Re: names from birds & animals, and nature in general (was: Paging Mr. Pessimal...)

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article,
<1600136716359742490.68...@news.individual.net>,
al...@spamspam.co.uk "Alec Cawley" observed:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>I've met people named Peregrine and Galadriel, and my daughter had
>>a classmate named Diphtheria.
>
>Peregrine goes back several hundred years. I don't think of that as
>a funny name.

- though i can only think of one off-hand: the tv news
presenter-political correspondant; so it's not exactly
common these days. but nor are many of the other bird
(or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.

- it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.

- not having looked it up, i suspect fashions in naming
children after birds and animals go similarly in most
english-speaking countries: but i know they're different
in scandawegia, and probably in other language blocs.

- love, ppint.
[cross-posting for possible shared interest to rasffdom,
and in hopes of getting data more widespread in response]

[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"I personally am rather in favour of herbicide as a hobby."
tamar, on afp, 14/6/98 (6/14/98 for merkins)

[GaryN]

> <1600136716359742490.68...@news.individual.net>,
> al...@spamspam.co.uk "Alec Cawley" observed:
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>I've met people named Peregrine and Galadriel, and my daughter had
>>>a classmate named Diphtheria.
>>
>>Peregrine goes back several hundred years. I don't think of that as
>>a funny name.

<snip> [drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]

Look on the bright side - my sister got labelled Sarah Jane. And her
married, first marriage, surname was Smith[1]. Just as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sarah_Jane_Adventures

turned up

You can imagine the rib tickling "So where's the Doctor" and "Are the
Daleks coming too" jokes that she had to put up with at parties when that
came out.

gary

[1]Don't know what surname she's currently using, I don't ask and she don't
tell. My family tend to change surnames as suits us.

--
"Man with a crossbow in the proper place at the proper time
is worth a corps of heavy artillery half an hour late
and ten miles down the road from where it should be"

Gordon R. Dickson in "Tactics of Mistake"

[Jette Goldie]

On 27/05/2012 07:59, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> - hi; in article,
> <1600136716359742490.68...@news.individual.net>,
> al...@spamspam.co.uk "Alec Cawley" observed:
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans<l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>> I've met people named Peregrine and Galadriel, and my daughter had
>>> a classmate named Diphtheria.
>>
>> Peregrine goes back several hundred years. I don't think of that as
>> a funny name.
>
> - though i can only think of one off-hand: the tv news
> presenter-political correspondant; so it's not exactly
> common these days. but nor are many of the other bird
> (or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
> robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
> probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
> i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
> bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.

there is more than one derivation for Colin

>
> - it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
> apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.
>

Heather is quite common here in Scotland. You are aware that heather is
a plant?



--
Jette Goldie
jgold...@btinternet.com

Living in the Future!

[GaryN]

Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote in news:jpt59f$8fe$1@dont-
email.me:

<snip>

> Heather is quite common here in Scotland. You are aware that heather is
> a plant?

Yeah, had to wade through quite a bit of it after the water in Elgin.

Also known as 'Furze' and "A bloody nuisance"

Feel free to try walking through the shit carrying a heavy server unit when
you've just carried it through 3 feet of water. Save me the hassle.

IIRC you hide Grouse and Ptarmigan and Capercaille in it up there..:-)[1]

gary

[1]Oddly, shotguns are not issued for disaster recovery jobs. Not even if
you're going to Jockland.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <XnsA060702282B9E...@216.196.109.145>,

GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>
>Look on the bright side - my sister got labelled Sarah Jane. And her
>married, first marriage, surname was Smith[1].

That's an argument for keeping one's maiden name, if ever I saw
one.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jpt59f$8fe$1...@dont-email.me>,

I am. Also, "Heather" was so common as a girl's name for a while in
the US that there's a story -- by Stephen King maybe? -- about a
high-school girl persecuted by a clique of "popular" girls, all
named Heather.

_____
*Pre-teen girl to her father, "Oh, her. She's one of the
'popular' girls, you know, the one everybody hates."

[Jette Goldie]

The name never goes out of fashion here in Scotland, but I wasn't sure
if they were aware it was a plant/flower, when I bought something
described as "heather" colour - and discovered that the colour "heather"
seems to be a light grey. (around here the colour description "heather"
would imply some shade of pink, anything from light pink to deep mauve)

[Cryptoengineer]

On May 27, 8:45 am, GaryN <webmas...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
> Jette Goldie <jgoldie...@btinternet.com> wrote innews:jpt59f$8fe$1@dont-

> email.me:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Heather is quite common here in Scotland.  You are aware that heather is
> > a plant?
>
> Yeah, had to wade through quite a bit of it after the water in Elgin.
>
> Also known as 'Furze' and "A bloody nuisance"

Um, no.

Furze (aka gorse) and heather are quite different plants, though they
grow in the same general areas.

Heather is thornless, with pretty purple flowers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calluna_vulgaris
A moor covered with flowering heather is a beautiful sight.

Gorse/Furze is what you're bitching about, and indeed quite nasty to
deal with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorse

pt

[Paul Dormer]

In article <M4opw...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>
> I am. Also, "Heather" was so common as a girl's name for a while in
> the US that there's a story -- by Stephen King maybe? -- about a
> high-school girl persecuted by a clique of "popular" girls, all
> named Heather.

There's a film called Heathers which I've never seen, but sounds a bit
like what you describe. Written by Daniel Walters, according to the IMDb,
and not based on anything else, as far as I can see.

[GaryN]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:M4opr...@kithrup.com:

> In article <XnsA060702282B9E...@216.196.109.145>,
> GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Look on the bright side - my sister got labelled Sarah Jane. And her
>>married, first marriage, surname was Smith[1].
>
> That's an argument for keeping one's maiden name, if ever I saw
> one.
>

As I say don't know which surname she uses now. Whatever is convenient,
same as my mother, I suspect. Given up keeping track. Both of them are
technically allowed to use any of 3 or 4. I actually stick with my
original despite being able to use 3 others (legally). I just remember the
addresses to post stuff to.

gary

[GaryN]

Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7799dae7-9985-4fbc...@r3g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

Not exactly bitching about, just made bloody hard work even bloody
harder. Got nothing against it in general and mostly it looks pretty,
but at that particular place, time, and situation, operations would have
been easier without it.

Such is life.

gary

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <memo.2012052...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk>,

Maybe that's what I was thinking of. You understand, I don't
*read* Mr. King.

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <M4opw...@kithrup.com>,
lo! djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" botanised:

> Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> ppint. at pplay wrote:
>>> - though i can only think of one off-hand: the tv news
>>> presenter-political correspondant; so it's not exactly
>>> common these days. but nor are many of the other bird
>>> (or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
>>> robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
>>> probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
>>> i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
>>> bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.

>>> - it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
>>> apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.
>>
>>Heather is quite common here in Scotland. You are aware that heather is
>>a plant?
>
>I am. Also, "Heather" was so common as a girl's name for a while
>in the US that there's a story -- by Stephen King maybe? -- about
>a high-school girl persecuted by a clique of "popular" girls, all
>named Heather.

- :-)

- it's two and a half decades since i knew _anyone_ of that
name; but scotland does have the reputation of being a bit
behind in fashions - as does the north of england (usually),
though perhaps to a lesser extent. england had a tradition
of names drawn from nature - indeed, two traditions of this -
but i don't believe the normans can have had, by the time of
the conquest; leastways, not for male christian names. nick-
names are a whole other world, and some were bestowed for a
man's keynote characteristic an animal was believed to embody.

- from the late sixties and early-mid seventies, there was a
fashion for herby and flowery girls' names, some of them quite
decidedly on the dippy edge of hippy; but not all older herby
names regained their former popularity: myrtle, for example.

- how much the fall in "natural" names' popularity was a re-
flection of the rising proportion of people's separation from
life on the farm and in small villages, i do not know - nor
whether anyone's published studies on the particular phenomenon.

- love, ppint.

[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--

"There's something wrong with the world. I'm becoming a hazy memory."
- C.Speed, the ultimate velocipractor, on alt.sex.reptiles 11/2/98

[David V. Loewe, Jr]

Holly?
--
"...you know, it seems to me you suffer from the problem of
wanting a tailored fit in an off the rack world."
Dennis Juds

[Jette Goldie]

That tree is common in Scotland, but the name isn't. :-)

[Lizzy Taylor]

On 28/05/2012 04:04, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:

Basil.

Lizzy

[Paul Dormer]

In article <M4pMs...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>
> >

> >There's a film called Heathers which I've never seen, but sounds a bit
> >like what you describe. Written by Daniel Walters, according to the
> >IMDb, and not based on anything else, as far as I can see.
>
> Maybe that's what I was thinking of. You understand, I don't
> *read* Mr. King.

I've read a few stories in F&SF, but they didn't appeal to me. But I was
amused by the ad he did for ESPN SportsCenter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-iXJ0E_WDE

[Andy Leighton]

Poppy? Jasmine? Laura / Lauren?

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[Larry Moore]

Olive

--
Quand les hommes ne peuvent changer les choses,
ils changent les mots.
Jean Jaure's

[GaryN]

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0JydnUAB_I5h-17S...@wightman.ca:

<snip>

> Olive

Rowan, which is odd because I'm currently making a rowan walking stick for
someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!). Had to take a
break from working on my own Gandalf/Ridcully style staff[1] in order to
get it done for her in time for when she's back on her feet (or foot as the
case may be). They take time to get right.

gary

[1]6'6" of beutifully twisted bog oak[2]. Going to take months. Probably
get arrested when I take it out for a trial run!
[2]Derived from Lincolnshire, waiting for a delivery of "Interesting",
whatever that means, holly at present.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <4fc3366a$0$7324$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
Lizzy Taylor <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>
>Basil.

But that's the other way around. The proper name comes from
_basileus_, Greek for "king", and the plant name from _to
basilikon_, "the royal herb."

(Kingsfoil, in other words......)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <XnsA0619373DD3C4...@216.196.109.145>,

GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:

>Rowan, which is odd because I'm currently making a rowan walking stick for
>someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!). Had to take a
>break from working on my own Gandalf/Ridcully style staff[1] in order to
>get it done for her in time for when she's back on her feet (or foot as the
>case may be). They take time to get right.

I have a staff made of Alaskan diamond willow. I'm told you can
buy them in the airport gift shops for several hundred bucks and
they're about three feet high. Mine is just under five feet, and
I got it for a song.

Well, a poem, actually. I wrote a poem for a gentleman in
Oertha, the Alaskan branch of the SCA, and he sent the staff back
by return messenger. Details, and text, upon request.

[Jay E. Morris]

A computer.

[Bernard Peek]

On 28/05/12 15:24, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<XnsA0619373DD3C4...@216.196.109.145>,
> GaryN<webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Rowan, which is odd because I'm currently making a rowan walking stick for
>> someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!). Had to take a
>> break from working on my own Gandalf/Ridcully style staff[1] in order to
>> get it done for her in time for when she's back on her feet (or foot as the
>> case may be). They take time to get right.
>
> I have a staff made of Alaskan diamond willow. I'm told you can
> buy them in the airport gift shops for several hundred bucks and
> they're about three feet high. Mine is just under five feet, and
> I got it for a song.
>
> Well, a poem, actually. I wrote a poem for a gentleman in
> Oertha, the Alaskan branch of the SCA, and he sent the staff back
> by return messenger. Details, and text, upon request.
>

Hi Dorothy. Hope everyone over in rassef are well.

Nobody in this thread has mentioned Rosemary yet.


--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

[steveski]

Bayleaf the gardener? [1]

--
Steveski

[1] Probably for Brits only.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <XnsA0619373DD3C4...@216.196.109.145>,

webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk (GaryN) wrote:

> someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!).

The other famous Rowan is Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[David Friedman]

> >>>> Peregrine goes back several hundred years. I don't think of that as
> >>>> a funny name.
> >>>
> >>> - though i can only think of one off-hand: the tv news
> >>> presenter-political correspondant; so it's not exactly
> >>> common these days. but nor are many of the other bird
> >>> (or animal) names that used to be used in english;

I just noticed this--hence the multiple layers of quotes.

"Peregrine" doesn't originally mean a kind of falcon, it means a
pilgrim, from a Latin word for foreigner. It's possible that its use as
a name derives from the bird, but I wouldn't assume it does.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_

[David Friedman]

In article <4fc3366a$0$7324$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
Lizzy Taylor <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:

> >> Heather is quite common here in Scotland. You are aware that heather is
> >> a plant?
> >
> > Holly?
>
> Basil.

As in the case of "peregrine," it isn't clear that the name derives from
the source that the discussion assumes. I believe "Basil" comes from a
Greek term for royal ("Basilikon"), and is applied to the herb because
it is the king herb.

[Nigel Stapley]

We promised *never* to mention Rosemary again. Not after what she said
about Mam at our Doreen's wedding.

--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>

[GaryN]

p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote in
news:memo.2012052...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk:

It's not for him either, never liked that one. It's for my mothers horse
and carriage driving groom. I was already working on the stick so call it
serendipity that someone called Rowan needs a walking stick just as I
happen to be working on one made of rowan. Although obviously she won't
be able to backstep for a while. Or, indeed, do much else to help out.

Obviously not serendipitous for her[1], I'm sure she'd rather not need a
stick at all but if you do then a hand made personal one is more fun than a
faceless, bland NHS one.

On a brighter note the SO has her first job interview for 18 months on
Thursday.

gary

[1] Read 'Bloody annoyingly infuriating'

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <XnsA061CE31864D6...@216.196.109.145>,

GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote in
>news:memo.2012052...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk:
>
>> In article <XnsA0619373DD3C4...@216.196.109.145>,
>> webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk (GaryN) wrote:
>>
>>> someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!).
>>
>> The other famous Rowan is Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.
>
>It's not for him either, never liked that one. It's for my mothers horse
>and carriage driving groom. I was already working on the stick so call it
>serendipity that someone called Rowan needs a walking stick just as I
>happen to be working on one made of rowan. Although obviously she won't
>be able to backstep for a while. Or, indeed, do much else to help out.
>
>Obviously not serendipitous for her[1], I'm sure she'd rather not need a
>stick at all but if you do then a hand made personal one is more fun than a
>faceless, bland NHS one.
>
>On a brighter note the SO has her first job interview for 18 months on
>Thursday.

Good luck to her!

[Paul Jamison]

"GaryN" <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote in message
news:XnsA061CE31864D6...@216.196.109.145...

[snip]

>
> On a brighter note the SO has her first job interview for 18 months on
> Thursday.
>
> gary
>

Best for your SO.

Paul

[GaryN]

"Paul Jamison" <pjam...@cox.net> wrote in
news:jq0niv$b0e$1...@dont-email.me:

Thanks to all for the good wishes, she's not ever been on afp but she's
heard me talk about it. It'll mean a lot that there are people who give
the slightest smidgin of a shit about her interview (me excluded of
course 'cos she knows I care). I know she can do the job but it's been
18 months. After that length of time every bit of additional boost to
confidence helps.

Hope none of you will mind if I tell her.

gary

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <20120527.065...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> common these days. but nor are many of the other bird

> (or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
> robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
> probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
> i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
> bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.
>

> - it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
> apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.
>

> - not having looked it up, i suspect fashions in naming
> children after birds and animals go similarly in most
> english-speaking countries

"Robin" was simply the diminutive "Rob" plus the diminutive suffix
"-in". Diminutive suffixen were once much more used and productive in
English, like "-en", "-kin", "-le". Wikipedia says that the bird was
named from people, not vice versa.

Wikipedia also says that, in English, "Colin" is a similar double
diminutive, in this case from "Nicolas". It looks plausible, but I
don't have Withycombe handy to check.

Wikipedia says "Mavis" is a modern construction, taken from an
obsolete bird name. Thanks for the pointer: I Did Not Know It.

Girls getting herb names was a Victorian fashion. The original flower
name was Rose, but it wasn't derived from the flower, but from "hros",
'horse' (in Old High German, it appears). Personal names like "Lily",
"Violet", and such generally came in much much later in English.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <20120528.020...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> but scotland does have the reputation of being a bit
> behind in fashions

The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

> england had a tradition of names drawn from nature - indeed, two
> traditions of this - but i don't believe the normans can have had,
> by the time of the conquest; leastways, not for male christian
> names.

I'd be interesting in knowing what you mean by this, and probably
Brian Scott too, but maybe not others.

> - how much the fall in "natural" names' popularity was a reflection

> of the rising proportion of people's separation from life on the
> farm and in small villages, i do not know

Given that I am given to understand that flower names and herb names
didn't become generally popular until the 1800s in England (or so I
remember the introduction to Withycombe), I have doubts about the
thesis.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jq2qlt$859$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <20120528.020...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,
>ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> but scotland does have the reputation of being a bit
>> behind in fashions
>
>The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
>next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

Heh. You know the story about C. S. Lewis, who was one day seen
crossing the quad with a smile on his face? A friend, meeting
him, said, "Well, Jack, what's the smile about?" and Lewis
answered, "I think I have just proven that in England, the
Renaissance never happened. Alternatively," he went on before
his friend would reply, "ALTERNATIVELY, that if it did it didn't
make any difference."

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jq2qlt$859$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:

> The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
> next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

That's fine, the Universe is not scheduled to be created until
Thursday.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[T Guy]

On May 27, 3:07 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> I am.  Also, "Heather" was so common as a girl's name for a while in
> the US that there's a story -- by Stephen King maybe? -- about a
> high-school girl persecuted by a clique of "popular" girls, all
> named Heather.

Oho! That'll be the source of the famous film _Heathers_, then.

_____
> *Pre-teen girl to her father, "Oh, her.  She's one of the
> 'popular' girls, you know, the one everybody hates."

[T Guy]

On May 28, 9:25 am, Lizzy Taylor <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:
> On 28/05/2012 04:04, David V. Loewe, Jr wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 27 May 2012, Jette Goldie<jgoldie...@btinternet.com>  wrote:
>
> >> On 27/05/2012 07:59, ppint. at pplay wrote:

> >>>    a...@spamspam.co.uk "Alec Cawley" observed:

> >>>>        Lawrence Watt-Evans<l...@sff.net>   wrote:
>
> >>>>> I've met people named Peregrine and Galadriel, and my daughter had
> >>>>> a classmate named Diphtheria.
>
> >>>> Peregrine goes back several hundred years. I don't think of that as
> >>>> a funny name.
>
> >>>    - though i can only think of one off-hand: the tv news
> >>>    presenter-political correspondant; so it's not exactly
> >>>    common these days.  but nor are many of the other bird
> >>>    (or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
> >>>    robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
> >>>    probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
> >>>    i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
> >>>    bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.
>
> >> there is more than one derivation for Colin
>
> >>>    - it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
> >>>    apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.
>
> >> Heather is quite common here in Scotland.  You are aware that heather is
> >> a plant?
>
> > Holly?
>
> Basil.

Not a herb-based name.

Though I suppose that the herb might be regarded as the king of herbs.
Or I have misattributed the name's origin?

Back from a quick check on Wiki, for what that's worth: the herb is
named after the word, and Vassily is a variant of Basil (obvious once
it's pointed out).

[T Guy]

On May 28, 3:19 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <4fc3366a$0$7324$5b6aa...@news.zen.co.uk>,

> Lizzy Taylor  <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Basil.
>
> But that's the other way around.  The proper name comes from
> _basileus_, Greek for "king", and the plant name from _to
> basilikon_, "the royal herb."
>
> (Kingsfoil, in other words......)

Sorry, Miss.

I feel I ought to write 'I must read the entire thread before
replying' a hundred times and deliver it to you by break tomorrow.

[Lizzy Taylor]

On 30/05/2012 13:35, T Guy wrote:

>> Basil.
>
> Not a herb-based name.
>
> Though I suppose that the herb might be regarded as the king of herbs.
> Or I have misattributed the name's origin?
>
> Back from a quick check on Wiki, for what that's worth: the herb is
> named after the word, and Vassily is a variant of Basil (obvious once
> it's pointed out).

OK, it was a name based plant, however it was still in the spirit of the
thread.

One of my mother's cousins is called Iris and an old college friend is
called Olive. There were also her late aunts Violet & Lily.

Lizzy

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <M4qL5...@kithrup.com>,
djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" reminded:

> Lizzy Taylor <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Basil.
>
>But that's the other way around. The proper name comes from
>_basileus_, Greek for "king", and the plant name from _to
>basilikon_, "the royal herb." (Kingsfoil, in other words......)

- but is basil anywhere reputed to have like qualities
"in the hands of the king" ?

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"if you marry your mistress, you create a job vacancy"
- james goldsmith

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <20120529.180...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> - hi; in article, <M4qL5...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" reminded:
>> Lizzy Taylor <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>Basil.
>>
>>But that's the other way around. The proper name comes from
>>_basileus_, Greek for "king", and the plant name from _to
>>basilikon_, "the royal herb." (Kingsfoil, in other words......)
>
> - but is basil anywhere reputed to have like qualities
> "in the hands of the king" ?

Not to my knowledge. But remember that Tolkien was a
philologist. HE knew that that nice herb that goes so well with
tomatoes had a name that meant "kingly," and took it from there.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>> The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in
>> Scotland next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

> That's fine, the Universe is not scheduled to be created until
> Thursday.

Good. I'm tired of all this prochronic time. :-)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
> next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

What do you mean by Renaissance? Scotland was in the lead in steam
technology through much of the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe they
skipped over the Renaissance and went right to the industrial age.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk (GaryN) wrote:
>> someone called Rowan (No, not Atkinson before anyone asks!).

> The other famous Rowan is Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of
> Canterbury.

ObFandom: Anne Marie Quinn has a daughter named Rowan.

But my first association with the word is the old TV show,
Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In.

[David Friedman]

In article <jq6kmv$pna$5...@reader1.panix.com>,

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> > The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
> > next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).
>
> What do you mean by Renaissance? Scotland was in the lead in steam
> technology through much of the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe they
> skipped over the Renaissance and went right to the industrial age.

Right to the enlightenment--think David Hume and Adam Smith. Shortly
followed by the industrial age.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jq6kaf$pna$3...@reader1.panix.com>,

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> > tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
> >> The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in
> >> Scotland next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).
>
> > That's fine, the Universe is not scheduled to be created until
> > Thursday.
>
> Good. I'm tired of all this prochronic time. :-)

I would be, if any of the past were real. Memories, memories anything
I have of yesterday are memories.

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <jq2qlt$859$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
tm...@panix.com "Tim McDaniel" enquired:

> ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>but scotland does have the reputation of being a bit behind in fashions
>
>The Renaissance started in Italy in the 1300s-1400s, and in Scotland
>next Wednesday (unless it's been rescheduled *again*).

- ah me, whatever became of the athens of the north ?

>
>> england had a tradition of names drawn from nature - indeed, two
>> traditions of this - but i don't believe the normans can have had,
>> by the time of the conquest; leastways, not for male christian names.
>
>I'd be interesting in knowing what you mean by this, and probably
>Brian Scott too, but maybe not others.

- i understand the anglo-saxons drew upon nature (inter alia)
for names, as did the by then anglo-danes above watling street;
but i don't recall reading of any such names amongst william's
invading army, nor amongst supporters he granted manors and the
right (and duty) to build castles to control the conquered realm.
this could be lack of knowledge on my part, and it could reflect
a difference in cultural habit amongst the invaders along class
divisions; but i don't believe the normans were (yet) so divided:
they were a pretty small minority in a land many times the size
of normandy, and so liable to be culturally pretty uniform.

- i don't know what their traditions would have been before they
settled (what was to become) the danelaw, but the great majority
of anglo-danes were farmers; likewise, i do not know those of
the norwegians who settled in these parts (north-wet england);
but they too reverted to farming the land, rather than replaced
the anglo-saxon and anglo-danish nobility, leaving a conquered
alien population doing the actual farming, and sometimes (often?)
overseeing it as stewards, too, as did the normans.

>
>> - how much the fall in "natural" names' popularity was a reflection
>> of the rising proportion of people's separation from life on the
>> farm and in small villages, i do not know
>
>Given that I am given to understand that flower names and herb names
>didn't become generally popular until the 1800s in England (or so I
>remember the introduction to Withycombe), I have doubts about the thesis.

- when did the urban population of england become self-re-
placing? not until well after the start of the industrial
revolution, i suspect; and until then, it was maintained by
(often forced, if not *enforced*) migration from the country-
side, with appropriate cultural traditions.

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--

"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox -
the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable."
_A Woman of No Importance_ - oscar wilde, 1893

[Paul Dormer]

In article <20120531.130...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk ("ppint. at pplay") wrote:

>
> - ah me, whatever became of the athens of the north ?
> >

There's a bit in Jumpers by Tom Stoppard about Edinburgh being not so
much the Athens of the north as the Reykjavik of the south.

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <20120531.130...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> - i understand the anglo-saxons drew upon nature (inter alia) for
> names, as did the by then anglo-danes above watling street;

I forwarded the note to an onomasochist, er, onomastician. Her
comment, about verbatim, was "Put down the crack pipe before posting".

There is no such pattern of "nature names" (indeed, I'm still not 100%
sure what you mean). The stereotypical Anglo-Saxon name was, like
other Germanic languages, a dithematic name: first half chosen from
column A, second half chosen from column B. Usually one of the halves
was the same as the corresponding half of the father's name. (Some
names were monothematic.) Meaning was pretty much ignored: I believe
I heard that there are attested names that meant "peace peace"
(Fridhfridh, I suppose) and "war peace". Wikipedia defines Hedwig as
"battle fight".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_name doesn't look implausible.
Some of the sources cited are good, some are not so good. Sure you
have hart, boar, bear, eagle, but you know, Indo-European -- I know
Bjorn (bear) was Scandinavian too . You can see meanings there.

> but i don't recall reading of any such names amongst william's
> invading army

The army descended from people who, 150 years before, came from
Scandinavia, which you say were the source of "nature names"?

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[Keith F. Lynch]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> That's fine, the Universe is not scheduled to be created until
>>> Thursday.

>> Good. I'm tired of all this prochronic time. :-)

> I would be, if any of the past were real. Memories, memories
> anything I have of yesterday are memories.

If I'm ever again accused of a crime, I'll try using that as a
defense. "My alibi is that on the date of the crime I didn't exist,
the victim didn't exist, the crime scene didn't exist, and the law in
question didn't exist. Neither did anything else."

[steveski]

Keith F. Lynch wrote:

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> That's fine, the Universe is not scheduled to be created until
>>>> Thursday.
>
>>> Good. I'm tired of all this prochronic time. :-)
>
>> I would be, if any of the past were real. Memories, memories
>> anything I have of yesterday are memories.
>
> If I'm ever again accused of a crime, I'll try using that as a
> defense. "My alibi is that on the date of the crime I didn't exist,
> the victim didn't exist, the crime scene didn't exist, and the law in
> question didn't exist. Neither did anything else."

Are you Wen the Eternal? [1]

"For is it not written {insert Mrs. Cosmopilite aphorism/cliche as
applicable}?"

--
Steveski

[Pratchett ref. for cross-posting purposes.

[Keith F. Lynch]

steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote:

> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> If I'm ever again accused of a crime, I'll try using that as a
>> defense. "My alibi is that on the date of the crime I didn't
>> exist, the victim didn't exist, the crime scene didn't exist, and
>> the law in question didn't exist. Neither did anything else."

> Are you Wen the Eternal? [1]

Not at the moment. But I *am* immortal, at least so far.

[GaryN]

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in news:jqgnfh$8m2$4
@reader1.panix.com:

> steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> If I'm ever again accused of a crime, I'll try using that as a
>>> defense. "My alibi is that on the date of the crime I didn't
>>> exist, the victim didn't exist, the crime scene didn't exist, and
>>> the law in question didn't exist. Neither did anything else."
>
>> Are you Wen the Eternal? [1]
>
> Not at the moment. But I *am* immortal, at least so far.

Like this?

http://www.andy-sparrow.co.uk/shop/product/107b/index.html

I think he may have copyright on it. Bloody good, high quality t-shirts
though.

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <jq2qbg$859$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
tm...@panix.com "Tim McDaniel" objected:

> ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> common these days. but nor are many of the other bird
>> (or animal) names that used to be used in english; even
>> robin's a lot less common, as is colin, which few people
>> probably remember has an animal connection at all, now.
>> i don't know whether many people still know mavis is a
>> bird, but that name has also fallen far out of fashion.
>>
>> - it's a while since i met anyone with a herb name too,
>> apart from rosemary - or a flower name, other than rose.
>>
>> - not having looked it up, i suspect fashions in naming
>> children after birds and animals go similarly in most
>> english-speaking countries

[]

>Wikipedia says "Mavis" is a modern construction, taken from an
>obsolete bird name. Thanks for the pointer: I Did Not Know It.

- you're welcome; but i am surprised you didn't find the
derivation meaning "young dog" as an option for "colin".

>
>Girls getting herb names was a Victorian fashion. The original flower
>name was Rose, but it wasn't derived from the flower, but from "hros",
>'horse' (in Old High German, it appears).

- i read it given as a derivation for german only: the latin
"rosa" is that given for dutch, english, german (again) and
swedish; this from greek "rhodan", "wrodan" in aolic greek,
all ultimately from the persian "urda-" with aramaic "warda"
being from old persian.
the PIE "wrdho" is given as meaning "thorn", "bramble" -
but no indication is given how many primitive indo-europeans
were consulted.

- fwiw the modern persian is "gul" (turkish, "g[u-umlaut]l"),
"via the usual transformations" (or words to that effect) -
i don't know what these would be.

- love, a ppint. who thinks the a bove makes sense given the
likely origin and spread of the rose in europe

[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--

"The people all paint themselves red, and eat monkeys,
whereof there is an inexhaustible supply in the hills."
- Histories, Book Four - Herodotus

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <20120611.164...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> tm...@panix.com "Tim McDaniel" objected:

>>Girls getting herb names was a Victorian fashion. The original
>>flower name was Rose, but it wasn't derived from the flower, but
>>from "hros", 'horse' (in Old High German, it appears).
>
> - i read it given as a derivation for german only:

I don't have Withycombe to hand, but I believe that Old English
inherited it from German and it continued from there. That's not to
say that Romance-language names didn't make it into the name stock and
might have influenced name choice, and sometimes "this name came from"
gets fuzzy, but I am told that "Rose" as a personal name is basically
from "hros".

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[Seth]

In article <jqdf67$ctr$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>If I'm ever again accused of a crime, I'll try using that as a
>defense. "My alibi is that on the date of the crime I didn't exist,
>the victim didn't exist, the crime scene didn't exist, and the law in
>question didn't exist. Neither did anything else."

Just make sure you have FSM believers on the jury.

Seth

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jro453$3qe$2...@reader1.panix.com>, se...@panix.com (Seth)
wrote:

"And if anything did exist I need to do it to maintain my membership
in the pirates union."