Beware of Slanted Fedora Cons!
ERIC KATZ
audiobooks and printouts of web pages with pictures of the advertised
stars]. I rarely buy merchandise at the conventions because it's usually
also available online. Therefore, on a combination of both Saturday and
Sunday, I got autographs from all of the advertised guests! I even got an
extra ticket for my friend on Sunday because he'd lost his card. Next time,
instead of being greedy, I'll get a cheaper ticket for him and use my card
to get autographs for him, rather than get extra autographs for myself. I'd
prefer the star interviews, rather than their autographs, anyway.
Fortunately, since I was there on both days, I got both.
I've been emailing Dave Scott our newsgroup posts regarding the convention.
Please pardon me if you feel spammed! Personally, There should have been
autographs during the dinner and on Friday. I also believe that he made some
mistakes by charging some fans more than others several weeks before the
convention and insisting for us to stay in the auditorium, rather than get
autographs, during his auction. I'm somewhat disappointed in him, but
understanding due to what he couldn't control. If you're still mad at him,
email him at SFed...@aol.com. Here are his reply and apology:
"As always, interesting responses...
First off, for those not there...we hosted a convention in Philly last
weekend and it was fabulous! the stars (13 in all) were truly terrific, all
in a great mood, and all very entertaining...But...For the first time, after
hosting 54 conventions on my own, and 14 as a partner with someone else, I
had to cut an autograph line short. In the 66 conventions, we have had more
than 90,000 people receive everything they were promised...and more.
Unfortunately, we had 200 dissatisfied people at this one...200 out of 1,200
people who attended for the weekend (some bought weekend, some Saturday only
and some Sunday only, we had 1,200 individuals) 1 out of 6 (very bad
numbers, but not 1 out of 3).
I am sorry for the individual that thought I was a jerk for claiming
responsibility and not try to do a song and dance. It was my fault in
total. Things beyond my control happened, promises were made to actors,
planes were late and the republicans were in town.
All right, here goes. First, be clear everything that went wrong was my
fault. Everything. I will explain, but I am not asking to be excused.my
fault. First, I made promises to the actors.Roxann adopted a new baby (BTW,
I do wish someone would have posted something nice about her new baby. She
is very excited, and had many stories.as every proud mother would.But, I
guess I ruined the weekend for folks since some didn't get their
autographs). She asked if she could be booked on the last possible flight
so that she would be able to spend as much time with the baby as possible
(new babies should be put to bed by their mom). With the schedule we booked
her on, she would be able to put the baby to bed, and do the first
feeding.she was grateful. I honored my promise, and allowed for the last
flight.
Robbie had a chance to sing the national anthem for the Phillies game! He
was really excited, and asked to be able to leave just a little early so
that he could be driven to the game. I honored my promise and allowed him
this once in a lifetime opportunity to sing for 30,000 people plus!
Bob Picardo is a hometown boy. He asked to be let out a little early so he
could be with his brother and family for dinner before his performance at
our "dinner with the Stars". He made plans ahead of time, and I honored my
promise and allowed him to go.
We lost an hour due to the bomb scare. Now, those who chose to fret because
they might not get their autographs had a miserable time, many cursed the
gods and many attempted to get answers from me that I was not able to give.
The Philly PD were in charge, and in theory could have kept us out all day.
I am sorry, I was not able to predict when we would be allowed in the
building. BUT, those who saw an opportunity had a great time.Robbie posed
for photos with all that asked. He was kissing babies and being the
ultimate sport. Armin was doing a little Shakespeare at one point and my
new stunt team from Hollywood performed for the fans in the grass. Those
folks had a great time. The people who followed me and asked me numerous
times when we would be starting the autograph lines had a miserable time,
and I am sure it was my fault that I was not able to track down an immediate
answer to their concerns.
Roxann's plane was late.one hour.but, my fault I didn't insist that she take
a flight out the day before.
Robbie indeed had to leave early, and Bob's family came on time. My fault,
I not only let them leave, I shook their hands and wished Robbie my best for
his big night. Bob's family were very nice, and I was pleased that on the
way out Bob stopped and introduced me to his family. I made them and him
happy. But, my choice, my responsibility and I kept my promise. By the
way, before they left, they did sign for all the folks who needed to have
their items signed as they were leaving. Everyone Saturday only was
satisfied.
And hey.let's not forget.Claudia Christian, Mary Kay Adams, Rene
Auberjonois, Armin Shimerman, Lolita Fatjo, James Horran, Jack Donner,
France Nuyen, Celeste Yarnell, Leslie Hoffman and Brian Williams all
performed (as did the fab four of Voyager.some people put a value in seeing
the stars perform). They also signed autographs for more than 2 hours
each.sorry for the 4, but look for the silver amongst the other 11. But, I
guess there is no value in them.
And hey.let's not forget the dinner. We sold an amazing number of tickets,
and the stars responded! Claudia posed for photos with everyone, France,
Jack and Celeste were treated as royalty, and James Horran rocked the crowd!
All this before either stars of the show.and what a show they did. But, no
autographs, no value, but those that went had an amazing night! Can I say
it and have you believe me.lot's of planning and effort on my part.My fault!
And speaking of my fault, I forgot the Friday show.lots of activities, but
the highlight was the FREE theater Armin and Rene performed in. I wonder
how many of the people who were cheated out of what was promised attended
the FREE Friday theater. Armin and Rene have performed this show for us
three times before.they were perfect this time. Absolutely marvelous. But,
no autographs on Friday, so I doubt that those folks attended.
OK.now to the Saturday.I F****d up. Sorry, I wish I could say something
else, but I messed up royally. I wish I could control time and space, but I
can't. I wish I had it all to do over again, but I don't. My fault, my
problem, my responsibility. Once again, I allowed the stars to take
personal time. Bob always attends mass whenever he attends a convention.
This time he took Roxann with him. Lunches were planned, and exceptions
were made. I thought we could make it up, I tried to get people to
cooperate, and I wasn't able to control the situation. My fault, good
suggestions from everyone, and I learned a lot, but bottom line, the stars
had to leave before the obligations to the fans were met.
So, I had a couple of choices. One.I could blame the bomb scare and tell
people you roll the dice and we all got stuck. I did approach the hotel
about a reduction in the rate since we lost the use of the room. I was
politely but firmly informed that this situation was beyond the reasonable
responsibility of the hotel. This is considered an act of god, and no
refund or reduction would be considered. I did not give the same speech, I
chose to suck it up, accept responsibility, and make the best of a bad
situation.
I offered three choices.One, complete refund. I had two requests before I
would give anyone's money back. I wanted shake hands with all the people
who were so disappointed that they wanted the entire weekend refunded. I
wanted to apologize to their face. These were the people most upset, and I
wanted to accept responsibility in full, giving them an opportunity to vent,
attack, or (hopefully) allow me to convince them that I honestly felt awful
about the situation. During this time, one person refused to shake my hand,
more than one person suggested that I was not the natural offspring of a
married couple, one person very violently slapped my hand, but the ultimate
was the person who spit on the floor in front of me. I did accept all
comments, gave
my side and gave more than $2,500 in full refunds to people who thought the
weekend was a total waste of time. At one point, Mary Kay Adams walked the
line, shaking hands and apologizing that she was not entertaining enough.
But, I sucked it up, and gave full refunds without serious balking.
I also, allowed people a partial refund. They felt the weekend had value
but they really wanted that Robbie autograph. We offered $5 refunds for any
unused punches. Many more people took advantage of that offer, and again,
we bit the bullet, sucked it up and handed out cash. It was a little more
difficult after a friend of ours spotted two young men rummaging through the
trash for unused tickets. They were able to find some, and went to that
line for a refund.what really hurt was five minutes earlier they were in my
line receiving a full refund, then they took their "garbage" find to my wife
for a partial refund. I was made aware, but thought the situation would
worsen if I left the refund line before it was finished. We ended up giving
more than $1,500 in partial refunds (not sure how much was cheated out of
us, but again.my fault, I should pay the piper).
Finally, we offered fans who wanted a remembrance from their day to receive
one. The stars understood that the situation was not great.I promised on
their behalf that they would sign autographed photos for all who were not
happy. We took names and addresses down, and we will certainly be sending
them off with in a week. This was 140 out of the 200 people disappointed.
The vast majority. I do try to remember that those were the true
understanding folks, and the folks who were loud, abusive, violent.wet, and
cheating were in the minority. All of the Fab 4 of Voyager have agreed, and
we are fedexing as we speak. As an aside, I did receive a wonderful phone
call yesterday. Richard Arnold (Gene Rodenberry's assistant, as well as the
only person I know who was an answer on Jeopardy) had an appointment with
Terry Farrell that morning. He shared my pain, and was very supportive of
me and my efforts. Anyway, he mentioned the weekend to Terry, she wanted to
help. She offered to sign for the people willing to let us slide and did
not ask for any money back. All of the folks who were willing to accept our
compromise for signed photos will also be receiving a DAX photo signed by
Terry. When you need them, some folks really come through.
Well, that's it.I was into profit before the show ended, but only @$5,000.
Anyone wanting to do the math, I had $31,000 in hotel costs, $62,000 in
guest fees, $15,000 in airfares and another $5,000 in advertising. Yes, 450
folks came for the dinner, yes, we sold out the dealer room, and yes we did
well with our retail tables.but the budget exceeded $110,000. The refunds
hurt, and hurt us very bad. Believe me when I say that this will not happen
again, but I honestly can not come up with the answer of what more I can
do.The books are closed on this one, and I am sorry I ruined the weekend for
several very vocal fans.Is there anyone on my side?
Dave Scott."
TheShredder
>The books are closed on this one, and I am sorry I ruined the weekend for
> several very vocal fans.Is there anyone on my side?
>
> Dave Scott."
Please feel free to forward this to Mr.Scott.
Most definetly....The Stars arn't forced to be at these conventions. They
have a job to do, and that job is their number one priority apart from
familly life. They vollunteer their time for these cons, as stated.
Mostly for the fans, but I'm also assuming for some favors as well.....as I
found out while chatting with one of the guests a little after the bomb
scare.
During the bomb scare, I was a little unsure as to what was going to happen.
I had just arrived at the hotel not more than 10 minutes earlier, with
barley enough time to register. First time in PA. Needless to say I was
surprised when I found out we had to evacuate. We don't deal with this
kind of crazieness in boring old NJ, heh. So, I head out with the rest of
the crowd. Chatted a bit with a few of the conventioneers, watching all of
the excitement, as we pretty much found out what was going on through word
of mouth. Then, I immediatly went down to the Stunt Coordinators. Too bad
it was so damn tough to hear them with the sirens on, since it really did
sound interesting, but I managed to make the gist of it for the most part.
A little while later, I found out that the Stars where taking pics with the
fans. Probably to help ease the tension of the seriousness of the situation
a bit. So, I had my picture taken with Armin. Walked right past Claudia
Christianson without really realising it considering all of the
excitement....Almost got to chat a little with Robb McNeil, but then we
walked right back in.
Had a great day listening to all the guests...really wishing I had brought a
video camera with me...(A well, the next Con!). The only really bad part of
the day was that as we where heareded back into the building, I Was too busy
trying not to step over everyone in front of me, and wasn't watching where I
Was going... And I stepped in a mud pile :). But, easilly washable since I
had sandles on. Carpets might have gotten dirty on the way to the bathroom
though :).
So, Mr. Scott. Consider myself one more satisfied customer, and I can't
wait to see everyone at the Jan Meadowlands con! Hopefully this time
around, since it's not to far away, I can spend all three days there and
have even more time to chat with the stars, wich is the real reason most of
us go to these cons anway... :).
Geri Sullivan
>
> >The books are closed on this one, and I am sorry I ruined the weekend for
> > several very vocal fans.Is there anyone on my side?
> >
> > Dave Scott."
>
>
> Most definetly....The Stars arn't forced to be at these conventions. They
> have a job to do, and that job is their number one priority apart from
> familly life. They vollunteer their time for these cons, as stated.
They volunteer their time? Then why is Slanted Fedora spending over half
it's budget on guest fees? As Dave Scott wrote in the message Eric Katz
posted earlier today,
] $62,000 in guest fees
(Plus "$31,000 in hotel costs" and "$15,000 in airfares," some or much
of which I also presume went to cover guest costs in addition to the fees.)
I confess, this is a definition of "volunteer their time" with which I
am not familiar, and which I am unlikely to adopt as correct.
Geri
--
Geri Sullivan g...@toad-hall.com
TheShredder
> They volunteer their time? Then why is Slanted Fedora spending over half
> it's budget on guest fees? As Dave Scott wrote in the message Eric Katz
> posted earlier today,
>
Well, keep in mind they've also got to fly them out from where ever their
located(I'm assuming Mrs.Dawson came Directly from her China trip). They've
got to book the hotel room in advance. They've got to pay for any dinners.
Any other expenses. That's not cheap.
TheFlinx
TheShredder wrote in message
<8mae7d$1ka6$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>...
As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests, the only exception
is the Galaxy Ball which is not really a con.
FYI I was told by the management of the aborted DC con that was to be NG2000
that Jeri Ryan's fee was $15,000 just for a Saturday*, and two round trip
first class tickets.
She will not work Sundays, funny, she don't look Amish
Kathryn Robair
TheShredder wrote:
>
> Well, keep in mind they've also got to fly them out from where ever their
> located(I'm assuming Mrs.Dawson came Directly from her China trip). They've
> got to book the hotel room in advance. They've got to pay for any dinners.
> Any other expenses. That's not cheap.
The people who run the conventions pay for the guests for their time, and pay
for their rooms (usually at a separate hotel from the con), airfare, and meals.
Although, I did hear a rumor that by the mid-70's, no one would pay for the
guest's alcohol ;-D
Kathryn Robair
TheFlinx wrote:
FYI I was told by the management of the aborted DC con that was to be NG2000
> that Jeri Ryan's fee was $15,000 just for a Saturday*, and two round trip
> first class tickets.
>
Patrick Stewart was charging $10K per weekend back in the late 80's. Sort of
makes one wonder how much he would cost these days. Yikes!
P Nielsen Hayden
TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
statements like this are nonsense.
You can, of course, avoid this annoying nitpicking by dropping rasff from
your crossposts. Any time.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
John Richards
>
> As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests, the only exception
> is the Galaxy Ball which is not really a con.
>
Curious I've been running cons for twelve years or so and we've never
paid any guests any fees. Possibly the universe of discourse here is not
quite what you think it is. You might want to check those cross-post
headers.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Garth Gilmore
j> paid any guests any fees. Possibly the universe of discourse here is
not
j> quite what you think it is. You might want to check those cross-post
j> headers.
I hear what you're saying, but I have to side with Flinx here;
almost all of the local cons (Southern Ontario) that have major film and
TV guests have monstrous admission fees, ranging upwards of $60 for the
weekend. It's bad enough that the local cons are doing it, but out-of-town
cons are as well.
I'm glad you've not had similar troubles in your neck of the
woods; I wish it were that easy here.
-Garth
--
| Fidonet: Garth Gilmore 1:250/525
| Internet: Garth....@hippies.to.org
| Net250: Fidonet in Toronto, Canada
Andrew Plotkin
> John Richards <jo...@panorama.panorama.com> wrote:
> j> Curious I've been running cons for twelve years or so and we've never
> j> paid any guests any fees. Possibly the universe of discourse here is
> not
> j> quite what you think it is. You might want to check those cross-post
> j> headers.
>
> I hear what you're saying, but I have to side with Flinx here;
> almost all of the local cons (Southern Ontario) that have major film and
> TV guests have monstrous admission fees, ranging upwards of $60 for the
> weekend. It's bad enough that the local cons are doing it, but out-of-town
> cons are as well.
> I'm glad you've not had similar troubles in your neck of the
> woods; I wish it were that easy here.
And the conversational chasm stretches wider with every breath.
I bet, when John Richards says "I've been running cons for twelve years or
so", he has not gotten major film or TV guests at any of them.
There are two words spelled "con"-short-for-"convention". The newsgroup
rec.arts.sf.fandom is only about one of them. Announcements about the
other are basically off-topic.
Accordingly, I've reduced the Followup-To line. (This thread is too widely
crossposted anyway.)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Alan Braggins
> j> Curious I've been running cons for twelve years or so and we've never
> j> paid any guests any fees. Possibly the universe of discourse here is
> not
> j> quite what you think it is. You might want to check those cross-post
> j> headers.
>
> I hear what you're saying, but I have to side with Flinx here;
> almost all of the local cons (Southern Ontario) that have major film and
> TV guests have monstrous admission fees, ranging upwards of $60 for the
> weekend.
"Possibly the universe of discourse here is not quite what you think
it is. You might want to check those cross-post headers."
Hint: rec.arts.sf.fandom omitted from Followup-to: header.
TheFlinx
John Richards wrote in message <398928...@panorama.panorama.com>...
>TheFlinx wrote:
>>
>> As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests, the only
exception
>> is the Galaxy Ball which is not really a con.
>>
>
>headers.
>
>JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
>Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
>England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Which guests? If they guy who played "red shirt number four" appeared for
free I would not be surprised, I know for a fact how much you have to pay to
get a Jeri Ryan.
TheFlinx
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
> TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
>
>
>As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
>rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
>statements like this are nonsense.
Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please tell
me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>You can, of course, avoid this annoying nitpicking by dropping rasff from
>your crossposts. Any time.
Why is whether or not media stars charge for convention appearances not a
proper subject for discussion in a group dedicated to SF fandon? Seems like
a damn good subject.
BTW if you wanted to have rasff from the crosspost list you should have done
it yourself it would have prevented this response from appearing there.
Matthew Austern
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
> >
> >
> >As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
> >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
> >statements like this are nonsense.
>
>
> Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please tell
> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
You might want to consider whether "major guests" and "major ST star"
are synonyms.
Dave Weingart
>> Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
>> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please tell
>> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>
>You might want to consider whether "major guests" and "major ST star"
>are synonyms.
I suspect that for some subset of congoers, those who primarily go
to see actors from various shows, they are. I pity some of them, not
in that they wish to pay sums of money to hear an actor speak about a
TV show they they like (I spends sums of MY money on things that are
perhaps no less ridiculous in the eyes of many and I can't see that
how they spend their money is any of my business) but because they're
perhaps too blind to see that fandom is larger than that little subset, and
what they call a convention is significantly different than what
fandom-as-a-whole calls a convention.
Lecturing, however, doesn't seem to be the right way to go about it.
I mean, look, someone who primarily wants to see actors speak is going
to HATE Lunacon or Philcon or Worldcon, just as someone who dislikes
filk is going to feel bored as hell at OVFF or <plug for the Interfilk
guest>Consonance</plug> or FilkContinental, just as someone who cares
not a whit about the nuts and bolts of conrunning will hate SMOFcon,
and someone who doesn't read or have an interest in fanzines will
be falling over asleep at Corflu. But it doesn't mean that they'll
NEVER be interested in fandom-as-we-know it. Acting, however, as
if they're too out of it to Understand What Fandom Is All About is
perhaps a good way to guarantee that, and I see a lot that attitude here
(on both sides)
Maybe there ISN'T a lot of crossover interest. But just maybe, we
can gently explain things and refuse to be baited, and if we don't
agree on what fandom means to us, then we don't agree.
Dave, posting from rec.arts.sf.fandom
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Consonance 2001! Urban Tapestry!
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Mike Stein! Oh, yeah, and some guy
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux named Dave Wein-something-or-other.
ICQ 57055207 http://www.consonance.org
Andrew Plotkin
>> One of the groups this thread has been cross-posted into is
>> rec.arts.sf.fandom. The conventions we attend do not have movie
>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>> genres of fiction.
>
> Nice little mutual admiration society you've got there.
Yes, it's lovely. It gives my life shape and meaning. It also walks dogs.
Can we stop crossposting this thread? It only exists because someone
decided to post an announcement, too widely, and didn't think to set
Followup-To.
Followup-To reduced.
Matthew Austern
> > One of the groups this thread has been cross-posted into is
> > rec.arts.sf.fandom. The conventions we attend do not have movie
> > stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
> > fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
> > appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
> > come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
> > genres of fiction.
>
> Nice little mutual admiration society you've got there.
What's so bad about mutual admiration? I'd say it beats mutual
contempt any day.
TheFlinx
Randy Landers wrote in message <8mcqv5$u5d$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>"Doug Berry" <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:tkfjosgt5s11veh5m...@4ax.com...
>> Look deeply into my eyes:
>> One of the groups this thread has been cross-posted into is
>> rec.arts.sf.fandom. The conventions we attend do not have movie
>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>> genres of fiction.
>
>and Fantasy Symposia during the early 1980's, I can assure you that the
>science fiction and fantasy authors and artists who were our guests
>(including Robert Bloch, Michael Bishop, Gerry Page, David Gerrold, Brad
>Lineaweaver, Kelly and Polly Freas and Jack Williams) did receive honoraria
>(and quite substantial ones at that for some) in compensation for their
>attendance in addition to travel, food and lodging. During the same time
>frame, James Doohan, Gene Roddenberry and Ursula K. LeGuin were also
>speakers at Emory, and all received financial compensation as well.
>
>Science fiction actors are not the only ones who insist on speaking fees.
LOL! So this guy is not just an a snotty arrogant blow-hard he also does not
know what he's talking about, you gotta love it!
Randy Landers
possible
> that a writer might see friends during a university talk, a university
> speaking engagement is generally considered a job, not a social event for
> them. Thus, there's no reason they shouldn't charge for being asked to
> speak at a university any more than anyone else (well, unless it's Yale
> or Harvard, which last I heard both refused to pay speakers over their
> expenses, being able to get away with such because it's considered an
> honor/good thing to have on the resume to have spoken there).
First of all, the Emory Science Fiction and Fantasy Symposia were indeed
conventions sponsored by Psi Phi, the Emory Science Fiction and Fantasy
Club. We used the phrase "symposia" only to receive funding from the
University. We didn't charge students anything to attend, and non-students a
modest $3 or $5, depending on the year.
Secondly, it was asserted that science fiction authors never charge to make
an appearance, and I simply disputed that using my personal experience in
dealing with them. Isaac Asimov wanted the highest speaking fee, and David
Gerrold the least. And admittedly, some writers agreed to appear for their
expenses only. However, the more popular or well known the author, the
greater the fee demanded. I suspect that the same is true of Star Trek
conventions. Shatner, Stewart, etc., are going to demand and rightfully
receive more money than Security Guard #4 in "Obsession" who gets sucked dry
by the space vampire cloud. :)
Third, once Emory tightened its purse strings in 1984, the Symposias had to
be cancelled altogether because we couldn't get anything other than local
guests to agree to appear for free.
> I believe all of the writers you mention (assuming Jack Williams is
actually
> Jack Williamson) have been reasonably frequent attendees of sf conventions
> for which they weren't paid honoraria, or in some cases even expenses.
Mr. Williamson, author of The Humanoids (on which Star Trek's "I, Mudd" was
loosely based), was one of our more reasonably priced guests, in fact, and I
did not mean to assert that he or any of our guests were being unreasonable
in their expectations to be paid for a weekend of their time. Instead, it's
silly to suggest that all science fiction authors will gladly appear to
spend a weekend with "friends" at a "fan run convention" without appropriate
compensation.
Respectfully yours,
Randy Landers
Vicki Rosenzweig
don't know what newsgroup he's reading this thread in]
Quoth Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> on Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:36:34
GMT:
>> It's actually quite pathetic, in my opinion, to go to one of
>> these shows and believe that you've seen SF fandom.
>
>Ah, yes, you would know all about "pathetic" wouldn't you? (You act
>like you know all about everything, so why not this...)
If you're going to insult people publicly, it's conventional
to identify them. Snipping attributions is iffy at the best of
times.
>
>> Come to a
>> real convention. No, you won't be able to see the actors. But
>> you spend three or four days meeting new friends, choosing from a
>> variety of programming tracks and events, and spending the
>> evenings at very interesting parties.
>
>And developing one WHOPPING huge ego, it would seem.
I hadn't realized I needed a huge ego to go to interesting
parties.
Anyone got a spare?
--
Copyright 2000 Vicki Rosenzweig. Permission to insert links when
displaying is available for $100 per link. Use in this fashion
constitutes acceptance of these terms. v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Vicki Rosenzweig
>Patrick Stewart was charging $10K per weekend back in the late 80's. Sort of
>makes one wonder how much he would cost these days. Yikes!
>
I suspect it depends on what you're hiring him to do.
The New York Shakespeare Festival almost certainly didn't pay
him $5000/day to play Prospero.
TheFlinx
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
> There's always someone playing
>"let's you and him fight," and most people are sensible enough to ignore
it.
and yet here you post...
TheFlinx
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>
>Hoping you are the same,
>
indeed, well met my friend.
FYI I enjoyed my only SF con ( Harlan Elison & Frederick Poole, content wise
much better than my only ST con, I only went to meet some cool pals.
Elisabeth Carey
>
> j> Curious I've been running cons for twelve years or so and we've never
> j> paid any guests any fees. Possibly the universe of discourse here is
> not
> j> quite what you think it is. You might want to check those cross-post
> j> headers.
>
> I hear what you're saying, but I have to side with Flinx here;
> almost all of the local cons (Southern Ontario) that have major film and
> TV guests have monstrous admission fees, ranging upwards of $60 for the
> cons are as well.
> I'm glad you've not had similar troubles in your neck of the
> woods; I wish it were that easy here.
The unexamined assumption here is that "major guest" means "major film
and tv guests". The "fandom" that rec.arts.sf.fandom is involved with
is mostly not fandom that's going after the major media stars. Our
major guests are generally writers of books and short stories,
artists, editors, filkers, and fans--people who are mostly part of our
fannish community, and are coming mainly because they want to come,
who will regularly attend conventions they're not Guests of Honor at.
Several of us (here in rec.arts.sf.fandom) have tried to tell Eric
that his posts about Slanted Fedora are off-topic here because that's
not the kind of convention we're interested in. For some reason, he
simply doesn't believe us.
--
Lis Carey
This post is copyright 2000 by Elisabeth Carey. Permission to
insert links when displaying it is available for $100. Use in
Elisabeth Carey
A university symposium is not the same thing as a fan-run convention.
Leaving aside Doohan and Roddenberry, I know positively most of those
named have done fan-run conventions without getting paid. I ran
programming for a convention where Ursula Le Guin was GoH, and
received no fee, only expenses.
The same people will in fact treat different kinds of events
differently. To pick a well-known example, Isaac Asimov used to charge
a very hefty fee for all personal appearances--except that he charged
only $50 or so to speak to library groups, and nothing at all to speak
at fan-run sf conventions. A radio interviewer once asked him why he
spoke at sf conventions for free; his answer was, "I don't charge to
speak to my family."
Tom Galloway
>"Doug Berry" <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>> genres of fiction.
>Actually, as the chair of three Emory University sponsored Science Fiction
>and Fantasy Symposia during the early 1980's, I can assure you that the
>science fiction and fantasy authors and artists who were our guests
>(including Robert Bloch, Michael Bishop, Gerry Page, David Gerrold, Brad
>Lineaweaver, Kelly and Polly Freas and Jack Williams) did receive honoraria
>(and quite substantial ones at that for some) in compensation for their
>attendance in addition to travel, food and lodging. During the same time
>frame, James Doohan, Gene Roddenberry and Ursula K. LeGuin were also
>speakers at Emory, and all received financial compensation as well.
And a university symposia is not a convention. While it's certainly possible
that a writer might see friends during a university talk, a university
speaking engagement is generally considered a job, not a social event for
them. Thus, there's no reason they shouldn't charge for being asked to
speak at a university any more than anyone else (well, unless it's Yale
or Harvard, which last I heard both refused to pay speakers over their
expenses, being able to get away with such because it's considered an
honor/good thing to have on the resume to have spoken there).
I believe all of the writers you mention (assuming Jack Williams is actually
Jack Williamson) have been reasonably frequent attendees of sf conventions
for which they weren't paid honoraria, or in some cases even expenses.
tyg t...@netcom.com
P Nielsen Hayden
Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>> One of the groups this thread has been cross-posted into is
>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>> genres of fiction.
>
Yes! And we like it a lot.
P Nielsen Hayden
TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Randy Landers wrote in message <8mcqv5$u5d$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>>"Doug Berry" <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>> Look deeply into my eyes:
>>> rec.arts.sf.fandom. The conventions we attend do not have movie
>>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>>> genres of fiction.
>>
>>and Fantasy Symposia during the early 1980's, I can assure you that the
>>science fiction and fantasy authors and artists who were our guests
>>(including Robert Bloch, Michael Bishop, Gerry Page, David Gerrold, Brad
>>Lineaweaver, Kelly and Polly Freas and Jack Williams) did receive honoraria
>>(and quite substantial ones at that for some) in compensation for their
>>attendance in addition to travel, food and lodging. During the same time
>>frame, James Doohan, Gene Roddenberry and Ursula K. LeGuin were also
>>speakers at Emory, and all received financial compensation as well.
>>
>
>
>LOL! So this guy is not just an a snotty arrogant blow-hard he also does not
>know what he's talking about, you gotta love it!
It's quite true that SF professionals insist on speaking fees -- when
they're being asked to appear alongside Hollywood types who are getting
paid. I certainly wouldn't agree to "appear" at a con that paid actors
unless I was being paid as well.
This is basically a tedious old clash of axioms brought on by clueless
crossposting. Despite what gets asserted by some of the more belligerent
fans on each "side," in fact "media fans" who are determined to get into
print SF fandom generally succeed and are welcomed. And the same for fans
determined to move in the other direction. There's always someone playing
"let's you and him fight," and most people are sensible enough to ignore it.
--
P Nielsen Hayden
TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Actually, as the chair of three Emory University sponsored Science Fiction
>>and Fantasy Symposia during the early 1980's, I can assure you that the
>>science fiction and fantasy authors and artists who were our guests
>>(including Robert Bloch, Michael Bishop, Gerry Page, David Gerrold, Brad
>>Lineaweaver, Kelly and Polly Freas and Jack Williams) did receive honoraria
>>(and quite substantial ones at that for some) in compensation for their
>>attendance in addition to travel, food and lodging. During the same time
>>frame, James Doohan, Gene Roddenberry and Ursula K. LeGuin were also
>>speakers at Emory, and all received financial compensation as well.
I'm impressed, by the way, that you got Jack Williams, governor of Arizona
from 1966 to 1974. I, of course, worked on the campaign to recall Governor
Williams via petition, and in fact my father designed the printed matter for
recall candidate Jerry Pollack, which is how I came to meet a variety of
Arizona political notables including Cesar Chavez. I didn't much care for
Williams' politics -- well do I recall his assertions, in his weekly radio
broadcast, that most air pollution in Arizona was caused by backyard
barbecues, and that overpopulation was a non-issue since if the world became
too overpopulated we'd simply build a second level on the Earth. But he was
undeniably a major figure in the era of Barry Goldwater and John Rhodes, and
I'm sure he contributed substantially to your SF symposium!
P Nielsen Hayden
TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
>
>>"let's you and him fight," and most people are sensible enough to ignore
>it.
>
>
Indeed I do! With good humor and good will toward all, too.
Hoping you are the same,
--
Mary Kay Kare
<theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
> >
> >
> >As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
> >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
> >statements like this are nonsense.
>
>
> Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please tell
> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>
But major ST star was not specified in your earlier post. Just major
guest. See it's right up there. And some of us consider writers of the
stature of Bob Silverberg, for example, to be major guests. And not only
does Mr Silverberg not expect a fee, he expects to buy his own membership
to Worldcon--the biggest and best con most of us go to.
MKK
--
Member:
fwa
Evil Elitist Fannish Conspiracy
RASFF Fire, Usage, and Whinge Brigade
Worldwide TAFF Cabal (there is no cabal)
Ray Radlein
>
> I didn't much care for Williams' politics -- well do I recall his
> assertions, in his weekly radio broadcast, that most air pollution
> in Arizona was caused by backyard barbecues, and that
> overpopulation was a non-issue since if the world became too
> overpopulated we'd simply build a second level on the Earth. But
> he was undeniably a major figure in the era of Barry Goldwater and
> John Rhodes, and I'm sure he contributed substantially to your SF
> symposium!
Building a second level on the Earth certainly seems sufficiently
SFnal a concept to me.
- Ray R.
--
**********************************************************************
"LOS ANGELES: A city of millions; thousands more are born each day.
Some in maternity wards, some in creche incubators. The Artificial
ones don't have civil rights, but they still need the law. That's
why they turn to me. My name is Friday. I carry a badge."
-- Robert A. Heinlein's "Dragnet"
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
**********************************************************************
Marcus L. Rowland
<bri...@home.com> writes
>
>And developing one WHOPPING huge ego, it would seem.
Let's put it this way.
You are cross-posting to a large number of groups with startrek in their
names, and one that doesn't have startrek in the name.
Several people on this one newsgroup, which does _not_ have startrek in
the name, seem to think that there are other types of convention that
they prefer to the type _you_ prefer.
This may suggest that you have strayed into a newsgroup where people
have _different_ interests to you; not necessarily better or worse, just
_different_. This one is dominated by old-time SF fans who read books,
publish fanzines, organise and go to fan-run conventions and, by and
large, do not go to media conventions run on the intensively commercial
lines you describe.
I'm sure that you're happy with the conventions _you_ like. It just
happens that they are _not_ the conventions most of the regular
contributors to _this_ newsgroup like, which tend to be run on
completely different lines. Not necessarily better. Not necessarily
worst. Just _different_.
The readers of the other newsgroups this has been cross-posted to are
interested in the type of conventions you like. Anyone using
rec.arts.sf.fandom who is even remotely interested in those conventions
probably also reads one of the trek-related newsgroups - because they
know that they are off-topic for this one.
Follow-ups set accordingly.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
http://www.forgottenfutures.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Elisabeth Carey
>
> > And a university symposia is not a convention. While it's certainly
> possible
> > that a writer might see friends during a university talk, a university
> > speaking engagement is generally considered a job, not a social event for
> > them. Thus, there's no reason they shouldn't charge for being asked to
> > speak at a university any more than anyone else (well, unless it's Yale
> > or Harvard, which last I heard both refused to pay speakers over their
> > expenses, being able to get away with such because it's considered an
> > honor/good thing to have on the resume to have spoken there).
>
> conventions sponsored by Psi Phi, the Emory Science Fiction and Fantasy
> Club. We used the phrase "symposia" only to receive funding from the
> University. We didn't charge students anything to attend, and non-students a
> modest $3 or $5, depending on the year.
>
> Secondly, it was asserted that science fiction authors never charge to make
> an appearance, and I simply disputed that using my personal experience in
> dealing with them. Isaac Asimov wanted the highest speaking fee, and David
> Gerrold the least. And admittedly, some writers agreed to appear for their
> expenses only. However, the more popular or well known the author, the
> greater the fee demanded. I suspect that the same is true of Star Trek
> conventions. Shatner, Stewart, etc., are going to demand and rightfully
> receive more money than Security Guard #4 in "Obsession" who gets sucked dry
> by the space vampire cloud. :)
In fact, though, Isaac Asimov on many, many occasions over many, many
years, _did_ appear at science fiction conventions for no fee, and
even no expenses. Your symposia were not *conventions* of the kind
we're talking about, not the kind of event that writers who are a part
of the fannish subculture go to more for social reasons than any other
reason.
> Third, once Emory tightened its purse strings in 1984, the Symposias had to
> be cancelled altogether because we couldn't get anything other than local
> guests to agree to appear for free.
Because it wasn't a fannish convention. It was a speaking engagement,
not a social event for them.
> > I believe all of the writers you mention (assuming Jack Williams is
> actually
> > Jack Williamson) have been reasonably frequent attendees of sf conventions
> > for which they weren't paid honoraria, or in some cases even expenses.
>
> Mr. Williamson, author of The Humanoids (on which Star Trek's "I, Mudd" was
> loosely based), was one of our more reasonably priced guests, in fact, and I
> did not mean to assert that he or any of our guests were being unreasonable
> in their expectations to be paid for a weekend of their time. Instead, it's
> silly to suggest that all science fiction authors will gladly appear to
> spend a weekend with "friends" at a "fan run convention" without appropriate
> compensation.
But it is true of a great many sf writers, including all the non-media
folk you named, and a good many of us in this group know this from
personal experience of having been on the organizing committee for
fan-run sf conventions where these people DID spend the weekend, and
participate in the programming, for no fee, and they didn't even get
expenses unless they were Guests of Honor.
Alan Braggins
> "TheFlinx" <theF...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
> > >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
> > > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
> > >
> > >As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
> > >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
> > >statements like this are nonsense.
> >
> > Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
> > As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please tell
> > me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>
> You might want to consider whether "major guests" and "major ST star"
> are synonyms.
And you might want to stay out of rec.arts.sf.fandom until you've
done so. Followup-To set.
TheFlinx
Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
>> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
>> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
>> >
>> >
>> >As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
>> >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
>> >statements like this are nonsense.
>>
>>
>> Gee, I'm terrified at the thought...
>> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please
tell
>> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>>
>guest. See it's right up there. And some of us consider writers of the
>stature of Bob Silverberg, for example, to be major guests. And not only
>does Mr Silverberg not expect a fee, he expects to buy his own membership
>to Worldcon--the biggest and best con most of us go to.
>
>MKK
Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST con.
Erik V. Olson
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>>
>> I didn't much care for Williams' politics -- well do I recall his
>> assertions, in his weekly radio broadcast, that most air pollution
>> in Arizona was caused by backyard barbecues, and that
>> overpopulation was a non-issue since if the world became too
>> overpopulated we'd simply build a second level on the Earth. But
>> he was undeniably a major figure in the era of Barry Goldwater and
>> John Rhodes, and I'm sure he contributed substantially to your SF
>> symposium!
>
>Building a second level on the Earth certainly seems sufficiently
>SFnal a concept to me.
>
After alt.pave.the.earth, we'll need alt.deck.the.earth.
(Aside, most of downtown Chicago, including the bits around Chicon, is
already double-decked. In some spots, like Lower Lower Wacker Drive, it's
three levels)
--
Erik V. Olson: er...@mo.net : http://walden.mo.net/~eriko/
James Davis Nicoll
Ray Radlein wrote:
>
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> >
> > I didn't much care for Williams' politics -- well do I recall his
> > assertions, in his weekly radio broadcast, that most air pollution
> > in Arizona was caused by backyard barbecues, and that
> > overpopulation was a non-issue since if the world became too
> > overpopulated we'd simply build a second level on the Earth. But
> > he was undeniably a major figure in the era of Barry Goldwater and
> > John Rhodes, and I'm sure he contributed substantially to your SF
> > symposium!
>
> Building a second level on the Earth certainly seems sufficiently
> SFnal a concept to me.
>
_Realms of Tartarus_, Brain Stableford.
Alan Braggins
> >> >As long as you guys keep insisting on crossposting this stuff to
> >> >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
> >> >statements like this are nonsense.
>
Yes, but it's crossposted to rec.arts.sf.fandom, where it's nonsense.
Followup-To set.
John Richards
>
> Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
> >In article <8mcce9$dqb$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "TheFlinx"
> ><theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
> >> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:58:00 -0400,
> >> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >rec.arts.sf.fandom, you are going to have people pointing out that
> >> >statements like this are nonsense.
> >>
> >>
> >> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please
> tell
> >> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
> >>
> >But major ST star was not specified in your earlier post. Just major
> >guest. See it's right up there. And some of us consider writers of the
> >stature of Bob Silverberg, for example, to be major guests. And not only
> >does Mr Silverberg not expect a fee, he expects to buy his own membership
> >to Worldcon--the biggest and best con most of us go to.
> >
> >MKK
>
In which case perhaps you should keep that qualifier in subsequent
statements. I for one would have no quarrels with the statement "As far
as I know, all ST cons pay fees to major guests". This is what I meant
by earlier comments on the universe of discourse.
I have re-set the followups to exclude rasff.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Fiona Anderson
Olson <er...@physiciansedge.com> writes
>After alt.pave.the.earth, we'll need alt.deck.the.earth.
>
>(Aside, most of downtown Chicago, including the bits around Chicon, is
>already double-decked. In some spots, like Lower Lower Wacker Drive, it's
>three levels)
After wading my way through the rest of this deeply tedious thread (*),
thanks very much to you for giving me a good laugh!!! :)
(*) The only surprise was finding myself for perhaps the only time in
absolute agreement with Patrick.
--
*WARNING* You have entered a Tact Free Zone
Fiona Anderson
http://www.intersec.demon.co.uk/tactfree
Mary Kay Kare
<theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
> >In article <8mcce9$dqb$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "TheFlinx"
> ><theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
> >> >
> >> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please
> tell
> >> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
> >>
> >But major ST star was not specified in your earlier post. Just major
> >guest. See it's right up there. And some of us consider writers of the
> >stature of Bob Silverberg, for example, to be major guests. And not only
> >does Mr Silverberg not expect a fee, he expects to buy his own membership
> >to Worldcon--the biggest and best con most of us go to.
> >
> >MKK
>
>
> Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST con.
I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
from adressing me as such. As for the contents of your remark, the thread
may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
sloppy thought.
John Richards
>
> Which guests? If they guy who played "red shirt number four" appeared for
> free I would not be surprised,
Off the top of my head the conventions on which I have been on the
committe have had as guests:
Patrick Tilley, Michael DeLarabetti, Geoff Ryman, Brian Stableford,
Josef Nesvadba, Bruce Sterling, Gwyneth Jones, Colin Greenland, Norman
Spinrad, N. Lee Wood, James Hogan, John Brunner, George R.R. Martin, Don
Lawrence, Brian Aldiss, Octavia E. Butler, David Langford, Jon Bing,
Stephen Baxter, Ian Watson, John Whitbourn, Jeff Noon, Diana Wynne
Jones, Warren Ellis, Michael Sheard and Richard LaParmentier.
I have also organized speaking events on a smaller scale for Terry
Pratchett, Neil Gaiman and Julliet E. McKenna.
I'm not going to try and go through the guests at conventions where I
have been working on a staff position or with whom I have done panels.
Of course of the above only two are actors (neither asked for a fee
though).
> I know for a fact how much you have to pay to
> get a Jeri Ryan.
Is there more than one then?
Follow-ups reset to cut out rasff.
Laura Haywood-Cory
> Maybe there ISN'T a lot of crossover interest. But just maybe, we
> can gently explain things and refuse to be baited, and if we don't
> agree on what fandom means to us, then we don't agree.
*applause*
> Dave, posting from rec.arts.sf.fandom
I've also been reading and replying from rec.arts.sf.fandom - though I
consider myself a Trek fan, I don't usually follow any of the Trek groups
(limited time, too many posts to read as it is).
I consider myself a hybrid fan: I like media sf (Babylon 5, ST, Star Wars,
etc), but I also love to read, and play rpgs and listen to filk. As such,
I like to try and bridge the perceived gulf between literary fans and
media fans, as the two groups sometimes don't quite see eye-to-eye.
I think it would be great if some Trek fans who just go to these pro shows
would come to more of the other kind of convention, the ones run purely by
fans, for fans: These volunteer non-profit cons usually can't afford to
get media guests, big-name or otherwise.
Authors, however, don't usually charge appearance fees and are usually
happy to meet people who enjoy their books, talk on panels with other
authors, sign autographs for free, etc. And the preregistration fees are
usually more reasonable, too: $30-$40 for a weekend, instead of $60 for a
day.
The catch, though, is that you're expected to participate, not just sit
back and be entertained. That's why most fan-run cons refer to the
admission fee as a Membership--you've joined the membership of the
convention, not bought a "ticket" to a "show."
That means that if you have an idea for a panel, or if you'd like a room
to set up for singing Star Trek filk and it's not already on the program,
you find someone and ask. Chances are, you'll get a positive response
and be put in charge of it. But you have to make the initiative.
Likewise, if you see the line for registration stretching out the door,
you'll probably get a very enthusiastic reply if you walk up to the
person in charge and say, "Can I help out here?" (as opposed to being
told that no, Mr. Big Name requires professional security at all times)
Most fan-run cons do have a framework of programs, but there's definitely
a Do-It-Yourself element that you won't find with Trek shows. It's a way
to make the con yours, and it allows you to mix and mingle and meet other
fans. And it's fun. :)
-Laura
--
Laura Haywood-Cory
Research Triangle SF Society - http://www.rtsfs.org
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill - monthly sf meetings
Trinoc-coN - http://www.trinoc-con.org
the Triangle's sf conference, 9/29-10/1/2000
TheFlinx
You confuse a discussion of Star Trek cons with one about general SF cons
and I'm the sloppy one? Well excuse the hell out of me sweetcakes.
John Richards
>
> > > Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST con.
> >
> > I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
> > from adressing me as such.
>
> Baldridge?
>
> > As for the contents of your remark, the thread
> > may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
> > your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
> > sloppy thought.
>
> You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
> you.
And this is an example of how clear your own though and expression is no
doubt?
follow-up set accordingly.
TheFlinx
>
>follow-up set accordingly.
Didn't work...
DoQnar
Dave Weingart <phyd...@liii.com> wrote in message
news:8mcjcr$7vt$1...@cedar.ggn.net...
<snip>just as someone who cares
> not a whit about the nuts and bolts of conrunning will hate SMOFcon
Dave,
Since you're web page indicates that you are also near the SF Bay area, may
I ask a simple question? Where/what/when is SMOFcon? (OK, that was a bit of
a complex one) Any web links?
--
-DoQnar {{;^{D>
(Warning: Reply-to address has been changed - Spammers HAVE no Honor!)
mike weber
<lis....@mediaone.net> typed
>Randy Landers wrote:
>>
<stuff about the Emory symposia snipped>
>In fact, though, Isaac Asimov on many, many occasions over many, many
>years, _did_ appear at science fiction conventions for no fee, and
>even no expenses. Your symposia were not *conventions* of the kind
>we're talking about, not the kind of event that writers who are a part
>of the fannish subculture go to more for social reasons than any other
>reason.
>
>> Third, once Emory tightened its purse strings in 1984, the Symposias had to
>> be cancelled altogether because we couldn't get anything other than local
>> guests to agree to appear for free.
>
>Because it wasn't a fannish convention. It was a speaking engagement,
>not a social event for them.
Right -- i was there for the one at which Robert Bloch and David
Gerrold were the guests. It was definitely *not* an "SF convention"
in the meaning being used here by either the rasffers or the others.
>
>> > I believe all of the writers you mention (assuming Jack Williams is
>> actually
>> > Jack Williamson) have been reasonably frequent attendees of sf conventions
>> > for which they weren't paid honoraria, or in some cases even expenses.
>>
>> Mr. Williamson, author of The Humanoids (on which Star Trek's "I, Mudd" was
>> loosely based), was one of our more reasonably priced guests, in fact, and I
>> did not mean to assert that he or any of our guests were being unreasonable
>> in their expectations to be paid for a weekend of their time. Instead, it's
>> silly to suggest that all science fiction authors will gladly appear to
>> spend a weekend with "friends" at a "fan run convention" without appropriate
>> compensation.
>
>But it is true of a great many sf writers, including all the non-media
>folk you named, and a good many of us in this group know this from
>personal experience of having been on the organizing committee for
>fan-run sf conventions where these people DID spend the weekend, and
>participate in the programming, for no fee, and they didn't even get
>expenses unless they were Guests of Honor.
OTOH, there is the element that if the perosn in question would not
have been attending your event if you hadn't requested his presence,
*some* compensation is certainly in order.
Luckily, for SF cons, with SF authors as guests, many of them are or
were fans themselves[1], and the compensation that is usually
completely acceptable is expenses -- travel, especially if you're
inviting someone who lives in FarFarAway, Nebraska and your con is in
Miami, lodging (i heard that Mr. Bloch was lodged in a college dorm at
Emory and was a bit disgruntled about it), meals and -- probably -- a
staff liaison to make sure that he/she doesn't lack for anything
reasonable.
[1]Which, for the benefit of those whose only mode of reference is
"pay actors to appear at the convention" is why SF authors will often
attend conventions on their own, as walk-ins, for which they usually
get a comped membership and (often) an invitation to join the
programming
--
He had long ago come to the conclusion that there were no
"things Man was Not Meant To Know". He was willing to believe
that there were things Man was Too Dumb To Figure Out
<mike weber> <kras...@mindspring.com>
Ambitious Incomplete web site: http://weberworld.virtualave.net
Mary Kay Kare
<bri...@home.com> wrote:
> > > Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a
ST con.
> >
> > I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
> > from adressing me as such.
>
> And just who the hell do you think you are anyway, Letitia freaking
> Baldridge?
>
> > As for the contents of your remark, the thread
> > may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
> > your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
> > sloppy thought.
>
> Listen, honey, neither Flinx' expression nor his thought are sloppy.
> You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
> you.
>
Oh, good. Name calling and insults. No one invited you to this party.
You could leave.
>plonk<
DoQnar
THX-1138 (no, wait, that was underground)
Even Harry Harrison's "Bill, The Galactic Hero" had the whole earth covered
in steel..
(many more spring to mind without naming themselves...
--
-DoQnar {{;^{D>
(Warning: Reply-to address has been changed - Spammers HAVE no Honor!)
James Davis Nicoll <jdni...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398ACFF3...@home.com...
P Nielsen Hayden
TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[to Mary Kay Kare]
>Excuse me honey [...]
It's nice when the comic relief steps onto stage clearly labeled as such. I
understand the part where he fights an inflated pig bladder is amusing, too.
Joshua Hesse
:Luckily, for SF cons, with SF authors as guests, many of them are or
:were fans themselves[1], and the compensation that is usually
:completely acceptable is expenses -- travel, especially if you're
:inviting someone who lives in FarFarAway, Nebraska and your con is in
:Miami, lodging (i heard that Mr. Bloch was lodged in a college dorm at
:Emory and was a bit disgruntled about it), meals and -- probably -- a
:staff liaison to make sure that he/she doesn't lack for anything
:reasonable.
FarFarAway, Nebraska? [shuffles though the local maps]
Nope, not around here.
Heck, if a little no-name con in Nebraska like ConCussion
(shameless plug: http://straylight.unl.edu/concussion ) can get
Big Name Guests[tm] like Timothy Zahn (a couple years ago) and
actors like Michael Sheard* (a couple weeks ago) then I don't see
why I should bother with a con where you have to pay big bucks to
even get within 20 feet of a guest? I mean, if I go to a con with
say, Michael Dorn, then I'd *love* to ask him about "I am Weasel."
...that's not going to happen at a commercial con.
* Michael Sheard *did* get money by attending the convention, it's just
that it came from the autobiographies he was selling. Sort of what
Glen Cook does, only on a smaller scale.
-Josh
--
"I have also mastered pomposity, even if I do say so myself." -Kryten
Dave Weingart
>understand the part where he fights an inflated pig bladder is amusing, too.
No, that's probably on rec.arts.sf.fandom.iron-chef
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Consonance 2001! Urban Tapestry!
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Mike Stein! Oh, yeah, and some guy
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux named Dave Wein-something-or-other.
ICQ 57055207 http://www.consonance.org
Alison Scott
>Mr. Williamson, author of The Humanoids (on which Star Trek's "I, Mudd" was
>loosely based), was one of our more reasonably priced guests, in fact, and I
>did not mean to assert that he or any of our guests were being unreasonable
>in their expectations to be paid for a weekend of their time. Instead, it's
>silly to suggest that all science fiction authors will gladly appear to
>spend a weekend with "friends" at a "fan run convention" without appropriate
>compensation.
>
I don't think anyone said that "all" sf authors would. However, over
the years, I've seen nearly every major author in the field, at
conventions that do not pay any further fee beyond expenses (and
pretty modest expenses at that, with features like second class rail
travel). I've been involved in running a number of cons; we've always
had great guests, and there's never been any suggestion of their
receiving more than their reasonable expenses for the weekend.
--
Alison Scott ali...@kittywompus.com & www.kittywompus.com
Kittywompus Tracks Fanzines -- at www.kittywompus.com/fanzines/reviews/
Laura Haywood-Cory
> Listen, honey, neither Flinx' expression nor his thought are sloppy.
> You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
> you.
*sigh* Here we go with the generalizations again. I've tried to be polite
and reasonable and don't really care to be called an "elitist, arrogant
ass."
Mary Kay Kare
<doq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dave Weingart <phyd...@liii.com> wrote in message
> news:8mcjcr$7vt$1...@cedar.ggn.net...
> <snip>just as someone who cares
> > not a whit about the nuts and bolts of conrunning will hate SMOFcon
>
> Dave,
> Since you're web page indicates that you are also near the SF Bay area, may
> I ask a simple question? Where/what/when is SMOFcon? (OK, that was a bit of
> a complex one) Any web links?
>
SMOFcon is a convention specifically for convention runners about running
conventions. It moves around every year. Last year was New Orleans;
upcoming is Cocoa Beach, Fla.
John Dallman
ali...@kittywompus.com (Alison Scott) wrote:
> I don't think anyone said that "all" sf authors would. However, over
> the years, I've seen nearly every major author in the field, at
> conventions that do not pay any further fee beyond expenses (and
> pretty modest expenses at that, with features like second class rail
> travel). I've been involved in running a number of cons; we've always
> had great guests, and there's never been any suggestion of their
> receiving more than their reasonable expenses for the weekend.
You know, how much you have to pay for a guest just might be related to
how much fun the guest thinks they'll have.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
Dave Weingart
> Since you're web page indicates that you are also near the SF Bay area, may
> I ask a simple question? Where/what/when is SMOFcon? (OK, that was a bit of
> a complex one) Any web links?
Actually, I'm nowhere near the Bay Area, unless you count perhaps
the Great South Bay or Oyster Bay here on Long Island (I'm the Interfilk
guest at Consonance in the Bay Area in March, so y'all should come hear
me and sing along -- and I'll be going to ConJose in San Jose in 2002)
SMOFcon, however, is a con specifically about the nuts and bolts of
conrunning (and boy, are there a lot of nuts involved in conrunning).
I don't have a specific URL; like Worldcon and the Permanent Floating
Northeast Filk Con, it moves from year to year).
Loren Joseph MacGregor
>Listen, honey, neither Flinx' expression nor his thought are sloppy.
>You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
>you.
Clearly, this is someone who knows elegant thought and expression.
By that I mean you, and you, and you. And you, too!
-- LJM (you who?)
Gamin Davis
saying <8mec0a$nch$1...@news2.isis.unc.edu> in alt.startrek.creative to anyone
with the patience to listen:
>I think it would be great if some Trek fans who just go to these pro shows
>would come to more of the other kind of convention, the ones run purely by
>fans, for fans: These volunteer non-profit cons usually can't afford to
>get media guests, big-name or otherwise.
PMFJI in the middle of this, but just as a point of interest, I enjoy
*both* types of cons. When we lived in CA, about the only type of con I
*could* go to was a pro con (Creation, specifically), and yes, I collect
sutographs and really enjoy seeing the ST (especially TOS) stars--and yes,
for *my* purposes, they are "major stars". But I also have gone to fan-run
cons in my time and enjoyed them on their own merit. I like the small,
cozy feel of them and I'm *still* trying to get to a fanzine con. So it's
probably not a good idea to assume that attendees of one have no knowledge
of the other. I would have gladly gone to a fan con in CA if I could have
*found* one that was focused on ST (I did attend some general SF/fantasy
cons when I could find them, but I prefer cons focused on ST).
Slanted Fedora's autograph policy appears identical to the one
Creation had moved to about the time I left CA. Personally I preferred it
when the autograph lines were separate from the seating arrangements.
There was a tendency for those in line to wind up missing appearances of
stars whose speeches they wanted to hear, but at least you didn't feel like
you were being discriminated against because you couldn't pay beaucoup
bucks for the Golden Circle seats. (Ironically, I'd been doing my best to
get those up until the time they started that, just so I could get decent
photos of people on stage. Then I got a camera with a zoom lens and
thought I would be okay with *late* Preferred Seating and General
Admission...which was about the time they changed the autograph policy.
Oh, silly me...)
Gamin, posting from ASC
Irv Koch
<snip>
> * Michael Sheard *did* get money by attending the convention, it's just
> that it came from the autobiographies he was selling. Sort of what
> Glen Cook does, only on a smaller scale.
I hope my trimming ALL the non-appropriate headers worked. I don't seem
to have a separate setting for Followup.
Anyway, Glen Cook is a special case. He apparently owns his own book
store and is at least a semi-professional Dealer, not just his own
books. (And I finally met his wife at Rivercon. Neat.)
mike weber
>SMOFcon, however, is a con specifically about the nuts and bolts of
>conrunning (and boy, are there a lot of nuts involved in conrunning).
And a lot of them bolt after they run a WorldCon.
Paula Lieberman
news:398b9750...@news.mindspring.com...
> On 4 Aug 2000 23:25:11 GMT, phyd...@liii.com (Dave Weingart) typed
>
>
> >SMOFcon, however, is a con specifically about the nuts and bolts of
> >conrunning (and boy, are there a lot of nuts involved in conrunning).
>
> And a lot of them bolt after they run a WorldCon.
In which directions, though?! (Some run away, some run -to-.... )
Paula Lieberman
news:398C1192...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com...
Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long- time,
and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he has
for sale.
mike weber
<paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
>Irv Koch <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote in message
>> Anyway, Glen Cook is a special case. He apparently owns his own book
>> store and is at least a semi-professional Dealer, not just his own
>> books. (And I finally met his wife at Rivercon. Neat.)
>
>Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long- time,
>and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he has
>for sale.
>
Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
Doug Wickstrom
>Excuse me honey
<Plonk!>
--
Doug Wickstrom
"I'm sick of these conventional marriages. One woman and one man was
good enough for your grandmother, but who wants to marry your
grandmother? Nobody! Not even your grandfather." --Groucho Marx
Doug Wickstrom
<bri...@home.com> excited the ether to say:
>> > Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST con.
>>
>> I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
>> from adressing me as such.
>
>And just who the hell do you think you are anyway, Letitia freaking
>Baldridge?
>
>> As for the contents of your remark, the thread
>> may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
>> your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
>> sloppy thought.
>
>Listen, honey, neither Flinx' expression nor his thought are sloppy.
>You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
>you.
<Plonk!>
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Those who survived the San Francisco earthquake said, "Thank God, I'm still
alive." But of course those who died, their lives will never be the same again."
--Barbara Boxer
Mary Kay Kare
kras...@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 01:56:24 -0400, "Paula Lieberman"
> <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
>
> >Irv Koch <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> Anyway, Glen Cook is a special case. He apparently owns his own book
> >> store and is at least a semi-professional Dealer, not just his own
> >> books. (And I finally met his wife at Rivercon. Neat.)
> >
> >Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long- time,
> >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he has
> >for sale.
> >
> Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
> RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
> read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
> --
> He had long ago come to the conclusion that there were no
> "things Man was Not Meant To Know". He was willing to believe
> that there were things Man was Too Dumb To Figure Out
Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
the US, but was worth every penny.
mike weber
typed
>In article <398bb5ad...@news.mindspring.com>,
>kras...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> Yup. And, as usual, [Glen Cook] burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
>> RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
>> read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
>
>Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
>the US, but was worth every penny.
>
And *that* was a hard choice to make -- go with the one i knew and
loved, or get the new one instead...
--
He had long ago come to the conclusion that there were no
"things Man was Not Meant To Know". He was willing to believe
that there were things Man was Too Dumb To Figure Out
<mike weber> <kras...@mindspring.com>
Margaretewelsh
>Subject: Re: Beware of Slanted Fedora Cons!
>From: Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com>
>Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:20:43 GMT
>
>> > Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST
>con.
>>
>> I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
>> from adressing me as such.
>
>And just who the hell do you think you are anyway, Letitia freaking
>Baldridge?
>
>> As for the contents of your remark, the thread
>> may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
>> your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
>> sloppy thought.
>
>Listen, honey, neither Flinx' expression nor his thought are sloppy.
>You, however, are an elitist, arrogant ass, just like all the rest of
>you.
oooo! i'm scared, so werry, werry scared.
you were rude.
she called you on it.
cope.
mew
Paula Lieberman
news:kare-05080...@c797629-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com...
> > <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
> >
time,
> > >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he
has
> > >for sale.
> > >
> > RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
> > read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
> Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
> the US, but was worth every penny.
Huh? It's a YA hardcover over here, I forget which publisher. I bought a
copy of it earlier this year at New England Mobile Book Fair, same place I
picked up the US YA hardcover of _Fire and Hemlock_ years ago.... Fire and
Hemlock may or may not be out of print here -- YA hardcovers tend to stay in
print for quite a while, especially if the author is one who's continuing to
get new book contracts and printings in hardcover of those new books.
Ulrika O'Brien
kras...@mindspring.com says...
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 01:56:24 -0400, "Paula Lieberman"
> <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
>
>
> >> Anyway, Glen Cook is a special case. He apparently owns his own book
> >> store and is at least a semi-professional Dealer, not just his own
> >> books. (And I finally met his wife at Rivercon. Neat.)
> >
> >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he has
> >for sale.
> >
> Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
> RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
> read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
IMO, much as I love it, FIRE AND HEMLOCK is not a good book to start
someone on who isn't already a fairly trusting Jones fan. The payoff
is mostly back-loaded, and even to me, I find I enjoy it more as a
re-read, knowing what I do about where it's going.
--
Ulrika O'Brien * member fwa * Rabble without a clue
mike weber
O'Brien) typed
>IMO, much as I love it, FIRE AND HEMLOCK is not a good book to start
>someone on who isn't already a fairly trusting Jones fan. The payoff
>is mostly back-loaded, and even to me, I find I enjoy it more as a
>re-read, knowing what I do about where it's going.
>
>
You're quite right -- and i wasn't thinking. I forgot how much work
it is to start out.
--
"It's not what you don't know that can hurt you -- it's the things that
you do know that AREN'T true..." ("The Notebooks of Lazarus Long"?)
================================================================
mike weber kras...@mindspring.com
half complete website of Xeno--http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
<paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
>Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> wrote in message
>news:kare-05080...@c797629-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com...
>> In article <398bb5ad...@news.mindspring.com>,
>> kras...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 01:56:24 -0400, "Paula Lieberman"
>> > <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
>> >
>> > >Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long-
>time,
>> > >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he
>has
>> > >for sale.
>> > >
>> > Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
>> > RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
>> > read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
>
>> Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
>> the US, but was worth every penny.
>
>Huh? It's a YA hardcover over here, I forget which publisher. I bought a
>copy of it earlier this year at New England Mobile Book Fair, same place I
>picked up the US YA hardcover of _Fire and Hemlock_ years ago.... Fire and
>Hemlock may or may not be out of print here -- YA hardcovers tend to stay in
>print for quite a while, especially if the author is one who's continuing to
>get new book contracts and printings in hardcover of those new books.
>
They must be from some really obscure publisher, 'cos Amazon don't
list 'em, and it *does* list the Meisha Merlin catalog...
Just checked -- "Dark Lord" isn't even mentioned in "Upcoming/On
Order" and "Fire & Hemlock" is specifically listed as OP.
The only listed US edition of "Howl's Moving Castle" is a library HC,
too... (Perhaps your source had the library editions and they've gone
OP on "F&H"?)
Ulrika O'Brien
kras...@mindspring.com says...
Weird.
I bought my copy of the DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM down the street at
Borders. I'm sure it was an American edition hardcover, though
naturally I can't figure out where I've squirreled it away...oops,
I take that back. It was just where I thought, shelved, only
somehow a stack of hardcover books had materialized in front of
it. Can't imagine how that happened. Anyway, it's Greenwillow
Press, which is, apparently, an imprint of William Morrow.
Its copyright date is 1998, so it's possible the hardcover is
now out of print, and I've no idea if there was ever a paperback
edition.
Likewise, though it's nowhere I can readily lay hands on it just
now, my copy of HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE was a US paperback edition.
Though I grant you that Jones does not seem very good at staying
in print in the U.S. I bought three or four copies of the
EIGHT DAYS OF LUKE hardcover when I found them remaindered at one
of those fly-by-night no name discount book warehouse stores.
I just gave away the last spare this year.
It's also worth noting that Amazon, while a pretty good resource,
is far from infallible. While I don't usually find them to be
wrong with claims that something is out of print, they are often
mistaken when they claim that something is out of stock, at least
in my experience. Or else they mean "out of stock at Amazon,"
which is not what I mean by out of stock.
Too, you can always order Brit editions directly from Amazon UK.
Mary Kay Kare
<paal@REMOVE_gis.net> wrote:
> Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> wrote in message
> news:kare-05080...@c797629-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com...
> > In article <398bb5ad...@news.mindspring.com>,
> > kras...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 01:56:24 -0400, "Paula Lieberman"
> > > <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
> > >
> > > >Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long-
> time,
> > > >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he
> has
> > > >for sale.
> > > >
> > > Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
> > > RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
> > > read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
>
> > Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
> > the US, but was worth every penny.
>
> Huh? It's a YA hardcover over here, I forget which publisher.
Well, Amazon.com didn't seem to know this when I looked for it.
Vicki Rosenzweig
>
>Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
>>In article <8mefvb$cks$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "TheFlinx"
>><theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
>>> >In article <8mcce9$dqb$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "TheFlinx"
>>> ><theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>As far as I know, all cons pay fees to the major guests
>>> >> >
>>
>>> >> As long as you are pointing out how that statement is nonsense please
>>> tell
>>> >> me what major ST star you can get to appear for free.
>>> >>
>>> >But major ST star was not specified in your earlier post. Just major
>>> >guest. See it's right up there. And some of us consider writers of the
>>> >stature of Bob Silverberg, for example, to be major guests. And not
>only
>>> >does Mr Silverberg not expect a fee, he expects to buy his own
>membership
>>> >to Worldcon--the biggest and best con most of us go to.
>>> >
>>> >MKK
>>>
>>>
>>> Excuse me honey, the whole thread was started over comments about a ST
>con.
>>
>>I beg your pardon. I am not your honey and I'd appreciate you refrain
>>from adressing me as such. As for the contents of your remark, the thread
>>may have started about a ST con, but that is not what you specified in
>>your message about fees and major guests. Sloppy expression is a sign of
>>sloppy thought.
>
>
>You confuse a discussion of Star Trek cons with one about general SF cons
>and I'm the sloppy one? Well excuse the hell out of me sweetcakes.
>
Well, if you meant "Star Trek cons only" you could have said so,
boychik. Over here on Earth we don't expect each other to be telepaths.
I'd love to excuse the hell out of you--I think it would markedly
improve your disposition--but it's not that easy. If you want to
apologize, not repeating the offense is a good first start. And
if you were a civilized human being, you might have called
someone you barely knew "honey" as a friendly thing (not my dialect,
but some people's), but you wouldn't have insisted on continuing when
Mary Kay made clear that she didn't appreciate it.
--
Copyright 2000 Vicki Rosenzweig. Permission to insert links when
displaying is available for $100 per link. Use in this fashion
constitutes acceptance of these terms. v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Vicki Rosenzweig
>On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:36:28 GMT,
> Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>>> One of the groups this thread has been cross-posted into is
>>> rec.arts.sf.fandom. The conventions we attend do not have movie
>>> stars as guests. We have authors, scientists, people from
>>> fandom's history. This people do not charge for their
>>> appearences, or autographs, or to have their picture taken. They
>>> come, as we do, to have a good time with people who like the same
>>> genres of fiction.
>>
>>Nice little mutual admiration society you've got there.
>
>
>Yes! And we like it a lot.
Except on alternate Fridays, when we get far nastier than poor Flinx
is capable of being in the same state as.
Paula Lieberman
news:MPG.13f61756...@news.earthlink.net...> > On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:33:59 -0400, "Paula Lieberman"
> > <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
> >
> > Just checked -- "Dark Lord" isn't even mentioned in "Upcoming/On
> > Order" and "Fire & Hemlock" is specifically listed as OP.
> >
> > The only listed US edition of "Howl's Moving Castle" is a library HC,
> > too... (Perhaps your source had the library editions and they've gone
> > OP on "F&H"?)
>
> Weird.
>
> I bought my copy of the DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM down the street at
> Borders. I'm sure it was an American edition hardcover, though
> naturally I can't figure out where I've squirreled it away...oops,
> I take that back. It was just where I thought, shelved, only
> somehow a stack of hardcover books had materialized in front of
> it. Can't imagine how that happened. Anyway, it's Greenwillow
> Press, which is, apparently, an imprint of William Morrow.
>
> Its copyright date is 1998, so it's possible the hardcover is
> now out of print, and I've no idea if there was ever a paperback
> edition.
The Books in Print CD-ROM at New England Mobile Book Fair had it being in
print (I didn't check the shelves, there are probably copies still tehre)
and 13 other editions of Diana Wynne Jones books available. I picked up a
paperback of _Hexwood_, which had a cover price of something like $3.99 or
$4.99.
TheFlinx
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote in message ...
The context was clear in the portion of the post she did did not bother to
read before she butted in with her plainly ill-considered response
>I'd love to excuse the hell out of you--I think it would markedly
>improve your disposition--but it's not that easy. If you want to
>apologize, not repeating the offense is a good first start. And
>if you were a civilized human being, you might have called
>someone you barely knew "honey" as a friendly thing (not my dialect,
>but some people's), but you wouldn't have insisted on continuing when
>Mary Kay made clear that she didn't appreciate it.
I was not apologising lambiekins, Don't you fandom types understand sarcasm?
The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
that hardly encourage friendly reply
Marcus L. Rowland
<kras...@mindspring.com> writes
>
>Just checked -- "Dark Lord" isn't even mentioned in "Upcoming/On
>Order" and "Fire & Hemlock" is specifically listed as OP.
>
>The only listed US edition of "Howl's Moving Castle" is a library HC,
>too... (Perhaps your source had the library editions and they've gone
>OP on "F&H"?)
_Fire and Hemlock_ is one of the re-releases in the current "let's
appeal to Harry Potter's readers" splurge, published by Collins at
UKP 12.99 some time this year.
Having said that, my copy turned up in a charity shop that occasionally
has review copies prior to publication, so it's possible it isn't
generally available yet - the last one I got there was an uncorrected
proof of Pratchett's _The Truth_, and that's not out until November.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
http://www.forgottenfutures.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Ed Dravecky III
> Heck, if a little no-name con in Nebraska like ConCussion
> (shameless plug: http://straylight.unl.edu/concussion ) can get
> Big Name Guests[tm] like Timothy Zahn (a couple years ago) and
> actors like Michael Sheard* (a couple weeks ago) then I don't see
> why I should bother with a con where you have to pay big bucks to
> even get within 20 feet of a guest? I mean, if I go to a con with
> say, Michael Dorn, then I'd *love* to ask him about "I am Weasel."
> ...that's not going to happen at a commercial con.
That's one of the things I really like about SciFiExpo.com's Toy
Show and Expo events in Texas. Over the years I've been able to
talk with Richard Kiel about "Eegah!" and "Human Duplicators",
Mark Goddard about his being an elementary school teacher in
Massachusetts, Dirk Benedict about cooking, and much more.
(ObDisclaimer: I've been a volunteer[1] for this show for several
years.) Sure, it's mostly just a big dealer's room with actors
signing autographs for money but it (pardon the volume) DOES NOT
PRETEND TO BE MORE THAN THAT.
What seems to frost the cookies of traditional SF fans is the
deceptive nature of Cre*ti*n Conventions and their ilk. They
claim to be "conventions" and this can poison the well for the
traditional SF conventions in the area. The Toy Show and Expo
is *not* an SF convention so it doesn't claim to be one!
Ben Stevens, the owner/promoter, is very supportive of the
traditional SF conventions in Dallas. He provides flyer tables
for anybody to use, provides free fanclub tables to area SF
groups, and routinely donates excess movie promo material to
area SF groups for their own members or purposes.
[1] I do it because it's fun, because I get to interact with the
guests at length, and we get (mostly) free autographs. It would
only be "work" if I wasn't having a blast doing it, I suppose.
--
My dshe...@netcom.com address will be shut down on 9/30.
Please send all future mail to (ed3 at panix dot com) and
update your address books accordingly. (Thanks.)
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <soobq4...@corp.supernews.com>, "Paula Lieberman"
> <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> wrote:
>
> > Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> wrote in message
> > news:kare-05080...@c797629-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com...
> > > In article <398bb5ad...@news.mindspring.com>,
> > > kras...@mindspring.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > <paal@REMOVE_gis.net> typed
> > > >
> > > > >Glen's been selling books, new and used, at conventions for a -long-
> > time,
> > > > >and there are many many more books than the ones he's written, that he
> > has
> > > > >for sale.
> > > > >
> > > > Yup. And, as usual, he burnt me large bucks for a brit paperback at
> > > > RiverCon this year. ("Fire & Hemlock", which i tried to get Kate to
> > > > read and she seems to have bogged down about twenty pages in...)
> >
> > > Yeah, me too. DARK LORD OF DERKHOLM.which doesn't seem to be available in
> > > the US, but was worth every penny.
> >
> > Huh? It's a YA hardcover over here, I forget which publisher.
>
> Well, Amazon.com didn't seem to know this when I looked for it.
When was that?
From Amazon:
Dark Lord of Derkholm, by Diana Wynne Jones
List Price: $16.00
Our Price: $14.40
You Save: $1.60 (10%)
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.
Reading level: Young Adult
Hardcover - 352 pages (October 1998)
Greenwillow; ISBN: 0688160042 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.36 x 9.31 x
6.33
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 57,390
Avg. Customer Review: (3 1/2 stars)
Number of Reviews: 15
--
Lis Carey
This post is copyright 2000 by Elisabeth Carey. Permission to
insert links when displaying it is available for $100. Use in
mike weber
typed
>Quoth p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) on 4 Aug 2000 02:53:38 GMT:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:36:28 GMT,
>> Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Nice little mutual admiration society you've got there.
>>
>>
>>Yes! And we like it a lot.
>
>Except on alternate Fridays, when we get far nastier than poor Flinx
>is capable of being in the same state as.
I love the smell of fried Flinx in the morning.
mike weber
<dshe...@netcom6.netcom.com> typed
>[1] I do it because it's fun, because I get to interact with the
>guests at length, and we get (mostly) free autographs. It would
>only be "work" if I wasn't having a blast doing it, I suppose.
>
Remember the "definition of art" hoo hah?
Let me try to see if this angle on part of what i was thinking helps
-- "Art" is what you do because you *want* to (or, as many writers
have said, have no choice to do) -- *work* is what you do because you
have to buy tuna for the cat.
"Work" may well be "art" -- i.e., you'd have done it anyway, and
getting paid or otherwise recompensed is gravy...
mike weber
O'Brien) typed
>It's also worth noting that Amazon, while a pretty good resource,
>is far from infallible. While I don't usually find them to be
>wrong with claims that something is out of print, they are often
>mistaken when they claim that something is out of stock, at least
>in my experience. Or else they mean "out of stock at Amazon,"
>which is not what I mean by out of stock.
>
Generally, if Amazon knows that something exists at all, they will
have it listed as a special order item if they don't figure sales will
justify stocking it themselves -- Donna Barr's books and those from
two local small presses are carried this way.
However, i agree that they aren't the best source.
However, both Walden and B.Dalton find almost nothing IP by DWJ ewhen
they check their computers, either, in my experience.
>Too, you can always order Brit editions directly from Amazon UK.
>
It ain't that much more expensive to buy 'em from Glen when i see him
at a con. And the instant-gratification factor covers the difference
pretty well.
mike weber
<lis....@mediaone.net> typed
>Mary Kay Kare wrote:
>>
>> Well, Amazon.com didn't seem to know this when I looked for it.
>
>When was that?
>
>From Amazon:
>
>Dark Lord of Derkholm, by Diana Wynne Jones
Weird. I looked at Amazon earlier today and it wasn't listed *at
all*.
Mary Kay Kare
<lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Mary Kay Kare wrote:
> >
> > Well, Amazon.com didn't seem to know this when I looked for it.
>
> When was that?
>
> From Amazon:
>
> Dark Lord of Derkholm, by Diana Wynne Jones
> List Price: $16.00
> Our Price: $14.40
> You Save: $1.60 (10%)
>
Huh. I don't really remember, whenever it was that someone recommended it
o me. I do have a vague feeling it was a while ago. Or maybe it was just
in an alternate universe.
Paula Lieberman
news:398ce930...@news.mindspring.com...
> they check their computers, either, in my experience.
Neither of them has tended to get YA fantasy and science fiction.
> >Too, you can always order Brit editions directly from Amazon UK.
> >
> It ain't that much more expensive to buy 'em from Glen when i see him
> at a con. And the instant-gratification factor covers the difference
> pretty well.
If you get to a convention where Devra Langsam has a table, she carries
stuff like Diana Wynne Jones books. YA hardcovers, in particular, aren't
favorite items for most bookstores to carry. The Harry Potter stuff is an
exception, because it's bestseller book stuff.
Basically, you need to do things like follow the Locus list of forthcoming
books, and check Forthcoming Books (which usually is more likely to have
books in print, than what's coming out in the future, listed...) on an
by-author basis to see what's been published recently, and Books in Print to
see what's in print that's been out for more than a few months.
Paula Lieberman
news:8migh5$dmq$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> I was not apologising [gratuitous putdown deleted] ,
> Don't you fandom types understand sarcasm?
Not the particular variety you're using, and its style -- see below.
> The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
> that hardly encourage friendly reply
I think you're missing some key touchstones -- a high percentage of the
people in this particular forum came into it -already- being part of an
established community, with long-established sets of community values, and
familiarity with one another and one another's foibles and ways of
communications. E.g., when Elisabeth Carey and Mike Weber and and Patrick
Nielsen Hayden etc. post things here, I read them in light of years of
seeing their words on phosphor and conversations live. There are also
established conventions over terminology -- again, there's a
long-standing -community- in this forum, with a set of community values, and
a set of filters that the people who know one another, apply when reading
posts from one another.
Someone coming in without having lurked for a while first, or without
knowing any of the people in here from more than passing personal
acquaintance, and posting with the blithe assumptions that -their-
particular words are going to be read with the same view of the universe and
values and interests and orientation that the person posting has, isn't
necessarily going to get the most appreciative reception. Particular, if
the person has a -different- set of values and view of the universe and
different interests, the reception may be an annoyed chorus in various
levels of stridency suggesting the the person who posted pay some attention
to what the forum is like, before posting, and what the community values
are, and either stay within the community scope, or go post in some other
mailing list more attuned to the poster's interests and perspectives.
There are a lot of trolls on the Internet, and slimeball spammers, and the
sheer number of -people- involved, and the level of deliberate noise, means
that people have less tolerance/willingness to cut some slack and be polite
beyond a certain point, to people who post without -apparently- caring about
the feel and orientations of the people in the forum they're posting to.
Max
<theF...@yahoo.com> said:
>I was not apologising lambiekins, Don't you fandom types understand sarcasm?
>The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
>that hardly encourage friendly reply
There's nothing innocent about cross posting to groups that have
nothing to do with your subject.
P Nielsen Hayden
>It's also worth noting that Amazon, while a pretty good resource,
>is far from infallible. While I don't usually find them to be
>wrong with claims that something is out of print, they are often
>mistaken when they claim that something is out of stock, at least
>in my experience. Or else they mean "out of stock at Amazon,"
>which is not what I mean by out of stock.
Right. I've more than once caught Amazon listing one of our titles as OS
when it was merely OS at Ingram, but available directly from us. And Amazon
(obviously) has a direct account with us. Mistakes happen.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
TheFlinx
Paula Lieberman wrote in message ...
>TheFlinx <theF...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:8migh5$dmq$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
>>
>> I was not apologising [gratuitous putdown deleted] ,
>
>
>> that hardly encourage friendly reply
>
So being elitist is a good thing?
>There are a lot of trolls on the Internet, and slimeball spammers, and the
>sheer number of -people- involved, and the level of deliberate noise, means
>that people have less tolerance/willingness to cut some slack and be polite
>beyond a certain point, to people who post without -apparently- caring
about
>the feel and orientations of the people in the forum they're posting to.
The only problem is that the original poster was none of those things he was
innocently trying to warn "fans" about what he saw as a rip-off, and you lot
got all nasty and cliquish with him.
TheFlinx
Max wrote in message ...>>I was not apologising lambiekins, Don't you fandom types understand
sarcasm?
>>The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
>>that hardly encourage friendly reply
>
>nothing to do with your subject.
Oh please, the poster was trying to reach people who go to SF media cons and
posted to your group who go to SF PRINT cons damn, burn the heretic at the
stake!
You people need to get over yourselves.
Alison Hopkins
TheFlinx wrote in message <8mjr5a$i3f$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
I go to media cons. I have been organising media (Trek, B5, whatever) cons
for twenty five years. I also, shock horror, Read Books. You, frankly, give
media fen a bad name, and I am ashamed of you. And totally dissociate myself
from anyone like you.
Ali
Vicki Rosenzweig
>
>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote in message ...
>
>>I'd love to excuse the hell out of you--I think it would markedly
>>improve your disposition--but it's not that easy. If you want to
>>apologize, not repeating the offense is a good first start. And
>>if you were a civilized human being, you might have called
>>someone you barely knew "honey" as a friendly thing (not my dialect,
>>but some people's), but you wouldn't have insisted on continuing when
>>Mary Kay made clear that she didn't appreciate it.
>
>I was not apologising lambiekins, Don't you fandom types understand sarcasm?
>The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
>that hardly encourage friendly reply
>
>
Yes, child, we understand sarcasm. Do you understand that it's not
sufficient to say "it's a joke, son" when it wasn't funny?
*plonk*
Kip Williams
>
> Max wrote in message ...
> >In message ID (<8migh5$dmq$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>) "TheFlinx"
> ><theF...@yahoo.com> said:
> >>The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
> >>that hardly encourage friendly reply
> >
> >There's nothing innocent about cross posting to groups that have
> >nothing to do with your subject.
>
> Oh please, the poster was trying to reach people who go to SF media cons and
> posted to your group who go to SF PRINT cons damn, burn the heretic at the
> stake!
>
> You people need to get over yourselves.
And you need to get over us, honey child sweet pea. Maybe this will
help: We concede defeat. You are just too smart for us, darling
dimples. Please consider the initial off-topic posting to be a foray
into enemy territory. And please tell yourself that it served its
purpose and showed us all to be a bunch of elitist snobs, who in
their evil way keep trying to tell you you're in the wrong place.
And tell yourself, sweet knees, that in responding to each and every
post as if we were part of a grand conspiracy against you
(regardless of how polite they may have been), that you did the
Right Thing.
Never mind that there are probably hundreds of people posting and
reading in here, and that you tangled with what... three of them?
That's a big enough sample, if you have faith that everything in
this world is directed against you. Everything that doesn't support
your claim is irrelevant, isn't it, my little crunch berry?
Just go on back to your pals, and tell them you have defeated the
dragon. Whatever you are accomplishing with your endless whining
posts, it's accomplished! Game over! Success! Huzzah for the
champeen! Let the room ring with your triumph until your parents
yell down for you to knock it off!
Then just leave, won't you? Oh, and don't forget to take your high
horse with you, honey bunny.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Rob Hansen
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>TheFlinx wrote in message <8mjr5a$i3f$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>>
>>Max wrote in message ...
>>>In message ID (<8migh5$dmq$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>) "TheFlinx"
>>><theF...@yahoo.com> said:
>>>
>>>>I was not apologising lambiekins, Don't you fandom types understand
>>sarcasm?
>>>>The RASFF group responded to an inocent cross-post with snooty responses
>>>>that hardly encourage friendly reply
>>>
>>>There's nothing innocent about cross posting to groups that have
>>>nothing to do with your subject.
>>
>>Oh please, the poster was trying to reach people who go to SF media cons
>and
>>posted to your group who go to SF PRINT cons damn, burn the heretic at the
>>stake!
>>
>>You people need to get over yourselves.
>>
>>
>
>I go to media cons. I have been organising media (Trek, B5, whatever) cons
>for twenty five years. I also, shock horror, Read Books. You, frankly, give
>media fen a bad name, and I am ashamed of you. And totally dissociate myself
>from anyone like you.
Quite. I don't even understand why any of you are still responding to
this nitwit.
--
Rob Hansen
=============================================
Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/