Brainless cat story, with a happy ending
Joel Rosenberg
He appears to turn invisible at times, and be gone; you generally only
know when his best friend, Tennetty-the-dog, is whining at the back
door that it's time to let Bart in.
I've done my best both to persuade the womenfolk in the household to
be more careful about his sneaking out, and to be more careful myself
-- but he's real, real good.
Nobody saw him at all yesterday, and expeditions out into the
neighborhood to search for him were unsuccessful. He'd never been
gone this long before. My assumption is that he'd gotten hit by a
car, or another cat, or something.
So, this morning, we started the full-house search, just in case. I
didn't have much hope; most internal doors are generally kept open.
Bart was waiting, patiently to be rescued, in the sauna. The door
pushes outward, and from the claw marks on the outside it's clear that
he had worked, very hard, at applying around the twenty pounds of
force that's necessary to swing it out and open, and then had trotted
inside, quickly, before it closed.
Pulling was one thing, but pushing another; he was, apparently unable
to push twenty pounds' worth...
Glad we did the search. After eating enough for two cats and drinking
enough for three, he settled down to a quick wrestling match with the
dog, got chewed up a little and licked a lot, and then a nap.
Celtic Ferret
"Joel Rosenberg" <jo...@ellegon.com> wrote in message
news:m1y8vhk...@joelr.ellegon.com...
> Bart, our five-or-so-year old boy cat, has a tendency to sneak out.
> He appears to turn invisible at times, and be gone; you generally only
> know when his best friend, Tennetty-the-dog, is whining at the back
> door that it's time to let Bart in.
>
Lost my ferret Hobbes in the house recently. He turned up in an empty cage
that had food and water in, but hadn't been torn down and put away yet.
KG
Kate Gladstone
started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
opposable thumbs)?
If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - ka...@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dorothy J Heydt
Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>Do I recall correctly that Leslie Fish breeds super-brainy cats (and has
>started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
>opposable thumbs)?
Last I heard.
>
>If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
>apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
I don't know. ISTR she says they have about the intelligence of
a human six-year-old, only without the ability to abstract.
But they're very very good at getting into places they shouldn't
be in.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Do I recall correctly that Leslie Fish breeds super-brainy cats (and has
>started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
>opposable thumbs)?
Yes.
>If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
>apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
Darned if I know. But I often understand my cats even though they
don't speak English.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Handmade Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
David T. Bilek
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <kate-D13D1F.1...@syrcnyrdrs-02-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>,
>Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>>Do I recall correctly that Leslie Fish breeds super-brainy cats (and has
>>started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
>>opposable thumbs)?
>
>Last I heard.
>>
>>If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
>>apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
>
>I don't know. ISTR she says they have about the intelligence of
>a human six-year-old, only without the ability to abstract.
>
I'd be very curious as to where she got that six-year-old figure. It
strikes me as absurdly unlikely.
-David
Celtic Ferret
"Kate Gladstone" <ka...@global2000.net> wrote in message
news:kate-D13D1F.1...@syrcnyrdrs-02-ge0.nyroc.rr.com...
> Do I recall correctly that Leslie Fish breeds super-brainy cats (and has
> started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
> opposable thumbs)?
>
> If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
> apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
>
> --
be there.
KG
Kate Gladstone
> OVFF is this weekend, perhaps a social acquaitnance who knows here cats will
> be there.
Unfortunately, I'd expected not to stay home this weekend and had (for
that reason and for other schedule-related reasons) not made plans to go
to OVFF.
Celtic Ferret
"David T. Bilek" <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0826pv8jghet9t2qu...@4ax.com...
intelligence of a 3 yr old child. After that wehn you get into problems
solving abilities that intelligence measures do things differently.
Dogs are pack animals. Cats are solitary. Ferrets have extremely short
attentions spans for many problems solving things.
KG
James Nicoll
had as one of the member species one that was widely acknowledged
to be smarter than all the others but seriously limited by their short
attention spans. As I recall, we never actually ran into them but the
rule of thumb was that if you convince them the problem was interesting,
they usually could solve any problem. Mostly, they couldn't be bothered.
Interstellar mycrofts, I suppose.
--
It's amazing how the waterdrops form: a ball of water with an air bubble
inside it and inside of that one more bubble of water. It looks so beautiful
[...]. I realized something: the world is interesting for the man who can
be surprised. -Valentin Lebedev-
Alan Braggins
>In article <kate-D13D1F.1...@syrcnyrdrs-02-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>,
>Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
>>Do I recall correctly that Leslie Fish breeds super-brainy cats (and has
>>started working polydactyly into the mix, in hopes to give them
>>opposable thumbs)?
>
>Last I heard.
>>
>>If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
>>apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
>
>I don't know. ISTR she says they have about the intelligence of
>a human six-year-old, only without the ability to abstract.
My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
Elisabeth Riba
> My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
> acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
Given the subject of this thread, I misread the above sentence as saying
"My cat has..."
And, having watch my cat having the crazies, running like a maniac down
the (somewhat slippery) hardwood floors, I would agree that cats also have
higher impressions of their own acceleration, top speed, braking and cornering.
--
------> Elisabeth Riba * http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/ <------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever piss one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"
James Nicoll
Elisabeth Riba <l...@osmond-riba.org> wrote:
>Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
>> acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
>
>Given the subject of this thread, I misread the above sentence as saying
>"My cat has..."
>
>And, having watch my cat having the crazies, running like a maniac down
>the (somewhat slippery) hardwood floors, I would agree that cats also have
>higher impressions of their own acceleration, top speed, braking and cornering.
>
in the comfy chair, legs and muzzle twitching in her sleep, when she took
off like a rocket across the room and into the wall. Her attempt to look
dignified afterwards was less successful than the time she got the waterpot
stuck on her head.
Andrew Plotkin
>
> Hillary recently showed me what sleep-running looks like.
> She was in the comfy chair, legs and muzzle twitching in her sleep,
> when she took off like a rocket across the room and into the wall.
> Her attempt to look dignified afterwards was less successful than
> the time she got the waterpot stuck on her head.
You cat people often describe cats acting like nothing funny happened.
Do cats visibly notice when something funny happens? I mean, when
Hillary was trying to look dignified, were there other cats trying to
undermine her? Doing the ailurin equivalent of pointing and giggling
and clutching their stomachs?
I'd think that the one social behavior wouldn't exist without the
other.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
James Nicoll
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hillary recently showed me what sleep-running looks like.
>> She was in the comfy chair, legs and muzzle twitching in her sleep,
>> when she took off like a rocket across the room and into the wall.
>> Her attempt to look dignified afterwards was less successful than
>> the time she got the waterpot stuck on her head.
>
>You cat people often describe cats acting like nothing funny happened.
>Do cats visibly notice when something funny happens? I mean, when
>Hillary was trying to look dignified, were there other cats trying to
>undermine her? Doing the ailurin equivalent of pointing and giggling
>and clutching their stomachs?
>
>I'd think that the one social behavior wouldn't exist without the
>other.
Cats have two general reactions to other cats screwing up and
it depends on the status the other cat has to the observer.
Kitten/littermate: Quick check to see if they are ok.
Rival: attack while the other cat is at a disadvantage.
(There's also the 'Attack Groucho Because He's Lowest on the Pecking
Order' reaction and the 'Cleo bites James' one because apparently my job is
make sure nothing startling happens).
I think the 'I'm OK, nothing to see here' thing is to deter the
second reaction.
Celtic Ferret
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bn0p3d$l3m$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> A home-grown roleplaying game campaign I was in a decade ago
> had as one of the member species one that was widely acknowledged
> to be smarter than all the others but seriously limited by their short
> attention spans. As I recall, we never actually ran into them but the
> rule of thumb was that if you convince them the problem was interesting,
> they usually could solve any problem. Mostly, they couldn't be bothered.
>
> Interstellar mycrofts, I suppose.
> --
problem solving skills if you can get them interested in the problem. The
mink is much better attention spanwise, has less interest in actual problem
solving. to some degree, they rely on cleverness and bruit force for their
hunting.
KG
Pete McCutchen
Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>If so, do they talk yet? (since Leslie, I've heard, gives them names
>>apparently in cat-language - "Mrrrrrowrfr" and the like)
>
>I don't know. ISTR she says they have about the intelligence of
>a human six-year-old, only without the ability to abstract.
I'm skeptical of the estimates of animal intelligence by the folks who
work with the animals in question; I think that there's a lot of room
for wishful thinking.
Nor do I know what it would mean to have the intelligence of a human
six-year-old "only without the ability to abstract." The ability to
abstract is, to a great extent, what human intelligence is. Saying an
animal has the intelligence of a human child except for the ability to
abstract is kind of like me saying that I'm as strong as Rumanian
weightlifter, except for the ability to lift really heavy objects.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
<katgall@"nospam'voyager.net> wrote:
>> I'd be very curious as to where she got that six-year-old figure. It
>> strikes me as absurdly unlikely.
>>
>Both cats and dogs and my beloved ferrets are considered to have the
>intelligence of a 3 yr old child. After that wehn you get into problems
>solving abilities that intelligence measures do things differently.
"Considered" by whom? Animal breeders?
And see my other comment. And what does it possibly mean to say that
a ferret is intelligent but lacks "problem solving abilities"? Isn't
that part of what intelligence is? Like abstraction?
--
Pete McCutchen
Celtic Ferret
"Pete McCutchen" <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:n754pvo4c6tgvfi0b...@4ax.com...
can't. That problem solving ability is part of survivial skills. In the
wild, the cleverest animals are more likely survive than those with less
developed skills.
Ferret engage in "egg stealing" behavior. It has a survival value. Digging
out prey such as rabbits who dig in and removing a large rock from the
tunnel it is busy clearning as the rabbit is busy trying to bury itself, or
bury itself and head for a back door exit.
I've never seen my few dogs or cats ever engage in egg stealing behavior.
They ate hard boild eggs, but never carreied them off by grabbing them in
their paws and walking backwards.
Comparsons between species depends on the test applied and whetehr or not
the animals has the skills being tested for.
KG
Dorothy J Heydt
OK, I just checked the website
<http://www.prometheus-music.com/eli/fishltr.html>
(start about one screenful down) and I see I misquoted her. She
says they are on average "about as smart as a six-year-old human
child--except for language. They don't have symbolism--the idea
that one thing can STAND FOR another; their 'language' is all
analog, made up of sounds, gestures, poses, smells, etc., all of
which have direct meanings, not symbolic ones."
And I see that was ten years ago. I wish she'd let us know what
the cats are up to these days.
Kate Gladstone
> " ... don't have symbolism--the idea
> that one thing can STAND FOR another ... "
I've met some people who (in this regard, at least - this matter of
knowing that "one thing can stand for another") may have decided to
reduce the next generation to cat-level.
Case in point:
not too long ago, on a bus-trip through New Jersey (my work has me
travel quite frequently), I sat opposite a youngish woman and her
(apparently) seven or eight-year-old daughter.
The little girl had a map of the state in her hands, and
excitedly pointed at & read aloud some city- and town-names apparently
familiar to her: saying things like "Look, Mommy: Princeton! ... This
map shows New Jersey!" ...
... to which remark the mother responded by clouting her on the
left temple and saying loudly: "You silly kid - that map IS New Jersey!"
David T. Bilek
>In article <0826pv8jghet9t2qu...@4ax.com>,
>David T. Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:27:53 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>
>>>I don't know. ISTR she says they have about the intelligence of
>>>a human six-year-old, only without the ability to abstract.
>>
>>I'd be very curious as to where she got that six-year-old figure. It
>>strikes me as absurdly unlikely.
>
>OK, I just checked the website
>
><http://www.prometheus-music.com/eli/fishltr.html>
>
>(start about one screenful down) and I see I misquoted her. She
>says they are on average "about as smart as a six-year-old human
>child--except for language. They don't have symbolism--the idea
>that one thing can STAND FOR another; their 'language' is all
>analog, made up of sounds, gestures, poses, smells, etc., all of
>which have direct meanings, not symbolic ones."
>
Having read the section on cats, I can say with confidence that Leslie
Fish doesn't know what she's talking about in terms when it comes to
psychology, neurology, or intelligence..
-David
Thomas Yan
> You cat people often describe cats acting like nothing funny happened.
> Do cats visibly notice when something funny happens? I mean, when
> Hillary was trying to look dignified, were there other cats trying to
> undermine her? Doing the ailurin equivalent of pointing and giggling
> and clutching their stomachs?
ailurin? Looks like a synonym for feline, but the etymology eludes me.
Dorothy J Heydt
Could also be spelled ailurian or ailurine.
From ailuros, Greek for cat. You might be familiar with the words
"ailurophile" or "ailurophobe."
Karen Lofstrom
Pete McCutchen wrote:
> Nor do I know what it would mean to have the intelligence of a human
> six-year-old "only without the ability to abstract."
It means that my cats are capable of learning to do complicated things, in
order to get a certain reward. Twit has discovered that she likes to climb
on top of me, when I'm lying flat on my back, and knead my stomach. Mmmm,
feels just like mom. She learned that by trial and error. However, she
remembers the trial that led to the reward in too much detail, so that
every time she does this, she has to climb on my right shoulder and thence
onto my stomach. She hasn't figured out that there are OTHER ways to get
onto my stomach.
I think that's damn smart, to have learned such a complicated and specific
procedure. It's also stupid, not to be able to generalize from it.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ta hifo ki liku 'o tou siale
Kakala nanamu ke tui tavale
Dorothy J Heydt
Karen Lofstrom <lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
>
>It means that my cats are capable of learning to do complicated things, in
>order to get a certain reward. Twit has discovered that she likes to climb
>on top of me, when I'm lying flat on my back, and knead my stomach. Mmmm,
>feels just like mom. She learned that by trial and error. However, she
>remembers the trial that led to the reward in too much detail, so that
>every time she does this, she has to climb on my right shoulder and thence
>onto my stomach. She hasn't figured out that there are OTHER ways to get
>onto my stomach.
>
>I think that's damn smart, to have learned such a complicated and specific
>procedure. It's also stupid, not to be able to generalize from it.
Reminds me of a tale originally told, I think, by Mark Twain.
There was a farmer who had a horse and wagon. Once a year he
drove them on a trip to the county seat. It involved crossing a
stream, narrow but too deep to ford, by means of a bridge. One
year he came to the stream and discovered that the bridge had
been washed out. He said, "Mabel, jump!" Mabel hunched her
shoulders, took a mighty leap, and leapt over the stream wagon
and all.
The following year he returned to the site to discover that the
bridge had been rebuilt. Mabel eyed the stream, hunched her
shoulders, and leapt over the bridge. This showed that she had
an excellent memory but mighty poor judgment.
> Ta hifo ki liku 'o tou siale
> Kakala nanamu ke tui tavale
Translation?
David G. Bell
<n754pvo4c6tgvfi0b...@4ax.com>
p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net "Pete McCutchen" wrote:
It's the difference between a Swiss Army Knife and a Leatherman.
Intelligence is a set of tools. And if you only have a hammer, every
problem is a nail. Abstraction is one of the tools. "problem solving
abilities" does seem a bit too sweeping, but finding a way to avoid
needing to solve a problem is also a sign of intelligence.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"History shows that the Singularity started when Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
Kate Gladstone
> ... my cats are capable of learning to do complicated things, in
> order to get a certain reward. Twit has discovered that she likes to climb
> on top of me, when I'm lying flat on my back, and knead my stomach. Mmmm,
> feels just like mom. She learned that by trial and error. However, she
> remembers the trial that led to the reward in too much detail, so that
> every time she does this, she has to climb on my right shoulder and thence
> onto my stomach. She hasn't figured out that there are OTHER ways to get
> onto my stomach.
Hmmm ... just for the sake of the experiment, have you tried lying down
with her in your arms, moving her from the side of your body onto your
stomach, and (if necessary a a final clue) kneading her paws on your
stomach until she gets the hint?
If you do this, let me know if it works as a method of teaching her
another way to get what she wants.
Kate Gladstone
Kate Gladstone
> ... a tale originally told, I think, by Mark Twain.
> There was a farmer who had a horse and wagon. Once a year he
> drove them on a trip to the county seat. It involved crossing a
> stream, narrow but too deep to ford, by means of a bridge. One
> year he came to the stream and discovered that the bridge had
> been washed out. He said, "Mabel, jump!" Mabel hunched her
> shoulders, took a mighty leap, and leapt over the stream wagon
> and all.
Twain also said, in FOLLOWING THE EQUATOR:
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that
is in it蟻nd stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot
stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again蟻nd that is
well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore."
Nancy Lebovitz
What are the specific things she doesn't know?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
David T. Bilek
Lebovitz) wrote:
>In article <ko89pv8hr1qdhbcft...@4ax.com>,
>David T. Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>
>>><http://www.prometheus-music.com/eli/fishltr.html>
>>>
>>>(start about one screenful down) and I see I misquoted her. She
>>>says they are on average "about as smart as a six-year-old human
>>>child--except for language. They don't have symbolism--the idea
>>>that one thing can STAND FOR another; their 'language' is all
>>>analog, made up of sounds, gestures, poses, smells, etc., all of
>>>which have direct meanings, not symbolic ones."
>>>
>>
>>Having read the section on cats, I can say with confidence that Leslie
>>Fish doesn't know what she's talking about in terms when it comes to
>>psychology, neurology, or intelligence..
>
>What are the specific things she doesn't know?
It's not so much what she doesn't know but rather that she thinks she
is smarter than she is and has some sort of special knowledge.
I quote:
"The experiment showed me some things about the nature of intelligence
which the official psychologists still haven't figured out, much to my
amusement."
"First, increased skull and brain size/capacity doesn't automatically
guarantee intelligence; they just set up favorable conditions for it.
Second, increased intelligence requires a high-protein diet and lots
of sensory stimulation from birth (pet, cuddle and play with kittens
-- or any mammalian babies -- from the day they're born, and they turn
out smart. Simple!). Third: intelligence is not made up of any one
thing (such as memory or neural connections or "problem-solving
capacity"), but is a complex of several things -- and a critter can
have a large amount of one, and a small amount of another."
She seems to have a bit of an inflated ego. Those aren't stunning
revelations that "official psychologists" haven't figured out, they
are completely obvious ideas that are taken for granted. Who
*doesn't* know that sensory stimulation is necessary for a
well-adjusted intelligent child? Who doesn't know that intelligence
is a complex thing? Who doesn't know that a larger brain doesn't
necessarily lead to greater ingelligence (though it does help)?
Apparently the "official psychologists".
So when she goes on to say, "My cats, for instance, are on average
about as smart as a six-year-old human child -- except for language" I
can't help but be suspicious. She is pulling that number from the
"73% of all Usenet statistics are made up!" department.
-David
Kristopher
<snip>
> Who *doesn't* know that sensory stimulation is necessary
> for a well-adjusted intelligent child?
<snip>
You'd be surprised. Unless screaming "Leave that alone."
every five minutes and otherwise ignoring the kid as it
pulls things off the shelves counts as sensory stimulation.
--
Kristopher
The question is not "What," or "How," but rather "-Why-?"
Celtic Ferret
"Kristopher" <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote in message
news:3F95533A...@net-link.net...
> "David T. Bilek" wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Who *doesn't* know that sensory stimulation is necessary
> > for a well-adjusted intelligent child?
>
> <snip>
>
> You'd be surprised. Unless screaming "Leave that alone."
> every five minutes and otherwise ignoring the kid as it
> pulls things off the shelves counts as sensory stimulation.
>
> --
them. Don't let the kid touch the valuables we leave down at arm's reach.
Without a cat all the good stuff is in the china cabinet. My husband
recently broke one of his favorite dragons. He's glued it back together.
It's not the same. I'm not sure I can get him another one with the same
caliber paint job.
KG
Karen Lofstrom
Kate Gladstone wrote:
> Karen Lofstrom - please translate your (Samoan?) sign-off,
It's Tongan (but Samoan is a good guess) and the surface meaning is:
Let's us two go down to the beach and gather sweet-smelling flowers.
If there's a deeper meaning -- as there often is in Tongan poetry -- I am
not qualified to pronounce upon it. One could guess that the lines are an
invitation to sexual dalliance, but then again, it could be a biting
political critique and I wouldn't know it.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If Usenet had a coat of arms, the
motto on the banner would be "SO THERE". -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Dorothy recalls ...
>
>> ... a tale originally told, I think, by Mark Twain.
>> There was a farmer who had a horse and wagon. Once a year he
>> drove them on a trip to the county seat. It involved crossing a
>> stream, narrow but too deep to ford, by means of a bridge. One
>> year he came to the stream and discovered that the bridge had
>> been washed out. He said, "Mabel, jump!" Mabel hunched her
>> shoulders, took a mighty leap, and leapt over the stream wagon
>> and all.
>
>Twain also said, in FOLLOWING THE EQUATOR:
>
>"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that
>is in it蟻nd stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot
>stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again蟻nd that is
>well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore."
Considering Twain was pre-electric fence era....one contrary point of
this applies to the number of horses out there who have figured out
how to tell when an electric fence is on or off. Apparently, from
various observations, the horses in question have figured out they get
a *mild* buzz by touching a whisker to the fence in question.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
snip
>Nor do I know what it would mean to have the intelligence of a human
>six-year-old "only without the ability to abstract." The ability to
>abstract is, to a great extent, what human intelligence is. Saying an
>animal has the intelligence of a human child except for the ability to
>abstract is kind of like me saying that I'm as strong as Rumanian
>weightlifter, except for the ability to lift really heavy objects.
By Piaget's theories, a human six year old isn't really all that
capable of abstract thought, either.
jrw
Del Cotter
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> said:
>Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>ailurin? Looks like a synonym for feline, but the etymology eludes me.
>
>Could also be spelled ailurian or ailurine.
>
>From ailuros, Greek for cat. You might be familiar with the words
>"ailurophile" or "ailurophobe."
Taxonomically speaking, the great divide among the carnivores is between
the aeluroids and the arctoids: basically, cats and dogs. Dogs, bears
and ferrets are arctoids, while cats and mongooses are aeluroids.
Surprisingly, while you might think from their long muzzles that hyenas
are dog-relatives, they're actually cat-relatives instead.
Seals and sea lions make a third group, the pinnipeds.
--
Del Cotter
Thanks to the recent fake Microsoft virus, I am currently rejecting all email
sent to d...@branta.demon.co.uk. Please send your email to del2 instead.
Thomas Yan
> In article <m1ad7vn...@rcn.com>, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>ailurin? Looks like a synonym for feline, but the etymology eludes me.
>
> Could also be spelled ailurian or ailurine.
New to me, modulo my leaky memory. Thanks for enlightening me. Now
I'm going to be silly...
> From ailuros, Greek for cat. You might be familiar with the words
> "ailurophile" or "ailurophobe."
...Hm. I did see someone playing that role in "Kill Bill". Oh, wait.
That was, "I lure a *pedophile*." Sorry, my bad.
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
> Hillary recently showed me what sleep-running looks like. She was
>in the comfy chair, legs and muzzle twitching in her sleep, when she took
>off like a rocket across the room and into the wall. Her attempt to look
>dignified afterwards was less successful than the time she got the waterpot
>stuck on her head.
ObFilk: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/IMeantToDoThat.html
Dan, ad nauseam
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
>. . . .
>Case in point:
>not too long ago, on a bus-trip through New Jersey (my work has me
>travel quite frequently), I sat opposite a youngish woman and her
>(apparently) seven or eight-year-old daughter.
> The little girl had a map of the state in her hands, and
>excitedly pointed at & read aloud some city- and town-names apparently
>familiar to her: saying things like "Look, Mommy: Princeton! ... This
>map shows New Jersey!" ...
> ... to which remark the mother responded by clouting her on the
>left temple and saying loudly: "You silly kid - that map IS New Jersey!"
OK, I'd like to take a poll. Who thinks this incident constitutes
child abuse? :-(
Dan, ad nauseam
Kate Secor
Elisabeth Riba <l...@osmond-riba.org> wrote:
> Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
> > acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
>
> Given the subject of this thread, I misread the above sentence as saying
> "My cat has..."
Yay, that wasn't just me...
> And, having watch my cat having the crazies, running like a maniac down
> the (somewhat slippery) hardwood floors, I would agree that cats also have
> higher impressions of their own acceleration, top speed, braking and
> cornering.
My cats think they're in the Matrix, as they're forever trying to corner
by running up the walls and jumping to the wall next to it. The sad
thing is, sometimes it works, so we can't break them of the habit --
even when we put things (like large bookcases) in front of the walls.
Aiglet
Kate Gladstone
> ... a youngish woman and her
> >(apparently) seven or eight-year-old daughter.
> > The little girl had a map of the state in her hands, and
> >excitedly pointed at & read aloud some city- and town-names apparently
> >familiar to her: saying things like "Look, Mommy: Princeton! ... This
> >map shows New Jersey!" ...
> > ... to which remark the mother responded by clouting her on the
> >left temple and saying loudly: "You silly kid - that map IS New Jersey!"
Dan asks:
>
> OK, I'd like to take a poll. Who thinks this incident constitutes
> child abuse? :-(
>
Having seen the incident, I regard it as both physical and mental abuse
of the child. (What would happen to a child who actually listened to
this mother and assiduously taught herself to believe that a map equals
the territory it maps?)
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
Legally or morally? Morally, yes.
-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
Marilee J. Layman
Hitting her is abuse, not understanding symbolism is ignorant.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Handmade Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Thomas Yan
> My cats think they're in the Matrix, as they're forever trying to corner
> by running up the walls and jumping to the wall next to it. The sad
> thing is, sometimes it works, so we can't break them of the habit --
> even when we put things (like large bookcases) in front of the walls.
Wild tangent: I liked Sluggy Freelance's "Matrix" parody. I laughed
my ass off over dim-witted Kiki (a ferret) as the Oracle.
Alan Braggins
>Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
>> acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
>
>Given the subject of this thread, I misread the above sentence as saying
>"My cat has..."
No, my cat doesn't have the load carrying capacity either.
Kate Gladstone
> ... the mother ... clouting her on the
> >>left temple and saying loudly: "You silly kid - that map IS New Jersey!"
> >
> >OK, I'd like to take a poll. Who thinks this incident constitutes
> >child abuse? :-(
>
Marilee remarks:
> Hitting her is abuse, not understanding symbolism is ignorant.
I assume that the mother "understood symbolism" on some level, because
otherwise the mother
/1/ couldn't have talked - couldn't have read - couldn't have learned to
talk or to read
/2/ would have perceived no reason to get onto a bus to go to New Jersey
- after all, if "the map IS New Jersey," why not just stand on the map?
To me, restricting or penalizing another sentient life-form's capacity
to understand symbols constitutes abuse of that sentient life-form
(because it abuses/penalizes a very importan capacity of that life-form
- probably THE defining feature of sentience, or at least very closely
connected therewith.)
Simon Templar
news:2f1epv00qu1dralvs...@4ax.com...
_Teaching_ ignorance is definitely abuse.
There's way too much of naturally occuring ignorance without actually
manufacturing more.
W.
Dorothy J Heydt
<ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:46:07 +0000 (UTC), Elisabeth Riba
><l...@osmond-riba.org> wrote:
>
>>Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> My car has about the performance of a Porsche 959, only without the
>>> acceleration, top speed, braking, or cornering.
>>
>>Given the subject of this thread, I misread the above sentence as saying
>>"My cat has..."
>
>money.
*I* have a cat that costs me a lot of money. He was free gratis
for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
Timothy McDaniel
<ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
>Would a cat ever daydream about a world in which mice grew on low
>bushes?
Ooo, vegetable mice!
Genetically engineered from the vegetable lambs, of course.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address
Kip Williams
> In article <7820qvcjm2p36k7bv...@4ax.com>,
> <ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
>
>>Would a cat ever daydream about a world in which mice grew on low
>>bushes?
>
> Ooo, vegetable mice!
>
> Genetically engineered from the vegetable lambs, of course.
We call them Veg-a-mice.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"The politics of failure has failed! And I say we must move forward,
not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling,
twirling toward freedom!" --Kodos
Ross Smith
>
> *I* have a cat that costs me a lot of money. He was free gratis
> for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
> feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
> vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
And there, of course, you have the secret of the feline race's success
in a nutshell.
--
Ross Smith ......... r-s...@ihug.co.nz ......... Auckland, New Zealand
"The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world.
And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice."
-- George W. Bush
Celtic Ferret
"Kip Williams" <ki...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3FA09451...@cox.net...
> Timothy McDaniel wrote:
> > In article <7820qvcjm2p36k7bv...@4ax.com>,
> > <ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Would a cat ever daydream about a world in which mice grew on low
> >>bushes?
> >
> > Ooo, vegetable mice!
> >
> > Genetically engineered from the vegetable lambs, of course.
>
> We call them Veg-a-mice.
>
protien. Stick with real mice.
KG
Mark Atwood
> for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
> feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
> vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
You don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
kidney infections have cost me.
*I* don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
kidney infections have cost me.
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right,
m...@pobox.com | people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>> *I* have a cat that costs me a lot of money. He was free gratis
>> for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
>> feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
>> vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
>
>You don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
>
>*I* don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
Nope, that's probably even more than Sebastian's epilepsy and eye
infections have cost us, not even counting the visits to the
veterinary ophthalmologist at a hundred bucks plus a pop. (We
were just lucky the feline neurologist didn't decide he needed a
CAT scan; that would have been a thousand right there.)
Kip Williams
Well, there's always plan B, where you give the cat mice that have
had all their sugars replaced with low-calorie Nutria Sweet.
Celtic Ferret
> Celtic wrote:
> > "Kip Williams" <ki...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:3FA09451...@cox.net...
> >
> >>Timothy McDaniel wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <7820qvcjm2p36k7bv...@4ax.com>,
> >>> <ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Would a cat ever daydream about a world in which mice grew on low
> >>>>bushes?
> >>>
> >>>Ooo, vegetable mice!
> >>>
> >>>Genetically engineered from the vegetable lambs, of course.
> >>
> >>We call them Veg-a-mice.
> >>
> > Cats are carnivores and get better nutrition from real protien than
plant
> > protien. Stick with real mice.
>
> Well, there's always plan B, where you give the cat mice that have
> had all their sugars replaced with low-calorie Nutria Sweet.
>
food out that uses mice as the nutritional model in place of that currently
used in most ferret food. Though ferrets can eat high quality kitten food
too. I think the fat content of cat food is lower than that of ferret food
or kitten food.
KG
Marilee J. Layman
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>> *I* have a cat that costs me a lot of money. He was free gratis
>> for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
>> feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
>> vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
>
>You don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
>
>*I* don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
I suspect my $1000 to get the needle & thread out of Spirit pales in
comparison.
Nancy Lebovitz
>own place in the universe, to do such things as write poetry or imagine a
>completely different world than the one we live in. Would a cat ever
>daydream about a world in which mice grew on low bushes? Would it ever
>talk to other cats about that? But cats and other pets do look upon humans
>and love one but not the other; they are affectionate and playful. They
>definitely have thoughts, even if those thoughts are generally about
>concrete things and not allegorical. For this, at least, they deserve not
>to be treated like disposable things, and they deserve that if we take them
>into our homes, we consider it a contract of honor to care for them
>throughout their lives.
I've got a book somewhere which describes cats and what the author learned
from them, frex the importance of good grooming. It includes a description
of a cat making a major decision (possibly to trust people, but it's been
a while since I've read the book). In any case, I'm not sure where the
capacity for epiphany fits in the scale of intelligence, but it ought to
be there somewhere.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
Nancy Lebovitz
<ket...@checkmysig.com> wrote:
>
>We don't think it odd, but that doesn't mean we are happy when the cat
>breaks something.<G> I'm the one in the house who is clumsy and breaks
>things, and not the cats--they never seem to break anything. Theft,
>though, that's quite another matter; one of my cats loves to steal and play
>with anything small and loose. I've had to do things like write to a model
>kit company asking if I can "buy just the claw from the big toe of a
>Tyrannosaurus Rex model" because my cat stole it.
IIRC, _The Cat's House_ mentions a sort of putty which only releases
things if they're twisted off it. I thought the stuff was called ShockPruf,
but google doesn't turn up anything.
Nancy Lebovitz
I think you missed a pun there.
I can't see why someone isn't just making cat/ferret food out of mice--
mice are already raised commercially for the reptile trade.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>IIRC, _The Cat's House_ mentions a sort of putty which only releases
>things if they're twisted off it. I thought the stuff was called ShockPruf,
>but google doesn't turn up anything.
Try "museum wax." I don't have much bric-a-brac in my house, but
the few pieces I do have are held down to the furniture by museum
wax so the cats can't knock them over.
Nancy Lebovitz
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <W4xpb.184$uM3.2...@newshog.newsread.com>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote:
>>
>>IIRC, _The Cat's House_ mentions a sort of putty which only releases
>>things if they're twisted off it. I thought the stuff was called ShockPruf,
>>but google doesn't turn up anything.
>
>Try "museum wax." I don't have much bric-a-brac in my house, but
>the few pieces I do have are held down to the furniture by museum
>wax so the cats can't knock them over.
Thanks for the pointer. I've found a source at
http://www.safetystore.com/Quakehold.asp
Beth Friedman
<m3r80un...@khem.blackfedora.com>, wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>> *I* have a cat that costs me a lot of money. He was free gratis
>> for nothing to start with--my son found him as a two-week-old
>> feral orphan--but he has cost us several thousand bucks since in
>> vet bills. If he weren't so cute he would be dead.
>
>You don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
>
>*I* don't want to know what Smudge's stomach cancer and Birki's
>kidney infections have cost me.
I know precisely what the cat I scraped off the road several months
ago cost me and Patricia Wrede. I'd never seen him before, but he had
this look that wouldn't let me pass him by.
(He made a full recovery and is now living with friends -- and is very
sproingedy.)
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com