2022's proposed condemnation of 2023's GOH

[Keith F. Lynch]

D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko

Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.

Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale,
Dave Farmer, and Chuck Serface

https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
>
> Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
> solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
> Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
> Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
> This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
> platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
> fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
> is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
>
> Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
> Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale,
> Dave Farmer, and Chuck Serface
>
> https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf

What's the status of that resolution and the other resolutions in the
document? Do they get voted on at the Chicon business meeting?

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> What's the status of that resolution and the other resolutions in
> the document? Do they get voted on at the Chicon business meeting?

Yes. All attending members who are present in person are free to
vote in the business meeting. (Members are also free to propose
new business, but the deadline for that has passed.) But nothing
decided is binding on any future Worldcons unless it's ratified by
the business meeting at the immediately following Worldcon.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/9/22 7:22 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> What's the status of that resolution and the other resolutions in
>> the document? Do they get voted on at the Chicon business meeting?
>
> Yes. All attending members who are present in person are free to
> vote in the business meeting. (Members are also free to propose
> new business, but the deadline for that has passed.) But nothing
> decided is binding on any future Worldcons unless it's ratified by
> the business meeting at the immediately following Worldcon.

In this case, the resolution doesn't bind any con to anything; it "asks"
the Chengdu committee to drop Lukianenko. Anyway, by the time it can be
ratified in Chengdu, it would be too late. It's just a
sense-of-the-meeting resolution.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

> D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
>
> Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
> solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
> Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
> Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
> This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
> platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
> fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
> is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.

> https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf

The resolution before that is more problematic:

Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to

offer solidarity with Ukrainian Fans, recognizing that
Ukraine has been invaded by fascists. We encourage all
to boycott those who would platform or champion the
illegal invasion. The Business Meeting looks forward
to a return of freedom and fandom to Ukraine.

The first issue is technical. Russia's government is autocratic but
doesn't have a lot of the characteristics that are distinctive to
fascism. The business structure isn't, as far as I know, an organic
extension of the state. The characteristic fascist drive for
nationalistic unity isn't very strong; it can't be, considering how
ethnically fragmented Russia is.

This isn't so important; I know a lot of people use "fascist" for "bad"
these days. What concerns me more is the call for boycotting anyone who
"platforms" the invasion. That expression is senseless, but I'm guessing
it means that no one should provide an opportunity for advocates of the
invasion to speak, and anyone who provides one needs to be boycotted.

To answer Russia's alleged case for invasion, it's necessary to hear it.
Those answering it have to quote it; is that "platforming"? Some
Facebook posts have been taken down for quoting statements or linking to
videos that they want to rebut.

What about pointing out Ukrainian violations of human rights (e.g., not
letting people leave the country) or questionable alliances (the Azov
battalion)? Are sites that allow such statements "platforming"? Should
they be boycotted?

The resolution is too vague and broad.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> In this case, the resolution doesn't bind any con to anything; it
> "asks" the Chengdu committee to drop Lukianenko. Anyway, by the
> time it can be ratified in Chengdu, it would be too late. It's just
> a sense-of-the-meeting resolution.

Right. Except that Chengdu *will* have to vote on it, assuming it
passes in Chicago, and that Chengdu follows the rules. If they place
their business meeting on Youtube for all to see, as all recent
Worldcons have done, we'll all be able to see for ourselves what
they have to say about it, and whether anyone argues for it. (Of
course the meeting may be entirely in Chinese.)

It's interesting to watch these videos. It's democracy in action,
and it actually works pretty well. I just checked to confirm that
last year's business meeting is still online. It is. At 6:30 of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIEIZhuonsA you can see me walk out
of the business meeting as soon as Chengdu's representative takes
the microphone. You can also see what I couldn't see at the time,
as I didn't look back -- nobody else walked out.

[Tim Illingworth]

On 8/10/2022 12:01 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> In this case, the resolution doesn't bind any con to anything; it
>> "asks" the Chengdu committee to drop Lukianenko. Anyway, by the
>> time it can be ratified in Chengdu, it would be too late. It's just
>> a sense-of-the-meeting resolution.
>
> Right. Except that Chengdu *will* have to vote on it, assuming it
> passes in Chicago, and that Chengdu follows the rules.

It's just a resolution. Only Constitutional amendments need
ratification, so no vote in Chengdu.

Tim

[Magewolf]

Fascist ,much like Nazi, does not really have a meaning apart from what
you call people you disagree with nowadays. And the rest is just an
outgrowth of the idea that "no one who we disagree with should be allowed
to speak out because they might influence the stupid sheep who are
supposed to follow our orders".

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Magewolf <Mage...@nc.rr.com> wrote in
news:td12r9$1ttqp$1...@dont-email.me:

"Because it isn't possible to disagree with us unless you're
mentally ill or evil."

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <td12r9$1ttqp$1...@dont-email.me>,

(Hal Heydt)
Well.... *Technically* it's a reference to the Roman fasces,
usually as adopted by Mussolini as a symbol for his governing
party. So formally, the fascists were Italians.

[Magewolf]

Yes,fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen
fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to
actual Nazis.

[Tim Merrigan]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 20:14:05 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
<Mage...@nc.rr.com> wrote:

>Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen

>fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to
>actual Nazis.

First a disclaimer: I have heard that the Italian Fascist Party still
exists, headed by Mussolini's daughter, and held a few seats in
Italy's parliament a few years ago.

My understanding is that when one removes the racism (small f) fascism
is essentially government of the industrialists, by the
industrialists, and for the industrialists.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Well.... *Technically* it's a reference to the Roman fasces,
>usually as adopted by Mussolini as a symbol for his governing
>party. So formally, the fascists were Italians.

Yes, precisely. My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of
Il Duce hanging up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to
explain this for security reviews at work was always an adventure since
the security people were all too young to know what fascism was...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Keith F. Lynch]

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
> up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
> security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
> people were all too young to know what fascism was...

Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
wearing.)

[Scott Dorsey]

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>> My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
>> up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
>> security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
>> people were all too young to know what fascism was...
>
>Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
>random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
>(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
>wearing.)

They would ask the usual question about whether one had been in contact
with people who may espouse anti-American views and I would state that
I saw my grandmother and she was a Fascist and then the questions went on...

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <td45qb$3v7$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

(Hal Heydt)
The form of the question has changed in recent years, but I used
to have an interesting time with medical history questions when
they asked if any of my relatives had had TB. My answer was,
"Yes, but you don't care." At that point, they'd want an
explanation and I would state that my paternal grandfather
had died from TB...in 1917. At that point, the person who asked
the quesion would agree that they did, in fact, not care.

[Jay E. Morris]

Graduating college through ROTC in the late seventies our form included
the question, has any member of your family served in the military?
Friend answered yes. What branch? Army. Did they receive any awards?
Iron Cross.

[Tim Merrigan]

I'm reminded of a scene in one of the first few episodes of Lost as
the crash survivors are assessing their resources, and one the men
mentions that he'd fought in the Gulf War, without going any further
than that. After a while, while comparing notes, and talking around
the campfire some of the other men ask what unit he'd been in, and he,
a little reluctantly, says "The Republican Guard."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <td48cc$2aaee$1...@dont-email.me>,

Jay E. Morris <mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>

(Hal Heydt)
Both Dorothy and I could answer "yes" to that question with a lot
of variations...

Her father was a civilian instructor of flight cadets. The Army
Air Corps in its infinite wisdom decided that all instructors had
to be military officers, so he was drafted, sent through basic
traning, then OCS ("90 day wonder"), and then back to what he'd
been doing.

She had an uncle (note...ONE generation back!) who was a pilot in
the Lafayette Escadrille. We have a postcard he wrote home
indicating that France was very nice, but he didn't care for the
food.

My father went into the Navy out of high school in 1927 for 6
years and later enlisted in the Maritime Service as an officer
candidate, starting training in January 1942. I know of two
medals. One was the Maritime Service WW2 victory medal. The
other one, which some people have looked at and then asked if it
is even US, was for "service in the US merchant fleet during the
national emergency from 1 Sept 1939 until 6 Dec 1941". It was
given by the War Shipping Administration. He sailed commercially
from the late '30s up until he signed off the last tanker he
served on (as the engineering officer) on 6 Dec 1941.

He left the Maritime Service in June 1954 as a Lt. Commander.

His grandfather served in a Civil War Cavalry unit. Family
stories are somewhat unclear. He may have been an officer. The
unfortunate part is that it was a Confederate unit.

Going back farther, one ancestor started out as a Lieutenant in
the South Carolina Navy during the US revolution. Shortly later,
he was given command of a 16-gun Brig'o'War (about the smallest
warship there was). He was about 20 when he took command. Since,
over the course of three years, his ship was involved in the
capture, recapture, or sinking of some 63 vessels, I dare say he
must have gotten some recognition.

[Gary McGath]

On 8/11/22 4:51 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 20:14:05 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
> <Mage...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen
>> fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to
>> actual Nazis.
>
> First a disclaimer: I have heard that the Italian Fascist Party still
> exists, headed by Mussolini's daughter, and held a few seats in
> Italy's parliament a few years ago.
>
> My understanding is that when one removes the racism (small f) fascism
> is essentially government of the industrialists, by the
> industrialists, and for the industrialists.

There's an element of truth in this, but the Italian word "corporati" as
used by the Fascists confuses things. They were talking about a form of
syndicalism where citizens' organizations carry out the supposed
national will at the level of communities, trades, and businesses. It
seems to include corporations but isn't limited to them.

Italian Fascism wasn't particularly racist at first, though it became
more so under Nazi influence.

[Kevrob]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 6:23:55 AM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 8/11/22 4:51 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 20:14:05 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
> > <Mage...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen
> >> fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to
> >> actual Nazis.
> >
> > First a disclaimer: I have heard that the Italian Fascist Party still
> > exists, headed by Mussolini's daughter, and held a few seats in
> > Italy's parliament a few years ago.
> >
> > My understanding is that when one removes the racism (small f) fascism
> > is essentially government of the industrialists, by the
> > industrialists, and for the industrialists.
> There's an element of truth in this, but the Italian word "corporati" as
> used by the Fascists confuses things. They were talking about a form of
> syndicalism where citizens' organizations carry out the supposed
> national will at the level of communities, trades, and businesses. It
> seems to include corporations but isn't limited to them.
>

It makes sense in this context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

> Italian Fascism wasn't particularly racist at first, though it became
> more so under Nazi influence.
> --

--
Kevin R

[evelynchim...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 8:54:39 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> Graduating college through ROTC in the late seventies our form included
> the question, has any member of your family served in the military?
> Friend answered yes. What branch? Army. Did they receive any awards?
> Iron Cross.

Sounds like a bit in a novel (which I won't name, to avoid spoiling it)
where someone's neighbor talks about having been in Auschwitz. After he
has garnered a lot of sympathy et al it is discovered that he was there
as a guard.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

[Gary McGath]

On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

> D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
>
> Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
> solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
> Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
> Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
> This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
> platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
> fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
> is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
>
> Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
> Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale,
> Dave Farmer, and Chuck Serface
>
> https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf

Update: The resolution passed. The one calling for a boycott of anyone
who "platforms" the invasion also passed.

https://file770.com/eph-re-ratified-pro-ukraine-and-anti-lukianenko-resolutions-passed-by-chicon-8-business-meeting/

[Magewolf]

Can not let that wrong-think get out there it might confuse the sheep.