dragon con (my review in brief)
Gary Farber
In <33bb99d6...@news.atl.mindspring.com> Michael Dillson
<dil...@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.fandom.cons:
: gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
: <snip>
: :>More than shocking, it would be inconceivable if Dragon*Con were to be
: :>considered a normal sf con. No party board? No party listings? No
: :>parties listed in the daily newsletter? No bid parties? Perhaps there
: :>were private or closed parties (which won't do sufficiently for a large
: :>con for most people, of course)?
: But, Gary, how can you say this, you weren't there.
Michael, you're an intelligent and literate fellow, so I trust that you
understand what "question marks" signify, even if you seem to be asking a
question without use of one. I was asking if these were present.
: First of all, there
: was a party board, right across from registration that remained, as far as
: I could tell, full of party fliers the entire weekend.
Excellent; glad for Dragon*Con's sake to hear this. So what happened that
all these folks are complaining of not finding any parties? Were they all
incompetent to find these parties, do you think, or can you suggest a
reason for their statements?
: Parties weren't
: listed in the daily 'zine due, I guess, to an oversight of the editor.
That would seem a pretty major oversight, I would think. Parties being a
main point of a con, this seems to be either only secondary to saying
"program wasn't mentioned in the daily 'zine due, I guess, to an oversight
of the editor," or a comment on the priority of the social aspects of
fandom to D*C. I can't say: you tell me.
: Bid
: parties tend to avoid Dragon*Con like the plague because of the opinions of
: people like you and Kevin Standley.
I can only speculate that people think, rightly or wrongly, that a small
enough percentage of Dragon*Con attendees is sufficiently involved in
fandom to be voting for the Worldcon that spending money on a bid party at
Dragon*Con is not worth the money. It is possible, of course, for other
reasons to be operative, but all that occur to me would tend to suggest
lack of familiarity or appreciation of Dragon*Con from the POV of general
con-going fans, I guess. I don't mean this to be insulting: it's simply
the only logic that occurs to me; I welcome alternative suggestions or
speculations, and would be quite curious to hear them, in fact.
It's "Standlee," by the way, and he and I only met for the first time at
the past Boskone, so any opinions we have in common were most assuredly
formed by our entirely independent involvements in fandom.
: The main problem with parties in a convention this size is who the heck can
: afford to throw a party for 18,000 people? My budget for a Chattacon party
: is about $125. This would last about fifteen minutes in a convention the
: size of Dragon*Con. Also, a lot of the staff of local conventions *work*
: at Dragon*Con. Have you ever tried to throw a party at a convention where
: you work?
People manage it at Worldcon, but your point about throwing an open party
at a con for 18,000 (is this now the new attendance figure?: how does that
break down?) makes some sense. For me, this is a huge reason why I
wouldn't want to attend an 18,000 person sf exposition, but I stress that
I have no problem with other people enjoying it and having different
preferences than me: this is purely a personal preference.
[. . .]
: As I told you at ROC, Dragon*Con doesn't fit the mold for any "traditional"
: SF con. Ghod knows, we've said that often enough. Heck, I don't know if
: I'd enjoy *going* to one of these monsters. It's just too big.
Well, if you say so. ;-) I *can* understand the challenge of working on
it, to be sure; I have not the faintest doubt of what an "interesting"
experience it must be. ;-)
[. . .]
: :>Of course, many people obviously enjoy it, or they wouldn't pay to return,
: :>so I doubt the people running it see any reason to change the expo; I
: :>still think it would be awfully nice if they made their books public,
: :>though, like Worldcon and most honest sf cons do;
: ^^^^^^
: And exactly what the hell is this supposed to imply?
What it says: it would be awfully nice if they made their books publc,
though, like Worldcon and most honest sf cons do. That's a preference
("it would be awfully nice") and a factual statement ("if they made their
books public, though, like Worldcon and most honest sf cons do"): you
can't argue with my preference, though you may have another, and you can't
deny that the latter is a factual statement, can you? It's part of the
WSFS Constitution that the books are examinable by any fan who inquires:
simple fact. And, obviously there are dishonest "sf cons," which are
designed so that their chief goal is to turn a personal profit for the
organizers, such as the infamous Creation "cons": also simple fact.
: First of all, I think
: you've got a lot of goddamned gaul to even hint at such a thing!
I think you're being awfully sensitive to read any implications into what
I said beyond what I said. Why so touchy about a common convention
practice?
[. . .[
: Not all conventions are going to run the way you want them
: too.
Of course not. I'll feel free to editorialize and agitate for what I
think is right and good, along with my mere personal preferences, though,
just as any and all fans do. You are invited to do likewise, and I don't
observe that you are shy about your opinions, either.
: If you haven't noticed, traditional SF conventions are having *real*
: problems making ends meet. Almost monthly, I hear the tales of fledgling,
: and even veteran, conventions closing their doors because they can't get
: the attendence to continue operating. I think it's great that a convention
: manages to survive in any form. I'm not going to sit by and let you impugn
: the convention's and, through inference, my reputation.
Say what? Are saying that having open books would damage a convention's
ability to break-even? That's either a mighty bizarre claim, or a
complete and classic red herring.
: :>it would give
: :>Dragon*Con's non-profit claims a hell of a lot more credibility.
: Since it's a privately-held corporation, operated as non-profit,
: information of this type is not public.
Yes, that's my point.
: Besides, when was the last time
: that, say, Boskone or Philcon published their books on the internet?
I don't know about Philcon, but the Boskone budget is published in INSTANT
MESSAGE, the club newsletter, and is available to all who ask. Next
question?
: :>Was the art show any kind of improvement on the disaster they were
: :>pilloried for in the fannish newsgroups two years ago?
: Somewhat, but we still have some work to do.
Fair enough.
: :>Was there much of a literary program?
: Only about four tracks worth.
I suppose I should go look at the con web page if I'm seriously curious.
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA
Alan Braggins
> : :>so I doubt the people running it see any reason to change the expo; I
> : :>still think it would be awfully nice if they made their books public,
> : :>though, like Worldcon and most honest sf cons do;
> : ^^^^^^
> : And exactly what the hell is this supposed to imply?
>
> : First of all, I think
> : you've got a lot of goddamned gaul to even hint at such a thing!
Use of "most" also implies that there are honest SF conventions that
don't make their books public - Dragon*Con is presumably one of them,
and I don't see that as an offensive implication.
Anyway, only one village held out after Caesar divided the rest in
three parts, and I don't think he gave Gary any of them...
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Alan Braggins wrote:
> > : :>so I doubt the people running it see any reason to change the
> expo; I
> > : :>still think it would be awfully nice if they made their books
> public,
> > : :>though, like Worldcon and most honest sf cons do;
> > : ^^^^^^
> > : And exactly what the hell is this supposed to imply?
> >
> [Snip Gary repeating in detail that it means what it says.]
>
> > : First of all, I think
> > : you've got a lot of goddamned gaul to even hint at such a thing!
>
> Use of "most" also implies that there are honest SF conventions that
> don't make their books public - Dragon*Con is presumably one of them,
> and I don't see that as an offensive implication.
> Anyway, only one village held out after Caesar divided the rest in
> three parts, and I don't think he gave Gary any of them...
If Dragon*Con is run by a 501(c)(3) organization, there are disclosure
requirements in the law. I'm at home, not in my office, so I can't tell
you what is or isn't public. However, the Form 1023 Application for
Exempt Status is definitely a public document.
--
Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/
Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
http://www.code7r.com/
Kevin Standlee
"Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
> > Use of "most" also implies that there are honest SF conventions that
> > don't make their books public - Dragon*Con is presumably one of them,
> > and I don't see that as an offensive implication.
> > Anyway, only one village held out after Caesar divided the rest in
> > three parts, and I don't think he gave Gary any of them...
>
> If Dragon*Con is run by a 501(c)(3) organization, there are disclosure
> requirements in the law. I'm at home, not in my office, so I can't tell
> you what is or isn't public. However, the Form 1023 Application for
> Exempt Status is definitely a public document.
DragonCon is NOT a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a corporation,
apparently a Geogria one, and it is not a non-profit. They have no
obligation to release financial figures.
Mind you, DC isn't the only convention out there organized this way.
BayCon in San Jose is run by Artistic Solutions, Inc., a California
corporation (not non-profit). In the case of ASI, I know the
stockholders, including majority stockholder Michael Siladi, and they
have said that ASI has never paid a dividend or otherwise returned money
to its owners, nor is there any expectation of same.
I'm the treasurer of a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt non-profit, San Francisco
Science Fiction Conventions, Inc. At the moment, our gross revenues are
under $25,000, so we don't have to file annual reports with the IRS, but
we do have to issue continuing reports to WSFS as to the disposition of
remaining surplus from ConFrancisco. (As I recall, we were down to about
$2,500 "reportable" as of last year, and it's possible that even
excluding the San Francisco in 2002 Worldcon bid -- which is in a
completely different SFSFC fund -- that we may actually make our Final
Report this year. I'll be setting down to do the financials for the
fiscal year that ended June 30 any day now.
Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought anyway.
My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people are rarely
going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will wonder what you
have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Kevin Standlee -> (stan...@LunaCity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
[Apologies if this is double posted, my ISP just gave me an error
message]
Kevin Standlee wrote:
> "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
>
> > > Use of "most" also implies that there are honest SF conventions
> that
> > > don't make their books public - Dragon*Con is presumably one of
> them,
> > > and I don't see that as an offensive implication.
> > > Anyway, only one village held out after Caesar divided the rest in
>
> > > three parts, and I don't think he gave Gary any of them...
> >
> > If Dragon*Con is run by a 501(c)(3) organization, there are
> disclosure
> > requirements in the law. I'm at home, not in my office, so I can't
> tell
> > you what is or isn't public. However, the Form 1023 Application for
>
> > Exempt Status is definitely a public document.
>
> DragonCon is NOT a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a corporation,
> apparently a Geogria one, and it is not a non-profit. They have no
> obligation to release financial figures.
Good for them. I wonder if they're pulling a profit....
> Mind you, DC isn't the only convention out there organized this way.
> BayCon in San Jose is run by Artistic Solutions, Inc., a California
> corporation (not non-profit). In the case of ASI, I know the
> stockholders, including majority stockholder Michael Siladi, and they
> have said that ASI has never paid a dividend or otherwise returned
> money
> to its owners, nor is there any expectation of same.
However, the owners (and the public if it's publicly traded) do get to
see the financial statements. I hope that Artistic Solutions, Inc.,
isn't an S-Corp. There's nothing worse than having to declare income
from a corporation who isn't giving you a dividend.
> I'm the treasurer of a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt non-profit, San Francisco
> Science Fiction Conventions, Inc. At the moment, our gross revenues
> are
> under $25,000, so we don't have to file annual reports with the IRS,
> but
> we do have to issue continuing reports to WSFS as to the disposition
> of
> remaining surplus from ConFrancisco. (As I recall, we were down to
> about
> $2,500 "reportable" as of last year, and it's possible that even
> excluding the San Francisco in 2002 Worldcon bid -- which is in a
> completely different SFSFC fund -- that we may actually make our Final
>
> Report this year. I'll be setting down to do the financials for the
> fiscal year that ended June 30 any day now.
Being the nosy type, and because I'm working on budgets, financials,
etc., for a convention here, is it possible to get a copy of your
budgets, financial results, and Form 1023? If so, thanks in advance.
> Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
> anyway.
> My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people are rarely
> going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will wonder what
> you
> have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
I'm trying to figure out some way of putting our Form 1023 on the web
site once it's approved by the Infernal Revenue Service. You can always
create an HTML markup (or Acrobat the file if you're really gung ho) to
documents you create yourself. However, I don't think that CCH's form
software will create anything usable for web publication. How big would
a .jpg of a black and white, 8 1/2 by 11 form be? Multiply that number
by the 20 or so pages, and we're talking about a huge file.
Kelly Lockhart
Kevin Standlee wrote:
> > "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
> >
> > If Dragon*Con is run by a 501(c)(3) organization, there are
> > disclosure requirements in the law.
>
> DragonCon is NOT a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a corporation,
> apparently a Geogria one, and it is not a non-profit. They have no
> obligation to release financial figures.
Correct on both counts. Dragon Con, Inc. is the organization that is
responsible for putting on the convention every year. Financial figures
are made available to the stockholders, as in every other corporation in
the United States.
> Mind you, DC isn't the only convention out there organized this way.
> BayCon in San Jose is run by Artistic Solutions, Inc., a California
> corporation (not non-profit). In the case of ASI, I know the
> stockholders, including majority stockholder Michael Siladi, and they
> have said that ASI has never paid a dividend or otherwise returned
> money to its owners, nor is there any expectation of same.
From speaking with a number of the DragonCon stockholders, they tell me
that this is the same situation. To whit, they have never received a
dividend nor any other financial payoff from the convention, instead
funneling back all monies received into the general fund to use for the
next covnention (which helps explain _why_ thy can put on such an
elaborate convention).
> Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
> anyway. My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people are
> rarely going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will wonder
> what you have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend. If
you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
way.
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, TN
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Gary Farber wrote:
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom Kelly Lockhart <kel...@concentric.net> wrote:
> [. . .]
>
> : Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> : information in the first place. If you like the convention,
> attend. If
> : you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> : decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain
> that
> : way.
>
> They wonder because this is not how fandom, on the whole, and
> traditional
> sf conventions, in specific, customarily work, Kelly. Sf conventions
> are
> distinguished from the modern rip-off media/comics for-profit
> expositions
> by a number of distinctions, from the member/ticket dichotomy to the
> more
> crucial distinction of being run on a non-profit *and* *open* basis.
> We
> volunteer because we *know* that we're all in it together, on an
> egalitarian basis as fans working for a mutual non-profit endeavor, as
>
> opposed to working for a closed hierarchy of a private company.
Perhaps we could get into a philosophical discussion about economics,
rip-off conventions versus more fannish conventions not meeting needs of
certain portions of fandom, and other such issues.
Perhaps not.
> Y'all say that D*C is non-profit, and I have no particular reason to
> doubt
> you, nor do I challenge it, save to note that this issue of closedness
>
> regarding D*C finances does exist, and the fact that it *is* so
> unusual
> and contrary to sf convention/fannish custom does raise immediate and
> obvious questions. The question is "why?" (I've had a private answer
>
> from you, but I don't find the logic compelling as yet.)
I have problems with being a non-profit and yet not registering as such
with the IRS. Not philosophical problems, but more on the nature of "if
you f*ck up and make a profit according to IRS rules, you owe them
money." On the other hand, working my way through the 501(c)(3) forms
can drive you nuts, so it may be worth it to not bother with the
paperwork.
> This isn't an issue that people are making up specifically to harass
> D*C,
> though I can understand if it seems that way to you; it's simply an
> obvious Very Peculiar Thing for anyone who comes from the traditional
> fannish sf convention school.
>
> D*C is welcome to regard itself as a private company and declare that
> any
> specific aspect, including its books, is not the business of fans,
> general
> fandom, or anyone not a stockholder. And lots of fans are apt to, in
> turn, say "hmm, well, that's not at all like a fannish con: why are
> they
> hiding this information which all fannish cons make freely available?"
It is interesting when the exercise of your rights is considered
strange. When the cop knocks on your door, do you let him/her in?
> Running a private company is fine; it's simply not the way fans are
> used
> to sf cons being run. Myself, I can't conceive of working as a
> *volunteer* for a private non-501(3)(c) company whose books I'm not
> privy
> to, but obviously loads of people's Mileage Varies from me in this
> regard.
I've worked as an unofficial volunteer for a bookstore I really liked.
I wanted them to stay open, and so I would clean up the shelves, etc.
Since they were marginal financially (or at least it looked like it to
me), I thought I was doing a good thing.
> I hope this answers your question of "wondering why." I'm sure others
> can
> elaborate upon it.
I'm not sure my elaborations are what you're looking for.
Kevin Standlee
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") writes:
> In article <33CE54...@concentric.net>
> kel...@concentric.net "Kelly Lockhart" writes:
>
> > Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> > information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend. If
> > you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> > decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
> > way.
>
> There is a minor cultural difference here, between the UK and the USA.
> I don't know if a corporation (US) is filling the same role as a limited
> liability company (UK), but here in the UK, Name Your Convention Ltd,
> even as a private company, would have to deposit accounts at Companies
> House, which anyone, on payment of a fee, would be able to examine.
I'm not a lawyer, but corporation = limited liability company, pretty
much. Privately held corporations' financial figures are not subject to
public scrutiny in the USA, generally speaking. Publically traded
corporations financial figures ARE subject to public scrutiny, however.
Non-profit corportations and those exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the
Internal Revenue Code -- and remember that these are two different
things, the first having to do with the STATE, and the second with the
FEDERAL government -- generally must reveal their financial figures, and
with exceptions, their filings with the government are subject to public
scrutiny.
On top of all of this, any group which wants to put on a Worldcon is
required to comply with the "sunshine" requirement of making its books
available to any member upon reasonable request.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Kelly Lockhart wrote:
> Kevin Standlee wrote:
[snip, snip, snip, ....]
> > Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
> > anyway. My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people
> are
> > rarely going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will
> wonder
> > what you have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
>
> Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend.
> If
> you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
>
> way.
The reason I would like to know other convention finances is so that I
can learn from them. Getting a budget done accurately could stop people
from running a con that's going to become a Perot-great-sucking-sound of
money. Additionally, if you can see a successful Form 1023 (501(c)(3)
exemption application), you'll spend a lot less time making the IRS
happy and more time making the fans happy.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
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David G. Bell wrote:
> In article <33CE54...@concentric.net>
> kel...@concentric.net "Kelly Lockhart" writes:
>
> > > Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
> > > anyway. My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people
> are
> > > rarely going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will
> wonder
> > > what you have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
> >
> > Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> > information in the first place. If you like the convention,
> attend. If
> > you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> > decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain
> that
> > way.
>
> There is a minor cultural difference here, between the UK and the USA.
>
> I don't know if a corporation (US) is filling the same role as a
> limited
> liability company (UK), but here in the UK, Name Your Convention Ltd,
> even as a private company, would have to deposit accounts at Companies
>
> House, which anyone, on payment of a fee, would be able to examine.
>
> --
> David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Here in the U.S., in general a corporation organized for profit -
actually any business organized as a corporation, partnership, or sole
proprietorship - has no public disclosure requirements. Financial
disclosure is required to the Internal Revenue Service (the tax people)
and to the owners. Lenders may require it to get loans, but that is a
private issue between the lender and the business. On the other hand,
not-for-profit organizations have public disclosure requirements. In
many ways, this is more than a minor cultural difference, it reflects
the more libertarian founding of the country. Unfortunately this
difference may not last much longer as we become (IMHO) less free.
--
Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/
Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
http://www.code7r.com/
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David G. Bell wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In article <33CE54...@concentric.net>
<BR> kel...@concentric.net
"Kelly Lockhart" writes:
<P>> Kevin Standlee wrote:
<BR>>
<BR>> > > "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com>
writes:
<BR>> > >
<BR>> > > If Dragon*Con is run by a 501(c)(3) organization, there are
<BR>> > > disclosure requirements in the law.
<BR>> >
<BR>> > DragonCon is NOT a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a corporation,
<BR>> > apparently a Geogria one, and it is not a non-profit. They
have no
<BR>> > obligation to release financial figures.
<BR>>
<BR>> Correct on both counts. Dragon Con, Inc. is the organization
that is
<BR>> responsible for putting on the convention every year. Financial
figures
<BR>> are made available to the stockholders, as in every other corporation
in
<BR>> the United States.
<BR>>
<BR>> > Mind you, DC isn't the only convention out there organized this
way.
<BR>> > BayCon in San Jose is run by Artistic Solutions, Inc., a California
<BR>> > corporation (not non-profit). In the case of ASI, I know
the
<BR>> > stockholders, including majority stockholder Michael Siladi, and
they
<BR>> > have said that ASI has never paid a dividend or otherwise returned
<BR>> > money to its owners, nor is there any expectation of same.
<BR>>
<BR>> From speaking with a number of the DragonCon stockholders, they tell
me
<BR>> that this is the same situation. To whit, they have never received
a
<BR>> dividend nor any other financial payoff from the convention, instead
<BR>> funneling back all monies received into the general fund to use for
the
<BR>> next covnention (which helps explain _why_ thy can put on such an
<BR>> elaborate convention).
<BR>>
<BR>> > Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
<BR>> > anyway. My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people
are
<BR>> > rarely going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will
wonder
<BR>> > what you have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
<BR>>
<BR>> Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
<BR>> information in the first place. If you like the convention,
attend. If
<BR>> you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private
company
<BR>> decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain
that
<BR>> way.
<P>There is a minor cultural difference here, between the UK and the USA.
<BR>I don't know if a corporation (US) is filling the same role as a limited
<BR>liability company (UK), but here in the UK, Name Your Convention Ltd,
<BR>even as a private company, would have to deposit accounts at Companies
<BR>House, which anyone, on payment of a fee, would be able to examine.
<P>--
<BR>David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..</BLOCKQUOTE>
Here in the U.S., in general a corporation organized for profit - actually
any business organized as a corporation, partnership, or sole proprietorship
- has no <B>public</B> disclosure requirements. Financial disclosure
is required to the Internal Revenue Service (the tax people) and to the
owners. Lenders may require it to get loans, but that is a <B>private</B>
issue between the lender and the business. On the other hand, not-for-profit
organizations have <B>public</B> disclosure requirements. In many
ways, this is more than a <I>minor cultural difference</I>, it reflects
the more libertarian founding of the country. Unfortunately this
difference may not last much longer as we become (IMHO) less free.
<P>--
<BR>Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
<BR><A HREF="http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/">http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/</A>
<P>Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
<BR><A HREF="http://www.code7r.com/">http://www.code7r.com/</A>
<BR> </HTML>
--------------499950683D9C9F48CC724140--
Stevens R. Miller
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA wrote:
> Here in the U.S., in general a corporation organized for profit -
> actually any business organized as a corporation, partnership, or sole
> proprietorship - has no public disclosure requirements.
About one percent of the corporations in America are publicly
held, which implies a substantial set of disclosure requirements
including, but not limited to, a prospectus, transactions in
large blocks of their own shares, and publication of significant
business decisions. One percent may seem small, but the bulk of
all American industrial wealth is actually concentrated in the
top five percent of that one percent.
--
WEB PAGE:MANAGING POLICE ENCOUNTERS | Freedom from fear and want.
http://www.users.interport.net/~lex | Freedom of speech and religion.
Stevens R. Miller
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA wrote:
> > D*C is welcome to regard itself as a private company and declare that
> > any
> > specific aspect, including its books, is not the business of fans,
> > general
> > fandom, or anyone not a stockholder. And lots of fans are apt to, in
> > turn, say "hmm, well, that's not at all like a fannish con: why are
> > they
> > hiding this information which all fannish cons make freely available?"
> It is interesting when the exercise of your rights is considered
> strange. When the cop knocks on your door, do you let him/her in?
Comparing a con and fans to the cops and citizens is certainly a
suggestive, if ridiculous, analogy.
Gary Farber
: Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
: information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend. If
: you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
: decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
: way.
They wonder because this is not how fandom, on the whole, and traditional
sf conventions, in specific, customarily work, Kelly. Sf conventions are
distinguished from the modern rip-off media/comics for-profit expositions
by a number of distinctions, from the member/ticket dichotomy to the more
crucial distinction of being run on a non-profit *and* *open* basis. We
volunteer because we *know* that we're all in it together, on an
egalitarian basis as fans working for a mutual non-profit endeavor, as
opposed to working for a closed hierarchy of a private company.
Y'all say that D*C is non-profit, and I have no particular reason to doubt
you, nor do I challenge it, save to note that this issue of closedness
regarding D*C finances does exist, and the fact that it *is* so unusual
and contrary to sf convention/fannish custom does raise immediate and
obvious questions. The question is "why?" (I've had a private answer
from you, but I don't find the logic compelling as yet.)
This isn't an issue that people are making up specifically to harass D*C,
though I can understand if it seems that way to you; it's simply an
obvious Very Peculiar Thing for anyone who comes from the traditional
fannish sf convention school.
D*C is welcome to regard itself as a private company and declare that any
specific aspect, including its books, is not the business of fans, general
fandom, or anyone not a stockholder. And lots of fans are apt to, in
turn, say "hmm, well, that's not at all like a fannish con: why are they
hiding this information which all fannish cons make freely available?"
Running a private company is fine; it's simply not the way fans are used
to sf cons being run. Myself, I can't conceive of working as a
*volunteer* for a private non-501(3)(c) company whose books I'm not privy
to, but obviously loads of people's Mileage Varies from me in this regard.
I hope this answers your question of "wondering why." I'm sure others can
elaborate upon it.
David G. Bell
> Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend. If
> you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
> way.
There is a minor cultural difference here, between the UK and the USA.
Kevin Standlee
Kelly Lockhart <kel...@concentric.net> writes:
> Kevin Standlee wrote:
>
> > Mind you, I'm of the "show us your financials" school of thought
> > anyway. My feeling is that if you regularly report results, people are
> > rarely going to worry, whereas if you're secretive, people will wonder
> > what you have to hide even when you have nothing to hide.
>
> Whereas I wonder why certain people feel it necessary to know the
> information in the first place. If you like the convention, attend. If
> you don't like the convention, don't attend. How a private company
> decides to spend their money is their decision, and should remain that
> way.
Because historically, fandom has been a co-op, not a vendor-customer
situation. It's one of the ways we keep the costs down.
Vicki Rosenzweig
Like Fred, I've done assorted unofficial volunteer work for
people, including helping out at a friend's huckster table
for free, because it seemed necessary or desirable. On the
other hand, I don't think the analogy with DragonCon holds
up here--I know I'd have been pretty upset if it turned out
that the friend who I'd been helping for free because she
was worrying about money had turned out to have a million
dollars in the bank, and just not wanted to pay me a
reasonable wage for getting up in the morning and selling
stuff. And I doubt most of us would volunteer to work for
free at Barnes and Noble--they have plenty of money, and
I at least value my time enough that I give it away to
people I love, or to those in need, not to rich strangers.
Which is where Gary's desire to see the books (or be able
to see them) comes in, imho: if you're asking us to work
free, it's reasonable for us to want evidence that you
aren't going to Aruba on the proceeds.
Vicki
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
Will think for chocolate
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> Like Fred,
Hi Vicki, when are you coming to Florida? Lisa and I would like to see
you again. We now have two little girls, a four year old and a one year
old.
If I was asked to help out a friend who could afford to pay me, I'd be
pissed. On the other hand, I have volunteered on my own several times
for profit making ventures.
I think that a friend who used you as slave labor really isn't a
friend. Not that this has happened in either of our cases that I'm
aware of. Personally, I've worked at friend's dealers tables because I
got bored with daytime programming and found that I met all of my other
friends easier at the dealer's room than anywhere else. Perhaps having
a public base to meet people can be considered a form of payment. I'm
not going to add it to my 1040.
> Vicki
> v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
> Will think for chocolate
--
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
--------------8FBE4FE096AB71AC944755FD
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Stevens R. Miller wrote:
> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA wrote:
>
> > Here in the U.S., in general a corporation organized for profit -
> > actually any business organized as a corporation, partnership, or
> sole
> > proprietorship - has no public disclosure requirements.
>
> About one percent of the corporations in America are publicly
> held, which implies a substantial set of disclosure requirements
> including, but not limited to, a prospectus, transactions in
> large blocks of their own shares, and publication of significant
> business decisions. One percent may seem small, but the bulk of
> all American industrial wealth is actually concentrated in the
> top five percent of that one percent.
True, but the reason for that is that there is an open market for
ownership of the corporation. In other words, I can send $50 to Johnson
Controls and get a piece of the action. An owner is entitled to
financial statements, and the right to publicly market your stock adds a
great deal of disclosure requirements.
Note: I am not advocating buying Johnson Controls, it is on a list of
stocks in Money which I received today which had low fee, low minimum
DRIP plans.
> --
> WEB PAGE:MANAGING POLICE ENCOUNTERS | Freedom from fear and want.
> http://www.users.interport.net/~lex | Freedom of speech and religion.
--
Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/
Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
http://www.code7r.com/
--------------8FBE4FE096AB71AC944755FD
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<HTML>
Stevens R. Miller wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA wrote:
<P>> Here in the U.S., in general a corporation organized for profit -
<BR>> actually any business organized as a corporation, partnership, or
sole
<BR>> proprietorship - has no public disclosure requirements.
<P>About one percent of the corporations in America are publicly
<BR>held, which implies a substantial set of disclosure requirements
<BR>including, but not limited to, a prospectus, transactions in
<BR>large blocks of their own shares, and publication of significant
<BR>business decisions. One percent may seem small, but the bulk
of
<BR>all American industrial wealth is actually concentrated in the
<BR>top five percent of that one percent.</BLOCKQUOTE>
True, but the reason for that is that there is an open market for ownership
of the corporation. In other words, I can send $50 to Johnson Controls
and get a piece of the action. An owner is entitled to financial
statements, and the right to publicly market your stock adds a great deal
of disclosure requirements.
<P>Note: I am not advocating buying Johnson Controls, it is on a
list of stocks in <I>Money</I> which I received today which had low fee,
low minimum DRIP plans.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>--
<BR>WEB PAGE:MANAGING POLICE ENCOUNTERS | Freedom from fear and want.
<BR><A HREF="http://www.users.interport.net/~lex">http://www.users.interport.net/~lex</A>
| Freedom of speech and religion.</BLOCKQUOTE>
--
<BR>Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
<BR><A HREF="http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/">http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/</A>
<P>Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
<BR><A HREF="http://www.code7r.com/">http://www.code7r.com/</A>
<BR> </HTML>
--------------8FBE4FE096AB71AC944755FD--
Kelly Lockhart
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> Which is where Gary's desire to see the books (or be able
> to see them) comes in, imho: if you're asking us to work
> free, it's reasonable for us to want evidence that you
> aren't going to Aruba on the proceeds.
How about basic trust? I have known many of the DragonCon stockholders
for years and they show no sign whatsoever off being able to jet off to
Aruba on convention money.
When people tell me that they are not making money off of a convention,
and these people have shown themselves for years to be honest and
trustworthy, that's good enough for me.
A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, TN
http://www.concentric.net/~kellyl
Loren MacGregor
In article <33D108...@concentric.net>, Kelly says...
Hrm. It might be that some of us live in a world where many, many
companies, many of which have very nice people indeed working for
them as presidents, vice-presidents and managers, have told us many
times that they cannot pay their workers more because they're barely
breaking even as it is; it might be that we're living in a world
where Art Buchwald can sue a motion picture studio for stealing his
idea, only to be told that the movie is still in the red despite
years of lucrative film showings and video rentals; or it may be,
just as others have implied, that we're curious, like to know how
things are run, and get even more curious when we are told, "No,
you can't see that." It's sort of like being told, "Pay no
attention to that man behind the curtain." All we want is to
see what he's doing.
-- LJM
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Stevens R. Miller wrote:
> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA wrote:
>
> > Gary Farber wrote:
>
> > > D*C is welcome to regard itself as a private company and declare
> that
> > > any
> > > specific aspect, including its books, is not the business of fans,
>
> > > general
> > > fandom, or anyone not a stockholder. And lots of fans are apt to,
> in
> > > turn, say "hmm, well, that's not at all like a fannish con: why
> are
> > > they
> > > hiding this information which all fannish cons make freely
> available?"
>
> > It is interesting when the exercise of your rights is considered
> > strange. When the cop knocks on your door, do you let him/her in?
>
> Comparing a con and fans to the cops and citizens is certainly a
> suggestive, if ridiculous, analogy.
>
> --
> WEB PAGE:MANAGING POLICE ENCOUNTERS | Freedom from fear and want.
> http://www.users.interport.net/~lex | Freedom of speech and religion.
If I was going for the literal analogy, the cops are the fans, and the
con is the citizen, rather than the other way around. However, I didn't
mean for the analogy to be that close. I was merely saying that
exercising ones rights (in this case, the right to privacy) shouldn't
be, in an of itself, a sign that you're hiding something.
Mary Kay Kare
In article <33D108...@concentric.net>, Kelly Lockhart
<kel...@concentric.net> wrote:
> How about basic trust?
My momma taught me many years ago, never to trust a man who says, "Trust me."
> A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
Seems a tad defensive. Curiosity is, after all, a basic primate trait.
MK
Mary Kay Kare
Compuserve's Team SF/F
Paul W. Cashman
ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare) writes:
>In article <33D108...@concentric.net>, Kelly Lockhart
><kel...@concentric.net> wrote:
>> How about basic trust?
>My momma taught me many years ago, never to trust a man who says, "Trust me."
>> A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
>Seems a tad defensive. Curiosity is, after all, a basic primate trait.
Aye. I think we managed to learn "trust" when we (well, most of us)
became human......
--
+-- I know it's easier to walk away than look it in the eye.... ---+
| I would raise a shelter to the sky... (Dream Theater, |
| And here beneath this star tonight I lie.... "Surrounded") |
+-- Paul W. Cashman van...@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~vanyel --+
Randall Stukey
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:31:29 -0700, Kelly Lockhart <kel...@concentric.net>
wrote:
>A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
You know I've never had anything against Dragon*Con, Kelly. I've came to its
defense a time or two on Genie when it was being attacked simply for being
different and successful. However, I've refused several offers to work for
the con. One of the main reasons (in addition to the fact that I've done my
share of con work and am tired of it), is the fact that I can't see its books.
The mere fact that Dragon*con is not set up as a non-profit does not bother
me. However, the fact that its directors elect to keep their books private
while expecting me to believe that all the money goes back into the con and
not into shareholder pockets does. Trust must be earned, after all.
If a group organized as a for-profit wants be to work for them, I expect to be
paid for my labor. If they can show me that they are actually functioning as
a non-profit even though they are organized as a for-profit, I'm willing to
change my mind. The burden of proof is on them, however. And unless I know
the people involved extremely well, I am not going to take their word for it.
I'm going to need to see the books. Even if I had known them all well for
15-20 years and trusted them completely, I would not work for them if they
were going to ask others to work for them for free without being willing to
prove what I was willing to take on trust.
Dragon*con has the right to organize their group as they wish. However, if
they go out of their way to flaunt the reasonable requests of those fans they
want the support and free hard work of by keeping their books private, they
have to expect a lot of flack -- and a lot of fans refusing to support their
activities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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San Antonio, TX | SFF-NET: lensman Genie: GRAY-LENSMAN AOL: RSStukey
Computer Consultant | Host, Delphi's Science Fiction Fandom Forum (S3F)
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Elisabeth Carey
Paul W. Cashman <van...@crl.crl.com> wrote in article
<5qsi41$m...@crl.crl.com>...
> ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare) writes:
>
> >In article <33D108...@concentric.net>, Kelly Lockhart
> ><kel...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >> How about basic trust?
> >My momma taught me many years ago, never to trust a man who says, "Trust
me."
>
>
> Aye. I think we managed to learn "trust" when we (well, most of us)
> became human......
Now, _there's_ a remark that will inspire trust and warm fuzzy feelings.
Not.
Trust has to be earned. As a previous poster said, my parents taught me
never to trust a man who says "Trust me". When the request for some
supporting evidence for that trust is met with refusals and defensiveness,
the distrust is increased.
Most sf conventions are organized as non-profits; Dragoncon is organized as
a for-profit, which is odd enough to begin with. They then ask us to
believe that they are _really_ operating as non-profit, but that begs the
question of _why_ they're not organized as a non-profit. And then when
asked to show the books, they say, no, just trust us.
They have a right to retain the privacy of their books. What they don't
have the right to do is retain that privacy and then have everyone take it
for granted that _of course_ they're really operating as a non-profit.
Lis Carey
Cally Soukup
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate Netscape
users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated with
all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with more
traditional netnews readers.
The worst thing about mime format is that if I answer "y" to the "use Mime
format y:n?" question, I can't just leave the message in midstream -- I have
to page down to the end of the message even if someone has uploaded _War and
Peace_. This means I habitually *don't* answer "y", and thus am subjected to
a blizzard of unintelligable HTML commands interspersed with little bits of
text. I understand that Netscape is a popular, easy to use program, but
there must be *some* way to cancel its little quirks... please?
Loren MacGregor
In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 20 Jul 1997 11:25:56 -0500, ma...@mcs.com
(Cally Soukup) said:
>Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
>
>A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
>annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate Netscape
>users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
>that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated with
>all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with more
>traditional netnews readers.
As far as I can tell, this is an artifact of "Netscape Communicator,"
or Netscape 4.0, and is the primary reason I stopped using Netscape as
a news reader. *I* couldn't find a way to turn it off. Admittedly, I
didn't look very hard, finding it instead easier just to switch back
to using Netscape 3.x and to use Free Agent for news. Many people had
already told me that Netscape was lousy as a news reader. I thought
that meant it was lousy from a message *writer's* standpoint, and was
really dismayed to learn it was so wrteched on the reader's end as
well.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
lmac...@efn.org
Aahz
In article <5qte6k$2...@root.two14.lan>, Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com> wrote:
>
>A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
>annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate Netscape
>users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
>that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated with
>all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with more
>traditional netnews readers.
That's easy. Just hit 'n' *twice*. Poof! No more problem. Once
people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention to
them, maybe they'll change.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
"Every flame is sacred, every flame is great." --Orc
Richard Brandt
Elisabeth Carey wrote:
> Trust has to be earned. As a previous poster said, my parents taught me
> never to trust a man who says "Trust me". When the request for some
> supporting evidence for that trust is met with refusals and defensiveness,
> the distrust is increased.
Yes, that would be on a par with trusting anyone who tells you
"This is 100% LEGAL and REALLY WORKS and ISN'T MLM!" before you've
even asked him anything.....
--
=============================================================
http://rgfn.epcc.edu/users/af541/virtual.htm
"The guy screams every line and goes pop-eyed at the slighest
inconvenience. It's like he's playing to Helen Keller."
--CNN Online's Paul Tatara critiques Ron Leibman
Dave Locke
ma...@mcs.com (Cally Soukup) set words in phosphor:
>Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
>
>A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
>annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate Netscape
>users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
>that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated with
>all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with more
>traditional netnews readers.
When the Nutscrape 4.0 Communicator first came out, anyone who read
the Release Notes on this beta browser should have gotten the message
"Hey, this is a piece of crap, but it's free so come get it and do our
testing for us!"
When viewing such a doubled post or email in this version of
Netscape, it appears normal to the person who sent it (just formatted
text, no HTML tags, only appearing once) so they don't know their
messages appeared otherwise to others.
To get around the problem? Disable an option called "Use HTML Compose
Window" which was enabled by default when this beta program was
downloaded. I assume they fixed that default setting in subsequent
beta releases or the problem would have observably been much worse by
now.
--
Dave dave...@bigfoot.com
Slow Djinn - Dave Locke's Back Road Off The Information Highway
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/slowdjin
Loren MacGregor
In rec.arts.sf.fandom on Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:55:43 GMT,
aa...@netcom.com (Aahz) said:
>In article <5qte6k$2...@root.two14.lan>, Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com> wrote:
>>
>>A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
>>annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate Netscape
>>users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
>>that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated with
>>all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with more
>>traditional netnews readers.
>
>That's easy. Just hit 'n' *twice*. Poof! No more problem. Once
>people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention to
>them, maybe they'll change.
It would help if people with "shitty newsreaders" were given a clue as
to what the problem was. I was told over and over that "Netscape is a
bad newsreader," but I never *was* told *why*. I even did an Alta
Vista search without discovering much useful information. (I did
discover that searching Usenet vs. searching the WWW provided hits for
a lot of people saying, "Why are you using such a bad newsreader,"
without saying *why* the newsreader was bad. I knew that.) As far as
I could tell, I was getting reasonable performance from the system --
certainly I was able to do most of what I was interesting in doing.
It wasn't until I "upgraded" to Netscape 4 and started getting
messages from people asking me why I was repeating the text version of
my message in HTML that I started looking at my own messages --
something I don't do all that often -- and saw what people were
talking about.
But simply saying, "You have a shitty newsreader" only says, "I am
superior to you; you are a worm." Not particularly helpful.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Loren MacGregor wrote:
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 20 Jul 1997 11:25:56 -0500, ma...@mcs.com
> (Cally Soukup) said:
>
> >Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
> >
> >A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS
> that
> >annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate
> Netscape
> >users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing
> messages
> >that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're
> repeated with
> >all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us
> with more
> >traditional netnews readers.
>
> As far as I can tell, this is an artifact of "Netscape Communicator,"
> or Netscape 4.0, and is the primary reason I stopped using Netscape as
>
> a news reader. *I* couldn't find a way to turn it off. Admittedly, I
>
> didn't look very hard, finding it instead easier just to switch back
> to using Netscape 3.x and to use Free Agent for news. Many people had
>
> already told me that Netscape was lousy as a news reader. I thought
> that meant it was lousy from a message *writer's* standpoint, and was
> really dismayed to learn it was so wrteched on the reader's end as
> well.
>
> -- LJM
>
> Loren MacGregor
> lmac...@efn.org
As the guilty party, I'm confused about your response. I'm using
Netscape 4.01 to read the news and am not having the problem referred to
above. It looks like it's a problem with reading news created by
Netscape with an earlier newreader that doesn't support MIME and html
codes, etc. The end result is that there is no problem with Netscape as
a reader but there is as a poster. On the other hand, I would love for
a better kill file facilitie than currently exist on Netscape. I don't
want to move to a non-Netscape news reader because I bounce around from
web browsing to news to mail and find the integrated environment useful.
When html codes are embedded in a message, theoretically both versions
(text and html) get posted.
Does this answer the comments above?
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
[Since Aahz stated he/she ignored postings from certain people, I'm also
mailing this directly to him. Normally I let usenet postings suffice.]
Aahz wrote:
> In article <5qte6k$2...@root.two14.lan>, Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS
> that
> >annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate
> Netscape
> >users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing
> messages
> >that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're
> repeated with
> >all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us
> with more
> >traditional netnews readers.
>
> That's easy. Just hit 'n' *twice*. Poof! No more problem. Once
> people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention
> to
> them, maybe they'll change.
> --
I suppose we could start a flame war about ancient attachment protocols
(uuencode) versus protocols written this century. (Do you still read
your sf written on parchment scrolls, or have you figured out the
existence of paper yet?) But then again, flame wars really aren't all
that much fun.
MIME is not a Netscape invention. I'm not sure how long it's been
around, but it has been at least a little while.
However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is not a
useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get the
strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
> --- Aahz (@netcom.com)
>
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*>
> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
> Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
>
> "Every flame is sacred, every flame is great." --Orc
--
Rebecca Ore
lmac...@efn.org (Loren MacGregor) writes:
> As far as I can tell, this is an artifact of "Netscape Communicator,"
> or Netscape 4.0, and is the primary reason I stopped using Netscape as
> a news reader. *I* couldn't find a way to turn it off. Admittedly, I
> didn't look very hard, finding it instead easier just to switch back
> to using Netscape 3.x and to use Free Agent for news. Many people had
> already told me that Netscape was lousy as a news reader. I thought
> that meant it was lousy from a message *writer's* standpoint, and was
> really dismayed to learn it was so wrteched on the reader's end as
> well.
I found it could be turned off easily enough, but that
Communicator makes a better mail reader than a news reader. You can
set up filters without programming experience which I can't say for
this particular beauty (I've downloaded a basic emac Lisp tutorial
after all the guys said just put in "setq something" without telling
me anything else. If only the thing would just drop read article
headings and have a mail reader kill file, it would be a decent
non-programmer beginner newsreader. I've been recommending it with
tkdesk for a mail reader.
Nothing on the linux side that's as easy for non-programming
beginners to use as Anawave Gravity. I'm only sorry that
Communicatior isn't more configurable as a news reader.
Speaking of religious wars in fandom, have any of the other
Linxu heads tried Opera?
Rebecca Ore
"Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
> However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
> When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
> quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
> to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is not a
> useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
> what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get the
> strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
> Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
<h1>This is what mime text looks like </h1>. <blinking>It's
all broken up with html code</blinking>.
I prefer to read mime free as all the graphics are blessedly
turned into something like this:
unbiopvnijfdbvibviobdvijodvuosbvudbvoasnc
osdbcvusbdcubasucnsu9dcbduhcbuh9jpeg. for about five pages.
Basically, if you want to do web pages, I think they're nice
in their place. I don't think any html should be used in newsgroups
and I don't really care for it in e-mail, either.
Gary Farber
In <aahzEDM...@netcom.com> Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: That's easy. Just hit 'n' *twice*. Poof! No more problem. Once
: people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention to
: them, maybe they'll change.
Pay attention, now: this assumes that they're paying attention to the fact
that nobody is paying attention to them. Since the reason we are not
paying attention to them is that they are not paying attention to their
newsreaders, it appears to those paying attention that the offenders' not
paying attention is sufficient that our not paying attention will not
cause them to pay attention, thus rendering our not paying attention
useless as a means of getting them to pay attention.
Those who paid attention understand the implications of this, both for
those who have paid attention, and for those whose attention span is
sufficiently lacking for them to have paid attention.
At least, that was my intention.
Gary Farber
In <33D2A922...@totcon.com> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter,
CPA, CMA <fcou...@totcon.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: MIME is not a Netscape invention. I'm not sure how long it's been
: around, but it has been at least a little while.
Yes, most folks have the capability of posting in MIME; they merely know
better than to do so.
: However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
: When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
: quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
: to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is not a
: useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
: what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get the
: strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
: Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
If you have to ask this, you shouldn't be posting in a format you don't
understand. You should not, of course, be posting in MIME anyway; please
go back to news.announce.newusers, and familiarize yourself with the
requirement to post in ASCII. Thanks.
› Using a standard Un newreaders, one can read MIME posted to Usenet very
awkwardly, with much of the message consisting of crappy code: it's
exceedingly annoying. For those not equipped to read MIME, posts are
simply not readable at all, or appear as all-code.
Repeat: MIME is no more appropriate for Usenet than is a binary to a
non.binary newsgroup, or an ad to a non-marketplace newsgroup.
HTH.
Cally Soukup
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
: Loren MacGregor wrote:
: > In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 20 Jul 1997 11:25:56 -0500, ma...@mcs.com
: > (Cally Soukup) said:
: > >A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS
: > >[...]
: >
: > As far as I can tell, this is an artifact of "Netscape Communicator,"
: > or Netscape 4.0, and is the primary reason I stopped using Netscape as
: As the guilty party, I'm confused about your response. I'm using
: Netscape 4.01 to read the news and am not having the problem referred to
: above. It looks like it's a problem with reading news created by
: [...]
Well, for what it's worth, this particular message was perfectly fine, from
my point of view <smile>. Thanks for changing whatever you changed!
: When html codes are embedded in a message, theoretically both versions
: (text and html) get posted.
Isn't that wasteful of bandwidth?
Michael P. Kube-McDowell
On 20 Jul 1997 02:38:04 GMT, ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare) wrote:
>> A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
>
>Seems a tad defensive. Curiosity is, after all, a basic primate trait.
>
>MK
>
>Mary Kay Kare
>Compuserve's Team SF/F
I wonder if D*C's position isn't motivated by concern over the
possibility that the fees/honorariums paid to the media guests might
become public knowledge. If Star A finds out what Star B's getting, or
the fans find out what the stars are demanding, or the writers who're
expected to be grateful for a room and $100 to eat on discover how the
other half lives...well, you get the idea.
Best,
K-Mac
---] Michael Paul McDowell, writing as Michael P. Kube-McDowell [---
---] Author of THE QUIET POOLS and STAR WARS: BEFORE THE STORM [---
---] Web Site: http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac [---
---] Newsgroup: sff.people.Kube-McDowell at server NEWS.SFF.NET [---
Loren MacGregor
In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 20 Jul 1997 20:34:56 -0400, Rebecca Ore
<rebec...@cynet.net> said:
> Speaking of religious wars in fandom, have any of the other
>Linxu heads tried Opera?
No, but I just downloaded Chimera, a Unix/X-windows browser. I'm
going to try it out at work.
Dave Locke
gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) set words in phosphor:
>In <aahzEDM...@netcom.com> Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: That's easy. Just hit 'n' *twice*. Poof! No more problem. Once
>: people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention to
>: them, maybe they'll change.
>
>Pay attention, now: this assumes that they're paying attention to the fact
>that nobody is paying attention to them. Since the reason we are not
>paying attention to them is that they are not paying attention to their
>newsreaders, it appears to those paying attention that the offenders' not
>paying attention is sufficient that our not paying attention will not
>cause them to pay attention, thus rendering our not paying attention
>useless as a means of getting them to pay attention.
>
>Those who paid attention understand the implications of this, both for
>those who have paid attention, and for those whose attention span is
>sufficiently lacking for them to have paid attention.
Me, too. What he said.
The scary thing is that this was perfectly clear and I understood it
without even paying a great deal of attention.
David G. Bell
In article <33D2A922...@totcon.com>
fcou...@totcon.com "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" writes:
> I suppose we could start a flame war about ancient attachment protocols
> (uuencode) versus protocols written this century. (Do you still read
> your sf written on parchment scrolls, or have you figured out the
> existence of paper yet?) But then again, flame wars really aren't all
> that much fun.
Both uuencode and MIME can handle binary data.
> MIME is not a Netscape invention. I'm not sure how long it's been
> around, but it has been at least a little while.
But MIME started out as a protocol for e-mail. While the standards for
news article formats are based on those for e-mail, there is no
guarantee that anyone out there has a news reader that can handle it
properly. At least with e-mail you have a chance of knowing what can be
handled by the addressee.
> However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
> When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
> quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
> to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is not a
> useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
> what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get the
> strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
> Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
Properly set up (unlike the notorious Netscape default already referred
to) there shouldn't be any doubling up of the message. However, there
can be odd codes in the message which refer to characters in the upper
half of the 8-bit character set. And, unfortunately, this character set
is not consistent. The code for a British currency symbol is different
for an MS-DOS program than for a Windows program. Again, you don't know
enough about what people are using to read an article.
Similarly, some people use typographical quote characters, instead of
the ordinary, not pretty but typewriter-traditional, " character.
Again, that creates odd character strings under MIME.
These days, many people will see these full-8-bit characters arrive
without needing MIME encoding, but will still have the character-set
problems.
So, to be honest, there seems to be little point in using MIME for news
articles, except, perhaps, for languages which require non-7-bit-ASCII
characters. And even there it needs care to avoid the character-set
problem.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <33d283ba....@news.efn.org>, Loren
MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> writes
>But simply saying, "You have a shitty newsreader" only says, "I am
>superior to you; you are a worm." Not particularly helpful.
But very cathartic.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <33D2A922...@totcon.com>, "Fredrik
Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes
>However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
>When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
>quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
>to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers?
I don't see any problems with this message. Dual format HTML/Text
message appear as plain text with a command button at the bottom which
lets me launch viewer program, my web browser.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Rebecca Ore wrote:
> "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
>
> > However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for
> me.
> > When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When
> they're
> > quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details
> please)
> > to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is
> not a
> > useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
>
> > what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get
> the
> > strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
>
> > Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
>
> <h1>This is what mime text looks like </h1>. <blinking>It's
> all broken up with html code</blinking>.
Anyone who uses the /blinking code deserves the derision of everyone.
Only Microsoft could have come up with that abortion.
> I prefer to read mime free as all the graphics are blessedly
> turned into something like this:
> unbiopvnijfdbvibviobdvijodvuosbvudbvoasnc
> osdbcvusbdcubasucnsu9dcbduhcbuh9jpeg. for about five pages.
>
> Basically, if you want to do web pages, I think they're nice
> in their place. I don't think any html should be used in newsgroups
> and I don't really care for it in e-mail, either.
Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail? Or
are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
On the other hand, as an accountant I'm supposedly stuck in a linear
mode of thought all the time. We're supposed to be boring. No one
trusts an interesting accountant.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Cally Soukup wrote:
> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
> : > In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 20 Jul 1997 11:25:56 -0500, ma...@mcs.com
>
> : > (Cally Soukup) said:
> : >
> : > >A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what
> IS
> : > >[...]
> : >
> : > As far as I can tell, this is an artifact of "Netscape
> Communicator,"
> : > or Netscape 4.0, and is the primary reason I stopped using
> Netscape as
> : > [...]
>
> : As the guilty party, I'm confused about your response. I'm using
> : Netscape 4.01 to read the news and am not having the problem
> referred to
> : above. It looks like it's a problem with reading news created by
> : [...]
>
> Well, for what it's worth, this particular message was perfectly fine,
> from
> my point of view <smile>. Thanks for changing whatever you changed!
The only thing I changed was the inability to bold, italic, underline,
or do any formatting to my messages. Obviously Netscape is smart enough
to know that if there are no format codes, there is no reason to send
two messages.
On the other hand, there are times that I need to embed format codes.
The last time I needed to was in one of the accounting groups when
answering a question on the proper way to post a certain transaction. I
created a table and properly posted debits, credits, etc.
Being able to change fonts, embed images, etc., is very useful at
times. I wouldn't want to limit my wordprocessing to Notepad, and I'm
not thrilled about limiting my postings to straight ascii. However,
many postings do not require (or call for) more, so they come smaller.
> : When html codes are embedded in a message, theoretically both
> versions
> : (text and html) get posted.
>
> Isn't that wasteful of bandwidth?
Yes, but not as much as these wonderful inline gif files advertising the
latest sex site. HTML is a ascii based system with control codes
embedded. (I kind of reminds me of WordStar.) For example, if I wanted
to bold a word (and I was typing out my HTML code), the text file would
be <b>a word</b>. So I may be doubling (or slightly more) the size of
the file. I'm not sure that the bandwidth will be destroyed by this.
More bandwidth is taken up by discussing ST:THG than HTML codes.
(Notice that I did not say wasted.)
BTW, when you set up an address book in Netscape, you can tell it to
send only HTML to those people who you know receive HTML so that the
bandwidth is not destroyed.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Gary Farber wrote:
> In <33D2A922...@totcon.com> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter,
> CPA, CMA <fcou...@totcon.com> wrote:
> : However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for
> me.
> : When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When
> they're
> : quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details
> please)
> : to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is
> not a
> : useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
>
> : what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get
> the
> : strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
>
> : Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
>
> If you have to ask this, you shouldn't be posting in a format you
> don't
> understand. You should not, of course, be posting in MIME anyway;
> please
> go back to news.announce.newusers, and familiarize yourself with the
> requirement to post in ASCII. Thanks.
First, Netscape 4.01 is very new. I'm wondering how they implemented
the "post both HTML and ascii" option. Since I'm using Netscape, I
can't tell. I refuse to go back to nn to read my news.
> =9B Using a standard Un newreaders, one can read MIME posted to Usenet
> very
> awkwardly, with much of the message consisting of crappy code: it's
> exceedingly annoying. For those not equipped to read MIME, posts are
> simply not readable at all, or appear as all-code.
Another interesting question: with the amount of people using Netscape
or other, more recent newsreaders, how do you define standard? Lowest
common denominator? I suspect that more people use Netscape to read the
news than all others combined. On the other hand, I could easily be
wrong, since Netscape users may like to look at the pretty pictures and
avoid all text.
> Repeat: MIME is no more appropriate for Usenet than is a binary to a
> non.binary newsgroup, or an ad to a non-marketplace newsgroup.
>
> HTH.
> --
> -- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
> Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA
And I remember when copyright notices on usenet postings were considered
in very bad form.
Rebecca Ore
"Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
I wrote:
> ..
> >
> > Basically, if you want to do web pages, I think they're nice
> > in their place. I don't think any html should be used in newsgroups
> > and I don't really care for it in e-mail, either.
>
> Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail? Or
> are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
I'm bi-modal, and I've been known to e-mail friends 900k vrml
files I ran up on Breeze. My love of graphics wants them to be 640 by
480 or bigger attachments, properly readable by someone with a
graphics program. I've also used the Kodak program to stick pictures
in letters, but that was on another OS and the program is now expunged
from my hard disk. As a hypertext technician, I see enough wonky
linked images from 9-5. My 7-9 and 6-7 night and morning job is
writing science fiction. My other computer is in a Nikon F-3. I use
Lyx for personal letters (Postscript/Ghostscript printing).
Check the headers (full headers under view if you're using
Netscape) and see what's used here. If you see a lot of tin, gnus,
slrn, and other similar names, we probably can't read your mime
passages (image of black suited white faced person on the New York
Library steps comes immediately to mind's eye).
I'm really not so disturbed by you as happy that I don't have
to look at the sex ads shit. Remember, the main use of mimes on
usenet is to promote pornography (vivid mental image of a black
suited, etc......)
> On the other hand, as an accountant I'm supposedly stuck in a linear
> mode of thought all the time. We're supposed to be boring. No one
> trusts an interesting accountant.
Ah, quit feeling sorry for yourself. My dad was a CPA until
he went almost blind. Now he plays the violin. (Note: this is not to
suggest that you attach sound files. I don't allow Linux to use the
sound card.).
Rebecca Ore
Typography is for people who can't get words to speak for themselves.
Cally Soukup
Rebecca Ore (rebec...@cynet.net) wrote:
: "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
: > However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
: > When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
Incidentally, I'm Cally, not Cathy. My twin sister Cassy is the one who's
always being called Cathy by mistake... I'm usually mis-called Kelly.
Cally Soukup
Rebecca Ore (rebec...@cynet.net) wrote:
A response to a message I hadn't seen yet. This is a response to the message
below:
: "Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> writes:
: > However, Cathy's message does bring up an interesting question for me.
: > When I see my messages on the usenet, they appear fine. When they're
: > quoted by people, they appear fine. How do they appear (details please)
: > to people who aren't using MIME enabled news readers? (Crappy is not a
: > useful answer.) Do you get the message in straight text followed by
: > what appears to be the same message with strange codes? Do you get the
: > strange codes first? Do the strange codes show up as an attachment?
: > Does the straight text show up as an attachment?
The straight text shows up first, followed by HTML text. I don't know if
your newsreader will read the below as HTML or not, so I've modified the
brackets to be round instead of pointed. This way I'm *sure* you'll see an
approximation of what I do. The below is excerpted from a message of yours
about a convention web page. I've re-justified it, but it's still well over
the 70 letter limit on some lines. Before, it was worse...
Begin quote:
(BR)you're likely to have flamewars over exactly what qualifies as
"Midwestern (BR)US" and such. Still, for those of us who don't/can't travel
far, it would be (BR)useful.(/BLOCKQUOTE) If you set up the web site to do
searches, you could do it by zip code. People could search on the
first, first two, first three, etc., numbers in the zip code. For an
example of this, check out the (A
HREF="http://home.qfn.com/quickbooks/advisor/index.html")QuickBooks
Professional Advisors Search Engine(/A) at (A
HREF="http://home.qfn.com/quickbooks/advisor/index.html")http://home.qfn.com/quickbooks/advisor/index.html(/A).
The purpose of this form is to find someone in your area to help you with
QuickBooks. The feature that you could use on your web page is
searching by partial zip code. If I was looking for a convention near
me, I would enter a 3 into the zip code engine and get a listing of
conventions in Florida (and any other states near it). I suppose you
could get fancy and get a map of the United States divided up by the zip
code numbers, but that probably a lot of work.
(P)--
(BR)Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
(BR)(A HREF="http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/")http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/</A>
(P)Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
(BR)(A HREF="http://www.code7r.com/")http://www.code7r.com/(/A)
(BR) (/HTML)
--------------01BED04A4FACD52B407F4516--
End quote. There are some other control codes in there besides the ones that
begin and end with pointybrackets, so I don't know if you'll see this in all
its remarkably ugly splendor, but that's (more or less) what a HTML message
looks like to most of us. And some are far, far worse, too. There have been
a few messages I've been literally unable to puzzle out, as they didn't come
with the plain text at all, and had even MORE control codes than the brief
sample I've quoted.
Martin Maney
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
> Cally Soukup wrote:
> > Isn't that wasteful of bandwidth?
> Yes, but not as much as these wonderful inline gif files advertising the
> latest sex site. HTML is a ascii based system with control codes
I don't really disagree that the bandwidth is the least cost of these double
posts - especially if they aren't produced needlessly - but I have to call
you on this point. The size of abusive spam is in no way a meaningful
measure for any normal article: that the text+HTML postings are smaller than
some spam is hardly an strong argument in favor of text+HTML.
Aahz
In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>,
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA <fcou...@totcon.com> wrote:
>
>Anyone who uses the /blinking code deserves the derision of everyone.
>Only Microsoft could have come up with that abortion.
Except that it was Netscrape that did. I'll bash Mickeysoft with the
best of 'em any day, but I prefer to stick to the facts.
--
Aahz
In article <5r19f8$r...@root.two14.lan>, Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com> wrote:
>
>Incidentally, I'm Cally, not Cathy. My twin sister Cassy is the one who's
>always being called Cathy by mistake... I'm usually mis-called Kelly.
At least your other sister has an easy name. ;-)
Antony J. (Doppelganger) Shepherd
Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote in article <aahzEDM...@netcom.com>...
> In article <5qte6k$2...@root.two14.lan>, Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com>
wrote:
> >
> >A message that repeated itself. Why does Netscape do this, what IS that
> >annoying "mime format", anyway; and is it possible for considerate
Netscape
> >users to turn it off, and just post a plain old message? Seeing messages
> >that are over twice as long as they have to be because they're repeated
with
> >all sorts of HTML codes is really, really annoying for those of us with
more
> >traditional netnews readers.
>
> people with shitty newsreaders realize that nobody's paying attention to
> them, maybe they'll change.
Oh yes, we should of course all be using something prehistoric like 'rn' on
Unix boxes and should not under any account try using any of this horrible
modern software.
--
Antony J. "Doppelgänger" Shepherd - d...@carcosa.demon.co.uk
"Smilies are the canned laughter of the internet..."
Simon H Le G Bisson
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:41:13 GMT, "Antony J. (Doppelganger) Shepherd"
<d...@carcosa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Oh yes, we should of course all be using something prehistoric like 'rn' on
>Unix boxes and should not under any account try using any of this horrible
>modern software.
Oh come now Dop, rn is just so passe! You really need to be running
something kick ass like strn... I just lurve those virtual
newsgroups...
And if you don't, Charlie and I will come round and make you!
(Only using Agent, 'cause it's the nearest thing to a Unix newsreader
under Windows 95...)
--
Simon H Le G Bisson
@home: si...@fehen.demon.co.uk, si...@ukonline.co.uk
@work: simon....@ecsoft.co.uk
@http: www.fehen.demon.co.uk
P Nielsen Hayden
>Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
>Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
The suggestion that writing which lacks multiple fonts and illustrations
must partake only of "a linear mode of thought" is the height of
conceitedness. Poor Shakespeare, limited to "a linear mode of
thought."
Pitiable Flaubert, forced to compose Madame Bovary without benefit of
.GIF files.
Now that we have computers, goshawhillikers, we sure are smarter.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Gary Farber
In <33D4138B...@totcon.com>
: On the other hand, there are times that I need to embed format codes.
: The last time I needed to was in one of the accounting groups when
: answering a question on the proper way to post a certain transaction. I
: created a table and properly posted debits, credits, etc.
: Being able to change fonts, embed images, etc., is very useful at
: times.
Of course it would be. But since many people don't access Usenet with
newsreaders that will show such changes, and Usenet is not designed for
messages with such coding, what's the point of sending out messages that
violate netiquette, annoy most people, and whose non-ASCII characters are
unreadable by many people?
There are plenty of people for whom sending binaries to non-binary Usenet
newsgroups would be "useful," and others for whom sending out ads is
"useful," and others for whom sending out MPEG movies would be "useful,"
and others for whom spamming every newsgroup in creation would be
"useful." The fact that we have personal reasons to find such messages
theoretically "useful" does not make them the slightest bit more
appropriate.
: I wouldn't want to limit my wordprocessing to Notepad, and I'm
: not thrilled about limiting my postings to straight ascii.
Life is hard.
[. . . .]
Ed Dravecky III
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
<snip happens>
> Being able to change fonts, embed images, etc., is very useful at
> and I'm not thrilled about limiting my postings to straight ascii.
> come smaller.
I'm not thrilled that the Usenet Cabal doesn't send me a big
check for every post I write. However, that doesn't make it
okay for me to attach "Make Money Fast" to every post in the
hopes that a few dollars will trickle in as a result.
Usenet is a community, of sorts, and that community has rules.
The "double" messages use THREE times the bandwidth as a normal
ASCII-only message since the complete text of the message must
be duplicated *and* formatting and other MIME codes must be
added for the special formatting to work. This is both
obnoxious and wasteful.
If you must communicate with pictures, tables, and other wacky
graphical tricks, may I humbly suggest you get one of those
FREE homepages from GeoCities (at http://www.geocities.com/ )
and point people to your wonderful purple (or green or
whatever) prose complete with funny pictures and animated
clowns and whatnot.
(Please note, my personal Geocities site does not actually
contain an animated clown. We apologize for the inconvenience.)
--
Ed Dravecky III =<*>= This message was part of a complex plot
dshe...@netcom.com = to take over the world. (B5 S5 TNT WH!)
David G. Bell
> In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
>
> >Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
> >Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
>
> The suggestion that writing which lacks multiple fonts and illustrations
> must partake only of "a linear mode of thought" is the height of
> conceitedness. Poor Shakespeare, limited to "a linear mode of
> thought."
> Pitiable Flaubert, forced to compose Madame Bovary without benefit of
> .GIF files.
>
> Now that we have computers, goshawhillikers, we sure are smarter.
So true, so true, yet the computer has made practical the techniques of
hypertext. Whether humans can really handle such a non-linear system,
and even whether web browsers can (all you get is the "back" button,
which does funny things on a page using frames), is another question.
Whatever the possibilities of a technology, I am ineluctably reminded of
the vast majority who lack the talent to exploit it in other than the
most obvious ways.
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Ed Dravecky III wrote:
> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA (fcou...@totcon.com) wrote:
> <snip happens>
> > Being able to change fonts, embed images, etc., is very useful at
> > times. I wouldn't want to limit my wordprocessing to Notepad,
> > and I'm not thrilled about limiting my postings to straight ascii.
> > However, many postings do not require (or call for) more, so they
> > come smaller.
>
> I'm not thrilled that the Usenet Cabal doesn't send me a big
> check for every post I write. However, that doesn't make it
> okay for me to attach "Make Money Fast" to every post in the
> hopes that a few dollars will trickle in as a result.
If your kill file looks anything like mine, "Make Money Fast" gets
marked as read prior to my even seing it.
> Usenet is a community, of sorts, and that community has rules.
Your rules are honored less and less lately. Are the rules generated
externally (like the English first crowd wants) or do they change as the
community changes? As more an more people have browsers which are not
unix based (bye-bye nn), they will use the capabilities inherent in the
newsreader. Aren't your rules really generated by the overall use of
the internet and usenet groups? If so, perhaps your fighting the
conservative fight.
> The "double" messages use THREE times the bandwidth as a normal
> ASCII-only message since the complete text of the message must
> be duplicated *and* formatting and other MIME codes must be
> added for the special formatting to work. This is both
> obnoxious and wasteful.
I count a little over twice, at least in my case since I tended to only
use the occasional bold and italic (7 extra characters each) and bullets
(9 extra characters, I think - lists are a little harder to count).
Unless you suffer from fontitis, I don't think that adds up to 3 times
the normal length.
I can see the argument for wasteful (but as modem speeds increase, the
wastefulness drops). But obnoxious? Obnoxious was my short anoying
post (with 10 embedded font changes and 1 color change) which served no
useful purpose other than making me feel good.
> If you must communicate with pictures, tables, and other wacky
> graphical tricks, may I humbly suggest you get one of those
> FREE homepages from GeoCities (at http://www.geocities.com/ )
> and point people to your wonderful purple (or green or
> whatever) prose complete with funny pictures and animated
> clowns and whatnot.
If you read the entire message, you'll notice that I already have a web
page. Bad news for those who like "purple (or green or whatever) prose
complete with funny pictures and animated clowns and whatnot," but none
of the above appear anywhere on my website. I use tables for data,
bullets, bold and italics (as well as obligatory hyperlinks). I don't
recall ever changing the color of my text, (other than the one anoying
post I did yesterday - and yes it made me feel GOOD).
Web sites are, by their nature, one direction communication. Usenet
groups are two directional. Are you saying that, if a posting to
biz.comp.accounting (a group I read prior to rec.arts.sf.fandom) asks
how an certain transaction should be entered, I'm supposed to:
a) set up a web page in answer to their question, with the response set
up as a table, and
b) then post to the use net group, go see the answer at
http://www.what-a-waste-of-time-switching-from-news-to-browser-for-one-simple-answer.com/
This is your idea of communication. I suppose I should send you a copy
of Snow Crash, and then instead of actually writing a message in
English, just give you the page, line, and word reference.
Page / Line / Word (from the Bantom paperback May 1993 8th printing)
295 / 10 / 6
295 / 7 / 7
[Never mind, I just spent five minutes looking for the work think. Then
I got wrapped up in the book again.]
I'm also confused by the fact that you are equating the use of an
occasional bold, italic, or bullet (used for a list) with "wacky
graphical tricks." What better way do you have of giving data other
than a table? That's wacky?
I suppose that Stand On Zanzibar was one of those books you couldn't
stand due to "wacky graphical tricks."
> (Please note, my personal Geocities site does not actually
> contain an animated clown. We apologize for the inconvenience.)
If you can do a good animated clown, more power to you. Since I'm dull
and boring, I can't.
> --
> Ed Dravecky III =<*>= This message was part of a complex plot
> dshe...@netcom.com = to take over the world. (B5 S5 TNT WH!)
--
Fredrik V. Coulter, CPA, CMA
http://www.totcon.com/users/fcoulter/
Treasurer - Code7R - a Babylon 5 Convention
http://www.code7r.com/
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Aahz wrote:
> In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>,
> Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA <fcou...@totcon.com> wrote:
> >
> >Anyone who uses the /blinking code deserves the derision of everyone.
>
> >Only Microsoft could have come up with that abortion.
>
> Except that it was Netscrape that did. I'll bash Mickeysoft with the
> best of 'em any day, but I prefer to stick to the facts.
> --
> --- Aahz (@netcom.com)
>
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*>
> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
> Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
>
> "Every flame is sacred, every flame is great." --Orc
Are you sure? I could have sworn I read in one of the magazines that it
was a Microsoft idea.
Two minutes later
He's right. I just wrote a stupid web page, loaded it into Netscape
3.0, and it BLINKS! Damn, damn, damn.
Oh well, I bought a 1 year subscription to Netscape et al, so fiscal
prudence requires that I stick with it until the subscription expires.
Maybe I'll join the Gatesian Brigade after that.
Blink is really, really stupid.
What's worse is that it's a menu choice in Composer, which means that
people are going to use it.
Loren MacGregor
In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>, "Fredrik says...
>
>Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
No. But if I put in a picture -- such as a photograph -- it isn't
part of the letter, but an attachment.
>Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
Not a one-to-one relationship, and very few people would think of
me as a linear thinking. Perhaps unfortunately.
>On the other hand, as an accountant I'm supposedly stuck in a linear
>mode of thought all the time. We're supposed to be boring. No one
>trusts an interesting accountant.
One word: "Attachments"
-- LJM
B. Vermo
In article <33D2A679...@totcon.com>,| .... I'm using
|Netscape 4.01 to read the news and am not having the problem referred to
|above. It looks like it's a problem with reading news created by
|codes, etc. The end result is that there is no problem with Netscape as
|a reader but there is as a poster.
The problem with Netscape is that their products do not follow the
standards, so all standard-compliant news and mail clients will run
into problems with messages made by Netscape products.
But it is only when you do not know what you can do with a good
threaded newsreader that you will think Netscape is a useful option.
And, for all I know, it may actually be one of the better options
for Windows users.
|When html codes are embedded in a message, theoretically both versions
|(text and html) get posted.
It is supposed to be possible to disable the "HTML text" in the mail and
news client parts of Mozilla (the Netscape reader). HTML is NOT a valid
MIME type for news and mail, so even MIME-compliant readers will see
it as invalid included data. The better newsreaders will automatically
discard this part, but for some years it is going to be an irritant for
the majority of non-Netscape users.
P Nielsen Hayden
>I suppose that Stand On Zanzibar was one of those books you couldn't
>stand due to "wacky graphical tricks."
Maybe, or maybe not. Nobody in this thread has said anything that could give
you good reason to suppose anything about their opinion of Brunner's novel.
You persist in making this sort of overwrought assertion about the broad
tastes and beliefs of those who disagree with you over the (rather narrow)
issue of Usenet posting formats. As a result, you come across as a flame
artist who's isn't interested in arguing in good faith.
Note that I'm not saying that you _are_ such a flame artist. But you need to
get better control of your tone and of your wilder swings, or you'll continue
to convey that impression.
Ulrika
In article <33D108...@concentric.net>, Kelly Lockhart
<kel...@concentric.net> writes:
>A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
Why? Not everyone can have a personal relationship with the
stockholders to establish personal trust. Those fans, and there
are certainly more of them working for DragonCon than can
have such a personal relationship, will have to seek reassurance
by other means. Like, seeing actual records. I see nothing
any more like distrust in such a request or expectation than
I see in DragonCon's refusal to show its records, in direct
conflict with fannish tradition. By this gesture, DC elects to
put itself at odds with, and outside, the mainstream of the
greater community. Where's the trust in *that*?
Ulrika O'Brien, Philosopher Without Portfolio
***ulr...@aol.com***
David E Romm
In article <33D4C69E...@panix.com>, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com>
wrote:
> In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
>
> >Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
> >Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
>
> The suggestion that writing which lacks multiple fonts and illustrations
> must partake only of "a linear mode of thought" is the height of
> conceitedness. Poor Shakespeare, limited to "a linear mode of
> thought."
> Pitiable Flaubert, forced to compose Madame Bovary without benefit of
> .GIF files.
a) Where is it said that 'a linear mode of thought' is a bad thing?
b) They used the high tech of the time. Paper, quills, printing, etc.
> Now that we have computers, goshawhillikers, we sure are smarter.
No, but we have more tools to play with.
I understand the reason behind your sarcasm (heck, I even agree with your
basic point, that writing doesn't need a GUI), but I get annoyed when
people compare levels of technologies without a nod of recognition of what
was 'high tech' at those different levels.
I'm a playwright, and have written plays with many of the same words
Shakespeare used, so I feel confident in saying: Were he writing today,
he probably would be using a different font/style for stage directions,
and adding a footer, and e-mailing drafts. His web site would be full of
pictures of actors and sound files of particularly good soliloquies.
Mayhap I've overreacted to a throwaway post; but you pushed a button.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
Saturday 7/26 6pm: The 1991 Minicon Opening Ceremonies
Ed Kramer
In article <33d2cd4d...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
K-...@worldnet.att.net (Michael P. Kube-McDowell) writes:
>I wonder if D*C's position isn't motivated by concern over the
>possibility that the fees/honorariums paid to the media guests might
>become public knowledge. If Star A finds out what Star B's getting, or
>the fans find out what the stars are demanding, or the writers who're
>expected to be grateful for a room and $100 to eat on discover how the
>other half lives...well, you get the idea.
>
>Best,
>
> K-Mac
Michael,
Dragon Con pays no speaking fees. Media guests that attend are
treated the same as literary guests, with little variation. All guests,
by and large, are treated very well.
We have always been very open with sharing budgetary info with other
conventions that intend to use the information constructively. However,
we have never felt the need to openly publish financials as a matter of
public discussion.
Because of Dragon Con's size, most of the financials would do little
to help smaller cons, however, I have also chaired a WFC and WHC
(attendance 550 and 750, respectively), and would be happy to share those
budgets with others.
The San Diego Comicon, is a 501(C)3, and would be an excellent source
of information on how a con our size operates (although they are a great
deal larger than Dragon Con). Despite the name "Comicon," many of their
roots come from traditional SF conventions, as does their Chairman, John
Rogers.
Ed
P Nielsen Hayden
In article <romm-22079...@192-30.dynamic.visi.com>, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
>In article <33D4C69E...@panix.com>, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com>
>wrote:
>
>> In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
>>
>> >Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
>> >Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
>>
>> The suggestion that writing which lacks multiple fonts and illustrations
>> must partake only of "a linear mode of thought" is the height of
>> conceitedness. Poor Shakespeare, limited to "a linear mode of
>> thought."
>> Pitiable Flaubert, forced to compose Madame Bovary without benefit of
>> .GIF files.
>
>a) Where is it said that 'a linear mode of thought' is a bad thing?
How is this relevant? <fcou...@totcon.com> suggested that not using pictures
or multiple fonts was indicative of being "stuck in a linear mode of thought."
I challenged that. Whether it's a "bad thing" or not is your concern, not
mine.
>I understand the reason behind your sarcasm (heck, I even agree with your
>basic point, that writing doesn't need a GUI), but I get annoyed when
>people compare levels of technologies without a nod of recognition of what
>was 'high tech' at those different levels.
>
>I'm a playwright, and have written plays with many of the same words
>Shakespeare used, so I feel confident in saying: Were he writing today,
>he probably would be using a different font/style for stage directions,
>and adding a footer, and e-mailing drafts. His web site would be full of
>pictures of actors and sound files of particularly good soliloquies.
>
>Mayhap I've overreacted to a throwaway post; but you pushed a button.
I'd say you've overreacted and dragged in a great deal of furniture from the
argument down the hall.
Eugenia
In article <33D4138B...@totcon.com>,
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA <fcou...@totcon.com> wrote:
[MIME messages on Usenet...]
>The only thing I changed was the inability to bold, italic, underline,
>or do any formatting to my messages. Obviously Netscape is smart enough
>to know that if there are no format codes, there is no reason to send
>two messages.
>
>On the other hand, there are times that I need to embed format codes.
>The last time I needed to was in one of the accounting groups when
>answering a question on the proper way to post a certain transaction. I
>created a table and properly posted debits, credits, etc.
What ever happened to T-accounts and spacing?
Kind of like this:
Ming the Merciless's Ming the Merciless's
Invasion Fleet Extorted Cash Account
-------------------- -----------------------
X,XXX,XXX | XXX,XXX,XXX |
1,000,000 | | 1,000,000
| |
JOURNAL ENTRY #1
---------------------------------------------------------------
Spiffy New Starship 1,000,000
Cash 1,000,000
Don't they teach it that way anymore?
Okay, it's an easy one, but it's possible without italics,
bold type, frames and just using the pico editor. (And
even just a pencil and paper).
I just hope the accountants aren't relying on the computers
to do this stuff. It's so easy to wipe out the formulas
on those 3-D worksheets.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prince Albert "in person is [handsome] enough to turn the heads of all
women that are not blind, or who choose to cry sour grapes" - Standford.
Rebecca Ore
p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) writes:
> Note that I'm not saying that you _are_ such a flame artist. But
> you need to get better control of your tone and of your wilder
> swings, or you'll continue to convey that impression.
Come on, Patrick, he's not a flame artist. He's trying to be
a flame artist.
Rebecca Ore
Valiently trying not to laugh.
Wondering what annoying
post I'm supposed to be annoyed with.
Wondering if the dendrobium is
safe out on the balcony.
Bruce Baugh
In article <5r4pv3$j...@news1.panix.com>, P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> How is this relevant? <fcou...@totcon.com> suggested that not using pictures
> or multiple fonts was indicative of being "stuck in a linear mode of thought."
It just occurred to me that William Burroughs and James Joyce
demonstrate the falsehood of the linkage pretty decisely.
--
Bruce Baugh |
ari...@eyrie.org |
"I am what I know, a glacier made from layers of history's snow"
Bob Webber
P Nielsen Hayden (p...@panix.com) wrote:
: In article <33D4145A...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
: >Don't you ever change fonts, or insert pictures in your snail mail?
: >Or are you stuck in a linear mode of thought?
: The suggestion that writing which lacks multiple fonts and illustrations
: must partake only of "a linear mode of thought" is the height of
: conceitedness. Poor Shakespeare, limited to "a linear mode of
: thought."
: Pitiable Flaubert, forced to compose Madame Bovary without benefit of
: .GIF files.
You jest, but if either of those guys had been half as good with Photoshop
as they were with a pen they really woulda had something.
On the other hand, maybe the Elizabethan actors wouldn't have done
so smooth a job if they'd had to figure out little coloured icons
for stage directions.
I tried to escape linear thought in reading the fcoulter bit above
and came up with, "Or don't are you ever you stuck in a change linear
fonts mode, or insert pictures of thought in your snail?" So you see,
fcou...@totcon.com, that that non-linearity you prize can be
achieved without "rANSoM Note: Typ0GraphY!"
Yours with a big helping of Zweibelfisch soup,
Bob
---
web...@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~webber
The development of HTML doesn't mark the invention of gibberish,
just its standardization on the Internet.
Martin Maney
P Nielsen Hayden (p...@panix.com) wrote:
> In article <33D54E1B...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
> >I suppose that Stand On Zanzibar was one of those books you couldn't
> >stand due to "wacky graphical tricks."
> Maybe, or maybe not. Nobody in this thread has said anything that could give
> you good reason to suppose anything about their opinion of Brunner's novel.
What I found most interesting about his comment was that SoZ doesn't HAVE
any "wacky graphical tricks" - at least not in any edition I've ever seen.
What it does have is a lot of strange, non-traditional structure in the
presentation of the story. It's an odd confusion of the literary and the
typographical.
FWIW, I rather liked SoZ. It's been ages, maybe I'll pick it up again next
time I find myself complaining I "don't have a thing to read".
And again, FWIW, if one wants a story with some strange (and strangely
effective, as I recall) typographical graphical effects, Ellison's "The
Region Between" (in _Five Fates_) is a fine example from a good while ago,
distance lending a spurious air of authority in such things. :-)
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> In article <33D54E1B...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
>
> >I suppose that Stand On Zanzibar was one of those books you couldn't
> >stand due to "wacky graphical tricks."
>
> Maybe, or maybe not. Nobody in this thread has said anything that
> could give
> you good reason to suppose anything about their opinion of Brunner's
> novel.
>
> You persist in making this sort of overwrought assertion about the
> broad
> tastes and beliefs of those who disagree with you over the (rather
> narrow)
> issue of Usenet posting formats. As a result, you come across as a
> flame
> artist who's isn't interested in arguing in good faith.
>
> Note that I'm not saying that you _are_ such a flame artist. But you
> need to
> get better control of your tone and of your wilder swings, or you'll
> continue
> to convey that impression.
>
> -----
> Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
I was responding to a message which stated several things about me that
were not really true. As such, I probably did over react. But the
errors of which I am supposedly guilty did not include animated clowns
added to use net messages (something of which I was accused), randomly
changing fonts and other such stuff. When a very occassional use of
bold or italic (the title of a book) is called "wacky graphical tricks,"
I would love to know what he considered wacky.
An so, I might have over reacted.
If you want to see over reaction, you could always go to alt.accounting
(a very small news group) and see my overreaction to a posting that
could probably be considered fraud.
One difference between my overreaction (as defined by you) and an all
and out flame war is that most flamers I've read state definite facts
about the other writer. Instead of "I suppose that you .." you would
get a "You ..." Additionally, there tends to be a bit more personal
insults mixed with vulgarity. In a board that aims for an all age
audience (I went to my first convention when I was a minor all those
many years ago...), I'm trying not to add fodder to the anti-internet
league. Most flamers I've seen can't manage to do that.
But probably the main reason I'm a little brusk on the newsgroups is
that:
a) I do it after working all day and am tired, and
b) My ISP likes to freeze up on me, making me frustrated.
Neither of these are your (or anyone else in this group's) fault.
Unfortunately, sometimes it comes out.
(At least I didn't send Mr. "CPAs are God's Gift to all of Humanity" a
long stream of personal insults. He did deserve them.)
Fredrik Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA
Michael P. Kube-McDowell wrote:
> On 20 Jul 1997 02:38:04 GMT, ka...@sirius.com (Mary Kay Kare) wrote:
>
> >> A demand to see financial records comes across to me as distrust.
> >
> >Seems a tad defensive. Curiosity is, after all, a basic primate
> trait.
> >
> >MK
> >
> >Mary Kay Kare
> >Compuserve's Team SF/F
>
> I wonder if D*C's position isn't motivated by concern over the
> possibility that the fees/honorariums paid to the media guests might
> become public knowledge. If Star A finds out what Star B's getting, or
>
> the fans find out what the stars are demanding, or the writers who're
> expected to be grateful for a room and $100 to eat on discover how the
>
> other half lives...well, you get the idea.
>
> Best,
>
> K-Mac
>
> ---] Michael Paul McDowell, writing as Michael P. Kube-McDowell
> [---
> ---] Author of THE QUIET POOLS and STAR WARS: BEFORE THE STORM
> [---
> ---] Web Site: http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac
> [---
> ---] Newsgroup: sff.people.Kube-McDowell at server NEWS.SFF.NET
> [---
OK, we've hit an area of expertise (as opposed to strongly held
opinion). If the amount of detail in the published financial statements
includes how much you're paying each individual YOU'RE SAYING TOO MUCH!
Go check out Fortune 500 Financial Statements. Most of the companies
have web sites that display their annual reports.
I'm still trying to figure out if, and how, to publish our financial
statements and public disclosure forms online. (No, I'm not going to
post them in pdf format to rec.arts.sf.fandom If I thought I got hate
mail before, that would really do it.)
(Warning: Accounting neep-neeping: Actually, I just had a thought on
how to post online. If pdf can be output by any Windows program that
uses TrueType fonts, and if Intuit prepares 990s in their TurboTax
Series, I suppose I could print them that way. That still leaves me the
problem of how to post a 1023 without scanning in 10 to 20 pages of 8
1/2 by 11)
In general, for an non-profit running a convention, you'd have an income
statement that looks something like this:
Revenues
Program Fees - this is what we would call convention memberships
Contributions
Total Revenues
Expenses
Fred Con I
Guest Fees
Equipment Rental
a couple of other large categories
Operating Expenses
Change in Net Assets
In no way would you publish how much each person got paid, any more than
you would list each check you paid, whether or not you charge women more
than men, etc. Financial statements are big picture items. Even an
1120 (the Corporate Income Tax Form) requires very little detail. If
they want to know, they will audit you. The only item on an 1120 that
gets to be a bit nosy is that they want the officer's salaries separated
from other payroll items.
So, if the reason they don't give out their financial statements is that
they don't want Guest A to find out that Guest B charges more, they need
an new accountant.
Michael P. Kube-McDowell
>So, if the reason they don't give out their financial statements is that
>they don't want Guest A to find out that Guest B charges more, they need
>an new accountant.
Apparently it isn't--Ed Kramer says that the con doesn't pay
appearance money/speaking fees for media guests. I must say I'm
surprised by this news, because I had the distinct impression from the
folks running other cons which bring in media guests (in this area,
that would include Starbase Indy, Marcon, TorontoTrek, etc.) that you
can't get the second assistant walk-on engineer from STAR TREK for
what writer GOHs get (a plane ticket, a room, and meals). But if Ed's
found a way to bring in "name" media guests without getting the con's
pocket picked, more power to him.
(The rest of your message is well taken, though I suspect that even a
general accounting statement showing a disproportionately large
aggregate expenditure for guests would set tongues wagging.)
Best,
K-Mac
[posted and E-mailed]
Michael P. Kube-McDowell
Hiya, Ed. Long time no see.
On 23 Jul 1997 10:29:11 GMT, edkr...@aol.com (Ed Kramer) wrote:
> Dragon Con pays no speaking fees. Media guests that attend are
>treated the same as literary guests, with little variation. All guests,
>by and large, are treated very well.
Does "no speaking fees" include appearance money or honorariums or any
other construction which goes beyond "it won't cost you anything to
come spend the weekend with us"? If so, I'm surprised and impressed.
Over the years I've known a number of people who've worked (concom
level) on cons which bring in media guests, and I've always been given
to understand that media guests by and large would laugh at the kind
of arrangements GOHs and TMs traditionally accept from fannish
gencons. One report was that a star (Shatner/Stewart/etc.) would cost
a con 5 figures, a recognizable name (a regular) would cost a con 4
figures, and an occasional player or guest star at least 3 figures
above and beyond expenses. Was that report greatly exaggerated, or has
Dragon*Con managed to make itself an exception?
Best,
K-Mac
Loren MacGregor
In rec.arts.sf.fandom on Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:19:45 -0400, "Fredrik
Vladimir Coulter, CPA, CMA" <fcou...@totcon.com> said:
>I suppose that Stand On Zanzibar was one of those books you couldn't
>stand due to "wacky graphical tricks."
I thank Patrick for quoting this, so I could go back and dig it out of
your message. "Stand On Zanzibar" (as Martin Maney points out in
another response to you) doesn't have "weird typographical tricks,"
but rather a form of nonlinear narrative akin to and growing out of
John dos Passos' USA trilogy, as well as other contemporary works.
"Tyger, Tyger" (aka "The Stars My Destination," or vice versa) DOES
have typographical oddities, used in service to the story.
I like both novels, for differing reasons; in the context of this
discussion, however, I like them because they use their format in
service to their stories.
I have been on the other side of this argument as relates to web
pages, where I want people, as much as possible, to see my web page in
a manner as close to my conception as possible. As people who have
worked with me in graphic design can tell you, I have very definite
and not always sensible ideas of design and layout.
But messages, especially in the usenet sense, are designed to be
textual, and to be passed across the network as transparently as
possible. It is perfectly true to say (as one poster -- Stevens
Miller? -- has said here) that originally the purpose of the web was
to share data, not messages, often in the form of large binary files;
but since that point, when electronic mail as a separate structure was
created, the purpose has been primarily to share text.
If you need to share binary data over usenet, there are of course
areas where you can post this material. If you need to send tables
and other graphics to your clients and colleagues, that too is a
legitimate need. But there are many tools for doing so, outside of
the heirarchy, and they work perfectly well.
Note how I have written this entire piece without "wacky typographical
tricks?" <irony>It must be because I think so linearly.</irony>
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
lmac...@efn.org
David E Romm
> How is this relevant? <fcou...@totcon.com> suggested that not using
pictures
> or multiple fonts was indicative of being "stuck in a linear mode of
thought."
> I challenged that. Whether it's a "bad thing" or not is your concern, not
> mine.
> I'd say you've overreacted and dragged in a great deal of furniture from the
> argument down the hall.
Some of us are stuck in a non-linear mode of thought.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
And some of us like it. Or not.
P Nielsen Hayden
In article <romm-23079...@192-30.dynamic.visi.com>, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
>In article <5r4pv3$j...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden)
> wrote:
>
>> How is this relevant? <fcou...@totcon.com> suggested that not using
>pictures
>> or multiple fonts was indicative of being "stuck in a linear mode of
>thought."
>> I challenged that. Whether it's a "bad thing" or not is your concern, not
>> mine.
>
>> I'd say you've overreacted and dragged in a great deal of furniture from the
>> argument down the hall.
>
>Some of us are stuck in a non-linear mode of thought.
I find that WD-40 helps, followed by vigorous use of Norton Brain Doctor.
P Nielsen Hayden
>"Tyger, Tyger" (aka "The Stars My Destination," or vice versa) DOES
>have typographical oddities, used in service to the story.
I suspect you're thinking of THE DEMOLISHED MAN.
>But messages, especially in the usenet sense, are designed to be
>textual, and to be passed across the network as transparently as
>possible. It is perfectly true to say (as one poster -- Stevens
>Miller? -- has said here) that originally the purpose of the web was
>to share data, not messages, often in the form of large binary files;
>but since that point, when electronic mail as a separate structure was
>created, the purpose has been primarily to share text.
I puzzled over this until finally guessing that you must be using "the web" to
mean "the net," which is idiosyncratic. I mean, originally the purpose of the
Web was so that scientists at CERN could share work-in-progress, linking
documents from one to another. I don't believe binary files entered into it
at all for quite a while.
I can't resist wondering about why you, of all people, would be resistant to
using the term "the net"... :)
David E Romm
In article <33d6d781....@news.efn.org>, lmac...@efn.org wrote:
> In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 24 Jul 1997 04:02:52 GMT, ro...@visi.com
> (David E Romm) said:
>
> >Some of us are stuck in a non-linear mode of thought.
>
> "Fish."
Bicycle.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
P Nielsen Hayden
>But probably the main reason I'm a little brusk on the newsgroups is
>that:
>a) I do it after working all day and am tired, and
>b) My ISP likes to freeze up on me, making me frustrated.
Many sins can be forgiven one who is wrestling with a recalcitrant ISP.
Aahz
In article <romm-24079...@192-30.dynamic.visi.com>,
David E Romm <ro...@visi.com> wrote:
>In article <33d6d781....@news.efn.org>, lmac...@efn.org wrote:
>> In rec.arts.sf.fandom on 24 Jul 1997 04:02:52 GMT, ro...@visi.com
>> (David E Romm) said:
>>
>> >Some of us are stuck in a non-linear mode of thought.
>>
>> "Fish."
>
>Bicycle.
Woman.
Loren MacGregor
In article <5r7erm$h...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com says...
>
>In article <33d6d839....@news.efn.org>, lmac...@efn.org wrote:
>
>>"Tyger, Tyger" (aka "The Stars My Destination," or vice versa) DOES
>>have typographical oddities, used in service to the story.
>
>I suspect you're thinking of THE DEMOLISHED MAN.
What is it with you and Gary? In recent days you've BOTH corrected
me for errors in which you have been incorrect. The Stars My
Destination. Gully Foyle's latter, uncontrolled jauntings,
where sounds and sights came at him in odd, typographic waves.
Much like the drug bubbles inducing religious rhapsody in the
first (the second?) volume of Cities In Flight (haven't read it
in a while).
I have never been able to finish The Demolished Man, so never got
as far as any possible typographical tricks.
>>But messages, especially in the usenet sense, are designed to be
>>textual, and to be passed across the network as transparently as
>>possible. It is perfectly true to say (as one poster -- Stevens
>>Miller? -- has said here) that originally the purpose of the web was
>>to share data, not messages, often in the form of large binary files;
>>but since that point, when electronic mail as a separate structure was
>>created, the purpose has been primarily to share text.
>
>I puzzled over this until finally guessing that you must be using "the web" to
>mean "the net," which is idiosyncratic. I mean, originally the purpose of the
>Web was so that scientists at CERN could share work-in-progress, linking
>documents from one to another. I don't believe binary files entered into it
>at all for quite a while.
That wasn't my impression, which could easily be wrong. In dong some
research for a lecture, I repeatedly came across some variation of the
phrase "data and programs"; I took that to mean compiled programs,
which were sent across in binary form. This was only my impression,
and I was probably placing my own interpretation on what I was reading.
>I can't resist wondering about why you, of all people, would be resistant to
>using the term "the net"... :)
Well, for *one* thing, whenever I say, "I wrote 'The Net' these days, I
have to hurriedly say, "That's a science fiction novel that has nothing
to do with the Sandra Bullock movie." The second reason is that, off of
the net, more people *thought* they knew what I mean when I said "the
web" then thought they knew what I meant when I said "the net." Thus,
eventually, I got lazy and capitulated.
So, basically, I have no excuse.
-- LJM
P Nielsen Hayden
In article <5r7tpf$5...@drn.zippo.com>, lmac...@efn.org (Loren MacGregor) wrote:
>In article <5r7erm$h...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com says...
>>
>>In article <33d6d839....@news.efn.org>, lmac...@efn.org wrote:
>>
>>>"Tyger, Tyger" (aka "The Stars My Destination," or vice versa) DOES
>>>have typographical oddities, used in service to the story.
>>
>>I suspect you're thinking of THE DEMOLISHED MAN.
>
>What is it with you and Gary? In recent days you've BOTH corrected
>me for errors in which you have been incorrect. The Stars My
>Destination. Gully Foyle's latter, uncontrolled jauntings,
>where sounds and sights came at him in odd, typographic waves.
>Much like the drug bubbles inducing religious rhapsody in the
>first (the second?) volume of Cities In Flight (haven't read it
>in a while).
You're quite right; I had forgotten about the latter bits of THE STARS MY
DESTINATION.
As for "what is it with you and Gary," I dunno, what is it with you and Alison
Scott? In recent days you've both posted paragraphs with the letter "e" in
them.
Bernard Peek
In alt.fandom.cons, article <33d8667a...@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
Michael Dillson <dillson@_mindspring.com> writes
>Just a general posed question:
>
>When was the last time *your* (meaning a convention that any of you are
>affiliated with) convention was asked for a financial statement (outside of
>a WorldCon)?
As far as I know no convention that I have worked on has ever been asked
for a financial statement.
Every convention I have worked on has voluntarily published a financial
statement.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
P Nielsen Hayden
In article <5r86vq$b...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>I'm also actually an AI at Panix, and those new 22 gigabytes are really
>going to Smarten Me Up. I may even post new, rilly smart, annotations of
>"Egoboo For Algernon," which will take it to a New Level. Wait for it.
>(Rich brown will annotate my annotations, of course.) Or perhaps I'll use
>my new hoax personality, "Kathy Routliffe."
>
>I'm also going to start campaigning for myself for the "Best Fan Writer"
>Hugo because *funny* campaigns are Kewl, and if anyone objects, I can
>claim they have No Sense Of Irony: that works every time.
>
>Now, how many places can I cross-post this message to?
I dunno, but I'M SENDING A SECURITY REPORT TO YOUR EMPLOYER. Ha ha ha! You
fell into my trap!
Sharon L Sbarsky
In article <33d8667a...@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
Michael Dillson <dillson@_mindspring.com> wrote:
>Just a general posed question:
>
>When was the last time *your* (meaning a convention that any of you are
>affiliated with) convention was asked for a financial statement (outside of
>a WorldCon)?
>
Many conventions aren't *asked* for a financial statement, only because
many provide it without asking in Club newsletters, etc.
i.e. Boskone's budget and reports appear in Instant Message which is sent
to all NESFAns. A NESFA membership is available to anyone for $16 a year,
which includes the bi-monthly newsletter and sometimes-quarterly genzine,
Proper Boskonian. More information about NESFA can be found at
http://www.nesfa.org/
We hadn't had a non-NESFAn be interested enough to ask for a financial in
a long time. It's hard enough getting the NESFAns interested in reading
the reports. :-)
Sharon
Kevin Standlee
dillson@_mindspring.com (Michael Dillson) writes:
> When was the last time *your* (meaning a convention that any of you are
> affiliated with) convention was asked for a financial statement (outside of
> a WorldCon)?
I seem to remember some Westercons publishing their numbers (although
unlike Worldcon they are not required to do so by their organizing
document). OryCon generally publishes financial figures, too, doesn't
it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Kevin Standlee -> (stan...@LunaCity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140
Gary Farber
In <5r8c7c$c...@news1.panix.com> P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: I dunno, but I'M SENDING A SECURITY REPORT TO YOUR EMPLOYER. Ha ha ha! You
: fell into my trap!
Loser! You are as sad and lonely and short of friends as is Seth
Breidbart! My math goes right over your head, and you OWE ME AN APOLOGY!
This thread isn't about traps! It's about Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions! Stop polluting it! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
[l'il panix.injoke here, due to a local fugghead smelling up the panix
newsgroups; he'll likely use DejaNews on me to compile another dossier if
I piss him off any more: ooo.]
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA
Bernard Peek
In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <33d6ba04....@news.efn.org>, Loren
MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> writes
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:28:08 +0100, Bernard Peek
><b...@intersec.demon.co.uk> said:
>
>>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <33d283ba....@news.efn.org>, Loren
>>MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> writes
>>
>>>But simply saying, "You have a shitty newsreader" only says, "I am
>>>superior to you; you are a worm." Not particularly helpful.
>>
>>But very cathartic.
>
>Ah. "Bernard, old son, you have a shitty newsreader."
>
>You're right. I feel much better.
Glad to be of service.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk
Gary Farber
: DESTINATION.
And I wasn't aware that CONTACT (still unseen by mine eyes, impatient as
they are, due to the emptiness of my wallet) used Clinton footage about
Oklahoma, as well as about the alleged Mars rock; presuming Loren is
correct, I offer him my apology.
: As for "what is it with you and Gary," I dunno, what is it with you and
: Alison Scott? In recent days you've both posted paragraphs with the
: letter "e" in them.
People never offer corrections on Usenet: it must *mean* something.
Sssh. Don't tell Loren about our Cronies (tm) standing by to persecute
him with false corrections and malicious intent. He might find out that
it's because we're Nazi Anti-Semetes (tm) being paid by Dragon*Con which
is being run by Guardians out to get Misty Lackey (and Chuck Heston should
watch out). Woo-woo. (Puzzled readers who are monogamous with rass-eff
are directed to recent Good Times in alt.fandom.cons.)
We also had Jack Chalker's book canceled and reinstated, and had Claudia
Christian fired from BABYLON 5: but don't tell anyone.
I'm also actually an AI at Panix, and those new 22 gigabytes are really
going to Smarten Me Up. I may even post new, rilly smart, annotations of
"Egoboo For Algernon," which will take it to a New Level. Wait for it.
(Rich brown will annotate my annotations, of course.) Or perhaps I'll use
my new hoax personality, "Kathy Routliffe."
I'm also going to start campaigning for myself for the "Best Fan Writer"
Hugo because *funny* campaigns are Kewl, and if anyone objects, I can
claim they have No Sense Of Irony: that works every time.
Now, how many places can I cross-post this message to?
Elisabeth Carey
Sharon L Sbarsky <sba...@world.std.com> wrote in article
<EDu8C...@world.std.com>...
> In article <33d8667a...@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
> Michael Dillson <dillson@_mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Just a general posed question:
> >
> >affiliated with) convention was asked for a financial statement (outside
of
> >a WorldCon)?
> >
>
> Many conventions aren't *asked* for a financial statement, only because
> many provide it without asking in Club newsletters, etc.
>
> i.e. Boskone's budget and reports appear in Instant Message which is sent
> to all NESFAns. A NESFA membership is available to anyone for $16 a year,
> which includes the bi-monthly newsletter and sometimes-quarterly genzine,
> Proper Boskonian. More information about NESFA can be found at
> http://www.nesfa.org/
>
> We hadn't had a non-NESFAn be interested enough to ask for a financial in
> a long time. It's hard enough getting the NESFAns interested in reading
> the reports. :-)
But just think how popular the reports would be if we started hinting that
they were _secret_.:)
Lis Carey
Ed Kramer
sch...@interlog.com (Stephen Christian) wrote:
>In another thread someone was talking about "the books" Last year we put
>our numbers in the program booklet. Those who cared to read it believed
>we were lying about the numbers. So we still couldn't win!
I have the general feeling that this is the position that we are in,
Stephen. Therefore, we have not felt the necessity for public disclosure.
However, as I have stated earlier, we gladly share a significant amount
of data with other conventions that wish to use the information
constructively.
>Anyone thinking that conventions (fan run) are racking up tonnes of money
and
>are giving away tonnes of perks to the ConCom needs to join a ConCom.
>That's what we do with them!
>
>If you think it can be done better we want you on board! If it can
you're
>only doing us a favour! If you can't well, now you know the truth.
>
>Co-Chair TT12.
We are always looking for good additional Staff Members and Directors. I
almost consider it a compliment when we loose a staff member simply
because they don't want to miss a single moment of the convention and
pre-register for the next year instead.
Ed Kramer
Loren MacGregor
In rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:28:08 +0100, Bernard Peek
<b...@intersec.demon.co.uk> said:
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <33d283ba....@news.efn.org>, Loren
>MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> writes
>
>>But simply saying, "You have a shitty newsreader" only says, "I am
>>superior to you; you are a worm." Not particularly helpful.
>
>But very cathartic.
Ah. "Bernard, old son, you have a shitty newsreader."
You're right. I feel much better.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
lmac...@efn.org
Loren MacGregor
>In article <5r4pv3$j...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>> How is this relevant? <fcou...@totcon.com> suggested that not using
>pictures
>> or multiple fonts was indicative of being "stuck in a linear mode of
>thought."
>> I challenged that. Whether it's a "bad thing" or not is your concern, not
>> mine.
>
>> I'd say you've overreacted and dragged in a great deal of furniture from the
>> argument down the hall.
>
>Some of us are stuck in a non-linear mode of thought.
"Fish."
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
lmac...@efn.org
Loren MacGregor
In article <5r85uh$r...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com says...
>
>As for "what is it with you and Gary," I dunno, what is it with you and Alison
>Scott? In recent days you've both posted paragraphs with the letter "e" in
>them.
I don't know about Alison, but my Ş key is broken.
-- LJM
Chris Malme
>In article <33D6B050...@totcon.com>, fcou...@totcon.com wrote:
>>But probably the main reason I'm a little brusk on the newsgroups is
>>that:
>>a) I do it after working all day and am tired, and
>>b) My ISP likes to freeze up on me, making me frustrated.
>Many sins can be forgiven one who is wrestling with a recalcitrant ISP.
You're lucky you can get through to wrestle. We have to catch ours
first.
Chris
Marilee J. Layman
In <5r7tpf$5...@drn.zippo.com>, lmac...@efn.org (Loren MacGregor)
wrote:
>In article <5r7erm$h...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com says...
>>
>>In article <33d6d839....@news.efn.org>, lmac...@efn.org wrote:
>>
>>>"Tyger, Tyger" (aka "The Stars My Destination," or vice versa) DOES
>>>have typographical oddities, used in service to the story.
>>
>>I suspect you're thinking of THE DEMOLISHED MAN.
>
>What is it with you and Gary? In recent days you've BOTH corrected
>me for errors in which you have been incorrect. The Stars My
>Destination. Gully Foyle's latter, uncontrolled jauntings,
>where sounds and sights came at him in odd, typographic waves.
<snip>
Though, to be fair to Patrick, THE DEMOLISHED MAN also has
typographical tricks to display the "espers" thinking. I just reread
it, and I had to wonder if the "patterning" in group esping wasn't as
much work as figuring out who was saying what when it was
non-patterned. In any case, I thought the typographical
representation of Bester's esper thought was at least necessary to his
intention of how it works, while the icky romance wasn't.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
RELM Mu...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
**New** Web site: http://home.virtual-pc.com/outland/owc/index.html
AOL keyword: FR > Science Fiction > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)