Re: A Modest Proposal

[Keith F. Lynch]

karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
> programs

I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
dreading the upcoming gym class each day.

> (I'm aware that that doesn't necessitate a $60 million stadium).

Indeed. And could most students even use it? Or was it just for
those few selected for the football team? Those few were probably
the students least in need of additional exercise.

> Sports programs give young people things to do other than join gangs
> and/or commit crimes, saving money for policing & incarceration.

There are plenty of other things to do, things that involve neither
sports nor crimes. Indeed, neither sports nor crimes have ever been
a part of my life. And again, most students never join the football
team or any other sports team. And even if they did, what happens
after they graduate? Only a tiny percentage go on to be college
athletes or pro athletes. And I've seen no evidence that pro athletes
are less inclined to commit crimes than are non-athletes.

> The former BC government had ferries for the BC Ferries service (tax
> payer and user funded) built here in BC. Not perfectly efficient,
> but the work was done here, creating jobs here.

DC subway cars are built in Italy. Of course construction and
maintenance of the tunnels and rail lines are necessarily local. But
that doesn't spread the wealth, as it pays so well that it's mostly
concentrating wealth.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>> programs
>
>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.

Exercise helps the brain.

>> (I'm aware that that doesn't necessitate a $60 million stadium).
>
>Indeed. And could most students even use it? Or was it just for
>those few selected for the football team? Those few were probably
>the students least in need of additional exercise.

I don't know about the Allen District stadium, but the one at my HS was
used for many different sports and activities. It had a track around it
(like most HS football fields I have encountered), so boys and girls
track & field events were held there. The field itself doubled as a
soccer field, so both boys and girls soccer events were held there.
Inside the stands were weight facilities.

All gym classes used the track during the track portions of the
curriculum and the weight facility during those portions of the
curriculum. A specialized weight training class also used the weight
training facility.

Since PE was a requirement (2 years worth, IIRC), every student at the
school who could take PE got benefit from the stadium.

>> Sports programs give young people things to do other than join gangs
>> and/or commit crimes, saving money for policing & incarceration.
>
>There are plenty of other things to do, things that involve neither
>sports nor crimes. Indeed, neither sports nor crimes have ever been
>a part of my life.

And, yet, for some students what goes on at the stadium is a very
important part of their lives.

>And again, most students never join the football
>team or any other sports team. And even if they did, what happens
>after they graduate? Only a tiny percentage go on to be college
>athletes or pro athletes.

How many chess club members go on to be Grandmasters? As of December
2009, there were 1192 FIDE Grandmasters in the world. There were 1696
pro football players on active rosters in the NFL. There is also a
Practice Squad of 8 players per team (32 teams). Additionally, there are
currently two minor leagues playing football (UFL and Arena League) in
the US and there is a pro league in Canada (CFL). And that is just
North American sports and only football.

>And I've seen no evidence that pro athletes
>are less inclined to commit crimes than are non-athletes.
>
>> The former BC government had ferries for the BC Ferries service (tax
>> payer and user funded) built here in BC. Not perfectly efficient,
>> but the work was done here, creating jobs here.
>
>DC subway cars are built in Italy. Of course construction and
>maintenance of the tunnels and rail lines are necessarily local. But
>that doesn't spread the wealth, as it pays so well that it's mostly
>concentrating wealth.

Washington State Ferries are required (currently), by law, to be built
in Washington.
--
"...and Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess.
They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a
characteristic of them."
- Margaret Thatcher

[karl.j...@gmail.com]

On May 14, 5:41 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> karl.johan...@gmail.com <karl.johan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
> > programs
>
> I'm skeptical.

Good.

>I for one probably did worse in class because I was
> dreading the upcoming gym class each day.

Bummer.

> > (I'm aware that that doesn't necessitate a $60 million stadium).
>
> Indeed.  And could most students even use it?  Or was it just for
> those few selected for the football team?  Those few were probably
> the students least in need of additional exercise.
>
> > Sports programs give young people things to do other than join gangs
> > and/or commit crimes, saving money for policing & incarceration.
>
> There are plenty of other things to do, things that involve neither
> sports nor crimes.

I agree completely.

> Indeed, neither sports nor crimes have ever been
> a part of my life.  And again, most students never join the football
> team or any other sports team.  And even if they did, what happens
> after they graduate?

I graduated around 32 years ago & still play sports. It's not the only
exercise I get, of course. Walking, gardening are to other significant
ones.

>Only a tiny percentage go on to be college
> athletes or pro athletes.  And I've seen no evidence that pro athletes
> are less inclined to commit crimes than are non-athletes.

> > The former BC government had ferries for the BC Ferries service (tax
> > payer and user funded) built here in BC.  Not perfectly efficient,
> > but the work was done here, creating jobs here.
>
> DC subway cars are built in Italy.  Of course construction and
> maintenance of the tunnels and rail lines are necessarily local.  But
> that doesn't spread the wealth, as it pays so well that it's mostly
> concentrating wealth.

None of the maintenance workers spend money & pay taxes in the area?

Karl Johanson

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:

> On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>>> programs
>>
>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>
> Exercise helps the brain.

Yeah, that's the politically correct belief. I find exercise just makes
me tired. Ever more so back then.

And if you're one of those people for whom gym class is a soul-searing
hell, I can see how that would do bad things for your whole time in
school.

Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than the
other students to think they're gods and can get away with anything they
want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot. It certainly makes
it clear where actual school-work ranks in the hierarchy.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 10:31:44, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>>>> programs
>>>
>>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>
>> Exercise helps the brain.
>
>Yeah, that's the politically correct belief. I find exercise just makes
>me tired. Ever more so back then.

There seems to be scientific evidence for the notion.

<http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/how-exercise-benefits-the-brain/>

Maybe not the frenetic activity sometimes found in gym class, but at
least some level. Plus, a higher percentage of youth are turning up
with obesity, so the exercise would help (yes, I know - diet is the most
important thing in weight loss) ameliorate that.

>And if you're one of those people for whom gym class is a soul-searing
>hell, I can see how that would do bad things for your whole time in
>school.
>
>Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than the
>other students to think they're gods and can get away with anything they
>want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot. It certainly makes
>it clear where actual school-work ranks in the hierarchy.

*That* depends on the teachers involved. I had gym teachers who did not
countenance that kind of thing. I also had some that encouraged it.
--
"Molon labe!"
- Leonidas

[David Friedman]

In article
<45739d97-8055-41f5...@t2g2000pbl.googlegroups.com>,

"karl.j...@gmail.com" <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Indeed, neither sports nor crimes have ever been
> > a part of my life. And again, most students never join the football
> > team or any other sports team. And even if they did, what happens
> > after they graduate?
>
> I graduated around 32 years ago & still play sports. It's not the only
> exercise I get, of course. Walking, gardening are to other significant
> ones.

The only athletic activities I have ever been any good at却ing pong and
sword and shield fighting蟻re ones that were not taught at school.
Currently, I get my exercise doing yard work, also not taught in school.

Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
concerned.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:

> On Tue, 15 May 2012 10:31:44, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>> On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>>>>> programs
>>>>
>>>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>>
>>> Exercise helps the brain.
>>
>>Yeah, that's the politically correct belief. I find exercise just makes
>>me tired. Ever more so back then.
>
> There seems to be scientific evidence for the notion.
>
> <http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/how-exercise-benefits-the-brain/>
>
> Maybe not the frenetic activity sometimes found in gym class, but at
> least some level. Plus, a higher percentage of youth are turning up
> with obesity, so the exercise would help (yes, I know - diet is the most
> important thing in weight loss) ameliorate that.

Clearly there's some. I don't even have a personal opinion yet how much
individual variation there is on this.

>>And if you're one of those people for whom gym class is a soul-searing
>>hell, I can see how that would do bad things for your whole time in
>>school.
>>
>>Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than the
>>other students to think they're gods and can get away with anything they
>>want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot. It certainly makes
>>it clear where actual school-work ranks in the hierarchy.
>
> *That* depends on the teachers involved. I had gym teachers who did not
> countenance that kind of thing. I also had some that encouraged it.

The first depends at least somewhat on the gym teachers. The second has
nothing to do with them, since it doesn't take place in gym class.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

Actually, my best example of this did not take place in gym class. It
took place in the cafeteria.

Two football coaches observed and intervened in a conflict between
myself and member of the team (I had been forced to quit football after
my Sophomore year by my mother's refusal to sign the consent forms - I
had been the starting FB on the sophomore team) and they assigned blame
for the incident to the football player - which got him detention.
--
"Always look a gift horse in the mouth."
- Milton Friedman

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:

> On Tue, 15 May 2012 14:39:20, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>>> On Tue, 15 May 2012 10:31:44, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>>"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>>>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than the
>>>>other students to think they're gods and can get away with anything they
>>>>want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot. It certainly makes
>>>>it clear where actual school-work ranks in the hierarchy.
>>>
>>> *That* depends on the teachers involved. I had gym teachers who did not
>>> countenance that kind of thing. I also had some that encouraged it.
>>
>>The first depends at least somewhat on the gym teachers. The second has
>>nothing to do with them, since it doesn't take place in gym class.
>
> Actually, my best example of this did not take place in gym class. It
> took place in the cafeteria.
>
> Two football coaches observed and intervened in a conflict between
> myself and member of the team (I had been forced to quit football after
> my Sophomore year by my mother's refusal to sign the consent forms - I
> had been the starting FB on the sophomore team) and they assigned blame
> for the incident to the football player - which got him detention.

Ah, a technicality -- in my school, the football coach wasn't a gym
teacher, and hence this event (which might well have played out this way
in my school -- *my* experience wasn't bad, *our* jocks were in my math
classes mostly and *didn't* get especially obnoxious) would not have
involved a *gym* teacher.

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

One *was* a gym teacher. The other (the Defensive Coordinator) was the
Physics teacher. Neither of them was the Head Coach (who was a gym
teacher). Coach Pugh was, admittedly, an outlier. The rest of the
coaches for all sports were either gym teachers or Drivers-Ed
instructors AFAIR.
--
"That government which governs the least, governs best."
- Thomas Jefferson

[David Dyer-Bennet]

The football coach was a history teacher (I read him as primarily a
football coach, teaching history to have a job). The cross-country
coach was a very good math teacher. I think the gym teacher coached
basketball and maybe wrestling. Don't remember about swimming or diving
or baseball.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

Probably not both. They generally are in season at the same time.

>Don't remember about swimming or diving or baseball.

I'm betting that the size difference between the schools had something
to do with why your coaches were non-gym teachers and mine mostly were.
We had about 2700 students in three grades. That made for 11 gym
teachers (to go with 6 drivers ed). Looking through the yearbook there
were a couple of other non-gym, non-drivers ed teachers who coached - so
memory had failed (of course those were sports I didn't participate
*in*...). Also my uncle was the basketball coach at a Junior High in a
neighboring district and he taught English.
--
"I'm looking at myself, reflections of my mind.
It's just the kind of day to leave myself behind.
So gently swaying through the fairy-land of love,
If you could just come with me and see the beauty of
Tuesday afternoon.
Tuesday afternoon."
David J. Hayward

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Yes, very likely. I think the school was ~400 in three grades. I only
remember one gym teacher; I presume there were two (one male, one
female).

My father, a math professor at Carleton, often coached tennis or soccer,
and a few years both. Brought back quite a few conference championships
actually, too.

[Keith F. Lynch]

David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> The only athletic activities I have ever been any good at\213ping
> pong and sword and shield fighting\213are ones that were not taught

> at school. Currently, I get my exercise doing yard work, also not
> taught in school.

> Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
> concerned.

To me, they were a big negative. They were a source of dread, and
they taught me that exercise was inherently unpleasant and painful --
a lesson it took me more than a decade to unlearn.

[Keith F. Lynch]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> And if you're one of those people for whom gym class is a
> soul-searing hell, I can see how that would do bad things
> for your whole time in school.

I agree.

> Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than
> the other students to think they're gods and can get away with
> anything they want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot.
> It certainly makes it clear where actual school-work ranks in the
> hierarchy.

Exactly. As I mentioned, it was more than a decade after graduating
high school before I was able to overcome my revulsion to exercise.

If schools want to combat obesity, I suggest they take the opposite
approach: Force every student to spend an hour every day eating
large amounts of really fattening food, whether they want to or not.
The food should be distasteful, and any student who doesn't finish,
or who vomits, should be punished by being forced to eat more, or
even to repeat the whole "class" the following year.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Good point. So I propose that everyone in the area pay me, until I'm
a millionaire. I'll spend, invest, or give away all the money, so
doing so will benefit everyone in the area.

Of course I might spend or invest some of the money outside the area.
So a better idea is that everyone in the *world* pay me, until I'm a
billionaire. I'll spend, invest, or give away all the money somewhere
in the world, so doing so will benefit everyone in the world.

I'll start with the folks on this newsgroup. $20 (US) per day per
person should do for a start. Any preference whether I set up a
Paypal account or just have folks snail-mail me cash?

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> And if you're one of those people for whom gym class is a
>> soul-searing hell, I can see how that would do bad things
>> for your whole time in school.
>
> I agree.
>
>> Also empowering a class of people already physically stronger than
>> the other students to think they're gods and can get away with
>> anything they want often lowers the social tone of a school a lot.
>> It certainly makes it clear where actual school-work ranks in the
>> hierarchy.
>
> Exactly. As I mentioned, it was more than a decade after graduating
> high school before I was able to overcome my revulsion to exercise.

Despite not nearly so bad a school experience, I still haven't gotten
there.

> If schools want to combat obesity, I suggest they take the opposite
> approach: Force every student to spend an hour every day eating
> large amounts of really fattening food, whether they want to or not.
> The food should be distasteful, and any student who doesn't finish,
> or who vomits, should be punished by being forced to eat more, or
> even to repeat the whole "class" the following year.

I suspect that wouldn't be very popular.

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

Gym class was often *fun*.

How do you know you don't like Sport X unless you try it?
--
"Her name was Anne and I'll be damned if I recall her face
She left me not knowing what to do."
- Gordon Lightfoot

[Joy Beeson]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 11:29:27 -0700, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
> concerned.

One year I was allowed to substitute swimming lessons for gym class;
this was distinctly helpful, and I kept swimming whenever I got a
chance until I could no longer put up with the sinus infections.

Unfortunately, they jerked the credit for it out from under me at the
last minute and I had to take "getting a ball bounced off your face"
after all.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[rksh...@rosettacondot.com]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 11:29:27 -0700, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>> Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
>> concerned.
>
> One year I was allowed to substitute swimming lessons for gym class;
> this was distinctly helpful, and I kept swimming whenever I got a
> chance until I could no longer put up with the sinus infections.

My daughter's district allows this as well, provided that the
replacement provides a reasonable amount of physical activity and is
practiced each week for the same amount of time as gym class (obviously
not AT the same time as gym class.) My daughter is on a (non-school)
swim team so meeting the time requirement is not an issue.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Wed, 16 May 2012, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 May 2012, David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com>

>wrote:
>
>> Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
>> concerned.
>
>One year I was allowed to substitute swimming lessons for gym class;
>this was distinctly helpful, and I kept swimming whenever I got a
>chance until I could no longer put up with the sinus infections.
>
>Unfortunately, they jerked the credit for it out from under me at the
>last minute and I had to take "getting a ball bounced off your face"
>after all.

ObSnark: Obviously you needed to learn coordination.

[Seth]

In article <86a3r7hr7p7hrpu4j...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>
>Exercise helps the brain.

To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
exercise that helps the brain?

Seth

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 16:40:50, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>
>>Exercise helps the brain.
>
>To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
>exercise that helps the brain?

My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
--
"We are the Republican Party Reptiles. We look like Republicans, and
think like conservatives, but we drive a lot faster and keep vibrators
and baby oil and a video camera behind the stack of sweaters on the
bedroom closet shelf." P. J. O'Rourke

[Jette Goldie]

On 16/05/2012 18:59, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 16:40:50, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>
>> David Loewe, Jr.<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch"<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>> dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>>
>>> Exercise helps the brain.
>>
>> To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
>> exercise that helps the brain?
>
> My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.

I find a good walk in the fresh air helps my brain.

--
Jette Goldie
jgold...@btinternet.com

Living in the Future!

[David Loewe, Jr.]

That is the activity often mentioned. It is said to help stave off
mental deterioration in the aged (along with being something many can
actually *do*).
--
"The peak of the [Presidential] campaign happened in Albuquerque, where
a local reporter said to me, "Dr. Commoner, are you a serious candidate
or are you just running on the issues?""
Dr. Barry Commoner

[David Harmon]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 00:41:38 +0000 (UTC) in rec.arts.sf.fandom, "Keith
F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote,

>karl.j...@gmail.com <karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>> programs
>
>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.

Ditto. Not to mention the fog in my head for the next hour's class
afterwards. Of all the stupid things government schooling did to me,
mandatory gym class was among the worst. And I don't care if it "tends
to be" better for the average student or not.

[David Harmon]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:02:37 -0500 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, "David V.
Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

>On Wed, 16 May 2012, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Gym classes were pretty much a total waste of time so far as I was
>>> concerned.
>>
>>One year I was allowed to substitute swimming lessons for gym class;
>>this was distinctly helpful, and I kept swimming whenever I got a
>>chance until I could no longer put up with the sinus infections.
>>
>>Unfortunately, they jerked the credit for it out from under me at the
>>last minute and I had to take "getting a ball bounced off your face"
>>after all.
>
>ObSnark: Obviously you needed to learn coordination.

Obviously you need to learn getting a ball bounced off your face.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:11:52, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 May 2012 "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

I like the way I look.

Perhaps you should have learned to do a header with your forehead and
not your face. But it all comes back to that coordination thing, now
doesn't it?
--
"The moment you abandon the cardinal principle of exacting from all
individuals the same proportion of their income or of their property,
you are at sea without rudder or compass, and there is no amount of
injustice and folly you may not commit . . ."
- JR McCullough

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:04:28, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 May 2012 00:41:38 "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote,

>><karl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Students tend to do better in class if they also have exercise
>>> programs
>>
>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>
>Ditto. Not to mention the fog in my head for the next hour's class
>afterwards. Of all the stupid things government schooling did to me,
>mandatory gym class was among the worst. And I don't care if it "tends
>to be" better for the average student or not.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy...
--
"Oderint Dum Metuant."
- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

[David Harmon]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 12:59:35 -0500 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, "David V.
Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

>On Wed, 16 May 2012 16:40:50, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>
>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>>
>>>Exercise helps the brain.
>>
>>To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
>>exercise that helps the brain?
>
>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.

Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
real world experience.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 22:35:49, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

I take it you don't read medical studies. To bad. So sad.
--
"Everything is politics."
- Thomas Mann

[karl.j...@gmail.com]

On May 17, 5:51 am, "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 22:35:49, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

> >On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net> wrote,

> >>On Wed, 16 May 2012 16:40:50, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
> >>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>I'm skeptical.  I for one probably did worse in class because I was
> >>>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>
> >>>>Exercise helps the brain.
>
> >>>To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
> >>>exercise that helps the brain?
>
> >>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>
> >Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
> >real world experience.
>
> I take it you don't read medical studies.  To bad.  So sad.

When did you become a would be totalitarian dictator?

Karl Johanson

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Thu, 17 May 2012, "karl.j...@gmail.com" wrote:

>On May 17, "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> On Wed, 16 May 2012, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:
>> >On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net> wrote,

>> >>On Wed, 16 May 2012, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>> >>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>I'm skeptical.  I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>> >>>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>
>> >>>>Exercise helps the brain.
>>
>> >>>To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
>> >>>exercise that helps the brain?
>>
>> >>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>>
>> >Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
>> >real world experience.
>>

>> I take it you don't read medical studies.  Too bad.  So sad.

>
>When did you become a would be totalitarian dictator?

Apparently when I paraphrased Thomas Mann to David Harmon.

[Cryptoengineer]

On May 17, 1:29 pm, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net>
wrote:

Well, I guess Thomas Mann was being something of an ass. Or perhaps,
just the character he has mouthing this was. 'The Magic Mountain' is,
after all, a work of fiction. Which character says this? Not all of
them are sympathetic, or the author's voice.

pt



>   - Thomas Mann

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 12:15:51 -0700 (PDT), Cryptoengineer
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 17, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 May 2012, "karl.johan...@gmail.com" wrote:
>>>On May 17, "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 May 2012, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net> wrote,
>>>>>>On Wed, 16 May 2012, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>>>>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>On Tue, 15 May 2012, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>I'm skeptical. I for one probably did worse in class because I was
>>>>>>>>>dreading the upcoming gym class each day.
>>
>>>>>>>>Exercise helps the brain.
>>
>>>>>>>To what extent is a typical HS gym class optimized to be the sort of
>>>>>>>exercise that helps the brain?
>>
>>>>>>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>>
>>>>>Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
>>>>>real world experience.
>>
>>>> I take it you don't read medical studies. Too bad. So sad.
>>
>> >When did you become a would be totalitarian dictator?
>>
>> Apparently when I paraphrased Thomas Mann to David Harmon.
>> --
>> "Everything is politics."

>>   - Thomas Mann

>
>Well, I guess Thomas Mann was being something of an ass. Or perhaps,
>just the character he has mouthing this was. 'The Magic Mountain' is,
>after all, a work of fiction. Which character says this? Not all of
>them are sympathetic, or the author's voice.

Just how does noting that "Everything is politics." translate into being
an ass? Moreover, how does politics, which is a signature feature of a
Democracy, cause one to be a "Would-be totalitarian *dictator"?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Politics is a tool or a process - just like a computer is a tool.
Spamming, hacking and the dissemination of illicit material doesn't make
computers evil. Why is Harmon so intent on believing that a simple
process is evil simply because some do evil using it?
--
"The American public knows what it wants, and deserves to get it good
and hard."
- H. L. Mencken

[Jay E. Morris]

Obviously when he acquired some minions. I've been looking into getting
some myself but the upkeep is horrendous.

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

Minions? I thought it said minionions. Ah well...

I guess I'll have to cook those bad boys up. Homemade Mongolian Beef on
Saturday!
--
"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail
fast; for I intend to go in harm's way."
- John Paul Jones

[Seth]

In article <ylfkr4uk...@dd-b.net>,

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:

>> If schools want to combat obesity, I suggest they take the opposite
>> approach: Force every student to spend an hour every day eating
>> large amounts of really fattening food, whether they want to or not.
>> The food should be distasteful, and any student who doesn't finish,
>> or who vomits, should be punished by being forced to eat more, or
>> even to repeat the whole "class" the following year.
>
>I suspect that wouldn't be very popular.

That's the idea.

Seth

[Seth]

In article <UoKdnVerfoDNEynS...@earthlink.com>,

David Harmon <b...@example.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 May 2012 12:59:35 -0500 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, "David V.
>Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

>>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>
>Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
>real world experience.

How much real-world experience do you have of exercise not helping the
brain?

(I can give examples; there's an exercise known as "skullcrusher" for
good reason, and I doubt that dropping a 200 lb barbell on your head
is beneficial for the brain.)

Seth

[Seth]

In article <7olar7pua3ss2rii7...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Just how does noting that "Everything is politics." translate into being
>an ass? Moreover, how does politics, which is a signature feature of a
>Democracy, cause one to be a "Would-be totalitarian *dictator"?

I disagree that politics is "a signature feature of a Democracy". I
have little doubt there was plenty of politics going on in, say,
Soviet Russia and East Germany.

Seth

[Seth]

In article <5ba8r7dm0m176b003...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

It's still a counterexample, no matter what the reason for it being a
counterexample is.

Seth

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

And I disagree that being a signature feature of a Democracy prevents it
from occurring in other forms of governance.
--
"I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've
always worked for me."
- Hunter S. Thompson

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 02:51:59, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:

>David Harmon <b...@example.invalid> wrote:

>>On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

>
>>>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>>
>>Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
>>real world experience.
>
>How much real-world experience do you have of exercise not helping the
>brain?
>
>(I can give examples; there's an exercise known as "skullcrusher" for
>good reason, and I doubt that dropping a 200 lb barbell on your head
>is beneficial for the brain.)

Googling up this exercise, it does *not* involve your stated action.

<http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/BBLyingTriExtSC.html>

If you do it wrong, yes, that will happen, but doing it wrong is not
part and parcel of the specific exercise. Frex, if you go hunting,
there is possibility you could shoot somebody. That is, Dick Cheney not
withstanding, the purpose of the activity.
--
"I'm warning you: I'm very dangerous when I don't know what I'm doing..."
- The Fourth Doctor

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:

> On Tue, 22 May 2012 02:53:44, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>
>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Just how does noting that "Everything is politics." translate into being
>>>an ass? Moreover, how does politics, which is a signature feature of a
>>>Democracy, cause one to be a "Would-be totalitarian *dictator"?
>>
>>I disagree that politics is "a signature feature of a Democracy". I
>>have little doubt there was plenty of politics going on in, say,
>>Soviet Russia and East Germany.
>
> And I disagree that being a signature feature of a Democracy prevents it
> from occurring in other forms of governance.

Just what does "signature feature" mean to you? If politics is a
"signature feature of a democracy", I do think that means it's not
widespread in every other kind of government. To be a signature
feature, it need not be absolutely unique, but I think it has to be
particularly associated with democracy as distinguished from other kinds
of government. If in fact it's ubiquitous, NOT particularly assocated
with democracy, then I think it's wrong to call it a "signature
feature".
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 01:11:38, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 02:53:44, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Just how does noting that "Everything is politics." translate into being
>>>>an ass? Moreover, how does politics, which is a signature feature of a
>>>>Democracy, cause one to be a "Would-be totalitarian *dictator"?
>>>
>>>I disagree that politics is "a signature feature of a Democracy". I
>>>have little doubt there was plenty of politics going on in, say,
>>>Soviet Russia and East Germany.
>>
>> And I disagree that being a signature feature of a Democracy prevents it
>> from occurring in other forms of governance.
>
>Just what does "signature feature" mean to you? If politics is a
>"signature feature of a democracy", I do think that means it's not
>widespread in every other kind of government. To be a signature
>feature, it need not be absolutely unique, but I think it has to be
>particularly associated with democracy as distinguished from other kinds
>of government. If in fact it's ubiquitous, NOT particularly assocated
>with democracy, then I think it's wrong to call it a "signature
>feature".

Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so much
for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
--
"And the battle's just begun
There's many lost, but tell me who has won?
Trenches dug within our hearts,
And mothers, children, brothers, sisters torn apart"
Hewson & Evans

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

Proving that I really shouldn't post *that* late at night... that was
supposed to be "That is, Dick Cheney not withstanding, *not* the purpose
of the activity."
--
"Listen to the tide slowly turning
Wash all our heartaches away
We're part of the fire that is burning
And from the ashes we can build another day"
David J. Hayward

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

How is it a counterexample? Nobody said the benefits were immediate.

Even bed-ridden patients are supposed to have their limbs manipulated to
stimulate blood flow and muscle retention.
--
"To understand the workings of American politics, you have to
understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals
are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil."
- Charles Krauthammer

[Seth]

In article <9e3nr71liiogsr398...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so much
>for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.

But it is for a military junta or Communist Dictatorship.

Seth

[Seth]

In article <cp7mr7p54i3bk642m...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 22 May 2012 02:51:59, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>>David Harmon <b...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 16 May 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,
>>
>>>>My understanding is that *any* exercise helps the brain.
>>>Would-be totalitarian dictator's "understanding" trumps any amount of
>>>real world experience.
>>How much real-world experience do you have of exercise not helping the
>>brain?
>>(I can give examples; there's an exercise known as "skullcrusher" for
>>good reason, and I doubt that dropping a 200 lb barbell on your head
>>is beneficial for the brain.)
>
>Googling up this exercise, it does *not* involve your stated action.

Not if done correctly, anyway. But it has that nickname for a
reason. Darwin Award candidates abound.

><http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/BBLyingTriExtSC.html>
>
>If you do it wrong, yes, that will happen, but doing it wrong is not
>part and parcel of the specific exercise.

"Any exercise" includes doing it wrong.

> Frex, if you go hunting,
>there is possibility you could shoot somebody. That is, Dick Cheney not
>withstanding, the purpose of the activity.

^not

At least, sometimes.

Seth

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <9e3nr71liiogsr398...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.

Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
businesses, or other wealth.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 02:30:03, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so much
>>for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>
>But it is for a military junta or Communist Dictatorship.

So? I didn't say it was exclusive to a democracy.
--
"Soldiers, when I give the command to fire, fire straight at my heart.
Wait for the order. It will be my last to you. I protest against my
condemnation. I have fought a hundred battles for France, and not
one against her ... Soldiers, Fire!"
- the Last Words of Michel Ney

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>
>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>businesses, or other wealth.

But it is not a *requirement*.
--
"Seen through the glow of a building orgasm, a woman seems to
blaze with angelic glory."
Larry Niven - Ringworld

[Jette Goldie]

On 04/06/2012 13:36, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>
>> David Loewe, Jr.<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>> Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>> much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>
>> Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>> It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>> for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>> And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>> people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>> businesses, or other wealth.
>
> But it is not a *requirement*.

as in "required by the autocrat"? no, but I think you'd find it's pretty
much *required* anyway.


--
Jette Goldie
jgold...@btinternet.com

Living in the Future!

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012, Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 04/06/2012 13:36, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>> David Loewe, Jr.<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>> much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>
>>> Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>> It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>> for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>> And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>> people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>> businesses, or other wealth.
>>
>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>
>as in "required by the autocrat"?

No.

As in "required to make the system work as per theory."

>no, but I think you'd find it's pretty much *required* anyway.
--

"It? Come now. I am a female hominid, if not exactly the same species
as you. Surely I rate a she, at least."
- Gwendolyn Ingolfsson to Kenneth Lafarge in Drakon

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:

> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>
>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>
>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>businesses, or other wealth.
>
> But it is not a *requirement*.

Is it avoidable?

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:29:00, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>
>>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>>And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>>people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>>businesses, or other wealth.
>>
>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>
>Is it avoidable?

Doesn't matter.

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <eajqs71j6ekhscbkp...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:29:00, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not
>>>>>so much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>
>>>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the
>>>>autocrat). And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute
>>>>monarchies, people have power apart from the sovereign: they have
>>>>land, or businesses, or other wealth.
>>>
>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>
>>Is it avoidable?
>
>Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter for this reason:

In one case, you state that politics is a requirement. In the other
case, I assert that politics automatically and immediately happens.

I think "has politics" is not a useful basis for classification: it
happens whenever two or more people are gathered, and there's no point
in having a yes/no classification if the observed value is always
"yes". It's like arguing that H3O+ and OH- are not part of the
_definition_ of water: they always happen (if more than one molecule)
and they are crucial to the observed properties of water, so they
might as well be part of the definition.

The *type* of politics, amount, evolution, et cetera, do distinguish
them, and are of sometimes lethal importance. But not its presence.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:

> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:29:00, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>>>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>
>>>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>>>And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>>>people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>>>businesses, or other wealth.
>>>
>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>
>>Is it avoidable?
>
> Doesn't matter.

What's the difference between a requirement and an unavoidable
attribute?

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 03:48:47, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:29:00, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not
>>>>>>so much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>>
>>>>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the
>>>>>autocrat). And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute
>>>>>monarchies, people have power apart from the sovereign: they have
>>>>>land, or businesses, or other wealth.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>>
>>>Is it avoidable?
>>
>>Doesn't matter.
>
>I think it does matter for this reason:
>
>In one case, you state that politics is a requirement. In the other
>case, I assert that politics automatically and immediately happens.

You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
Can't we postulate something radically *different*?

Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
Colossus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project

I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.

>I think "has politics" is not a useful basis for classification: it
>happens whenever two or more people are gathered, and there's no point
>in having a yes/no classification if the observed value is always
>"yes". It's like arguing that H3O+ and OH- are not part of the
>_definition_ of water: they always happen (if more than one molecule)
>and they are crucial to the observed properties of water, so they
>might as well be part of the definition.
>
>The *type* of politics, amount, evolution, et cetera, do distinguish
>them, and are of sometimes lethal importance. But not its presence.
--

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 07:43:35, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:29:00, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>>>>much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>>
>>>>>Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>>>It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>>>for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>>>>And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>>>>people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>>>>businesses, or other wealth.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>>
>>>Is it avoidable?
>>
>> Doesn't matter.
>
>What's the difference between a requirement and an unavoidable
>attribute?

Cause and effect. They are different things. And I don't think the one
is unavoidable.

"A just machine to make big decisions
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision"
- Donald Fagen

[David Friedman]

In article <im3ss7tvgaisotic5...@4ax.com>,

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:

> You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
> Can't we postulate something radically *different*?
>
> Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
> Colossus?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
>
> I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.

If we are allowing sf scenarios, surely one can construct a democratic
scenario without politics as well--perhaps one in which the voters are
far enough apart so that they all send in their votes without
communicating with each other to a computer that, having set up the
election, then counts votes and acts accordingly.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:45:19, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
>> Can't we postulate something radically *different*?
>>
>> Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
>> Colossus?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
>>
>> I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.
>
>If we are allowing sf scenarios, surely one can construct a democratic
>scenario without politics as well--perhaps one in which the voters are
>far enough apart so that they all send in their votes without
>communicating with each other to a computer that, having set up the
>election, then counts votes and acts accordingly.

If they can send in the votes, they can communicate.
--
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser
than a million men,
Let's play that one over again, too. Who decides?"
-Lazarus Long

[David Friedman]

In article <pnnss71hm045vv179...@4ax.com>,

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:45:19, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >> You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
> >> Can't we postulate something radically *different*?
> >>
> >> Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
> >> Colossus?
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
> >>
> >> I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.
> >
> >If we are allowing sf scenarios, surely one can construct a democratic
> >scenario without politics as well--perhaps one in which the voters are
> >far enough apart so that they all send in their votes without
> >communicating with each other to a computer that, having set up the
> >election, then counts votes and acts accordingly.
>
> If they can send in the votes, they can communicate.

Not necessarily with each other.

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:43:39, David Friedman

<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:45:19, David Friedman
>> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> > "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
>> >> Can't we postulate something radically *different*?
>> >>
>> >> Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
>> >> Colossus?
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
>> >>
>> >> I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.
>> >
>> >If we are allowing sf scenarios, surely one can construct a democratic
>> >scenario without politics as well--perhaps one in which the voters are
>> >far enough apart so that they all send in their votes without
>> >communicating with each other to a computer that, having set up the
>> >election, then counts votes and acts accordingly.
>>
>> If they can send in the votes, they can communicate.
>
>Not necessarily with each other.

"You can't stop the signal, Mal..."

[David Friedman]

In article <ptqss7lufhsms087m...@4ax.com>,

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:43:39, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:45:19, David Friedman
> >> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >> > "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> You assume something not in evidence. ;-) This *is* rasff after all.
> >> >> Can't we postulate something radically *different*?
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you think you could play political games to gain the favor of
> >> >> Colossus?
> >> >>
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd call the world depicted in the movie and books an autocracy.
> >> >
> >> >If we are allowing sf scenarios, surely one can construct a democratic
> >> >scenario without politics as well--perhaps one in which the voters are
> >> >far enough apart so that they all send in their votes without
> >> >communicating with each other to a computer that, having set up the
> >> >election, then counts votes and acts accordingly.
> >>
> >> If they can send in the votes, they can communicate.
> >
> >Not necessarily with each other.
>
> "You can't stop the signal, Mal..."

This is sf. The humans are interstellar travelers going off in lots of
directions, each of them with a communication device that links only to
the voting computer back on the home planet--and the voting computer
doesn't forward messages.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:46:51, David Friedman

Except for Mr. Universe hacking the signal to sending it out to
everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_%28film%29
--
"I aim to misbehave."
Malcolm Reynolds

[Seth]

In article <9b3qs754a1qpervni...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012, Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On 04/06/2012 13:36, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>> David Loewe, Jr.<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>>> much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>
>>>> Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>> It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>> for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>>> And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>>> people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>>> businesses, or other wealth.
>>>
>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>
>>as in "required by the autocrat"?
>
>No.
>
>As in "required to make the system work as per theory."

Then it isn't a requirement in a democracy, either. It just happens
with very high probability.

Seth

[Jette Goldie]

how do they know what they are voting on and for?

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 21:45:13, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012, Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On 04/06/2012 13:36, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:47:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>>>>> David Loewe, Jr.<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Politics is, more or less, a *requirement* of a Democracy. Not so
>>>>>> much for an Autocracy or Absolute Monarchy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Politics always occurs in an autocracy and absolute monarchy.
>>>>> It's competing for the favor of the autocrat, or politicking
>>>>> for/against other people who have power (derived from the autocrat).
>>>>> And even in most traditional autocracies or absolute monarchies,
>>>>> people have power apart from the sovereign: they have land, or
>>>>> businesses, or other wealth.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not a *requirement*.
>>>
>>>as in "required by the autocrat"?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>As in "required to make the system work as per theory."
>
>Then it isn't a requirement in a democracy, either. It just happens
>with very high probability.

I think might want to go back and look again at my definition of
politics.
--
"Everything is politics."
- Thomas Mann

[David Friedman]

In article <jqlva5$c22$1...@dont-email.me>,

Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > This is sf. The humans are interstellar travelers going off in lots of
> > directions, each of them with a communication device that links only to
> > the voting computer back on the home planet--and the voting computer
> > doesn't forward messages.
> >
>
>
> how do they know what they are voting on and for?

The voting computer tells them.

[David Harmon]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:35:34 -0500 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, "David V.
Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

So somehow "Everything" is more of a requirement in a democracy than in
a autocracy? Gibberish.

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 06:12:05, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Jun 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote,

>>On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 21:45:13, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>>
>>>Then it isn't a requirement in a democracy, either. It just happens
>>>with very high probability.
>>
>>I think might want to go back and look again at my definition of
>>politics.
>>--
>>"Everything is politics."
>> - Thomas Mann
>
>So somehow "Everything" is more of a requirement in a democracy than in
>a autocracy? Gibberish.

It is unsurprising to me that you, with the massive onus you have on for
me, at least state that you don't understand.

One system requires group decisions. The other, while actively using
the process due to the mammalian and primate nature of humans, does not.
An autocrat, *can*, in theory, make decisions on his own without giving
a hoot in hell about the consequences to others.
--
"I - I don't believe it, There she goes again
She's tidied up, and I can't find anything
All my tubes and wires, And careful notes
And antiquated notions..."
Thomas "Dolby" Robertson

[David Friedman]

In article <g7e1t7p3el2h4oiq2...@4ax.com>,

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> An autocrat, *can*, in theory, make decisions on his own without giving
> a hoot in hell about the consequences to others.

Outside of some sf scenario where the autocrat gives orders to an all
powerful computer, that simply isn't true. The autocrat has to apply his
power via other human beings. So he has the problem of making it in each
person's interest, via his influence over other people, to do what the
autocrat wants.

To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
monarch.

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 09:37:02, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> An autocrat, *can*, in theory, make decisions on his own without giving
>> a hoot in hell about the consequences to others.
>
>Outside of some sf scenario where the autocrat gives orders to an all
>powerful computer, that simply isn't true. The autocrat has to apply his
>power via other human beings. So he has the problem of making it in each
>person's interest, via his influence over other people, to do what the
>autocrat wants.
>
>To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
>monarch.

This would be why I stuck "in theory" in up there.

It is quite amusingly frustrating that Keith can write that "a few"
people will be made homeless by each and every property tax increase and
have people like yourself explain that - oh, he didn't mean that he
meant a continuum - while when I stick clear caveats into my statements
they are run over as if by a freight train. What's up with that?
--
"When it is broken down, the philosophy of environmentalism is the
philosophy of life on earth without humanity at all. Green becomes
the color of a forest that grows over unmarked graves."
Michelle Minton

[David Goldfarb]

In article <g7e1t7p3el2h4oiq2...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>the massive onus you have on for me

I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.

--
David Goldfarb |"It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I
goldf...@gmail.com |explain where you're wrong you're supposed to
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |become enlightened and change your mind.
|Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional."
| -- Karl Johanson

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>the massive onus you have on for me
>
>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.

It doesn't mean burden?

<looks>

Why, yes. Yes it does.

Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?
--
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all."
- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose

[Philip Chee]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:12:42 -0500, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
> wrote:
>
>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>
>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>
> It doesn't mean burden?
>
> <looks>
>
> Why, yes. Yes it does.
>
> Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?

Perhaps what you said isn't what you thought you said?
(I read it the same way as David Goldfarb)

Phil

--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.

[Cryptoengineer]

On Jun 7, 10:25 am, "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 06:12:05, David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote:

> >On Tue, 05 Jun 2012, "David V. Loewe, Jr" <davelo...@charter.net> wrote,

> >>On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 21:45:13, se...@panix.com (Seth) wrote:
>
> >>>Then it isn't a requirement in a democracy, either.  It just happens
> >>>with very high probability.
>
> >>I think might want to go back and look again at my definition of
> >>politics.
> >>--
> >>"Everything is politics."
> >>  - Thomas Mann
>
> >So somehow "Everything" is more of a requirement in a democracy than in
> >a autocracy?  Gibberish.
>
> It is unsurprising to me that you, with the massive onus you have on for
> me, at least state that you don't understand.
>
> One system requires group decisions.  The other, while actively using
> the process due to the mammalian and primate nature of humans, does not.
> An autocrat, *can*, in theory, make decisions on his own without giving
> a hoot in hell about the consequences to others.

Odd, why do you take a translated, out-of-context assertion by a
fictional character in a 1920's novel (Mann's "Der Zauberberg'), as
gospel? The book has many characters, whose positions are quite at
odds with each other.

Do you expect us to take it as truth, because it has been printed?

pt

[David Goldfarb]

In article <lv14t7pr7etu9sf2v...@4ax.com>,

David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>wrote:
>
>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>
>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>
>It doesn't mean burden?
>
><looks>
>
>Why, yes. Yes it does.
>
>Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?

That you were misusing the word seemed more probable than that you
had written a phrase that makes no sense. I stand corrected, then:
I should not assume that things you write necessarily make sense.

--
David Goldfarb |"I'm sorry officer, but ever since I started
goldf...@gmail.com | wearing the Wonderbra I've been inexplicably
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | drawn around town preventing crimes."
| -- Bizarro

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:47:05, Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:12:42 -0500, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>> wrote:
>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>>
>>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>>
>> It doesn't mean burden?
>>
>> <looks>
>>
>> Why, yes. Yes it does.
>>
>> Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?
>
>Perhaps what you said isn't what you thought you said?
>(I read it the same way as David Goldfarb)

It doesn't mean burden?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onus

Why, yes. Yes it *does*.
--
"You roll out of bed, Mr. Coffee's dead - The morning's looking bright
And your priest ran off to Europe - And didn't even write
And your husband wants to be a girl ....."
Gary Portney

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 06:23:50, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)

wrote:

>David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>>wrote:
>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>>
>>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>>
>>It doesn't mean burden?
>>
>><looks>
>>
>>Why, yes. Yes it does.
>>
>>Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?
>
>That you were misusing the word seemed more probable than that you
>had written a phrase that makes no sense. I stand corrected, then:
>I should not assume that things you write necessarily make sense.

To *you*

More to the point - you were expecting one thing and got something else.
You let your instincts get ahead of your thought.
--
"For progressives, the goal is not ultimately to create more tax
revenue for the government, but to equalize the income of the
citizenry."
- Gregory V. Helvering

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

I take it as truth because I believe it is truth and I've defended my
interpretation more than adequately, IMO. At least one (possibly more -
I am not going to wade through this thread to find days old posts) other
poster is in general agreement with me.

How you wish to take it is up to you.

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <c3j6t7lb586qk6eet...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 06:23:50, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>wrote:
>
>>David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>>>wrote:
>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>the massive onus you have on for me

...

>>>It doesn't mean burden?

...

>>That you were misusing the word seemed more probable than that you
>>had written a phrase that makes no sense. I stand corrected, then:
>>I should not assume that things you write necessarily make sense.
>
>To *you*

To anyone.
"The massive burden you have on for me" make no sense either.
In English, you don't have a "burden for" someone, except in the sense
of "I'm carrying this burden for my mother, because she is frail."
In English, you don't have a "burden on" except in the locative sense:
"Put your burden on the table."

"The way you feel massively burdened by my replies" is the closest
intelligible interpretation I can think of, but that's pretty far from
the original.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[David Friedman]

In article <o0o1t7pja4lpcqttn...@4ax.com>,

"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:

> >To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
> >monarch.
>
> This would be why I stuck "in theory" in up there.

And there is a similarly simplistic theory of democracy in which
everyone votes in the common interest--no politicing required.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

Author of _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_

[David Dyer-Bennet]

gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:

> In article <lv14t7pr7etu9sf2v...@4ax.com>,
> David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>>
>>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>>
>>It doesn't mean burden?
>>
>><looks>
>>
>>Why, yes. Yes it does.
>>
>>Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?
>
> That you were misusing the word seemed more probable than that you
> had written a phrase that makes no sense. I stand corrected, then:
> I should not assume that things you write necessarily make sense.

"Nonsense must be wrong!" ("Wimpy", David Audley's classics master and
biological father, to generations of British school children, from the
Anthony Price books.) Basically, the great Latin and Greek authors do
NOT write nonsense, so if your translation is nonsense, it must be wrong.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> writes:

> On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:47:05, Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:12:42 -0500, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>>> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>>> wrote:
>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>>>>
>>>>I do not think the word "onus" means what you think it does.
>>>
>>> It doesn't mean burden?
>>>
>>> <looks>
>>>
>>> Why, yes. Yes it does.
>>>
>>> Perhaps what I said isn't what you think I said?
>>
>>Perhaps what you said isn't what you thought you said?
>>(I read it the same way as David Goldfarb)
>
> It doesn't mean burden?
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onus
>
> Why, yes. Yes it *does*.

Not in a simplistic replace-one-with-the-other way, it doesn't. That's
not how it's used. Dictionaries, especially random online ones, are not
very good for usage of words.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <c3j6t7lb586qk6eet...@4ax.com>,

David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 06:23:50, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>wrote:
>
>>David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:12:31, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
>>>wrote:
>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>

>More to the point - you were expecting one thing and got something else.
>You let your instincts get ahead of your thought.

I wasn't expecting anything. I was trying to read what you wrote.
What you wrote makes no sense.

--
David Goldfarb |"Backward, turn backward, O time in your flight!
goldf...@gmail.com | I've thought of a comeback I needed last night."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dorothy Parker

[Keith F. Lynch]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> Basically, the great Latin and Greek authors do NOT write nonsense,
> so if your translation is nonsense, it must be wrong.

ObFandom: At last night's PRSFS meeting, someone reviewed Caesar's
_Gallic Wars_.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <jr0g3i$l4k$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> Basically, the great Latin and Greek authors do NOT write nonsense,
>> so if your translation is nonsense, it must be wrong.
>
>ObFandom: At last night's PRSFS meeting, someone reviewed Caesar's
>_Gallic Wars_.

I believe that's _War_, singular.

--
David Goldfarb | "M as in Mary, P as in Paul, U as in...
goldf...@gmail.com | um...something beginning with U."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |

[David Loewe, Jr.]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:39:42, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> >To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
>> >monarch.
>>
>> This would be why I stuck "in theory" in up there.
>
>And there is a similarly simplistic theory of democracy in which
>everyone votes in the common interest--no politicing required.

Ah, but what *is* the "common interest"? Without politicking, you have
no idea. All you know is your *own* best interest.
--
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible
you may be mistaken."
- Oliver Cromwell

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:18:35, tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:

>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) wrote:
>>>David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:

>>>>On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) wrote:
>>>>>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>the massive onus you have on for me
>...
>>>>It doesn't mean burden?
>...
>>>That you were misusing the word seemed more probable than that you
>>>had written a phrase that makes no sense. I stand corrected, then:
>>>I should not assume that things you write necessarily make sense.
>>
>>To *you*
>
>To anyone.
>"The massive burden you have on for me" make no sense either.
>In English, you don't have a "burden for" someone, except in the sense
>of "I'm carrying this burden for my mother, because she is frail."
>In English, you don't have a "burden on" except in the locative sense:
>"Put your burden on the table."

He has put a burden on me.

In the words of Melville (and quoted by Khan) "He tasks me, and I shall
have him."

>"The way you feel massively burdened by my replies" is the closest
>intelligible interpretation I can think of, but that's pretty far from
>the original.
--

"It is hard to believe that a man is telling the truth when you know
that you would lie if you were in his place."
- Robert Heinlein

[David Friedman]

In article <7ds7t716idtn422to...@4ax.com>,

"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:39:42, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
> >> >monarch.
> >>
> >> This would be why I stuck "in theory" in up there.
> >
> >And there is a similarly simplistic theory of democracy in which
> >everyone votes in the common interest--no politicing required.
>
> Ah, but what *is* the "common interest"? Without politicking, you have
> no idea. All you know is your *own* best interest.

You may not even know that, in the real world.

But in the simplistic model of democracy, the common interest is
obvious, so everyone votes for it.

And in a realistic model of an autocracy, the autocrat isn't infinitely
powerful, so must act through other people.

[David Friedman]

In article <jr0g3i$l4k$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> > Basically, the great Latin and Greek authors do NOT write nonsense,
> > so if your translation is nonsense, it must be wrong.
>
> ObFandom: At last night's PRSFS meeting, someone reviewed Caesar's
> _Gallic Wars_.

As fiction?

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:34:42, David Friedman

<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

> "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:39:42, David Friedman
>> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> > "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >To take a simple example, consider Bierce's definition of an absolute
>> >> >monarch.
>> >>
>> >> This would be why I stuck "in theory" in up there.
>> >
>> >And there is a similarly simplistic theory of democracy in which
>> >everyone votes in the common interest--no politicing required.
>>
>> Ah, but what *is* the "common interest"? Without politicking, you have
>> no idea. All you know is your *own* best interest.
>
>You may not even know that, in the real world.
>
>But in the simplistic model of democracy, the common interest is
>obvious, so everyone votes for it.

I would argue that, if the common interest were obvious, it would
*already* be law.

>And in a realistic model of an autocracy, the autocrat isn't infinitely
>powerful, so must act through other people.
--

"Isn't life strange
A turn of the page
A book without light
Unless with love we write"
John Lodge

[Keith F. Lynch]

David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> ObFandom: At last night's PRSFS meeting, someone reviewed Caesar's
>> _Gallic Wars_.

> As fiction?

No. People are also allowed to review books on history, science,
biography (of someone related to SF or science), mythology, or pretty
much anything else that members are interested in. The only firm
rule is that no non-books (movies, conventions, TV shows, etc.) can
be reviewed until everyone who has a book to review has done so.

My interests lean toward hard SF, the physical sciences, and math,
but I'm also interested in history. But lots of other members are
more interested in fantasy, history, mythology, graphic novels, and
linguistics. One member's main interest seems to be coin collecting.

I reviewed Flint & Spoor's _Boundary_, which I had recently reread in
preparation for reading its sequel _Threshold_, which just came out in
paperback. I plan to review _Threshold_ at next month's PRSFS meeting.