it!
--
Dick Smith di...@smith.chi.il.us
office: Sm...@ivsystems.roundlake.baxter.com
P Nielsen Hayden
[explanation of nyx vs. burt, and "who shot burns"]
Ah. Nyx. Isn't there always some fuss going on there? As to Burns, I see.
What you must understand about me is that, although I enjoy quite a lot of
mindless TV when someone plops me down in front of the set, I have a
disability that prevents me from ever remembering when anything is on.
As to what I'm reading: why, this group, of course.
mark
ro...@winternet.com (David E Romm) wrote:
> In article <95149.00...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>, Marty Helgesen
> <MN...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Christian Fandom meetings, like other SIG meetings, are an opportunity
> > for fans with a special interest to talk to each other. They are not
> > prayer services. However, we do begin with a brief prayer. Immedi-
> > two or more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
> > popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
>
The Goddess certainly is a fan, as are a lot of Her celebrants...the
Church of All Worlds being a great example....
mark
mark
> wrote:
>
> > As may be. I've been told the "ongoing" bid is just supposed to
> > be an indication of how Mpls "likes to party" but I've always thought
> > of it as the notion of refusing to give up carried to typically fannish
> > ridiculous extremes. Sooner or later, y'know, fandom's going to have
> > to vote the worldcon to Mps in '73, even if it is retroactively...
>
> excuse to hold one, even hosting a Worldcon bid party for a Worldcon that
> we've already lost. That's FUNNY! Crazy Mpls Fandom at its best! For
> Mpls to actually hold a worldcon would be to destroy the joke.
>
it be converted into a full attending, or would I just get the program
book and the pocket program before the con, to savor the memories I hadn't
had yet?
mark
Chad Childers
>two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between consent-
>ing adults.
Only if they're wearing propeller beanies, or using lime jello. ;-)
--
/* Chad Childers */ http://grimmy.cnidr.org/chad.html
Avedon Carol
> ately afterwards I enjoy mentioning the old fannish line, "Anything
> two or more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
> popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
>
Nonsense. We have been praying to Roscoe and Ghu, among others, for
decades.
Avedon Carol
> and 2073 should place the midwest as the locale as the 2073
> worldcon,
> no?
>
Or, we could just declare it an exceptional year. Let's just agree that
Mpls can legitimately bid for 2073 and hold the worldcon if they happen
to win. It's hardly as if we don't have time to get used to the idea...
Dr Gafia
ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Avedon Carol") quotes,
then comments in <D9n7D...@cix.compulink.co.uk>
to Marty Helgesen:
>>...Immediately afterwards I enjoy mentioning the old fannish
>>line, "Anything two or more fans do together is fanac," and
>>observing that those who popularized it probably never thought
>>it would apply to prayer.
>Nonsense. We have been praying to Roscoe and Ghu, among
>others, for decades.
Depends on how literally you take what Marty says, Avedon. The
line is Burbee's, from the late 1950's (when Burb came up with the
idea of FAPA shacktivity requirements--i.e., people who were living
together and doing what married people living together do could
share a FAPA membership like married people, provided they only
proved to Burbee that they did what married people living together
do...). Burbee and Laney published a couple of issues of SPACE-
WARP for Art Rapp but I don't believe either of they converted to
Roscoeism. Nor have I ever seen anything to indicate what, if any,
of the fannish religions Burbee may have followed.
Certainly, however, although the phrase is Burbee's, OTHER fans
were involved in popularizing it, and it's true that any number of them
may have been followers of the false ghods of fandom. (Or of FooFoo,
the true ghod of true fhadom, for that matter.)
--rich brown
David E Romm
BLAKE) wrote:
>
> Marty Helgeson:
> > I enjoy mentioning the old fannish line, "Anything two or
> > more fans do together is fanac," and observing that those who
> > popularized it probably never thought it would apply to prayer.
>
> DavE Romm:
> > If god is a fan, then even solitary prayer is fanac.
>
> Is he a SMOF, or just a BNF?
I dunno. I haven't seen a loc from him in a couple of millenia. On the
other hand, if he were to loc, I'm sure it would be printed.
Obligatory Shockwave bit:
ABBOT ANN COSTELLO: "I have a 'good news and bad news' joke for you."
MAGNUM MNEUMONIC, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: "Okay, I'll bite."
ANN: "The good news is, God is Coming!"
MMPI: "Wait. I've heard this one before. The bad news is 'she's black',
right?"
ANN: "No, they're athiests."
-- Dave Romm, "When The Chips Are Down", 1985/1990
Avedon Carol
> >Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is
> anything
> >two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between
> consent-
> >ing adults.
Hence the expression 'horizontal fanac'.
David E Romm
wrote:
[re not holding the Mpls in '73 Worldcon because actually doing so would
spoil the joke]
> Yeah! Besides, what would happen with my post-supporting membership? Would
> it be converted into a full attending, or would I just get the program
> book and the pocket program before the con, to savor the memories I hadn't
> had yet?
For the mere price of a 2073 penny, we will convert your post-supporting
membership to pre-supporting.
--
Shockwave: Science Fiction/Science Fact. The only tactile radio program in
the galaxy. Tapes available.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect." -- Steven
Wright
david....@co.hennepin.mn.us
>In article <8AA4423.1ECB...@enest.com>, mike....@enest.com (MIKE
>BLAKE) wrote:
>
>> DavE Romm:
>> > If god is a fan, then even solitary prayer is fanac.
>>
>> Is he a SMOF, or just a BNF?
>
>I dunno. I haven't seen a loc from him in a couple of millenia. On the
>other hand, if he were to loc, I'm sure it would be printed.
>
Oh, wow, synchronicity strikes again. At the recent WISCON I participated in
the fanzine readings (the Fan-O-Rama), and read (among other things) an
excerpt from a Willis column, "The Harp That Once Or Twice", originally
published in Oopsla! about 40 years ago. This particular piece had Willis
musing over the Bible considered as a fanzine. Salient points included:
- A one-shot so far, tho Muslims may have other ideas
- Begins with an explanation of origins and production problems (Genesis etc)
- All the linos are concentrated in one section (Proverbs)
- A bunch of columns by LNFs with funny names like Habbakuk
- A set of 4 sort-of con reports (gospels), followed by what everybody did
afterwards (Acts)
- A long letters section (tho they're letters to the readers instead of from
them)
- Ends with an "In Times To Come" section
And at the end Willis estimates your chances of getting a loc published
(probably not, but talk to your local minister).
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
David Emerson Come to ReinCONation!
(one of the Minneapolis Davids) October 13-15 1995, Minneapolis
GoHs: Judith Merril, Andy Hooper
GAR...@delphi.com
> Nonsense. We have been praying to Roscoe and Ghu, among others, for
> decades.
Rainbow V 1.17.5 for Delphi - Test Drive
GAR...@delphi.com
Quoting drgafia from a message in rec.arts.sf.fandom
> (Or of FooFoo, the true ghod of true fhadom, for that matter.)
> --rich brown
Oh, see my previous post, set up and sent just prior to seeing your
response, Herr Dr. Ach! Foofoo, FooFoo, vas ist der difference? (I know,
one more keystroke. I'm just a shiftless type.)
ghl
mark
>
> > Nonsense. We have been praying to Roscoe and Ghu, among others, for
> > decades.
> And Foofoo. Please don't forget Foofoo.
>
Bleaching souls, In-Deed!
mark "Praised Be Ghu!"
David E Romm
david....@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote:
> In <romm-040...@ppp-66-12.dialup.winternet.com>, ro...@winternet.com (David E Romm) writes:
> >In article <8AA4423.1ECB...@enest.com>, mike....@enest.com (MIKE
> >BLAKE) wrote:
> >
> >> DavE Romm:
> >> > If god is a fan, then even solitary prayer is fanac.
> >>
> >> Is he a SMOF, or just a BNF?
> >
> >I dunno. I haven't seen a loc from him in a couple of millenia. On the
> >other hand, if he were to loc, I'm sure it would be printed.
> >
>
> Oh, wow, synchronicity strikes again. At the recent WISCON I participated in
> the fanzine readings (the Fan-O-Rama), and read (among other things) an
> excerpt from a Willis column, "The Harp That Once Or Twice", originally
> published in Oopsla! about 40 years ago. This particular piece had Willis
> musing over the Bible considered as a fanzine. Salient points included:
[salient snips]
Actually, it's a spin on the section of the latest Shockwave Minicon Stage
Show: "The main problem with the New Testament is that it's obviously the
middle book of a trilogy." The full script can be found at
http://nam.ing.com:80/minicon30/shockwave-script-1995.html
but I'm willing to believe that Willis saw the performance and travelled
back in time to write his piece 40 years ago.
--
And speaking of a long time ago, my article "The Liberal 60s Were Better
Than The Conservative 90s" is at http://www.spectacle.org/695/romart.html
GAR...@delphi.com
Quoting whitroth from a message in rec.arts.sf.fandom
> > And Foofoo. Please don't forget Foofoo.
> >
> HERESY! A Heretic!
Actually, yes. At a Mota meeting once I was overheard to doubt someone
about something. This, of course, is heresy of the first order. A trial
was immediately convened and sentence was pronounced. (Many sentences
were pronounced, in fact. One of them was MY sentence.) My punishment
was to be Death by Drinking (no time limit). As I recall, this was a
pretty standard result of heresy in those days.
I tried, I tried, and I almost succeeded.
{Memory #8}
Keep smiling,
ghl
P.S. If you don't know the Mota Society, then you'll have to look it up
in the ... oh, the Fancyclopedia ... or ask dr. gafia ... or something.
"Remember the Rooster that Wore Red Pants!"
Martin Smith
I think we should just _make_ Mpls the host for the 2073
Worldcon, and let whoever is around then sort out the problems.
Heck, if I'm still around then to get called to account, I'll
just claim senility...
Dr Gafia
mar...@muttley.win-uk.net (Martin Smith)
chimes in in <1...@muttley.win-uk.net>:
>In article <D9n7D...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "Avedon Carol"
>(ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk) writes:
>>> Thus, a couple of successful out-of-rotation bids between now
>>> and 2073 should place the midwest as the locale as the 2073
>>> worldcon,
>>> no?
>>
>>> --rich brown
>
>>Or, we could just declare it an exceptional year. Let's just agree that
>>Mpls can legitimately bid for 2073 and hold the worldcon if they happen
>>to win. It's hardly as if we don't have time to get used to the idea...
>I think we should just _make_ Mpls the host for the 2073
>Worldcon, and let whoever is around then sort out the problems.
And I still think the best idea would be to give Mpls permission to hold
the Worldcon in Mpls in 1973 retroactively.
--rich brown
Martin Smith
In article <D9otv...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "Avedon Carol" (ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk) writes:
>ROB HANSEN HERE:
>
>> >Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is
>> anything
>> >two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between
>> consent-
>> >ing adults.
>
>
>Hence the expression 'horizontal fanac'.
Me, I always thought 'horizontal fanac' was lying in bed thinking
of doing a fanzine...
Martin
Just strolling down the Information Superhighway
Dr Gafia
mar...@muttley.win-uk.net (Martin Smith) gives us:
<<SNIP>>
>> >Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is
>> anything
>> >two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between
>> consent-
>> >ing adults.
>
>
>>Hence the expression 'horizontal fanac'.
>Me, I always thought 'horizontal fanac' was lying in bed thinking
>of doing a fanzine...
No, Martin--that's horizontal mental crifananc....
--rich brown
Pam Wells
> In article <D9otv...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "Avedon Carol"
> (ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk) writes:
> >ROB HANSEN HERE:
> >
> >> >Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is
> >> anything
> >> >two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between
> >> consent-
> >> >ing adults.
> >
> >Hence the expression 'horizontal fanac'.
>
> Me, I always thought 'horizontal fanac' was lying in bed thinking
> of doing a fanzine...
Especially in Britain, where men lying horizontally in bed are typically
too drunk to do anything other than think of doing a fanzine. (What, me,
bitter?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pam Wells 'She was the best of tarts, she was the worst of tarts'
Bernard Peek
Vacuou...@bitch.demon.co.uk "Pam Wells" writes:
> In article <1...@muttley.win-uk.net> mar...@muttley.win-uk.net writes:
>
> > In article <D9otv...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "Avedon Carol"
> > (ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk) writes:
> > >ROB HANSEN HERE:
> > >
> > >> >Personally, I go by the Burbee dictum--"fannish" is
> > >> anything
> > >> >two fans do together. Most definitely including sex between
> > >> consent-
> > >> >ing adults.
> > >
> > >Hence the expression 'horizontal fanac'.
> >
> > Me, I always thought 'horizontal fanac' was lying in bed thinking
> > of doing a fanzine...
>
> Especially in Britain, where men lying horizontally in bed are typically
> too drunk to do anything other than think of doing a fanzine. (What, me,
> bitter?)
I didn't realise you were a bitter drinker Pam?
--
Bernard Peek
I.T and Management Development Trainer to the Cognoscenti
(In search of Cognoscenti.)
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Jerry Kaufman
>
> (What, me,
> bitter?)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in Seattle we have a band that plays for folk dances called Pale,
Bitter and Stout. I'd noticed the pleasant allusion to various beers
and ales, but until now I'd never thought it might be a description of
someone. I hasten EXTREMELY quickly to say, "Not of anyone I know!"
Yours,,,,,
Jerry
Berni Phillips
: Here in Seattle we have a band that plays for folk dances called Pale,
: Bitter and Stout. I'd noticed the pleasant allusion to various beers
: and ales, but until now I'd never thought it might be a description of
: someone. I hasten EXTREMELY quickly to say, "Not of anyone I know!"
Here I was thinking that it was a new law firm!
Berni
Martin Smith
>Especially in Britain, where men lying horizontally in bed are typically
>too drunk to do anything other than think of doing a fanzine. (What, me,
>bitter?)
Bitter? Make mine a pint!
Martin
(lying in the fast lane of the Information Superhighway)
Karen Cooper
>And speaking of great band names, we just heard of one called
>Edward II and the Red Hot Polkas.
Best band name ever: Phil and the Blanks.
Karen.
David E Romm
keco...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen Cooper) wrote:
There was a short-lived trumpet group called Maslow's Heirarchies.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact.
http://www.winternet.com/~romm
EMERSOND
>In article <kecooper....@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
>keco...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen Cooper) wrote:
>
>> ave...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Avedon Carol") writes:
>>
>> >And speaking of great band names, we just heard of one called
>> >Edward II and the Red Hot Polkas.
>>
>> Best band name ever: Phil and the Blanks.
>
>There was a short-lived trumpet group called Maslow's Heirarchies.
>
My current favorite is a local (Mpls) band called the Auto Body Experience.
(Back in the sixties, when groups like the Electric Spinach and the 13th Floor
Elevators were in vogue, and I was studying physics, I thought the name
"The Ultraviolet Catastrophe" would be an absolutely perfect name for a
psychedelic rock band. Unfortunately, those days seem to be gone forever.)
David Langford
Various people contributing weird band names ...
I think it was the British cartoonist Posy Simmonds who invented Hugh
Janus and the Dropouts.
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.compulink.co.uk
d...@ansible.demon.co.uk
Lynn Gold
David Langford <d...@ansible.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Various people contributing weird band names ...
>
>I think it was the British cartoonist Posy Simmonds who invented Hugh
>Janus and the Dropouts.
Reminds me a bit of "Randy Gonads and Pus."
They used to do a priceless version of "Que Sera Sera." (Really!)
--Lynn
--
Lynn Gold "net.fogey" fi...@netcom.com,
Sr. Tech Writer, Oracle Corp (weekdays) l.g...@genie.geis.com,
KLIV & KARA News (fill-in) or lag...@us.oracle.com
Thought of the week:
"We may have our backs against the wall, but we won't give up; we'll do what
Britain has historically done when we have our backs against the wall:
turn around and keep fighting."
-- Prime Minister John Major, on his
Conservative Party's massive losses in
the recent round of local elections